00:00in some ways it's Manifest Destiny like
00:01humans are built to expand and explore
00:03and that is just like a core Drive of
00:06the species and with that sort of an
00:07argument it just comes down to like
00:09growth versus degrowth like that is the
00:13Eternal cultural fight and you can call
00:15it capitalism or communism or you can
00:17call it like the state versus the people
00:19or you can call it decentralization
00:21versus centralization but what it comes
00:24are we going to use the limited
00:26resources on the planet to go get new
00:28resources so we can continue this
00:29magical species-wide journey or are we
00:32going to accept the status quo and sit
00:33there and like you know continue to like
00:36shoot in a hole instead of inventing the
00:37toilet or whatever like
00:43Chris is the founder and CEO of Hadrian
00:45Hadrian is trying to build the factories
00:47of the future and in today's episode we
00:49talk about what Advanced manufacturing
00:51is how advanced it really is what's
00:53happened since the first base race the
00:55complexity of ensuring manufacturing the
00:57killer app for space and how simplifying
01:00the world of atoms can actually be done
01:01through bits and ultimately what kind of
01:03experimentation that might unlock if you
01:06like this episode I have a feeling
01:08you'll also like our recently published
01:09and first ever American dynamism 50 list
01:12this is a list of 50 companies building
01:14in the national interests that embody
01:15the ethos of American dynamism and guess
01:17who's on that list patreon you can find
01:20it at our homepage at a16c.com or at
01:25dynamism-50 enjoy the content here is
01:29for informational purposes only should
01:31not be taken as legal business tax or
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01:35any investment or security and is not
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01:42details BC a16d.com disclosures
01:55Chris welcome to the show thank you for
01:58having me all right let's start with a
02:00really simple definition what is
02:02Advanced manufacturing Advanced
02:04manufacturing is an industry term that
02:06generally covers uh the complex and high
02:09Precision side of all Industries which
02:11is usually semiconductor Aerospace
02:14defense basically anything you think of
02:16from like the Jetsons flying car future
02:19is generally bucket of advanced
02:21manufacturing I think it's it's
02:23interesting that this term advancing
02:25manufacturing covers an industry which
02:27at least isn't always that advanced or
02:30maybe hasn't kept up with the time so
02:33could you give a couple examples of ways
02:36that this space of advanced
02:38manufacturing is maybe not the reality
02:40that people might expect on the defense
02:43side is a great example you know
02:48defense primes coming out with drone
02:49programs or you know advanced fighter
02:52jets and stuff and you know really
02:54flashy products and marketing and things
02:57while like everything everything works
03:01um under the hood once you get below the
03:03assembly level you know someone making a
03:05fighter jet really what they're doing is
03:07outsourcing all of the components but
03:10the wing the engine you know everything
03:12to a tiered layer of you know 10 mini
03:15primes then 20 you know tier 3 suppliers
03:18and then literally 10 000 small
03:20suppliers dotted across the country that
03:22are doing everything from a machine
03:23component to I don't know the circuit
03:26board that is one part of the fire
03:28control system or whatever and that
03:30entire layer is basically basically
03:32chaos you know the B2 bomber which is
03:34one of our most strategic assets in
03:37um you know the nuclear program about a
03:40year ago the government had to issue an
03:41RFQ for some of the parts on the B2 not
03:45just to replace the parts but because no
03:47one you know the guy that designed it or
03:49engineered it retired and they didn't
03:50have it documented anywhere like there's
03:52literally no you know manual or document
03:55of how to make that part so the
03:57government had to go out and say hey we
03:58need someone to come up and like reverse
04:00engineer this entire thing so there's
04:02stuff like that that's really scary and
04:05we shipped the ukrainians uh what we
04:08thought was three years of inventory of
04:10stinger and Javelin missiles which are
04:11shoulder mounted really cheap missiles
04:13that can take out a tank or something so
04:14for providing that to a human force in
04:17Taiwan or the Ukraine it's exactly what
04:19we want to be sending people to deter uh
04:21invasions so we shipped them three years
04:24worth of inventory the ukrainians blew
04:26through it in three weeks and then the
04:27Raytheon CEO basically came out and said
04:29you know hey buy the administration you
04:31want more stingers and javelins but one
04:33it'll take us a year or two to spin on
04:34manufacturing secondly we don't know how
04:37to make some of the components anymore
04:38so basically below that you know veneer
04:41of product everything else is a complete
04:42is a complete disaster and I think
04:44because of the flashy flashy products
04:46and you know you're making like a really
04:48incredible fighter jet or drone people
04:50think it's you know super Advanced under
04:52the hood in reality it's a bunch of
04:54people in garages making components that
04:55look like they're out of the Fast and
04:57the Furious tour it's it's all it's all
04:59duct tape and spit yeah I mean you use
05:01the word insane but it really does
05:02surprise me to hear that there are these
05:05samples and it also sounds like these
05:06examples are not unique I heard in a
05:09couple other interviews you mentioning
05:11that like 50 of f-16s are grounded
05:13because they don't have the requisite
05:15parts or I think you gave another
05:17example of the International Space
05:19Station something happening to it a
05:21hatch getting jammed and then a similar
05:22phenomena happening where they had to
05:24like go and hunt down a piece of paper
05:26right can you tell that story the F-16
05:28one is is the scariest but basically if
05:31you look at the dod stats more than more
05:34than 50 of the f-16s are grounded and
05:38it's mostly because they can't maintain
05:40them and it's mostly because they can't
05:41get parts and what ends up happening is
05:43they end up cannibalizing other planes
05:45for parts and that makes the problem
05:46worse and worse and worse and what it
05:47was because of this you know Advanced
05:49manufacturing supply chain issue which
05:51is not a covet issue it's not you know
05:53an inflation issue it's been going on
05:54for years it's just now that it's coming
05:56to the Forefront as you know more and
05:58more people are realizing how important
06:01from the space station one is hilarious
06:03so there's a I only get some of the
06:05details wrong here um so if anyone from
06:07NASA is listening I apologize but
06:10you know the the hatch at the space
06:12station gets jammed and has trolls
06:14astronauts want to know how much like
06:16force they can apply to I'm Jam the
06:17hatch because if they apply too much
06:18force and they snap it like you know
06:22so you know they ask NASA what's the
06:26spec for this hatch component and it
06:28takes them several days to figure it out
06:30because there's no there's no record of
06:32that part and eventually they find that
06:34you know the guy that made it 20 years
06:36ago or whatever is retired and as The
06:38Story Goes you know they find the
06:40drawing at his desk drawer you know from
06:42the paperwork that they've managed to
06:44save when the business got shut down and
06:46that was why that was how we knew uh how
06:51um to the bay door to get it open
06:53and for something is Advanced and uh you
06:56know symbolic as International Space
06:57Station like that is that is the ground
06:59floor reality of how the supply chain
07:00Works which is yeah completely markets
07:03that is Bonkers but this as you
07:05mentioned didn't happen overnight right
07:07we didn't wake up one day and have
07:08everything broken so what's happened in
07:11the last couple decades if you know we
07:13Trace back all the way to when some of
07:15these things were being created decades
07:17ago during the first space race what
07:19happened between now and then you know
07:21in the U.S really won World War II
07:23because of manufacturing and Logistics
07:24not because we necessarily had the
07:27shiniest missile or whatever what ended
07:29up happening is we had a really good
07:30aviation industry we had a really strong
07:32automotive industry and we had a really
07:34couple of strong like core manufacturing
07:36Industries so we could very quickly
07:37retool to missile production or fighter
07:39jet production or you know or something
07:40like that after that through the
07:42financialization of everything you know
07:45in the late 70s and the 80s basically
07:46the you know corporate incentive
07:49outsourced everything to you know lower
07:53um like China where we basically
07:55sacrificed robustness for you know
07:57profit and loss uh optimization and
08:01through that we drove a lot of
08:02manufacturing out of the country
08:04and what people real what people don't
08:06realize is that when you do that you
08:08don't just lose that you know base layer
08:11manufacturing of the the cheap stuff you
08:13lose the skill set and the culture that
08:14people know how to manufacture things so
08:16that we went then when we need to retool
08:18it to semiconductor or we need to retool
08:20it to defense production or space
08:21production you know that Talent base and
08:24that capacity just simply doesn't exist
08:26in the system anymore
08:27so um part of the reason is Cost Plus
08:31manufacturing just because everyone's
08:34been so fat and happy in defense for a
08:36long long time you know that flows
08:37through the supply base and really you
08:39know if the government can't really do
08:41anything about it if you're shipping
08:42fighter jets late then does the supply
08:44chain really care about it you know at a
08:46base layer of you know so culturally
08:48basically the entire industry is tooled
08:50up around 50 of our promises we break
08:52all the time and once that sets in and
08:54that becomes like the accepted Norm then
08:56it's really really hard to turn that
08:58turn that needle you know another way
09:00both culturally and systematically
09:03um and then over the last 30 years
09:04because we haven't really had to fight a
09:07great power competitor we've only been
09:09really going up against like a bunch of
09:11people in the Hills or you know some
09:13really really uh you know small
09:16countries or you know basically warlord
09:18bands none of that system has really
09:19been tested because we can just kind of
09:23look scary and people run for the hills
09:25so none of the stresses in the system
09:27have been revealed until now or it's
09:29really really started to break down
09:30rapidly and it's a bit like you know if
09:34um don't maintain your personal health
09:36for like 10 years you know you might
09:38seem fine on the surface but until you
09:40go try and play like a game of touch
09:42football or something with your college
09:44buddies and you realize that your knee
09:45is completely you know it's the
09:47same type of situation where
09:49we think we're fine and it takes 10
09:50years to find out we're not fine but by
09:52that point the rust is kind of set into
09:53the system and we're in a really
09:55dangerous strategic position yeah I mean
09:56I think the fitness analogy is a great
09:59one because everyone can relate to that
10:00idea where they're like oh I'm totally
10:02in shape and they try sprinting 100
10:03meters and even that is like shock to
10:07the system so it sounds like we haven't
10:10kept up but I think there's there's also
10:12something you've talked about which is
10:13that the people who were involved
10:16several decades ago are also starting to
10:18retire so what does that look like how
10:20many companies are actually involved in
10:22this space of advanced manufacturing and
10:24what are we seeing there in terms of
10:25that almost lapsing yeah so there's
10:29something like 20 to 30 000 small
10:31businesses that make up the majority of
10:33the defense industrial base and
