00:00I imagine a world where you didn't even
00:02know that something happened robot
00:04lawyers were fighting for you in the
00:05background and almost immediately they
00:07get you the refund or something back
00:09today we're talking about the
00:11fascinating intersection of Law and
00:14so the law is a set of rules that a
00:15group of people agree upon to regulate a
00:17specific region often through the
00:19application of penalties if people break
00:20such laws so for example in many regions
00:23it's against the rules to steal
00:25something from another person and if
00:26you're caught breaking such law well a
00:28penalty is applied but what happens when
00:30you don't have the resources to fight
00:32for your rights whether it's a major
00:33medical bill or a minor parking ticket
00:35even if you were in the right is it
00:37easier to just pay well Joshua browder's
00:40answer is do not pay he's built a
00:42thriving company off the same name that
00:44helps consumers fight corporations beat
00:46bureaucracy and Sue anyone at the Press
00:48of a button through the power of
00:50Technology do not pay has resolved over
00:512 million cases successfully and in this
00:54interview we get to hear from Browder
00:55himself about where he hopes to take the
00:57company including his first hand account
00:59of his recent plan to bring the robot
01:01lawyer into the physical courtroom
01:03you're not going to want to miss this
01:06as a reminder the content here is for
01:08informational purposes only should not
01:10be taken as legal business tax or
01:12investment advice or be used to evaluate
01:14any investment or security and is not
01:16directed at any investors or potential
01:18investors in any accz fund for more
01:21details please see acc.com disclosures
01:33I am so excited for this conversation
01:35today I've been seeing you post on
01:38Twitter I've been seeing news articles
01:39everywhere about what do not pay has
01:42been experimenting with and so we'll get
01:44into some of those timely topics but
01:47first let's start out with where do not
01:49pay originated so how to do not paid
01:51start and what really inspired this
01:54company so it's no secret that I'm a
01:56terrible driver and when I start the
01:58driving at age 18 I got about 30 parking
02:01tickets between the ages 18 and 20. in
02:04London and also when I moved here to
02:06study in college and I couldn't afford
02:09to pay these really expensive tickets
02:11and I learned something remarkable which
02:13is if you know the right things to say
02:14you can save a lot of money
02:16and I got this reputation among my
02:19family and friends as the person who can
02:21help with parking tickets and it wasn't
02:23long before people were just messaging
02:26me just pictures of their tickets they
02:28wouldn't even say anything I didn't want
02:29to copy and paste all of these documents
02:31and so I thought why not build an
02:33automated solution with templates where
02:36a user can select an option and then a
02:38defense is generated and sent to the
02:40right place and I really just did it for
02:42a few family and friends and I never
02:44could have imagined that it would go
02:45globally viral because people hate
02:47parking tickets and that's what made me
02:49realize that the idea of helping people
02:52with technology and consumer rights is
02:54bigger than just tickets and so I spent
02:56the past almost seven years now
02:58expanding do not pay from parking
03:01tickets to many other areas of the law
03:03well yes many other areas of the law
03:06your website has I think over a hundred
03:09different use cases or applications that
03:11you help your customers with and I just
03:14want to call out a few and get you to
03:15quickly explain in what this is how it
03:19works because I think many people are
03:21maybe familiar with do not pays parking
03:23ticket support things like crafting a
03:26cease and desist letter but let me just
03:28give you a few examples that I was
03:29surprised by so one of them that I saw
03:31on your website is free raffle tickets
03:34what does that mean so there's this
03:36obscure law in America that says that um
03:39you can enter any competition for free
03:41so you hear on the radio you can pay to
03:45enter but they always bury in the terms
03:47of service that if you mail an obscure
03:49latter to an obscure address you can
03:51enter for free so we've built a product
03:53that automates free entry into any
03:55competition so you just paste in the
03:57terms of service or you can even just
03:59choose from competitions that are bought
04:01scrapes on websites and it enters it for
04:04you for free and this is the thing with
04:06do not pay there are so many laws that
04:08help consumers that no one has the time
04:09to actually follow through with and
04:12that's a great job for technology and it
04:14empowers those people through technology
04:16right I feel like they're are people who
04:18know about these loopholes within
04:20Raffles for example but they're just
04:22manually entering into these things
04:24without the knowledge or without the
04:26support of Technology let's go through
04:27one or two more just to kind of give
04:30people an understanding of the vast
04:32range of areas that law can be applied
04:35one of them was egg donor rights what do
04:38you mean by that there are all these
04:40riots around egg donors and making sure
04:43you get uh compensation for expenses and
04:46things like that which is important and
04:48also on the other end
04:50um there's compensation opportunities
04:51for donating that sort of stuff
04:54um and we've automated kind of signing
04:56up for that uh if people need extra
04:58money it's a very controversial product
05:00but we're happy to give people more
05:02money I'm sure there are many
05:04controversial products that you
05:06facilitate what about this one this
05:08one's not so controversial but I thought
05:11find my lost pet every city or most
05:14cities have these forms where if your
05:16pet is lost you can fill it out and if
05:19if the pet is found on the street and it
05:21walks towards a flight fire station or a
05:23police officer they'll deal with it and
05:26then they will put it into the system to
05:28see if someone's reported it as lost and
05:30this is another area where people don't
05:32have time to fill in these obscure
05:33government forms the same is true for
05:35Airport Lost Property forms we've
05:37automated all of these Lost Property
05:39forms at major airports so do not pay is
05:41really about saving people time with
05:44obscure consumer rights laws and also
05:46government services yeah yeah I like
05:48that positioning and another positioning
05:49that I've heard you say is basically the
05:51general counsel for consumers and I love
05:53this idea where the average everyday
05:55person doesn't necessarily have the
05:57funds or the time to represent
06:00themselves effectively and you've been
06:01able to use technology to empower these
