00:00our brain isn't a filing cabinet it's
00:02very messy it's very interconnected is
00:04it is it misunderstanding what we really
00:06need from these tools in the first place
00:08your previous thoughts and work and
00:10effort being processed by this external
00:13cognitive entity that's like literally a
00:15second brain that would be incredible
00:17this new feature set does unlock
00:19something that I've been waiting for
00:21it's fun to organize your stuff right if
00:25you organize information you will make
00:27more money and you will be happier
00:29history has shown us this is not true if
00:32you think that you need a good writing
00:34app to write your book you're just wrong
00:39since the rise of the computer humans
00:42have been gripped by the idea of having
00:44a second brain but has reality held up
00:48to that promise how many people spend
00:51more time organizing their second brains
00:53instead of leveraging the information
00:55within them how many people constantly
00:57look for a better to do App instead of
00:59actually checking the to-do's that
01:01they're organizing and how many people
01:03have an endless stream of data that
01:06they'd love to one day process but they
01:08just don't have the right tools or time
01:10to do so due to the structured directive
01:13nature of computers to date computers
01:16have been a shell of maybe the second
01:17brain that we've long hoped for still
01:20incredibly powerful but also requiring
01:22discrete instruction from the director
01:25but within the last year consumer AI has
01:27shown up to the party now capable of
01:29processing simple language prompts and
01:32interfacing with unstructured data
01:34possibly fundamentally changing this
01:37game so today we chat with writer Matt
01:39Eliason Nat has tried the full gamut of
01:42Knowledge Management tools but he's also
01:45written prolifically for years read 250
01:48plus books created courses grown viral
01:50social accounts ran an agency and even
01:53recently Inked a book deal and yet even
01:57that questions the productivity promise
01:59of the current toolkit so can AI change
02:03things and enable our second brains to
02:07let's find out as a reminder the content
02:10here is for informational purposes only
02:12should not be taken as legal business
02:14tax or investment advice or be used to
02:16evaluate any investment or security and
02:18is not directed at any investors or
02:20potential investors in any accz fund for
02:23more details please see a16c.com
02:36all right not great to have you on the
02:39line great to be talking about Knowledge
02:41Management at one point you were writing
02:43a lot about productivity Knowledge
02:44Management and that's one of the reasons
02:46that we have you here and and tell me
02:48about why you got into that space I
02:50think at one point I adopted the belief
02:53as many do that the more I learned about
02:57productivity and the more knowledge I
03:02more financially successful or happy or
03:05whatever I would be and ended up going
03:09very hard down that track because a lot
03:11of people do once they get the idea in
03:12their head something with the tools just
03:15clicked very well for me where something
03:18about the way I was using it wasn't as
03:21immediately intuitive to people's and
03:22then in particular with Rome for those
03:25who remember that Ma that it was really
03:27like a Mania I think I I just got very
03:31lucky that I was super early on it was
03:34using it before a lot of other people
03:36and I was one of the I was probably I
03:38think it was one of the first people
03:39with a small to medium-sized audience
03:43who talked about it and then I think
03:45that helps people with much larger
03:47audiences pick it up tell me a little
03:48bit more about your saying you you seem
03:50to have this intuition about how to use
03:52them and then you shared that with other
03:54folks what was it delivering for you and
03:56then subsequently others you know that's
03:59a good question because I'm not sure
04:02that I could honestly say all of the
04:04effort has delivered a
04:08compensatory amount of value in the
04:11sense that I you know I think that this
04:13is just like a very common mistake or
04:16like causation versus correlation thing
04:17that people make including myself which
04:19is that they look at something that
04:21somebody does who they look up to and
04:23they assume that oh because they do that
04:26thing that's how they're able to do this
04:28other thing that I like and respect
04:29because they wake up at 5am that's how
04:31they could start this business uh when
04:33it might as as it might just as well be
04:36the opposite in the sense that uh
04:38because they're the type of person who
04:39can start that business they also like
04:41to wake up at 5am right uh and I feel
04:44like I might actually be more in the
04:47even as a kid I very much enjoyed
04:51finding interesting bits of knowledge
04:53and then sharing them with people or
04:54trying to explain them and so I almost
