00:00so a lot of top talent are entering the
00:03remote market and they're specifically
00:05looking for organizations that not only
00:07offer or allow remote work but Empower
00:11people through remote work as in they do
00:13remote work really well so the bar has
00:16continued to rise for organizations
00:19which are remote it's no longer good
00:21enough to just be remote today we're
00:24talking pay Without Borders and we're
00:26doing it with three individuals Darren
00:28murf from gitlab Alex Boozies from deal
00:30and Sandra rash from safety
00:32before we dive into the meat of this
00:34episode I wanted to give a little bit of
00:36History so we're all familiar with the
00:3821st century of the office but the
00:40office has actually existed for hundreds
00:42of years seriously in 1560 we saw the
00:45predecessors in the office which was
00:46Florence's gallery and in the centuries
00:49to come we saw work reinvented many
00:52times over with perhaps the most
00:53well-known iteration of that the 40-hour
00:56work week by Ford Motors in 1926 and
00:59then came the cubicle that was in 1968
01:01we all have Robert Probst to thank for
01:03that but it wasn't until the 80s when we
01:04saw the internet appear on the scene and
01:06Wi-Fi released in 1997 forever changing
01:09the way that people work and live and
01:12since then many companies continue to
01:14adopt the practices from the 20th
01:16century despite the possibilities being
01:17fundamentally different I mean just
01:19think about it we have Internet we have
01:22phones the size of our pockets we have
01:243D printing I mean the technology that
01:27exists between 1926 when the 40-hour
01:30work week was invented to today is just
01:32fundamentally different and of course
01:34covid sent a shock into that system
01:35forcing many people to adopt a
01:37distributed model and despite still very
01:40much debate about what the future holds
01:42this episode will highlight the many
01:43ways that companies are being forced to
01:45continue adopting we'll cover all types
01:47of topics like how distributed work
01:49completely reshapes the way that we work
01:50and we hire things like how you can
01:52still attract top talent and whether
01:54remote is the only benefit that matters
01:56we'll also talk about what types of
01:58workers what types of companies come out
01:59on top of the sea change and what
02:01missing infrastructure is needed in this
02:03new environment and of course we'll
02:05tackle the question is the office dead
02:08so it will address all of these
02:09questions and much more so with that
02:11said I'm excited to present pay without
02:13porters the content here is for
02:15informational purposes only should not
02:17be taken as legal business tax or
02:19investment advice or be used to evaluate
02:21any investment or security and is not
02:24directed at any investors or potential
02:25investors in any a16z fund for more
02:29bca16d.com disclosures
02:41why don't we start off with a couple
02:43quick intros why don't you each give
02:44your name the company you work for and
02:46of course where you're calling in from
02:47because we are recording this remotely
02:49so Darren why don't we start with you
02:51yeah thanks I'm Darren Murph I'm the
02:53head of remote at gitlab calling in from
02:55North Carolina USA wonderful Alex let's
02:59pivot to you yeah and thank you for for
03:01having me I'm Alex Boise I'm the CEO and
03:03co-founder of deal and I'm calling you
03:06from Paris amazing and Sandra let's as
03:09they say popcorn to you uh great to be
03:12here Steph uh my name is Sandra I'm the
03:14co-founder and CEO of safety wing and
03:16I'm calling in from San Francisco The
03:18Old Town yeah the Old Guard still got
03:22some people there no I I hear that it's
03:24it's bouncing back but let's jump into
03:29um it's circling the Internet it's it's
03:31maybe a a silly question to start out
03:34with and I hope that we go a little
03:36deeper than this but I do want to ask
03:38from the three of you is the office Dead
03:41uh I'll start with this one I think the
03:44office mentality is dead or at least on
03:48its last leg and the difference there is
03:51when you talk about mentality it's about
03:54the the lifestyle that you had to live
03:56with the or the Persona that you had to
03:58carry in order to fit in and enable
04:01yourself to have a career that's gone
04:05especially in the knowledge working
04:07um distributed work has enabled
04:10companies to focus on results and create
04:12atmospheres where people can do their
04:14best work from wherever they are
04:16and so it leads to to two new realities
04:19one is that the actual physical office
04:22really has a new lease on life I'm
04:25actually really excited to see what
04:27people do now that you don't have to use
04:30physical real estate the same way that
04:32you once had to use it there's some
04:35interesting things that you could do
04:36with that from experiential spaces to
04:38Bringing people together
04:40but the other is that it enables
04:43companies to attract and retain Talent
04:46from all over the world and build a
04:49culture that's focused on results and so
04:52you're going to get just an amazing
04:54tapestry of of people that want to come
04:56work for for companies all over the
04:58world when you remove the physical
05:01office from the equation I'm sure we'll
05:03touch on this but we're at the the
05:05earliest stages of realizing that this
05:08is all about how work happens and much
05:11less about where people are and that's
05:14really I think is what's at the heart of
05:16that question yeah no I mean I I could
05:19add into that you know that's basically
05:21confirmed you know safe doing we have we
05:23have a location in San Francisco for you
05:26know Gatherings we have Gatherings
05:27around the world with our whole company
05:29or individual teams and so that's that's
05:35uh that's that's what in person mean in
05:37the future is what you do when you
05:40uh but in terms of like is the office
05:42dead like what is killing the office I
05:44think that the economic reality is is
05:46what is like really killing the office
05:47it's that if you're you know should you
05:50choose to work in an office if you're a
05:52startup then can work remotely uh I
05:56you know the difference between starting
05:58a company in some you know Midwestern
06:00small town and the kind of labor market
06:02that you have available there versus New
06:03York City there's as big a difference
06:05from New York City to hiring on the
06:08internet so that kind of the ability to
06:11hire the best in the world uh that is
06:14the kind of economic thing that I think
06:15will you know ensure that the companies
06:17that are remote will out-compete those
06:19who aren't because they will essentially
06:21hire the best in the world versus you
06:24know the best in their town you know and
06:26similarly from the from the employee
06:28side you know you could apply to the
06:30best companies in the world instead of
06:31just the best in your town see I have a
06:34very biased opinion I've never never
06:36worked in an office in my life so I
06:38don't know what you mean even but when
06:39you say the office is dead my
06:41perspective is you know there's
06:42different work environment and people
06:43have things that are more convenient for
06:45them and companies are going to whether
06:48it's on the funder whether it's on the
06:49type of people that they have have
06:50different setups that work best for them
06:52you know in our case for example we've
06:55got a thousand three hundred plus people
06:56and no offices we work in 80 plus
06:59countries right internally you know we
07:01found a good balance with having people
07:03on wework membership which they can do
07:05you know they can do whatever they want
07:07whenever they want and that's the good
07:08balance that what that's what fits us
07:10really well so the definition of the
07:12office is kind of fuzzy for me is it a
07:14place that you're sitting from nine to
07:15five with an assigned desk that's maybe
07:17that in most in in a lot of at least the
07:19industries that we're in my definition
07:21of an office given that I've never
07:23worked in that environment is just the
07:25ability to meet people and to just have
07:28my laptop and sit wherever I want to
07:29work yeah I love that you mentioned that
07:31because I worked in an office for one
07:34year and I've since worked remotely for
07:37many more than that and so I have this
07:40perception of like how could you not
07:42work remotely but similarly people who
07:44have worked their whole life in an
07:46office for like three four five decades
07:48and now have been forced to work remote
07:50that reality also seems just as
07:52far-fetched and so I do think it matters
07:53like when you entered the remote
07:55Workforce did you do it during covet as
07:57well but I think what I'm hearing from
07:58all three of you is this idea that
08:01the office quote unquote that we imagine
08:04from the last hundred years since you
08:07know the 40 hour work week was invented
08:08that is being disrupted that doesn't
08:10mean physical space won't play a part in
08:12our future but it also means that we
08:15have the opportunity to reinvent both
08:17the physical space and this digital
08:19office space that we all operate in we
08:22can rethink the way people work so it's
08:24not just digital physical and one
08:26example of this that I'm seeing a lot
08:28more of is this idea of asynchronous
08:30versus synchronous work so when you are
08:32in an office you are kind of forced to
08:34work quite synchronously right everyone
08:36comes in at nine everyone leaves around
08:38five and then you have to use that
08:40overlap effectively but when people are
08:42distributed with the technologies that
08:44we have today you can actually work at
08:47nine and then have someone else work at
08:49one and someone else in the Philippines
08:51working on the complete opposite time
08:53zone and I want to hear from you Darren
08:55on this subject because you are the head
08:57of remote at a pretty large organization
09:00but you also so I think work quite
09:03asynchronously can you talk specifically
09:05to the way that your organization thinks
09:07about async asynchronicity and
09:10specifically I'd be interested for you
09:12to speak to your meeting policy yeah
09:14sure so for context uh for those
09:16listening gitlab has over 1600 people
09:19we're a public company and we have
09:21people in over 60 countries all over the
09:24world and asynchronous work you
09:27mentioned sync versus async we try to
09:29look at it as sync complementing async
09:33there are there are two tools in a
09:35toolbox sometimes you need the
09:37synchronous tools sometimes you need the
09:39asynchronous tool but we've been very
09:43intentional about weaving asynchronous
09:45workflows into the culture at get lab
09:48and and to create massive Tailwinds
09:51around around this to really Galvanize
09:53people to learn to do things very
09:55differently maybe even counter to what
09:57has got them to a certain point in their
10:01the best way to do that is to integrate
10:04it into your values and operating
10:05principles it really can't it it's
10:07non-optional if you look at the gitlab
10:10values page you'll find an operating
10:11principle of bias toward asynchronous
10:14communication and we actually bundle
10:16that within our diversity inclusion and
10:17belonging value not our results or
10:20efficiency value and the core reason for
10:22that is if you are thoughtful and