06:04folks so let's fast forward you started
06:06seven years ago where is do not pay now
06:08like how many customers are you
06:10servicing how many people are actually
06:12using these tools as you said as a
06:15general counsel so we've submitted over
06:17two million cases and we have hundreds
06:20of thousands of active subscribers at
06:22the moment what's really exciting is
06:23that a lot of this stuff is is not
06:25necessarily the Obscure products you
06:27mentioned but getting serious refunds
06:29from companies so refunds are our most
06:31popular product canceling subscriptions
06:34some gym memberships require you to send
06:37a signed letter and mail it to an
06:39address just to cancel suing robocallers
06:42getting discounts these kind of high
06:44ticket items that people don't have time
06:46to wait on hold for hours just to get a
06:49couple hundred dollar refund and so
06:52that's a good job for software as well
06:55more about that particular
06:56particulars where you are helping
06:58someone get a refund or get access to
07:00something where it typically would take
07:02hours of someone sitting on the phone
07:04how are you actually facilitating that
07:06with technology so our motto is the
07:08squeaky wheel gets the grace so if you
07:11are on a flight and the in-flight Wi-Fi
07:13doesn't work and you've paid it's now
07:14fifty dollars if a Trans Continental
07:17in-flight Wi-Fi and it doesn't work our
07:19software will generate a letter and send
07:21it off to United Airlines and it will
07:24cite FTC statutes and be really
07:26aggressive United will receive that
07:29letter and think it's not worth it and
07:31so 80 plus of the time they just grant
07:34the refund and that's what's amazing is
07:37just with a template letter we've
07:39managed to achieve all of this success
07:41over the past few years but what's
07:43really exciting is in the past kind of
07:45six months we're actually using more and
07:47more true AI versus decision tree
07:50templates tell me more about that this
07:53differential between maybe what people
07:54did in the past which was a human lawyer
07:57drafting up a letter to I'd say a second
08:00step which is using technology not
08:02necessarily AI but really to take
08:04different pieces that are necessary in
08:06crafting them almost like a template and
08:08then a third generation which is using
08:10AI which is not just a a template but
08:13really bringing in all of the prior
08:16examples for a particular letter and
08:19crafting something net new how do you
08:21think about which use cases require step
08:23one step two or step three or how are
08:26you assessing where to apply some of
08:27these new technologies so we started a
08:30step two and so what we did was we said
08:33well all of these letters that you had
08:35to pay a lawyer three hundred dollars
08:36for we're going to automate with
08:38document automation which is a very
08:40simple technology but it's something
08:42that hadn't be done for these types of
08:44letters we were doing what's really
08:46exciting about step three is that
08:48sometimes the companies respond and the
08:50governments respond and step three with
08:53AI allows us to respond back instantly
08:55so instead of helping someone with a
08:58hundred dollar dispute with Comcast we
09:00can now work on ten thousand dollar
09:02medical bills because Comcast or United
09:05might let that hundred dollars go but no
09:07hospital is just going to let ten
09:10thousand dollars go just because of one
09:11letter and so you really have to have
09:13that conversation back and forth and so
09:16what we're working on now is actually
09:19um on medical bills specifically and I
09:20can go into the laws we're using around
09:22that that will be kind of our first
09:26um in do not pay please tell me more
09:28about that because something that I
09:30would love for you to address is is the
09:32fact that some people may push back on
09:35this idea of having a robot lawyer
09:37because some people might say that
09:39actually having a mediocre lawyer or a
09:42bad lawyer is worse than having no
09:43lawyer or representation because you
09:45might get yourself into more trouble I
09:47don't know if that's the case with the
09:48medical bill example but tell me more
09:50about how you're using these AIS to
09:53really have this back and forth and
09:55ensure that it is the high quality back
09:57and forth that you would want if you
09:59were actually enlisting counsel do not
10:02pay as automated consumer rights and
10:04unfortunately lawyers don't typically
10:06get out of that for consumer rights I I
10:08said that on Twitter that they don't get
10:10out bad at all and everyone's crazy
10:12because they're saying I once sued a
10:14client for 500 I get out of bed for
10:16concealer rights and so most lawyers
10:18most lawyers focus on serious issues and
10:21because of that these corporations
10:23governments know that people can't fight
10:26back and these issues aren't rocket
10:28science if the in-flight Wi-Fi didn't
10:30work you're entitled to a refund and
10:32there's very little that technology can
10:34do to change your case and so it's
10:36really about just jumping through the
10:37Hoops saying the form letter and sending
10:40off to the right place with medical
10:42bills we haven't yet launched it and
10:43we're testing it and we're trying to be
10:45very thorough to make sure it's it's
10:47accurate before we launch it but the way
10:49it works is um there's something called
10:51the no surprises act which is a brand
10:53new law passed in 2022 and it requires
10:56hospitals to do two things the first is
10:59to publish that process and a lot of
11:02these hospitals when they were complying
11:04with the law they published their prices
11:06in like obscure PDFs and Excel documents
11:08on their website and so what we've done
11:11is we've had GPT scrape all of these
11:13websites create a master XL of 1.4
11:17million rows because they don't name
11:19these treatments properly they just put
11:21obscure codes and standardize it among
11:24all hospitals in the US so that's the
11:26first step then the second step is this
11:28law requires hospitals to provide a good
11:31faith to go Association to provide
11:33discounts on medical bills and so the
11:36way it works is say you upload a bill it
11:39takes what's in the bill itemized
11:41Compares it to this master list of
11:43nearby hospitals offering the same
11:45treatment and if any item is more
11:47expensive than a similar hospital it
11:50crafts it in this latter to say that I'm
11:52asking for a good faith discount because
11:54a similar hospital is offering a
11:56treatment at a cheaper rate and it's not
11:58even a different hospital sometimes the
12:00same hospital is offering a treatment
12:02but for insurance it's like 50 of the
12:05cost if you're paying the cash price and
12:08so all of this stuff is not rocket
12:10science you can have a lot of impact
12:11with just a latter and a lot of lawyers
