00:00math education has been under attack for
00:01a long time why do you feel like this is
00:03so important for us to turn around the
00:06top indicators of success in
00:07postsecondary stem are number one
00:09spatial reasoning the second indicator
00:11is your ability to abstract right is
00:13this widely understood the short answer
00:15is yes felt very binary right headset or
00:18no headset for the first time BR is
00:20comfortable it's safe majority of our
00:23students are not doing well that it's
00:24not access to knowledge that kids are
00:26missing it's access to experiences
00:28confidence mindset and belief in
00:32themselves all right so I was at a
00:35conference early this year and I met
00:37this incredible founder her name is Anar
00:39Rupa and she told me this really
00:42shocking statistic so here it goes 70%
00:46of us 8th graders are not proficient in
00:48foundational math let me just say that
00:50one more time 70% of us 8th graders are
00:54not proficient in foundational math
00:5870% so naturally when she told me this I
01:01had to bring her into chat about this
01:03problem and why it's so important to
01:04turn around because her company prisms
01:07VR are actually trying to fix this
01:09problem using mixed reality and that was
01:11after she had her own aha moment after
01:14realizing that one of the best
01:16indicators of math proficiency is
01:18spatial reasoning so why not use spatial
01:21software and as Anar Rupa says herself
01:24Algebra 1 is a civil rights issue of our
01:26time at the middle school level math
01:28scores drop 3 to four times times um how
01:31much literacy score drops so you you
01:33don't hear Americans walking around
01:34saying I can't read but you have a mass
01:37epidemic of of people walking around
01:38saying like I don't know how to
01:39calculate the tip so can this additional
01:42Dimension finally level the playing
01:43field let's find out as a reminder the
01:47content here is for informational
01:48purposes only should not be taken as
01:50legal business tax or investment advice
01:53or be used to evaluate any investment or
01:55security and is not directed at any
01:57investors or potential investors in any
01:59a6c fund please note that a16z and its
02:02Affiliates may also maintain investments
02:04in the companies discussed in this
02:06podcast for more details including a
02:08link to our investments please see
02:21disclosures let's kick things off with
02:23the beginning prisms VR you are a solo
02:25founder you're doing this alone how did
02:27this all begin thanks so much for having
02:29me so prisms was very much born out of
02:32my lived experiences as a teacher and a
02:34district leader um after a decade of
02:37teaching and leading math instruction
02:38across Boston and New York I became
02:40convicted that we don't have the tools
02:42to close the learning gaps at scale you
02:43may know this but today about 70% of us
02:46eighth graders are not proficient in
02:47foundational math I did not know that
02:49that's a stat it's a stat and though
02:52it's um it dropped 8 percentage points
02:54pre pandemic you're looking at 60% of us
02:56eighth graders were not proficient and
02:58despite billions of dollars going into
03:00this problem the numbers were static and
03:03so as I began to kind of look more
03:05deeply into why this was happening uh I
03:07discovered that the top indicators of
03:09success in postsecondary stem are number
03:12one your ability to rotate 3D objects in
03:14your mind and maintain perspective it's
03:16what what you roughly call spatial
03:17reasoning the second indicator of
03:19success is your ability to abstract um
03:22and all that means is being able to go
03:23from like physical human experiences and
03:26describe language notation and build
03:28mathematical models not from text on a
03:30page not from word problems but from
03:33your your life experiences so I kind of
03:35looked at those two things going huh uh
03:37we learn spatially and we learn by
03:39abstracting up from our day-to-day lives
03:42we have not found a way to scale either
03:44of these methodologies so prisms was was
03:46born to scale these two key competencies
03:50and hopefully fundamentally and
03:51radically and quickly close the
03:53achievement Gap in math and science
03:55right is this widely understood because
03:57I mean you said this was discovered in
03:5919 19 7 why haven't we seen this
04:01translate into the classroom before well
04:03there there are a couple things there
04:04it's been widely understood in the
04:06research community and I think the last
04:08few decades in education reform has seen
04:10a a huge lack of translation of what the
04:12research has shown to actual tools and
04:15solutions that's been primarily dictated
04:17by the tech so so far Computing devices
04:21have mainly been on 2D screens and we
04:23were digitizing learning mechanisms that
04:26were possible using the computational
04:27devices we had and now with the Advent
04:30of spatial computers um and mobile VR
04:32and XR Technologies we now finally have
04:35the natural interfaces where we can
04:38scale learning with your body learning
04:41using six degrees of freedom using m a
04:44multitude of tactile tools before
04:46jumping to a an equation which is very
04:49abstract if we are seeing math scores
04:51stagnant or declining yeah let me just
04:54hear this from you why do you feel like
04:56this is so important for us to turn
04:58around I think that math education has
05:00been Attack under attack for a long time