10:24deliberate enough to move a piece of
10:25work forward without commandeering 30 or
10:2850 minutes of someone's day you are
10:31fundamentally being more respectful of
10:33their time and so for us async is about
10:36the work for sure but it's also about
10:38showing respect to other people now what
10:42do you need to do something like this
10:44it's it's quite difficult to stand it up
10:47and I think that's why you're seeing a
10:48lot of organizations who have quote gone
10:50remote essentially copy and paste the
10:53office environment into the virtual
10:55environment and not really take
10:57advantage of what's possible when you
11:00are globally distributed the core reason
11:02that I have found is that most
11:05management philosophies prioritize the
11:08speed of knowledge transfer as in how
11:11fast can person a tap person be on the
11:13shoulder and transfer something from one
11:15brain to the other but to do this well
11:18your management has to optimize for the
11:21speed of knowledge retrieval
11:23how fast can person a and person B seek
11:27and find information on Parallel tracks
11:30without needing each other to be online
11:33or awake or fully brought up to speed
11:36and this really gets at the heart of
11:38building infrastructure Building Systems
11:41that optimize for that and it's a
11:43completely different way of thinking
11:45from the the co-located Norms of getting
11:48people together such that knowledge is
11:50always in physical proximity to each
11:55other when you're working across the
11:57globe you can't assume that someone's
11:58available that they're online that
12:00they're in the same time zone that
12:01they're not on PTO so now we're seeing
12:05scramble to build systems Knowledge
12:08Management Systems so that that
12:11information isn't just in someone's head
12:13that's how you scale knowledge in a
12:15global space you did ask a bit about
12:17meetings so at gitlab all meetings are
12:19optional and we're very intentional
12:21about what a synchronous meeting has to
12:24have before it can even be accepted on a
12:27all work meetings have to have an agenda
12:29No Agenda No Agenda this is again being
12:32respectful of someone's time so that
12:34even if they can't make the synchronous
12:36meeting there's an agenda there from the
12:38start they can input their questions
12:40they can input a loom for example they
12:43actually can contribute to the meeting
12:44without physically being there and also
12:47this is how we scale information even
12:49after that meeting happens the agenda is
12:51still there we can go back we can
12:53reference it we can see what decisions
12:54were made if there's anything crucial
12:56that the entire organization needs to
12:58know we can document that in the
13:00handbook and that's how we enable
13:02meetings to be optional we also document
13:05what good meetings look like and what
13:08things shouldn't necessarily be in
13:10meetings be a meeting organizations ask
13:13me all the time how do we reduce
13:14meetings and my friends at levels Health
13:16have this concept of memos over meetings
13:19which I really like instead of the term
13:20asynchronous which feels very big and
13:22weighty and nerdy at times but things
13:26like fyi's status update dates and
13:28recurring meetings are the low-hanging
13:30fruit so if you're listening to this and
13:31you're like where do I start status
13:33updates fyis recurring meetings those
13:36are usually the first that can go yeah
13:38and gitlab has a handbook that covers a
13:40lot of this information and I think it's
13:43you know eating its own dog food in the
13:45sense that it is focusing on
13:47documentation so that anyone no matter
13:49where they are at what time even years
13:51from now can go back and leverage the
13:54information or the knowledge from gitlab
13:56having been a remote company for several
13:58years but I want to hear from Alex and
14:01Sandra hearing this this idea that
14:03actually you can work completely
14:04asynchronous is not something that many
14:07people are used to it sounds kind of
14:10crazy like when I when I had a friend
14:11from gitlab share this idea that
14:13meetings could be completely optional
14:15that was kind of like a reality Shaker
14:18for me I was like can that work
14:22I dare you there and to come work async
14:25on the payroll and compliance and visas
14:28and things like that you know I think
14:30every industry have different things
14:31it's work that can be done is saying
14:32this word that can be done I think
14:33there's different stage at a company
14:35when you're very early I don't think
14:37async work is the right way to go I
14:38think you need to build you to build
14:40fast you need to get things done but as
14:42a company scale right the way the way
14:43gitlab has done right and also I think
14:45it's very anchored to gitlab as a
14:47product right being able to write they
14:48think it's very it's very cultural
14:50product so this pieces of it that you
14:52can achieve and you can't right and I
14:54think it's important to be realistic on
14:55that and setting the right expectations
14:57right whether it's for funders or
14:58companies later on what are the right
15:00stages for you to really be async what
15:02parts of the business can truly be
15:04anything because if you set the
15:05expectation for the whole company to be
15:06there you know my guys on the customer
15:08support side are on the corporate
15:10cooperational side they're not going to
15:12leave the same life that you're going to
15:13be right so it's important to set the
15:14right expectation and to have the right
15:16mix of things at the company and as much
15:18more that can be async why not right
15:20like there's different people living in
15:22different time zones right so that's
15:23super important but as a whole company
15:25it's a bit more complicated I am
15:27actually on that side normally I'm the
15:28only one who's not uh probably thinking
15:30these conversations but uh uh yeah I
15:34built my previous company uh fully async
15:36meaning like zero zero meetings so often
15:39when you have the async conversation I
15:40will agree with you know you want to
15:41minimize meeting we want to do
15:42documentation you know I agree with like
15:4490 percent of what Aaron is saying uh
15:47and we've chosen the path of not full
15:49async in safe doing you know for the
15:51reason Alex said it slows you down
15:54on a particular project it can be at
15:56least I can see how you can overcome
15:58that and also the kind of weaker
16:00and instead you know we end up this you
16:03know situation where we have H we do
16:05bracket meetings constrain them 8 to
16:0811AM PST is when you know meetings can
16:10be booked Monday Wednesday Thursday so
16:12it doesn't kind of slide out into your
16:18and then I think you get the best of
16:19both worlds like you get that necessary
16:21time for coordination and fast project
16:23moving uh while at the same time giving
16:25you know people time to work in complete
16:27complete their tasks yeah I think I
16:30think there's not necessarily as Alex
16:31said a correct answer of sync versus
16:34async I do think there's a big Spectrum
16:37in the ways that people operate like I
16:39can share one example from me is I
16:41first worked remotely at a quote-unquote
16:44remote first company who had been remote
16:47from the ground up and they tended to be
16:48more async and then when I joined
16:50companies that previously had offices I
16:52was a little Jarred by how synchronous
16:54things were and so again it's not so
16:56much that it has to be fully async or
16:58fully sync but I think one interesting
17:01note is this idea again of being able to
17:03reshape this digital office and having
17:05it not be copy and pasted from the
17:08original office another thing that
17:10commonly comes up when people
17:12speak about remote work and maybe it's
17:14downfalls or pitfalls is culture right
17:17and and culture is something that
17:20notoriously is hard to build even
17:21synchronously within an office and it
17:24becomes that much more difficult
17:26asynchronously or online and uh
17:29something that I've noticed as well is
17:30this idea of copy and pasting so one one
17:32very very simple example is what people
17:34do when they uh want to run a happy hour
17:37they say everyone go buy some alcohol
17:39and then we'll sit in these squares on
17:42zoom and we'll we'll Bond right and it's
17:46like very little bonding happens in that
17:48way and so I want to hear from each of
17:50you how you've seen culture in
17:53particular be facilitated remotely
17:55because this is one of the things that I
17:57hear the most from people who are trying
18:00to make the pivot from the office to
18:03online is that they're really seeing
18:04that that culture is lacking so Sandra
18:06why don't we start with you as you've
18:08you know built up your company how have
18:09you been able to facilitate that
18:11well I mean the basics of I think you
18:14know a great culture is the same remote
18:17which is you know your vision and values
18:19you know are they worthwhile and you
18:21know are they conducive to Joy and
18:23productivity uh and then it's like how
18:26how do you reinforce that and you know
18:28and ensure that you know the norms and
18:30the way people treat each other in the
18:31company is in a way that you know that
18:36um so a lot of it does kind of Translate
18:40I think what you have to do in addition
18:43is you do need more Norms of written
18:45communication because more more stuff is
18:47done in writing so you need a culture of
18:50written communication not just a culture
18:52of verbal communication and so you know
18:56um so so we will talk a lot about that I
18:59also think you need to build a more
19:00broader lattice like a framework so you
19:03know we we're a small company but we're
19:05180 people from 70 different countries
19:07we're really in many places and so they
19:11are in all kinds of different locations
19:13when you build a company in a city you
19:15can sort of build on top of the cultural
19:17lattice in that City and you kind of
19:19don't have to say those things that are
19:21shared cultural norms when you are
19:23Global you have to build that like
19:26foundation for everyone so I do think
19:28that culture becomes more important you
19:30have to emphasize the kind of full
19:31shared cultural ladders that people can
19:33opt into and get onboarded uh onto so we
19:37you know from the start we took it you
19:40know incredibly seriously and had been
19:43able to build a great flourishing
19:44culture and and that's also the feedback
19:47from the people who work here so I do
19:48think it is completely possible and in
19:51unnecessary just to quickly double click
19:54on that when you say that you are
19:56outlining your culture or being really
19:59discreet about it like what does that
20:00look like because what I'm imagining is
20:03you know a culture page living on a
20:05website that says we care about empathy
20:07and we care about seriousness or
20:10productivity hard work blah blah blah
20:11like just all these terms that are kind
20:14of amorphous and honestly like every
20:17company cares about productivity every
20:18company cares about empathy in theory
20:20right but there is a hierarchy I think
20:22within every company but then I also
20:24how stating those on a page and I'm not
20:27saying this is what you're articulating
20:28but that's that's often what people
20:29imagine right that's sitting on them on
20:31a page does not actually disseminate