12:14say well if you're being accused of a
12:15serious crime maybe AI is not a good
12:18idea and I think that's true but
12:20certainly for fighting back against
12:21corporations we haven't seen much go
12:24wrong and I think it can be a net
12:26positive for people yeah I want to get
12:28into this further conversation around
12:30what AI can and can't do and also your
12:32Venture into the physical courtroom but
12:34I think what you called out there is so
12:36important which is just in many cases we
12:39would hope that the law is applied
12:41uniformly and that it's applied in a
12:43seamless way where you don't have
12:46disparities in information but the
12:48example you gave is is perfect in
12:50illustrating that sometimes it is just
12:52having access to counsel or sometimes it
12:55is just having access to certain pieces
12:56of information to know what laws exist
12:58or what laws don't exist or in the case
13:00of in-flight Wi-Fi like you're right if
13:02something doesn't work you should very
13:04easily be able to get your money back
13:07and so with that said I want to
13:10understand from you more about how
13:12you're thinking about evolving the
13:15different services that you offer I mean
13:17you already offer as I mentioned 100
13:18things on your website so how how did
13:20you decide for example next up is
13:23medical bills we're addressing that or
13:25how do you decide whether oh actually we
13:26want to go into the physical courtroom
13:27like what are you doing to understand
13:29where your priorities should be we're
13:32just trying to create value for people
13:33so we look very carefully about the
13:36average amount that do not pay customer
13:38saves on a yearly basis and we're trying
13:40to 10x that so instead of it being a few
13:42hundred dollars we a single medical bill
13:45could be ten thousand dollars and is
13:47where I think AI comes in really raising
13:49the value of the cases that the robot
13:52lawyer can pursue we've tried things
13:54that haven't worked well because it's
13:55too emotional AI is not too good at
13:58dealing with emotions so many years ago
14:00actually before I turned do not pay into
14:01a business I tried to use do not pay for
14:04Asylum like to automate the Asylum
14:06process but with these cases sometimes
14:08people are crying in the courtroom and
14:11that's something that software can never
14:12really touch because you need the human
14:14touch in those sorts of cases that's
14:17fascinating when you're talking about
14:18the Asylum case for example you're
14:20saying people need to go into the
14:21courtroom and vouch for themselves is
14:23that what you're referring to yeah and
14:25it's all about emotion it's about the
14:27judges and of course there's a body of
14:29law that they rely on but it's beyond
14:31the paperwork with a bill or with United
14:34Airlines it's really about the paperwork
14:36but once you start getting into emotions
14:38like real divorce cases is another
14:40example they have to have like Marshals
14:43in the courtroom because people might
14:44even fight in the courtroom if they
14:45weren't there and those sorts of cases
14:47says can't really be touched by software
14:49the corporations that you're fighting
14:51against how have you seen them respond
14:54to the work that you're doing has there
14:56been a pushback from these companies
14:59saying no no no like you're you're kind
15:00of messing with the system that we've
15:03built you're giving people information
15:04or access to things that we kind of
15:06banked on them not having access to it's
15:09an alms race so we saw this from the
15:12very beginning at do not pay where we
15:14had Bots do clicking on big company
15:16websites and they would have anti-bots
15:18to try and identify our Bots and shut
15:20them down and the way we got around that
15:22is we have the do not pay app and it
15:24actually uses the IP of the user so it's
15:27like a it's almost like lots of
15:29distributed nodes fighting these
15:31companies and they haven't been able to
15:33stop that on the AI front the big
15:35companies are using AI now to stop
15:38consumers even outside of do not pay and
15:41that's one of the things I think is sad
15:42about new technology it typically gets
15:45in the hands of massive corporations and
15:47governments fast so our role is give
15:50power to the people first so one example
15:52is we have a bot that we're using
15:54internally to negotiate Comcast bills
15:56there's Comcast have an online chat and
15:59it generates these instant responses to
16:01chat with Comcast and it's obvious that
16:03Comcast is already using Ai and so our
16:06AI is chatting with Comcast Ai and on
16:09the negative side it's it's kind of sad
16:11that consumers had to chat with AI to
16:13get refunds on the positive side at
16:16least now the AI is doing the work on
16:17both sides and saving the humans from
16:20the bureaucracy and are you finding that
16:22you are able to keep your AI up with the
16:26AIS that are written by Comcast for
16:28example where they are actually winning
16:30those battles yes and I think it's two
16:32reasons the first is that um I feel like
16:34I have the best job in the world and our
16:36team is way more motivated than the
16:38average big company engineer and then
16:40the second reason is the kind of drop in
16:42the bucket do not pay has helped a lot
16:45of people but if you kind of divide our
16:47use cases by our customers and the
16:49number of companies out there it's just
16:51a small tax that they're having to pay
16:53maybe if we one day get to 50 of their
16:55revenue they'll actually care properly
16:57but at that point it will be so kind of
16:59huge that we'll have other issues to
17:01worry about I mean that'll be a good
17:03problem to have but I think it's
17:05actually a great question this idea of
17:07if you are able to expand and really
17:10give consumers the legal counsel that
17:14they need or in this case like to be
17:16able to fight back against fines or
17:18charges that they shouldn't be paying if
17:20that can expand or scale to a
17:22substantial part of the market won't
17:25these companies have to rethink the way
17:27their businesses work won't new laws
17:29have to be written I mean one simple
17:31example of this that I think of is
17:32parking tickets where up until the
17:35pandemic you could kind of count on the
17:37fact that if you went and fought your
17:39parking ticket most people wouldn't
17:41bother with this but if you did the
17:43police officer might not even show up
17:44but then when covet hit all of these
17:46parking ticket court cases were online
17:49and that was a totally new Dynamic more
17:51police officers are showing up more
17:53people are showing up to fight their
17:54cases and so the change in the system
17:56required people to to rethink like are
17:59we doing this properly and so have you
18:01seen that at all are you expecting that
18:02where companies are going to have to
18:04rethink the way that they're engaging