05:02of why do kids need to learn algebra why
05:04do kids need to know percents and ratios
05:05and just let's let let's set the record
05:07straight bob Moses had shared this in
05:09during the Civil Rights Movement Algebra
05:111 is a civil rights issue of our time
05:13I'm a mathad person so from from my
05:15perspective it's essal it's essential
05:18not only is it tied to um salaries over
05:21time and and and earnings over time it's
05:24of course tied to just the types of jobs
05:26that you have access to you don't do
05:27well in Algebra 1 you are not taking
05:29chemistry physics biology if you are not
05:31succeeding in chemistry physics biology
05:33you are not going on to the Applied
05:34Mathematics or the medical Sciences so
05:36you're just kind of cut off from a very
05:38large swath of jobs in our economy yeah
05:39and pretty early and very early on yeah
05:41because students take um algebra one at
05:43the eighth grade level so then you get
05:45tracked at the high school level um and
05:47you know grade 7 to 12 is when you are
05:49training for whatever you're going to
05:51kind of contribute to um and apply for
05:53in your senior year of high school so
05:54let's jump back to the why now it does
05:56feel like we're at an inflection point
05:58Apple released their Vision Pro or at
06:00least you know showed the world what was
06:02coming um and it does feel like maybe
06:05maybe we're at an inflection point with
06:06VR but tell me more about how maybe
06:09we're at the right time where this
06:11technology can really change things so
06:13with the uh release of mobile VR which
06:16is this idea that you aren't you don't
06:18need to be connected with an umbilical
06:20cord to a bulky piece of Hardware in its
06:22previous generation it was really hard
06:23like every kid had to have this like big
06:26laptop connected to their headset they
06:27couldn't move around computational AB
06:29ilities were were were pretty limited
06:31movement tracking hand tracking all of
06:33that just made it very clunky and
06:34frankly uncomfortable so that was never
06:36going to scale um and so with just all
06:39the work that's been done for the first
06:41time VR is comfortable it's safe there's
06:43a psychological safety that's now come
06:46with all of the work that's been done
06:47around UI um and accessibility and then
06:51I would say with with respect to Apple's
06:53um announcement what they've now done is
06:56taken a lot of the standard text
06:58interfaces and you I that we are so
07:00comfortable with using our iPhones using
07:01our laptops and made it spatialized um
07:04it's mixed reality where we are able to
07:06kind of be in our physical space and use
07:09a multitude of of interfaces in a
07:10spatialized environment which I think is
07:12is just critical to getting a lot of
07:15people very quickly using the medium so
07:18I'm now able to kind of like control my
07:20level of immersion so if I want to be in
07:22VR fully immersed focused shut the world
07:25out and be in a new space I can do that
07:27and I can turn my dial and then move to
07:29augmented come back to my space move to
07:31Mr um where I can kind of have my
07:33FaceTime up and and and be in my living
07:35room so I think that the Power of Now is
07:40the the the seamlessness through which
07:42we can move through the different
07:44modalities whereas before uh VR was more
07:47Niche because it was it was VR or Bust
07:50it felt very binary right headset or no
07:52headset and then even when we talk about
07:54spatial Computing it was this Paradigm
07:56of like is it going to be ar or is it
07:58going to be VR are and it feels like
08:01what you're pointing towards is it's
08:02it's not binary there's a spectrum and
08:04you know for different applications
08:05you're going to use one or the other
08:06prisms is is in VR so you're you're
08:09fully immersed if I understand that
08:10correctly and you have developed this
08:12application and it's in schools already
08:14right so kids are using this what are
08:16you seeing in terms of whether it is
08:19actually changing that that data point
08:22that we were seeing before about math
08:23comprehension math reasoning is this
08:26spatial Paradigm that we are now in
08:31equation the short answer is yes we
08:33launched a schools in in uh fall 2021 in
08:37that time with a very small team we're
08:38already across about 160 school systems
08:41across over over 30 States and so when I
08:44think about the greatest value that our
08:46students have shared with us is
08:48relevancy when you get to immerse
08:50yourself like leave the four walls and
08:52go to the Himalayas in India to build
08:55new elementary schools that create
08:56create shaded regions as an architect
08:58they're able to to fully build an an
09:00identity which you cannot just by kind
09:03of looking at things in a highly
09:04abstract way cuz you aren't doing it
09:06it's not with your body so that's like
09:07the first thing that uh people have
09:09shared with me around just the value of
09:11pure VR the second kind of big value
09:13that that our communities are sharing
09:15with us is the ability to physically
09:17derive these math equations that meant
09:19nothing Y is equal to MX plus b where
09:21did it come from kids don't kids have no
09:22idea where it came from so what this is
09:25kind of culminated to is uh westad is
09:26our research partner we've conducted two
09:29big studies with them one was a
09:31feasibility out scale study that showed
09:33um a couple things one double- digit