10:36I think just to frame this before I go
10:38into the detail basically if you're
10:40making a fighter jet you know you're
10:42actually Outsourcing most of the
10:43assemblies like a wing or an engine to
10:45another company like Pratt and Whitney
10:46and then Pratt Whitney has a network of
10:48you know 2 000 suppliers that give them
10:50the components and they might do some
10:52engineering and then so what these
10:54companies are actually doing is taking a
10:55lot of taking the Lego kits and
10:57assembling them and then throwing the
10:58assembly up another layer and then lock
11:00in finally Stitches the whole thing
11:01together to give an example so it's
11:0530 000 or so of these small
11:06manufacturers that in aggregate makeup
11:09the entire defense industrial base but
11:11individually I like small businesses
11:13where maybe they have 10 to 20 million
11:15in Revenue Max and there's maybe 15 or
11:1720 employees and the danger there is
11:22um because we Outsource manufacturing
11:23and because we culturally decided that
11:26if you don't have a college degree
11:27you're worthless to society
11:29there's been no new entrance to the
11:30manufacturing Workforce because it's not
11:32sexy that's not rewarded in the culture
11:34and because we've had no shocks to the
11:36system no one's realized what a big
11:37problem it is so basically that entire
11:40band of owner operators at that twenty
11:43thousand thirty thousand small business
11:45average age of a worker is like 55
11:48average age of an owner operator who's a
11:50small business owner that is actually
11:51you know needed to function in the
11:54um is 62. so basically you know if you
11:57switch back to the first space race or
12:00you know kind of the Cold War there's a
12:02bunch of 30 year olds that wouldn't
12:03start their businesses
12:05um and now 30 years later they're you
12:07know 60 62. and because we're not
12:11rewarding culturally
12:13um you know being in manufacturing uh
12:15you know all those people were
12:16relatively successful so their sons and
12:18daughters got a college degree so they
12:20don't want to take over the business so
12:22basically we have this problem where the
12:23entire defense and space in
12:25semiconductor industrial bases on this
12:27house of cards of 62 year olds that
12:29through no fault of their own are
12:31there's no one to take over those
12:33businesses and also the knowledge that
12:35is used to make those parts is not like
12:37in some you know GitHub or something uh
12:40where they can pass it on to Lockheed
12:41and say hey someone else can go make
12:43this part if it may or may not be
12:44written down or recorded in their
12:46business it's mostly in some you know
12:48two or three people's heads that have
12:49been making that thing for 10 years and
12:51it is complete art so you know
12:54regardless of capital or Talent at the
12:57IP or the knowledge of how to make that
12:58component is not even fungible or
13:00transferable so you have the situation
13:02where it's not just a matter of throwing
13:04a billion dollars at the uh the problem
13:06and going out scaling some new factories
13:08it's like no literally there's like two
13:10guys in the country that know how to
13:11make this turbine blade for this engine
13:12component and they're always hiring and
13:15once they retire you know good luck now
13:17there's six months of reverse
13:18engineering just to figure it out
13:20um and often this is unlike specialized
13:22equipment one of the Northrop suppliers
13:23this is a couple of years ago but there
13:26are many many examples of this we're
13:27trying to move the production of one
13:29part from one facility to another in a
13:31different state right and part of making
13:33this part is to code it with you know
13:36coat it with a coating that makes the
13:38makes the component work how it's meant
13:40to work so it's like a chemical process
13:42and did all the manufacturing
13:44engineering rehoused it in this new
13:46facility in a different state and they
13:47couldn't get it to work
13:50and they finally figured out that there
13:52was a mineral content of the water in
13:56that was slightly different and
13:57undocumented so the water as part of the
13:59process was different and they literally
14:01couldn't figure it out because you've
14:02got these minor differences in you know
14:03whatever like the localized environment
14:05which can all be controlled for it is
14:07not that scary on an individual basis
14:09but in an aggregate when you think when
14:11you realize that there's like 100
14:12billion dollars a year of these parts
14:13being produced and it's all kind of
14:15crazy like duct tape accidents that it
14:18works at all uh that's kind of like the
14:20situation that we're in as a country
14:21yeah I mean it almost reminds me of
14:24those memes that are like expectations
14:25versus reality and expectations are like
14:29just like this image of let's say like a
14:31SpaceX rocket taking off and you're like
14:32oh my gosh look how far we've come and
14:34then the reality behind it is like these
14:37people about to retire with desktop
14:40drawings in their drawers or in this
14:42case like a specific mineral content in
14:45the water that's that's changing their
14:46ability to produce these products so
14:48I've actually heard you use the term
14:50dangerous when you when you speak to the
14:53point that we're at in in terms of this
14:57this Pipeline and this particular space
14:59of advanced manufacturing and so you
15:02know if someone's listening they might
15:03be like okay a bunch of people are
15:05retiring some people are are not very
15:07keen on the idea of us continuing to
15:09pursue space but would you say you know
15:11to to the average person like what's at
15:13stake here what are we gonna lose if
15:16these people retire and we don't have
15:18these things documented unless we solve
15:20this problem I think the country and you
15:24know our way of life is is a central
15:27risk I mean knowledge I give to people
15:29is if you're living in a small town or
15:31something like that you know we've built
15:33up 200 layers of abstractions in society
15:35so that like you can be an artist or you
15:38can be a painter or like you know you
15:40can be in finance or on crypto or you
15:43know making video games or whatever
15:45happens to be and the reality of the
15:47world is that you know 200 years ago you
15:49know we were killing each other over
15:51food and like it's a it's a miracle in
15:53the first place that we're here and that
15:55you know Society is relatively stable
15:56and like the roads get paid people
15:58forget because they grow up in America
16:00that it's so successful that like you
16:02know they don't have to worry about
16:03having a bulletproof car otherwise if
16:05you have more than like a hundred
16:06thousand dollar net worth someone in the
16:08game might try and steal your daughter
16:09which for the rest of the world is like
16:13um but because you know America is so
16:15isolated culturally you know in most
16:18Americans view of geopolitics is Russia
16:20bad you don't learn those lessons and as
16:22a younger person you don't realize that
16:23you know unless we quote unquote keeps
16:25keep the roads paved like this can all
16:27fall over you know very very quickly so
16:30if you run the scenario of saying okay
16:32right now basically we are successful
16:35because you know we are the world's
16:37police and whether we should play in
16:38that role or not is is obviously Up For
16:40Debate but the reality is is that we are
16:43fine culturally because everyone
16:44understands that if you with
16:46America we will you know put a missile
16:49over your head and you're dead um or if
16:51we go into a great power conflict we
16:53have enough Logistics and infrastructure
16:54to go and win that conflict or released
16:56be scary enough that conflict never
16:58exists in the first place and the
17:00analogy I like to tell people is
17:03you know bar fights happen when both
17:05people mispredict their ability to win
17:07the fight and bar fights don't happen
17:09for three you know two reasons one is
17:11there's two UFC fighters you know
17:13staring down each other and they both
17:15know the cost of a conflict and both the
17:17other person is scary so that fight
17:19never happens or there's a bunch of
17:21morons but there's a bouncer and like
17:22he's big and scary enough that like the
17:24conflict never happens in the first
17:26um but that construct of a bar fight
17:29relies on Impressions and kind of social
17:32trade-offs that like hey enough people
17:35have seen their friend getting beaten up
17:36by a bouncer so I'm probably not going
17:38to even test that assumption that this
17:40is a real thing now the reality of
17:42course is that most police officers the
17:44most bouncers you know are probably
17:46incompetent can probably get taken out
17:48by someone relatively competent as a
17:50civilian but you know we have enough uh
17:53social construct around the concept that
17:55that is a really dumb idea that no one
17:57wants to take the risk and it's what I
18:00describe it in defense land is it's a
18:02lethality Mirage you know lethality
18:04Mirage is basically you know everyone
18:06else's impression of you is that you're
18:07a 10 out of 10 lethals to pay absolutely
18:09not going to with you and then
18:11maybe you lose one small conflict and
18:13someone goes well hold on like maybe
18:15these guys aren't so scary as we thought
18:18um and in reality I think we're about a
18:20a three out of ten and the real danger
18:23comes when you know a great power
18:27finds out before you find out that
18:29you're actually a three out of ten so
18:31the problem with everyone thinking
18:33Advanced manufacturing is in a really
18:35good place is that we don't go fix the
18:37problem you know because culturally
18:38everyone thinks it's fine you know the
18:40roads are getting paved fighter jets get
18:42made you know we're going to a conflict
18:44we're fine in reality we're probably so
18:47far away from doing that that if we have
18:49one conflict with China where we expand
18:51most of our ballistics inventory we
18:54might not be able to remake it for like
18:55five years then we're basically standing
18:57around you know with our hands tied
18:58behind our backs and when there is not
19:01one or two great Powers you know in the
19:03globe kind of keeping the peace that's
19:05when you get fragmentations and you get
19:07deaf spots and dictators pushing the
19:09boundaries of what can be done in their
19:11country and then also they see weakness
19:13and when they start you know moving into
19:15invasions of other countries and we get
19:17back to this kind of multi-polar
19:19so it really is quite serious and
19:22you know to go from the state that we
19:25are currently in where it's kind of the
19:27tail end of you know Pax Americana and
19:29peace through strength to a you know
19:31highly conflicted world is a really
19:32scary position and it's not going to be
19:35oh we go to war it's like oh we go to
19:37war and we lose and also like we don't
19:40have food and like you know the American
19:42Consumer can't buy an iPhone for less
19:44than ten thousand dollars or have
19:46laptops at all you know imagine if GPS
19:48went down imagine if we just didn't have
19:50GPS right so there are obvious impacts
19:53of that in terms of being able to drive
19:54or whatever but all the airlines run on
19:57GPS all the train systems run on GPS our
19:59ability to uh coordinate military
20:02conflict relies on GPS but there are
20:04like less than 50 GPS satellites and
20:07uh all of those could be shot out of the
20:09air pretty easily and all it's
20:11preventing you know some adversary doing
20:13that and basically collapsing western
20:15civilization in one fell Sloop taking
20:17out you know less than 10 satellites for
20:19the cost of maybe 200 million dollars in
20:21lasers or Hypersonic missiles is the
20:24fear that the response from America is
20:26so great that you know we will win any
20:29conflict that's put ahead of us and what
20:31our adversaries are starting to realize
20:33faster than we are realizing is that our
20:35lethality is more like a three out of
20:37ten you know versus an eight or a 10 out
20:39of 10. as as VCS know uh risk happens
20:42slowly and then all all at once yes and