18:06with customers yeah I think this is one
18:08of the biggest risks to do not pay what
18:10if all the problems in America get
18:15um America I mean it sounds hypocritical
18:17with my accent but America has a lot of
18:19work to be done and I think it will take
18:21a long time before everything is perfect
18:23and if it is we'll all be living such a
18:26good life on the courtroom front it's
18:28really interesting because I think covid
18:30has accelerated the legal industry by 20
18:33years a lot of the things stopping a
18:35company like do not pay were these
18:36bottlenecks that were introduced
18:38sometimes over a hundred years ago like
18:41you have to show up to fill in this form
18:43you have to have a wet signature for
18:45this document so one product we have is
18:47we automate the filing of 83b Elections
18:50which is an obscure tax form for startup
18:52employees and up until covert the IRS
18:56required a wet signature on that
18:58document but during covert they relaxed
19:00and said you can have a digital
19:01signature allowing us to build the
19:03product and the same is true with the
19:05zoom Court hearings and sometimes filing
19:07of documents online and that's actually
19:09moved us forward and what's exciting is
19:12we continue to be forward in 2023 with
19:15all these relaxed regulations but
19:17traffic tickets now are going back into
19:19call so we're having all the benefits
19:21with few of the disadvantages and is
19:24there pushback at all from the people
19:26who are facility dating these courtroom
19:28traffic ticket cases for example where
19:30they're like I don't really want to
19:31bring this back to the physical world
19:33like why can't we stipulate this
19:34digitally these judges are very old very
19:38anti-technology and even in the cases
19:41that do allow Zoom I'm a legal nerd so I
19:44watch a lot of like legal cases and view
19:46transcripts and they say things like
19:48nice of you to show up today when the
19:50attorney is on zoom and they say
19:52something like oh yeah I'm sorry I was
19:54out of state for another case and so
19:55they're already being prejudiced against
19:57Zoom um which which is not a positive
19:59outlook but I think it just shows how
20:02the Judiciary and the legal industry is
20:04being controlled by very old incumbents
20:07that might not have the most forward
20:09view on technology to a degree I'm not
20:12surprised but in a way I am surprised
20:13because the amazing thing about
20:15technology is it often automates or gets
20:18rid of the boring mundane aspects of a
20:21job and then you can imagine how if
20:22these judges didn't have to spend all
20:25day in court talking about parking
20:27ticket cases they could apply their
20:29wealth of knowledge to other maybe more
20:32intriguing interesting
20:34diverse cases but with that said I think
20:37this is actually the perfect segue I was
20:39going to wait a little bit but let's
20:40let's move on to what you were hoping to
20:43experiment with which is actually
20:45bringing your robot lawyer into a
20:48physical courtroom so let's start there
20:49what was this project yeah so in
20:53December of last year I made an offer on
20:56Twitter and I said that even if you lose
20:58do not pay we'll pay the ticket but we
21:00want to use AI to represent you where
21:04for a speeding ticket a user would go
21:06into the courtroom have these bone
21:09induction glasses which are basically
21:10like airpod version of glasses and the
21:13AI would whisper in their air telling
21:14them exactly what to say to get them out
21:16of that ticket and we had about 300
21:19people step forward and offer their
21:21cases and we accepted two of them but
21:23that's when things went crazy with the
21:25pushback from the legal industry so what
21:27did that pushback look like lawyers were
21:29writing letters to State Bar
21:31associations one lawyer called up every
21:33major State virus Association in all the
21:35major cities and California and another
21:38State Bar Association actually
21:39threatened us and they said that if you
21:41do it it's against the rules and we'll
21:43prosecute you for unauthorized practice
21:45of Law and what's specifically about
21:48that experiment was against the rules in
21:50their eyes the legal industry is very
21:52protectionist so to even become a lawyer
21:55you have to pass the bar exam take a
21:57test have a government stamp of approval
21:59even for something as minor as a traffic
22:01ticket and their view was that even
22:04though the laws weren't written they
22:06could never have imagined that when the
22:07laws were written in the 1800s and 1900s
22:10the AI would be practicing law this
22:12applied to that situation but our viewer
22:16do not pay was that it didn't apply to
22:17that situation because in these laws it
22:20says a person can't practice law without
22:22passing the bar and AI is not a person
22:25it's a technology and the person is just
22:27representing themselves with the help of
22:29AI but obviously don't seem to buy into
22:34perspective around you said this one
22:36person seemed very out of adamant very
22:38very emotional about this idea of
22:40bringing AI into the courtroom what do
22:42you think that is a reflection of like
22:45why was there such effort to stop this
22:48experiment lawyers love rules and they
22:51love accusing people of breaking the
22:53rules and I think they're scared of this
22:57um it's like the dinosaurs turned to
22:59stop the ice age lawyers really don't
23:01want this technology to move forward
23:03that much because they realize that a
23:05lot of their job is copying pasting
23:07documents not all lawyers are like that
23:09but some of them are and if AI can just
23:12do that and replace them it puts a lot
23:14of them out of work and so it's a
23:16combination of loving rules being
23:19worried about their profession and also
23:21just disliking these young kind of Cs
23:25students trying to take them down I'm
23:28not part of the legal establishment and
23:30I'm trying to fight against them so I
23:31also think there's like a cultural
23:33mismatch so use the term Ice Age there
23:35which makes me think that you think this
23:37is some somewhat inevitable like even
23:38though there is pushback even though you
23:40were threatened with six months of jail
23:41time that this may be a blip in the
23:45journey which eventually will result in
23:48technology being applied to the legal
23:50practice maybe in a substantial way is
23:52that an accurate depiction or how do you
23:54see this progressing past this one
23:56instance yeah I mean so a Colombian
23:59judge recently wrote one of their
24:00opinions using chat GPT lawyers
24:03themselves are using this technology but
24:05instead of passing the savings onto the
24:07client they're keeping the rates the
24:09same and just pocketing the savings for
24:11themselves and so our viewers do not pay
24:14is that customers deserve the savings
24:16they deserve to access their rights very