09:35growth outcomes on proficient algebra
09:37one proficiencies which we just talked
09:38about is an important uh problem to to
09:41to tackle headon but what was even more
09:43compelling in that study Stephanie was
09:45teachers at skill were saying this um
09:48topic takes me four weeks to teach my
09:50kids got it in one wow so we drilled in
09:52on that we're like well why and they and
09:54they kept saying well we just saw it
09:56because we saw it we couldn't unsee it
09:58that was something K set very often um
10:00so that drove into our randomized
10:02control trial where we had we set up a
10:04control group and treatment group that
10:06was across about 30 sides it was a very
10:07large it was a much larger study um and
10:09that showed 11% growth between control
10:12and treatment on algebra proficiencies
10:14on end of end of unit assessments and
10:17whether we like it or not uh future
10:20opportunity is still governed by
10:23standardized assessments so we can't
10:24take that moral High Ground of you know
10:27um Progressive methods like problem
10:28based learning yes we do all that but we
10:31also have to deliver outcomes for kids
10:33yes which is why that's that's the line
10:35that our solution has tread around we
10:37are here to not only expose students to
10:40real world issues in the world build
10:42identities as Architects and designers
10:44and Builders and microbiologists so they
10:46can make that choice to contribute to
10:48those fields in University um but also
10:50we we're going to get you past those
10:51tests in a far more efficient and
10:53enduring maners so you don't end up
10:55hating it because God knows um you know
10:58the just test preparation it's it turns
11:00off so many children from from math and
11:02science my gosh especially math oh my
11:04gosh I I loved math but I just remember
11:07being in high school and so many kids
11:09had just yeah it was like a binary
11:11decision like oh I'm not succeeding in
11:13math so like as we talked about that
11:15world was just completely shut off from
11:17possibility and so just to to ground
11:20things you said you're seeing an
11:2211% Improvement so that's after how much
11:25time and then also just remind me how
11:27much were we seeing those for sliding up
11:30until now yeah so in at the middle
11:34school level math scores drop 3 to four
11:37times um how much literacy score drops
11:39so you you don't hear Americans walking
11:41around saying I can't read but you have
11:44a mass epidemic of of people walking
11:45around saying like I don't know how to
11:47calculate the tip that's a percent right
11:49and that's a that's a great six standard
11:51and so um I say that because yes it's
11:54been under like real duress for quite
11:56some time uh and so a 12 11% increase
11:59for a a first generation deeper
12:01technology product is pretty
12:03unprecedented which is why our research
12:04partner was so excited we're now putting
12:07in a larger F year um study you asked
12:10about the time of of the study this was
12:12over a it was studied from September
12:15through um March teachers implemented
12:18multiple units linear functions systems
12:20and and exponential functions so now
12:22what we want to do is though this was
12:23technically a year-long study we want to
12:25actually get more methodical about it
12:26and do a full year round study where
12:28teachers do every single module and we
12:30do the end ofe uh proficiency test
12:32whereas in this one we were doing
12:34unitwise proficiency tests where we
12:35would test exponential functions linear
12:37functions which was over a course of of
12:39a seven-week unit of study I agree with
12:41you I'd love to see the data from a year
12:43but one of the reasons I was asking that
12:44is because it's pretty incredible that
12:47you're seeing that level of gain in that
12:49short period of time so it sounds like
12:52you're focused on math currently um but
12:55I'd love to get an understanding of
12:57whether you do think this can exate fi
13:00or if you do think that
13:02the VR isely sued to adap to ma maybe
13:07some forms of science so all of biology
13:09chemistry uh physics it's the same idea
13:11Stephanie you experience something in
13:13the world and then through a problem
13:15that you believe is important to solve
13:17where if we solve it the value will acur
13:19to the public and communities and human
13:21beings stand to benefit um you learn
13:24math and science so you experienc
13:26something and then you mathematize and
13:27model it so it's the same pedagogy
13:29uh we've gotten a lot of requests from
13:31our schools for the humanity so we are
13:33starting production uh for English and
13:35and at the the social sciences so for
13:37example um so much of creative writing
13:40and and uh uh and essays like what where
13:42we've been doing a lot of prototyping
13:44around putting kids on a colony in Mars
13:45they've never been they don't know what
13:46that feels like they don't know what
13:47that looks like and they come out and
13:49they write because now your your
13:51imagination has opened up um for the
13:53social sciences it feels a bit more
13:55obvious like really taking folks to the
13:57seat of these key moments and history
13:59and learning about the perspectives and
14:00the series of events that happened and
14:02again those those visceral visual
14:04remembrances are so powerful versus like
14:07dates and terms that you very very
14:09quickly forget which is why across the
14:11subject matter not just in math there's