04:58like this kind of digital Magpie I enjoy
05:01just collecting shiny bits of
05:03information and to the extent that it's
05:04helped with writing most of it hasn't uh
05:07the the only thing that I could say
05:09definitely has really helped is a habit
05:1412 or 13 14 years now of like taking
05:18notes from the books that I'm reading
05:20and so I used to do this on Kindle now I
05:23do it on physical books and use read
05:24wise to extract the highlights but the
05:27medium that I organize those highlights
05:29in doesn't seem to matter because I had
05:31them in text files at one point I had
05:34them in Evernote I had them in notion I
05:37had them in Rome I had them in uh back
05:40in notion right like I've moved them
05:41around I've lost a lot of the formatting
05:43and additional annotations so many times
05:45that it almost doesn't matter
05:47like you're almost saying it could be on
05:49a stone tablet and as long as you have
05:51that there or is it maybe the search
05:53ability there's only maybe a few
05:54functions that you need in order for it
05:57to be useful not all of the features set
05:59well yes I think it's really the
06:02the the searching the indexing and the
06:05collecting that are very helpful but
06:08pretty much all the other features are
06:10often like get in the way or become
06:12distractions or give you the sense of
06:14photo activity right like oh I'm doing
06:16all of these I'm organizing my knowledge
06:18you know you probably should be writing
06:19or like playing with your kids or doing
06:21something else right
06:24um the but expanding on that the thing
06:26that's really been helpful is the actual
06:28reading the books right like I wish I
06:30had spent more time reading more books
06:33continuing to hyper optimize my
06:35highlights from the books I had already
06:37read maybe there's something meta here
06:39though where to your point it's like
06:40because you feel like you're being
06:42productive with the notes that you take
06:44Within These Knowledge Management tools
06:45it makes you want to read more books
06:47because you feel like they're more
06:48useful but at the same time it does seem
06:51like there is this false
06:53understanding of what you're getting
06:55from these tools but one thing that I
06:58noticed was when you and a few other
07:00creators saw Rome like you said there
07:02really was this almost like Mania and
07:04maybe something behind that Mania at
07:06least it felt to me was as though there
07:08was an unlock as as though the prior
07:11knowledge management tools were lacking
07:13something that this now provided so
07:16maybe you could speak to that experience
07:18yeah it's funny because this all
07:21happened at an interesting time where I
07:23had gone through Thiago Forte's building
07:25a second brain a couple of years before
07:28and when I went through it I was having
07:31these conversations with him about how
07:32much I hated Evernote because
07:35it it really forced you into this
07:38hierarchical way of organizing your
07:40information and so you had a folder for
07:44home or whatever and then you're putting
07:45your notes about your house in there and
07:47you have a folder for books and you're
07:49putting all your book notes in there but
07:50pretty much every piece of knowledge
07:52should live in multiple places and you
07:55could also do tags and stuff but the
07:56tags felt clunky and so what was
07:58exciting to me about Rome when I saw it
08:00was it introduced this more of a like
08:04Knowledge Graph uh which is really I
08:06think how we think about things right
08:08like that's more of how our brain works
08:10our brain isn't a filing cabinet uh it's
08:12this very it's very messy it's very
08:14interconnected and it felt like it fit
08:17that much better for me and that's what
08:18made me so excited about it and I think
08:20made so many other people excited about
08:21it we kind of take for granted
08:23today if you're getting into Knowledge
08:24Management today almost every tool has
08:26this right uh you know notion very
08:28quickly adopted this same uh you know
08:32interconnected backlink structure that
08:34Rome popularized and I think that's
08:37great because I use it in notion all the
08:38time now uh that's the main tool that I
08:40use and that that feature in particular
08:42was what felt so magical because to the
08:44point that we talked about earlier very
08:46few things in these tools are actually
08:49useful for improving the creative output
08:52which I think what you're really
08:53optimizing for by using them uh you know
08:55search is very useful and the capture is
08:58very useful and I do think that these
09:00bi-directional relationships between
09:02bits of information are super useful as
09:04well so that you can log a few notes on
09:09something or log a few connections on
09:11something as long as it's connected to
09:12two or three other things in your second
09:15brain or whatever you want to call it it
09:16will be very easy to resurface it later
09:18much easier than if you have to pick an