20:33within an organization and so how did
20:35you actually go about these kind of high
20:39level ideas of what your culture should
20:41be and actually implementing them and
20:43making sure that they're phased into the
20:45organization the these things that I'm
20:48about to say are not remote specific
20:49again but you know it's like one is you
20:51gotta believe in your values and uh and
20:54you have to be a great example of them
20:55and then you have to hire for them and
20:58then you have to reward
21:02them and kind of in how you you know
21:04promote and build people in your
21:06organization you have to kind of
21:07reiterate them and make choices based on
21:09them so like when people see
21:11you know it's kind of like you know when
21:13people talk about oh no this is a soft
21:15value what they mean is it doesn't
21:17so then your values aren't being
21:20disseminated but if people can see you
21:23know like in safety Wing we might for
21:25example say oh yeah no we ended the
21:26relationship with this vendor because we
21:29were not able to kind of lift them up to
21:31the what we want to do on the value of
21:33authenticity because they were just you
21:35know giving us this you know uh
21:39like marketing language or
21:41something like that that was offensive
21:46you know when people can see that that
21:48this is not just you know uh you know a
21:51vague aspiration but it's a it's
21:54actually a hard constraint it's
21:55something that we're willing to take
21:57costs to achieve then it becomes uh you
22:02know enforced and it's something to
22:04emulate and then it becomes you know
22:06also something people can rely on
22:07because then they understand oh yeah
22:09indeed this is the culture the the
22:10written explicit discrete statements
22:15about the culture in the company matches
22:17what I see in the behavior of the
22:19founders and and how the choices that
22:21are made in the company and then it's
22:23going to be permeated awesome Darren I
22:26want to hear from you because you work
22:28at well actually both of you Darren and
22:30Alex you work at incredibly large fully
22:32remote organizations how did each of you
22:35go about that same process of building
22:37culture within your companies I think it
22:40starts with defining what culture is at
22:42your particular organization because
22:45everyone will join your organization
22:47with a different interpretation of what
22:49culture is past experience their own
22:51personal beliefs so step one is actually
22:54defining what culture is so of course at
22:56gitlab this is documented it's really
22:58composed of three things one is values
23:00and operating principles with sun which
23:02sandre already emphasized the second is
23:04building camaraderie you have to
23:06formalize ways to encourage informal
23:09communication and then third is how you
23:12work defining how work happens and this
23:15goes back to the sink and async
23:16conversation customer service for
23:18example Works far less async than other
23:21organizations and so you have to
23:23understand what are the Ebbs and flows
23:25between the organization hedge against
23:27that friction that's going to to find
23:30its way in if you don't but defining how
23:33we work plays a big part in culture and
23:35I think a lot of companies don't pay
23:37enough attention to how work gets done
23:39and how communication happens that is
23:42critical to culture so being very
23:44intentional about that is a massively
23:48Third Leg I do want to say two things on
23:51that I mentioned operating principles
23:53within values this is how we create
23:56behaviors out of those words on a wall
23:59that you mentioned if you look at the
24:01gitlab values page it doesn't stop with
24:03the six core values there are
24:05literal behaviors that you can practice
24:09short toes is one of those and one of
24:11the examples is you have permission to
24:14give feedback or input on anyone else's
24:16function or domain and they should
24:18collaborate with you with short toes
24:20as in you know you can't step on
24:22anyone's toes that's very operational
24:25you'll know you'll know if someone is a
24:27receptive to input or feedback from
24:30another function then you're doing it
24:32right if not you're you're doing it
24:34wrong so that's how you can
24:35operationalize uh the the values you
24:39mentioned the zoom happy hour I do want
24:40to give one example that leaders can
24:42Implement tomorrow on this so I came up
24:45with this idea called a community impact
24:47outing so if you're going to invite 1300
24:50people to a zoom happy hour
24:52as a management team that's 1300 sunk
24:55hours you're never going to get that
24:57time back so that's already that's
24:59already happening right so if you're
25:01committed to that here's a better way to
25:04you give people an hour of their week it
25:06doesn't have to be on a Friday I mean
25:08time is relative an hour of their week
25:10to go do something meaningful to them
25:13maybe it's volunteer at a food bank
25:15maybe it's reading at a local library
25:17the only thing you ask them is to wear
25:19company swag and take a selfie while
25:22so they spend that hour doing something
25:24uniquely meaningful to them in the
25:26community that matters to them and then
25:28they share all of this content back in a
25:31public Channel and instantly you build
25:34authentic bonds for example I'm an
25:37adoptive father I might choose to spend
25:39my hour working at an orphanage or in
25:42the adoption field when I share that
25:44back if someone else on the team is
25:47considering adopting or they were
25:51we have a connection now there's instant
25:54Community built this is real genuine
25:56authentic relationship in the workplace
25:58that you probably won't get out of a
26:01zoom happy hour so same hour spent much
26:05higher impact and this is something that
26:07would be very difficult to pull off in a
26:09co-located space so for leaders who are
26:11becoming remote or they've been Force
26:14remote these are some of the
26:15opportunities that you can lean into to
26:17do things differently and and build
26:18culture in a new way I like that you
26:21shared that and Alex will be going to
26:22you in a second but I just wanted to
26:23note that there is this just immense
26:25opportunity to rethink how you build
26:27culture and some examples of this are I
26:30think hotjar was a company that just
26:32gave their employees a stipend that said
26:34actually you know we don't think that
26:36you're going to build culture in these
26:38digital Zoom happy hours we actually
26:40want you to go and like hang out with
26:41your co-workers to co-work with them and
26:43so I think it was like a thousand
26:45dollars or two thousand dollars a year
26:46and they could actually go and fly to
26:49wherever their co-workers lived and
26:50spend time with them or you know if they
26:52lived close that could go towards a
26:54dinner or to things that you could do in
26:55real life you know many other companies
26:57rely on quarterly offsites and then this
27:00idea of copying and pasting I think is
27:01really important because it's the
27:02natural tendency to just replicate what
27:06you know but what I want to see more
27:08companies do is instead of Zoom happy
27:09hours like throw your team in like
27:11fortnite or something throw your team
27:13into something digitally native where
27:15they can have fun and that's where you
27:17Bond right where I've seen people bond
27:18in these again quote unquote happy hours
27:21is when they're doing a game or you know
27:22you hear these like digital Escape rooms
27:24but throw them in something where they
27:26can do something together because that's
27:28where camaraderie is born right it's not
27:30born by like forcing people to awkwardly
27:33talk together can I actually add a
27:35couple of examples that I think can be
27:36helpful that we do so uh we have on
27:40Monday the first 20 minutes people get
27:43distributed into random groups of three
27:44and then we give a prompt and we've
27:47thought about this so that's like R1
27:50kind of cohesiveness thing it actually
27:51receives really high scores it sounds
27:53like a waste of time uh but it's it's
27:56really a good one and then we also have
27:57these like value talks on Monday where
27:59someone gives a five minute take on one
28:01of the values uh themselves that's
28:04another one one that you know we've had
28:06a lot of success I think you're a
28:08customer of uh of our product there and
28:10right um connections required a company
28:12called roots and they have a plug-in
28:15that plugs into slack where they uh
28:17invite people to people from the company
28:19the same company at the same time so
28:21that they can get so that one I mean
28:23we'll obviously big fans right because
28:24we use it and we acquired the company
28:26because how great the team was that one
28:28has helped quite a bit Alex can you just
28:30explain a little bit more about what
28:32that tool does yeah it's super simple
28:34but actually Darren are you guys
28:35customers yeah PTO by Roots yeah we've
28:38we've been using too okay you use PTO so
28:41Roots has another plug-in
28:44um where basically whenever you're on a
28:45select right you've got like a hundred
28:47people 200 people every week you can
28:50Define the Cadence but every week they
28:51just take two people from the team and
28:53match them together like the whole
28:54company and they just kind of like not
28:58for you but push you towards like having
28:59a conversation and meeting with people
29:01across departments just very helpful and
29:04we are competed by the company really
29:05love it and they they create meaningful
29:07bonds and they understand each other
29:08better for that nice I think if you're
29:11able to build good culture that
29:13naturally will incentivize people to
29:14want to stay but I think another big
29:16question within this idea of distributed
29:18work is how do you actually incentivize
29:20people to join your company in this much
29:22more competitive landscape and so
29:25naturally every company out there has a
29:29big question of how do I attract top
29:31talent and I want to hear specifically
29:35if you saw a shift when covet happened
29:39and when many many more companies went
29:40remote if you saw a shift in your
29:43ability to attract top talent and I
29:44asked this because I know for quite some
29:47time there was almost like a bundle of
29:49companies and it was not that big that
29:51was fully remote sizable and it had
29:55um it had a unique position in the
29:56market because there weren't very many
29:59jobs out there that were fully remote
30:01remote first paid well Etc and I think
30:05for a period of time several years
30:07before covid those companies
30:09actually could attract top talent quite
30:11easily because they had this one benefit
30:12you know I've heard some people say the
30:14one benefit that matters is remote work
30:15and so things have clearly shifted right
30:18the supply of remote jobs has gone
30:21through the roof as has the demand but I
30:24think the supply has shot up more so I
30:25want to hear from you Darren have you
30:27seen a shift in your ability to hire
30:30really top talent remotely has the
30:32marketplace become more competitive
30:34interestingly it's yes and yes so the
30:37market has become more competitive
30:40for the reason you just mentioned all of
30:42a sudden there are far more options for
30:45people to work fully remote it used to
30:48be a very small pool of employers now
30:53but what has also happened is that
