The Network State with Balaji Srinivasan

a16z2022-11-16

28K views|1 years ago

💫 Short Summary

The video delves into the impact of technology on societies, governance, and currencies, exploring concepts like the network state and the alignment of nations and states. Discussions range from the evolution of maps and nations to the influence of digital networks on societal dynamics. The segment also touches on the potential of decentralized blockchain technology and the emergence of digitally based nations. The video emphasizes the importance of collective action, community building, and moral innovation in navigating societal structures and power dynamics, ultimately envisioning a future where network states could reshape governance and societal norms.

✨ Highlights

📊 Transcript

✦

The impact of technology on ecosystems, currencies, and the concept of the network state.

00:36

Technology has reshaped individual lives and companies, leading to the creation of new digital companies.

The potential for technology to create new states and the changing landscape of governance.

The speaker's book, 'The Network State,' provides insights into the evolving role of technology in shaping societies and structures.

✦

The difference between nations and states is examined, with a nation defined by shared ancestry, culture, and language, and a state as an administrative unit.

02:58

The concept of a nation-state, where ethnic groups have their own government, is explored.

Stateless nations such as the Kurds and Catalonians are emphasized, lacking territory despite historical claims.

The abstract nature of maps is acknowledged, with borders often drawn arbitrarily.

The intricate relationship between ethnicity, government, and territory in defining nations and states is evaluated.

✦

Maps as a Digital Layer Above the Physical World.

05:49

Borders on a map do not always align with historical boundaries of language and culture.

Feedback loop between humans and borders leads to changes in how people live.

Current configurations of maps and nations are not permanent.

Kazakhstan's leader highlights potential chaos if every group had their own territory.

✦

Discussion on nation-states and civilization states.

09:49

Japan is cited as an example of a nation-state, while India is highlighted as a civilization state.

The concept of a civilization state is explained, focusing on India's diverse ethnic groups.

Centralization in the United States to foster a unified American identity is detailed, with figures like Teddy Roosevelt championing this cause.

The effects of centralization on perceptions of nation and state are examined, particularly its influence on individual identity and national unity.

✦

Discussion on the alignment or misalignment of the state and nation, with comparisons to labor and management in a small company.

12:31

Suggestion to refer to multinational corporations as 'multi-jurisdictional' or 'multi-state'.

Comparison of the United Nations to 'selected states', noting that not all nations are represented.

Highlighting of groups like the Kurds and Catalonians being excluded from the United Nations, with examples like Taiwan's relation to mainland China.

Exploration of the complexities of nation-states and their global representation.

✦

Exploring the misalignment of nations and states, with examples of countries in a gray zone of recognition.

14:18

Discussing the concept of a network state and the fluidity of boundaries.

Highlighting the emergence of new countries challenging traditional notions of nationhood.

Noting the shift from constants to variables in our age, such as fiat currency to cryptocurrency.

Emphasizing the importance of decentralization in currency innovation and contrasting with past attempts at founding new currencies.

✦

Evolution of decentralized blockchain technology and its contrast with traditional views on currency creation.

16:26

Satoshi Nakamoto introduced a new way of thinking through a message board post, leading to the creation of Bitcoin.

The analogy of the internet as a new continent emerging from the ocean is used to illustrate the shift towards spending more time in digital spaces.

Emphasis on the widespread migration of billions of people to the 'Cloud continent,' with a significant portion of the global population now engaging with technology for a significant portion of their daily lives.

✦

Comparison between the internet and the discovery of the Americas as new frontiers.

19:28

Individuals initially identifying based on European origins before adopting American identities draws parallels to potential new countries emerging on the internet.

Discussion on the disconnect between online presence and self-identity, including the concept of spending time in the 'cloud continent' without identifying as a cloud person.

Examples of the internet challenging the state, such as the Wall Street bets situation.

✦

The concept of Leviathan generalizes the idea of God, representing an all-powerful force that influences behavior.

21:55

Three Leviathans are introduced: God, State, and Network.

A footnote from a book written 200 years ago identifies three forces in the world as State, Church, and Culture.

Culture is defined as peer-to-peer interactions between people, separate from State and Church.

State and religion may claim authority over their people, but culture remains fundamentally different.

✦

Evolution of Spiritual Need in Modern Society.

24:58

Spiritual need is defined as the combination of material advancement, spiritual and moral aspects.

Shift from beliefs in God punishing wrongdoers to the state adopting that role is discussed, with examples from the Soviet Union and America.

The modern Leviathan is described as a network, with cryptocurrency and social networks as key components.

Emphasis is placed on how digital platforms like social networks now shape societal norms and behaviors.

✦

The debate on the most powerful force in the world, whether it is God, the US military, or encryption.

27:40

Political, moral, and cultural arguments surrounding the concept of the prime mover and conflicts between people of God and the state.

Examination of atheist, monotheist, and polytheist beliefs, along with anarchist, monostatist, and polystatist ideologies.

Exploration of individuals who believe their empire or state should dominate the world, contrasting with advocates for competitive government and digital nomadism.

✦

Analysis of belief systems in relation to digital currencies.

29:24

The segment introduces terms like coinist, polyclinist, and monomist to categorize different ideologies.

It discusses the clash between atheist monostatists and atheist statists, drawing parallels to historical conflicts such as the Crusades.

The speaker highlights how differing beliefs shape societal dynamics and compares clashes between governments and currencies.

The segment explores the intersection of beliefs, governance, and technology in the realm of cryptocurrency.

✦

The concept of 'force' in the network compared to traditional sources of authority.

31:39

'Network Leviathan' explained as the network enforces without perceived force like God or the state.

Fusion of different forms of authority, such as God and state, with examples like the American state.

Emergence of digitally based nations and implications of connecting the network to physical entities like drones and robots.

✦

The concept of digital power is discussed, distinguishing between analog soft power, analog hard power, digital soft power, and digital hard power.

34:44

Digital power influences people on a massive scale through tactics like de-platforming, freezing assets, and seizing accounts.

Soft power is described as probabilistic and persuasive, while hard power is deterministic and compelling.

The segment highlights the significant impact of digital punishments in countries like China, where individuals can be digitally 'unpersoned' and disconnected from the network, affecting their independence and daily activities.

✦

Impact of Internet and Digital Networks on Society.

36:26

Dependency on the internet and digital networks influences social interactions and work integration, with varying levels of consequences.

Wall Street bets and Amazon HQ2 exemplify the persuasive power of networks in challenging traditional systems and institutions.

Networks empower individuals to participate and compete globally, reshaping societal structures and power dynamics.

Recognizing the influence of networks is essential for navigating and reshaping societal structures.

✦

Characteristics of online communities and collective action.

40:35

Online communities often align around specific tribes, with members identifying through symbols and beliefs.

Some online communities have leadership, organizational structures, and even their own cryptocurrencies.

Engagement levels in most online communities are low, hindering effective collective action.

True collective action requires a higher level of engagement and alignment within a community.

✦

The importance of collective action in achieving group goals.

43:45

Group alignment is crucial, with each member contributing to the collective goal.

Progress is made efficiently through a focused direction and a combination of random and directed searches.

Aimless online behavior wastes intellectual energy and time, hindering productivity.

Collective action enhances the efficiency of group efforts, turning individual actions into impactful outcomes.

✦

Evolution of Collective Action in Online Interactions

44:10

Collective action involves mobilizing a large group of people for a common purpose, such as crowdfunding or making collective purchases.

The concept starts with getting a thousand people to like or buy something, which can be challenging.

Moving from simple actions like liking a tweet to more significant endeavors like crowdfunding territory together is the goal.

Different levels of engagement in online interactions are compared to dating websites, emphasizing the increasing commitment over time.

✦

Different types of communal living arrangements for digital nomads are discussed, including hacker houses and digital nomad hubs like Changu or Lisbon.

46:54

Benefits of communal living for digital nomads are highlighted, such as access to nicer accommodations and a sense of community.

The lack of total privacy in communal living arrangements is acknowledged.

The concept of a 'cloud formation' of digital nomads in a specific location is introduced, emphasizing the transient nature of some communities.

Shared connections among individuals are emphasized as important in digital nomad communities.

✦

Discussion on the concept of a densely connected subgraph in a social network.

49:39

The subgraph symbolizes a natural unit capable of self-government.

Importance of being early to AI, crypto, and dance emphasized by an early Skype engineer.

Analogy of a couple dancing well used to illustrate high alignment within a group.

Coordinated motion is pleasing and highlights the benefits of alignment.

✦

Importance of coordinated units in gaining respect from the outside world.

51:39

Communities gain respect through alignment and coordination in various fields such as AI, crypto, and social technologies.

The movie 'Transcendence' is used as an example of coordinating humans on a different level, beyond smartphones.

'Transcendence' is thought-provoking for its exploration of AI coordinating human beings and extending technology capabilities.

Discussion also includes dystopian themes in movies and the potential of Founders to navigate challenging situations.

✦

Ways in which many can become one: democracy, markets, and harmony.

54:41

Exploring network states and transitioning from digital collective unison to physical world actions.

Emphasizing the importance of understanding transitions without categorizing ideas into simplistic V1 or V2 buckets.

Touching on the concept of a cloud-first, land-last approach and misconceptions about digital versus physical existence in network states.

✦

Importance of Physical Presence in a Digital Network.

57:03

Emphasis on physical meetups, data centers, and community spaces within the network.

Examples of physical locations include embassies, Starbucks chains, and residential communities.

Questioning the necessity of diplomatic recognition for a network state.

Not all businesses need public recognition like Google or Facebook; smaller ventures are also valid options.

✦

The concept of Network Unions promotes collective action and support within a community.

59:30

Individuals start by forming small groups with a shared dream, eventually growing into a union.

The integration of cryptocurrency and Discord allows for tracking, leaderboards, and encouragement for participation.

Professional Guild of designers exemplifies the benefits of exchanging information and boosting each other.

Members can request boosts, give back to the community, and contribute capital or time for the collective support.

✦

The importance of online guilds and unions for collective action and protection against online attacks.

01:01:33

Standing up for individuals under unfair online scrutiny and supporting them collectively.

Creating digital structures like guilds for various professions, such as designers and electrical engineers.

Exploring the concept of a network archipelago where online communities transition into physical living arrangements.

Highlighting the significance of community flags as symbols of unity and purpose.

✦

The rise of group houses and hacker houses among the younger generation emphasizes building trust through meetups.

01:04:20

Larger scale communal living can involve the purchase of entire apartment buildings or small towns.

Collective action can turn seemingly worthless territories into valuable spaces, similar to how smart individuals moving to an area can increase property values.

Working together towards a common goal can transform an empty space into a thriving community, showcasing the power of collective action.

✦

The transformation of Chengdu into a thriving city through the creation of a co-working space and fiber line.

01:06:35

Chengdu's property values have surged, exceeding those of Singapore.

The significance of mass movements and their gradual evolution to widespread acceptance.

The United States' impact on global social experiments in democracy and capitalism.

The necessity of prerequisites like smartphone use and technological advancements for a movement to gain mass appeal.

✦

The importance of taking risks and learning from failures for startup societies.

01:08:55

Emphasis on experimentation and the value of reaching a network state.

Contrasting physical risks with financial risks in modern society.

Societal views on risk-taking, including the paradox between thrill-seeking and life-saving risks.

The speaker suggests a shift in societal values towards rewarding those who take risks for the greater good.

✦

Development of a vaccine through challenge trials utilizing military volunteers.

01:11:30

Proposal to expose healthy volunteers to the vaccine to gather data quickly and iterate on development.

Volunteers would be rewarded for risking their lives for the greater good.

Emphasis on the importance of accepting physical risks in scientific experiments.

Comparison drawn between volunteers in challenge trials and soldiers in battle.

✦

Discussion on the pathologization of taking risks and how it is viewed as exploiting individuals.

01:13:32

Speaker advocates for a different approach to risks through online communities and content creation.

Introduction of the concept of 'devotional content' and promoting causes similar to Bitcoin maximalists.

Reference to the movie Dallas Buyers Club, focusing on a man with HIV breaking the law to help others access life-saving drugs.

✦

The FDA's delays in drug approval have resulted in significant costs in lives and value.

01:18:17

Examples like the delayed approval of insulin showcase the impact of these delays.

Moving at the speed of software in the pharmaceutical industry is achievable by bypassing the FDA.

The FDA is viewed as a hindrance responsible for holding back trillions of dollars of value.

FDA delays in test approvals during the COVID-19 pandemic led to lack of preparedness and misinformation, showing limitations in the agency's approach to drug regulation.

✦

Delay in COVID testing in the U.S. was due to FDA emergency use authorization requirements.

01:19:15

Some labs conducted tests illegally due to the delay in authorization.

Regulatory harmonization led to unelected U.S. bureaucrats setting global regulations.

Small countries outsource regulation to FDA, SEC, and FAA, relying on U.S. approval for products.

Regulatory harmonization benefits big business and government, but raises concerns about control and oversight.

✦

FDA's regulatory power extends to bionic eyes and super soldier serum, hindering advancements.

01:21:50

Inhibiting myostatin can lead to natural muscle growth without side effects, comparable to caffeine intake.

Potential advancements are being held back by FDA regulations, sparking the need for a Network Union.

The Network Union operates as a guild or network archipelago, merging online and offline efforts for innovation.

✦

Importance of changes in law for reaching the highest level of network state with collective action capacity.

01:23:41

Examples include Wyoming's Dow law, El Salvador adopting Bitcoin as national currency, and Nevada's deal with the geiger Factory.

Emphasis on the need for large groups of motivated individuals to negotiate with mayors, governors, and presidents globally.

Focus on creating sanctuary cities for biomedicine, cryptocurrency, and self-driving cars, where federal law is not enforced, both within and outside the US.

✦

Critique of FDA's Lack of Accountability and Transparency.

01:27:02

The FDA is criticized for its lack of personal accountability and transparency compared to companies like Facebook.

Unaccountability in decision-making has led to delays in vaccine distribution during the pandemic, potentially causing unnecessary deaths.

The speaker suggests a reevaluation of the FDA's role and advocates for a more transparent and accountable regulatory system.

He proposes a restructured approach similar to transitioning to Bitcoin, promoting more efficient and transparent governance in regulatory bodies.

✦

Importance of regulated marketplace and role of regulators in providing quality ratings.

01:29:23

Mention of national and cloud-based international regulators like Amazon and eBay.

Comparison between state-based and cloud-based regulators in terms of efficiency and industry relationships.

State-based regulators can form a duopoly against customers, while cloud-based regulators maintain a cooperative relationship with industry players.

Examples include Uber and Airbnb as effective international regulators.

✦

Changes in competition between Uber and Lyft have shifted the regulatory landscape, giving consumers more choices in providers and regulators.

01:31:28

The concept of polycentric law stresses the importance of multiple regulators for market efficiency.

Regulators play a crucial role in upholding quality and safety standards, with competition among regulators benefiting consumers.

Bitcoin is evolving, being compared to digital gold with elements of both gold and fiat currency.

The V3 version of Bitcoin combines the strengths of previous versions to create a more advanced digital asset.

✦

Drawbacks of lack of regulation and excessive regulation in biomedicine industry.

01:35:06

Introduction of Cloud Regulators to promote competition and innovation.

Emphasis on reputable brands and competition among regulators.

Alternative routes for approvals outside the FDA like clear labs and compounding pharmacies.

Criticism of FDA's lack of accountability due to absence of democratic or market oversight mechanisms.

✦

Discussion on availability of biomedical treatments and experimental drugs outside the US.

01:36:31

Mention of Sanctuary cities diverging from federal laws on education, gun control, and marijuana.

Advocacy for innovation and sovereignty for life extension and advancements in transhumanism.

Highlighting limitations imposed by state regulators like the FDA and need for more freedom in medical research.

Emphasis on importance of exposure to scientific advancements for expanding understanding of potential breakthroughs.

✦

China's rapid infrastructure development outpaces the US in terms of speed and efficiency.

01:39:06

The segment emphasizes the need for transitioning to digital solutions for increased efficiency and reduced costs.

A comparison of train station construction timelines in China and the US illustrates the significant difference in innovation.

The disparity between physical and digital innovation prompts a reevaluation of what is achievable and challenges traditional beliefs in innovation.

✦

Discussion on democracy and authoritarianism.

01:41:33

Democracy is not synonymous with incompetence and historical examples like sortition in ancient Greece are explored.

Virtue and equality in leadership are emphasized as important aspects of governance.

Evolution of political systems over time is reflected upon, suggesting that current perspectives may be limited by a narrow view of history.

Viewers are prompted to consider alternative configurations of governance beyond current norms.

✦

Importance of challengers in driving innovation and lack of competition within societies.

01:44:37

US establishment faces conflicts with various entities and struggles to adapt due to lack of competition.

Need for challengers to improve societies exponentially is emphasized.

Discussion on founding versus inheriting in the context of US government and establishment, inefficiency attributed to lack of competition and reliance on inherited monopolies.

✦

Importance of legitimacy and competence in leadership transitions in family businesses.

01:47:02

Leaders should be selected based on competence, not just legitimacy, to ensure success.

Starting a business from scratch is crucial to prove competence, as demonstrated by Tesla and Mark Zuckerberg.

Nationalization of oil fields is used as an example to highlight the challenges of leadership transitions.

Establishing competence and success requires starting from scratch and building a business from the ground up.

✦

Critique of Established Institutions in Society.

01:49:24

Current institutions are outdated and run by heirs, such as the NYPD and FDA, which were organized from scratch and inherited over generations.

Tech journalists are criticized for lacking diversity and being controlled by old money, attacking self-made individuals.

The establishment is deemed lacking in legitimacy and competence, hindering innovation as it is not selected for founders.

Inefficiency and lack of scrutiny in the U.S. government's decision-making processes are highlighted, contrasting it with how Google operates.

✦

The current deployment of code and electoral promises without proper testing or accountability is flawed.

01:51:51

Electoral fraud is a result of politicians making promises for votes but not fulfilling them, making the voting process symbolic.

The push for a new system is being driven by the need to innovate and achieve sovereignty in areas like self-driving cars and drone delivery.

The concept of a network state stresses aligning online communities to drive innovation in the physical world.

Collaboration and coordination are essential for successful innovation in the ever-changing landscape.

✦

Importance of Content, Community, and Moral Justification in Tech.

01:53:39

Tech individuals often fail to justify their actions and undervalue moral reasoning.

Providing context and reasoning in limited spaces like social media interactions is crucial.

Moral differentiation from society, shaping the physical world through consensus using bits, is highlighted.

Dissatisfaction with current automobile safety standards is pushing for the development of self-driving cars.

✦

Retrofitting roads for self-driving cars requires new infrastructure designed specifically for autonomous vehicles.

01:56:30

Legacy systems pose challenges for implementing self-driving technology on existing roads.

Successful remote operations in closed environments, such as mining sites, demonstrate the potential of self-driving technology.

Self-driving cars may create their own regulatory framework, leading to societal change through targeted improvements.

Startups focusing on specific market niches illustrate the approach of addressing one moral issue at a time to drive broader societal change.

✦

Importance of building a true community over focusing on making money in the market.

01:59:20

Money should represent the community's debits and credits, not be the primary focus.

Technology, like the internet, should be used in moderation to avoid overuse.

Setting boundaries and offline hours can help communities create a more balanced approach to technology usage.

✦

Importance of coordinating and scheduling offline time within a community for societal adaptations and new conventions.

02:01:31

Emphasizes the significance of being offline during certain hours, with the idea that money runs out but moral premises do not.

As the community expands, offline time becomes more structured, impacting job expectations and societal norms.

Offline time is considered a valuable resource that doesn't deplete, creating a differentiated environment from the outside world.

Discusses the concept of treating sugar like cocaine and crowd-funding territory within an online community.

✦

The impact of high-sugar, processed foods at checkout lines on consumer behavior.

02:03:10

The importance of community resistance in providing healthier alternatives to default food choices.

Different dietary communities like keto, vegan, and carnivorous as avenues for improved health outcomes.

Joining dietary communities can lead to weight loss and better health.

Challenging societal norms around food choices for making more conscious decisions for individual well-being.

✦

The impact of morality on sugar consumption and the influence of the seven deadly sins on startups.

02:05:43

Social support and defense mechanisms play a role in reinforcing behaviors related to sugar consumption.

Successful startups often leverage the seven deadly sins to drive motivation, as highlighted by investor Mike Moritz.

Lack of self-control stemming from these sins can affect various aspects of life.

Large companies, like Netflix, can influence societal behaviors and desires beyond just fighting for survival.

✦

Discussion on companies exacerbating sins and pulling people away from self-control for profit.

02:08:19

Emphasis on the importance of community and the role of capitalism and democracy in conflict resolution.

Suggestion to build a startup society based on the seven cardinal virtues to counterbalance negative effects of current practices.

Caution against overindulgence in satisfying desires and advocacy for moral innovation in startup societies.

✦

The importance of moral innovation in driving technological progress.

02:11:06

Historical connection between moral and technical innovations is emphasized, stressing the necessity of concrete beliefs.

Building a community around a single commandment, such as 'sugar is bad,' can lead to further developments like continuous glucose monitoring.

Individuals can identify societal problems and work towards solutions by aligning personal beliefs with societal improvement.

The example of excessive gambling is used to illustrate the importance of aligning personal beliefs with societal progress.

✦

Formation of like-minded communities to challenge societal norms.

02:13:11

Discussion on creating network states or unions to address societal issues independently.

Emphasis on evidence over confidence in showcasing alternatives to current societal structures.

Requirements to become the President of the United States highlighted for its exclusivity globally.

✦

Limitations of the current presidential system in terms of reform options for regulatory agencies.

02:15:05

Comparison to trying to transform Blockbuster into Netflix or England into America, emphasizing the need for an alternative system.

Emphasis on gaining attention and power over winning elections, favoring influencers and actors skilled at convincing audiences.

Importance of creating a persona rather than possessing genuine leadership qualities within the system.

✦

Crypto technology enables the creation of machine-readable on-chain resumes that provide proof of actions taken.

02:17:31

These credentials are time-stamped, digitally signed, and visible on a public feed.

Individuals can filter society based on concrete evidence of their accomplishments, focusing on actions rather than just words.

Confidence in one's actions is highlighted as valuable, with the concept of evidence evolving to include on-chain proof.

Startups can leverage this technology to make a moral case for their initiatives and set an example for the world.

✦

Importance of Execution in Startup Success

02:19:55

Startups like Twitter and SpaceX started with underestimated ideas that evolved into billion-dollar companies.

Many startup ideas that may sound silly at first have the potential to make a significant impact.

Perseverance and adaptability are crucial in transforming initial concepts into successful ventures.

✦

Discussion on the concept of being a religious Christian without imposing values on society or eroding Christian culture.

02:22:03

Mention of 'Trad' individuals who pretend to be super traditional online.

Reference to modern Orthodox Judaism's attempt to blend traditional beliefs with modern world, leading to interesting trade-offs.

Testing the success of building a society by attracting immigrants.

Explanation on the US being a nation of immigrants and the reasons behind emigration from countries like Poland, India, Iran, China, and Germany.

✦

The segment explores the misconception that immigrants are financially wealthy and politically powerful.

02:24:37

Immigrants globally are often financially struggling and politically powerless, leading them to seek better opportunities elsewhere.

The segment uses Stalin as an example of someone who was powerful but not necessarily rich.

It distinguishes between being rich and being powerful, emphasizing that power can exist independently of wealth.

Those who control territory are considered powerful, regardless of their financial status.

✦

Disparity between the politically powerful and powerless in San Francisco's housing crisis.

02:28:15

Laws are often tailored to benefit the elite, leading to a lack of housing for the less powerful.

Distinction between the masses, elites, and the 'counter elite' such as tech individuals.

American establishments often passed down through generations, creating famous family dynasties.

Political office inheritance common, seen in families like the Kennedys and Bushes.

✦

Analysis of hereditary titles in running for office and the dynamic between old money and new money.

02:29:22

Exploration of elite versus counter-elite within the US establishment and prediction of a shift in power dynamics.

Highlighting the impact of technological shifts like remote work on competition between states and cities for talent.

Discussion on the history of immigration in the US and the fluctuation of population in different states over time.

Offering insights into societal trends and power structures based on the analysis.

✦

Shift towards centralization and federal government control over states' autonomy.

02:33:10

Individual U.S. states like Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Ohio had unique identities and cultures in the past.

Key figures like FDR played significant roles in repealing the 10th Amendment.

The consolidation of regulatory power at the federal level impacted areas such as commerce and healthcare.

✦

Discussion on internal competition between states like Florida and California and the gradual growth of Florida over decades.

02:34:55

Emphasis on the importance of internal competition for maintaining a healthy system and comparison of the polystatus model to the monocytus model.

Exploration of the historical cycle of uniting, dividing, chaos, reunification, and a honeymoon period, highlighting the helical theory of history.

Introduction of the concept of polycatism and the network state as potential future governance structures involving setting up new administrative units beyond existing states like California.

✦

Discussion on the concept of Wyoming and its population owning the state.

02:36:58

Potential implications of a network society with dispersed territories.

Historical examples of nation-state unification in Italy, France, and Germany.

The state's power to shape national identity through education and homogenization.

✦

Evolution of Nations through Historical Contracts and Independence.

02:39:28

Comparison between barter and debt as the initial economic system in nations is made, with the feedback effect explored.

The concept of city-states evolving into nation-states due to scale is exemplified by the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars.

San Marino is discussed as a small sovereign entity within Italy, maintaining its independence through historical contracts.

The complexity of princely states in India's independence is highlighted, with 562 states forming the Indian Union post-independence.

✦

Impact of artificial boundaries on conflict.

02:42:09

Shared culture is crucial for law agreement.

Examples of San Marino and Indian princely states.

U.S. political divisions create complex patterns.

Two nations within the U.S. lack shared beliefs.

✦

Increasing political polarization in the US.

02:45:31

Lack of cooperation between Democrats and Republicans is compared to tribal conflicts, with ideology becoming biological.

Individuals are now identifying more strongly with their political affiliation, leading to further division.

Marriages between Democrats and Republicans are rare, highlighting the deep divide.

The shift towards political affiliation as the primary identity is compared to the situation in Yugoslavia, raising concerns about potential civil conflict.

✦

Impact of Weak State in Iraq and Sectarian Violence

02:47:28

Sectarian violence in Iraq was exacerbated by the absence of a strong state, leading to conflicts between Sunni and Shiite groups influenced by external factors like Iran.

Political Tribalism in the United States

The division between Democrats and Republicans in the US reflects tribalism, with each group having their own symbols of allegiance, similar to flags.

Formation of Virtual Nation-States

The internet has facilitated the creation of virtual nation-states that go beyond traditional boundaries, allowing for global collaboration on a scale larger than individual countries.

✦

The concept of network states is explored in the video segment.

02:50:39

Network states have the ability to expand globally rapidly and compete with traditional nation states.

They combine aspects of city-states and nation-states for scalability and uniformity.

Network states may offer a new way of governance in a changing world where traditional beliefs and systems are evolving.