20:44by the time you realize the risk and it
20:46starts cascading it's it's kind of too
20:48late to respond the difference between
20:50this time around and the last time
20:52around was yes risk happened slowly and
20:54then very quickly in World War II but at
20:56least we had the fundamental culture and
20:58infrastructure of a defense industrial
21:00base to be able to go or making great
21:03you know shift that to making fighter
21:05jet chassis and we're kind of okay and
21:07the response time might be 18 months for
21:09two years when you don't have that
21:11fundamental infrastructure you know the
21:13response time can be 10 years and you're
21:16in a really serious position where
21:17you're caught with your hands behind
21:18your back and you can't respond but
21:19everyone knows you can't respond and
21:21then basically everyone can you know run
21:22around doing whatever they want and
21:23that's how you get you know the collapse
21:25of society you know as soon as someone
21:27realizes the police force are
21:29incompetent you get a bunch of Bad
21:30actors that creep through the system and
21:32that's basically the state that we're at
21:33but not just kind of a localized bar
21:35fire level but like at you know how the
21:38globe operates in general
21:40um so yeah it's incredibly scary and I
21:42think people are going to get a really
21:44hard wake-up call on the next in the
21:45next two years I mean I think he brought
21:47up a lot of good points there one of
21:48them is this idea of space that many
21:50people think is a frivolous Endeavor but
21:53what happens in space directly impacts
21:55what happens on Earth you mentioned GPS
21:56but it's also whether it's also
21:58agriculture it's us understanding
21:59climate change all of this happens
22:02within space but I think you've also
22:04brought up the defense side and then
22:05even if people aren't interested in
22:07either of those there is the direct
22:10relationship to manufacturing that
22:12happens with as you mentioned iPhones
22:14but also medical devices semiconductors
22:16which are in so many of the devices that
22:18we use this is all part of advanced
22:20manufacturing and so I think it's
22:21important for people to realize that you
22:23know even if they they don't believe in
22:25this idea of American dynamism which we
22:27obviously do there are direct
22:29correlations to their everyday life that
22:32will happen if we don't have this
22:35you know even even if you're an EA type
22:37of person or you know you're a pacifist
22:39or whatever or if you're into climate
22:41change or like you know pick any
22:43industry that you think is important
22:44like Good Luck running compute on gpt3
22:47there are no chips or China takes Taiwan
22:50and then the only chips you can buy have
22:53like a bug in them you know like it's
22:55it's not that hard to take a line to
22:57draw and it's like very serious you know
22:59well I want to understand this idea of
23:01onshoring or bringing some of this
23:03technology back to the system in the
23:05United States and what I want to
23:07understand here is it sounds like there
23:09is a Delta between where we are and
23:11where we want to be and how much of that
23:13Delta is broken down into the investment
23:15in the space versus the talent available
23:17or the technology that we have available
23:19or even is it is it just a matter of
23:22time for us to catch up
23:24obviously it's a you know multivariate
23:27equation but what would you say are the
23:29the most important drivers or maybe the
23:31things that are underrated by people
23:33because I I would imagine that some
23:34folks might just say okay let's just
23:36pour a trillion dollars into this well
23:38that'll fix the problem but will it
23:40won't and the most important bit is uh
23:45if you if you think about software
23:49and you want to you want to solve the
23:51problem of how can we produce more data
23:53scientists or people that are capable of
23:55working at open AI or something like
23:56that you know which is arguably like the
23:59top tier of software engineering the way
24:01that you get more of those people is
24:02having this base layer of you know
24:04application developers and then front
24:06and back-end engineers and then more
24:08hardcore back engineers and sres and the
24:10data scientists and you know maybe you
24:12have a million people you produce like a
24:14thousand really incredible people in
24:16these like domain spaces and knowledge
24:18like science knowledge stacks on each
24:20other you have this Talent competition
24:21and you produce amazing people in these
24:23fields like you know us doesn't have the
24:26uh track team that goes and wins the
24:28Olympics unless we have you know
24:30thousands of colleges that are really
24:32competitive for track and field right
24:33that's that's how it goes and to take
24:37that Sports example you can't just start
24:39from a cold start and say well we want
24:40to be competitive uh we want to go blow
24:43a trillion dollars and win the Olympics
24:45it doesn't work like that you know that
24:47that takes years and years of training
24:48you need to get people 14 you need to
24:50train them up like it's a cultural thing
24:52like why would a kid want to go do
24:54Sports in the first place and in America
24:55we have that problem solved because
24:57America loves sports like the Romans did
24:59and it makes sense so if you think about
25:01that from manufacturing Talent level
25:03you know you want to go solve uh
25:05rocketry or defense or hypersonics or
25:08semiconductor it's not a capital problem
25:10it's a where are the people that are
25:13going to go engineer that system and
25:14then run that system and the red the
25:16reality is they don't exist
25:18um so what the impact of that is is time
25:22so you know you look at the
25:24semiconductor problem and go how fast
25:26can we reach your semiconductor the
25:28reality is you know the button
25:30Administration gives Intel 50 billion
25:32um that's arguably the hardest you know
25:35that's the heavy work division of
25:36manufacturing and the talent doesn't
25:37exist you know you can't go and hire 20
25:40000 people or even a thousand people
25:43how to go and execute that construction
25:45how to go engineer that factory how to
25:47go run that factory they just simply
25:51um and you cannot simply go and train
25:55someone up in even three years to go
25:56from like you know Junior College you
26:00know a track and Fields or like winning
26:01the Olympics it doesn't it doesn't work
26:03like that you know you need the coaches
26:04you need the entire cultural
26:05infrastructure so that's really what we
26:08lost when we outsourced Manufacturing in
26:10the 80s is there is no Talent base uh
26:13that is generative of the genius types
26:16of people that can actually go and do
26:17all these Advanced things and that is
26:19the thing that people don't realize is
26:21yeah it's not it's not a capital problem
26:23it's a time and investment problem and
26:25you have to have the base layers there
26:27to be able to be able to execute the
26:28hard stuff yeah using the fitness
26:29analogy it's like taking the Olympians
26:31from 30 years ago and saying we're just
26:33gonna toss them back in and compete in
26:35the next Olympics and it's like it
26:37doesn't really work that way or like hey
26:40we've you know if we've got these kids
26:41and they kind of fit and by the way
26:43training program and in two years
26:44they'll be winning the Olympics like it
26:45doesn't work like right definitely okay
26:48so it sounds like what Hadrian is doing
26:50to solve this problem is a mix between
26:52fixing the talent Pipeline and also
26:55using technology so let's return to the
26:56talent but how how are we using
26:58technology to fix this problem so the
27:01way we look at it is there's like five
27:03or six core parts of high Precision
27:06Machining some are lower skilled than
27:08others but they're all pretty highly
27:09skilled so what we are doing is
27:12basically at each part of the factory
27:15um developing software uh basically
27:19grabbing the last smart people in each
27:22of those domains that exist and pairing
27:25them with the best software Engineers
27:26that we can find and saying go go
27:28automate as much as possible that you
27:30know that part of the skill
27:32and in reality you can only over
27:34automate you know 60 to 80 of that
27:37um you know some of it is just like the
27:38technology curve doesn't exist you know
27:40you're like waiting for 10 years of
27:42Machine Vision to catch up so you know
27:44the job of a startup is to industrialize
27:46you know research or existing technology
27:48and apply it to a new domain it's not
27:50good it's not sit there with 40 phds and
27:52you know try and create something that's
27:54like high risk that is like the science
27:56so we grab we grab and integrate
28:00um and build software around those you
28:02know Talent bases to remove the boring
28:05stuff automate what we can
28:07um and then the last 20 or 30 where it's
28:09impossible to automate
28:11we build software that is highly process
28:13driven where we can throw someone new to
28:16that role in there within 30 to 90 days
28:19depending on the role they can be
28:20trained up into that and have enough
28:21staff holding that if they just kind of
28:23follow the instructions they will like
28:25get 90 of the way there and for some
28:27for some parts of high Precision
28:30Machining that is way harder than you
28:34um but basically we're using technology
28:36to solve the talent problem
28:38um and then when we can't use technology
28:40we have to simplify it so that you can
28:42hire in someone who has had no Aerospace
28:45experience and they're making flight
28:46hardware for a rocket program in you
28:48know 30 to 60 days because for us to
28:50scale out to replace the 50 billion so
28:54let's argue that we can get to 10
28:56um you know we can't go and hire our
28:58going machinists we have to we have to
29:01automate our way so we can only we can
29:03go train a hundred thousand and that is
29:05like barely doable but it has to be a
29:07combination of yeah solving the talent
29:09Pipeline and using using automation to
29:11basically like lower the burden of that
29:12Talent pipeline problem um and then
29:15focusing on the areas where Talent is
29:17gets or harder to come by as well as
29:19attracting as much as possible entrance
29:21to the new Workforce which is why you
29:23know branding and marketing is so
29:25important in speaking about this problem
29:26over and over and over again because
29:28people don't know it's a problem and
29:30then they realize like Oh I'm a software
29:31engineer at Google I can actually
29:33contribute here or I work in hospitality
29:35and I can actually like you know get in
29:37the fight and help help solve this
29:38problem is really important from that
29:40aspect as well and that's why the
29:41cultural reward system where like
29:43manufacturing is not really sexy is a
29:45huge problem because you know unless
29:47this is going to sound dumb but like
29:49unless some 19 year old from like you
29:51know UCLA can go you know basically like
29:54convince some hot girl at a bar that
29:55like manufacturing is cool then like why
29:57why would they ever go shoot for
29:59manufacturing versus going to work for
30:01Google or Goldman Sachs you know and
30:02that's that's a huge this is why I keep
30:04going back to the cultural challenge
30:05Because unless it's awesome and
30:07celebrated you know that's a that's a
30:09really really hard problem to solve yeah
30:11I actually met one of your newly trained
30:14or currently trained machinists who used
30:16to be a copywriter Everest I think last
30:18week at La Tech University
30:20um yeah and so it is a fascinating
30:22process that you guys are undertaking to
30:26take people who aren't within this fear
30:27and training them up to be machinists
30:29and something I've heard you talk about
30:31before is this maybe counter-intuitive
30:33idea that to actually take the existing
30:36systems you need to simplify them in
30:38order to enable these new jobs right
30:40because you can't train a previous
30:43copywriter to be The Machinist from 30
30:45years ago that can do everything that
30:47that person did but if you do simplify
30:49those processes that opens up the job