24:18cheaply and you can just cut out the
24:20middleman with these lawyers taking huge
24:23sums just to write a letter I think a
24:26fair pushback on that would be well
24:27that's true it'd be great if the savings
24:29were passed on to the consumer but does
24:31the consumer who has not passed the bar
24:33as an example have the discretion to
24:36understand if what the AI is returning
24:38is actually something that's going to
24:40represent them well so is that maybe
24:42even a fair question or how would you
24:44respond to that everyone points to when
24:46an AI makes a mistake but we forget that
24:49humans also make mistakes that the bar
24:52associations actually exist to police
24:53lawyers there are lots of lawyers who
24:55steal money from their clients most
24:57lawyers are expensive but they also
25:00steal money on top of that somewhat
25:01lawyers unfortunately have drug and
25:03alcohol problems and AI isn't perfect
25:06but at least it's objective and it can't
25:08get drunk the night before the case
25:10that's that's a good perspective I think
25:13another amazing thing that I've seen the
25:16technology can be cross-border as well
25:18so typically a lawyer is specialized in
25:21one very particular area maybe in one
25:23jurisdiction can you tell me a little
25:24bit more about how you're thinking about
25:26the potential for this technology to
25:28support people not just in your region
25:30but really anywhere yeah the benefit of
25:33AI is it can read 10 000 documents and
25:35produce an answer in seconds and not
25:37even the best human lawyer can do that
25:39so I think the example you're talking
25:41about is a consumer rights issue
25:43relating to a timeshare we had a elderly
25:46consumer in Boston they got suckered
25:49into a timeshare actually in Mexico and
25:51do not pay got them out of it because
25:53there's a five-day law in Mexico to
25:55cancel time share contracts and so
25:57things like that where you can help
25:59consumers in Boston for issues in Mexico
26:02most lawyers in Boston don't know about
26:04Mexican law but AI does because you can
26:07just feed it all the time share cases
26:08and it comes out with a way out and the
26:11same is true actually for Comcast these
26:13generic AI models like um Da Vinci from
26:15openai they're not actually that good at
26:18the law what we've had to do at do not
26:20pay is you feed it documents so we say
26:22we fed at all of these outcomes from the
26:25templates in many years of operating and
26:27and you say based on these thousand
26:29documents write X and then it becomes
26:32much better than just a generic usage of
26:35any of the models something that openai
26:37has also done though is had humans as
26:40part of the training process to really
26:42hone it in are you also doing that are
26:44you bringing in lawyers who are
26:46specialized in these areas to take a
26:48look at the output from your models to
26:50hone them in or improve them yeah we
26:52have some of the best lawyers in the
26:54country helping us like at Wilson
26:55sensini and other firms that the AI has
26:58been very problematic for us so there's
27:00really two problems with it the first is
27:02that it's dishonest so with Comcast for
27:05example it says things like I've had
27:08three Internet outages in the past 24
27:10hours and that might be a good way of
27:12getting a refund from Comcast but it's
27:14not true and it can Court liability
27:16issues and in court if you lie that's a
27:19crime and to send people to Jail the
27:22second issue is that it talks too much
27:25with Comcast or even in a courtroom
27:27there are some some questions and human
27:29speech that don't require a response
27:31it's like a rhetorical question so
27:33imagine the judge says something like
27:35um hold on let me take a look at the
27:37case the AI models would often say okay
27:40thank you and by the way I'm innocent
27:42for like these six reasons the judge
27:44will just get annoyed you have to build
27:46other AIS to decide whether to say
27:47something let alone what to say and so
27:50you have to really retrain it and also
27:52build these guard rails otherwise things
27:53get out of control that's so fascinating
27:55and I love hearing about the different
27:59AI models that are being built in
28:01various Industries because there are
28:03these like very specific nuances in a
28:06courtroom for example that you have to
28:08to consider but let's let's think about
28:10how things move on from here because you
28:12mentioned for example that you think
28:14that this is somewhat of an Ice Age like
28:16it's going to happen inevitably but what
28:18does that mean really does that mean
28:19that for example an AI needs to pass its
28:23own version of the bar and then it can
28:24represent people do you think that it'll
28:27just take another generation of people
28:28who are maybe more inclined to welcome
28:30technology into the space like what what
28:33will it take for this technology to
28:35really be maybe more so welcomed despite
28:38the legal industry being very
28:39protectionist they have a serious
28:41problem which is that over 80 percent of
28:43people who need legal help can't afford
28:45it and so these courts will have to
28:47eventually modernize and allow people to
28:49have their AI assistance helping them in
28:51all sorts of cases my role of do not pay
28:54is starting with consumer rights and we
28:57have literally hundreds more products to
28:59build with AI and that's what we're
29:01focusing on at first but I think people
29:04will have assistance in courtrooms I
29:06think that consumer rights they'll have
29:08ai General councils sitting on their
29:10shoulder making sure that these
29:12companies aren't ripping them off and it
29:13will just create a more efficient world
29:15where companies with business models of
29:18kind of ripping off consumers I won't be
29:20able to continue because the AI will
29:22just Spam them with lawsuits and legal
29:25demands yeah do also think there's going
29:27to be a deflationary aspect of this you
29:31mentioned that different
29:33lawyers are already using Technologies
29:35like chat GPT to kind of get their work
29:38to the 80 level and then mastering it
29:40further do you think that naturally
29:41there will be different legal firms that
29:44take advantage of these Technologies and
29:46then can bring down their prices and
29:49then that will deflate the cost of Legal
29:51Services at large well it gets even
29:53better than that there are varying
29:55estimates but some estimates say that
29:57customer service costs make up 12 of
30:00total corporate spending if that goes to
30:03from 12 to 1 because United Airlines
30:05have an AI that handles all of their
30:07customer service there will be huge
30:09deflationary pressures and that's really
30:12exciting and that's how you can see AI
30:14lower prices of something that has
30:16nothing to do with AI how does airline
30:18tickets have to do with chat GPT that's
30:20the connection and so it's not just