Individuals and groups worldwide could establish self-governing societies without war or elections to address societal issues and set an example for others.

✦

Discussion on scalability of wealth and reaching wider demographics.

02:51:40

Viewers encouraged to visit networkstate.com and tutor.com for more information.

Diversity and innovation within startup societies were showcased with various projects and initiatives.

The podcast episode ended with a reminder to subscribe for exclusive video content on YouTube.

00:00had somebody actually said oh I'm going

00:02to found a currency in 2007 2008. almost

00:04every VC would have looked to them like

00:07they had four eyes

00:11I had the absolute pleasure of talking

00:13to who I think is one of the most

00:15fascinating Minds on the planet right

00:17now that is biology Sweeney Boston who

00:19you might recognize as the former CTO of

00:21coinbase the former General partner at

00:23Andries and Horowitz he was also the

00:25co-founder of genetic testing company

00:26Council and earned.com which was

00:28acquired by coinbase an angel investor

00:31and many successful companies like deal

00:32replit ethereum and superhuman and today

00:35we brought him in to discuss his

00:36best-selling book the network state and

00:39as you can imagine when you talk to

00:41biology for three hours you can cover a

00:43lot of ground we cover the difference

00:44between a nation and a state how

00:46constants become variables the cloud

00:48continent the newest Leviathan digital

00:50power your identity stack calibrating

00:52risk polycentric law Cloud regulations

00:55building fast with atoms founding versus

00:57inheriting the powerful versus the

00:59powerless and just about everything in

01:02between so I hope you enjoy this

01:04conversation as much as I did the

01:07content here is for informational

01:08purposes only should not be taken as

01:10legal business tax or investment advice

01:12or be used to evaluate any investment or

01:15security and is not directed at any

01:16investors or potential investors in any

01:19a16z fund for more details BC a16z.com

01:23disclosures

01:24[Applause]

01:28[Music]

01:33all right we've got biology on the line

01:36balji thanks so much for being here

01:37great to be here I have to confess I am

01:39a biology fan I've probably consumed an

01:42unhealthy amount of biology content so

01:44very excited about this thank you for

01:46invading my brain I also read your book

01:49recently which is what we're going to be

01:50talking about today this idea of the

01:52network State and I also have to say

01:54that similar to when I learned about

01:57cryptocurrency it kind of forced me down

01:58this Rabbit Hole to reconcile what

02:01happened around me in in the outside

02:02world how monetary policy worked as an

02:05example the network State kind of did

02:07the same thing but with with other

02:09Concepts right like nation states what

02:11are these things so I'm excited to dive

02:13into that but I want to introduce the

02:15audience to a simple frame that I think

02:17was again an aha moment for me which is

02:19that technology has been able to reshape

02:23our lives at an individual level I think

02:25many people can understand that they can

02:26grasp that also at the company level

02:29right we've been able to start new

02:30companies that are digital it's also

02:32reshaped our ability to participate in

02:34that ecosystem and then more recently

02:36currencies as well right the network has

02:39changed change that and your book

02:41discusses how technology can actually

02:43potentially create new states very

02:45interesting concept and in order for us

02:48to dive into that why don't we start off

02:49with what we have today which are nation

02:53states so how would you define a nation

02:56and how would you define a state and how

02:58do those kind of interplay together I

03:00actually have this at the beginning of

03:01chapter five in the book and the thing

03:04is we hear the term nation state as a

03:08compound you know like uh you know the

03:10phrase really and we don't really give

03:12too much thought as to what it means but

03:15um it's useful to think about

03:17distinction between those two words

03:18because they're actually very different

03:19the nation that's like that comes from

03:22the same root as natality like the Latin

03:25like Nazis and so it's like common birth

03:27common descent so like the Japanese

03:29Nation they have shared ancestry shared

03:31culture going back hundreds you know of

03:33years and you know shared language all

03:36that type of stuff and then separate

03:38from that is the Steve which is the

03:40administrative unit that thin layer that

03:42sits over the nation okay and the state

03:45could be of you know the Japanese people

03:47themselves or could be you know for

03:48example 1946 after World War II the

03:51American government was basically the

03:53state over the Japanese Nation right and

03:56so once you think of this distinction

03:58between the nation and the state above

04:00it the const the nation-state was every

04:04you know ethnic group has the right to

04:08have its own government now the thing

04:10about this of course is

04:12um that's like an abstraction but in Con

04:14in concrete terms

04:16um many of the ethnic groups on the

04:18planet do not have their own government

04:21and or they do not have their own

04:22territory which is another part of it uh

04:25and so like you know if you're talking

04:26about the catalonians or uh you know the

04:30the Kurds these are groups that

04:32um have you know long histories and they

04:35have like a legitimate nature from from

04:38the perspective like the 1700s 1800s

04:40person who think about it you know the

04:42nation state uh that they have they

04:44they'd be considered a real Nation but

04:46they do not have

04:48um territory in the global game of

04:50musical chairs

04:51they didn't get a seat

04:53okay so like you have this map of the

04:55world and everybody's kind of moving

04:56around it and they just lost out in a

04:59seat they're a stateless nation okay and

05:01so like the Kurds for example their

05:03ethnic group overlaps or their

05:04historical lands overlap like turkey and

05:06other kinds of places okay and

05:09um the catalonians for example they

05:10overlap modern Spain the reason for this

05:12is that the maps that we have are

05:16actually very abstract constructs you

05:18know if you think about a map of Africa

05:21or actually even in the US you have

05:22these straight lines you know on a map

05:24whenever you see straight lines on a map

05:26that's like some surveyor said okay I'm

05:28gonna put this here because the latitude

05:30that's some like abstract political

05:32decision in a sense a map is like a

05:34digital layer above the physical world

05:36you don't see the lines of the map in

05:37the physical world right often those

05:39boundaries on a map do not reflect the

05:42ancestral you know long-running

05:44boundaries of language and culture and

05:47so on there is however a feedback loop

05:49where what happens is those Borders or

05:52those boundaries have humans impose then

05:54in turn change how humans start living

05:59and so you will have something where

06:01there's now a sharp transition from

06:03French to German as you cross the

06:04franco-german border signs change you

06:07know language has changed that human

06:09digital thing has caused a digital

06:11crease in the physical world whereas

06:13before it might have been more

06:14continuous right before we had modern

06:16map making before the world was mapped

06:18you sort of had a gradual Klein a

06:21gradual you know shift right so once you

06:23think of the difference between the

06:24nation and the state that the nation is

06:26this group of people with common birth

06:28in the state of this administrative

06:29layer and you think about how that

06:31relates to maps and so on you can start

06:32thinking oh okay the exact configuration

06:35that we have today is not only not how

06:37it's not always being but not how it

06:39always will be yeah I think that was

06:42another aha moment for me because in my

06:44lifetime those lines have been constant

06:47for the most part right there's

06:48exceptions but you kind of accept that

06:50this is the way the world works right

06:51these are the countries and I think

06:53another uh interesting uh concept that

06:55you you mentioned in your book is even

06:57the United Nations is perhaps named

06:59incorrectly right it should really be

07:00like the chosen States or something

07:02along those lines the selected States

07:04yeah there's a guy actually the

07:06Kazakhstan head he actually made this

07:09remark he's like look if we allowed

07:11every group in the world with a

07:13legitimate right to self-determination

07:15to get their own territory there'd be

07:17chaos we'd go from 193 countries to 600.

07:21that's what he said right I think it's

07:23probably way more than 600 but that just

07:26gives you a sense of oh okay I used to

07:28be against word games for the sake of

07:32word games but then I got more into it

07:36and one way to think about that if you

07:38know Dolly too yep exactly yeah so Dolly

07:42to two I had this tweet like the age of

07:44the phrase right the short phrase like

07:47whether it's a tweet you know on social

07:48media or whether it's a 12 or 13 or 14

07:51word phrase to go and reset your

07:54cryptocurrency your wallet you know

07:55passphrase or if it's a short phrase

07:58with like just a single sometimes

08:01character or single word that's

08:02different that changes what the computer

08:05generates you can actually see that

08:08changing one word changes what is in

08:10somebody's brain you know

08:13um and the concept of Russell

08:14conjugation I sweat you perspire but She

08:18Glows the same behavior can be flipped

08:21neutrally negatively positively without

08:24lying necessarily you're what you're

08:26just doing is you're changing the tone

08:28of it and so you can flip all of those

08:30variables negative if you want to make

08:32somebody look bad or flip all them

08:33positive he is you know in an

08:36uncontrollable range but she claps back

08:38righteously you know that kind of thing

08:41right and you just characterize the

08:43situation differently you Russell

08:44conjugated right and uh so the point

08:47being that that slight choice of word

08:49now with Dolly too we can see a a tiny

08:52change evokes literally a different

08:54visual in the computer brain and it also

08:56evokes a different visual probably in

08:59the human brain okay this is a very

09:01quantity right okay so with that this

09:03just to descend onto this concept of the

09:05nation the fact that people have

09:07conflated the nation and the state

09:09recently like people just say Nation say

09:11they don't realize there's a difference

09:12in the nation state

09:14many states today are actually not

09:16nation states Japan is a canonical

09:18example of a nation-state Israel is

09:21others like let's say India that's like

09:23more of a civilization State there's

09:25lots of different ethnic groups India is

09:27more like Europe you know like the South

09:28Indian and North Indian are like

09:30historically as different as like you

09:33know a Spaniard or somebody from Finland

09:35okay they're they're actually India was

09:38not a country until recently it was a

09:40civilization they did have things in

09:42common but a civilization say is

09:43different from a nation state that's one

09:45example or you have something like

09:48um you know Singapore or or the United

09:50States which is a multinational state

09:53where there's many different ethnic

09:54groups under one administrative Zone

09:57it's not a nation state it is a

09:59multinational State now people could

10:00argue that there was an American Nation

10:03like by the mid 1900s there was a lot of

10:06effort to kind of pack down people like

10:09uh Teddy Roosevelt talked about he

10:11wanted the end of the hyphenated

10:13American you know he didn't want people

10:14to be I'm a Polish American of this

10:16America everybody's just an American

10:17right so it's an enormous process where

10:19the state was trying to pack in and

10:22centralize and remove those

10:25um points of distinctiveness everybody

10:26just think of themselves as American

10:28only and by mid-century You could argue

10:30that was somewhat successful

10:32and that was like Peak centralization

10:34and uh why is that important well then

10:38people start not thinking about the

10:41difference between the nation and the

10:42state we're all the state itself has

10:44formed the nation do you see what I'm

10:46saying the state now says uh the German

10:49state is Germany the French state is

10:51France right the Italian state is Italy

10:53the American state is America and it

10:56waves a flag and so on and it's to the

10:58states advantage to identify itself with

11:00the nation one way one analogy I have in

11:03the book which I think is a funny way of

11:04thinking it's like uh labor and

11:07management and in a small company they

11:09are actually literally the same you know

11:10the founder is both the CEO and the

11:12person who's going and taking out the

11:14garbage or you know fixing the computers

11:16or whatever like every job is done by

11:18like one person right there's no you

11:20know division of labor or what have you

11:22and then as the company scales then

11:24management and labor arguably get more

11:27alienated or whatever and then people

11:29can say oh management is just aligned

11:30with labor and what's interesting is

11:32those people who will accept that are

11:34often folks who will contest the idea

11:36that the state and the nation are

11:38disaligned but it's actually a very

11:39useful analogy to see that they can be

11:42aligned but they can also be disaligned

11:43right it's not I'm obviously not you

11:45know somebody who's uh anti-management

11:48but I recognize that you want Equity

11:50structures and things like that to align

11:51you know folks right once you kind of

11:53realize that the nation the state are

11:55different you can re-examine all these

11:56words example multinational right so

11:59multinational for multinational

12:01corporation it's actually a misnomer it

12:03really should be called

12:03multi-jurisdictional or multi-state

12:05because it's not as if Google has like a

12:08direct ambassador to the catalonians and

12:10the Basques and the Kurds and so on it's

12:13actually talking to the states that have

12:15you know the administrative units right

12:17so it's multi-jurisdictional or

12:19multi-state the United Nations as we

12:21just discussed is really best called the

12:23selected States because it doesn't have

12:25all the nations of the world right and

12:28in fact many nations missed out on that

12:30game of musical chairs and they don't

12:33have a seat at the United Nations and

12:35now you can actually realize oh there's

12:36a whole queue of people peoples really I

12:40should say groups right with long

12:43histories and cultures that are boxed

12:45out of the United Nations

12:47and uh you know one that's you know very

12:50prominent is like the

12:52um you know mentioned the Kurds

12:54catalonians one that's like sort of

12:56becoming a nation are like the Taiwanese

12:58you know where there there wasn't like

13:01historically this huge necessarily

13:03difference for mainland China or at

13:04least there's some difference in a lot

13:06of folks in Taiwan came from mainland

13:08China because you know the Coleman tang

13:09and the the nationalists lost the Civil

13:11War you know a bunch of them you know

13:13moved out now Taiwan is like this that

13:16that's a very famous example something

13:17that's sort of on the boundary between

13:19just a group of people and like a

13:21full-fledged country that's recognized

13:22by everybody because China leans on

13:24people to not recognize Taiwan right and

13:28but but that's like a famous example but

13:30there's lots of other things that are in

13:31this sort of boundary Zone in different

13:32ways where some countries recognize them

13:34but not all you know so it's not part of

13:37the club fully but it's also not totally

13:39not part of the club it's like in this

13:41nether Zone this is a book called

13:42invisible countries what I'm getting at

13:44is once you distinguish the nation the

13:46state you re-examine words like

13:47multinational you're example re-examine

13:49words like the United Nations you

13:52re-examine words like National Security

13:53or phrases like National Security really

13:55that's like Federal Security right

13:57nation is often used to mean the whole

13:59thing but really it's like Federal like

14:01the overall government right and you

14:04realize you've actually there's a base

14:05that's being stolen you know the nation

14:07in the state are different and once you

14:09realize Nations here are different

14:10you're like oh well America actually is

14:13not a single nation at a minimum it's

14:15bi-national as you said the nation and

14:17the state are not always aligned and

14:18there is this gray Zone many people

14:20accept that these lines are very

14:22concrete they're very binary and I think

14:24many of the examples you've given showed

14:26that they're not necessarily and I think

14:28that relates directly into this idea of

14:31a network State because if you accept

14:33that the lines are binary they're set

14:36you can't change them there's no point

14:38of even going into this concept of a

14:40network state but as you dive into these

14:43gray zones and actually just to bring up

14:45one quick uh example from from your book

14:47is even just naming countries that many

14:49people didn't realize have emerged in

14:52the last couple decades right you think

14:53back to like the largest countries like

14:55America China Etc they have much longer

14:58history Industries but there are new

15:00countries on the map that have happened

15:02within our lifetime so that was another

15:04example of gray becoming part of the

15:08existing infrastructure this whole

15:09concept of constants becoming variables

15:12I think is a very important

15:15characteristic of our age 14 years ago

15:17there was it wasn't like fiat currency

15:20and cryptocurrency right there wasn't a

15:23distinction it was just like you know

15:24it's currency but you're gonna go if

15:26you'd walked into a VC's office in 2008

15:302007.