30:52pipeline for many of these people to to
30:55become that that machinist totally and
30:57this is something that software
30:59engineering has done done really well
31:00where there's like a clear delineation
31:02between SRE devops data science
31:05front-end back-end you know and
31:07different tiers within that and
31:09traditionally Machining is often vain
31:10there's one guy that does 90 of the that
31:13whole outline themselves so there's no
31:16clear snap-off points where there's a
31:18degradation of skill where you can kind
31:20of put someone here and then they learn
31:21the next run it's all one person solo
31:24operating the entire thing which just
31:25just doesn't scale how do you convince
31:27the existing machinist to transfer this
31:31knowledge I'd imagine there's some sort
31:33of incentive that you need to put into
31:35place because I mean maybe I'm wrong
31:38about this but I imagine they they might
31:40feel like their jobs are being automated
31:41away or that they're being replaced in
31:43some way and of course some of them it
31:45sounds like they're planning to retire
31:46but how do you actually convince the
31:48person who has all this knowledge to to
31:50want to share it and be part of this new
31:52system I think there's a couple of
31:54things the first one is the smartest and
31:57best people know that the industry is
31:58due for a transformation and that it's
32:01inevitable that someone's going to come
32:02along and do this and they want to be
32:03part of the winning team not not left
32:06behind so that's a big part of it yeah
32:07incentives really matter and I think
32:10culturally in manufacturing you don't
32:12get many opportunities for growth and
32:14there's a bunch of really smart people
32:15out there who've been kind of siled and
32:17not given the opportunity to you know
32:19stretch and grow and I think
32:21culturally they understand it if we're
32:23automating one part of the factory we're
32:25not going to suddenly like fire 20
32:26people like no no you go pick whatever
32:29else you want to do you know
32:30manufacturing engineering or CMM or a
32:33higher skill level of Cam programming
32:37and I think the other thing is yeah
32:39incentives really matter and I think
32:40we're probably the only Factory on the
32:42planet outside of SpaceX that is giving
32:44everyone in these roles you know the
32:46same uh tier of equity as the best
32:49software Engineers have you know our
32:52every technician in Hadrian whether
32:53you're packing boxes or whether you're
32:56an absolute master of your trade and
32:58maybe you you know you're one of the
32:59only 20 people left that can do it is
33:01being given the opportunity to have you
33:04know probably the only opportunity
33:06they've ever had to create generational
33:07wealth for them and their families and
33:09with that here in honor of the company
33:11and then you're highly incentivized to
33:13contribute to the system instead of
33:15being like well I'm on 40 an hour and
33:18this guy's on 20 an hour and I'm on
33:19forty dollars an hour because I have
33:21this tribal knowledge why why would I go
33:23and share it because that's what you
33:25know that's the incentive and that's why
33:27like oddly there is no like stack
33:30Overflow for a machining because I I
33:33think it's basically a function of uh
33:35the fact that manufacturing has been an
33:38hourly Workforce for such a long time
33:40even the highest skilled positions
33:41because then you get this like weird
33:43localized competitive set where even
33:45within your facility you're not really
33:47wanting to train or contribute to people
33:48because you're putting your own you know
33:51um whereas in software engineering your
33:53salary you're in high demand you know
33:55it's more about sharing knowledge and
33:57going as fast as possible and I think
33:59yeah that all comes down to culture but
34:00I think that actually gets driven off
34:02like historical being an hourly position
34:04for such a long time with no meaningful
34:06Equity upside because then why would you
34:09share your knowledge if you know you're
34:11just going to train someone to replace
34:12you or you know the owner of the crappy
34:15factory that yells at you every day of
34:16why the part is late you know is is no
34:19longer incentivized to give you a higher
34:20higher you know hourly wage you know
34:22yeah totally and and obviously there's
34:24positives and negatives to each of those
34:26cultures but something I've heard you
34:28talk about before is you have
34:30all of those different roles sit
34:33together at lunch were actually meld
34:35together in a way so that there isn't
34:37like the software Engineers here and
34:38then the new machine is here and the old
34:40machine is elsewhere and so can you
34:42speak a little bit to that and what
34:43you're seeing in terms of what aspects
34:45of each culture are being brought
34:47together and and highlighted yeah I
34:49think and again we're not perfect we're
34:51probably everyone's doing it at all but
34:53many many many challenges
34:56um I think the first one is making sure
34:59that the software engineering team
35:00understands that uh the person that's
35:03operating is the is the Golden Goose and
35:06they are the customer and changing that
35:08mindset from I was this internal team
35:10that does some function you know it's
35:12like the customer service team at a SAS
35:13startup like who cares you know whatever
35:16but if the customers if it's SAS
35:18customer screens and says we need this
35:19feature like everyone knows to go and
35:21jump so making sure we understand our
35:23internal team is the customer of what
35:25we're building and you know if they have
35:27a one hour of downtime it's a really
35:28serious problem and also their happiness
35:30as a user is like a really a really
35:32serious problem and that creates this
35:34interesting Dynamic where yeah you've
35:37got like technicians that are you know
35:38on hourly wage or whatever and they're
35:40the software engineer from Strife
35:41running around being like oh this
35:43guy thinks my product is terrible like
35:45you know this is really this is a really
35:47serious issue and that that means a lot
35:49the big problem to solve is continually
35:51reinforcing that everyone's working hard
35:53and they're you know there are different
35:54challenges and I think people are not
35:55from a software domain are like why do
35:57people this feature and it's like that
35:59is six months of twos off for engineers
36:00and yes I understand it's painful but
36:02like you know so continually like
36:05melding those communication streams
36:07together and letting people you know
36:09understand each other's worlds is really
36:10important I mean the ultimate Hadrian
36:12employee would be like a person filling
36:14out quality paperwork who was also
36:16always a software engineer so that like
36:17the localized pain they would just go
36:21um or or vice versa so yeah there are
36:24many many challenges to getting that
36:26right but the important thing is to like
36:28have have some shared pain both ways and
36:31then make sure that the interaction is
36:32like operator gives feedback software
36:34engineer picks it up but you know the
36:37rating the really difficult part is like
36:39this is really this is really painful
36:40for you but it's also six months of
36:42software engineering so it's getting
36:43de-prioritized but like how do you make
36:44sure that is actually understood and
36:47communicated throughout a rapidly
36:48growing organization is an incredibly
36:50hard incredibly hard problem and even
36:52really simple things like making sure
36:55software Engineers are out on a factory
36:57floor as much as humanly possible
36:58sitting behind operators and even doing
37:01their jobs where possible
37:03um is incredibly important culturally
37:04and also just for like decentralizing
37:06the product learning I mean there's this
37:08classic trap of like you think the
37:09product's good and it's not and then
37:11whatever feedback mechanism you got is
37:13imperfect so trying to get it down to
37:15single threaded like the person that's
37:17building the automation for this part of
37:18the product is capable of actually doing
37:21that job and is forced to do that job
37:22every couple of weeks and like relearn
37:24the real real user pain is is an
37:28enormous challenge but is probably the
37:30most important thing that we can be
37:32doing to maintain that culture at scale
37:34as we're rapidly grow yeah I mean you
37:36hear of some companies doing this like
37:38if you work at Airbnb you're encouraged
37:40to stay at airbnbs and understand the
37:42product but this is obviously a
37:43different level of that something that
37:45stood out to me though is is you
37:47speaking to obviously this is a really
37:48hard problem to solve and I think you
37:50know people say that anything that
37:52integrates into some form of Hardware
37:54not just you know software and bytes is
37:57like playing on hard mode and I can
37:59speak to that I mean I've as in I've
38:01mostly worked in in the arena of bytes
38:04and even within the marketing sphere and
38:07So within that sphere you can just kind
38:08of a B test the out of everything
38:10if you're unsure you test it right if
38:12you have the right amount of traffic uh
38:14with hard but where you can't really do
38:16that and so I'm curious to know as
38:18you're building this company how are you
38:21deciding what bets to take and also like
38:25what signals are you looking for to make
38:27sure that you're on the right track
38:28because you don't have you know millions
38:30of page views that you can just test to
38:33get the signal from that noise yeah
38:35that's a that's a really good question
38:38very obvious projects that from the
38:41outset everyone knows are the biggest
38:42points of pain whether it's time or
38:45annoyance or whatever it is and then you
38:48can't sit in a room for three years and
38:49try and build an automated Factory is
38:51because you only really know what's
38:52actually what actually matters and what
38:54doesn't matter at all is by running a
38:56factory and then being very prepared to
38:59rip up off your roadmap and realize that
39:00what you know what you've been doing for
39:02the last year was an assumption and not
39:04reality so yeah you can observe a lot of
39:06pain you can observe where bottlenecks
39:07appear that you didn't expect them to
39:10um and there are two layers to that one
39:12is like a localized layer like okay what
39:14is causing this team this amount of
39:16downtime or pain or effort but then the
39:19factory level what is producing costs
39:21outside those localized things because
39:23in the real world you can have a highly
39:25optimized process over here but if it's
39:27spitting out unclear results or there's
39:29some like stochastic variability then
39:31very quickly the factory can go from
39:33smooth to chaos and all of a sudden 30
39:34of the doubt 30 of the people in the
39:36downstream roles are like dealing with
39:38the poor outputs of this other thing so
39:40constantly going up and down those
39:42layers and making sure kind of each team
39:44has the ability to screen for what they
39:46need but then also having observability
39:48of the factory itself and going like
39:49yeah you guys think the cost is here and
39:52it is but we're not solving it here
39:55we're going to solve it here because
39:56that's that that was actually the
39:58original root cause of why this issue
40:00came across here and some of that is
40:01systems some of that is just really good
40:03foundational operational leadership and
40:06you know being intellectually honest
40:08enough to go like yeah this is not like
40:10a paperwork problem this is because like
40:12a customer did this and we need to build
40:14a product around here because that's
40:15actually what prevents all these
40:17Downstream issues and the other problem
40:18that people don't realize and you were
40:19talking about you know marketing data no
40:22Factory on the planet has observability
40:24so you can't simply and maybe like
40:27Foxconn does but you can't simply throw
40:30open a dashboard and go what is my
40:31uptime where are the costs for this job
40:34how much labor did we spend on it it's
40:36all kind of swags and like fuzzy maths
40:39and people standing around you know