30:55people who were absolutely committed to
30:57co-located or maybe didn't even consider
31:00remote work a feasible pathway for their
31:03career are suddenly considering it a
31:07feasible pathway for their career so
31:10they are going out and seeking employers
31:13that are fully remote and interestingly
31:15we're fully remote before covid before
31:19because they've had a taste of what
31:22freedom and flexibility and truly
31:23getting to design your life without
31:26sacrificing your career they've had a
31:28taste of that and especially for
31:30employers that are forcing teams to
31:33return to an office that becomes the
31:36trigger for them to say okay I've proven
31:38to myself that I can work remotely even
31:40under very sub-optimal conditions
31:44alert to this potential that my career
31:47won't necessarily be squashed or
31:50thwarted if I work remotely there was a
31:52bit of a negative connotation with it
31:54before not so much anymore so a lot of
31:57top talent are entering the remote
31:59market and they're specifically looking
32:01for organizations that not only offer or
32:04allow remote work but Empower people
32:07through remote work as in they do remote
32:10work really well so the bar has
32:13continued to rise for organizations
32:15which are remote it's no longer good
32:17enough to just be remote you have to be
32:20intentional about investing in teams and
32:23leaders and tooling to build the
32:25infrastructure to make it an awesome
32:28experience I mean Sandra mentioned this
32:30even though there's certain elements of
32:32the company that they love having
32:34synchronous moments the backbone of that
32:37is a rigor around documentation the
32:40backbone of that is the infrastructure
32:42is there so that even if you are in a
32:45different time zone than the founding
32:46team you can still function there and
32:49function well and enjoy more flexibility
32:51than you could in the past so it's it's
32:54yes and yes there's more people now
32:56looking for great remote jobs and remote
32:58companies are now held to a higher
33:00standard because just having remote is
33:02no longer good enough
33:09you've all heard of companies that are
33:11tracking their employees and making sure
33:13that they're productive within certain
33:15hours and measuring them in those ways
33:17instead of measuring them through their
33:18outputs or their impact within a company
33:21but I also want to hear from you Sandra
33:23as a company that provides health care
33:27or insurance which you could say is a
33:29benefit right that many companies offer
33:31do you have a take on the changing
33:33landscape of benefits and that just
33:36being one aspect of what talent is
33:39looking for and just to set this
33:40question up a little further in the past
33:42you had companies like the Fang
33:44companies being able to attract top
33:46talent because they gave huge packages
33:48but they also gave all these wild
33:50benefits within their offices and some
33:53people may still be looking for those
33:55precise benefits but
33:57I wonder if you're seeing a shift in the
34:00types of things that Talent is looking
34:02for in order to join one company over
34:05another and I also would love to hear
34:06just how you're seeing safety Wing play
34:09yeah and I I think actually Alex could
34:13talk a lot to the trends that he's
34:15seeing so you know what's happening
34:19um you know we you both have the kind of
34:22fang-like modern benefits being built
34:24but you also have the basics being built
34:26so you know when when we ask people who
34:30you know sign up for a health insurance
34:31what they had before the most common
34:33answer is still nothing
34:35right so and for for contractors it's
34:38almost like almost all of them uh you
34:41know this has been incredibly difficult
34:43to buy before the basics of benefits
34:46like health insurance and retirement is
34:48still not really available uh it's very
34:51difficult so you have of course options
34:53you know you can use services like uh
34:56deal that does make it much easier to
34:58buy but for a large part of the internet
34:59labor force uh just building out the
35:02basic infrastructure is still where
35:07there are you know a lot of the like
35:10Silicon Valley benefits have kind of
35:12come their way into the remote Workforce
35:14you know unlimited holidays you know
35:16minimum holidays uh we do have that at
35:19safety wing and you know various other
35:20fun ones like personal development
35:22budget or buy your own plans or indeed
35:25like you said earlier expense trips to
35:26colleagues expense virtual meals Etc
35:29but it is the kind of Basics like can
35:31you work remotely holiday you know
35:34health insurance those are the things
35:35that people you know really uh really
35:37care about and uh and you know become
35:41motivated to apply somewhere in order to
35:43do uh what we want to do with safety
35:45weighing is to kind of build out you
35:47know one part of that infrastructure you
35:49know it's uh we started with the health
35:50insurance we're continuing with uh you
35:53know retirement disability uh and so
35:57that you can offer the same basic
35:59benefit Suite you know as a virtual as a
36:01remote company remote global company
36:04um and you know continue onwards till
36:06you know the future we see which is that
36:09uh something like a global social safety
36:11net where in the end these services will
36:15not unlike the way they are bundled in
36:17countries today and that you will have a
36:19membership in one and uh indeed we we
36:22think that we're saying in our vision
36:25statement we're building the first
36:26global social safety net for the first
36:28country on the internet uh which I know
36:30you will have another episode about
36:32so we will definitely touch
36:37we definitely want to hear from
36:39here for this unique Insight or
36:42oversight into how different companies
36:44are hiring whether they're hiring
36:45part-time roles contract roles or
36:48full-time how are you seeing this
36:50landscape shifting are companies
36:52offering different types of benefits are
36:54companies rethinking their need to bring
36:56on certain types of talent what are you
36:59seeing in that market yeah I guess for
37:03um I do we help companies hire around
37:05the world we basically build the whole
37:07infrastructure for them to be able to do
37:09so without having any so as you said
37:11they can hire people as independent
37:13contractors we've got over 90 plus
37:15entities around their words we can hire
37:16people as ftes and give them you know
37:19benefits as if they were locally hired
37:21or now we actually even help you manage
37:23your own entities right so starting to
37:25build a full stack of HR for Global
37:27teams I mean you know there's different
37:29perspective I think right now we're very
37:33biased simple so we serve about 10 000
37:35customers from small customers to to
37:38large companies publicly trading
37:39companies and I think overall in the
37:41tech world you know like concerned said
37:43right it's the same type of benefits
37:44they're trying to be given out across
37:46the board when it comes down to
37:48contractors or employment you know our
37:50employment infrastructure
37:52is pretty new in this space contractor
37:55was kind of the default model because
37:58um the eor space right amplif record
38:00space just wasn't as built out so it was
38:02either I hire people as contractors or I
38:05opened a country and entity and go
38:06really hard in that country
38:08um so now that things have shifted this
38:10different perspective to the
38:11conversation is of course the benefit
38:13aspects but there is mainly the
38:15compliance aspect of how am I operating
38:16in the country so every company have
38:18different types of models on how they do
38:20that more companies were interested in
38:23the Empire frequent model recently
38:24because it is brand new and the ability
38:26to hire people as employees and again
38:27there is technicalities as it's easier
38:30to get a mortgage right if you're
38:31employed versus being a contractor right
38:33so there's lots of those different
38:34technicalities to it what we're seeing
38:36now is kind of a healthy mix of both and
38:40when it comes down to to benefits in
38:43people have a tendency to try to give
38:45more or less the same thing and be fair
38:46across the board that's kind of what
38:47we've seen I think the interesting part
38:49and by the way that's something you guys
38:51are discussing and would even love to
38:53hear your thoughts on that there and
38:54it's for me remote work is not remote
38:56work it's just work right and that's I'm
38:58hoping the term remover kind of
38:59disappears over time right it's more
39:01about how you're doing work and how
39:02people are structured and you know the
39:04output that they have and I think the
39:06key thing that we're seeing and these
39:07people are starting to because they're
39:09starting to look out right from their 30
39:11miles ranges right they're starting to
39:12hire globally and hiring globally right
39:15means that you're starting to have more
39:18consideration right for what is standard
39:21in one country compared to another from
39:22a benefit standpoint but at the same
39:24time right as you scale you want to be
39:25as standardized as possible right so
39:27that brings a lot of interesting and
39:29complex challenges which we're having
39:31fun solving but yeah I mean overall
39:33the word is a is a is this a big place
39:36and there is amazing talent everywhere
39:39I think more and more people are
39:40realizing that it's about you know
39:42working with the right people doesn't
39:44really matter where they are as long as
39:46you've got the right Talent right and I
39:47mean I'm not saying anything new here
39:48but that's really the trend we're seeing
39:50right from like the small companies all
39:51the way to I mean you know we onboarded
39:53a Formula One team yesterday as a
39:55customer right so like you've got a very
39:57big breath of products and people
39:59yeah I will agree that long term the
40:02word remote goes away and it's just work
40:04what we're talking about is the
40:06workplace we're still going to use the
40:08term remote for a while because we've
40:10done it the other way for so long that
40:11it's a necessary qualifier in the
40:17um but my my son is three right now it's
40:20highly unlikely that he'll ever see work
40:23any other way I'll have to show him
40:26YouTube videos of millions of people
40:28getting in a personal vehicle and
40:31driving to somewhere they don't live
40:34to open a computer that They Carried
40:36with them and it's going to blow his
40:40he it's going to require an explanation
40:43it's going to be one of those
40:45generational things where you can show a
40:47pencil in a small circle in a cassette
40:51like do you know what this is like oh
40:53yeah I used to rewind the cassette tapes
40:55using that this is the workplace
40:57cassette moment or fax machine moment
40:59and it's very much a massive shift that
41:02shouldn't be underestimated yes I I
41:05remember talking to a friend recently
41:07and was like I wonder when they're gonna
41:08stop teaching kids handwriting in
41:10schools which sounds crazy given our
41:12generation because that's so
41:14foundational to or at least my education
41:16growing up and I don't know if that'll
41:19disappear anytime soon because it is
41:20also a cultural signifier or it's it's
41:23it's almost like a step to learning to