15:31and you said I'm going to found a new

15:34currency okay well actually Peter Thiel

15:36and PayPal they kind of tried to do that

15:38okay but they didn't really say that

15:40that was the thing they said you know

15:42it's like online payments and so on that

15:43idea were found in currency but

15:46the fundamental issue you know which

15:48Satoshi later put a finger on but it

15:50wasn't obvious was decentralization and

15:52then how do you actually make a

15:53decentralized back end in the blockchain

15:54all this stuff we know had somebody

15:56actually said oh I'm going to found a

15:57currency in 2007 2008. almost every VC

16:01would have looked to them like they had

16:02four eyes and they would have said what

16:04are you gonna go petition like the IMF

16:06the World Bank oh it's like and it's

16:09deflationary to haven't you read econ

16:12101 Paul Krugman proved that deflation

16:16is bad and you can never make you know

16:18they just quote these like priests to

16:21you basically to say that it's

16:22impossible it'd just be a joke you know

16:24to try and do something like that and so

16:25those people were thought of as jokes

16:26but Satoshi figured out uh a new way

16:30that literally started on a message

16:32board you know like he posted this on

16:35the uh like the Mets Dowd cryptography

16:37you know message board and what Satoshi

16:40realized that I don't think most people

16:42realize is uh even if this was

16:46implicit you can think of the internet

16:48as basically like giving rise to a new

16:50continent okay imagine in Atlantis that

16:53just arose out of the middle of the

16:56ocean and people were just taking

16:58commuter flights there back and forth

17:00each day okay so you'd spend eight hours

17:03in Atlantis and 16 hours at home that's

17:05really what the internet is you know how

17:07I can prove that well we're in it right

17:09now well right exactly like one way of

17:10thinking about it is ask themselves what

17:12percentage of their time they spend

17:15their waking hours do they spend looking

17:17at a screen of some kind

17:19okay whether it's laptop mobile phone

17:21tablet uh you know they're a smart watch

17:24something like that right what

17:26percentage of that time is that for you

17:27stuff I unfortunately have to say it's

17:30probably like 14 hours a day but I'm I'm

17:33probably in something like that uh I'd

17:35say probably the average person though

17:36right it's it's a third of their day

17:38maybe eight hours that's right so what

17:40that means and that's up from basically

17:42zero in 1991. yes right so you know this

17:47this Atlantis This Cloud continent right

17:50so just to extend the metaphor we're

17:52taking these commuter planes up to the

17:55cloud continent 14 hours a day and

17:57coming back and we're only spending

18:00two hours of her waking lives in your

18:02case on the land and 14 hours in the

18:05cloud right for other people it might

18:07only only be a few like three or four

18:09hours but like that's amazing billions

18:11of people have migrated huge chunks of

18:15their lives to This Cloud continent okay

18:17when you say billions I mean like three

18:19something billion just on Facebook right

18:21you add all the people with smartphones

18:23and so on so let's it's on there to

18:24three four billion people in the world

18:25half the people of the Earth have are

18:29now spending half their lives in this

18:31Cloud continent half their waking hours

18:34okay up from nothing in 1990 something

18:37when we think about that that is

18:39actually a different way of visualizing

18:42the whole thing and you realize the

18:43internet is actually on par with the

18:45discovery of the Americas for the

18:47Europeans right yes of course there were

18:49people in the Americas before the

18:51Europeans got there uh I talked about

18:53this in the book actually that like if

18:55you go and look at the bonto expansion

18:57or the Mongols sweeping across the world

19:00there's there's essentially no ethnic

19:03group that has ever had some location

19:05since time immemorial they just killed

19:08the previous folks and kind of took over

19:10their territory or whatever right so

19:11leaving that whole part of things aside

19:13from the perspective the Europeans like

19:15quote the discovery of the new world was

19:17this you know huge thing you know

19:19similarly like the folks who went over

19:21the Bering Strait their discovery of the

19:24Americas was this huge thing was this

19:25new frontier right which is obviously

19:26thousands of years earlier this internet

19:28Frontier where we've migrated to

19:32will over time give rise to new

19:34countries just like the Americas did

19:37right the Americas that people came

19:40there and they didn't think of

19:42themselves as American or Brazilian or

19:46Mexican or Canadian or something like

19:49that nowadays North and South America

19:50have they're all you know slotted into

19:52the same grid as like the old world

19:54right but initially they thought of

19:56themselves as English or French or you

19:58know they were colonists they were

19:59settlers right they didn't identify with

20:02the new land as primary and the old

20:04world is secondary right they didn't

20:06think of themselves as a Polish American

20:08or english-american right that also it's

20:11just English and that's similar to folks

20:14who spend all of this time In This Cloud

20:17continent but have not made the flip

20:19right you're spending the majority of

20:20your time in the cloud continent

20:22but you're not thinking of yourself as a

20:24cloud person yes first yet yeah is the

20:27key word I think yet I think one that's

20:29a keyword right interesting thing for

20:31you to share would be I think for for

20:34many people like the individual you

20:36might have just described they

20:39in reality spend a lot of time in the

20:41cloud but they don't actually see the

20:43cloud or the network as a true

20:46Challenger to something like the state

20:48or prior to that religion

20:50um and you talk about this as this idea

20:52of a New Leviathan and I think what

20:54would actually help people wrap their

20:57head around this is is what are some

20:58examples of where the network did

21:01challenge the state where there was

21:03almost like a head-to-head or a a strong

21:06sway that the network had in our wider

21:10world so I I mean one thing I've heard

21:11you talk about is Wall Street bets which

21:13people might think is is kind of a silly

21:16example but there are larger ones right

21:18so so what are some of those examples

21:19the concept of a leviathan generalizes

21:22and you know this is the the least

21:25common word in Silicon Valley is God

21:27okay or in technology is God all right

21:29so basically I'm going to talk about God

21:31for a second so the concept Leviathan

21:33generalizes God and what it basically

21:35means is in this context it's like Hobbs

21:37Leviathan and I'm just kind of you know

21:39take that concept and taking a little

21:40bit further

21:41and Leviathan is that all powerful force

21:45that stands above all men and makes

21:50anti-social people behave in pro-social

21:53ways okay so I have introduced three

21:55leviathans God State and network and it

21:59was actually gratifying I have this

22:00passage in there in one of the footnotes

22:01by a guy named Jacob Burkhart from force

22:04and freedom did you see that passage I'm

22:06not sure it's like footnote n or

22:08whatever of it

22:09uh there's a lot of no it's a lot of

22:11links but it's great why don't you uh

22:13why don't you share what that footnote

22:14is yeah so here is um here is this uh

22:17pretty cool footnote I think it's cool

22:18at least this kind of thing I think is

22:19cool

22:20um so this is from a book that was

22:22written almost 200 years ago okay force

22:25and freedom and uh I I found this after

22:29I had written much of the book or

22:30whatever just like just like you know

22:32just flipping through old stuff and I

22:33was like haha

22:34um

22:35and he identifies essentially three

22:37forces in the world uh he calls him

22:40State church and then the third Force he

22:44calls culture right and this is way

22:46before the internet or anything like

22:48that obviously right and but the state

22:51and church are kind of uh you know that

22:53you can kind of guess what those are

22:54right

22:56um culture he defines as all the

22:58peer-to-peer interactions between people

23:00everything that is so as soon as you get

23:02peer-to-peer he didn't say quite

23:04peer-to-peer he says uh I'll just give

23:06the exact quote our theme is the state

23:08religion and culture in their Mutual

23:10bearings we are fully aware of the

23:12arbitrariness of this division into

23:14three powers uh the division hour is a

23:17mere device to enable us to cover the

23:18ground indeed any historical subject

23:20must proceed in this way right the three

23:22powers are supremely heterogeneous to

23:24each other and cannot be coordinated and

23:26even if we were to coordinate the two

23:27constant state and religion culture

23:29would be still something essentially

23:30different

23:31the state and religion the expressions

23:32of political and metaphysical need may

23:34claim Authority at least over their

23:35particular peoples and indeed over the

23:37world for our special purpose however

23:39culture which means material and

23:41spiritual need in our sense is the sum

23:42of all that is spontaneously Arisen for

23:44the advancement of material life as an

23:46expression of spiritual and moral life

23:48all social intercourse Technologies Arts

23:49literature and Sciences is a realm of

23:51the variable free not necessarily

23:53Universal of all that cannot lay claim

23:55to Compulsive Authority wow okay that's

24:00like 200 years ago and what he's talking

24:02about in modern language would be

24:04culture is the network of peer-to-peer

24:07volitional interactions between people

24:09as opposed to the top down and positions

24:12of the church and the state respectively

24:15and this relates to council Leviathan so

24:16the three leviathans I describe as God

24:18State and network right and how do you

24:20think about this or in the 1800s what's

24:22the most powerful force in the world God

24:24why you do something wrong you steal God

24:27will punish you right that's why you

24:28don't steal okay by the 1900s enough

24:31people didn't believe in God you had

24:33nature writing about how God was dead

24:34and you know essentially the uh the

24:37basis for a lot of civilization you know

24:39you had this you went from this

24:41decentralized law enforcer who had hit

24:43you with lightning bolts if you did

24:44something bad people actually believed

24:45in that as like the super cop right

24:47people didn't believe in that anymore so

24:49instead you had the rise to a greater

24:51extent of the state filling that void

24:53right the uniform police forces the boys

24:56in blue in the extremists it's the

24:58Soviet Union of the totally Godless

24:59State and so on and in fact that was a

25:01huge Collision in the 20th century

25:02between the Soviet Union which was a

25:04pure state in America which is a god

25:06State combination like the Marine Corps

25:08of mid-century would say you know

25:09forgotten country so in the 1900s why do

25:12you steal because the state would punish

25:13you right even if you didn't believe in

25:14God the boys in blue would get you

25:16that's why there's so many police

25:17procedurals on TV right because the

25:20state is portrayed as omnipotent

25:22domestically all of those things even

25:24like a small little boy you know who

25:26knows what a cop and a robber is right

25:28they can see the uniforms and so on and

25:31so forth they are also you know taught

25:34oh the U.S military abroad can go and

25:37invade any country blow anything up it's

25:39big bad all-powerful blah blah right and

25:42until I think about 2019 those kinds of

25:44things while rickety they like people

25:47kind of believe in them and now what

25:48we're getting into is the third

25:50Leviathan which is a network and what

25:52that is is that's uh the cryptocurrency

25:54network that's the social network and

25:56now the network you have a third thing

25:58you you don't steal because the network

25:59won't let you either you'll get canceled

26:01by The Social Network or you will not be

26:05able to take it because the encryption

26:07prevents you and it is a third way of

26:09thinking about it God would Smite you

26:111800s state will punish you 1900s

26:13Network won't let you two thousands okay

26:15these are three different theories of

26:18the prime mover what is the most

26:19powerful force in the world is it God is

26:22it the US military or is it encryption

26:24all kinds of political arguments moral

26:26arguments

26:28um cultural arguments social arguments

26:30a lot of them reduced down to

26:33who is my Leviathan like what is what is

26:36the final thing that I'm invoking that

26:40says like basically like my dad can beat

26:42up your dad like my God is stronger than

26:44your god what do I think of as that you

26:46know thing and of course there could be

26:47conflicts within people of God right and

26:51there can be conflicts as I mentioned

26:52between people of God and people of the

26:53state Christians and the state like the

26:55Soviet Union persecuted you know people

26:57who got and there could be conflict

26:59between people the state and people of

27:00the network like you know the antitrust

27:02cases against tech companies or you know

27:05the state department versus Tornado cash

27:08and so on and so forth right once you

27:09kind of see this it's actually like a

27:11vocabulary for parsing the world and

27:14just to generalize is this a part that's

27:15not in V1 of the book but it's coming in

27:17V2 so

27:19with you know God we're familiar with

27:21the concept of atheist monotheist

27:23polytheists right okay so atheist

27:26doesn't believe in God there's also

27:27agnostic and so on but for our purposes

27:29right so atheist monotheist penalties uh

27:32atheist doesn't believe in God a

27:34monotheist like you know a Christian or

27:35Muslim believes in one God and a

27:38polytheist like a Hindu believes in many

27:40gods zero one and we can now generalize

27:44this to the a statist the monostatist

27:47and the polystatist

27:49and let's say the a coinist monocoinist

27:52polycoinist or you might say a new Mist

27:54like numis is like the study of coins

27:56right so what's the a status the a

27:58status is an anarchist

27:59okay they don't believe in the state at

28:01all so it could be a crypto Anarchist it

28:03could be an anarchical communist they

28:04just don't believe in the state of all

28:05okay zero States

28:06monostatus that's somebody who believes

28:08that their empire should run the world

28:10right like a national greatness neocon

28:13or like somebody who thinks China should

28:15dominate the whole world or whatever

28:16right

28:18um or back in the day like someone the

28:19Roman Empire the Soviet right Soviet

28:21imperialist that's like a mono status

28:23our state should run everything

28:25and then the polystatist is uh like

28:28somebody who's into competitive

28:30government digital Nomads okay switching

28:32between countries uh multiple passports

28:35okay now you can also apply the same

28:37framework to coins to the network a

28:40coinist is the no coiner they don't

28:42believe in coins at all they hate coins

28:44right you know web three critics blah

28:46blah okay monocoinist is like the uh

28:51let's the Bitcoin maximalist or a

28:52maximalist of any one you know that they

28:55think their digital currency or their

28:57network is just the number one everybody

28:59right the polyclinist I mean you know

29:01there's actually uh there's poly chain

29:03right there's multi-coin those are

29:06literally funds that were set up on the

29:09premise that multiple coins will exist

29:11which was controversial at the time that

29:13they set it up right like in you know I

29:15think polishing was set up in 2015 and

29:17issue they're about multi-coin on the

29:19exact time frame but around that time

29:20I'm just aiming those as two funds which

29:22are polychain and multi-coin so the

29:24polycoinist okay or the polynomist is

29:27another term numis is like numism is the

29:29study of coins like numismatic right

29:30they believe in multiple coins now

29:32here's what's interesting once you have

29:34this cleavage of the world right you can

29:37realize so that's like a three times

29:38three times three uh many ideologies can

29:41be further slotted into like

29:43combinations of these for example you

29:46have somebody who's the atheist

29:48monostatist a coinist right that is

29:51somebody who is like your secular East

29:55Coast establishment person who believes

29:57doesn't believe in God believes in the

29:59US government and especially the

30:00regulatory State and hates coins you

30:02know crypto Anarchist Bitcoin maximalist

30:03they're an atheist often sometimes

30:05they're a monotheist or polytheist or

30:07let's say often an atheist they are in a

30:10status they don't believe the state

30:12should exist but they're a mononuced

30:14okay so that's a real conflict that's

30:17going to happen between the atheist

30:21monostatist a newest and the eighth

30:24atheist a statist mononymous right

30:28that's like that's a collision because

30:30they they have different gods right

30:32that's going to be as big like the U.S

30:34government and the U.S dollar versus

30:36Bitcoin is as big a clash as like you

30:39know I don't know Christian Muslim was

30:40during the Crusades or something that's

30:42that's a that's a clash of

30:44um you know or like the Soviet

30:45University us those are two

30:47fundamentally different class of

30:48ideologies right go ahead I think to

30:50many people that would seem a little

30:53outlandish and I'm just you know being

30:55The Devil's Advocate what comes to mind

30:57is these are all Collective

31:00um terms or structures or things that we

31:03all believe in or don't believe in right

31:04some level of belief depending on where

31:06you fit in that Matrix

31:09and for many people let's say if we use

31:11God as the Leviathan The repercussions

31:14as you're saying of like not behaving in

31:16certain ways for them the people who

31:17believe in that they're like I'm going

31:19to hell that's like a lot of force or at

31:21least imagined Force the same thing is

31:23true with the stage right so if if I do

31:25something wrong I'm going to jail a lot

31:27of force again what's interesting about

31:30the New Leviathan that you're describing

31:32as the network

31:33there's Force but it it's not

31:37um approached the same way if that makes

31:39sense like it it's actually yes a lack

31:41of force in some ways it's it's

31:42cryptography and it's it's using the

31:44network to enforce certain things but

31:47without the same force that you imagine

31:49through God or the state and I think

31:52that's maybe why it's hard for some

31:54people to imagine this being a leviathan

31:56because a lot of people view the network

31:58as well this is just a bunch of

31:59semiconductors and servers and and bytes

32:02running back and forth

32:04um but I think that's why it's important

32:05to think through like or to to give

32:07these examples of where the network has

32:09actually been incredibly strong

32:12relative to other leviathans well so

32:16here's the thing is basically

32:18um one of the things I I touched on

32:19there and I talked about more in the

32:21book is

32:22fusions of leviathans right so you

32:24introduce these pure forms of like God

32:26seated Network and you can have like

32:28Fusion so I mentioned like God plus

32:30state is the American state right and

32:34there's different versions of network

32:35plus State uh one is the version that I

32:38you know the titular version of the book

32:40uh the eponymous

32:42Network state which is a fusion of

32:45network and state that uh you can think

32:47of as the network is the state like it's

32:51it's the government right the network is

32:53the nation that underpins the state

32:54because you have a Social Network online

32:56that is actually giving legitimacy as

32:58opposed to a physical physically based

33:01Nation where everybody lived together

33:02it's a digitally based Nation where

33:04everybody thinks the same and they're

33:05they're aligned that way rather than

33:06same language they have same culture but

33:08the culture is online there's different

33:10ways of parsing that but to your point

33:12in terms of force well

33:15um one Fusion of a a kind of network

33:18state is sort of a China's building

33:21right and actually what the U.S

33:23establishment is building and so you

33:25connect the network to drones

33:27right you connected to robots you

33:28connect for those physical actuators and

33:30that's like one way of thinking about it

33:32so now that absolutely is forced in the

33:34physical world and in fact that's

33:35already being deployed and so on right

33:37another way of thinking about it is

33:40um which is already there so this thread

33:42that I just pasted into chat so this is

33:44a while back but basically you know I

33:46was thinking about digital power and how

33:47to articulate it digital power is not

33:50really soft power okay if you're

33:52de-platformed and seeing all your money

33:54Frozen that's much more than just

33:56influence but it's also not what we

33:58traditionally think of as hard power

33:59because it's invisible it's intangible

34:01you can use it on 100 million people

34:03there's no Optics there's no like

34:05fireworks nothing blows up there's no

34:07nuclear explosion like the human brain

34:09is not trained to react to the use of

34:12digital power it's not dramatic in that

34:14way it's like a bit flipping on a server

34:16right

34:17um

34:18so I was trying to think about how to

34:20classify it and then I eventually was

34:21like oh you know here's a four-part

34:23classification analog soft power analog

34:26hard power digital soft power Digital

34:28hard power right you could all say

34:29physical soft power physical hard power

34:31digital soft power digital heart power

34:33and what is that analog soft power

34:34that's culture and influence okay analog

34:37hard power that's bombs of bullets this

34:39is the Classic Soft heart pair digital

34:42digital soft power is ranking and

34:44recommendation

34:46Digital hard power is de-platforming

34:48freezing and seizing and so the key

34:49differentiation is soft power is

34:51probabilistic and hard power is

34:53deterministic soft power you're

34:55persuading hard power you're compelling

34:57okay so now you start to actually see

34:59okay that's another way besides the

35:02obvious thing of drones and so on or you

35:04know that's like compelling in a very

35:05gun gun points at you kind of way

35:08you can compel in a different way with

35:10with the network where you lock people

35:13out

35:14either of their accounts online or their

35:16they can't access a building their key

35:18card is disabled right their their funds

35:20are frozen their account it has

35:23permissions reduced they're suspended

35:25Etc that's actually a very significant

35:26punishment in China for example like

35:29people uh their covet codes are used the

35:32red and green zones uh are often marked

35:35as like coveted red

35:36and then they can't travel their WeChat

35:39doesn't work and yeah in theory like it

35:41doesn't actually affect their physical

35:42body like they're not like hurt okay but

35:45they're basically unpersoned they are

35:47disconnected from huge chunks of the

35:49Chinese Network they have to rely on a

35:50friend to do things and so on they are

35:53just much less like independent than

35:55they were right it's similar though it's

35:57not quite there to like Exile like when

36:00you're exiled from the community in like

36:01Greece or whatever right so it's like

36:03digital exile

36:04I I think digital power should not be

36:06underestimated even if it's like flips

36:09on bits on servers it's growing in power

36:12drones are the most obvious example but

36:13locking you out of an account or digital

36:15soft power like downranking you these

36:17are big things that can totally crash

36:19somebody's uh you know company they can

36:22make or break you socially you know Etc

36:24yeah and I think it's it's directly

36:26correlated to our dependency on the

36:29network so as more people go online as

36:31more people spend more time online as we

36:33talked about before if people are

36:34spending eight hours of their day online

36:36that's a third of their living hours at

36:39half of their awake hours in which that

36:42is important to them to some degree and

36:44as it gets more integrated with work

36:46let's say that's that is a meaningful

36:49sense of power to your point one

36:51interesting aspect to consider as well

36:53is that with all of these forms of

36:55powers there's tears right so like you

36:57could think of the most extreme tier of

36:59hard analog power or force is like the

37:03death penalty right but but but you can

37:04actually dissuade someone from doing

37:06something

37:07by saying you know applying a night in

37:09jail or maybe it's a month in jail right

37:11so there's there's tears to it and I

37:13think there's going to be tears as well

37:14to digital power right where it's not

37:16just

37:17um the extreme version at all times but

37:19also it can be where you lose all access

37:22to your digital life and that's that's

37:24quite significant and the thing is your

37:26Digital Life just becomes your life you

37:28know in the sense of it's your login to

37:30all kinds of things right yeah why don't

37:31we return to this idea that you know it

37:33sounds like this digital power concept

37:35may not resonate with everyone but I

37:37want to give a couple of these examples

37:38because they really resonated with me

37:40that you've shared in your book and

37:42otherwise so I mean I mentioned Wall

37:43Street bets that's maybe a silly example

37:45another example of a network uh

37:49utilizing some degree of force is Amazon

37:51hq2 that's an example that you gave

37:53where actually like some concept yeah

37:56persuasion though exactly yes so that

37:59that so you know there's convincing and

38:01there's compelling yeah I mean something

38:02else that you've said is your

38:03immigration policy is your firewall

38:05you've also shown how networks can be

38:08utilized in unison with humans of course

38:11so another example that you've given is

38:13the power of 12 Instagram Engineers to

38:16beat 12 000 from Kodak right so Kodak

38:19yeah not not an example that's original

38:20to me but yes it's an important example

38:22right and so I think it's it it's

38:24important to recognize how the network

38:25does change the game it changes people's

38:29ability to participate Within These

38:31systems to challenge the state to Talent

38:33challenge previous leviathans and I

38:35think with that understanding it let's

38:37return back to the idea of the network

38:40State and actually building these new

38:44lines that many people assume are are

38:46very much set yeah so um so I actually I

38:50start off the book with this which is

38:52like you know because people skim

38:54nowadays and so never see it in one

38:57informal sentence is a highly aligned

39:01online community with a capacity for

39:03Collective action that crowdfund's

39:05territory around the world and

39:07eventually gain diplomatic recognition

39:08from pre-existing States that's like an

39:10informal sentence but just to kind of

39:11describe that highly aligned online

39:13community okay so it's not just you know

39:16A Game of Thrones Facebook group okay

39:18such as people who are there to pop

39:20popcorn they are highly aligned they all

39:22think of themselves as literally part of

39:23of the same Community okay and they've

39:26got leadership and they've got an org

39:29chart of some kind and they've got

39:31probably membership dues and a

39:33cryptocurrency and like this is at the

39:35top of their identity stack okay you

39:37know what you do is not what you are you

39:38may not think of yourself as a

39:40left-hander even if you are left-handed

39:42it used to be I'm Jim I'm 32 I like the

39:45Steelers you know live in Philly

39:47whatever something like that those are

39:49less and less common as bios right

39:51instead what people do is they put pound

39:54X you know like pound BTC or you know

39:57pound this movement pound that movement

39:59in their bios they will

40:01um they'll basically put their tribal

40:03Flags there boat their attack and their

40:05defense like if you kind of instantly

40:07know where somebody's coming from when

40:09you know their tribe right there's

40:11various shibbolets various words and

40:13things people put in there that identify

40:15what gang they're informally a part of

40:17what social network they are self

40:18identified with and that probably also

40:20accepts them to some extent they are

40:22also ready to sort of defend that entity

40:24they're putting it out there on their

40:25sleeve and often the attacks on somebody

40:27will attack them haha LOL another

40:30Bitcoin Nutter or something like that

40:32you know people will say that right and

40:33the next step is it has a capacity for

40:35Collective action right so it's aligned

40:37and it has common beliefs capacitor

40:39Collective action that's the part I was

40:40talking about with respect to the org

40:41chart and the leadership so again this

40:44is an extremely selective filter the

40:46vast majority of online communities do

40:49not have a capacity for Collective

40:51action why because I can you know if you

40:54look at a a Twitter following right

40:57let's say somebody has a million

40:59followers on Twitter okay how many likes

41:02does this does a typical tweet get

41:05actually a pretty good thing would be if

41:08you have a million followers to have a

41:10thousand or two thousand likes that's

41:11actually pretty good all in the order of

41:130.1 percent to point two percent are

41:14actually engaging with it that is not

41:16what I'm calling a capacity for

41:17Collective action that is a capacity for

41:18popcorn action okay uh yeah is it cool

41:22to eat food like this right okay a

41:24capacity for Collective action would

41:25mean that when you put something out to

41:28a thousand people you get a thousand

41:30likes you don't get one right you put

41:33something out to a million people you

41:35get a million people hitting the button

41:37basically that's what a capacity for

41:39Collective action is it's something

41:41where the group moves as one if you go

41:44and look at

41:45the web 2 internet okay you look at

41:48Hacker News and you look at Reddit and

41:50you look at Twitter there's an aspect of

41:51it which is

41:53um you can't unsee once you see it which

41:55is its entropy it's just 30 random links

41:58every time you refresh the page 30

42:01random links okay

42:03and what that means is it's like

42:04intellectually you're like oh hey you

42:07know a shiny object oh there's another

42:09one that direction oh that's cool look

42:10right and so what happens if you

42:14randomly move like you know a meter in

42:16this direction and randomly in this

42:17direction and then randomly in this

42:18direction right do you make any progress

42:20probably not right that's actually

42:23what's like the so-called spherical

42:24random walk you you just kind of just

42:27drift away from the origin or what have

42:29you

42:30um and

42:31you know by contrast if you have a

42:33focused Direction and you're like I'm

42:35learning Ai and I'm learning this today

42:38and that tomorrow and that and that and

42:40that then you're moving in a direction

42:41now there's ways of combining these by

42:43the way I'm not saying Serendipity is

42:45always bad

42:46um the flagella of E coli famously that

42:49have the tumble mode you know where it

42:51like randomly seeks it out and then it

42:53finds the nearest food supply and then

42:55it runs along uh that that thing right

42:58so it has uh it's like tumble and run

43:00okay so you can combine the random

43:03search with the directed search and you

43:05get a good combination okay

43:06um similar in somebody so like

43:08stochastic Center or something like that

43:11and so the

43:13point being though that

43:16um

43:17if you're just doing lots of entropic

43:19stuff you're not making progress on an

43:21axis and if you have lots of people who

43:24are just online to hit random buttons to

43:27Doom scroll to whatever to just click

43:29this and that and just popcorn there's

43:31no compulsion they're that's why they're

43:34wasting time right they're turning an

43:37hour of just looking at the screen into

43:39like a few clicks it's a very low

43:41efficiency conversion of their

43:42intellectual energy into output the

43:45capacity of collective action changes

43:46that so now you have this meta organs