40:40trying to do time studies which have
40:42their own psychological flaws you know
40:44so a big part of the technology that
40:47we're building is a factory data
40:49platform where all of the people and all
40:51of the hardware are hooked up to One
40:53internal data service so that and it
40:56took us like a year to build this and
40:57we're still three months away from like
40:59having it operationalized so that
41:01everyone in the automation team and
41:03operations can look at it and go oh
41:06we actually thought we were really
41:07efficient over here but we're not and
41:09then it becomes much more clear where
41:10where the costs and the systems are but
41:12even getting to that point is
41:14a bunch of software engineering that no
41:16one has ever done purely to solve the
41:18observability problem then it becomes
41:19much more obvious to everybody where
41:21where to point resources and where the
41:23pain is coming from yeah that's
41:25fascinating because again bringing my
41:28experience from marketing
41:30there's so many times where you think
41:31something is an issue or some article is
41:33going to work or some landing page copy
41:35is going to be best and you're wrong all
41:38the time and so if you really don't have
41:39that data layer it's so hard to tell
41:41what's truly going on and I'm curious to
41:44know how that impacts the End customer
41:46right so if you're a SpaceX or an
41:48Android buying parts uh through Hadrian
41:50do they get access to that data and if
41:53so how does that impact that
41:54relationship compared to what they're
41:56used to experiencing and what customers
41:58want is effectively like devops level
42:00visibility that's not muddied by human
42:04aggressiveness or hey we'll get the job
42:06done don't worry we'll you know we'll
42:08call it out of the fire so you know like
42:10the world's best Gantt chart basically
42:11uh to build that though you need the
42:14entire factory data system to get that
42:16data because if you just have you know
42:17the flex support strategy in the early
42:19days was you know build the customer
42:21portal first and then have a bunch of
42:23like analysts just like typing in
42:25shipping and receiving data you can't do
42:27that in manufacturing because it's so
42:28complicated and you have all these like
42:29culture issues of people are always
42:31going to say I'm going to get the job
42:32done and that's not because they're
42:34lying it's because like you know they're
42:36gonna they got white line fever they're
42:38going to get the job done we're a couple
42:40of weeks ish away from launching this to
42:42customers because it took so long to
42:43build that internal scaffolding to give
42:45people the data but yes it's like even
42:47now we're sending like just Excel
42:49spreadsheet summaries of like hey here's
42:50where we're at on this production run
42:51and people are literally responding like
42:53this is amazing like no one's no one's
42:55ever given this day this data which is
42:56from from like software land is
42:58completely insane it would be like you
43:00know AWS not having a dashboard of like
43:02what's your what's your like SLA up time
43:06um that's a really hard problem to solve
43:08yeah that's what customers want is like
43:09no this is a this is a platform it's a
43:12observability and then when things do go
43:15wrong you're learning about it an hour
43:17after it goes wrong not six weeks down
43:19the track when like we have to face up
43:21to the problem and we can't ship parts
43:23um which seems Seems crazy from everyone
43:25outside the industry but it's like uh
43:27yeah it's like a magic wand to everybody
43:29else in the industry yeah I mean even
43:30extrapolating past Advanced
43:32manufacturing I think it's just like a
43:34cultural phenomena that we expect these
43:36updates like even if you talk about like
43:38ordering from Amazon people have come to
43:40expect my package is going to arrive on
43:42this date and if it's not I'm gonna get
43:43a notification and only some small
43:46fraction of of packages get delayed
43:47within that sphere and of course
43:49Advanced manufacturing is much more
43:50complex there's many more reasons why
43:52you can't have that level of precision
43:54but it is I think like again a cultural
43:57phenomena that you you have come to
43:59expect that kind of of system and it's
44:02interesting that this is now being
44:04implemented within Advanced
44:07um I'm I'm curious to know within the
44:10the spectrum of of Hadrian
44:13and and your customers with this
44:15implemented let's say you do get to the
44:17point where you have that Precision
44:20what happens you know the the obvious
44:22thing is like okay a rock rocket gets uh
44:25shipped on time but how does that
44:27actually influence the wider industry
44:29does this mean that because things are
44:31being shipped on time companies have you
44:34know better margins because they operate
44:35better and therefore more companies can
44:37enter the space or can you speak to like
44:39the downstream or you could say like
44:40second third order effects of actually
44:42having that system in place yeah so if
44:44you you if you skip a couple of years
44:45ahead and like everything is being done
44:47through Hadrian whether we're building
44:48it first party but like either
44:50everything is being shipped on time or
44:52you've got four warning where
44:54something's going wrong two big things
44:58something like 50 of the total cost of a
45:02product like a satellite for example is
45:06through delays or inventory levels which
45:09you shouldn't need to have so as as an
45:13if you think about a Gantt chart to
45:15build a satellite and there's it takes
45:1790 days and you know you do this piece
45:19first and this piece first and all the
45:20parts have to arrive on time firstly
45:22because the supply chain is super
45:24unreliable no one is building that Gantt
45:27chart super tightly they're building it
45:29with about 50 of slack in it because you
45:32know you can't rely on those inputs
45:34coming in at the right time so once we
45:36get customers to a point where they know
45:38that if we say here is the date it's
45:41reliable everyone can compress their
45:43schedules around that reliability and
45:45that and because manufacturing you know
45:47time is payroll cost it's working
45:49capital of inventory it's a build rate
45:51it's if you just compress time in
45:53manufacturing you just win on cost and
45:56so so I think that most of the products
45:58will be able to drop their manufacturing
46:00costs by like 30 to 50 not because of
46:02Cheaper Parts but because of the
46:04reliability and the ability to compress
46:06schedule around that reliability the
46:08second point is forward notice of Errors
46:11so if you have a manufacturing line down
46:13because some Venda was giving you a
46:16bunch of satellite parts and you
46:18expected them on Monday and then you
46:19find out on Monday they're not going to
46:20come from for two weeks which happens
46:23like 30 to 40 percent of the purchase
46:25orders that Dynamic happens
46:27then you've literally got people
46:28standing around and they can't they
46:29can't do anything which is a huge
46:33and another CEO I was talking to last
46:35week basically you know and the way
46:38Aerospace works is you have an order
46:39book and then you can't book Revenue
46:41until you actually deliver your
46:42satellite or your product or whatever
46:44and they would have had an extra billion
46:46dollars in Revenue last quarter had more
46:49of their parts being delivered on time
46:50growth is slowing because they can't
46:52meet their order book not because
46:54they're not working hard because the
46:55supply chain is a complete is a complete
46:57mess so you know the example I will give
46:59is like you know if you're a back-end
47:01software engineer and like you weren't
47:03really sure whether you could spin up a
47:04new like uh ec2 instance or not and like
47:07it might take three months it might take
47:09a week like you you don't know so all of
47:13your Sprint planning is out the door all
47:15of your like can I get this product out
47:17to the customer and compete is out the
47:18door and potentially you're sitting
47:20around as a back-end software engineer
47:21like twiddling your thumbs for three
47:23weeks because you're blocked on this
47:25core piece of infrastructure
47:27um so like imagine if you know there was
47:30no supply chain team and all these smart
47:31people could be doing more value added
47:33versus like calling Bob's machine shop
47:36three times a week being like Bob have
47:37you put the parts on the machine yet and
47:38getting lied to or the aerospace
47:40engineers themselves like not not
47:43waiting for parts for six weeks and
47:45being able to have Parts every two weeks
47:46so that they can like make a test
47:47satellite and blow it up and then
47:49iterate really really fast when I when I
47:51say like we can let companies move 10x
47:54faster and you know lower their cost of
47:56manufacturing by 50 I don't mean because
47:57we're cheaper and we are cheaper than we
47:59can be but the main benefit is that you
48:01have this High reliability
48:02infrastructure layer so you can compress
48:04schedule around it and like that's
48:06that's the huge win is
48:08you know you can make a fighter jet in
48:10six months not 12 months and that that's
48:11what makes it 150 million not 300
48:14million yeah I mean I'm I'm coming back
48:16to this meme of expectations versus
48:18reality and you imagine like these very
48:21very talented machinists and you picture
48:22what their their job is from the outside
48:24and then really it's it's calling Bob's
48:26machine shop three times a week being
48:28like where's my part uh so I think yeah
48:30a lot of that is is Illuminating to to
48:33realize that the the supply chain of
48:37um but with the use of technology and
48:39and training the right people can be
48:42um but within Hadrian itself what would
48:45you say the key risks are so so this
48:48paints a really really interesting
48:49picture of what we can do to solve the
48:51problem if Hadrian were to fail why
48:54would that be would it be financing
48:56would it be you know a miscalculation on
48:59on how complex some of these systems are
49:01what do you think you know some of the
49:02the key risks are yeah I I think the
49:05broad risk of Hadrian is that it's just
49:06unbelievably complicated if one piece
49:09doesn't work then the whole thing
49:10doesn't work so the execution you know
49:13it's a complex coordination problem to
49:14take a to take a teal uh meme I think
49:17the second problem is as the business
49:19grows the reality that the truth seeking
49:21of like is this automation possible
49:23within X time frame and how we're
49:25planning ahead and count around that is
49:26is is really really hard because you
49:28have to make sure that people are being
49:30realistic around are we actually saving
49:33time with this or did we just build
49:34scaffolding for this process which is
49:36totally fine like you can't really build
49:37automation until you have to Scaffolding
49:39in the process but recruiting cycle of
49:41someone highly skilled it might take
49:42three months and as you're growing
49:44Revenue at an exponential monthly rate
49:47and you're booking customer sales on
49:49your ability to deliver that and you're
49:51expecting the automation curve to go
49:53here and intersect your hiring plan here
49:56and the automation curve turns out to be
49:58here and you have this Gap it's not as
50:00simple as hey we're breaking even on
50:03this part of the project let's just put
50:04more labor into it for another 12 months
50:06because you can't hire into that gap for
50:07three months and then you behind the
50:09April and then customers hate you and
50:10like so the prediction of when projects
50:13are going to land and when things may or
50:15may not be industrialized as a new piece
50:18of automation or process is
50:20is really really hard
50:21and then the other thing I think the
50:23third big risk is in manufacturing if
50:25you have a bad process and a bad process
50:27maybe is like something that generates
50:29an error more than one out of a hundred
50:32um that's not like a mistake it's like
50:34okay now this has Downstream impacts on
50:36schedule or you know this machine is