41:27read which you know then leads to
41:29comprehension and so it's all
41:30interrelated but I do wonder what things
41:34we're used to really foundational things
41:36in our society which of those will be
41:39relics and it actually reminds me also
41:41of something I saw recently which was a
41:43tweet I think it was from 1891 or sorry
41:45the Tweet covered a newspaper article
41:48from 1891 where someone was slamming the
41:51office because that person felt like we
41:53should all be hunters and gatherers and
41:55like outside and in the wild and so I
41:57wonder you know if we're seeing certain
42:00um permutations of that today right
42:02where what we think of as work 100 years
42:05ago was not the office right we should
42:07say 200 years ago was not the office and
42:09then 100 years ago it was the office and
42:11then today it's something else but to
42:13both of your points like that is work
42:15right it remote work is just a modifier
42:18that we've added in this current
42:19juncture when there's a debate about
42:23at its core it's leveraging technology
42:25remote work is a product so humankind
42:27invented the Internet we're finally
42:29using it and leveraging it in a way that
42:32helps people live better lives and and
42:34leaders build more durable organizations
42:36so it's it's been a long time coming
42:38yeah and I think we're seeing
42:40this technology reshape the competition
42:43that we're seeing in the market we've
42:45already alluded to this but I want to
42:47hear your take Alex in particular on
42:51what you're seeing in terms of pay right
42:53because as this Market has so many
42:55different participants from many
42:57different countries there is a question
42:59that has come up which is location-based
43:01pay right do you pay someone based on
43:03where they live or do you set a standard
43:05rate based on what your company is
43:07willing to pay and there's arguments on
43:10both sides of the aisle but I want to
43:11hear from you specifically on what
43:13you're seeing what are companies doing
43:15currently not what people want people to
43:17do but what are the actions truly being
43:19taken Within These companies are
43:23Falling Towards the side of we're going
43:25to set a rate and that's going to be the
43:27rate for our employees or our companies
43:29adjusting based on location yeah and
43:31that's an interesting questions uh an
43:33instrument question in general we
43:35actually released this our insights tool
43:37based on our data sets we've got
43:38hundreds of thousands of people hired so
43:40if you've gone Dill when you create a
43:42contract or even outside of that you can
43:44see based on the role the seniority and
43:46the location what on average people are
43:48paying um for a specific person and a
43:50specific role obviously what we've seen
43:53over the last few months right and I
43:55think that's also tied to
43:57how much Venture Capital money was
43:59available as well right so we've seen a
44:01lot of people around the world very
44:03talented people get hired and just
44:04generated the pay right increase quite a
44:07bit and got some hard data I think you
44:09mentioned that at the very beginning
44:10right we released a global report on the
44:13data trends that we're seeing from a pay
44:15scale perspective and from a hiring
44:16country perspective but I think you know
44:19that makes a lot of sense right some
44:20very talented people are starting to
44:22work for larger companies and you know
44:24whether it's the best practice of the
44:26company or there were you know different
44:28people have different perspective on how
44:30to tackle it internally that deal is
44:32generally we pay based on Country rates
44:34uh if you think we pay usually type of
44:37Market but still within the market I
44:38think one of the reason why a lot of
44:40companies have hired around the world
44:42writers because local time tends to
44:44become very expensive right if you want
44:45to hire an engineer in the Bay Area this
44:49just I mean a lot of the businesses I
44:51love and know don't actually make sense
44:53right when you run the numbers if you're
44:54a software engineer level 2 cost you
44:58um so you know going global is just
45:00redistributing wealth and redistributing
45:02opportunities has definitely balanced
45:04out this a little bit where very skilled
45:06people get tend to get paid higher but
45:07at the same time you know you're not
45:09you're not paying those people the same
45:10that you'd be paying in San Francisco I
45:12I do think some companies are trying to
45:14do that I'm not really sold on the
45:16long-term aspect of this I again I think
45:19businesses need to be profitable and you
45:20need to pay people fairly and I just
45:22think Bay Area salaries are just out of
45:24control and that everything will come
45:26back hopefully to an equilibrium there
45:27but in general obviously as large
45:31American well-funded companies have
45:33entered Market it's a great way to get
45:35people to leave their company in your
45:37company they live locally is um to pay
45:39them a lot more than what they would get
45:40paid there got it and I want to hear
45:42from both Darren and Sandra because you
45:45operate companies at scale with many
45:47employees distributed all across the
45:49world across dozens of countries so
45:51Sandra why don't we start with you how
45:52do you think about that within your
45:55yeah so we have opted for uh flat you
45:59know they are the argument for it would
46:01go something like this you know
46:03remote has made the world into a global
46:04labor market and most people just
46:06haven't realized that yet so when you
46:09when we hire you know an extremely
46:11talented you know Palestinian genius
46:15software engineer you know at the moment
46:17we hire them there may be like partly in
46:19their local labor market but by the time
46:21they have you know safetying under
46:23LinkedIn and they know about working
46:24remotely as a software engineer and
46:27they're in the remote labor market and
46:29they can apply to other jobs so then
46:31there I would say like suddenly they're
46:32underpaid because it is a different
46:34labor market you know the labor market
46:36is what are the participating employers
46:38and employees in a particular Market
46:42um and they are of course affected
46:43because they also have the local
46:45employers right that are competing at
46:47their salaries but the global ones is
46:49where it's at so I would say that's the
46:50direction so we say we chose to kind of
46:53like skip to the the end of the market
46:55equilibrium immediately and we have a
46:57flat salary and there's also some
46:59fairness and I can understand you know
47:00there is pros and cons like the fairness
47:02argument favor of local pays living
47:06but you know with the people who work in
47:08safe doing they're so mobile so they
47:10they move around the world and it seems
47:13a bit like kind of subsidizing a
47:15lifestyle choice you know if someone
47:16choose to you know move to San Francisco
47:18yes indeed the salaries are off the hook
47:20there the living costs are also off the
47:22hook here you know just like you
47:24wouldn't subsidize someone moving to an
47:26expensive neighborhood
47:28um you know if they can you know maybe
47:30you know we won't see the same about
47:33subsidizing moving to an expensive city
47:37um I think that you know fundamentally
47:38it's the value of the contribution you
47:40know the that that you know will
47:42determine the market equilibrium over
47:44time and so that's the choice we make so
47:46if you're choosing this flat approach
47:49how are you setting that is that based
47:51on where your HQ is and if it is if it's
47:53not an SF are you finding that it's
47:55tough to hire some of the talent that is
47:58at those upper echelons yeah I mean that
48:00that kind of depends on you know what
48:01talent we're looking for right so uh in
48:05our case we are within the SF band Yes
48:08you know but we're not on the top of
48:10this event you know we're not competing
48:14I don't know who was it on top Walmart
48:16highest paid engineers
48:19they have to pay more but uh uh it's um
48:23we are in that range yes and you know I
48:27think that seems to be where it's going
48:28right now I I kind of like Alex a bit
48:30baffled by that I saw the some data from
48:33car to last month which saw that U.S
48:36jurisdictions were actually converging
48:37on San Francisco salaries uh in their
48:40data set which is of course just a
48:42national like us data set
48:45um that that it's possible that is what
48:49will happen for the top for top talent
48:53right in knowledge work
48:55because you know if uh you know the you
48:58know even if you live in some Tiny Town
49:01with uh you know 5 000 people
49:03if you are like an amazing machine
49:06learning engineer you can still have a
49:07great job at Google right so
49:10and and maybe it is the the most
49:12productive companies uh like them that
49:15will you know that will compete for you
49:17so we'll that might be what will happen
49:20that we will Converge on the top talent
49:23on on the Bay Area salary well it's
49:26mainly because people move and they
49:27don't tell their managers or people move
49:29and their managers are too scared to say
49:31you're now not in San Francisco you're
49:33in a place that because half the price
49:34uh I'm you know telling having the
49:36conversation of like for fairness I need
49:39you to break Libre is very complicated
49:41as well right so I think that happens
49:43quite a bit too I love that you brought
49:45that up because there is
49:47almost like a gamification of whatever
49:50system you're in right where people are
49:53debating both the company and the
49:55individual are debating how much
49:56information to share right should we
49:58share exactly how we're calculating how
50:00people are paid or should we you know
50:02tuck that behind the belt should I tell
50:05my employer that I'm living actually in
50:07an outskirt of SF so it's not as
50:08expensive or should I tell them I'm
50:10living in an SF or should I tell them
50:11I'm planning on moving to a much you
50:14know much cheaper location that
50:16information sharing is being adjusted
50:18because there is this very complex
50:21calculus that I think every company is
50:23going through now at least the companies
50:25that are choosing to be distributed and
50:26Darren I think you're the perfect person
50:28to speak to this because gitlab at least
50:30for a period of time had an open
50:33calculator right where it actually
50:35showed exactly how people at gitlab were
50:38paid of course names removed you don't
50:40know who's making this money but you
50:42could actually say hey I'm a product
50:43designer of this tier living in this
50:46place and it would spit out a number it
50:47was fascinating because it was open not
50:49just to employees but the public so I
50:51remember looking at a job a while ago
50:53being like oh maybe I should work at
50:55gitlab and I plugged in my information
50:56and I was like okay I know what I'm
50:58gonna make if I if I work here and I
51:01think gitlab maybe pulled that back a
51:04little bit I don't might be public to
51:06your internal employees but it's
51:07certainly not public to the outside
51:09world but how did you think about that
51:13or how did the company think about
51:14sharing that information and how or why
51:17has that thinking maybe been adjusted
51:20yeah so because gitlab is so rigorous
51:23about documentation you can google and
51:25find old blogs about how this we call it