30:22legal services but also all services
30:24could be reduced just from the customer
30:26service angle I think that paints a very
30:29nice picture for consumers I wanna
30:32push you on some of the pushback that
30:35do not pay as received recently so I
30:37think there's maybe one thread in
30:39particular that's gone viral but I think
30:40some pushback is saying these Services
30:42aren't high quality but others are just
30:43saying you know this isn't really using
30:45the AI that I thought it was and do you
30:48just have any responses to maybe
30:49generally the pushback that the company
30:52has received especially as it's gotten
30:54more and more attention in recent weeks
30:56do not pay us in a transition from a
30:59template company to an AI company and
31:02you don't need AI to write a angry
31:05letter to your former landlord to
31:06request a security deposit refund it's
31:09just a question of the amount and uh
31:11sticking that into an angry letter so
31:13that the small claims court can see that
31:15you at least tried to ask something
31:16there's not much that can go wrong what
31:19these lawyers have been doing is they've
31:20been signing up creating fake cases and
31:23creating these dramatic scenarios so
31:26what they'll do is they'll say I had a
31:28hundred thousand security deposit why
31:30hasn't the AI supposed AI told me that
31:32uh the small claims limit is ten
31:35thousand dollars and the answer is
31:37because that's not a real case and if
31:39you create a fake case of course you're
31:41going to have a fake outcome and so
31:44there's nothing that can go what wrong
31:45with these consumer rights cases that
31:49um the true AI is coming and that's what
31:51we've been working on chat GPT is a
31:53brand new technology released in
31:55November of last year so I would just
31:57say to them relax it's not all that
31:59serious it's not the end of the world
32:01today an in-flight Wi-Fi refund I think
32:03that's fair but I think they would also
32:05say something along the lines of what I
32:07mentioned before which is just in some
32:09cases it can be worse to get mediocre
32:12legal counsel versus any at all and so
32:15is your goal here with do not pay
32:17currently while the technology is in the
32:18place that it is to just focus on these
32:20consumer rights issues where getting it
32:22wrong is actually doesn't really have
32:24much downside or how do you think about
32:26maybe the progression you mentioned
32:27ideally you 10x the value that do not
32:31pay offers to Consumers how do you think
32:32about taking it to that next level yes
32:35so we're trying to focus on consumer
32:36rights but consumer rights to your point
32:39could be a twenty thousand dollar
32:40medical bill refund and that creates
32:43real value for people my goal is to make
32:45it so the average person doesn't need to
32:47see a lawyer if you're being accused of
32:49burning down someone's house you should
32:52probably still see a lawyer but normal
32:53people don't deal with that they just
32:55deal with Comcast United their Hospital
32:58Etc and that's what we're trying to
33:00automate with do not pay the second
33:02thing is that we really want to test
33:03these AI products much more so when they
33:07deal with serious issues and also when
33:09it's not deterministic technology so
33:11going back to this feeding ticket one
33:13member of the do not pay team actually
33:15has a speeding ticket case coming up and
33:18we're thinking that we can get around
33:19all of these unauthorized practices of
33:21law rules if they're representing
33:22themselves using technology they've
33:25created and so we're looking to push
33:27forward be via responsible by testing
33:30everything before releasing it and I
33:32would say that consumer rights is not
33:33rocket science and so far they haven't
33:36actually found someone who's actually
33:37where something's gone wrong it's all
33:40have been it's been these lawyers coming
33:41out with theoretical problems but people
33:44really need help and Technology can help
33:45them I want to ask maybe a far-fetched
33:53this new technology AI in particular
33:56reshaping the legal landscape and as an
33:59example of this like when might a robot
34:01lawyer actually write law that governs
34:04the implementation of AI within law like
34:07that seems like it hasn't happened yet
34:09but something that maybe is inevitable I
34:12think in the next year it's already
34:13secretly writing laws a lot of laws
34:16originate from an overworked staffer in
34:18Congress and I'm sure it's 2 am they
34:21need to finish it and they're probably
34:22typing in chat GPT asking asking it to
34:25uh help them a bit and so I'm sure in
34:28the next year that's going to happen in
34:30the future I think a lot more court
34:32systems will be automated and tools like
34:35do not payable will help people so I
34:37think it's a very exciting time speak an
34:39exciting time I feel like do not pay has
34:41done an excellent job of kind of keeping
34:44up with the times and so something I saw
34:46you build recently is the chat GPT
34:48extension which you can basically
34:51understand the terms and conditions of a
34:53website more effectively so how are you
34:55thinking about the gaps that still exist
34:58for consumers and maybe what other
35:00opportunities there are to give
35:01consumers their rights back when new
35:04technology comes out we think how can it
35:06help people and times and conditions is
35:07a great example because people can't
35:09understand the changes being made what
35:12they're giving up so this is actually
35:14our first public product relating to
35:16True AI where you can paste in any terms
35:18and conditions upload a document
35:20including leases and it will go through
35:22and tell you all the things that are
35:24non-standard and also things you should
35:27watch out for and that's really
35:28important because people don't have time
35:30to read 100 page document which is what
35:33are some of the some of these leases are
35:34especially in New York and so that can
35:37be really helpful really we're trying to
35:39be like David and David versus go life
35:41so the AI can turn David into Goliath
35:44versus Goliath and help Ordinary People
35:46something that's coming up in my mind as
35:50you're speaking is just a question
35:52around why the law is so complex and
35:55maybe this is such a silly question
35:56because there's Nuance to life and
35:58therefore there's Nuance to law but why
36:01are so many laws a hundred pages long
36:04that no regular consumer can actually
36:06read through and understand like should
36:08it not just be a rule system that you
36:11could even effectuate through code for
36:13example I think there's a lot of
36:15lobbying that goes on but the big
36:17companies spend huge amounts of money
36:19shutting consumers out of their rights
36:21and every year it seems to get worse
36:23there are lots of positive laws that
36:25have come out like the CCPA and other