43:47okay what's the third part of the

43:49definition I never see is a highly

43:50aligned online community with the

43:51capacitor Collective action that

43:52crowdfund's territory around the world

43:54once you've gotten people you know a

43:56thousand people in a Discord or

43:58something like that it might turn out to

43:59be by the way another kind of app

44:00because for example Discord doesn't like

44:04in force tasking once you've done that

44:07once you've shown a capacity for digital

44:08Collective action once you can get a

44:10thousand people to like something which

44:12is hard by the way it's very hard to do

44:13that okay and you might need new kinds

44:16of apps

44:17once you can do that well you can get to

44:19a very high bar of collective action

44:21which is not just getting a thousand

44:22people to like something but thousand

44:24people to buy something

44:25and in fact not just by any old thing

44:27but to crowdfund territory and move in

44:29together I'm gonna pause you there

44:30because I want to get to the rest of the

44:32definition but but that is something

44:34that you know is quite the leap of

44:36course yes I agree with you getting a

44:37thousand people to do anything even if

44:39it's liking a tweet that that is hard

44:43but get me to from there to

44:46crowdfunding land sure

44:48totally so I had this

44:51um this article called software's

44:53recognizing the world uh you know almost

44:5510 years ago and had a little table in

44:58there which I will let me see if I can

45:00find it classification of cloud

45:02formations taking physical shape right

45:04it's a very picturesque term a cloud

45:07formation I Define it as a group of

45:09people who meets on the internet okay

45:12and taking physical shape means they

45:14materialize out of the cloud and

45:17actually all calm and aggregate in

45:19person and even in 2013 almost 10 years

45:21ago I was tracking these cloud

45:23formations taking physical shape and

45:25here's a table right there's scale and

45:27duration right scale is the number of

45:28people and duration okay so the simplest

45:31is two people scale is two duration is

45:34one day so coffee with a LinkedIn

45:37contact okay you meet someone LinkedIn

45:39get coffee with them whatever that was I

45:41don't know if anybody's using LinkedIn

45:42today no offense the LinkedIn people

45:44listening to this all right but that

45:45that was happening back in the day all

45:47right so all right coffee LinkedIn

45:49content then two people for a month is

45:52you meet a remote engineer you interview

45:54them online okay and you bring them in

45:56for an on-site okay come in for a month

45:58okay

45:59two people for a year that's like

46:01match.com even in 1995 I mean obviously

46:03now there's Tinder or whatever but point

46:05is like match.com was like the beginning

46:06of that let's say 1995. two people for

46:0910 years that's like eharmony.com like

46:11oh they come together they're you know

46:13it's like very high intention form of

46:15you know matrimonial bond with somebody

46:16right okay 10 people for a day that's

46:19like hackathon obviously been going on

46:21for a while right 10 people for a month

46:23that's like a data science type program

46:26or you know one of these

46:29one of these sort of immersive courses

46:30where people come and meet up you know

46:32they take a course for a month and come

46:33somewhere right 10 people for a year

46:35those are like hacker houses which have

46:38started in the late 2000 you're probably

46:39aware of some people who have kind of

46:41moved in and just get a big house in you

46:44know uh and and the downside is communal

46:47living but the upside is communal living

46:49so the downside is there's other people

46:51around uh so you don't have total

46:52privacy or whatever but the upside is

46:54you get a much nicer house than you

46:57would otherwise like economies of scale

46:59get really good quickly with house

47:00there's also the digital Nomad version

47:02of that too right where you don't

47:04actually have communal living but kind

47:06of as you talk about Cloud first land

47:07last the digital Nomad hubs like changu

47:11or Lisbon or Chiang Mai are equivalents

47:13of this right like I would put them

47:14probably on the like 10 000 people for a

47:17couple years well it's funny because

47:19people people flip through them

47:22but they don't stay it's interesting

47:24it's one of those things where it's like

47:25maybe the 10 000 people in the cloud

47:28there's like a hundred people who are in

47:30that location at any one given time or

47:32something like that right that Community

47:33is kind of there and then it's gone it's

47:36it's like a it's like a cloud like

47:38drifting through an area versus them all

47:40actually being present right well I

47:41think so that's an interesting

47:42perspective I I would say that's true

47:45for some of them I would also say that

47:47some of them are actually quite stable

47:50and there are many Nomads that spend

47:51like you know many years in in a given

47:54place if not their intention is

47:57but 10 000 digital Nomads in one

47:59location while it's good and it's on the

48:02kind of track towards this is not what I

48:04would call a cloud formation unless all

48:07of those 10 000 people are basically

48:09friends with each other I see okay and

48:10this is actually this is an important

48:12Concept in the book one of the things I

48:13developed and this will be more more in

48:15the V2 I've got a lot of graphics and

48:16stuff quantitative definitions of terms

48:18from that we've been using sort of

48:20verbally for a long time right so for

48:23example what is a nation there's like

48:26like a dozen definitions that I've

48:28gotten the book or something on that

48:29order you know somebody's like it's got

48:31a Common Language oh no it's it's uh the

48:33folks who lived in a territory or no

48:34it's a common ancestry or you have um

48:37like Vernon's definition which I really

48:38like it's like a group of people who

48:40have done great things and wish to do

48:42great things together my definition is

48:45it's a densely connected subgraph in a

48:47social network what exactly does that

48:49mean a graph in in the math sense it's

48:51like nodes and edges right densely

48:54connected means

48:56um all nodes are connected to all other

49:00nodes for example if you have four nodes

49:03as a subset of a giant graph that has

49:07100 nodes and those those four nodes

49:10form a complete graph they're density

49:12connected if each of those four is

49:14connected to the other three you know it

49:15doesn't have to be a fully complete

49:16graph but just a densely connected graph

49:18that's much closer to complete graph

49:20than a random group of 10 000 digital

49:23Nomads might have no connections between

49:24themselves so that's not what I Define

49:26as a cloud formation this gets to our

49:28original thing about people are used to

49:30using the internet individually and

49:32informally collectively and this is now

49:34formally and Collective if you have a

49:37densely connected subgraph amidst a

49:39bunch of loosely connected nodes that's

49:42a natural unit of Association where

49:44these folks should be capable of

49:46self-government right because they all

49:49kind of know each other my my friend Jan

49:51talin uh who's like early Skype engineer

49:53you know very prominent investor and so

49:55on

49:56um he had a really amazing take on this

49:58which I'm gonna quote this is this is

50:00Jan's phrase he's like balji like you

50:02know he's kind of paraphrasing and he's

50:03like uh you know I've been early to

50:05three things in life

50:07AI

50:08crypto and dance

50:11I'm like dance no so he's like the

50:14investor in deepmind right which is

50:15obviously right and uh you know I've you

50:18know like I've also I've been

50:20we both seen early on a bunch of this

50:21type of stuff so yeah I'm like dance

50:23what do you mean and so what he meant

50:26was basically that when you see

50:30um you've probably seen this in movies

50:31but maybe you've seen in real life you

50:33know let's say there's a a couple who's

50:35really good at dancing right what

50:37happens is they're like locked on you

50:41know uh like a very choreographed kind

50:44of thing the entire dance floor kind of

50:46clears back in admiration and looking at

50:48the coordination of these two people

50:50people like seeing other people moving

50:53in formation

50:54or put in another way when you can get a

50:58group that is very highly aligned as

51:00demonstrated by the fact that they've

51:01even if you're not constantly thinking

51:03of oh they must have practiced a lot for

51:05that right their motion is pleasing to

51:06the eye but they have their

51:09obviously self-sacrificing like one

51:11person's elbow is not where their

51:12person's face is at that time you know

51:14right they have coordinated the whole

51:17thing okay

51:18that is now something that Garners

51:20respect from the outside because that's

51:24a unit it's a coordinated unit you can

51:26visually see it's a coordinating unit

51:28these people are all acting together and

51:31uh so as such because they respect each

51:35other

51:36they gain respect from the outside world

51:39so to a non-obvious extent

51:42this community if it's highly aligned if

51:44it can do a dance

51:46digitally right where it's moving in

51:49formation that group now you start

51:51thinking of it as a unit

51:53and you both respect them and you don't

51:56want to mess with them if I have to

51:57rephrase another way it's AI crypto and

51:59social okay okay walk me through because

52:01social Technologies allow people to

52:04coordinate yes right messaging apps

52:06discords you're allowing people to do

52:08this digital dance one way of kind of

52:10putting it all together have you seen

52:11the movie Transcendence I haven't with

52:13Johnny Depp no no okay so I'm going to

52:15spoil it for the viewers spoilers okay

52:17go watch it all right fine so uh you can

52:19pause it right now watch it um

52:21Transcendence is Awesome Movie

52:22um it's underrated I think I think it's

52:24a pretty good movie uh there's a lot of

52:26stuff that I like like this like Sarah

52:27gets or whatever they're just good

52:28Sci-Fi explorations of you know

52:30potential future even if they're

52:31dystopian which we can correct by the

52:33way uh on that note digression on

52:36digression many Hollywood movies are

52:38dystopian because they steal the bass

52:40they implicitly assume the present is

52:42okay and then some tech guy came in and

52:45ruined it with their autonomous robots

52:48or something they messed it up oh my God

52:49we had this good Eden going and they

52:51came to the Garden Eden spoiled it right

52:53and the alternative framing is that the

52:56present is dystopian and there's like

52:58a few Founders that just might be able

53:01to get us out of the situation if only

53:03they could get past a bureaucracy et

53:04cetera et cetera right and that's a

53:06different framing of like implicitly as

53:08a present matter with you okay point is

53:10Transcendence is I don't think it's

53:12dystopian hints at being dystopian early

53:14on but then it actually gets more

53:15positive one of the things in it is you

53:18have Johnny Depp is this AI that

53:21coordinates all these human beings and I

53:23thought it thought provoking because

53:25it extends the concept of

53:29um like what you can do with smartphones

53:30in terms of coordinating humans to

53:32another level right where it's not just

53:34you know let's say You're an Alien

53:36looking down at the Earth and you saw

53:38like somebody walking in New York right

53:40and then they suddenly take a right

53:42angle turn and you know they're just

53:44going in a totally different direction

53:45why because somebody in Hong Kong hit

53:49some keys to send them a text message

53:52saying oh no actually the office is down

53:54the street the other way okay

53:56that logic like if you were some alien

53:59observing this and trying to I mean

54:00there's an obvious logic to it from our

54:02perspective but like it seems like it's

54:04a very subtle signal that moved from

54:06this person over here like backing that

54:08out is like really difficult to figure

54:09that out okay but

54:12in the network it's very visible it's

54:13like oh this person coordinated the sort

54:15of person they did a dance

54:17okay and if you take that up and it's

54:19not just like I send a text message

54:21every day or hour or something like that

54:24we're sending packets

54:26now you can have a bunch of robots

54:28dancing in unison like this right or a

54:32bunch of people dancing in unison or

54:34some combination of people and robots

54:35people in servers okay

54:37and you can coordinate

54:39and so Transcendence shows like

54:41essentially many becoming one right this

54:43is actually something else that's going

54:44in V2 of the book

54:46um there's at least three different ways

54:47of thinking about many becoming one

54:49there is

54:52um let's call it uh there's democracy

54:54right which is an aggregation an

54:57election many become one because you all

54:59vote and then the decision and it goes

55:01out there's markets where many become

55:05one where you have an order book you

55:06have supply and demand let the market

55:08decide right you get a price and there's

55:10actually a third version which is

55:12harmony

55:13right many become one because many

55:16actually become a single organism in the

55:18in the case of network States though you

55:21go from yes I understand this Collective

55:23Unison online

55:25um what would be the reason that someone

55:28would want to go from that online

55:31digital Collective Unison to doing that

55:33in the physical world

55:35one point I make in the book is look

55:37obviously I love digital space and so

55:40and so forth this is something by the

55:42way which I found

55:43the V3 is hard to communicate

55:47um because people will hear something

55:48and they'll immediately bucket into V1

55:50or V2 but not V3 okay and so let me so

55:53Cloud first land last but not land never

55:56okay why do I say this whenever I talked

56:00about the network state or something

56:01like that people would hear one of two

56:03things

56:04they'd either hear oh it's totally

56:07digital yeah that's great you know the

56:09physical world doesn't matter we're all

56:11online cryptocurrency Internet blah blah

56:13blah

56:14or they'd hear it's purely digital you

56:17 like you know the humans are still

56:19physical beings we sell guns they're

56:22still buildings you're gonna eat online

56:24what are you know you idiot like another

56:26tech guy stupid Tech bro whatever right

56:28okay so they'll basically hear that it's

56:30purely digital

56:32but it's not purely digital it is a

56:34cloud formation that has the ambition of

56:38projecting into the physical world

56:41okay just like Google has offices all

56:44around the world and your login gets you

56:46into any Google office right why do they

56:49have physical offices well they do have

56:51Meetup points and so on right you might

56:52argue there's less need for physical

56:54offices than there was but there's still

56:56a need for it you still want to have

56:58meetups you still want to have you have

56:59data centers you have this kind of thing

57:01Cloud first land last but not land never

57:03right

57:04um

57:05another version of this are like the

57:07embassies of a country around the world

57:09right uh another version of this are

57:11like Starbucks chains around the world

57:13right you know like you know like

57:15basically a chain that has uh

57:17restaurants or storefronts around the

57:18world okay

57:20um and the examples I've just given are

57:22those that are basically you know

57:24commercial real estate or or you know

57:27their companies or their states like

57:28embassies it's like States or companies

57:30it's like a Starbucks around the world

57:31but you could have it where it's not a

57:34Starbucks or a Google office but

57:35residential real estate

57:37you could have essentially a network of

57:40communities where it's not a Google

57:41login to enter and you see a Google logo

57:43it's not your workplace it's your

57:45residence right you have essentially an

57:47ethnic diaspora around the world and you

57:49walk in and it's a little piece of Home

57:51everywhere you go right so I understand

57:53that why would you want so why would you

57:55want something like that well even more

57:57so than that so I can imagine why a

57:58digital Community would want to have

58:00these physical like locations around the

58:01world Google's a great example for

58:03offices I can also Imagine an example

58:05where it's a bunch of people who want

58:08these yeah these co-living houses and

58:11they just operate around them but one

58:14very important aspect of the network

58:16state is the need to be diplomatically

58:19recognized so why that step why not just

58:22operate within the states that already

58:25exist where you have these communities

58:27that are digital with a physical element

58:28why that extra step to be diplomatically

58:32recognized in your own State not every

58:34business needs to have the ambition of

58:37becoming a public company let alone

58:38becoming Google or Facebook right like

58:40so it's totally fine to have

58:43you know a sandwich store or like a

58:46hardware store or something like that

58:47okay

58:48in the same way think of there being a

58:50funnel okay so in the book uh you know

58:53in V2 the way I'm defining it is Network

58:55Society Network union network

58:57archipelago Network State okay Network

58:59Society or Star Society that's just like

59:01one person with a dream okay Network

59:04union now you go to uh or it starts as a

59:08network status website it's one person

59:10of the dream and they assemble a small

59:11group right then stage two is a network

59:13Union where they're now able to have

59:16that Union being able to take Collective

59:18action right so which is a huge step

59:21above like 99.9 of online groups do not

59:24have this capability in fact messaging

59:26apps discords are not built for tracking

59:29Collective action this is kind of the

59:30unification of cryptocurrency and

59:33Discord you will get something that

59:35actually tracks that and has

59:36leaderboards for people and everybody

59:38can see who did what Collective action

59:40and so on who participated there's a

59:41Karma board all the type of stuff right

59:44um

59:45many things will be useful so the short

59:47answer to your question is there's

59:49things that are useful just as Network

59:51unions and just as Network archipelagos

59:53that don't need to become full Network

59:55States just like there's things that are

59:57useful as hardware stores or small

59:59businesses that don't need to become

01:00:00Google right what's an example of a

01:00:03useful Network Union that's that can do

01:00:04digital Collective action an example I

01:00:06give in the book

01:00:08is of uh like a professional Guild okay

01:00:11so it's a guild of designers and why so

01:00:14those thousand designers let's say

01:00:16they're in a they're in a network Union

01:00:19um well 99 of the time they're just

01:00:21chatting and they are exchanging info on

01:00:24their latest designs uh maybe each day

01:00:27somebody says hey you know like here's

01:00:30my work

01:00:31um I'd love a boost right and uh so you

01:00:35know you maybe like if you think about

01:00:36it there's a thousand people so if you

01:00:38have three people a day each person gets

01:00:40like one boost a year or something like

01:00:42that Kaboom so they can ask for it

01:00:44they're actually asking for something

01:00:46from the community in return they are

01:00:48expected to give to the community and

01:00:49then RT or fave or whatever and uh this

01:00:52is disclosed on their thing they're like

01:00:54look I'm part of this community I'm part

01:00:55of this network Union we're all signal

01:00:57boosting each other and

01:01:00um then some folks may not be able to

01:01:01put in time or they may not have an

01:01:03account they could put in capital

01:01:04instead they'd be like look I couldn't

01:01:06make it today but I'm paying my uni

01:01:08induce in capital rather than time and

01:01:10that exchange rate is determined by like

01:01:12the union leader right so 99 of the time

01:01:14this you know Guild it's boosting its

01:01:17members it's helping to find those

01:01:19members a job right somebody needs a job

01:01:21I'm out of work okay and then everybody

01:01:23just okay the other 999 people someone

01:01:25can find them a job right away right it

01:01:28starts to be a very powerful support

01:01:29network a professional Guild that's why

01:01:30these things existed for many years

01:01:32we're kind of rebuilding them online

01:01:33okay

01:01:35and that's useful in its own right then

01:01:37one percent of the time that person is

01:01:38under attack online and then the the

01:01:42union leader looks at their bylaws and

01:01:45you know it's not unqualified defense of

01:01:48them right but most of the time online

01:01:49attacks are distortionary or you know

01:01:52there's a shorting of some some kind and

01:01:54uh say basically say okay this guy is

01:01:56being attacked or canceled or you know

01:01:59something unfairly here's their version

01:02:01of the story we're gonna signal boost

01:02:02that to get them out uh get get that up

01:02:04there because it is actually in

01:02:06somebody's time of need when their

01:02:08status is lowest that they need the

01:02:10Boost the most and if everybody in the

01:02:12community acts together the other 999

01:02:14people cannot be attacked for supporting

01:02:16this person right so you essentially

01:02:18join the union 99 of the time it is for

01:02:20like kind of upside one percent of the

01:02:22time it's like cancellation Insurance

01:02:24protection against downside right so

01:02:26that's an example of a structure that

01:02:28should exist that will exist that we're

01:02:29going to see lots of that's a purely

01:02:31digital structure and you can do that

01:02:33for designers you can do that for

01:02:34electrical engineers based basically

01:02:36you'll see all kinds of guilds like this

01:02:37right okay next step is something and

01:02:40that's digital only though you don't

01:02:41have to have any physical for that okay

01:02:42it's just protecting your digital life

01:02:44you're okay the next step is like a

01:02:46network archipelago which takes that

01:02:48capacity for Collective action that the

01:02:50network Union has demonstrated

01:02:53and now applies as I mentioned to

01:02:54crowdfunding territory in the physical

01:02:55world and having people live together

01:02:57now when even two people from an online

01:03:01Community start living together let

01:03:02alone 10 people it completely changes

01:03:04everything right you know one concept uh

01:03:07you know they mentioned is like

01:03:09companies have logos but communities

01:03:11have Flags

01:03:12and an important thing is you know like

01:03:14if you go to the networkstate.com if you

01:03:17see the logo in the upper left it is

01:03:18what we call the plus flag the plus flag

01:03:20stands for new country

01:03:22okay get it that's kind of clever I

01:03:24thought right yeah yeah and because you

01:03:26know the plus every day you're hitting

01:03:28that in the upper right of chrome right

01:03:30there what do you see the plus new tab

01:03:32right every single app the plus is new

01:03:34this new that right so

01:03:36it stands for the principle that one can

01:03:40create a new country right it also

01:03:41stands for win and help win right

01:03:43positive sum so you could imagine each

01:03:47of these people they're part of this

01:03:48network Union and they want to become

01:03:51part of a network archipelago and so

01:03:53they're hanging the flag of their

01:03:55community in their room they're seeing

01:03:57it every day they've got it on their

01:03:59profile and eventually they save up the

01:04:01money or the time they're able to get to

01:04:04a remote work job or something like that

01:04:06and they're able to find one or the

01:04:07other 999 people in the community and be

01:04:09like hey look why don't we go and get a

01:04:11group house together and now let's say

01:04:13there's six people who are associated

01:04:14with this in Boston they start doing

01:04:16meetups and stuff they don't live

01:04:17together right away but they do meetups

01:04:19and other kinds of things I mentioned

01:04:20this in the book they start doing

01:04:21meetups build trust and you might like

01:04:23three of the people there but only want

01:04:25to live with two other people or

01:04:26something like that okay this concept of

01:04:28group houses hacker houses all that

01:04:30stuff is a big thing among you know kind

01:04:32of the younger generation as you know or

01:04:33as your scale increases you buy an

01:04:34entire apartment building with like 300

01:04:36people or you buy like essentially a

01:04:38small town and guess what now you've got

01:04:40self-driving car town because you have

01:04:43unanimity you're the self-driving car

01:04:44community you put 400 people into middle

01:04:48of nowhere in Nebraska okay a thousand

01:04:51people whatever

01:04:52and now the roads are all zoned for

01:04:53self-driving cars you can rip up the

01:04:55roads you can do whatever you have root

01:04:56access to the physical world because you

01:04:58have alignment

01:04:59if you're building a network archipelago

01:05:01you want to build it on like burning man

01:05:04style territory probably right or at

01:05:07least territory that nobody else wants

01:05:08there's a website called like land and

01:05:10farm.com you can see that there's like

01:05:13properties which on a per square meter

01:05:15basis are like 1000x cheaper than Palo

01:05:17Alto you know why is why is Cornell why

01:05:19does Ithaca have higher property values

01:05:21than other things you know nearby it's

01:05:24because lots of smart people move there

01:05:25and thereby increase property values by

01:05:27moving there so these thousand people

01:05:29can make something out of nothing into

01:05:32something in the same way you can take a

01:05:34domain name that doesn't have any value

01:05:35and turn into something because all

01:05:37these pointers are now looking at all

01:05:38these backlinks that are looking at it

01:05:39so capacity for Collective action

01:05:41you have those thousand people they take

01:05:43a territory in the middle of nowhere

01:05:44that doesn't mean anything and they make

01:05:45it into something and now suddenly it's

01:05:47valuable right this this dance right

01:05:50that Collective action turns something

01:05:52that any one person could not have done

01:05:54into something that a thousand people

01:05:55can do together when they're moving as a

01:05:57multicellular organism just one example

01:05:59by the way of that is is chengu which I

01:06:02mentioned earlier back in I think it

01:06:03must have been around like 2013 or so

01:06:05chengu was very empty you know there's

01:06:08pictures of it back in the day where

01:06:10there's like Deus and one other building

01:06:11and then a bunch of rice fields and it

01:06:13took one person uh who ran a co-working

01:06:16space or wanted to open one and he

01:06:18worked with the locals he built a fiber

01:06:20line there and now if you look at chengu

01:06:22it's I mean it's it's completely full

01:06:23thousands of Nomads and to your point

01:06:25about property values I think I saw a

01:06:27tweet the other day of someone a friend

01:06:28of mine who lives there who basically

01:06:30said that his rent there was more

01:06:31expensive than his rent in Singapore

01:06:33where he used to live and so yes that's

01:06:35it like a a perfect example of where

01:06:38property as you're saying that no one

01:06:40cares about can be turned into property

01:06:42that people care about but do a lot of

01:06:45people want to do this how many people

01:06:47do you need to do Google how many what

01:06:49percentage of the world moves to the

01:06:50United States

01:06:52tiny percentage right that completely

01:06:54changed the world yeah I mean it strikes

01:06:56me that that there are people who will

01:06:57want to want to do this but will they

01:06:59want to move to like rural Utah or some

01:07:02some land that no one cares about I

01:07:04guess you just need a few is what you're

01:07:05saying a tiny percentage of the world

01:07:07moved to the US and the example of the

01:07:09United States though has been because

01:07:11there is new land right so to speak at

01:07:14least from the protective Europeans

01:07:16um there were social experiments

01:07:19in democracy and capitalism in

01:07:22particular that then propagated back to

01:07:24Europe and to the rest of the world like

01:07:25the French Revolution while it was bad

01:07:27was influenced by the American

01:07:29Revolution all the democratization a

01:07:31lots of the market stuff all kinds of

01:07:33things happen in the new world and came

01:07:34back to the old world right to an extent

01:07:36that I don't think people fully

01:07:37appreciate you know it's like the

01:07:38Margaret Mead thing right never doubt

01:07:40that you know a small group of highly

01:07:43motivated people can change the world

01:07:44indeed it's the only thing that ever has

01:07:46right and so

01:07:49Mass Appeal I mean one thing I think

01:07:51that's kind of interesting is just to

01:07:53hover on that point for a second

01:07:56um

01:07:57Mass Appeal comes last

01:07:59right like that's like after something

01:08:02is completely being proved out and and

01:08:04so and so forth and nothing ever goes

01:08:06from zero percent to mass movement I

01:08:09should say nothing ever

01:08:10um

01:08:12it is hard to get it to mass movement

01:08:14overnight and even if it does seem to do

01:08:16that it is because lots of prerequisites

01:08:18were installed billions of people with

01:08:20smartphones and they've got experience

01:08:21with Instagram and you've got 5G LTE and

01:08:25you've got the app store and you've got

01:08:27this and you've got that that's why Tick

01:08:29Tock could ride behind all those

01:08:31prerequisites because people knew what

01:08:33social networks were they knew what

01:08:34smartphones were they knew what app

01:08:35stores were they knew what a feed was

01:08:38blah blah so sliding behind all of those

01:08:40things I mean tick hours like you know a

01:08:43good company or whatever it's well

01:08:44executed

01:08:45um I'm sure you know people also say

01:08:47it's spyware blah blah but leaving that

01:08:49aside they were not an overnight they

01:08:51were not just an overnight success 10

01:08:52years in the making there were like 10

01:08:54companies in the making it's very easy

01:08:55to dismiss this idea of startup

01:08:58societies and then eventually a network

01:08:59State because there are going to be many

01:09:01failures just like there are many

01:09:02failures with startups and then we look

01:09:04at the successes today but there's you

01:09:06know almost infinite numbers of people

01:09:07who tried to build the next Google

01:09:09somewhere in the last 30 years right and

01:09:12and of course we we see the eventual

01:09:15success and I wonder how you think about

01:09:17that in terms of the number of

01:09:19experiments that need to happen in order

01:09:22to you know see this this network State

01:09:25how valuable do you think plant flight

01:09:27is I don't know very valuable yeah

01:09:29yeah very valuable right okay so click

01:09:31this link and this is a century of

01:09:33aircraft accidents and so you can

01:09:35literally see you know in this graph

01:09:37it's like as of you know uh August 2022

01:09:4228 896 accidents with 159 859 fatalities

01:09:48in basically the last hundreds of the

01:09:50years of Aviation okay 28 000 accidents

01:09:53fatal accidents right and a lot of

01:09:55non-fatal accidents okay

01:09:56so the point I mean no plane crashes no

01:09:58planes

01:10:00no train crashes no trains

01:10:02right no explosions no internal

01:10:05combustion engines right basically no

01:10:07risk no reward and so you know in a in a

01:10:10big way like we have virtualized all

01:10:12risk and that's progress right instead

01:10:14of all of risk but a lot of risk has

01:10:16been virtualized where it's just

01:10:17Financial Risk and so on and so forth I

01:10:19I kind of think people are foolhardy

01:10:21about physical risk where people will

01:10:24you know uh like do bungee jumping or

01:10:28skydiving or things like that they will

01:10:31you know do they'll take risks in my

01:10:33view with no reward Beyond just the

01:10:35thrill of it or whatever

01:10:36but there'll be a verse to okay let me

01:10:39try an experimental drug that could save

01:10:41save your life right you know euthanasia

01:10:44is legal in fact it's like the sixth

01:10:45leading cause of death in Canada like