50:38down or whatever if you scale before
50:40there is a level of error proofing that
50:44you end up scaling to a point something
50:46was happening once a week now happens
50:48100 times a week and there's so much
50:49negative work in the system that like
50:51yes not only do you make no money but
50:52then like you're chasing your tail and
50:54now you're behind on everything and you
50:55start this like really dangerous kind of
50:57like negative spiral of negative work
50:59and I think having the discipline to
51:02understand where that point is and
51:04continually say no to customers even
51:06though they really want stuff which is
51:08really exciting and like you know I want
51:10to grow a massive business so I also
51:12want to scale as fast as possible but if
51:14you go too fast before you're really
51:18um and have that level of error
51:19reduction you can basically blow
51:20yourself up and you won't even know
51:22what's happening until the last minute
51:23once you've told customers you're ready
51:25to go and you're ready to scale and then
51:26you blow up a production order and you
51:28like break the promise that like hey we
51:29won't ever have a launch delay because
51:31of us then you lose the magic right and
51:33start startups can basically survive
51:35infinitely as long as as long as you
51:37hold the magic so that is something that
51:39I think about a lot is when is the right
51:41time to push those buttons and one level
51:43of scaling can we do now is how do we
51:45need to be disciplined around error
51:46reduction versus you know shooting
51:48ourselves on the foot yeah I mean every
51:51company deals with some amount of
51:52technical debt but you're right that
51:53hitting that scale button too soon can
51:55can really exponentially increase that
51:58amount one of the things that I think
52:01you explored originally when you
52:02discovered this problem was okay a bunch
52:04of people are retiring these machine
52:05shops may go out of business why don't I
52:08just acquire them why don't I do like a
52:09private Equity play and just acquire
52:10these shops instead of doing what you've
52:12done now which is more so build the
52:14technology train individuals to to
52:16service them or almost like absorb that
52:19that intelligence so can you tell us a
52:22little bit more about why you pivoted
52:25there and why you didn't go with that
52:26original approach one of the things that
52:29you know you don't really learn until
52:30you're in the weeds is every every piece
52:33of Hardware variability whether that's a
52:35different machine or a different cutting
52:37tool or a different visual piece of work
52:39holding every new combination of those
52:42things that you add on to the kind of
52:43like the search space the problem has a
52:46non-linear impact on the software
52:48engineering complexity that you need to
52:50build to like you know get to that
52:52getaway level of automation that
52:53actually solves a problem versus just
52:55hey you're 20 better than your
52:56competitors so you have a great private
52:58Equity roll up it wasn't until I was in
52:59the weeds of that problem that I
53:00realized that most Legacy machine shops
53:03have one of every machine ever made and
53:06even within you know they have 20
53:08machines five of them might be the same
53:10but even those five are set up a
53:11completely different way and that adds
53:13this enormous non-linear complexity in
53:16terms of the software automation that
53:18you have to build on top of those
53:19systems to the point where it's it's
53:21close enough to Impossible that you can
53:22call it impossible and you can squeeze
53:25out some margin Improvement but you
53:28would never ever get it to the point
53:29where it was a scalable system or it was
53:32repeatable enough that it was you know
53:34gonna solve the problem at the kind of
53:36multi-billion dollar level that I want
53:37to solve the problem at so that was that
53:39was the core reason why you have to
53:41build you have to build this from
53:43scratch Hardware are hand in hand with
53:45software hand in hand with processors is
53:47so you're making those localized
53:49trade-offs and you can standardize the
53:51to be able to abstract it into software
53:53to be able to abstract that into process
53:55and now that we have now that we have
53:57the base of that with clear line of
53:58sight to what that looks like at scale
54:00then we're actually going back into
54:02Acquisitions because then we can
54:03reliably say to customers and machine
54:06shop owners who want to exit is one we
54:10actually know what we're doing now
54:11secondly we have this standardized
54:13system so to transfer you know a legacy
54:16machine shops parts to Hadrian it's it's
54:18there is a process whether it's a new
54:20customer order or whether it's an
54:21acquisition it doesn't it doesn't matter
54:23there is now a clean funnel of which
54:24this can be done and then in terms of
54:26training and re-skilling some of these
54:28people that we acquire might want to
54:29stay on for the journey and that's great
54:30and now we have this kind of integrated
54:32system where we can plug them in and
54:33they can learn new skills and they can
54:35be like a part of the winning team but
54:37without building all that from scratch
54:39you never have that core of like what is
54:41great what does great look like and then
54:43how can you you know merge people into
54:45that starting from a incredibly
54:48Divergent Hardware base and process
54:50space it's almost impossible to go in
54:52and clean that up both culturally and
54:54then just like systematically it's
54:55either like cool now you're doing 200
54:57Hardware Integrations instead of three
54:58it's just like it's impossible you know
55:00yeah I mean the complexity is is hard
55:02enough within one one of those shops
55:04something that I noticed on your jobs
55:05page is that you have around 20 open
55:07jobs at the moment it's always changing
55:09but they're so many different types of
55:11jobs as well so there's data scientists
55:13there's mechatronics Engineers they're
55:15security officers they're sales people
55:16we talked about the importance of
55:18marketing within this space as well but
55:21I'm curious to know across the spectrum
55:22that you're working in what talent is
55:25most needed right now like what are
55:26there are there specific types of folks
55:28that you just wish there was like 10x
55:32yeah and the reality is it's everybody
55:35um the reality is it's everybody I think
55:36that's a way of my hand I would say
55:39give me a hundred software Engineers
55:43that worked at a startup and then worked
55:45at Big Tech but actually have an
55:46aerospace engineering degree and did an
55:48internship with Boeing because where we
55:52see people go the fastest is they have
55:54high context around what the real
55:56problem is versus having to kind of like
55:58learn the ropes on what is what is
56:00manufacturing what is aerospace
56:01engineering so that would be like the
56:02magic wand which which obviously doesn't
56:04exist I was gonna say how many people
56:06fit that bill three handfuls yeah apples
56:11um the factory Talent is yes we always
56:14need more people but there's no like one
56:16critical Talent base where we're really
56:19really struggling I think in terms of
56:21automation yeah we just need all hands
56:24on deck and I think what people don't
56:26realize that we struggle with sometimes
56:28in recruiting or at least have to over
56:31message you know to make sure people
56:33understand is that you don't need a
56:36hardware or manufacturing background to
56:37come into a business like Hadrian or
56:40SpaceX or Android to be able to
56:42you know being a competitive candidate
56:44or create value you know with your
56:47software skills like a lot of what we're
56:49building looks and smells like
56:50Enterprise SAS except our customers
56:52internal users not external users um and
56:55even the detect side is very close to
56:57like you know if you're a developer
56:58that's been working on like unity and
57:01building like video game you know
57:03geometry engines and stuff like that uh
57:05that's that is very close to the
57:07software engineering we're doing
57:08internally and even integrating with the
57:10hardware if you're the type of software
57:12engineer that is okay with like reverse
57:14engineering some crappy API you know
57:16which anyone from like a Rippling for
57:18example is done with like some crappy
57:20payroll API from the one vendor that
57:22like doesn't have it fully documented
57:24that's the exact same problem space and
57:26I would say that tons and tons of
57:28software Engineers need to kind of get
57:30it through their head that it's all just
57:32regular software engineering problems
57:34hard software engineering problems you
57:36know don't get me wrong but that you
57:38don't need a manufacturing background or
57:39a you know Aerospace background or a
57:41space background to kind of get in the
57:43mix and start adding a lot of value very
57:44quickly I love that you mentioned
57:46Rippling because I think there are so
57:47many examples of successful companies
57:49that really just did Venture into a
57:51space that was surprisingly complex and
57:54just document it and simplify it I mean
57:56I'm a Canadian who who happens to work
57:58in Canada and using a product like
57:59Rippling is so nice or you know there's
58:02there's other products out there that do
58:03the same thing like workday but the idea
58:05is that I just have to click a bunch of
58:07buttons and say are you an immigrant
58:08alien are you not or you know what state
58:10are you in et cetera and it just it just
58:12outlines the process for you and I think
58:14that's a nice parallel because many
58:15people have probably used tools like
58:17that before and imagining a parallel
58:19within Advanced manufacturing of of
58:21course the stuff is incredibly complex
58:23but if you can simplify it for the End
58:25customer to just understand okay I'm
58:27gonna get exactly on these dates and
58:29then internally what are the key steps
58:31along that way for us to map out and
58:34insert automation where possible that's
58:36a great example is like you know a HR
58:39rep to do that without Rippling is 20 40
58:42hours and you still need to HR rep to do
58:44that job but it takes them 30 minutes
58:46and you know they're not filling out
58:48forms for like you know 40 hours a week
58:50and you know drinking a bottle of wine
58:52at night because they're sick of filling
58:54out for 40 hours of forms a week and
58:56it's the same it's like we're not we're
58:58not replacing the human and machining
58:59we're just like hey click three buttons
59:02not click 20 done buttons where you do
59:04it a bajillion times a week and it's you
59:06know it's painful you know and also
59:08click buttons in a nice workflow don't
59:11have to like go read the paper manual on
59:13like what immigration policy is for
59:15Canadian you know b z Visa holders or
59:19whatever because oh yeah it's all like
59:21workflow logic it's all a process and
59:22yeah it's it's very gnarly to wrap your
59:25hands around that entire problem
59:26simultaneously but yeah that's the game
59:28we're playing it's good yeah and using
59:31that example too it's like it's to your
59:33point you're not the experts from the
59:35space right so if I do have a question
59:37of like what the hell does a resident
59:39alien mean I go to my lawyer and ask
59:42them okay like what how should I respond
59:44to this but I only involve them when
59:46necessary and it's the same thing with
59:47Machining right you're only bringing in
59:49the expert machinist when absolutely
59:51necessary and then simplifying the rest
59:54and yes and then then the expert
59:57machinists can go learn software
59:58engineering or they can go learn you
01:00:00know harder and harder levels of
01:00:02Machining or they can just spend 100 of
01:00:04their time on like really gnarly
01:00:06problems that you need an expert for not
01:00:08like how to program a threaded hole
01:00:11which they've done for the last 10 years
01:00:12successfully you know four times a week
01:00:15and like you don't ever have to do that
01:00:17again you know and cool go go solve this
01:00:20other problem and figure out how to
01:00:21automate that you know all right so