51:28the compensation calculator came to
51:30exist and the calculator that you
51:33mentioned Steph it is still there it is
51:35behind an employee firewall now so
51:37everyone that works at gitlab has access
51:39to it if you're a recruit you're a
51:40candidate you'll have access to it as
51:42well in becoming a public company there
51:45were certain things that were connected
51:46to that that just made more sense to to
51:49have it there but we still believe in
51:52look situational leadership applies here
51:55the answer is it depends it depends on
51:58the company it depends on your industry
52:01it depends on if you're already
52:02profitable or not it depends on so many
52:05Market factors and it will probably
52:08change in a quarter or a year
52:11we are at the earliest stages of a
52:14massive globalization
52:19so pay attention the one thing that I
52:22advise to leaders is to pay close
52:24attention to how expensive it is to
52:26rehire or regain top talent
52:30there was this push early in the
52:32pandemic to think about cutting salaries
52:34if people moved from a high cost of
52:37Market region to a lower cost of Market
52:41region but the truth is there are some
52:43ancillary cost with that rehiring
52:45retraining institutional knowledge that
52:47is lost all of that ends up factoring
52:52those are good points and
52:56animation based or not but I I do think
52:59that it's fascinating what you mentioned
53:01what you're seeing about things actually
53:03moving to that upper echelon because I
53:05think many people would expect the
53:07opposite to happen because as you make
53:08everything distributed you do get access
53:11to Talent elsewhere and I'm sure many
53:13people have heard the Trope of you know
53:15you can get equal talent for a third of
53:16the price maybe a Trope may not be a
53:19Trope I've certainly heard of examples
53:21where that is true and on that note Alex
53:24I think it'd be interesting to hear from
53:25you about your Global hiring report how
53:28are we seeing different regions of the
53:30world shift based on their ability to be
53:33hired places or to hire from other
53:35places are there certain regions that
53:37we're seeing grow or Shrink or how are
53:40those Dynamics playing out at the larger
53:41level yeah in general you know we're
53:44differencing a couple it depends on the
53:46roles right then and generally what I
53:48look at the most is engineering because
53:49you know that's where Talent is the most
53:52um you know and we're definitely seeing
53:53quite a rise in salaries and in location
53:56you know I think I'm saying that too
53:58many too much to be honest uh I think
54:00people are gonna start really looking at
54:01the country about Brazil for example has
54:03been an amazing place for town from an
54:05engineering standpoint and salaries have
54:07definitely gone up there and you've got
54:09other amazing place like India Colombia
54:11right these are these are great places
54:12and a lot of people are hiring there
54:15um and in general there's also different
54:17Trends we're seeing around people going
54:19into more remote friendly cities right
54:21that's also another thing that that's
54:22quite interesting from a movement
54:23perspective but overall you know the way
54:26you need to think and this is the way I
54:28think about it is you're seeing
54:29definitely large hubs being created from
54:34top companies having been built in the
54:36market right so if you look at Brazil
54:38again you've got new bank right amazing
54:40alumni super great talent they've got
54:42they've built out the infrastructure
54:43same thing happened in India same thing
54:45happened in Uruguay I ride with the
54:47local and and those talents are starting
54:49to spend out and realize okay I've
54:50learned a lot I've worked in very
54:52successful companies in Tech I can now
54:54work for a global company that's gonna
54:55you know increase my pay because I'm not
54:57locally competing anymore and have the
55:00same standard and the same approach in
55:01the same mindset and culture right
55:03that's very important right the same
55:04culture that a lot of the global
55:06employers really have right so generally
55:08we're just seeing that all over the
55:11world the top town like you said Sandra
55:12gets to get to work for the best
55:14companies that's I mean that's what
55:15we're here for right that's that's what
55:18um it's been really interesting seeing
55:21some very obvious winners and research
55:25is very tied to one strong rigor and
55:28strong engine in that case again
55:30engineering or strong educational
55:31ecosystem right like Eastern Europe or
55:34South London that's in America and
55:37another thing that that reminded me of
55:40in the effort to find top talent
55:42companies also seem to be shifting their
55:46approach to vetting top talent right so
55:48something that I've noticed in the
55:50industry is a move from not necessarily
55:53getting rid of interviews but also
55:55inserting a lot more assessment in the
55:57process of vetting top talent and in
56:00addition to that I've also seen some
56:01companies bring on someone as a
56:03contractor first because that
56:04infrastructure exists before they
56:06actually hire them full-time as more of
56:08like a vetting period have any of you
56:10seen elements of that within your
56:12companies or otherwise in terms of how
56:15people are actually shifting their
56:16approach and again not just attracting
56:18top talent but vetting that Talent
56:20I'll I'll start with gitlab we like to
56:23say that no one accidentally ends up at
56:25gitlab you very much self-select into it
56:27and for us it starts with documenting
56:30our strategy our vision so that there
56:32aren't any secrets kind of the worst
56:34possible outcome is you join a company
56:37and then six months in you think huh
56:40thought on flexibility isn't exactly
56:43compatible with mine at the root of
56:46unhappiness is this misalignment between
56:48expectations and reality and so in
56:50hiring whatever you can do to create a
56:53clear view of what reality looks like at
56:56your company uh the better so two great
56:59ways to do this one is to pull up the
57:02values and operating principles page at
57:03some point during the interview and ask
57:05people what resonates what do you love
57:08about this what don't you love about
57:10this and you want to get clear early on
57:12if it's going to be compatible you want
57:15to make sure that there's as much values
57:17and operating principal alignment as
57:19possible and I've also spoken with some
57:21leaders at smaller organizations some of
57:25whom are transitioning to remote so
57:28I mean part of their remit is going to
57:31be being a part of a massive change
57:34management company-wide change
57:36management program and I've advised them
57:38to implement the boring solution which
57:40is add a line item in the job
57:42description that says you are excited
57:44and enthused about being a part of
57:46building a new and Innovative culture
57:48and you want to bring that up if someone
57:50shows up and they say no I want to work
57:52in a place that's fully baked then this
57:55probably isn't going to work for you and
57:57especially for transitioning orgs write
57:59it into the job description you want
58:01people that will be galvanized that come
58:03in as Tailwinds not apathetic or
58:05headwinds and it's really critical if
58:08you're transitioning to make sure that
58:10you bring people on that want to be a
58:12part of that change to Darren's points
58:14you know the way one other thing that's
58:16been really fun I do is now that we're
58:17starting to get quite quite larger you
58:20know we've been working with Fortune
58:21500s in terms of helping them understand
58:25what does the future of work kind of
58:28looks like right like it's becoming very
58:30obvious that you know my sister was a
58:33couple years younger does not approach
58:34work the same way I did and you know I
58:36don't worry the same way my parents did
58:38right then it's very important for them
58:40to to have the flexibility of
58:42understanding how do people work today
58:44how do they set up from a compliance
58:46infrastructure what do you need to do
58:47right in order to give the right
58:49flexibility to people to make sure that
58:50you can attract the top talent right and
58:52that's very very much top of mind and
58:54we're seeing much more organization
58:56being more mindful of that because the
58:58cost for them is is not as large right
58:59it's just understanding what does to
59:02some extent what does work
59:04structure balance means to to those
59:06people and how do how to best facilitate
59:08that and uh I mean it does come down to
59:10to what you mentioned earlier so that
59:12has been quite quite a bit of fun it's
59:14the new it's my new role right working
59:15to working with those bigger companies
59:17and help them understand how to under
59:19how to best play out the next couple
59:22years when it comes down to like how to
59:23roll out your organization
59:25just on that note what are some of the
59:28gaps that let's just take like someone
59:30who works in the Fortune 500 who's been
59:32doing that for the last 30 years and who
59:35concrete vision of what work
59:38has been in the past
59:40Alex what are some of those gaps in
59:42terms of maybe things that they might
59:43not know things they might not
59:44understand maybe things that they should
59:45be thinking about like how many days of
59:48the year can my employees my full-time
59:50employees from a specific country be in
59:51another country are there things that
59:54uncovering as you go through these
59:56conversations that you think maybe more
59:58of these leaders should be thinking
01:00:01yeah I mean there's there's tons right
01:00:03like a very basic example is
01:00:06my employee wants to live in five
01:00:10different countries over the next year
01:00:11right uh that's like there's much more
01:00:13complex cases than that but that's a
01:00:15very basic one we're seeing that a ton
01:00:16right A lot of people want to be digital
01:00:18Nomads I think safety wink started as an
01:00:20insurance for digital Nomads as well
01:00:21right so that the team was you know so
01:00:24quite a while ago and you know that's a
01:00:26super complex cases right tell me
01:00:29um chro uh I'm Gonna Leave three months
01:00:32there four months there three months
01:00:33there you're gonna give that you know
01:00:35that in a headache right and and there's
01:00:37so many of those cases like that one is
01:00:39the most obvious ones but there's so
01:00:40many of those cases where those
01:00:41organizations one don't even have the
01:00:43tools to support this type of
01:00:45infrastructure but a lot of the times
01:00:46they don't even comprehend it right like
01:00:48um they expect you to come to the office
01:00:50from nine to five whatever like you're
01:00:52going past that is sometimes very
01:00:56process for them right so it's a culture
01:01:00shift that one I believe is going to be
01:01:02necessary right because of the workforce
01:01:05um but it's also even a tool shift right
01:01:07and this is why you've got companies
01:01:08like ours right or Sunrise Company no I
01:01:11I can definitely confirm that you know
01:01:13we have for the you know the Nomad
01:01:15product we have you know 100 000
01:01:16customers and they cluster like actually
01:01:18Alex mentioned from his uh survey
01:01:21you can see they're kind of like
01:01:22choosing citizen countries a bit like