01:10:47you can kill yourself but you can't take

01:10:49an experimental drug okay that's a

01:10:52that's actually a misallocation of brisk

01:10:54in the physical world instead an

01:10:56alternate society would lionize those

01:11:00people who took one for the team and

01:11:03took a risk on an experimental drug this

01:11:05is actually at the beginning of the

01:11:06pandemic by the way we could have had a

01:11:08vaccine in a week

01:11:09why because mRNA vaccines could be

01:11:13printed out all that time over those

01:11:15nine months was not spent I mean some of

01:11:17it was spent manufacturing or whatever

01:11:18but a lot of it was spent information

01:11:20gathering on whether the thing worked

01:11:22there's a way to fast forward all of

01:11:24that and that would have been with

01:11:25challenge trials what's the challenge

01:11:27trial you have a bunch of healthy Brave

01:11:28volunteers at the beginning of the

01:11:30pandemic okay and they get the vaccine

01:11:33and they volunteer to expose themselves

01:11:36to it I mean you could have you could

01:11:38have drafted the military for this by

01:11:39the way if you wanted to have groups

01:11:41people who said I will risk my life for

01:11:43the country or whatever right soldiers

01:11:45you could have asked for military

01:11:46volunteers you would have gotten

01:11:47soldiers who would have volunteered okay

01:11:48and you could have gotten it from

01:11:50different demographics so some people

01:11:51are in their 40s and 50s or whatever

01:11:53even in the military right you could

01:11:55have done this you could have gotten

01:11:56extremely good data very quickly and

01:11:58iterated on it if you had people who

01:12:01were willing to risk their lives for the

01:12:02greater good for the health of the

01:12:04population and of course you'd pay them

01:12:05and so on just like you pay soldiers in

01:12:07a battle and you give them Awards and

01:12:10whatnot and and you reward them for

01:12:12taking this risk for the whole team and

01:12:14they're not doing it to kill other

01:12:15people they're doing to save lives right

01:12:16look I'm not saying that you don't need

01:12:18a military at times okay but

01:12:20this is actually the kind of thing which

01:12:22is like a brave thing to do right now

01:12:25that kind of society which is uh

01:12:29clear-eyed about physical risk taking

01:12:32okay and that is considered the pros and

01:12:35cons but what it does is it basically

01:12:37says again no plane crashes no plans I

01:12:39mean there's another there's a book

01:12:40called The CRC Handbook of chemistry and

01:12:42physics here you know what this is I

01:12:44have not read that yet the CRC Handbook

01:12:46of chemistry and physics is the kind of

01:12:48thing that I would flip through in high

01:12:50school I it was basically like printed

01:12:52out math world or printed out the math

01:12:54portion of Wikipedia before that existed

01:12:57you know all the compounds especially

01:12:59the older compounds you'd see you know

01:13:01smell and taste like cyanide it had you

01:13:04know and how did we know that cyanide

01:13:07smells like almonds there's some guy who

01:13:08took a hit for the team he's like

01:13:11um is

01:13:12you know croaks after that right because

01:13:14they like the old school chemists were

01:13:17crazy enough to like smell and taste the

01:13:19compounds that's why we have you know

01:13:22that that's why we know how to do

01:13:25um flavors in Foods right that's you

01:13:27know it is it is because somebody is

01:13:29taking the hit to take that test at some

01:13:32point it needs to contact the physical

01:13:33world someone must take a risk at some

01:13:34point right

01:13:36no risk now the thing is this is being

01:13:38pathologized to be like oh you're

01:13:40encouraging to take a risk so you're

01:13:42exploiting them you're exploiting them

01:13:44to take a risk and so on okay well like

01:13:46the issue with this is it kind of

01:13:48assumes that there's no informed consent

01:13:50that's possible you know if you're if

01:13:52you're not paying somebody to do

01:13:53something you're exploiting them if you

01:13:55are paying them to do something because

01:13:57you're paying them you're convincing

01:13:58them to do it when they wouldn't have

01:13:59always do it so you're also exploiting

01:14:00them everything is exploiting other than

01:14:02convince people to go you know letting

01:14:04people go bungee jump and take

01:14:05purposeless risks and self-destructive

01:14:07risks and Military risks and that's all

01:14:09fine but but you can't have calculated

01:14:11risk right okay so I disagree with that

01:14:13philosophy and I understand why people

01:14:15have that philosophy that all other

01:14:17people's physical risk is expectation

01:14:18but I think it can be done in a proper

01:14:20way and I think the way to do it is you

01:14:22start with this online community you

01:14:23start with a network Union you develop

01:14:25lots of movies it's basically a Content

01:14:28unit okay you develop movies you develop

01:14:30books you've got little short films all

01:14:33this stuff is open source okay

01:14:34why it's almost like have you heard the

01:14:37term devotional content no it's

01:14:39basically like like Bitcoin maximalist

01:14:40in a sense or devotional content lots of

01:14:42folks on Twitter are cranking out what I

01:14:43consider devotional content for their

01:14:45hashtag they're cranking a devotional

01:14:47content which is here's why my cause is

01:14:49good here's why you are bad right here's

01:14:51why I want to abolish the police here's

01:14:53why I want to like Social Security or

01:14:55something like that okay that's possibly

01:14:57is more like the kind of thing that gets

01:14:59you to zealous level right Bitcoin gets

01:15:01you to zealous of devotional content

01:15:02okay so what you'd have is lots of

01:15:06movies like Dallas Buyers Club

01:15:08okay not exactly in that register in

01:15:11that tone but like some Dallas Buyers

01:15:13Club and some Limitless you know

01:15:14Limitless I've heard of it I haven't let

01:15:16me describe yeah please do I've seen

01:15:17Dallas fires Club but please for those

01:15:19who haven't so why don't you describe

01:15:21Dallas photo so the movie is about a man

01:15:23who happens to get HIV and at the time I

01:15:26think there are drugs that potentially

01:15:29could cure him but he cannot get access

01:15:31to them am I remembering this correctly

01:15:33that's right yes yeah and it's his fight

01:15:36to to basically get that access and also

01:15:38get that access for other people and I

01:15:40think he basically ends up breaking the

01:15:42law getting in trouble because he's

01:15:43getting these drugs to himself and other

01:15:45people uh he ends up dying I think but

01:15:47sorry another spoiler um but am I

01:15:50remembering that correctly that's right

01:15:51but basically the primary agency

01:15:53preventing him from getting the drugs is

01:15:54the FDA right and this is based on the

01:15:57true story of like act up where um you

01:16:00know people would do die-ins uh where

01:16:03the FDA was preventing them from getting

01:16:04access to these I mean these people were

01:16:06you know had this life-threatening

01:16:08condition obviously sleep fundamentally

01:16:09they're miscalibrated on terms of risk

01:16:11right they want to minimize PR risk for

01:16:15themselves the agency as opposed to

01:16:19allowing people to take a risk on their

01:16:22own right and why is that it's because

01:16:24media

01:16:26only covers it when a drug doesn't work

01:16:28and doesn't cover it when

01:16:31um a drug does work but is being delayed

01:16:33calculations of so-called drug lag

01:16:36um depending I mean like Alex tabrock

01:16:38and you know others have pulled things

01:16:40together on this right you know Daniel

01:16:42hendinger has written about this

01:16:44depending on how you calculate it the

01:16:45number of lives that's been caused by

01:16:47the FDA basically if you have a drug and

01:16:49it was held up by 10 years and then once

01:16:52it was approved it reduced morbidity and

01:16:53mortality by X percentage that means

01:16:56fda's delay of 10 years multiplied by

01:16:59that is how many lives it cost

01:17:01relative to just taking the risk at the

01:17:03beginning and shipping it right now

01:17:05there is risk okay but once you start

01:17:09having the ability to take calculated

01:17:10risks you can move at the speed of

01:17:12software basically do you know for

01:17:13example who Banting investor I they're

01:17:16familiar but why don't you share we need

01:17:18to get Banting in best zones okay

01:17:20banking invest they've won the Nobel

01:17:21Prize in the 20s 1920s why because they

01:17:25came with the concept for insulin

01:17:28supplementation to uh treat diabetes

01:17:32they had the hypothesis they tested it

01:17:36um on dogs okay then they tested it on

01:17:40themselves then they tested on patient

01:17:43volunteers and like you know it's like a

01:17:45miracle drug like people jumping out of

01:17:47bed type stuff right and then Eli Lilly

01:17:50had like scale production for the entire

01:17:52North American continent in like two

01:17:54years and they won the Nobel Prize in

01:17:55like two years after they started okay

01:17:57that is like when Pharma moved the speed

01:18:01of software that is what is possible in

01:18:04the physical world

01:18:05once we can get a Zone outside the FDA

01:18:08once we can exit the FDA people don't

01:18:10understand how bad the FDA is your

01:18:12entire life it's like tens of trillions

01:18:15of dollars of values being held back by

01:18:17FDA it's like incalculable how bad they

01:18:20are as an agency and we saw this during

01:18:22covid where they were holding back I

01:18:24mean FDA is why we were Flying Blind in

01:18:27you know February 2020 because they were

01:18:30holding back the tests that's why the

01:18:33journals were reporting that oh there's

01:18:35no problem it's not in the US yet

01:18:37actually it was in the U.S why was it in

01:18:39the U.S because

01:18:40it actually come in Via China and uh

01:18:43people were not able to run tests to

01:18:45confirm it because they had to get a

01:18:47so-called emergency use authorization

01:18:48from FDA which was delayed so what

01:18:51happened was actually some Labs actually

01:18:53did Civil Disobedience just like Dallas

01:18:54Buyers Club and they defied FDA and they

01:18:57just went and ran the test and later

01:18:59they got sort of a blessing from the

01:19:01journals which was okay Dave Russell

01:19:03conjugated it as civil disobedience

01:19:05versus running an illegal test blah blah

01:19:08blah right so they they basically

01:19:09blessed it retroactively so FDA did not

01:19:12go and crack down on those labs that

01:19:13actually managed to get the testing data

01:19:15out there okay vaccine could have been

01:19:17had in a week okay the tests could have

01:19:20been there immediately fundamentally

01:19:23FDA is the problem with it is it's uh

01:19:27it's got control over the entire world

01:19:30the single most important technological

01:19:32problem to solve in the world is the

01:19:33problem of regulatory harmonization

01:19:35regulatory harmonization is a process by

01:19:37which a group of unelected bureaucrats

01:19:39in the U.S write the regulations for the

01:19:42entire world just like a small just like

01:19:45a small website right will Outsource its

01:19:48log into Facebook login okay because you

01:19:51know hey Facebook's big you know right

01:19:53but in so doing it's beholden to

01:19:55Facebook you know I I respect Zuck but I

01:19:57also don't necessarily want the login

01:19:58system to be completely at the

01:20:00discretion some engineer there right in

01:20:02the same way a small country you know

01:20:04Czech Slovakia or like you know some

01:20:06small country will Outsource their

01:20:09regulation to the FDA the SEC you know

01:20:13FAA right and they'll say oh well look

01:20:16you know America's Regulators uh should

01:20:19be good enough for us we're a small

01:20:22country of a few million people this is

01:20:24a big country it's got a big Market

01:20:25therefore if a country if a company can

01:20:28get through FDA regulation then we'll

01:20:30approve it for sale the product for sale

01:20:32in our country if the plane can get

01:20:34through FAA will approve for sale if it

01:20:36can get through

01:20:38um SEC then okay it's it's like seems

01:20:41like a decent Financial product we might

01:20:42list on our Stock Exchange or something

01:20:43or allow our citizens to buy it or

01:20:45something like that this is actually

01:20:46something that is sought by FAA

01:20:49SEC

01:20:50FDA respectively if you go to their

01:20:52website look for harmonization they

01:20:55intentionally convene working groups

01:20:56with all the rest of regulators in the

01:20:58world to say use U.S regulations

01:21:00harmonize have everybody singing in

01:21:02unison the thing is both big business

01:21:04and big government like this obviously

01:21:06The Regulators like it because

01:21:09um when you when you become a federal

01:21:12regulator you're not doing it for profit

01:21:14you're doing it for Ambit

01:21:16right Ambit in like this the scope like

01:21:19a you know Ambit same route as ambition

01:21:21right

01:21:22um you know it's like a relatively

01:21:24uncommon word but it's like the scope

01:21:26extent or bounds of something right

01:21:29so

01:21:30if a CEO wants maximum profit for their

01:21:33company a regulator wants maximum Ambit

01:21:36for their regulatory agency they just

01:21:38want scope I'm like the most baddest you

01:21:41know biggest regulator around right FDA

01:21:43brags that they regulate something like

01:21:4530 cents out of every dollar they like

01:21:46brag about this how big their regulatory

01:21:49Ambit is the most powerful regulatory

01:21:50ages of the world it's a Food and Drugs

01:21:52Administration literally everything you

01:21:54put in your body every bite you take

01:21:56every single day is regulated by FDA in

01:21:58the US and around the world right so

01:22:00it's power is absolutely immense we have

01:22:03bionic eyes they exist we have super

01:22:06soldier serum it's already real do you

01:22:08see that post of mine no I didn't

01:22:10there's a little mouse on the left hand

01:22:12side and there's a myostatin null Mouse

01:22:14on the right hand side okay and then the

01:22:16second row that's the chest of the mouse

01:22:20on the left and the mouse on the right

01:22:21and that's literally like Captain

01:22:23America before and after that paper is

01:22:25coming came out like 15 years ago people

01:22:27have known about myostatin and all

01:22:28literally this one and if you just

01:22:31inhibit myostatin there's different ways

01:22:33of doing you can do knock down other

01:22:34stuff and there's other things folio

01:22:35stat and blah blah you could make

01:22:37somebody basically naturally jacked

01:22:40and you know the side effect would be

01:22:41because muscle is metabolically

01:22:43expensive they'd be able to eat whatever

01:22:45they want and of course you know people

01:22:47say oh my God you know they'll have to

01:22:49be side effects it's like Icarus we flew

01:22:51too close to the Sun Well actually no

01:22:53they don't have to be side effects yes

01:22:54it might be plane crashes but we

01:22:56eventually figured out how to get

01:22:56Aviation basically without plane crashes

01:22:58in the same way you could figure out

01:23:00dosage and with enough volunteers enough

01:23:01people you could probably get like very

01:23:05effective either natural or artificial

01:23:08steroids or equivalents that would make

01:23:11somebody naturally muscular and fit just

01:23:14like we take caffeine every day it's a

01:23:16known drug with known plus and minuses

01:23:18you have something that's like that

01:23:19right this is just like one example I

01:23:21can give like 50 more okay the point is

01:23:23the FDA is holding back so so so much so

01:23:27that is like where you why you want like

01:23:29a network state okay so Network Union as

01:23:32I mentioned so you know the progression

01:23:34Network Union just does things digitally

01:23:35and collectively so it's like a like a

01:23:37guild working together right a network

01:23:39archipelago now you're getting offline

01:23:41territory but some things do yes require

01:23:43changes in law so that's the highest

01:23:45level in network state is something that

01:23:47has that Collective action capacity and

01:23:50the content has which which aligns

01:23:53people has the physical footprint and it

01:23:55has like the square meters of physical

01:23:57space and then the last step is it gets

01:24:00big enough and strong enough and morally

01:24:03aligned enough it can do the dance right

01:24:05that

01:24:07a city or state or country recognizes it

01:24:11and does it deal with it okay and what

01:24:14are the Precedence for this so like

01:24:15Wyoming has its Dow law it's literally

01:24:17built an interface effectively to the

01:24:19ethereum network right or El Salvador

01:24:21bitcoin's national currency there so

01:24:23it's built an interface to the Bitcoin

01:24:24Network or uh Nevada has you know done a

01:24:28deal with the lawn for the geiger

01:24:29Factory right so that's like there okay

01:24:31or Amazon with hq2

01:24:33um Google tried something like this with

01:24:34sidewalk Labs it got pushed back but the

01:24:36concept was there okay point is that

01:24:38lots of these Sovereign entities cities

01:24:41states countries

01:24:44um or let's say not lots enough of them

01:24:46okay have been doing deals with

01:24:49companies and digital currencies that

01:24:52there is feasibility there

01:24:53and so this the what you'd want is you

01:24:56want a group of people which is large

01:24:58enough motivated enough maybe it's

01:25:01a thousand people maybe it's ten

01:25:03thousand maybe it's a hundred thousand

01:25:04maybe you need a million people I don't

01:25:05know the scale of it that's an empirical

01:25:06question

01:25:07that they can go to all of the different

01:25:10mayors and governors and maybe

01:25:13presidents of the world because they're

01:25:14they're it's a parallel process that's

01:25:16the awesome thing you're no longer just

01:25:18negotiating with just the U.S government

01:25:21Etc right forget them like the US

01:25:23federal government will be the last

01:25:24mover on everything like everybody's

01:25:27over indexed on we need to reform the US

01:25:29government no you need to exit the U.S

01:25:30government I shouldn't say ignore but

01:25:33just assume they can do nothing good

01:25:35okay assume they can do nothing good and

01:25:37basically just focus on the other 96 of

01:25:41the world right who are not American and

01:25:43the enormous part of the us which is

01:25:46breaking away from the US government uh

01:25:48meaning

01:25:49you you want to try to get a sanctuary

01:25:51City

01:25:52for biomedicine a sanctuary City for

01:25:57cryptocurrency a sanctuary City for

01:25:59self-driving cars where federal law is

01:26:03not enforced right officially and is

01:26:06that not enforced only along that plane

01:26:09or is it you are you are creating

01:26:11completely

01:26:13lots of laws well it's both so basically

01:26:14the thing is

01:26:16you can do this both within and outside

01:26:18the US right outside the U.S

01:26:19harmonization is rejected inside so

01:26:22basically the unelected bureaucrats of

01:26:24Silver Spring Maryland no longer have

01:26:26power but why do I say that because

01:26:27those bureaucrats I mean for example

01:26:30when Facebook is criticized you know who

01:26:32runs Facebook it suck right you know

01:26:34he's in control of it he's like attacked

01:26:36by name constantly people personalize it

01:26:38it sucks company blah blah

01:26:40can you name a single person who works

01:26:42at FDA no right despite the fact that

01:26:44every single bite you take every day is

01:26:46regulated by them there's zero personal

01:26:48accountability okay if they're ever

01:26:50criticized it's this abstract thing of

01:26:52the agency which has billions of dollars

01:26:54in annual budget and essentially

01:26:56infinite hit points can't go bankrupt

01:26:58right it has Appropriations from the

01:27:00government right you know so no

01:27:02individual is Ever Accountable there

01:27:03they're not accountable to the

01:27:06electorate there's no elections okay and

01:27:08they're not accountable to the market

01:27:09because they have career tenure and

01:27:11can't be fired and they're Anonymous

01:27:12they're not even accountable in terms of

01:27:13public criticism so this is totally

01:27:16unaccountable agency that determines

01:27:18everything you eat and drink your

01:27:21vaccines your drugs your this and that

01:27:22and has delegitimated itself in its

01:27:26performance over covet where it held

01:27:27back the vaccines it also you know the

01:27:29Johnson Johnson vaccine got held back by

01:27:31like a few weeks over some stupid scare

01:27:33like you know the problem by the way

01:27:35with the coveted conversation around

01:27:37like vaccines is either being like Yay

01:27:40everybody you know is forced to take the

01:27:41vaccine or you know oh my God vaccines

01:27:44are a world economic Forum conspiracy

01:27:46Cloud Schwab Etc and what there hasn't

01:27:48been is option three which is we needed

01:27:50this in a week and we could have like

01:27:52essentially gotten them to the

01:27:56vulnerable first even if manufacturing

01:27:57needed some time to scale which it would

01:27:59have you get them to like the elderly

01:28:02rapidly right and you could have avoided

01:28:05like a million dead that million debt is

01:28:07on the fda's head like because challenge

01:28:09trials could have been done you know and

01:28:11so that's like a different

01:28:12interpretation of like the problem with

01:28:14this right now the thing is that no

01:28:17country around the world

01:28:19has this formulated in quite this way

01:28:21that is to say despite the fact that

01:28:23these are you know ostensibly Sovereign

01:28:25countries they don't have the narrative

01:28:27that a FDA is illegitimate and or

01:28:29delegitimated and B also and this is

01:28:32important I want to make this important

01:28:34I'm not saying zero regulations and a

01:28:38total free-for-all of all kinds I'm

01:28:40actually saying a V3 right so I'm not

01:28:42saying just ndfda I'm saying exit the

01:28:44FDA just like you didn't just end the

01:28:47fed and replace it with nothing you're

01:28:48ending the fed or exiting the fed and

01:28:50replacing with Bitcoin the reason being

01:28:52just to talk about this point for a

01:28:53second because I think it's important

01:28:54I've just spent all this time tearing

01:28:56the thing down land let me give

01:28:57something to it to build it back up

01:28:59again people want

01:29:01a regulated Marketplace in the sense of

01:29:04they want a regulator that will do star

01:29:07ratings like quality ratings of you know

01:29:09most actors and bands of Bad actors

01:29:11right so you get a star rating one to

01:29:13five stars on like you know something

01:29:14you know that's that's a product in the

01:29:16market and the zero star Bad actors the

01:29:18scammers are just like kicked out of the

01:29:20market entirely one way of doing that is

01:29:23a national state-based regulator like

01:29:26FDA FAA SEC Etc another way of doing it

01:29:29which is actually not thought of as such

01:29:31but it's really important is a

01:29:32cloud-based International regulator like

01:29:36Amazon eBay actually even Gmail Apple

01:29:39Etc how are those Regulators what do you

01:29:41mean well obviously Amazon has star

01:29:44ratings eBay has star ratings and they

01:29:46also kick Bad actors right and to kick

01:29:49Bad actors on The Merchant side Uber and

01:29:51Airbnb are also Regulators they're

01:29:52International Regulators they're better

01:29:54than the taxi medallions or the hotel

01:29:56Regulators because Uber is tracking

01:29:59every trip right they're giving R

01:30:01ratings on both the driver and the

01:30:03passenger they're checking that payment

01:30:06can go through and that the passenger is

01:30:08good for it and so on and then they are

01:30:10decommissioning people who have low

01:30:12ratings on either side or abusive this

01:30:14is just in a sense a much more intrusive

01:30:16regulator no taxi Medallion could

01:30:18possibly do anything like that right

01:30:20they do a I mean a very cursory

01:30:23inspection every six months that the

01:30:25windshield wiper still works they're not

01:30:27getting reviews from every Rider

01:30:29certainly not collecting them in real

01:30:30time certainly not looking at the they

01:30:31have to get a series it has to be like

01:30:33an accident for them to actually write

01:30:35up that Taxi Driver it has to be a right

01:30:37tail kind of thing so The state-based

01:30:39paper-based Regulators fundamentally

01:30:41less efficient than the cloud-based

01:30:43International regular which also has

01:30:44data from around the world

01:30:46moreover it's inefficient in a different

01:30:48way where typically we think of the

01:30:50state-based regulator as adversarial to

01:30:52the industry right oh the taxi regulator

01:30:53is supposed to be adversarial to the tax

01:30:55companies keep them in check what

01:30:57actually happens is they form a duopoly

01:30:59against the customer whereas the Cozy

01:31:02relationship between the taxi regular

01:31:03and the taxi drivers since the taxi

01:31:05drivers sort of they get to know the

01:31:07regulator but the taxi Riders just flip

01:31:09in and out you know like taxi Riders

01:31:11have nothing in common besides driving a

01:31:13taxi but the drivers keep meeting with

01:31:14The Regulators eventually form social

01:31:15bonds in the same way the FDA is in many

01:31:19ways adversarial to Pharma companies but

01:31:21it's also Cooperative with them against

01:31:23startups and against patients who want

01:31:25novel treatments okay

01:31:28so Uber and Lyft actually changed this

01:31:30Airbnb changed this because now you have

01:31:33a regulator customer provider complex

01:31:36it's Uber the regulator the Uber driver

01:31:39and the Uber passenger

01:31:42versus lift the regulator and the Lyft

01:31:44driver

01:31:45for the passenger right so the star

01:31:48rating and the provider are linked

01:31:50together and the efficiency comes from

01:31:51competition between Regulators it is

01:31:53it's what's called polycentric law okay

01:31:55so it is within the same jurisdiction

01:31:57you have choice of law okay I pick the

01:32:01Uber app or the Lyft app or in another

01:32:03country go check or grab right you have

01:32:06choice of regulator right now even two

01:32:08choices is better than one yeah I get

01:32:09that it's due optimistic in some ways

01:32:11but there's other like ride sharing apps

01:32:13and so on right that's a model where

01:32:15you're not seeing no regulation

01:32:17whatsoever you're seeing a choice of

01:32:18regulator Regulators are actually

01:32:20incredibly valuable like like these are

01:32:22multi-billion multi because the reason

01:32:24being because people want to pay one

01:32:25price to enter a market the diligence a

01:32:28regular say that's a legit regular that

01:32:29one isn't and then they don't want to

01:32:32go and test every product in the market

01:32:34they want to know it's at a basal level

01:32:35of quality and look through it otherwise

01:32:37you have a situation where every coffee

01:32:39you get at Starbucks you need to put a

01:32:41dipstick in it to see uh you know is

01:32:43this poisonous or not right okay so

01:32:47the point is the V3 combines aspects of

01:32:50the V1 and the V2 to get like a third

01:32:52version for example with Bitcoin right

01:32:54it has aspects of gold which people talk

01:32:57about but it also has aspects of Fiat

01:32:59why you can send it across borders you

01:33:02can represent it digitally you can

01:33:03program with it and so and so forth you

01:33:05can't do any of those things with an

01:33:06inert block of gold so it's digital gold

01:33:09right it is not just a dumb

01:33:12you know throw back to V1 it's not

01:33:14competitive as V1 V2 beat V1 for a

01:33:16reason V3 takes the good aspects of V1

01:33:19and the good s was V2 to make something

01:33:21that's better than both right

01:33:23um this would be a V3 where

01:33:27yeah you don't want the totally

01:33:28unregulated market for patent medicines

01:33:31and scams and so they had a great upside

01:33:33and they had a great downside we also

01:33:35don't want this you know harmonized

01:33:37environment where unelected bureaucrats

01:33:40just impose uniformity on everything and

01:33:42no one can take any risks and it's so

01:33:45risk intolerant that it's the riskiest

01:33:48of all right because if you don't take

01:33:50small risks you end up taking the

01:33:52biggest risk which is not taking risks

01:33:53and then you you just you never explore

01:33:55anything new and you can't adapt right

01:33:57so the V3 says no regulation is bad but

01:34:01this regulation is also bad and we can

01:34:03do better with Cloud Regulators right

01:34:05International records and what would

01:34:06that look like again just to go into the

01:34:07FDA example because the reason I go into

01:34:09this in great detail is this is one of

01:34:12the most motivating things as to why we

01:34:14need new States right there's a certain

01:34:16level of innovation you can get to

01:34:17that's sub-sovereign and there's a level

01:34:19that you actually need sovereignty for

01:34:21of some kind at a minimum Sanctuary City

01:34:23for biomedicine some Governor right

01:34:26could put their state on the map by

01:34:28saying this is a Zone where let's say

01:34:31it's Texas right they say guess what

01:34:33approvals will now go through UT Austin

01:34:35we do because the thing is the reason is

01:34:37you need some name brand right for that

01:34:40that people respect locally to be the

01:34:42regulars okay we've got some scientists

01:34:44there we've got some Physicians there

01:34:45and so on so you have some reputable

01:34:47brand in this jurisdiction which is

01:34:48taking over review so you're really not

01:34:51changing that much what you are doing

01:34:53now is you're introducing the crucial

01:34:54thing of competition between Regulators

01:34:56right you might say oh this is in

01:34:58biomedicine I don't know man like you

01:35:00know bio is like really important and

01:35:02and so and the thing is people just

01:35:04don't know about this Market okay but

01:35:06basically routes outside the FDA like

01:35:09write try laws like clear labs in the

01:35:12LGT pathway like compounding pharmacies

01:35:15off-label prescription by MDS and

01:35:18countries that aren't fully harmonized

01:35:19with FDA for example you go to Germany

01:35:21for stem cells each of these things has

01:35:23been attacked by FDA so off-label people

01:35:25think it's bad right but there's a it's

01:35:27a good you know article called like

01:35:29assessing

01:35:30um the FDA by the anomaly of off-label

01:35:34prescription right I think this is by

01:35:35tabaroc which is worth reading this

01:35:37almost 20 years ago and essentially his

01:35:39point is that while off label sounds bad

01:35:41oh right it actually means that a doctor

01:35:44can prescribe a drug for some purpose

01:35:46other than what the FDA approves it for

01:35:47and that's actually the way that like

01:35:49all kinds of things

01:35:50seem to work right okay

01:35:52once you understand the degree to which

01:35:54FDA holds things back once you

01:35:56understand that they've harmonized the

01:35:58whole world I want you to understand

01:35:59that they cannot be you cannot democracy

01:36:02doesn't work in this case because

01:36:03they're not up for election you've never

01:36:05run an election on the FDA okay uh

01:36:08markets don't work because they can't be

01:36:10fired they're not like a company they

01:36:11don't go bankrupt so whether you believe

01:36:13in an electoral or market theory of

01:36:15accountability they're completely

01:36:16unaccountable and Anonymous right the

01:36:18Press isn't holding them accountable

01:36:19either right so you can only exit them

01:36:22and you need a new technique to exit

01:36:23them that can be uh outside the US you

01:36:26get places like Germany and so on to to

01:36:28allow for stem cells uh you you get

01:36:31places that allow for

01:36:34um

01:36:34biomedical treatments that the U.S is

01:36:36holding back right

01:36:38um or it's inside the U.S and you're

01:36:40having Sanctuary cities just like

01:36:41Sanctuary City they won't enforce

01:36:43Federal immigration law right so Preston

01:36:45is being sent in fact actually states

01:36:47are diverging from the federal

01:36:48government on education on gun laws on

01:36:51abortion laws on marijuana laws like if