01:00:23there are a bunch of different problems
01:00:25that you can attack within Advanced
01:00:27manufacturing we talked about medical
01:00:29semiconductors defense Etc
01:00:31um sounds like Hadrian is focused at
01:00:34least at the moment on space and uh as I
01:00:38mentioned before there are many people
01:00:39out there there are many people who
01:00:41disagree with this but there are many
01:00:42people that think that space or pursuing
01:00:45it is a frivolous industry I'll just
01:00:47read you one tweet for fun uh from
01:00:49someone that I saw recently that said no
01:00:51offense but I a hundred percent think
01:00:53space colonization is a childish desire
01:00:55so feel free to respond to that
01:00:58particular tweet but really what I want
01:00:59to get at is within the sphere of things
01:01:02that you could pursue within Hadrian why
01:01:04specifically space to start the really
01:01:06short version is like stripe doesn't get
01:01:08to sell to a t until we sold to a bunch
01:01:11of white combinated startups and there's
01:01:13just a bunch of huge amounts of capital
01:01:15flowing into commercial space which
01:01:17means there's a bunch of Net News spend
01:01:18and they're being run by 30 year olds
01:01:20not 50 year olds which
01:01:22you know you want to sell the startups
01:01:23at first and you want to hit that early
01:01:24adopt Spectrum so commercial space has
01:01:28all of the complexity of every other
01:01:29industry that we would want to serve in
01:01:31the future so the automation we're
01:01:32building for commercial space is almost
01:01:33completely transferable but there's a
01:01:35real need because these companies are
01:01:36trying to go super fast so they will pay
01:01:38for Speed you know if they are sick of
01:01:40calling Bob's machine shop but they're
01:01:41young enough from you know all these
01:01:43rocket and satellite companies that
01:01:44they're willing to take a shot on
01:01:46something new and really work with us to
01:01:48develop the system versus so it's it's
01:01:49just you classically adopt a problem
01:01:51then I think holistically is like
01:01:54why go to space uh at all like why put
01:01:57Humanities resources out there and I
01:01:59think you know we could go through this
01:02:01argument of like you know space is a
01:02:03warfighting domain like you need
01:02:05observability of the planet to stop
01:02:06nuclear launches so you need satellites
01:02:08you know like GPS is a great example we
01:02:10can go through all like the time worn
01:02:13arguments that like most of the medical
01:02:14advances on the planet have been
01:02:16Downstream of NASA on the ISS and how
01:02:18that flows through to society and all
01:02:19that stuff but all of that is is an
01:02:22abstraction of like why you know why
01:02:25Columbus like why go jump on a shitty
01:02:28raft and go look at a new island in
01:02:30Polynesia as like a tribal leader like
01:02:32you know in some in some ways it's
01:02:34Manifest Destiny like humans are built
01:02:36to expand and explore and that is just
01:02:38like a core Drive of the species and
01:02:40with that sort of an argument it just
01:02:42comes down to like growth versus
01:02:44degrowth like that is the Eternal
01:02:47cultural fight and you can call it
01:02:49capitalism or communism or you can call
01:02:51it like the state versus the people or
01:02:53you can call it the same centralization
01:02:54versus centralization but what it comes
01:02:57are we going to use the limited
01:02:59resources on the planet to go get new
01:03:01resources so we can continue this
01:03:03magical species-wide journey journey of
01:03:05like settling the solar system and
01:03:07finding out what's out there and
01:03:08improving our own lives and like going
01:03:11and getting at it or are we going to
01:03:12accept the status quo and sit there and
01:03:14like you know continue to like shoot in
01:03:16a hole instead of inventing the toilet
01:03:18or whatever like and and all these
01:03:20people out there who are like
01:03:22by stretching towards the future we need
01:03:24to concentrate on the problems of today
01:03:25and what people don't realize is that
01:03:27historically throughout Humanity you
01:03:28like you solve poverty by building Farms
01:03:31not by like trying to optimize this
01:03:33shitty like hodgepodge hunter-gatherer
01:03:36like system that we've got and yes that
01:03:40rewards people you know non-linearly the
01:03:43people who are reaching towards that
01:03:44future and like you leave some people
01:03:46behind but that is what takes the band
01:03:48from here to here and everyone's quality
01:03:51of life goes up and at some point the
01:03:53Earth's resources are going to die out
01:03:54and we have kind of one shot in the next
01:03:56couple of decades to like expand so that
01:04:00we can get new resources and make
01:04:01ourselves more efficient and start
01:04:02solving all these problems and I think
01:04:04but these are all like
01:04:07platitudes and economic arguments over
01:04:09the internal cultural problem of
01:04:11humanity which is like
01:04:12do you want to go and do cool and
01:04:14like grow as fast as possible and see
01:04:16what's out there or do you want to sit
01:04:18there chilling your thumbs because
01:04:19you're scared and that is the Eternal
01:04:20like growth versus degrowth fight and
01:04:23everything that we see in the media
01:04:24whether it's Legacy Media or politics or
01:04:29communism versus capitalism or anything
01:04:31is or you know coronary capitalism
01:04:34versus true kind of jungle capitalism
01:04:37you know it's all it's all a poor
01:04:41abstraction over growth versus D growth
01:04:43and ultimately like you've got a big
01:04:44side and I think growth and if we're
01:04:47picking growth then yeah let's go invent
01:04:50new technologies and settle the stars
01:04:52and find out what's out there and mine
01:04:54Asteroids for resources instead of
01:04:56ripping up forests in the Amazon you
01:04:59know but like you either have to like
01:05:01basically it comes down to like
01:05:03expansional population control you know
01:05:04like at a certain point it all comes
01:05:06down to like we're either going to cut
01:05:08down trees or gonna mine asteroids okay
01:05:10don't want to cut down trees that make
01:05:12sense so let's go you know go do
01:05:14something cooler and more sustainable a
01:05:15way to do that but the third option of
01:05:17like restricting resources and you know
01:05:20this is like a stupid argument over
01:05:23you know like hey let's not incur some
01:05:26risk of getting totally clean energy
01:05:29that like net net is way way less uh
01:05:33morally and economically impactful than
01:05:35solar panels where 90 of the solar
01:05:37panels in the country are being made in
01:05:39China by basically slave labor where
01:05:41millions of minority and immigrant women
01:05:43are being chemically castrated every
01:05:45year and forced into servitude but so
01:05:48ultimately it's like growth versus
01:05:49degrowth and I think like the case for
01:05:51space is is the Last Frontier that we
01:05:53have and you can think about the moon as
01:05:55the eighth continent and as a species
01:05:57we're either gonna go out and get it and
01:05:59continue to grow and improve things or
01:06:01we're going to stagnate and if anyone's
01:06:03choosing to stagnate you're on the wrong
01:06:04side of history and like you're gonna
01:06:06get blown passed by everyone else and
01:06:09I just wish people would frame the
01:06:10problem correctly it's you know it's
01:06:12it's growth versus degrowth there is no
01:06:13like economic argument like you're the
01:06:16four Humanity isn't expansive moral
01:06:19species or you're against it and you
01:06:21know you want to like paralysis in this
01:06:23bubble where we're just going to
01:06:24compound the problems I think it's I
01:06:26think it's ridiculous
01:06:27yeah I mean one other way you could put
01:06:28it of growth versus degrowth is also
01:06:31kind of like a zero sum versus positive
01:06:32sum mindset right or of like we can
01:06:35pursue space the technologies will
01:06:37hopefully return back to things on Earth
01:06:40but also we can pursue space and pursue
01:06:42improving climate change and pursue Ai
01:06:45and pursue insert other exciting things
01:06:46here right it's it's not one necessarily
01:06:49versus the other although I do think
01:06:51it's really important to point out what
01:06:52we've talked about already several times
01:06:54is that you know there are several
01:06:55advancements uh from space I was looking
01:06:58this up because we're doing an episode
01:06:59with Privateer but like uh whether it's
01:07:01like Lasik to like limb Replacements to
01:07:04tires on your car like all of that has
01:07:06been impacted by you know unsurprisingly
01:07:09the very tough engineering challenge
01:07:11which is to to build these things in
01:07:12space return to Earth because it's much
01:07:14easier to actually apply them here
01:07:16um so you know without going down too
01:07:18far that rabbit hole I do think that one
01:07:20thing that maybe is missing I might be
01:07:22wrong but is this idea of like a killer
01:07:23app right something that people can
01:07:25understand within the context of face
01:07:27and I think some people might argue that
01:07:29like satellites are already like the
01:07:31killer application of space that we use
01:07:35um but do you have any thoughts there in
01:07:37terms of whether we already have this
01:07:40quote unquote killer app within space
01:07:42that people can understand and almost
01:07:45like helps them recognize the value I
01:07:48think that's a really really hard
01:07:49problem because a lot of the benefits of
01:07:52space are not the end product it's like
01:07:55the infrastructure it's like GPS you
01:07:57know sort of like space invented Google
01:07:59Maps or Apple Maps it's like it's
01:08:02recognizable by like a consumer and they
01:08:04kind of they kind of get it uh very
01:08:07viscerally I think
01:08:09I think there are many no I don't think
01:08:11there's a killer app and I don't think
01:08:12there will be because it's it's like um
01:08:14you know does your average consumer you
01:08:16know know about AWS not really like
01:08:20outside of our technology domain but
01:08:22like can any of the stuff that they love
01:08:24exist without it like probably not I
01:08:26think there will be something incredible
01:08:28in terms of not quote-unquote first of
01:08:31all countries having access to the
01:08:32internet the first time through
01:08:34um things like starlink which will be
01:08:36really incredible for those parts of the
01:08:39earth which will become like a killer
01:08:42um because it's consumer focused it's
01:08:43clearly to space like it's cool it has
01:08:46real benefits in terms of education and
01:08:48like you know teaching kids things
01:08:50um versus having like crappy internet in
01:08:52the Philippines or something like that
01:08:53for the American population I think
01:08:55we're already buried behind so many
01:08:57layers of abstraction that's like really
01:08:58really really hard I I think that
01:09:02potentially it's something in Fama where
01:09:04so much of the like cancer or genetic
01:09:08research is can only be performed or can
01:09:10be performed like far far better in
01:09:13terms of materials or chemical research
01:09:15in space and I think there if there's a
01:09:17major Pharma breakthrough where it's
01:09:18like oh we cured the lupus or like you
01:09:21know like leukemia doesn't exist anymore
01:09:23and it's because of the research that
01:09:24happened on the ISS and it's very
01:09:26publicly done I think that could be a
01:09:27really killer like you know app but I
01:09:30think the rest of it's all
01:09:30infrastructure and yeah so so Pharma
01:09:33would be a really amazing one and I can
01:09:34see like a core kind of consumer link to
01:09:36where they really like this really feel
01:09:37the impact that reminds me of I think my
01:09:41final question which is just the idea of
01:09:43painting this future where Hadrian is
01:09:46successful or rather painting a future
01:09:48where there's let's say 10 or 30
01:09:50hadrians that are successful like what
01:09:52does that world look like does that
01:09:54enable us to go and you know cure cancer