36:28laws around that but I think big
36:30companies have a lot of influence in
36:31creating the laws and one area that I'm
36:34worried about is anti-ai laws so one
36:36could imagine a law that says that no
36:38Bots are allowed unless they say they're
36:40a bot and you're already seeing
36:42companies Implement these policies and
36:45that could easily be a law I could yeah
36:47imagine members of Congress signing up
36:50for that idea and that would hurt a lot
36:52of consumer rights and automated systems
36:54helping people what makes you think that
36:56people will actually Implement a law
36:59like that or are there other rules that
37:01you see on the horizon based on your
37:03experiences with companies with lawyers
37:05who are pushing back against some of
37:07this new technology the fairer when any
37:10technology comes out is huge and it
37:12doesn't help that people like me are
37:14stirring things up and fear creates
37:16action on behalf of governments and big
37:18companies and so that's very worrying
37:20the good news is that there are a lot of
37:22things in the law we have over 100 Years
37:24of law to deal with that if you jump
37:27through the right hoop and follow the
37:29correct processes you can get results
37:30like one thing we automate is credit
37:34report disputes and they say that if you
37:37submit a correct letter and assigned in
37:39the correct way and all of this stuff
37:41you can dispute something on a credit
37:43report and this allows us to kind of get
37:45old or inaccurate items off people's
37:48reports and even if it's coming from Ai
37:50and we have to tell the big company that
37:53this was written by AI it's not going to
37:55be influenced they still have to respond
37:56to that letter and so there's all these
37:59rights that people have and I don't
38:01think that they can strip them all away
38:02with one law but it is worrying about
38:04where where kind of Congress is heading
38:08yeah I love that you said or you
38:10mentioned that you like stirring the pot
38:12I want to ask you specifically about
38:14within the experiment that you were
38:16trying to enter the physical courtroom
38:19with your robot lawyer you also were
38:21pushing to enter specifically the
38:24Supreme Court and you tweeted about
38:26offering someone a million dollars who
38:28happened to have an upcoming court case
38:30that was willing to wear air pods to
38:32kind of circumvent that idea of bringing
38:34the AI into the courtroom through that
38:38what made you want to push for that I
38:41think it would show everyone that AI is
38:44nothing to be scared of and it's
38:46actually pretty good at understanding
38:48lots of documents AI even passed the bar
38:51exam or a portion of the bar exam and so
38:53it is better than some lawyers
38:56um and if it was brought in the Supreme
38:57Court and all of the little cases we
38:59were dealing with like traffic tickets
39:01and um consumer rights disputes people
39:04would think that it could help them on
39:06the smaller stuff I didn't expect any
39:08lawyers to accept our offer we got lower
39:11court lawyers except our offer but no
39:12one at the Supreme Court but it was a
39:14serious offer and if you know anyone
39:17well I'm curious to hear what you're
39:19hearing from the lawyers who are
39:21supportive because we've kind of talked
39:22about the pushback from the legal world
39:25that is not in support of some of these
39:28ideas and some of this technology but it
39:30does sound like there are people on
39:31board and also people who are using some
39:33of this technology today so what are you
39:35hearing from that side of the spectrum
39:37most lawyers are supportive because
39:39they're arguing serious cases around
39:41human rights and other issues that don't
39:44really impact consumer rights and so
39:46there's a judge I talked to in San Diego
39:48called Von Campos we talk a lot about
39:51cases where people can't represent
39:53themselves and they don't have an
39:54attorney and how technology can help
39:56them and so just talking to a lot of the
39:59good lawyers gives me hope that things
40:02yeah I'm very excited to see how this
40:04progresses especially because the thing
40:06that's so wonderful about technology is
40:08that it improves across the board so as
40:11we get more court cases as these models
40:13improve they're not improving on a
40:16single case basis like a lawyer they go
40:18they represent someone they learn
40:19something it's ingesting all of this
40:22information and improving with every
40:24case that is fed into into the model so
40:27I guess as we look towards you know not
40:29just one year from now but maybe five 10
40:3115 years from now anything else you'd
40:34like to add about where the future of
40:36law might go and how technology may be
40:39involved in that future yeah I think
40:41there will be instant class actions so
40:44right now the way class actions work is
40:46imagine a big cryptocurrency exchange
40:48steals all the money imagine
40:51well it's happened many times years of
40:54bankruptcy and class actions drag it out
40:57and then almost 10 years later someone
40:59gets a check for like twenty dollars and
41:01that's what happens with any wrongdoing
41:03the only people that win are the lawyers
41:05in the future I imagine a world where
41:07you didn't even know that something
41:09happened robot lawyers were fighting for
41:11you in the background and almost
41:13immediately they get you the refund or
41:15something back and I think it will
41:17create a more just world because the bad
41:19people know that if they do something
41:20wrong it might take them 10 years if if
41:23ever that they'll have to pay up but
41:26with enough kind of pressure and
41:27Technology it can create a wild where
41:30consumers fight back almost instantly so
41:32I'm excited about that you know one
41:34example that I loved from your social
41:36media was people who can get money from
41:39spam calls I feel like that's just such
41:41a great Exemplar of all of us get these
41:45goddamn spam calls all the time they're
41:48really frustrating and you can't really
41:50do much about them or at least up until
41:52now but you've set up a product where
41:54you can actually not just stop them but
41:57potentially make money off of them yeah
41:59so there's an obscure 1991 law called
42:01the telephone on consumer protection act
42:03that allows you to sue these spam
42:05callers for one thousand five hundred
42:07dollars a call if you're on the federal
42:09do not call list so what the product
42:11will do is it will sign you up to the Do
42:14Not Call list with a bot if you're not
42:15already on it and then the next time you
42:17get a call you can pick up and um to the
42:21point of using cool technology to
42:23benefit consumers these um spam callers
42:26they hide behind fake names and fake
42:28businesses and they don't tell you who
42:30they are but when they try and sell you
42:32something we've built a trap and what