14:12a lot of reteaching that happens so it's
14:14happening is we have a very inefficient
14:16educational system because kids are
14:18constantly reviewing and relearning what
14:21they learned two weeks ago yeah and that
14:23is what prisms is trying to diminish I
14:25always joke Algebra 1 is going to go
14:27from a year-long course to a two-month
14:29course because it because it's it's just
14:31stuck with so much inefficiencies right
14:33now of more worksheets and more drill
14:35and kill the drill and kill you want
14:36you're not going need to do as much if
14:37you get what a linear function is if you
14:39actually understand it oh my gosh this
14:41conversation is just reminding me of my
14:43education I think back to literally the
14:46calculus test that I would have and you
14:48know the things that you're explaining
14:49that I'm imagining now in VR like you
14:50know you're you're swinging down a
14:52zipline and like it you're going at this
14:54speed and like that was described on a
14:57piece of paper you know in a paragraph
14:59and then I had to draw out what was
15:01happening in this 2D plane with my
15:03pencil and paper and so I guess what I'm
15:05getting at is that I think and let me
15:08know if you you disagree like the idea
15:11of what we were doing in the past pen
15:14and paper is just going to seem so
15:16outdated it's going to seem almost silly
15:18to a degree that we didn't extrapolate
15:19that to the 3D World now that we have it
15:22yeah I I think that um you know I taught
15:24a lot of students with IEPs and
15:26different disabilities when I was a
15:27teacher and I would look at some of
15:29these IEPs and it would it would say
15:31things like well the student needs to
15:32visualize and I would be like that kid
15:35and everybody else the student needs to
15:37they have ADH to move around no people
15:39people need to move we haven't evolved
15:41out of moving so my kind of what I where
15:43my mind went to when you were talking
15:45was things that have been handicaps
15:47things that people have just kind of
15:48internalized as like this is a problem
15:50with me we're going to now normalize
15:52those and opening up all these
15:54modalities yes there are still some
15:56people that learn through paper pencil
15:57but let me tell you it's not the vast
15:59majority it's about 10 to 12% of the
16:01population I learned traditionally I was
16:02fine but I am not the majority majority
16:05of our students are not doing well the
16:07health of math class is not good my
16:09creatives my athletes people that look
16:11at the world in a fundamentally
16:13different way using their senses they've
16:15been shut out so what this is going to
16:16do is just create an amazing um kind of
16:20access point for more people as we open
16:22up the modalities it feels like there
16:24are probably many problems to be solved
16:27jobs to be done within education space
16:29overall and since you only have so much
16:31time you're building this company as a
16:33solo founder I just love to hear if
16:34there are any other gaps that you see
16:36that you'd love to see other Founders
16:38address or tackle whether it has to do
16:40with spatial Computing or otherwise yeah
16:42I think that it it's something that
16:44already numerous Founders Founders are
16:46working on the jury's out on exactly
16:48kind of how those technologies will land
16:50but the biggest area for Focus for us
16:52and the next chapter is going to be the
16:54the use of AI so right now our
16:56characters in our environment it's it's
16:57you have characters interacting they're
16:59not intelligent and so the way that it
17:01works is we have an authored system in
17:03the in so whenever kids get get get
17:05stuck they're able to go get help there
17:07is a feedback mechanism for teachers but
17:09the the real kind of powerful endgame
17:12for educational Technologies is being
17:14able to not just be in spatialized
17:15environments but have the right
17:18intelligence for students to get
17:19feedback and support at critical moments
17:21of struggle we began to kind of do kind
17:24to work with numerous G GPT Integrations
17:26and we fast realized that when you're
17:28not thoughtful about the cognitive
17:30framework that sits upon that and get to
17:31what is a root like when kids struggle
17:33they don't just need to to get the
17:35answer on something they're struggling
17:37because they have a lack of confidence
17:39and the emotional support that these
17:41that that AI needs to provide is kind of
17:43at the heart of whether AI is going to
17:45be effective in education or not and
17:47every great teacher knows that it's not
17:49access to knowledge that kids are
17:50missing it's access to experiences
17:53confidence mindset and belief in
17:54themselves and until AI can solve that
17:56more human problem I just don't think
17:59you're going to see the kind of impact
18:00that we want to see um and so I think
18:02that's like probably one of the biggest
18:04open questions in ettech today is the
18:06utilization of AI in a Humane and
18:08meaningful way and so if I wasn't doing
18:10this I'd be doing that that's what you'd
18:11be focused on but just FYI I'm going to
18:13build that next as a part of the the
18:14prism's world so excited to see what
18:16happens next with prisms yeah thanks so
18:18much for having me thank you for joining
18:20us thank you so much for listening to
18:22the a16z podcast if you've made it this
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