01:36:55medical marijuana can be legal

01:36:57why can't you know like like every other

01:37:00kind of experimental drug that you might

01:37:02want to take be potentially legal right

01:37:04and you just have obviously you have

01:37:07some framework around it it's not no

01:37:09framework but finally you have choice

01:37:10you have something that's outside this

01:37:12Monopoly of the state regulator right

01:37:14again unelected and unfireable the FDA

01:37:17free zone alone I mean there's so many

01:37:19other reasons I think that we need

01:37:20Innovation on sovereignty but that alone

01:37:22is how we get to life extension

01:37:25that alone is how we get to

01:37:26transhumanism we get to brain machine

01:37:28interface we get to limber generation

01:37:31and super soldier sarum and all this

01:37:33stuff there's so much stuff that's being

01:37:34held back okay like by I mean that's why

01:37:38you ski articles constantly like

01:37:39scientists have discovered X right

01:37:41you're like

01:37:42wow that's amazing you're you're you're

01:37:44taking like reversing this guy's aging

01:37:47by like 10 years their their hair is

01:37:49re-pigmenting from from Gray to Black

01:37:51right

01:37:52um here's an example of that

01:37:54because people have to see this stuff

01:37:55because they don't believe it otherwise

01:37:57they don't have the same exposure if you

01:37:59don't see the examples outside of your

01:38:03reality of

01:38:04FDA or

01:38:06non-self-driving cars or whatever

01:38:08society that you live in it's it's

01:38:09impossible to even imagine that there

01:38:11are these other realities exactly it's

01:38:14basquiat's Point seen and unseen are you

01:38:16familiar with that I think so I I didn't

01:38:18realize that was from him but yes

01:38:19exactly like it's it's impossible to

01:38:21imagine those realities until you see it

01:38:23and then it's like this spiral of wait a

01:38:25minute that's right it's basically it's

01:38:27like you know it's basically something

01:38:28where it's like I show people so for

01:38:30example take a look at this thing that I

01:38:31just sent you one it says patient image

01:38:34pre-treatment and patient an image post

01:38:35treatment and yes exactly like you said

01:38:37it's like gray hair the man looks like

01:38:40he's in his 80s to a full head of brown

01:38:43black hair people don't understand that

01:38:45we're not like you know within 10 of

01:38:48optimal or something like that in many

01:38:50areas

01:38:52we are

01:38:53a thousand x 10 000 x 100 000x off from

01:38:57what is possible right you know people

01:38:59said the pandemic was not going to be

01:39:00something and it's like you know

01:39:01millions of people were affected by it

01:39:03like it takes years to build a train

01:39:04station in the Bay Area and it takes

01:39:06less than a day in China

01:39:08that is not a oh they're 10 faster they

01:39:12are literally a hundred X faster

01:39:14maybe a thousand X if you're talking one

01:39:16day or like let's say nine hours right

01:39:19versus a year okay that is about a

01:39:23thousand X faster it's just a totally

01:39:24different thing you know your cost by

01:39:26the way the cost for everything comes

01:39:27way down because it's now a subroutine

01:39:30you can just invoke that boom boom okay

01:39:32train station transition clone stamp

01:39:34like this right versus the completely

01:39:37Antiquated kind of thing in the physical

01:39:39world in the US and all of that is the

01:39:41state

01:39:42all of that is the state holding this

01:39:44back right and so ways to exit the state

01:39:47and gain sovereignty are how we reinvent

01:39:50the physical and in a sense by the way

01:39:51we talked about the V3 you know TL has

01:39:53talked about how we can innovate in bits

01:39:55but not in atoms right

01:39:57and what the network state is is among

01:40:00other things it's many other things but

01:40:01it is a recipe for using bits to reopen

01:40:04innovation in atoms well yeah I think I

01:40:06think that's a really important point

01:40:08because it's easy for people to see the

01:40:10exponential difference between physical

01:40:13and digital a simple example is physical

01:40:16mail can take days weeks months digital

01:40:19mail take seconds right so so they can

01:40:21see the Delta there but I do think it's

01:40:23hard for people to imagine that

01:40:25exponential Delta within the physical

01:40:27world because it feels slower inherently

01:40:30but I think the train station example is

01:40:33showcasing that yeah it's not going to

01:40:34happen in seconds but there is a massive

01:40:37Delta between what we have in certain

01:40:38Arenas and what we could have yes so you

01:40:41know a friend of mine when I showed him

01:40:43those videos he's like okay you reset my

01:40:46belief in what is possible Right This is

01:40:49senior executive at a trillion dollar

01:40:52company

01:40:54didn't know and it was basically like

01:40:56you know he's like this is why we're

01:40:58doing bits and so and so I'm like atoms

01:41:00are actually possible

01:41:03in other places and times right so other

01:41:06places so I'm showing China here where

01:41:08there's a thousand X there's another

01:41:09link that's worth looking at which is

01:41:11Patrick Collison fast you know

01:41:14patrickcollison.com front slash fast

01:41:16right that's also worth putting up on

01:41:18screen where he goes to other times and

01:41:20shows that the US used to be much faster

01:41:23in building things and by the way you

01:41:25know people will say oh China's

01:41:26authoritarian that's why I can build

01:41:28fast we're a democracy we you know

01:41:30they're basically making a virtue out of

01:41:31incompetence right that's actually not

01:41:33the case because quote unquote the US

01:41:36was a democracy I mean if you think the

01:41:37U.S was a democracy mid-century it was

01:41:39able to build fast then I actually do

01:41:41argue that part of the nature of the

01:41:42political system but it's not

01:41:43necessarily democracy versus

01:41:45authoritarian and in fact actually the

01:41:47Democracy of the mid 20th century

01:41:49America was quite authoritarian right

01:41:51democracy like capitalism or

01:41:53Christianity or communism is so

01:41:55capacious a term that can mean both X

01:41:57and its opposite communism for example

01:41:59meant kill all the capitalists and then

01:42:01it means capitalists can be in the

01:42:02Communist Party right Christianity meant

01:42:04tear down the Roman Empire and it also

01:42:06eventually meant have Christian Kings

01:42:08and build a Holy Roman Empire like

01:42:10democracy means tons of different things

01:42:12over time periods like the ancient

01:42:14Greeks thought democracy uh there's a

01:42:16great book called uh

01:42:18against elections the case for democracy

01:42:20it's a hilarious title okay and it

01:42:22basically says that the ancient Greeks

01:42:25they use a mechanism called sortition

01:42:27rather than elections do you know what

01:42:28that is

01:42:29it's like no random selection from the

01:42:32population and any they drew lots and

01:42:36anybody so so your president could be

01:42:38anybody from the community what did that

01:42:40do it eliminated the whole process of

01:42:41running for office and what it also did

01:42:44is it kind of ensured that you had to

01:42:46maintain a high level of virtue in your

01:42:48community and actually a high level of

01:42:50equality because anybody could be the

01:42:53leader so you know right and you know

01:42:56you drew Lots right and you know at

01:42:58first it seems like a crazy system

01:43:00but the awesome thing about history is

01:43:03you know people estimate there's a

01:43:04hundred billion people who've ever lived

01:43:06right you have one life and so just like

01:43:09we look at other places in the galaxy

01:43:12and we know what our star system looks

01:43:14like but there's like Dual Star systems

01:43:16and black holes all these crazy things

01:43:18in the huge expanse in in space there's

01:43:21this enormous expanse in time or there's

01:43:24other configurations of humans that are

01:43:26totally counterintuitive to our current

01:43:28orientation we think we know this

01:43:30current state well it doesn't work

01:43:31anymore but let's say this current state

01:43:33of affairs kind of works at least the

01:43:35ones we've already always known over our

01:43:37tiny window of 20 or 30 or 40 years on

01:43:40the world but when you take take the 100

01:43:42billion human lifetimes and look at all

01:43:44these other configurations like other

01:43:45star systems you're like oh that's how

01:43:47elections used to work that's how

01:43:48regulation used to work that's how it

01:43:50worked here you can pick little

01:43:51subroutines from there and say this was

01:43:54compatible with human nature back then

01:43:56and maybe we can update it and make it

01:43:58work in the present day one one thing

01:44:00that you brought up which is important

01:44:01is this idea that there there has to be

01:44:04the potential for a challenger so like

01:44:07you know if you take the taxi example

01:44:09before it's like yeah I could choose

01:44:11person A's taxi or person B's taxi but I

01:44:13didn't have an alternative outside of

01:44:15the taxi system and something that's

01:44:16coming to mind is as we talked about the

01:44:18lines drawn around the world or at least

01:44:20within our lifetime or let's say in my

01:44:22lifetime they've been mostly fixed

01:44:24obviously outliers um but mostly fixed

01:44:26and to me that that reminds me of this

01:44:29idea that there there are many people

01:44:31around the world who who just assume

01:44:32that there is no Challenger

01:44:34um and and we've seen that competition

01:44:37drives innovation in many domains and so

01:44:39it's almost fascinating to just imagine

01:44:43that we can get to potentially

01:44:46exponentially better societies

01:44:48if we do have Challengers but there's

01:44:50almost like this underlying assumption

01:44:52that there aren't there are Challengers

01:44:54within the societies that we have but

01:44:56not Challengers to the societies I mean

01:44:59just to talk about this for a second

01:45:00like the U.S establishment is currently

01:45:03fighting has been fighting simultaneous

01:45:05conflicts with uh Tech with half its

01:45:09population with Russia with China with

01:45:12in to a lesser extent with Israel India

01:45:16Hungary France Brazil with the

01:45:19brexiteers in Britain

01:45:22um with web 3 now and with crypto like

01:45:25it's just fighting on so many different

01:45:27fronts at the same time

01:45:29at the same point it is printing tons of

01:45:32money and in many ways its state

01:45:34capacity has fallen through the floor

01:45:36where SF takes 20 years to reopen a

01:45:38bathroom or you know I had this thread

01:45:40where it's like a trillion dollar

01:45:42disaster for the F-35 and like the

01:45:45Zumwalt this is you know like this uh

01:45:48Navy ship and that's a disaster and uh

01:45:51the Ford class carrier another multiple

01:45:52like does that incredibly expensive

01:45:55things that we just sort of were numb to

01:45:57it because you see another 100 billion

01:45:58dollars here 100 billion dollars there a

01:46:00trillion dollars here a stimulus here

01:46:02it's just money being thrown down a rat

01:46:05hole it's like a kid who I mean one of

01:46:08my points you know the article I wrote

01:46:09called uh founding versus inheriting one

01:46:12really good way of thinking about the

01:46:14current U.S government and the US

01:46:15establishment really because more than

01:46:16just the US government the reason that

01:46:20it doesn't unders it can't execute

01:46:22partly because it hasn't had competition

01:46:24but partly because it's intentionally

01:46:26inherent a monopoly from better men if

01:46:29you think about the difference think

01:46:30about a Founder who sets up a factory

01:46:32okay they pass it down to the air who

01:46:34passes it down and it's just cranking

01:46:36out widgets and churning out money and

01:46:37it's a great grandson or whatever all

01:46:39the founders narrow the factory okay one

01:46:42day and so it seems like the thing is

01:46:44working it's you know Dupont brand

01:46:46Widgets or something like that right and

01:46:48the great great grandson has the famous

01:46:50name and you know he's got the money and

01:46:54everybody looks at him legally as a

01:46:55legitimate heir of that founder because

01:46:58hey look at here's all the documents the

01:47:00chain of custody or whatever right then

01:47:02one fine day that factory has to switch

01:47:04from making widgets to making masks or

01:47:09uh like servers or something new it has

01:47:12to do something new this great grandson

01:47:13does not have the skill of the founder

01:47:15they cannot change the assembly line

01:47:17they don't know what they're doing

01:47:18neither do the career managers who have

01:47:21been hired over the time like the

01:47:23ability to do something from scratch to

01:47:25do something new that was the domain of

01:47:27the founder so all these people are just

01:47:29running systems that men better than

01:47:32themselves set up years and years ago

01:47:34right they're not the founders of The

01:47:37Heirs and so we understand this within

01:47:39the context of a factory that the like

01:47:42great great grandson of Rockefeller or

01:47:44Dupont or whatever is not Rockefeller

01:47:46Dupont

01:47:48um I mean in one sense like you know

01:47:49half your genes go to your child and

01:47:52then half again and half more

01:47:53Generations you go down it's not like

01:47:55the same person anymore it's like one

01:47:57one half to the nth power and generation

01:47:59sound right

01:48:01so not the same person but they are

01:48:04legally they're legitimate they're just

01:48:06not competent they were selected for

01:48:08legitimacy but not competence right

01:48:11and so what you want to do now

01:48:13conversely if you select for competence

01:48:15but not legitimacy that's like someone

01:48:16taking over the factory blah blah blah

01:48:19hostile takeover or not even hostile

01:48:20taker that's at least a legal thing like

01:48:22seizing the factory maybe they're

01:48:24actually good at operating it but

01:48:25they're considered illegitimate the

01:48:26studies like you just stole it from them

01:48:28blah blah okay that's like for example

01:48:30nationalization of oil fields and stuff

01:48:32like that you know with various

01:48:34Independence movements this kind of

01:48:35thing so so you want is both legitimate

01:48:38and competent and simply just

01:48:39identifying that as an axis right

01:48:42legitimate and competent well that's why

01:48:44you need to have refoundings because you

01:48:47know nobody would have elected a lawn to

01:48:51run

01:48:52Tesla or elected Mark Zuckerberg to go

01:48:54and run you know at 30 something years

01:48:56old to run a 3.6 billion communication

01:48:59Network had he he could only have proved

01:49:01it by doing it by founding it right from

01:49:03scratch so the from scratch aspect is so

01:49:06ridiculously important

01:49:07and that relates to all of our current

01:49:09institutions because there are decades

01:49:11in some cases hundreds of years old and

01:49:14they're just built for a different time

01:49:15and by better men the the people today

01:49:17you know like George Washington

01:49:18organized like the armies of the United

01:49:21States from scratch right the NYPD was

01:49:23at one point organized from scratch

01:49:24right even FDA or whatever is organized

01:49:26from scratch at one point right these

01:49:28organizations are now so many

01:49:30generations down that they're just

01:49:32inherited by heirs okay and sometimes

01:49:35they're literal errors in the Senate and

01:49:36I talk about this in the book in the

01:49:38founding versus inheriting chapter I

01:49:40just pasted in here but sometimes

01:49:41they're little literal errors in the

01:49:43sense of like a Dupont or a Rockefeller

01:49:45or you know like salzburger who's

01:49:47inherited the New York Times from his

01:49:49father's father's father's father's

01:49:50father right likes like five generations

01:49:53um and by the way just on that I do talk

01:49:54about that in the book it's like there's

01:49:56this great website that you should check

01:49:58out it's called Tech journalism is less

01:50:00diverse than tech.com and the point

01:50:03being that actually the journals who

01:50:06endlessly talk about tech diversity and

01:50:08so it's a far less diverse than Tech

01:50:10itself right A lot of these Tech

01:50:12journalists are basically employees of

01:50:14some East Coast nepotist who has

01:50:16inherited millions of dollars and or a

01:50:18newspaper and is funding their whole

01:50:19operation so their meritless nepotists

01:50:21and or employees thereof who are

01:50:24attacking the self-made right and once

01:50:26you see that you're like oh

01:50:28these these journals are basically like

01:50:30dogs on the leash they're hitmen for old

01:50:32money right assassins for the

01:50:34establishment they have no legitimacy

01:50:35whatsoever it's literally old money

01:50:37attacking new money the Merit list

01:50:39attacking the Merit you know the

01:50:41meritocracy or the more meritocratic as

01:50:44privileged it's like the privilege to

01:50:45you know it's like actually this amazing

01:50:47inversion when you when you apply that

01:50:49lens to it

01:50:50the thing is this entire establishment

01:50:52has you know it's declining legitimacy

01:50:54but it has legitimacy it doesn't have

01:50:56competence and so it can't innovate

01:50:58because it's not selected for Founders

01:50:59like if you're a Founder but you go to

01:51:02the US government or the U.S

01:51:03establishment no that the whole point is

01:51:05you can't found anything you can like

01:51:07your career ambition is to try to paste

01:51:10some language into an 1100 page Bill the

01:51:13night before it gets approved in a vote

01:51:16where nobody reads it right like and

01:51:18it's deployed to the entire country it's

01:51:20imagine if like that's how like Google

01:51:22was coded some giant political meeting

01:51:25blah blah and someone like Payson some

01:51:27JavaScript obviously that could be

01:51:28malware obviously it could be

01:51:30self-interested obviously that's not

01:51:32like the way to test something to roll

01:51:33it out to deploy it like future

01:51:35historians will look at our current time

01:51:37and these institutions as so insane in

01:51:41many ways like just one example is the

01:51:43thing I just mentioned where you're

01:51:44deploying code to 300 million people

01:51:46that you haven't read you haven't tested

01:51:48in the sandbox you haven't got any you

01:51:51know room for iteration the people who

01:51:54are responsible for writing it aren't

01:51:55responsible for implementing it it's

01:51:57like totally broken on that level on

01:51:59another level you're voting for somebody

01:52:02and the contract isn't binding they give

01:52:05some campaign promise they say they're

01:52:06going to do something they're not going

01:52:07to do it it's literally like buying

01:52:09something that's labeled milk and

01:52:10getting orange juice

01:52:12that's fraud in the commercial you know

01:52:14in the commercial setting that's fraud

01:52:15right so electoral fraud is when I mean

01:52:18the most routinized version of it is

01:52:21when a politician says they're going to

01:52:22do acts gets your vote on that basis and

01:52:24does why then people say oh that's

01:52:26representative democracy there like well

01:52:28your vote literally didn't count

01:52:30and your vote doesn't count there's

01:52:32literally no you have no recourse

01:52:33they've got like where it's you know

01:52:35some form of immunity right basically

01:52:37you cannot sue them for not voting your

01:52:38way right so it's all completely

01:52:40symbolic

01:52:41and the alternative I mean those are

01:52:43just like two examples of like

01:52:44ridiculous examples of how bad the

01:52:46current system is

01:52:47and so you cannot fix that system you

01:52:50have to figure out a way to get outside

01:52:51it why do you want to get outside well I

01:52:53mentioned the FDA is a huge motivation

01:52:55but there's lots of others you want

01:52:56self-driving you're going to need

01:52:57sovereignty do you want drone delivery

01:52:59you're going to need some form of

01:53:00sovereignty do you want like you know to

01:53:02be able to have nuclear power you're

01:53:05probably going to need some form of

01:53:05society like Wyoming is pushing some of

01:53:07this there's there's good things

01:53:08happening in some places they're like

01:53:09accelerating it you want to innovate in

01:53:11the physical world you're going to need

01:53:12some form of sovereignty one of the big

01:53:13recipes of the network state is not just

01:53:15say Teal's correct observation you can

01:53:18innovate in bits you can't innovate in

01:53:19atoms you can build a billion dollar

01:53:21Business Online you need a billion

01:53:22permits to build a shed in San Francisco

01:53:23that is true we reconcile that tension

01:53:27by using bits to innovate in atoms by

01:53:29building this aligned Community online

01:53:31and the alignment is ridiculously

01:53:32important they need to do the dance

01:53:33right they need to coordinate and

01:53:35choreograph together you need to be able

01:53:36to if they can't all hit like on

01:53:39something they literally can't do

01:53:40anything else but if they can do that

01:53:41then they might be able to do a lot of

01:53:42other things you've turned them into a

01:53:43multicellular organism right the content

01:53:45is also really important it's not just

01:53:47the code it's community and the content

01:53:48as well as the code right so all the

01:53:51messaging they're putting out the

01:53:52Declaration of Independence it actually

01:53:53had that thing at the beginning which

01:53:55says with it with an eye towards the

01:53:58opinion of all men right actually here

01:54:00was the Declaration Preamble I just want

01:54:02to get that right when in the course of

01:54:04human events it becomes necessary for

01:54:05when people dissolve the political bans

01:54:07which have connected them with another

01:54:08uh you know a decent respect to the

01:54:11opinions of mankind requires that they

01:54:12should declare the causes which impel

01:54:14them to the separation okay

01:54:16that's a really critical thing

01:54:18essentially something that tech people

01:54:21underestimate and undervalue is that

01:54:24something like 10 or 20 or 30 percent of

01:54:28your actions you need to allocate like

01:54:30at the header just like HTTP headers you

01:54:32need to allocate space for the moral

01:54:34justification for what you're doing and

01:54:36almost everything you're doing basically

01:54:38let's just say first order everything

01:54:39right it's almost like I'm doing this

01:54:41because and then you do it for example

01:54:43if you're fighting back on Twitter

01:54:46you might think that everybody has seen

01:54:49the full context of the whatever number

01:54:52of tweets and attacks and so on back and

01:54:54forth you basically have to assume that

01:54:56most people are coming in with

01:54:57absolutely zero context and in your

01:54:59limited space you need to include the

01:55:01reason that this person you know like

01:55:05this person attacked you in the first

01:55:07place you're defending yourself

01:55:09and then the attack so literally the

01:55:11this very spare space sphere capacity

01:55:13you have there you have to put your

01:55:15justification for the attack or the

01:55:17counter attack or the defense before you

01:55:19actually do the defense right in the

01:55:21same way for every product that moral

01:55:23justification we are doing this because

01:55:24X is good and Y is bad right that is

01:55:27there and that is like you know just

01:55:29baked in it's like it's like whether

01:55:31it's a logo or it's a slogan or it's a

01:55:34mission statement or it's a catechism or

01:55:37whatever you want to call I call it the

01:55:38one commandment right

01:55:40which is your moral differentiation from

01:55:42society at Large

01:55:43dad tells you okay we are you know

01:55:47studies large has gotten something wrong

01:55:48we're going to get it right and

01:55:51to get it right we're going to need to

01:55:52shape the physical world so you use bits

01:55:54to come to consensus and you say this

01:55:57group is now aligned we need

01:55:59self-driving why because the current

01:56:02nhtsa is an Abomination the current

01:56:04thing of tens of thousands of automobile

01:56:06debts a year is an Abomination we have

01:56:08the technology to fix it we can't just

01:56:10retrofit the roads necessarily why

01:56:13because it's like trying to send maybe

01:56:15electoral power over a water line okay

01:56:17the current roads were not built for

01:56:19self-driving if you built a town for

01:56:21self-driving it would look totally

01:56:22different you would have uh the roads

01:56:25would have sensors instrumented there

01:56:26they might be segregated farther away

01:56:28from Human traffic you wouldn't have

01:56:30like human Crossings of the roads all

01:56:32kinds of things you can engineer your

01:56:33way out of the problem where you just

01:56:36assume the road is completely

01:56:37self-driving everything changes in terms

01:56:39of an engineering thing you're not

01:56:40trying to send electoral power over

01:56:41water line that's one of the reasons

01:56:43self-driving is so hard is you have to

01:56:44assume all of this Legacy baggage there

01:56:47if you could take that away it could be

01:56:49easy and in fact we know this to be the

01:56:50case because guys like Rio Tinto these

01:56:53are this is a huge mining conglomerate

01:56:54even as far back as like 2013 on closed

01:56:58roads on private mines that they were

01:57:00running when they're the only ones who

01:57:02are running the the miners and trucks

01:57:05they just run them all from Perth in

01:57:07Australia they can run the mine remotely

01:57:09okay and move the things around because

01:57:11there's no one else on the road or

01:57:12because it's a private road where they

01:57:14know all the all the cars on it right

01:57:15this is a great example of self-driving

01:57:17car Zone you have this moral commandment

01:57:18you align people with their bits

01:57:21you get that alignment and then they go

01:57:23and take physical territory and they

01:57:25just relentlessly negotiate with enough

01:57:27governments until they get a sanctuary

01:57:28City or they get a deharmonized Zone and

01:57:31they don't just replace it with nothing

01:57:32and replace with a new regulatory

01:57:33Paradigm one clarifying question so when

01:57:35you say that they develop their own

01:57:36regulatory framework is that just using

01:57:39the example of self-driving is that just

01:57:41around self-driving or is the intention

01:57:44that they regulate or re-regulate

01:57:46everything from education to taxes Etc

01:57:49or is it embedded right so the one

01:57:51commanded concept is I think it's a it's

01:57:54a it's a useful thing in the book it's

01:57:55actually one of the more important

01:57:56things in the book and the concept is

01:57:58when you talk about morality right uh so

01:58:01I'll get the short version of the longer

01:58:03version the short version is you cannot

01:58:04change everything Society at once but

01:58:06you can also not give up completely on

01:58:08societal change so just like a startup

01:58:10sets out to fix one thing right in the

01:58:13market

01:58:14a startup Society sets out to fix one

01:58:19moral failing of society

01:58:22okay so you're not saying okay uh

01:58:26profitable unprofitable you're saying

01:58:28good bad

01:58:30were you starting with a moral premise

01:58:31it's not a market premise this is really

01:58:33important like a lot of dows for example

01:58:36we'll start with a market premise and

01:58:38they'll be like hey you can all make

01:58:39money come here right and um you know

01:58:42what it reminds me of is uh that scene

01:58:44from idiocracy you know the guy's like

01:58:46you like sex and money too wow me too

01:58:50right like you know it's like these are

01:58:52these are like the human universals

01:58:53where there's absolutely no Community

01:58:55there people are just there for the

01:58:57money they're there when air drop right

01:58:59when token it's like joking but it's

01:59:00like you know dogs like waiting for some

01:59:03scraps and those grab the scrap and then

01:59:04run off or whatever right and so there's

01:59:07nothing in that's not a real Community

01:59:08that's just a bunch of people who are

01:59:10just there for like an airdrop or

01:59:12something like that right so join a

01:59:13bunch of discords for the airdrop or

01:59:15whatever right so starting money first

01:59:16is wrong right money comes it's a

01:59:20superstructure on top of the community

01:59:23okay it's a way for the community to

01:59:25represent its debits and credits between

01:59:27each other and that's why you see a

01:59:29bunch of these coins just dropped to

01:59:30zero because there's no true Community

01:59:31there's speculation on whether they

01:59:33build a community and then it drops to

01:59:34zero because they don't build a

01:59:35community one way of thinking about it

01:59:37is

01:59:38um so one commandment what's what are

01:59:39examples of one commandment so I

01:59:40mentioned the

01:59:41um the digital Sabbath example right uh

01:59:44where you're saying look technology is

01:59:47uh

01:59:49technology is good but you can have too

01:59:51much of a good thing just like you know

01:59:53highways I think the internal combustion

01:59:55engine is good cars are good generally I

01:59:57mean Electric engines are even better

01:59:58whatever but you could overdo it where

02:00:01uh you know San Francisco for example

02:00:03had a highway that blocked access to the

02:00:05waterfront

02:00:06and so you had overdone it so you you

02:00:08say I'm not against cars I want a V3

02:00:11that takes away that highway so we have

02:00:13a walkable Waterfront

02:00:16um and so in the same way you're like

02:00:17look I'm pro-internet but I'm not

02:00:18pro-internet all the time with all the

02:00:20notifications so we have community

02:00:21support and we say we're offline 12

02:00:23hours a day and just internet is cut 12

02:00:25hours today and everybody's now just

02:00:27like the weekend synchronizes people and

02:00:29they're like okay we have Saturday and

02:00:31Sunday off right the Soviet Union

02:00:33actually tried making it so that they

02:00:35could work seven days a week so you had

02:00:38Mondays and and Tuesdays off and

02:00:41somebody else said Tuesdays and

02:00:42Wednesdays and somebody else said

02:00:43Wednesdays and Thursdays they tried

02:00:44these kinds of experiments okay and the

02:00:46problem is that there's a utility of

02:00:48everybody knowing that Saturday and

02:00:50Sunday are off generally means you don't

02:00:52have the coordination imagine you have

02:00:53to schedule your weekend like that and

02:00:55you could never overlap with somebody

02:00:56else okay so coordination and everybody

02:00:59picking the same defaults totally

02:01:01changes things once you have everybody

02:01:03accept in this community that I'm

02:01:04offline 9 pm to 9am

02:01:07guess what like that changes the

02:01:09community okay hey guys let's go and you

02:01:12know I'll like we'll go for a run or or

02:01:14you know

02:01:16um you know we're all gonna uh have a

02:01:18Outdoors dinner or something like that I

02:01:20don't know you could figure out the

02:01:22exact timing and maybe on the weekends

02:01:24it's actually like you're offline 12 p.m

02:01:26you know like an entire day you're off

02:01:28or something like that right and this is

02:01:31offline day and we're gonna all do

02:01:32things right and so once you have that

02:01:34coordination just like the weekend new

02:01:36things arise out of that when you can

02:01:37assume everybody's points at the same

02:01:39thing you know literally new societal

02:01:41adaptations arise

02:01:42and the thing about this is

02:01:44money runs out but a moral premise

02:01:47doesn't

02:01:48being part of that Community if if

02:01:51digital Sabbath is important to you

02:01:52being offline some of the day is

02:01:54important to you if you know like just

02:01:56okay everybody knows I'm offline and

02:01:59it's okay that I'm offline and as this

02:02:01community expands like more and more

02:02:03societal conventions people know not to

02:02:05email you then if you're offline by the

02:02:07way 9 pm to 9am

02:02:0995 of jobs will be fine right like some

02:02:12jobs or whatever you need to be a site

02:02:13reliability engineer or something like

02:02:14that maybe it's more like more than 95

02:02:16but like most jobs don't expect you you