01:01:24people choose products so you know that
01:01:26that's a secondary effect of remote work
01:01:28that is emerging and you know it's one
01:01:30of the interesting things about our time
01:01:32and uh you you know you definitely see a
01:01:34lot of them struggling you know if they
01:01:36work in a Fortune 500 with
01:01:39uh you know frustrated HR departments
01:01:41trying to figure out how to square
01:01:43uh this new reality you know with uh
01:01:46with uh with rules and systems that you
01:01:49know are often obsolete to deal with it
01:01:52I mean it's it's so true that some of
01:01:54the rules and systems are either
01:01:55obsolete or outdated I mean there's
01:01:59um over time which just don't really
01:02:02apply in many scenarios as it relates to
01:02:05remote work or to to speak to some of
01:02:08the the things you were mentioning Alex
01:02:10I worked for a large Enterprise company
01:02:13prior to this and they were figuring
01:02:15that out and they had a policy where you
01:02:17could I think spend 90 days outside of
01:02:19your country or your your base that
01:02:22you're being paid out of but they also
01:02:24had a restricted list and I'm Canadian
01:02:25and Canada was on the restricted list
01:02:27and it was so fascinating to me because
01:02:29I was like wait I'm Canadian and I can't
01:02:31go back to Canada and work there they're
01:02:33like no because you're an American
01:02:34employee and I think they they ended up
01:02:36opening offices in Canada but it's this
01:02:38yeah there's just so many intersecting
01:02:40regulations and so many people and
01:02:43companies and governments trying to
01:02:44catch up to what we're working with here
01:02:46and figuring out I like that you said
01:02:48like Square the circle Sandra like how
01:02:50do you actually figure some of this out
01:02:52because some of the rules are just not
01:02:53written yet so Alex how are some of
01:02:55these leaders how are they getting this
01:02:58information is it just about
01:03:00Googling the right things is it about
01:03:02talking to people like you who have the
01:03:06information from many other companies
01:03:08what does someone do if they're in that
01:03:10position yeah I mean there's a couple
01:03:14um most sea levels are heads up at
01:03:17companies um usually have their own
01:03:19networks of people that they usually ask
01:03:20to right between sharing policies or you
01:03:24know some people will do the work and
01:03:26then share it with others right so we've
01:03:28seen quite a bit of things I think every
01:03:29company is adopting different types of
01:03:33um I'm quite close to a few people that
01:03:34used to be on gitlab so I know the
01:03:36Playbook pretty well in terms of like
01:03:37contractors employees or then you know
01:03:39opening your own entities so I think
01:03:41each company kind of defines their own
01:03:42things and then share it there's no real
01:03:44source of Truth for that which we're
01:03:45trying to Define to some extent
01:03:47um so there's a couple player in the
01:03:49industry they're trying to define the
01:03:50best practice on how to do this right
01:03:51and in you know the complexity is where
01:03:54navigating International laws at scale
01:03:58right and they very much differ from a
01:04:00country to another sometimes they differ
01:04:02from a state to another right and there
01:04:05is no right answer yet it's just a
01:04:07matter of like building the right
01:04:08content and working you know we're at a
01:04:10stage where you know we're starting to
01:04:12work with governments in terms of
01:04:13establishing those roles as well which
01:04:15is quite interesting right so instead of
01:04:17working in a gray area of hey my worker
01:04:20is moving from a country to another I
01:04:21want to hire them in that country but I
01:04:23don't have the right infrastructure
01:04:24right I think we're getting to a
01:04:25critical point where a lot of
01:04:26governments not all yet but a lot of
01:04:28governments are realizing that one
01:04:30there's an opportunity right there's a
01:04:32ton of governments that are being super
01:04:34helpful so that more people see them as
01:04:36in attractive countries right and
01:04:37there's a couple of things playing uh in
01:04:39their hands right like brexit was uh was
01:04:42I don't I don't know if everyone would
01:04:44agree with that but from from a talent
01:04:47standpoint right like it there is a lot
01:04:49of amazing people that left the UK and
01:04:50they had to find the next best place for
01:04:52themselves and a lot of countries
01:04:54friends being one of them uh they've got
01:04:56other things that are not really good
01:04:57but you know they have an amazing tax
01:04:59incentivization situation I think that's
01:05:02what you said to make you come back to
01:05:04the country to make you move to the
01:05:05country and lots of countries are being
01:05:06very forward about this you know
01:05:08recently we did a pretty large
01:05:10partnership the UAE as they kind of
01:05:12looked at the market and said hey we
01:05:14want the best town to come and we're
01:05:15going to make it easy for them to come
01:05:16right where we're now able to process
01:05:18visas in like five seven days right and
01:05:21for some very high talented uh for very
01:05:23talented people and
01:05:25um I think I think that part is super
01:05:27super interesting right and uh as
01:05:29governments are becoming more
01:05:30forthcoming on this and they really want
01:05:32to help I think companies are going to
01:05:34get more comfortable with the models and
01:05:36that's you know that's why I love my job
01:05:38right like we're exactly at the right
01:05:39place on that front where
01:05:41all there was no rules two years ago
01:05:43there was no tools two years ago there
01:05:45were a couple but like they were not to
01:05:47the standard that you and I are
01:05:48expecting and now we're getting to build
01:05:50out the infrastructure that's very much
01:05:53needed right and similarly on the health
01:05:54insurance place like I mean is the wild
01:05:57west there it's very hard to build a
01:05:59global team and give like a great
01:06:00Insurance health insurance there and uh
01:06:03across the whole stack there's so many
01:06:05amazing companies to be built you know
01:06:06also being on that same Frontier that
01:06:08Alex is it's how fluid and willing the
01:06:12countries are these days to do things is
01:06:15actually amazing you know we didn't
01:06:17invent it but we've been this like
01:06:18promoted this Nomad visa thing which the
01:06:21first country implemented it in 2020
01:06:23Barbados Now 50 countries have
01:06:25implemented it a member of our team
01:06:27spoke at the floor of the United Nations
01:06:28about it like three months ago and like
01:06:31multiple countries have reached out to
01:06:33help for us to help them set it up so
01:06:36like that there because like Alex said
01:06:39they're they're looking to get the
01:06:40upside of this new world like they want
01:06:42to attract they didn't know much they
01:06:44want to track the remote workers they
01:06:45want to track their remote companies and
01:06:47they see this as a great opportunity so
01:06:49that Dynamic has really kicked into gear
01:06:51you know where where people are they
01:06:53wanna they want to succeed in the new
01:06:56world and and they're so much more fast
01:06:58moving that than I thought possible just
01:07:01yeah well competition will do that to
01:07:03you right now that they realize that
01:07:06they are competing for talent to a
01:07:08the I liked the analogy that one of you
01:07:11gave which is that these countries or
01:07:13these states or nations they effectively
01:07:15need to orient as products right like
01:07:18how do we reduce the friction for people
01:07:20to interact with us how do we make our
01:07:23documentation really seamless the same
01:07:25way we talked about documentation for a
01:07:26company right like how do people know
01:07:28what they can or can't do with us
01:07:29because if that's not clear they're just
01:07:31going to go to the next state and work
01:07:33with them right and again that's both on
01:07:36the individual level of moving to those
01:07:37places but also the company level like
01:07:39can we hire in in your jurisdiction can
01:07:42our employees spend part of their time
01:07:43there and so I think it's a fascinating
01:07:45question to ask and we're obviously
01:07:47going to see a lot of new infrastructure
01:07:50come to be in the next couple years and
01:07:52so I want to kind of end off on this
01:07:54idea of infrastructure right because we
01:07:56are in this new paradigm we're seeing
01:07:58the C shift of many people asking good
01:08:01questions about what is to come because
01:08:03not all of it is defined right and and
01:08:05we're not here to predict the future but
01:08:07I'm curious to hear from each one of you
01:08:09if there are gaps like very clear gaps
01:08:13that you see in the current market
01:08:14whether it's the ability to hire whether
01:08:17it's the ability to move or live in
01:08:19places as an employee that need to be
01:08:22solved or should be solved
01:08:24um in the next couple years in order to
01:08:26really Elevate this distributed
01:08:28Workforce and just to give like a very
01:08:30simple example if we think about like
01:08:31second third order effects it's
01:08:33something that we've seen happen as more
01:08:35people start to work remotely and less
01:08:37office infrastructure required we see
01:08:41like a big shift happening from Office
01:08:43Space to residential space right and so
01:08:45that's like one industry where if people
01:08:47are interested there's opportunity there
01:08:49right so are there other areas that you
01:08:51see almost like being surfaced from this
01:08:54sea change where you think ah okay we
01:08:57need a company there we need a Founder
01:08:59to think about that question and I guess
01:09:01I'll open it up to the group to see if
01:09:02anyone wants to to start but yeah I
01:09:04guess to reiterate the question what
01:09:06infrastructure is missing
01:09:09I'm a bit Wildlife on these topics but
01:09:11uh so you know city building is
01:09:14definitely opened up you know I've I've
01:09:16seen hotel resorts being remed into
01:09:21Resorts I've seen uh hotels being re-med
01:09:25into this like co-work co-living
01:09:27situations across Asia that's happening
01:09:29now at a big space there are several
01:09:31several cities being founded uh you know
01:09:35there's a couple of castles in European
01:09:36women into towns there's a city being
01:09:40attempted started outside of Texas
01:09:42this hasn't happened for 100 years I
01:09:44think this is a fascinating uh
01:09:46development because I really want to see
01:09:48what kind of new cities people will
01:09:51um you know it's been so long since the
01:09:53kind of last big population
01:09:56so that's one number two I would say is
01:10:02um you know credit scores it's like
01:10:05really basics of being able to enter
01:10:07into contracts you know imagine you know
01:10:10let's say you sign a contractor
01:10:11agreement with some today and you don't
01:10:13use a new or service like like deals but
01:10:15uh it will say you know this or you buy
01:10:18something on the Internet it will say
01:10:19this is arbitrated in what Delaware not
01:10:21exactly sure what it says on the
01:10:22contract but you know but you're a
01:10:25company from Hong Kong and your customer
01:10:27or contractors in Argentina you know