01:09:56on a satellite we're on the ISS or what
01:10:00are the types of things that we might
01:10:02might get and I say might because of
01:10:04course of course there's no certainty
01:10:06with the success of Hadrian or many of
01:10:08them yeah so the analogy I use is
01:10:11for software engineering we have so many
01:10:14incredible software engineers and
01:10:16software products that and that is
01:10:19Downstream of companies like stripe or
01:10:21twilio or Amazon because they lowered
01:10:24the barrier to entry for creating new
01:10:26companies and running more experiments
01:10:28on what's a good thing that the world
01:10:30needs from like a million dollars to
01:10:32like a hundred dollars because that
01:10:33infrastructure exists you get this
01:10:34Cambrian explosion of Randomness and
01:10:37firstly the people that exist in the
01:10:40ecosystem can get a hundred more tries
01:10:42at building something incredible and
01:10:44then new people come into the ecosystem
01:10:46because the cost the cost of Entry is so
01:10:48low the cost of experimentation is so
01:10:50low that you you get more flood of
01:10:52talent and Randomness and you know so
01:10:55who knows what comes out of it but it's
01:10:57obviously true that like if you have
01:10:58this cheap infrastructure layer that
01:11:00enables rapid iteration and lower lower
01:11:03barrier cost to do an experimental to
01:11:04launch a product you get this Cambrian
01:11:06explosion of like Madness and then
01:11:08amazing things come out of it and who
01:11:10knows what they are but like you know
01:11:12who could have predicted that Downstream
01:11:13of like Microsoft Azure is like Dolly
01:11:16too I don't know but like there's a
01:11:19clear without without that compute
01:11:21letter existing none of that would exist
01:11:23you know so who who knows um
01:11:25self-driving cars are all Downstream of
01:11:26cloud computing a roll Downstream of
01:11:28like elastic you know infrastructure
01:11:31um so what I hope happens with Hadrian
01:11:33is apart from speeding up the current
01:11:37companies you know making rocket
01:11:39satellites Jets and drones an order of
01:11:41magnitude so they can move faster on the
01:11:44we automate this so much that it's
01:11:46basically like flicking the switch on
01:11:47AWS and spinning up a new you know like
01:11:49East Coast instance and starting to Tool
01:11:51around with something and by lowering
01:11:53the barrier to entry of complex
01:11:55and making it cheaper and making it
01:11:57accessible through an API we should see
01:11:59two things which is the smart people in
01:12:01the space get 100 times more experiments
01:12:03and new entrance to the space don't have
01:12:06to go and work at SpaceX for 10 years to
01:12:08figure out what the hell is going on and
01:12:09then go start something they can kind of
01:12:10drop into it straight out of college and
01:12:12have this manufacturing platform that
01:12:14enables them to like rapidly iterate on
01:12:16whatever they want and all of a sudden
01:12:17we see this like ridiculous explosion of
01:12:19like who knows what hopefully so much so
01:12:21the FAA is just chasing their tail
01:12:23trying to like stop kids launching Like
01:12:25Satellites off the roof of their houses
01:12:26you know and that's that's like the
01:12:29generative property that would be a real
01:12:31success case for us is we've built this
01:12:33kind of Archimedes lever of a company
01:12:34that by building it we've like generated
01:12:36all these huge second and third order
01:12:38impacts in the world and yeah yeah I
01:12:41mean like apart from helping the defense
01:12:43Prime scale and like you know butting
01:12:45heads of the CCP it's it's going to be
01:12:47amazing in a couple of years to see you
01:12:49know a bunch of like engineering grads
01:12:51uh you know touring around in their
01:12:53garage and like seeing seeing Google
01:12:55style startups happen without 40 million
01:12:58dollars in funding and just to get off
01:13:00the ground because they Tap a button
01:13:02Parts show up the next day through an
01:13:03API and then they're like experimenting
01:13:05and then who knows what happens after
01:13:06that but that would be the huge success
01:13:08case for us is that we are the enabler
01:13:10of that like Cambrian explosion of
01:13:12talent and Randomness that produces all
01:13:14these wild and crazy experiments in the
01:13:16physical world and lowers that barrier
01:13:18to entry so that we're getting ourselves
01:13:20closer and closer to the Jetsons flying
01:13:22car future versus you know getting stuck
01:13:24getting stuck where we are today I love
01:13:26that because I think maybe it's hard for
01:13:28people to imagine that you know Joe
01:13:30Smith in his garage is going to go
01:13:32create a a space rocket on his own but
01:13:36if we actually look back a couple
01:13:38decades ago the idea of someone
01:13:40publishing online which now we all do as
01:13:43long as you have an internet connection
01:13:44was not democratized right like I think
01:13:47the first blog was in the 90s and you
01:13:49had to spin up your own server and you
01:13:50had to understand how to do web
01:13:51development and today it's like you know
01:13:53you pull up your phone you have your
01:13:54your Twitter app or uh your own sub
01:13:56stack or whatever it might be and we can
01:13:58all participate and it does create this
01:14:00like infinite ecosystem on both supply
01:14:04um and and it'll be fascinating to see
01:14:05if we can achieve that on the hardware
01:14:07side and specifically within space so
01:14:10that leads me to my final question which
01:14:12is just I think this work is really
01:14:15inspiring it is it inspires me to
01:14:16imagine that future where we have
01:14:18democratized Hardware where people are
01:14:20excited uh to participate even if they
01:14:22don't have a doctorate in you know
01:14:24aerospace engineering I want to know
01:14:26from you who is someone that you're
01:14:29inspired by and what are they working on
01:14:31inspired by or like have went from could
01:14:35be either I'll actually share where this
01:14:37question came from and there was an
01:14:39interview that Alex Honnold did on Tim
01:14:41Ferriss uh years ago and a lot of people
01:14:43see Alex Honnold as this like superhuman
01:14:46he's you know defied the laws of gravity
01:14:48or at least fear and and he's he's free
01:14:51soloing up these mountains and so it's
01:14:52kind of a interesting to imagine that
01:14:55there may maybe someone that Alex looks
01:14:57up to in a similar domain of like oh my
01:14:59gosh I can't believe he does this and
01:15:01his answer was this guy Mark Andre
01:15:03Leclerc he if you've heard of the
01:15:05alpinus It's a Wonderful movie I won't
01:15:07spoil the ending but uh that was kind of
01:15:10like a fascinating thing to understand
01:15:12that this person who I saw and many
01:15:14other people saw a superhuman saw
01:15:16someone else in a similar light and so
01:15:18I'm curious to know if there's someone
01:15:19that you are like wow I can't believe
01:15:21this person is building something no
01:15:23one's ever heard of them because in that
01:15:24case no one had heard of this guy Mark
01:15:26Andre the clerk at the time so does that
01:15:28help uh kind of paint a picture of what
01:15:31we're looking for yeah yeah yeah what
01:15:33really inspires me is musicians that
01:15:36tool Away by themselves in in our
01:15:39bedrooms or caves for like five years
01:15:41and then produce these like walks of art
01:15:45uh that are orders of main issues better
01:15:47than anything that like you know
01:15:48publishing Studios get out and whether
01:15:50that was like Boston in the 70s where
01:15:51literally everyone thought they were in
01:15:53a rear rock band it was like one guy
01:15:54that known like wrote the music wrote
01:15:57the albums played all the instruments
01:15:59but then half of the recording equipment
01:16:00he custom built himself purely purely
01:16:03just to like get his work of art out
01:16:05there stuff like that is inspiring to me
01:16:09not because it's like a single human
01:16:10like you know I am nothing without the
01:16:14um it's because it's a reminder that you
01:16:18know these mythical Heroes exist and
01:16:20like you know people from non-college
01:16:23educated backgrounds or like completely
01:16:24outside the system is still there are
01:16:27still there tiling away in like you know
01:16:28Humanity has still got it you know like
01:16:30it's it's not it's not a like Cattle
01:16:33Mill of people coming out of education
01:16:34and going and like clicking buttons on
01:16:36computers at Google or open sacks or
01:16:38whatever like we've still got this like
01:16:40incredible ability to go off and do
01:16:42random things I mean like other examples
01:16:44is like I'm obsessed with uh these
01:16:47random like YouTube building videos
01:16:48where some like nutcase like convinces
01:16:51his wife or whatever that they're gonna
01:16:52like build a cabin out in the woods or
01:16:54whatever and he has no concern she
01:16:55doesn't no construction experience and
01:16:57he like does it and it's awesome more
01:16:59like you know whatever those those
01:17:01things are what inspires me not because
01:17:04of the like singular genius because of
01:17:08doggedness of getting the job done and
01:17:10also like the sheer idiocy of being like
01:17:13yeah I've never done this before I don't
01:17:15even know what the music industry is but
01:17:16I'm just gonna like do this album and
01:17:18toil away at it for like eight years and
01:17:20hold myself to an incredibly high
01:17:21standard and like you know create
01:17:23something from scratch and I think why
01:17:26that's important to me is
01:17:28all of what we're doing is incredibly
01:17:31but it's not that hard and the way we
01:17:34build credentialism into our society is
01:17:36like really bad because it's like most
01:17:38the barrier to entry to doing something
01:17:40amazing is like psychological and I try
01:17:43and tell people like constantly as much
01:17:45as I can like no I'm a trust me
01:17:47like this is hard but mostly most of the
01:17:50trick is being able to take the
01:17:52emotional pain of just like hitting the
01:17:54wall with a sledgehammer until it breaks
01:17:56down you know and that's not what we
01:17:58teach people we teach people like you
01:17:59have to have this degree or you have to
01:18:02have this like you have to be born a
01:18:04certain way or whatever and like 99 of
01:18:06the time except for like Advanced maths
01:18:08like it's just not true you just have to
01:18:10be willing to like you know get after it
01:18:12and be truthful to yourself and like
01:18:14take good feedback and then like run at
01:18:15it so yeah examples like that are are
01:18:18really inspiring and those are the
01:18:20people that I look up to versus like hey
01:18:22you're this amazing entrepreneur that's
01:18:24had this massive success for one reason
01:18:26or another yeah it's like perseverance
01:18:27instead of getting it right the first
01:18:28time which is generally what we're
01:18:30taught like getting a on the 10 test
01:18:31instead of like take the test 10 times
01:18:33but Ace it by the end and then really
01:18:35understand the material and it also
01:18:36reminds me of that famous Steve Jobs
01:18:38quote it's my favorite one and I'm
01:18:40totally gonna butcher it but it's
01:18:41something along the lines of everything
01:18:42that is built around us has been built
01:18:45by people no smarter than you and so I
01:18:47think that's a wonderful place to end
01:18:49off on Chris is there somewhere that
01:18:51you'd like to direct people how do they
01:18:52find out more about Hadrian what you're
01:18:53working on or anything that we've talked
01:18:55about today yeah you can follow me on
01:18:58Twitter at 2112 power and if you want to
01:19:01come work for us and manufacture the
01:19:03future you can email us at jobs at
01:19:05hadrian.co awesome well thanks for doing
01:19:08this I appreciate it it's great
01:19:12thanks for listening to the a16z podcast
01:19:14if you like this episode don't forget to
01:19:16subscribe here on YouTube to get our
01:19:17exclusive video content
01:19:19we'll see you next time
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