02:02:19know that's only like plus four hours or

02:02:20something like that relative to where

02:02:22normal working times are uh because

02:02:23people expect you to be asleep eight

02:02:25hours something like that so 9 pm to 9

02:02:27A.M you should be pretty much okay even

02:02:29outside your Society but as it grows it

02:02:31becomes a million people it's a totally

02:02:33different world you know like

02:02:36um all kinds of things get scheduled for

02:02:37offline time for sunlight time the

02:02:39coordination thing this is a resource

02:02:41that doesn't run out

02:02:42money Runs Out

02:02:44morality and moral premise doesn't this

02:02:46is differentiated from the outside world

02:02:47in like a permanent and persistent

02:02:49interesting way it's like a Wellspring

02:02:50that doesn't run out right another

02:02:52example keto kosher okay so you've got a

02:02:55network archipelago by my definition so

02:02:57you don't just have an online community

02:02:59you've crowdfunded territory and you're

02:03:02treating sugar Like Cocaine okay you're

02:03:05interditing it at the border you're

02:03:07literally not allowing so every store

02:03:10and every restaurant

02:03:11doesn't is not filled with high fructose

02:03:14corn syrup and chocolates and you know

02:03:17because we have it you have these really

02:03:19sophisticated corporations that have set

02:03:22it up so that when you're at the

02:03:25checkout line for something you're

02:03:26hitting the face for five minutes with

02:03:28some you know chewy chocolate like you

02:03:31know sugary kind of thing right so the

02:03:34point is like to wear down your

02:03:35resistance you just want to be on a diet

02:03:37or something and avoid sugar but it's

02:03:39like literally you know these experts

02:03:42from Madison Avenue have set up

02:03:43something to be maximally tempting to

02:03:45you and put it in the checkout line so

02:03:47you're looking at it the whole time

02:03:48right so you're trying to whittle it

02:03:50down right against that giant

02:03:52Corporation your community collectively

02:03:55can provide some resistance

02:03:56by setting the defaults in a different

02:03:58way right this is now you know what I'm

02:04:00describing there is like sort of outside

02:04:01of the normal like left right kind of

02:04:03spectrum right because you're talking

02:04:05about a community that's in the interest

02:04:06of the community it's neither uh you

02:04:08know it's not either left or right it's

02:04:09like it's basically something which is

02:04:10just for what the community's values are

02:04:12right and what they would do is they'd

02:04:14say okay no sugar at the border just not

02:04:16there you have healthy food you have

02:04:19lettuce you have you have you have

02:04:20fruits you have tomatoes you have other

02:04:23kinds of stuff every meal is healthy

02:04:25every meal that somebody's you know you

02:04:26don't have to ask what are your dietary

02:04:27restrictions everybody's now snapped to

02:04:29Grid it's not I'm offline 9 P.M to 9 A.M

02:04:32it is uh I am Snapchat grid on a

02:04:35different thing which is I'm either full

02:04:36keto or I'm just very low sugar or some

02:04:39something like that you can imagine

02:04:40variance of this there's keto kosher

02:04:42there's the Paleo people there's the

02:04:44carnivorous Community you could also

02:04:45have the vegan Village which is as

02:04:47different from the carnivorous Community

02:04:49as

02:04:51um both are from mainstream Society but

02:04:53I would bet that both the vegan Village

02:04:55and the carnival Community would both be

02:04:57far healthier

02:04:59than you know McDonald's eating

02:05:02mainstream America sure I mean like

02:05:04they're quite different from each other

02:05:05but those are both self vegan Villages

02:05:07they're eating lettuce and tomatoes and

02:05:09stuff carnivorous they're eating at

02:05:10least they're eating like real meat and

02:05:12stuff but they're not eating this

02:05:13processed horrible stuff right

02:05:17and so probably 20 pounds light or 30

02:05:18pounds lighter okay and this again this

02:05:21is a resource that doesn't run out

02:05:23when you join that community that moral

02:05:25premise

02:05:26where you have inverted something that

02:05:28Society said was good you're saying it's

02:05:30bad study said is good or at least

02:05:32acceptable to have sugar you're saying

02:05:33it's actually morally bad and everybody

02:05:35in your community agrees with that so

02:05:36you get social support for that the

02:05:38defaults are set for that you literally

02:05:39need to travel outside of your day

02:05:40outside the town to go and pick it up

02:05:42it's literally like getting drugs right

02:05:43so you've now got several levels of

02:05:46defense and

02:05:48this is again it's morality focused

02:05:51right and you know what's interesting

02:05:53about this by the way just to put it on

02:05:55uh to relate to something else Mike

02:05:57Moritz uh you know famous investor at

02:05:59Sequoia he's like quasi retired now

02:06:01famous guy and you know I uh he has this

02:06:04saying which I think is very clever

02:06:07that all of you know sequoia's best

02:06:11startups are you know have they

02:06:12satisfied one of the seven deadly sins

02:06:13okay so it's like uh

02:06:17sloth or gluttony Pride lust Etc right

02:06:22and what he means by that is it's really

02:06:25hard to build a company

02:06:26and so you need to satisfy some sort of

02:06:28visceral drive right the more

02:06:31intellectual the more academic the more

02:06:33idealistic one's view of human nature

02:06:35like we will all gather to deliberate on

02:06:37X right the less likely that is going to

02:06:40uh be a thing right

02:06:43um not impossible but less likely and so

02:06:45once you start doing this you can

02:06:47actually take a lot of startups and you

02:06:49can map them Tinder is lost uh Twitter

02:06:52is wrath Instagram is pride and so on

02:06:55and so forth right ubereats is like

02:06:57gluttony right

02:06:58um and many things productivity apps are

02:07:01arguably sloth or whatever right because

02:07:02that it is hard to build a company and

02:07:04you do want to align it to a visceral

02:07:05Drive the problem is that the seven

02:07:07deadly sins are sins for a reason

02:07:09because you can overdo it right the

02:07:12reason they're sins is they all relate

02:07:14to lack of self-control

02:07:15and the and when you have lack of

02:07:18self-control well that's bad in various

02:07:21ways you're fat you're not on a diet or

02:07:23something like that you spend too much

02:07:24money you know you get mad when you

02:07:26shouldn't get mad like not being in

02:07:28control yourself often means if you

02:07:30don't have self-control other control is

02:07:32imposed on you others will control you

02:07:33right if you don't control yourself

02:07:34others will control you in some way

02:07:35which is bad the other issue is that

02:07:37once these companies get really big

02:07:39they're no longer simply like fighting

02:07:41for survival and they have this official

02:07:43Drive instead they're kind of actually

02:07:44creating the deadly sin Netflix you know

02:07:46is this is an offhand comment I'm not

02:07:48like holding it against them or whatever

02:07:49but they did say something like

02:07:51Netflix is competing with like having

02:07:54wine with your wife

02:07:55right they're competing for your time

02:07:57yeah but they said attention that you

02:07:59have yeah yeah it's like this famous

02:08:01quote it's like competing for all of

02:08:03your time including like wine with your

02:08:05spouse or something like that it's meant

02:08:06to be tongue-in-cheek but it's also true

02:08:08it's like people would rather have that

02:08:10than Netflix most of the time right like

02:08:12you know maybe once in a while you watch

02:08:14a movie or something but so the issue is

02:08:15that these companies once they get to a

02:08:17certain level are exacerbating genuine

02:08:19like sins right and in many ways America

02:08:21has become like uh not just America the

02:08:23west where lots of the world has become

02:08:25like a sinful Society in that sense

02:08:27right where people are being pushed out

02:08:29of their desired

02:08:31like self-control by these companies

02:08:34that are pulling them in these

02:08:35directions for private profit right and

02:08:38now again I'm like you're like wow this

02:08:39is a really different tone from you I

02:08:40thought you're like a super capitalist

02:08:42pro-profit VC kind of person I am but

02:08:45I'm also really fundamentally a

02:08:47community person with you know both with

02:08:50capitalism democracy by the way are

02:08:51tools or conflict resolution tools you

02:08:53know democracy is elections capitalism

02:08:55is markets but like within a family or

02:08:58even within a company or a community not

02:09:01everything is an election or an auction

02:09:03many things are just a decision that is

02:09:06arrived at organically where people are

02:09:08just aligned they're harmonious you know

02:09:10it doesn't have to be like it's it's a

02:09:12conflict where you've got multiple

02:09:13competing options between election you

02:09:15need to have an auction because you know

02:09:16like people really want this they want

02:09:17to bid on it lots of things can be

02:09:19allocated by Community if you have a

02:09:20real Community what's the opposite of

02:09:22the seven deadly sins well keto kosher

02:09:24is the opposite of gluttony right it's

02:09:26satiety right digital Sabbath is like

02:09:30um it's opposite of several things but

02:09:31it's probably the opposite of like wrath

02:09:33you're not getting mad on Twitter it's

02:09:34opposite of sloth you're getting out of

02:09:35the house right rather than being you

02:09:37know online all the time and so now the

02:09:40opposite in some ways the startup

02:09:41company is saying look it's hard to

02:09:44build a startup so we we have this

02:09:45visceral Drive they're satisfying here

02:09:48what we do is we actually flip it and

02:09:50probably you could take the seven

02:09:51cardinal virtues and build a startup

02:09:54Society on this each of the seven

02:09:56Cardinal bushes you invert the Moritz

02:09:58thing right and again I'm not critiquing

02:10:00Mike here like his his framework is a

02:10:03good framework in the sense of

02:10:04satisfying those visceral desires but

02:10:06any good thing can be overdone okay and

02:10:08I think we've overdone it in some ways

02:10:09how do you bring it back these startup

02:10:12societies as opposed to Sharp companies

02:10:13have a moral Innovation that may start

02:10:16with the seven cardinal virtues or

02:10:17there's other things that are like this

02:10:18in other religions seven current which

02:10:20is from Catholicism but there's other

02:10:21religious kind of things you take one of

02:10:23those and you're like keto kosher is

02:10:25attacking the gluttony problem how are

02:10:26we doing this the community is giving

02:10:28you support our one commandment is sugar

02:10:30is bad right

02:10:31and then that one commandment by the way

02:10:34leads to other things if sugar is bad

02:10:36continuous glucose monitoring might be

02:10:38good

02:10:39so everybody gets CGM meters and now

02:10:41you're snapped to Grid in a different

02:10:42way you can assume everybody in the

02:10:44society a thousand people ten thousand

02:10:46people a hundred thousand people have

02:10:47continuous glucosponders and maybe they

02:10:50all opt in and some privacy preserving

02:10:52data sharing way to say here is the

02:10:54glucose response of you know when I eat

02:10:56lettuce I get this result then you go

02:10:58further down the tech tree hey I'm not

02:10:59just monitoring glucose I'm monitoring

02:11:01my vitamin D levels and this level and

02:11:02that level so you get a Quantified

02:11:04self-community out of that right so once

02:11:06you have that moral Innovation the moral

02:11:08Innovation actually enables the

02:11:09technological innovation

02:11:11this is something that we've sort of

02:11:13Forgotten because what's happened in

02:11:14modern society is the technological

02:11:17progressives and the political

02:11:18progressives have separated and the

02:11:20moral innovators who are coming up with

02:11:22new slogans online are different than

02:11:24the people who are making new

02:11:25technologies in the past that was

02:11:27actually one movement for example Public

02:11:29Health right in the early 1900s the

02:11:32moral Innovation was like cleanliness is

02:11:34Next to Godliness let's not all be

02:11:35filthy and so on the technical

02:11:36Innovation were like sewers right hand

02:11:39washing and all that type of stuff right

02:11:40and those two things went hand in hand

02:11:42that moral Innovation doesn't cost you

02:11:45anything

02:11:46but it does mean you actually have to be

02:11:48concrete about what you believe in that

02:11:50is different than Society at large and

02:11:52I'm not saying come up with your own Ten

02:11:54Commandments and your whole new religion

02:11:55I am saying however one commandment just

02:11:58like a focused startup has one thing you

02:12:00have one commandment like sugar is bad

02:12:01and then you can take that you build a

02:12:02community out of that and then you'll

02:12:03get your second and third and fourth

02:12:05derivation for that like the CGM stuff

02:12:07and so on that comes out of it right and

02:12:08that's just one example but in this

02:12:10fashion

02:12:11everybody has one thing that they think

02:12:13or maybe a few things but often they can

02:12:15identify one thing they think of is like

02:12:16the problem with U.S society like they

02:12:18might say people are gambling too much

02:12:20on coins and assets and so on and so

02:12:23forth they might say people are eating

02:12:24too much or or people are too mad online

02:12:26they're canceling each other or they're

02:12:28too lazy and they're not fit or or

02:12:30something a lot of these things line up

02:12:31with the cardinal virtues thing I was

02:12:32talking about right or Tinder encourages

02:12:34like bad personal relationships and we

02:12:37need something that's you know like much

02:12:38higher commitment level and much more

02:12:40courting beforehand right everybody has

02:12:42some critique of society like this and

02:12:44now you can be president of your own

02:12:46star of society okay you can start

02:12:48solving that problem because you set up

02:12:50your shingle your one commandment you

02:12:52have your whole set of graphs and charts

02:12:54all your historical arguments that say

02:12:56why you actually think this is bad

02:12:58you're willing to put this at the top of

02:12:59your Twitter profile and defend this in

02:13:01public okay because people will the

02:13:03thing is you're arguing Society is wrong

02:13:05right you're arguing you are right

02:13:06Society is wrong and then you've

02:13:08recruited community of like-minded

02:13:09people that believe in this and then

02:13:11either it's all online or it's offline

02:13:13or some combinations or if you start

02:13:14getting territory and then maybe you

02:13:16eventually need like uh like a sovereign

02:13:19recognition to become a full Network

02:13:20state but even a network Union or

02:13:21network archipelago can get very far

02:13:23you're solving the problem for yourself

02:13:24you are remember the thing we were

02:13:26talking about the bastia the scene and

02:13:28unseen which you mentioned you are now

02:13:29making the Unseen scene

02:13:31you are showing in this sugar-free Zone

02:13:34what the impact of sugar is on the sugar

02:13:37full Zone everybody's 30 pounds lighter

02:13:39here right diabetes is dropped X percent

02:13:42everybody's like much better looking oh

02:13:43my God right whatever right you know

02:13:45like they they have just let all these

02:13:47other conditions maybe go away when

02:13:48they're not overdosing on sugar all the

02:13:49time and so that thousand people reforms

02:13:53a million people 10 million people

02:13:54because they make movies about what

02:13:55they're doing I like the analogy or

02:13:58almost the framing of evidence over

02:14:00confidence right in the in the societies

02:14:03that we have today they tell us what

02:14:05should be done

02:14:06um and perhaps the best way to to

02:14:08actually show an alternative is through

02:14:10evidence right so through these small

02:14:12societies that show not say what is

02:14:14better that's exactly right and

02:14:16basically the key thing is

02:14:18so I mentioned the term president of a

02:14:20star Society president of a network

02:14:21Society okay the number of people in the

02:14:23world who could feasibly become

02:14:25president of the United States is

02:14:26actually so you have to be like 35 years

02:14:28old Natural Born American citizen some

02:14:30other requirements okay so only four

02:14:32percent of the world is American and to

02:14:35apply those requirements it probably it

02:14:36chops it in half again right let's say

02:14:38it's maybe under two percent of people

02:14:40could become president and we're told

02:14:42this thing in school that anybody can

02:14:44become president and so on but it

02:14:45actually means 98 of the world cannot

02:14:47become president United States and even

02:14:49the president United States cannot

02:14:50actually fire these Regulators who have

02:14:52career tenure and so on and so forth

02:14:54there's a whole to do over that right

02:14:55schedule F and practically speaking

02:14:57first 98 of the world cannot actually

02:14:59become president and that President

02:15:01doesn't even have power of these

02:15:02Regulatory Agencies so the current

02:15:04pathway cannot fix those Regulatory

02:15:05Agencies there is no path to reform

02:15:07within the system it's literally like

02:15:09making Blockbuster into Netflix right

02:15:12making Barnes Noble try and become

02:15:14Amazon making Blackberry into Apple you

02:15:17couldn't do it you just disrupted you

02:15:18had to build the alternative system

02:15:20right you could not have turned England

02:15:22into America or the UK into America you

02:15:25had to build America right

02:15:27so now though you declare yourself

02:15:28president of a star of society and guess

02:15:30what the vast majority of the world 90

02:15:32they'll all laugh at you LOL look at

02:15:34this idiot like oh you're president of

02:15:37the store right you know it's like you

02:15:39know basically imaginary present and you

02:15:42want that you know why you want them to

02:15:44do that

02:15:45because they won't stop you exactly if

02:15:47you do have enough power if you do have

02:15:49enough attention then you are actually

02:15:51putting friction between you and your

02:15:53goal for that's right time that's right

02:15:54so so like the whole Gandhi line which

02:15:56is overused but it's also you know first

02:15:58day laugh you want them to laugh at you

02:16:00right they're not taking you seriously

02:16:01you know what because here's the thing

02:16:03you don't need to win an election

02:16:05you do not need to get 51 support that

02:16:08thing you're mentioning at the beginning

02:16:09of will the majority go this everything

02:16:11doesn't have to be calibrated to whether

02:16:12the low attention voter can be convinced

02:16:16of this premise right uh you know with

02:16:18Co and and actually the way they're

02:16:20convinced here's another deficit of the

02:16:21current system it's all acting you know

02:16:23you're increasingly seeing people who

02:16:25are selected just for being influencers

02:16:27or actors in a literal sense you know

02:16:30whether it's Al Franken or it's Trump or

02:16:32it's Reagan or it's you have folks who

02:16:34are literally actors and are selected

02:16:36for their acting ability

02:16:38to be politicians but actors are liars

02:16:42like we don't think of it that way

02:16:43because actors prestigious Liars not

02:16:45procedures but an actor is a very

02:16:47skilled liar they're they're incredibly

02:16:50convincing on camera you believe they

02:16:52have that emotion they blend into the

02:16:54character and then cut and they stop

02:16:56crying you know just get a tissue like

02:16:58all right what's my next scene you know

02:16:59like that right and so you're selecting

02:17:02for politicians that are liars because

02:17:06you know there's that saying like

02:17:07actions speak louder speak louder than

02:17:09words they actually don't online words

02:17:12speak louder than actions you know why

02:17:13you see the Twitter feed of I don't know

02:17:16AOC or like you know any other

02:17:18politician whatever you see their

02:17:20Twitter feed but most people are not

02:17:22looking at anywhere near as constantly

02:17:24is not just their voting record but

02:17:27their actual actions their actions are

02:17:29not legible in the same way

02:17:31one of the things that crypto does by

02:17:33the way is we're going to be turning the

02:17:35LinkedIn resume of self-declared things

02:17:37into a feed of crypto credentials that

02:17:40is awarded to People by you you close a

02:17:41sale you get a crypto credential it's an

02:17:43on-chain proof from your CEO at the time

02:17:45that you close the sale for this amount

02:17:47at this time you solve a math problem

02:17:49you get a crypto credential from your

02:17:51professor right so you now have a

02:17:53machine readable on-chain resume that's

02:17:56provable it's not simply assertions it's

02:17:58time stamped it happened at the time

02:18:00it's digitally signed by that person Now

02:18:03actions starts speaking on the same

02:18:05scale as words and now you can start a

02:18:07work because there's a feed of them it's

02:18:09visible in the same way as the words on

02:18:10on online except it's on chain and now

02:18:13you can actually start filtering your

02:18:15Society by those people who actually are

02:18:17doing actions and not just words or

02:18:19actions plus words right actions plus

02:18:21words is valuable actions alone is

02:18:22valuable words alone is usually not as

02:18:24valuable and so you know you put this

02:18:26together and what you've got is

02:18:28something where

02:18:29you have your your concept of evidence

02:18:31overconfidence is really good because

02:18:33confidence is the confidence of the

02:18:35actor it's also the confidence of the

02:18:36confidence man okay evidence is the

02:18:40evidence of one's own eyes you can go

02:18:41and here's the thing you don't have to

02:18:42go and move to the society you can tour

02:18:45the society you can tour it in VR you

02:18:47can tour it online in fact a good

02:18:49startup society as I mentioned you know

02:18:5020 30 of your case is making the moral

02:18:53case for what you're doing they're

02:18:55constantly preaching their case from

02:18:57scratch over and over again just like

02:19:00you're constantly pitching your startup

02:19:02right that tagline that you've heard ten

02:19:04thousand times that person on their side

02:19:06is hearing once the first time right yep

02:19:09so you're constantly making their moral

02:19:10case you're making videos you're making

02:19:11in content because you're recruiting

02:19:13people to your community but even more

02:19:14than that you're trying to set an

02:19:16example for the rest of the world and

02:19:17they may not adopt the entire thing okay

02:19:19they may not say oh you know well look

02:19:21digital Sabbath we can't be offline 12

02:19:24Stars a day but maybe we'll do eight or

02:19:25some silly iteration thereof right but

02:19:28that's good it's just like Google's

02:19:30example of using Linux eventually forced

02:19:34reform on Microsoft and now they own

02:19:36GitHub or whatever right that would

02:19:37never have been done within the

02:19:38organizations reform had to come from

02:19:40without but it was reform it was but it

02:19:42was practical reform it wasn't saying

02:19:44hey let's rely on this thing to change

02:19:45you have the Thousand X you have the

02:19:47people exiting to that jurisdiction you

02:19:49have the loss of faith and the old but

02:19:51you also have the building up of faith

02:19:53in the new and that forces reform yeah I

02:19:55think the parallel to startups is really

02:19:59Illuminating in the sense that every

02:20:01startup as you said has some sort of

02:20:03tagline some sort of minor thing minor

02:20:06at the time that they're founding that

02:20:08can extend it has inertia in some cases

02:20:11all the way to Google in some cases it

02:20:12ends up just being a bootstrap startup

02:20:14in some cases it's somewhere in between

02:20:16and they similar to the idea of these

02:20:20startup societies are often ignored and

02:20:22then as they get bigger and bigger and

02:20:24bigger they become too big to be ignored

02:20:26and then there's other routes at that

02:20:28juncture too right some of them are

02:20:29absorbed and bought some of them

02:20:32continue to ascend and actually

02:20:33overthrow the the existing uh company in

02:20:37that space and so yeah I think it's

02:20:38really interesting to consider that many

02:20:40of these startup Society ideas will

02:20:43sound silly to many people at first but

02:20:46they do become something

02:20:50or or they evolve over time or they can

02:20:52evolve that's right and basically like

02:20:54startups sharp socies are like start

02:20:56companies in this way where uh sharp

02:20:58companies as I mentioned in the book

02:20:59it's like you think about Twitter or

02:21:01SpaceX right Twitter sounded insanely

02:21:04trivial SpaceX sounded insanely

02:21:06ambitious okay oh 140 characters

02:21:09breakfast tweet uh what is this you know

02:21:12and SpaceX sounded okay yeah sure you're

02:21:14gonna beat NASA all right good luck

02:21:15right so essentially they were at

02:21:18opposite ends of the spectrum but

02:21:20they're both now like 10 billion dollar

02:21:22companies that have changed the world

02:21:23one of them was considered too trivial

02:21:24though it was infeasible lots of startup

02:21:27things are like that where they're just

02:21:28outside the original window and all of

02:21:30it is in the execution and so you know

02:21:32this guy Idan Levine had this great

02:21:34tweet where he's like what is like the

02:21:36craziest thing and he's like a fan of

02:21:38this and so he's like let me see Pat

02:21:40prayers he's like what is it the

02:21:42craziest thing that would work as a one

02:21:44commandment and that's what is your

02:21:45question to that oh I mean there's gonna

02:21:48be things I couldn't even predict right

02:21:49I mean the obvious stuff is like

02:21:52language communities you know like

02:21:54religious communities you know you're

02:21:56going to have uh for example like Rod

02:21:58draher has this book called The Benedict

02:22:00option right if you want to be a

02:22:02religious Christian

02:22:03guess what now you can actually do that

02:22:05and you don't have to impose your values

02:22:07on the rest of society nor do you have

02:22:09to so it's at V3 right you're not

02:22:12imposing Christianity on people who

02:22:13don't agree with it nor are you seeing

02:22:16your Christian culture eroded or what

02:22:18have you you go and gather with others

02:22:20and you actually go in crowdfunterra and

02:22:22you practice and you actually live that

02:22:24Holy life and that's always harder to do

02:22:26in practice than in theory people will

02:22:28have you ever if you heard the term Trad

02:22:30right people will LARP being Trad I know

02:22:33that's two internet abbreviations in one

02:22:35okay but they will sort of pretend that

02:22:37they are like super traditional or

02:22:39whatever online because they inhabit

02:22:40this sort of fantasy world but the

02:22:43actuality of how the Trad stuff

02:22:46interacts with modernity you know for

02:22:48example there's um

02:22:50in in Judaism there's something called

02:22:51like uh modern Orthodox right I don't

02:22:54know if you've heard the term

02:22:55right modern Orthodox it's basically it

02:22:57tries to synthesize like traditional you

02:23:01know Orthodox Judaism with the modern

02:23:02world and it has to make interesting

02:23:04kind of trade-offs for that you know

02:23:05when you actually build that Society

02:23:07maybe it'll be pleasing maybe it won't

02:23:10be and the way you can test it is

02:23:12whether it attracts immigrants from the

02:23:14rest of the world right in fact there's

02:23:16this really here's a here's something

02:23:18this is going in V2 of the book this is

02:23:19a new content okay ready for new content

02:23:21take a look at this pretty cool uh video

02:23:25okay and then here is a like uh here's a

02:23:31visual version of it so you can see it

02:23:32in a graph okay let's click the second

02:23:33link first the population rank of every

02:23:36U.S state over 100 years okay and

02:23:38actually you know there's a better

02:23:39version of this that has like you know

02:23:41goes all the way back to 1770 this is

02:23:43only over 10 years you can watch that

02:23:44YouTube link as well which kind of has

02:23:46an animation of this thing is that the

02:23:48US has had something where especially

02:23:50over 200 something years different

02:23:52states have been like number one and and

02:23:55the ones that are pulling in all the

02:23:56internal immigrants from other places

02:23:58right people talk about the us as a

02:24:02nation of immigrants and that is talked

02:24:04about as coming from other countries but

02:24:06there's two wrinkles on that first is

02:24:08it's not just a nation of immigrants

02:24:09it's a nation of immigrants right

02:24:11tautologically every immigrant emigrated

02:24:13from somewhere so they left why did they

02:24:15leave Poland or India or Iran right or

02:24:19China you know sometimes it's leaving

02:24:21like communism like China or Nazism

02:24:23fleeing Germany or you're leaving an

02:24:25economic Basket Case like India was or

02:24:27you're leaving you know just for a

02:24:29search for a better life like many

02:24:30people are right but fundamentally the

02:24:33people who leave

02:24:34are not the wealthy

02:24:37necessarily what they are or the

02:24:39politically powerless

02:24:41this is really important by the way

02:24:42because people say oh apology earlier

02:24:44exit stuff it's all about like Rich guys

02:24:46leaving and leaving us holding the bag

02:24:48blah blah and I'm like have you looked

02:24:51at the profile of immigrants globally

02:24:52like they are not on balance the wealthy

02:24:56right in fact the wealthy and Powerful

02:24:59have big houses and political power in

02:25:03places like San Francisco and they

02:25:06control the government whereas the the

02:25:09new money

02:25:10right the immigrants

02:25:12are the ones who do not control the

02:25:14government and thus had to leave San

02:25:15Francisco because they could not get EMB

02:25:17through because they could not fix you

02:25:19know the streets or whatever because

02:25:20they got attacked because they got

02:25:22priced out and so on and so forth so

02:25:24those who leave are not those who are

02:25:25financially wealthy those who leave are

02:25:27those who are politically powerless

02:25:28right and once you look at it they are

02:25:31often those who are in a sense fleeing

02:25:33right I mean one way of putting it is

02:25:35and this is kind of reduction at observe

02:25:36them and it may seem like a digression

02:25:38but entertain me

02:25:39um

02:25:40was Stalin Rich depends in in what part

02:25:44well society as things it wasn't money

02:25:47right in fact it's a quora quote or

02:25:49something else I'm not sure this is true

02:25:50but it's very plausible like you know

02:25:53Stalin didn't even have change in his

02:25:55pocket right but he could walk around

02:25:56and it's like you know Grand Theft Auto

02:25:58you just carjack a car right that's like

02:26:01how Stalin and like the nomenclatura

02:26:03walked around like the Soviet Union they

02:26:05just had like root access to everything

02:26:06they could commandeer your house

02:26:08sometimes your wife you know like you

02:26:11know like your your farm or whatever

02:26:12that's what collectivization meant it

02:26:14was the people and it was the people

02:26:15it's a Communist party and it's a

02:26:16nomenclature that controls everything

02:26:17right so was he Rich no he was powerful

02:26:21right meaning rich I mean like a wealthy

02:26:24person must still persuade right they're

02:26:27giving you money for something and you

02:26:28could reject that offer or not but the

02:26:30powerful can compel so persuasion versus

02:26:33compulsion right convincing versus

02:26:34coercing those are different things so

02:26:37was Stalin Rich no he wasn't Rich he was

02:26:38powerful and once we acknowledge that as

02:26:41a limit case right you can pull it back

02:26:43and be like okay actually power is a

02:26:45different axis from wealth and there can

02:26:47be people who are powerful but not