42:34the Trap does is uh it's a credit card
42:36and you can give them the card number
42:38and when they try and charge you for
42:40something it gets their name phone
42:42number business address business name
42:45and uses all of those details to sue
42:47them for the one thousand five hundred
42:50this morning that I'm doing the case for
42:52and we've had users who it's basically
42:54their full-time job suing spam callers
42:57or one user even paid her for a new roof
42:59for their house with the money they made
43:01from suing these callers so just things
43:04like that can be easily automated with
43:05technology and it's not just AI with
43:07fintech if you have these credit cards
43:10that can get all their information
43:11whatever it takes will use it to help
43:15that's great and yes I think I think
43:17what we mentioned several times here is
43:19important AI doesn't necessarily need to
43:21be the technological solution but on
43:24this idea of Technology
43:26why haven't there really been many
43:28companies who have developed these
43:30systems to fight back for the consumer I
43:33know there are some for example I know
43:36technology companies that will like help
43:38you write a will or like help manage
43:40your estate planning things like that
43:42but it doesn't really feel like there's
43:44been a company that has tackled this
43:47with the scope also that do not pay is
43:50addressing and so has there been a
43:52fundamental technology shift or what is
43:53enabling do not pay to really tackle
43:55this in the way that it is when I
43:59Andreessen Horowitz was was my first
44:01precede investor and I made a deal with
44:03them which is I don't have to drop out
44:05of school I can stay at Stanford and
44:08they would invest and I had other offers
44:11but I decided to go with them because
44:12they gave me that deal and that allowed
44:14me to really take time to develop the
44:16right strategy and with any idea it
44:19seems obvious that something like do not
44:20pay should exist why haven't people done
44:22it before and why aren't people doing it
44:24now and the reason that I develop by
44:27taking it slightly slower at the
44:28beginning was that do not pay is only
44:31successful because it's a horizontal
44:32company that our average person unless
44:35you're a bad driver like me only gets a
44:37parking ticket once a year and so you
44:39can't be able to build a real company
44:40around that and so because we've gone
44:42horizontal and done all of these use
44:44cases over time it's allowed us to build
44:46a retentive customer base which makes it
44:48a successful company but that's taken
44:51seven years and I see do not do not pay
44:53as my life's work so I think it was this
44:55unique insight about being horizontal
44:57plus the effort of seven years to
44:59actually kind of build it out that has
45:01allowed us to be unique and there are
45:03companies like even offered by lawyers
45:06that allow you to get out of your
45:07tickets but there's no one trying to
45:09tackle all of consumer rights with the
45:11tools necessary where we're not even
45:13building individual products we're
45:15building tools to build products so that
45:17when something bad happens in two weeks
45:20we can come out with something to help
45:21people yeah the product cycle has been
45:23incredible and I as an SEO nerd I also
45:27dug into the different content that
45:30you've produced and it's it's so wide
45:32ranging and I love the idea idea that
45:34actually when you are that horizontal
45:36company you can do keyword research for
45:39example just to find out all the
45:41consumer search volume for issues
45:44they're facing and you can somewhat use
45:45that data to figure out okay this is the
45:48next feature the next product that we're
45:49going to build versus if you are
45:51constrained in a very specific area or
45:54use case you can't really expand in
45:56those ways or use that data to expand so
45:58I think that's great Josh anything else
46:00you want to leave listeners with about
46:02your your company or the recent
46:05experiments that you've been running and
46:07how those have gone we have some really
46:09exciting announcements coming including
46:11around in courtroom usage of AI awesome
46:14well I want to end off on just a fun
46:17little game because I know we've been
46:18talking a lot about the law and I did
46:21some research and found some very
46:23strange laws from around the country and
46:26I wanted to just probe you with these
46:28and see if you could guess accurately if
46:31they were in fact true or false if they
46:33are actual laws that exist oh no when I
46:36don't do well with the game the lawyers
46:38are going to go crazy they're going to
46:40use this as a proof point that you are
46:42not fit to reshape the legal system but
46:45there are truly obscure laws so
46:47the first one is true or false in
46:51donkeys cannot sleep in bathtubs
46:57I'm gonna say that's true
46:59you're right and the law was enacted in
47:021924 so that one is indeed true okay the
47:05next one is in Rhode Island coins cannot
47:12I'm gonna say that's false
47:14you got that right again but in fact
47:17that is a law in Hawaii which was
47:20enacted in 1847 so an old law I didn't
47:25guess that I just knew definitely
47:27okay next one is an Alabama
47:31you cannot have ice cream ice cream or
47:34um I'm gonna say that's true so that
47:37one's false because it's not Alabama but
47:39it is I believe a law in Kentucky from
47:42the 1800s you know something as I did
47:44this research that was fascinating is
47:46just to see how many laws still exist
47:49from hundreds of years ago and I wonder
47:52actually if you know much about this
47:53Josh is there a process to like expire
47:57laws that no longer apply
47:59no there's not and the laws you
48:02mentioned probably aren't enforced but
48:03some of really obscure laws are still
48:06enforced like in Utah hotels can't give
48:08alcohol for free because of some
48:10religious laws that have existed for a
48:12while and so all of these obscure laws
48:14that's what makes America great every
48:16state has all of these different laws
48:17exactly we'll do one more which is in
48:20New Jersey customers are not allowed to
48:22pump their own gas oh that's true by a
48:25by a mile yeah that's true that's true
48:27and that was enacted in 1949 so I
48:30believe it's one of if not the only
48:32state where that's still true but you
48:34know you're not covering some of those
48:35laws but I think I would really
48:37encourage people to go to do not pay and
48:39look at the super wide range of things
48:42that you are supporting consumers with
48:44because it's really eye-opening yeah
48:46thank you all right Josh thank you so
48:48much for joining us today
48:51thanks for listening to the a16z podcast
48:53if you like this episode don't forget to
48:55subscribe here on YouTube to get our
48:57exclusive video content
48:58we'll see you next time
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