01:10:29it's it's it's not going to work so you
01:10:32need uh I think we can build legal
01:10:36arbitration for things like labor
01:10:38contracts and other things
01:10:40um so that's that's uh that's an area
01:10:43where I would love to see someone begin
01:10:45as well as you know credit scores to
01:10:48unlock the ability for you know Nomads
01:10:51for people who work on the internet to
01:10:52get loans and mortgages that haven't
01:10:54been made yet you know the entire
01:10:56internet economy is still built and
01:10:58going to trust less basis but you can
01:11:01unlock massive massive new categories on
01:11:05the internet once you solve the trust
01:11:07giving infrastructure that's beneath it
01:11:09so that's my uh my third request please
01:11:12build that's my new pet project if you
01:11:15wanna if you want to work on it that's
01:11:16the one thing I've actually been working
01:11:18on exactly for a couple of months now so
01:11:21I'm very excited about it uh the idea
01:11:23that uh it's I mean it's a very simple
01:11:25idea right like Banks don't understand
01:11:27you because you're not an employee
01:11:29that's working nine to five at a company
01:11:31in France they don't understand you and
01:11:32that's why you know I've seen so many
01:11:34people use our eor like want to work as
01:11:37independent contractors because it's a
01:11:39better setup for them but being forced
01:11:40into an employer of record model or
01:11:42local employee model because Bank
01:11:44surgery is not going to look at them if
01:11:45they don't have the right like credit
01:11:47score the right infrastructure so I
01:11:48actually love this idea and I've been
01:11:50toying with it quite a bit
01:11:52um I mean I'm very biased because I am
01:11:55sadly I'm very focused on like you know
01:11:58compliance and all those things right so
01:12:01um there's so many there's so many
01:12:02things that need to be built there from
01:12:05um you know Equity globally like we're
01:12:07trying to do Parts here but it's such a
01:12:09such an interesting topic where most
01:12:11people don't really understand and
01:12:13that's kind of like the next layer right
01:12:14like you've enabled companies to hire
01:12:16but then now they want to understand
01:12:17Global Equity issuing and how they
01:12:19actually do that and I think there's a
01:12:21user Market there that's kind of like
01:12:23I'm for the taking for akata or a new
01:12:25type of company to kind of go for
01:12:28um but you know I think that's like my
01:12:30perspective it's uh I forgot the term in
01:12:33the U.S but it's like the the rush to
01:12:35gold right or something that like I
01:12:37don't remember the actual Rush Oh like
01:12:39um build troubles exactly right so like
01:12:41there's so many things that can be built
01:12:43in this space and um even though it
01:12:45feels like there's a couple companies
01:12:47maybe even like the other building a lot
01:12:48of that stack there's so many smaller
01:12:51things even at a country level that can
01:12:52be built right if you look at there's a
01:12:54company called um rebase right that just
01:12:57help like build a simple tool for you to
01:12:58set up in Portugal like those are
01:13:00amazing companies that need to be built
01:13:01and I'm excited to see how many
01:13:03especially as more people are starting
01:13:04to be much more entrepreneurial and
01:13:07willing to build smaller products and
01:13:09like you know the whole bootstrap
01:13:10environment and and and wave in general
01:13:14is going to enable a lot of great
01:13:15entrepreneurs to build hammers in the
01:13:18space that solve one problem in really
01:13:19well and there's so many of those that
01:13:21yeah it's very exciting all right I'll
01:13:23give you two companies and a product so
01:13:25the first is a company that employs life
01:13:28designers life agents
01:13:31so think of a travel agent but for life
01:13:34so in the past you might say I have a
01:13:36week of vacation I should call a travel
01:13:38agent and ask where should I go
01:13:40but now if you can live and work
01:13:42anywhere in the world
01:13:43it's kind of daunting for a lot of
01:13:45people like what if you've never
01:13:46designed your life what if you've just
01:13:48let an HR department tell you what city
01:13:49you're going to live in and they
01:13:51significantly constrain your options so
01:13:53there's not a lot to think about
01:13:54this is incredibly debilitating and
01:13:57perplexing for a lot of people and so I
01:14:00think there's an opportunity there for
01:14:01someone to come in and ask people a lot
01:14:03of questions to really get a beat on
01:14:05what fulfills them what makes up their
01:14:07purpose portfolio and then give them a
01:14:10slimmed down set of options on where
01:14:13they could go to have the most impact in
01:14:15a community to be the most fulfilled and
01:14:19help them think about things they might
01:14:20not be thinking about now that their
01:14:22career and physical location are are
01:14:26so that's one the second one is a riff
01:14:29on something I heard on my first million
01:14:31which is Oceans 11 teamwork but for
01:14:34knowledge workers
01:14:35so in Oceans 11 there's a heist that
01:14:39needs to happen and so there's a lot of
01:14:40backdoor conversations on getting
01:14:42exactly the right team together for
01:14:44exactly the right project well now that
01:14:46knowledge workers can work anywhere in
01:14:48the world I see an opportunity for six
01:14:51or seven people to only ever want to go
01:14:53in with the same six or seven people to
01:14:55be the absolute best at very specific
01:14:58projects I think that's very interesting
01:15:01there's some interesting Arbitrage that
01:15:03could happen there all right so that's
01:15:05two companies the product
01:15:07decision making I'm of the belief that
01:15:09we have some massive challenges ahead of
01:15:12us as a society I'm an adoptive dad so
01:15:15the orphan crisis is front and center
01:15:16for me and I see tens of millions of
01:15:19people going remote and I think well
01:15:22they could use that recaptured commute
01:15:24time to make a big dent in the orphan
01:15:26crisis people who may have been called
01:15:28to Foster or adopt but it's too hard
01:15:30their schedule is too rigid so they just
01:15:32opt out of it entirely well now all of a
01:15:35sudden these people are back in that
01:15:36market there are probably a lot of other
01:15:38crises that I'm less familiar with
01:15:41well what's at the heart of stopping
01:15:43people from doing this especially in
01:15:44organizations it's the speed at which
01:15:46they're able to make really informed
01:15:48decisions and as companies get more
01:15:51distributed unless you're very
01:15:52intentional about that decision-making
01:15:54framework and infrastructure this can
01:15:56become really complicated really
01:15:58difficult it slows things down there's
01:16:00less Rapport so I think there's
01:16:02something interesting in this
01:16:04decision-making framework that helps
01:16:05people really leverage a distributed
01:16:08network of people to move faster with
01:16:10smaller iterations through two-way doors
01:16:12it's going to be a different management
01:16:14philosophy but if we can make smaller
01:16:16decisions faster decisions and with
01:16:18deeper conviction I think we can solve a
01:16:21lot of these problems that our society
01:16:23as a whole are challenged with yeah I
01:16:25just want to highlight something that
01:16:27relates to something we talked about
01:16:29earlier which is the meeting philosophy
01:16:31that gitlab has which
01:16:34only works if you have a clear decision
01:16:37maker right you can't have these
01:16:39asynchronous meetings where everyone
01:16:40gives their feedback but then you have
01:16:43to do a decision by committee right so
01:16:45the only way that works is having these
01:16:46clear decision makers who at the end of
01:16:48the day are required to take feedback
01:16:50but are not required to incorporate it
01:16:52in the final decision so I just thought
01:16:53that was like an interesting way to
01:16:55think about that being foundational to
01:16:57that that way of working even being
01:17:02um and I loved hearing all three of you
01:17:04talk through different opportunities
01:17:05because even as you were talking through
01:17:07things that needed to be implemented or
01:17:09things that were missing in this
01:17:10infrastructure the wheels were just
01:17:12spinning there's so many interesting
01:17:13things from like fractionalized real
01:17:16estate to how do we actually make for
01:17:18example like land use policy and API and
01:17:21I think the final thing I wanted to say
01:17:22is is I'm very excited about how our
01:17:25dependence on companies changes and what
01:17:28I mean by that is you I think it relates
01:17:30to something you're working on at safety
01:17:31Wings Andre which is in the past
01:17:34especially in in the United States your
01:17:36ability to get health care or something
01:17:38that you spoke to
01:17:39Alex is your ability to even get like a
01:17:42loan or a line of credit is based on
01:17:45your job right your employment
01:17:47relationship and that I think naturally
01:17:50will change as top talent does become
01:17:55more independent right and does have
01:17:57many relationships with many employers
01:17:59and many other people like your example
01:18:00Darren so I think that's maybe an
01:18:02interesting thing for people to consider
01:18:05is just how does that relationship
01:18:06change how do how do people
01:18:08just have a new type of model with with
01:18:12before we end things off is there any
01:18:14closing thoughts on the future of work
01:18:16that any one of you wanted to share
01:18:19I learned a lot I thought this was
01:18:21awesome and I would encourage leaders
01:18:23who are leaning into the future of work
01:18:25to pay attention to like folks on this
01:18:28call and people are being awesome about
01:18:30building in public
01:18:33there's no defined Playbook we're
01:18:34building this in real time so leverage
01:18:37that look at this as an opportunity
01:18:39instead of through the lens of scarcity
01:18:42and and fear this is an exciting time to
01:18:44be alive and and building teams yeah I'd
01:18:48um you know remote work for me is just
01:18:51work so if you want to be a performing
01:18:54organization over the next few years if
01:18:56you want to make sure companies like
01:18:57ours don't take your best out and you
01:19:00got to be able to have the right
01:19:01infrastructure to be flexible if not you
01:19:04know we'll be there and we'll take good
01:19:05care of your employees
01:19:07if you don't keep up with the very very
01:19:10quickly evolving space of work not
01:19:12necessarily remote work or distributed
01:19:14work some company out there will
01:19:16probably eat your lunch so thank you
01:19:18Darren Alex and Sandra for taking the
01:19:20time today we will include where people
01:19:23can find you in the show notes and we
01:19:25will include all types of resources like
01:19:27the git lab handbook the um the deal
01:19:31Global hiring report thank you guys this
01:19:34was very fun and informative thanks all
01:19:37thanks for having us thanks everyone
01:19:40thanks for listening to the a16z podcast
01:19:43if you like this episode don't forget to
01:19:45subscribe here on YouTube to get our
01:19:46exclusive video content
01:19:48I'll see you next time
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