02:26:49wealthy they're people who can compel

02:26:51who cannot convince and vice versa those

02:26:53who control territory are those who are

02:26:55powerful and those who set the lawsuits

02:26:57are powerful if you could set the laws

02:26:58why would you leave right you wouldn't

02:27:00right there's no incentive there's no

02:27:02incentive you're setting the laws this

02:27:03is all bespoke made to you blah blah

02:27:05blah why would you leave right this is

02:27:07you've you've carved out some stupid you

02:27:09know bailout or something like that you

02:27:12know

02:27:13um

02:27:13you're you're not seeing the folks who

02:27:16own housing in SF and who have been

02:27:19blocking housing those are not the folks

02:27:21who are leaving it's uh it's the new

02:27:22people who are leaving right the

02:27:23politically powerless are leaving and so

02:27:26the reason this is important by the way

02:27:27is often things are framed as masses

02:27:30versus Elites or like these rich Elite

02:27:32are leaving it's actually typically it's

02:27:35at least three groups there's masses

02:27:37there's Elite and what Peter churchen

02:27:39calls the counter Elite once you have

02:27:41that term is a glorious term because it

02:27:43clarifies so much right you're no longer

02:27:46basically you don't get this silly kind

02:27:48of situation of saying that someone who

02:27:51VC you know millionaire or like a tech

02:27:54founder or like uh you know biomedical

02:27:57you don't get into the silly game of

02:27:59like are they Elite or are they massive

02:28:01in set they're the counterally the tech

02:28:03folks are a Global meritocratic Group

02:28:07relative to like basically the white

02:28:11nepotis of the American establishment

02:28:12now I'm not the kind of person by the

02:28:13way who thinks white is an insult okay

02:28:15but the U.S establishment does

02:28:17and the so once you kind of apply that

02:28:20lens you see how many of their

02:28:21businesses how many of their media

02:28:23corporations how many of their East

02:28:24Coast kinds of things are either

02:28:26literally inherited in the sense of like

02:28:28passed by father to son like the New

02:28:29York Times company like Salzburg or

02:28:30Salzburg are five generations or

02:28:33informally inherited like the Kennedy

02:28:35name the polo you know like the Pelosi

02:28:37name it's not East Coast I mean she's on

02:28:39the west coast but like you know these

02:28:40are like famous family dynasties right

02:28:43um a very large fraction if you go to

02:28:44that uh that article founding verse

02:28:48inheriting there's a paragraph there

02:28:49which is like I say now of course

02:28:51someone who attends political office

02:28:53isn't always a familial error though

02:28:56it's more common than you might think

02:29:01and if you click those seven links

02:29:03you'll see an article on so-called

02:29:05widow's succession hereditary

02:29:07politicians history of wives replacing

02:29:09their dead husbands in Congress the

02:29:11candy family the Bush family the Clinton

02:29:12family the Roosevelt family and the list

02:29:14of the United States political families

02:29:16and there's actually quite a lot of them

02:29:17right this is also there's this movie

02:29:19The distinguished gentleman which is

02:29:20about like name recognition you know so

02:29:22America has an ability

02:29:25it has de facto like hereditary titles

02:29:28that's a huge advantage in running for

02:29:30office is that hereditary name of being

02:29:32a Kennedy or something like that right

02:29:33and

02:29:36so against that Elite that hereditary

02:29:38Elite sometimes in the literal sense of

02:29:39inheriting a media Corporation these

02:29:42what I call the meritless nepotists

02:29:43right and just calling them that by the

02:29:45way scales fall from the eyes so much

02:29:49becomes clear old money against new is

02:29:51an eternal story it's literally the old

02:29:54money calling the new money Rich that's

02:29:55like literally what it is okay once you

02:29:58kind of see that

02:30:00you're like okay it's elite versus

02:30:01counter Elite and what that will

02:30:04probably mean is the U.S establishment

02:30:08wins within the territories of the us

02:30:11that they control but they lose outside

02:30:13the there's parts from the US that I

02:30:16think become more Sanctuary city-like uh

02:30:19you know diverging in different ways to

02:30:21the left and to the right of the federal

02:30:22government and there's countries outside

02:30:24that diverge away from the federal

02:30:25government and so what happens is the

02:30:27establishment will have more power over

02:30:29fewer people well well something that

02:30:32that comes to mind is I think I heard

02:30:34you say something along the lines of

02:30:35Google News

02:30:37basically made every magazine compete

02:30:39with every other magazine yes or every

02:30:41other blog compete with every other blog

02:30:43and I I want to hear your take on how

02:30:46certain technological shifts like remote

02:30:48work you know we can we can relate this

02:30:49back to the network state but even

02:30:51separate from that

02:30:52change the game in terms of every state

02:30:55or every city competing with every other

02:30:56City out there for talent the US is a

02:30:59nation of immigrants but it's also a

02:31:01nation of immigrants where the people

02:31:02who left were those who were politically

02:31:04powerless as we just talked about from

02:31:06other countries but it's also a niche

02:31:08and it's not the financial politically

02:31:10powerless but it's also a nation of

02:31:13internal immigrants less appreciated is

02:31:16the degree to which the number one two

02:31:18three and four states in the US have

02:31:20been in flux over time they have

02:31:22attracted people and repel people and so

02:31:24on and looking at that over time

02:31:26actually tells a really interesting

02:31:27story again you know we live

02:31:3020 30 40 56 like if you're very old

02:31:33you've seen some of these ups and downs

02:31:35right but once you take the window

02:31:36that's longer than human life because

02:31:38we've got data going back remember I

02:31:39think about a billion 100 billion people

02:31:41have lived if you go back you get more

02:31:42data you only have one life right so

02:31:44let's once you get some leverage out of

02:31:45that right that's what history is it's

02:31:47leverage right financial leverage in a

02:31:48sense it is Alpha okay other

02:31:50configurations of humans work so you

02:31:51look at these charts and you see oh wait

02:31:53a second like in the 1800s Ohio was a

02:31:56really big deal it was like one of the

02:31:57top states attracting lots of people

02:31:59like Pennsylvania you're like oh yeah

02:32:01that was like when it wasn't the Rust

02:32:03Belt it was like making stuff right like

02:32:06the higher River all this stuff is like

02:32:07really important and then you come you

02:32:10know forward and you see like New York

02:32:12was like for example the very beginning

02:32:14of the US Virginia was big and now you

02:32:17kind of vaguely remember this you've

02:32:18read any early American history you'll

02:32:20hear people talk about like and as a

02:32:22Virginian you know like State identity

02:32:25was actually a big deal then why

02:32:27because

02:32:29we have to work back but in the like the

02:32:311700s individual what are now U.S states

02:32:35like Pennsylvania was settled by like

02:32:37William Penn and his you know followers

02:32:39and like Massachusetts Bay colonies like

02:32:41the Northeast and uh like Virginia is

02:32:44like the uh the Cavaliers and you know

02:32:47tiger all these different districts

02:32:48right uh not districts like like sub

02:32:50colonies they were as different as tech

02:32:53companies were in like the year

02:32:562008 right so you have Larry Page and

02:32:59Google you have Zuckerberg and Facebook

02:33:01you have Steve Jobs and apple you have

02:33:03Bill Gates and Microsoft you have Jeff

02:33:05Bezos and Amazon these are founder run

02:33:07companies with different cultures and

02:33:10different personalities and so on now

02:33:12today now that four out of those five

02:33:14companies have had their Founders leave

02:33:16right now today Microsoft Google Amazon

02:33:20and uh and apple are much more similar

02:33:23than they were 10 years ago a lot of

02:33:25people who have the resume of I did

02:33:26three years here and two years here and

02:33:27three years here but like big Tech is

02:33:29its own thing Facebook is the outlier

02:33:31because Zuck is still a founder and so

02:33:33he can actually do big things like

02:33:34rebranding to meta that can take risks

02:33:36okay point being that putting those

02:33:39States together like Virginia was an

02:33:41identity of its own like Virginia was a

02:33:43whole thing after the Civil War it went

02:33:46from the United States R to the United

02:33:47States is

02:33:49like these states lost more of their you

02:33:53know like individual identity and became

02:33:55like you know a federal government like

02:33:57a like a union where they were just

02:33:59administrative subdivisions right and

02:34:01even more of that was knocked down over

02:34:03the early 20th century and the great

02:34:05centralization you know FDR did another

02:34:06big step with the 10th Amendment

02:34:07basically being repealed everything that

02:34:10was supposed to be left to the States

02:34:11was now something where you could set up

02:34:13these Regulatory Agencies like the FDA

02:34:15and so on they just said hey everything

02:34:16is interested Commerce therefore the

02:34:17federal government regulates anything

02:34:19right so all this centralization

02:34:20happened but even during this period

02:34:22even during the high centralization you

02:34:24still have people moving between states

02:34:25and now you have something like Florida

02:34:28that's been coming up over the last 20

02:34:30years and it's really with the Miami

02:34:31thing and so on it's really giving

02:34:33California competition right but that's

02:34:35not something that just came out of

02:34:36nowhere if you look at this graph the

02:34:38visual capitalist graph you see like you

02:34:40know Florida's being like gaining

02:34:41traction for decades and so it was it's

02:34:43an overnight success like you know 50

02:34:45years in the making whatever you see

02:34:47with this is that internal competition

02:34:48of this kind between administrative

02:34:50subunits is very important for keeping

02:34:53things healthy

02:34:55um and this is the remember we're

02:34:57talking about like the different

02:34:57leviathans this is the polystatus model

02:34:59as opposed to the monocytus model right

02:35:01there's always a tension between these

02:35:02okay there's this whole uh Chinese

02:35:06um saying which is the Empire long

02:35:08United must divide long divided must

02:35:10unite why because when it's long United

02:35:12you have stultifying bureaucracy

02:35:14harmonizing like I was talking about

02:35:16it's it's not responsive Etc then you

02:35:19decentralize you divide then what

02:35:21happens you have a period of oh it's all

02:35:23chaotic oh my God I wish we had common

02:35:24sand Etc it's only reunify oh wow we've

02:35:27reunified and then there's a honeymoon

02:35:29period and you know so each time there's

02:35:31like a honeymoon period of wow we've got

02:35:33our independence oh my God it's chaotic

02:35:34oh let's reunify oh my God it's

02:35:36sclerotic oh let's divide right so it

02:35:38goes in Cycles like this and that's not

02:35:41to say that you come back in the same

02:35:42place one of the points I make in the

02:35:44book is the helical theory of History

02:35:45where from one axis it looks like

02:35:48progress from another acts no projection

02:35:50it looks like going in a circle but if

02:35:52you look at it from outside it's like

02:35:54you know maybe it's a x of T equals cos

02:35:57t y of T equals sine t z of T equals T

02:36:00is the parametric equation for like a

02:36:02helix in like three space so it's like

02:36:04cyclical and sub axes and it's you know

02:36:06linear on others right

02:36:08so you are still making progress

02:36:10sometimes even if it seems like you're

02:36:11going in a circle uniting dividing

02:36:13bring that to the present day

02:36:15what we are going through and what we

02:36:18are going to see is much more polycatism

02:36:20and the network state is a way of not

02:36:22just using the existing administrative

02:36:23units like Florida and what have you but

02:36:25setting up new ones imagine a United

02:36:27States where you couldn't just found a

02:36:31company but you could found the next

02:36:32California

02:36:33let's say the first order the 34 million

02:36:35Californians own California

02:36:38okay like this huge territory or

02:36:40whatever right the 500 000 let's take a

02:36:42smaller uh State Wyoming like about 500

02:36:45000 wyomingans or wyomingers actually

02:36:46don't know what the I'm sure someone

02:36:48will be like it's I don't either yeah

02:36:50it's like you know Wyoming guy I don't

02:36:52know like something like that right okay

02:36:54580 000. yeah so it's the smallest city

02:36:56in Union I think so the 580 000

02:36:58wyomingans basically own Wyoming right

02:37:01they could in a sense crowdfund Wyoming

02:37:04let's say I don't know the exact ratio

02:37:06but let's say on the order of 80 or 90

02:37:07of Wyoming territory belongs to Wyoming

02:37:10residents it's some out-of-state holding

02:37:12some Chinese Holdings and so on but

02:37:14let's just say Okay first order

02:37:16that's interesting because what that

02:37:18suggests is 500 000 people that you

02:37:21unify in an online

02:37:23Network Society Network union network

02:37:26archipelago could have a territory that

02:37:29amounts to the territory of Wyoming just

02:37:31spread out I could actually found an

02:37:33administrative unit that competes

02:37:36with these other administrative units

02:37:39and the key thing is that because I'm

02:37:41being able to buy a piece of territory

02:37:43that aren't connected to each other I

02:37:44don't have to expand it in one place

02:37:46right this is a key Insight like I

02:37:48talked about this in the book that the

02:37:50big thing about the nation states see

02:37:51you know they're city-states nation

02:37:53states and network States this again the

02:37:54V3 right the city-state was like this

02:37:56independent unit it was Innovative and

02:37:58so on but it got beaten by the nation

02:38:00state you know why because the nation

02:38:02state had scale you know what we now

02:38:03think of is Italy and like language

02:38:05Italian most people in the Italian

02:38:07Peninsula you know depending on how you

02:38:09like uh people argue that most people

02:38:11didn't speak Italian at the time that

02:38:12Garibaldi was unifying Italy people

02:38:14argue like

02:38:15um Eric Hobson argues that at the time

02:38:18the French Revolution most people in

02:38:20France didn't speak what we now know as

02:38:21French they spoke other dialects other

02:38:23languages right Germany you know

02:38:25Bismarck unified Germany and there's a

02:38:26whole thing in the 1800s called the

02:38:28German question about you know whether

02:38:29like uh Hanover and Austria like how

02:38:33would how would they actually attract

02:38:34it's like it's sort of like you know who

02:38:36would run the American Republic would be

02:38:38Virginia or would be the capital B in DC

02:38:40right Garibaldi unified Italy after the

02:38:42French Revolution France Got unified and

02:38:45homogenized the state actually shaped

02:38:47the nation because now all those people

02:38:49have no memory of a time when their

02:38:51ancestors spoke a language other than

02:38:53French right the the nation instead of

02:38:55an interplay where the state has all

02:38:57this power so it can actually reshape

02:38:59the nation and rewrite people's brains

02:39:00like Men In Black you know like flash

02:39:03you know now the children are educated

02:39:05by the state and so the state sheep's a

02:39:07nation there is a feedback effect right

02:39:09um it's sort of similar to uh you know

02:39:12the whole currency argument what comes

02:39:13first barter you know or is it like like

02:39:16debt right that's like you know various

02:39:18arguments on this and I do think it's

02:39:19barter that comes first but it is true

02:39:22that you can you know have a feedback

02:39:23effector okay why did I bring this up

02:39:26the city state lost the nation state

02:39:28because the nation state had scale okay

02:39:30and so it rolled up all of these smaller

02:39:33units into this big thing and it had the

02:39:36scale to beat others and in fact once

02:39:38one group had that scale then the nearby

02:39:40neighbors needed to also get together

02:39:42like so the French Revolution and the

02:39:44Napoleonic Wars are what helped lead to

02:39:46German unification

02:39:48all these guys are like hey we got a

02:39:50gang up together because France is going

02:39:51to beat us right there's actually a

02:39:53relic of the past like a like a

02:39:55duck-billed platypus

02:39:57that it's like a missing link that lives

02:39:59into the present have you ever been to

02:40:00you know what San Marino is I I

02:40:03recognize it but I actually don't know

02:40:06why don't you explain what it is San

02:40:08Marino is this tiny little patch if it's

02:40:11in what we think of as Italy

02:40:13that is like a sovereign thing in the

02:40:15U.N it's got a flag it's like 30 000

02:40:17people it's like this weird thing what

02:40:19what a country of 30 000 people in like

02:40:21it's an enclave also it's like in the

02:40:23middle of of Italy and so what it is is

02:40:26basically before the unification of

02:40:28Italy

02:40:29um Garibaldi

02:40:31sought Refuge like basically San there's

02:40:33it's a whole complicated story about how

02:40:35it got unified but Garibaldi was able to

02:40:37seek refuge in San Marino at one point

02:40:39and in gratitude he's like okay I we'll

02:40:43just do a contract with you guys we

02:40:45won't fold you into the full Italy okay

02:40:48and so San Reno by hook and by crook

02:40:51managed to preserve its sovereignty to

02:40:52the present day

02:40:53and they're like a relic of the past

02:40:55when the whole thing looked like that

02:40:58lots of little San Marino's all over the

02:40:59map right if you look at

02:41:01um a map of Germany before Bismarck

02:41:04right that's a map of Germany before

02:41:06Bismarck right

02:41:08um now here's another one you know a map

02:41:10of

02:41:11the the princely states okay when India

02:41:15got independence

02:41:17it wasn't just independence from the

02:41:19British oh that wasn't the only problem

02:41:21they had to solve they also saw the

02:41:23problem of the princely states take a

02:41:26look at that

02:41:27basically there were 562 princely states

02:41:29that I think that's the exact number

02:41:31about that constituted what we now know

02:41:33of as the Indian Union if you look at

02:41:36that map look at how complicated that

02:41:37looks

02:41:40it's wildly complicated wildly

02:41:42complicated right this is the physical

02:41:45world used to be complicated like this

02:41:49but it meant it was very simple within

02:41:51those communities because people

02:41:53basically spoke the same language they

02:41:55had things in common and so and so forth

02:41:56you're trading off like one kind of

02:41:58complex I'm not saying it's like all

02:41:59roses or whatever right but you often

02:42:01can trade off one kind of complexity for

02:42:03another right clean lines on a map in

02:42:06Africa you know have put people who

02:42:08don't speak the same language don't

02:42:09share the same culture together and has

02:42:11led to a lot of the African Civil Wars

02:42:13is these artificial Nations that didn't

02:42:15reflect actual ethnic groups okay and uh

02:42:19you know this is actually you know the

02:42:20Sykes Pico lions in the Middle East it's

02:42:22actually something that like Isis and

02:42:23others also hate but basically whenever

02:42:26you see these straight lines in the

02:42:27Middle East

02:42:28um you know these are like artificial

02:42:29countries that don't reflect ethnic

02:42:31boundaries and so just gives rise to

02:42:33like endless conflict because people

02:42:35need to share culture before they can

02:42:38agree on law

02:42:39you know if your religion says this must

02:42:42be done and this guy's religion says

02:42:43this must not be done you're just gonna

02:42:45Slug It Out endlessly you can't just

02:42:47agree and it might be something really

02:42:48stupid you know it might be some dietary

02:42:50thing or something that doesn't really

02:42:51matter in the grand scheme of things or

02:42:53at least not to not to people who don't

02:42:55share either religion but they'll just

02:42:56Slug It Out endlessly if the boundaries

02:42:58aren't set in the right way this is how

02:43:00the world used to work if you look at

02:43:01San Marino you get a piece of it you

02:43:03look at the map of Germany before

02:43:04Bismarck you look at Indian princely

02:43:06States

02:43:07this is how actually the world also kind

02:43:10of works today you know why

02:43:12because a lot of countries are small

02:43:14countries yes so you know that part the

02:43:16other thing is if you've seen the county

02:43:18map of the U.S and who's Democrat and

02:43:21who's Republican that also looks fractal

02:43:24in this same way it's complicated right

02:43:27right yeah and the lines aren't

02:43:29representative necessarily of the nation

02:43:32behind those lines that's right and so

02:43:34in fact you know they're saying like one

02:43:36nation under God indivisible right so

02:43:40there's this really important the

02:43:42unfortunate one-liner is it's now two

02:43:45Nations that don't believe in God highly

02:43:48divisible right why because you know you

02:43:51can take a look at like

02:43:52this graph that's at the level of

02:43:56um Congress okay but you can literally

02:43:59see it going from

02:44:01you know people basically voting

02:44:03together on things to essentially all

02:44:06Republicans voting with all Republicans

02:44:08all Democrats voting with all Democrats

02:44:10right and there's the rare bipartisan

02:44:12things like where there's like gray

02:44:14lines that connect them are like 911 and

02:44:17like the financial crisis so for like

02:44:19the you know bombings or bailouts type

02:44:22stuff that's like that's the bipartisan

02:44:24stuff but otherwise they just never vote

02:44:25together on anything you know then you

02:44:27you look at that that's at the you know

02:44:28level of Congress and then you look at

02:44:30this graphic that I just pasted in this

02:44:32is at the level of Twitter or Facebook

02:44:34okay uh there's a you know article cjr

02:44:38uh study 2017 basically both Twitter and

02:44:42Facebook look the same where it looks

02:44:44like this

02:44:45blue and red separated thing right so

02:44:48this is this is literally two Nations

02:44:50going back to the very first thing in

02:44:52our chat it is not one nation it is two

02:44:55nations with different values

02:44:57like and one way one way of thinking

02:44:58about it is something like uh 96 of

02:45:02Democrats marry other Democrats only

02:45:03four percent married Republicans okay so

02:45:05Democrats will not marry Republicans

02:45:08and what that means is ideology becomes

02:45:11biology in one generation like this is

02:45:14becoming or already is in some ways like

02:45:17Sunni versus Shiite

02:45:19it is not a political conflict in the

02:45:22traditional sense it is a tribal

02:45:23conflict between groups that do not

02:45:26marry each other

02:45:27right if you look at if you look at this

02:45:29graph over here right marriages between

02:45:31Democrats and Republicans are rare it's

02:45:33like the

02:45:34here it's the one that I just pasted in

02:45:36there right

02:45:38so when you have something like that

02:45:40like they are becoming different ethnic

02:45:42groups as different as you know what you

02:45:44call them racial ethnic groups like

02:45:46Sunni and Shiite you know

02:45:48um or Protestant and Catholic you know

02:45:50for a long time that was a huge thing in

02:45:51Europe right or you know hudu and Tutsi

02:45:54or whatever right and this relates to

02:45:56your idea of primary identity right

02:45:58because these people are Democrats or

02:46:01Republicans they're also American

02:46:02they're also many other things

02:46:03left-handed right-handed as you said but

02:46:06there's one identity that people are now

02:46:08trending towards right as their Primary

02:46:10in certain cases and that's why you're

02:46:12saying basically the nation which

02:46:14previously would have been primary

02:46:16identity American exactly or in the past

02:46:18primaries Catholic that's right it's

02:46:21like Yugoslavia where that primary

02:46:23identity was a national but now it's a

02:46:26sub-national identity it's kind of

02:46:27actually there's this book um by I think

02:46:29it's by Barbara Walter okay it's called

02:46:31like how Civil Wars start she talks

02:46:34about how in Iraq uh you know She

02:46:36interviewed like a girl there she's like

02:46:37what was different about you know after

02:46:39the U.S occupation and so she's like

02:46:41well people started asking me a question

02:46:43they never asked me before which is are

02:46:44you soon to yours yet so Saddam for all

02:46:46of his many faults basically like kept

02:46:49the lid on Iraq if you were in Iraq

02:46:52before Saddam there are bad things about

02:46:54it but it was not in Civil War and Isis

02:46:57and the like insanity that followed and

02:47:00the sectarian violence because in the

02:47:01absence of the state once the state was

02:47:03knocked out and the Americans were

02:47:05considered illegitimate you had God you

02:47:07people fell back on that Leviathan and

02:47:09she had these sectarian disputes which

02:47:12of course were fueled by Iran all these

02:47:14terrorists but

02:47:16it became Sunni versus Shiite the the

02:47:18national identity went away right and so

02:47:20what you're you're mentioning here is

02:47:21exactly like the American flag is not

02:47:25actually uh that's the state right but

02:47:28people don't identify it you'll see all

02:47:30these articles nyt other places they'll

02:47:31criticize oh my God I don't like the

02:47:33American flag instead the way of

02:47:35thinking about it it's not just

02:47:36Republicans that are nationalists it's

02:47:37Democrats that are also nationalists

02:47:39they're for Democrats and Republicans

02:47:40are for Republicans both are for their

02:47:42own tribe they're they're nation is Not

02:47:44The American Nation it is Republicans

02:47:46for the Republican Nation democrats for

02:47:48the Democrat nation and both them

02:47:49actually have their own Flags they're

02:47:51not called the Democratic flag and the

02:47:53Republican flag but you can immediately

02:47:54think of them you know where it's a blue

02:47:56line like the the blue lives matter flag

02:47:58or The Thin Blue Line flag the don't

02:48:00tread on me flag for the Republicans

02:48:03um or the progress flag for the

02:48:04Democrats et cetera like you they have

02:48:07actually their own flags that are

02:48:08actually the flags of their Nations we

02:48:10don't recognize them as such today but

02:48:12that's why I was saying like if in the

02:48:132010s the question is what is the

02:48:15currency the 2020 is the question is

02:48:17what is a nation once there is no longer

02:48:19an American Nation there's a Democrat

02:48:21nation in the Republican Nation you have

02:48:23these fractals that look just like the

02:48:25princely states of India in 1947 or

02:48:27Bismarck before Germany we already have

02:48:29the fractal Democrat Republican America

02:48:31that complicated thing that I showed you

02:48:33that seemed like it's part of the

02:48:34distant past is actually our present how

02:48:35does this relate the internet has

02:48:37actually made this possible to deal with

02:48:39not I mean I'm not saying this is all

02:48:40going to be roses or what have you but

02:48:42one of the things the internet has done

02:48:43as you progress in connected to the

02:48:45previous thing from city state

02:48:48to Nation State's Network state

02:48:50those city-states like San Marino that

02:48:52were little tiny things that couldn't

02:48:53survive on their own versus a big nation

02:48:55state can now with the internet group

02:48:57together around the world and have a

02:48:59collective scale that is again bigger

02:49:01than any local nation state a nation

02:49:03state can no longer expand right because

02:49:05the boundaries there are fixed the

02:49:07network State can expand at the speed of

02:49:09a tick tock or a Facebook right it can

02:49:12grab all these people globally it's

02:49:13constantly competing for for for people

02:49:15and so it can get greater scale than any

02:49:18nation state or not any let's say many

02:49:20nation states right and I mean it'll be

02:49:23hard to be bigger than China or India

02:49:25but Facebook is right now Facebook is

02:49:27not a network State because it was not

02:49:28set up as such the Facebook employees

02:49:30report to zoc they are in the leadership

02:49:32hierarchy the Facebook users are just

02:49:34using a tool and they're not taking

02:49:36orders from Mark on this or that but you

02:49:38could imagine a network that did have

02:49:41that kind of social contract where when

02:49:43you came in you're like look here's the

02:49:45thing this is a president here's the

02:49:48folks here's what we're doing here's the

02:49:49one commandment

02:49:50um here would be like your slot in the

02:49:53hierarchy if we have to break up tasks

02:49:55and so on just like when joining company

02:49:56right here's your title and your

02:49:58position it doesn't have to be quite

02:49:59like that as hierarchical but it could

02:50:01be okay different network societies will

02:50:03have different varieties and then you

02:50:05are signing that social smart contract

02:50:06upon entering it

02:50:08and now you've got something that has

02:50:10it's like the V3 it has aspects of the

02:50:12city state where it's like

02:50:14um Everybody agrees on something like

02:50:16it's Innovative it's agile it's Nimble

02:50:18it's like founder-led it has aspects of

02:50:20the nation state which beat the

02:50:21city-state because it's got scale you

02:50:24know it has uniformity like it is useful

02:50:27to have people in a large group all

02:50:28speak Italian or French it allows laws

02:50:31and all the types of there's there's a

02:50:32reason the V2 happened and this V3

02:50:34combines aspects of both just like

02:50:35Bitcoin combined aspects of both digital

02:50:37gold and fiat currency right and that is

02:50:39maybe what we're going to need

02:50:41as we move into this fractalized America

02:50:45where you do have

02:50:47two Nations not under God because people

02:50:49don't believe in God anymore like that's

02:50:51dropped off a cliff as well

02:50:53divisible you're going to need some new

02:50:55thesis of how to govern

02:50:58and I think Network States may be a

02:51:00piece of that

02:51:01um but even if you take America aside

02:51:03for now the rest of the world all of

02:51:06these other countries all of these other

02:51:08groups within those places the 96 in the

02:51:10world that's not American they can also

02:51:12now have new ways of doing

02:51:14self-government that don't require

02:51:16winning a war or an election or what

02:51:18have you anybody can declare themselves

02:51:19present Society set up a one commandment

02:51:22fix the problems they see in the world

02:51:23and be an example for others well I

02:51:25think that's a good place is to end it

02:51:27this was really really informative I

02:51:29think

02:51:30I think I'm glad we covered certain

02:51:32topics like is this just for the wealthy

02:51:34or can this actually scale to the point

02:51:37that that we consider states to be today

02:51:40so apology thank you for going through

02:51:42all this if people are interested they

02:51:44can go to what the networkstate.com and

02:51:47um also tutor.com

02:51:50so it's free online and you can also get

02:51:52it on Kindle awesome and if people are

02:51:54state.com dashboard looks like you have

02:51:5720 six startup societies that you're

02:51:59starting to track so also a very

02:52:00interesting place to see who's building

02:52:03what they're building and there's a lot

02:52:04of diversity there too that's right so

02:52:06this space is the things are happening

02:52:08here awesome thanks biology

02:52:13thanks for listening to the a16z podcast

02:52:15if you like this episode don't forget to

02:52:17subscribe here on YouTube to get our

02:52:19exclusive video content

02:52:20we'll see you next time

02:52:22[Music]

02:52:30um

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