09:21arbitrary folder to put it into you at
09:23least for me you have to remember the
09:25route right you're saying with Evernote
09:27you have to remember oh there's this
09:29thing hidden in you know four layers of
09:31folders and I have to remember it's
09:33there versus you're saying the
09:35interconnectivity allows you to surface
09:37it more easily almost like stumble upon
09:39it would you say or a little bit more
09:41like that and the thing that I liked
09:43about it too was that Evernote required
09:46or I should say any hierarchical file
09:48system requires very deliberate
09:50placement of each piece of information
09:52you have to think about it a lot where
09:54you put it it doesn't it might not seem
09:55like you do but you kind of do because
09:56you're saying okay in 10 years if I
09:59don't know I need this piece of
10:00information how do I accidentally
10:02refined it whereas with uh a much more
10:06like widespread hyperlinked Knowledge
10:08Graph style you can kind of just like
10:09slap 10 different relationships onto it
10:12and you'll probably be able to find it
10:13again in the future that's so
10:15interesting I was uh filing something
10:17away because I'm still in ancient times
10:20I still use Evernote but uh I was filing
10:22something away and I had this thought as
10:24I was doing so yesterday I've just I
10:26will never see this again well I I had a
10:29few people reach out to me over the last
10:30week or two and they said hey you know I
10:32need to migrate all of my stuff into a
10:33new tool what do you recommend
10:35and I said well like don't migrate
10:39just like start using a new tool
10:41and then for the next three months so
10:44see which pieces of information you end
10:48and then go migrate them
10:51but what you will probably find is that
10:53you can delete 95 to 99 of everything
10:57you have in Evernote or notion or
10:59whatever and never feel that pain for
11:01the rest of your life it's so true and
11:03in a way it reflects on the fact that so
11:05many of us are digital Hoarders where if
11:07we did the same thing with physical
11:09items we'd end up in these homes just
11:11you know boxes and boxes and boxes and
11:13in a way because it costs so little and
11:16it is kind of out of sight out of mind
11:17we do it digitally but that kind of
11:20brings me to this question not do you
11:23think that maybe the way that these
11:25Knowledge Management tools haven't quite
11:27lived up to their promise is that just
11:29because we misunderstand the way our own
11:32brains work and what we we really need
11:34and we kind of convince ourselves that
11:36we need these Knowledge Management tools
11:37or is it a facet of these tools not
11:41having the right technology maybe the
11:43right feature set yet and obviously this
11:45will eventually Dove tell tale into our
11:47conversation around AI but I want to get
11:49a sense of like is it us
11:50misunderstanding what we really need
11:52from these tools in the first place
11:56it might be more of a false promise
12:01because I think if you look at say the
12:04notion marketing or the Evernote
12:07they advertise themselves as a a Wiki as
12:12filing cabinet uh and they do those
12:16things very well right they allow you to
12:19collect and organize information
12:22and I think the false promise that many
12:25of us believe or have bought into or
12:28whatever is that if you organize
12:29information you will
12:32write better articles you will make more
12:35money you will be happier you will get
12:38all of these benefits from it right
12:41and that one I think is uh a much that
12:45one I think is probably just not true
12:46you know I make this analogy all the
12:48time that 99.9 of the best books ever
12:51written were written on a typewriter or
12:52by hand like if you think that you need
12:55a good writing app to write your book
12:59like it's just not true history this is
13:02not true exactly so it I do think that
13:05there is this big element of uh the
13:09other thing they're delivering is fun
13:10right and we don't kind of like we don't
13:13like to admit that the reason we read
13:15productivity books or watch motivational
13:18YouTubes or stuff is because it's fun
13:19and makes us feel good not because it's
13:21going to produce any uh tangible benefit
13:24in our lives and that's part of what
13:26they're delivering too like it's fun to
13:28organize your stuff right if we think
13:30about things along the spectrum of like
13:33actual utility that these tools are
13:35indeed bringing and then this false
13:37promise and you know maybe everyone and
13:39their own experience with Knowledge
13:40Management fits somewhere along that
13:42Spectrum you know tell me a little bit
13:44more about how you've maybe moved closer
13:46to that Utility side of the spectrum I I
13:49really think the next big utility is
13:51going to be a note-taking tool that
13:55offers custom GPT or whatever embeds as
13:59a service for your knowledge graph I
14:02I've seen people do it Dan shipper has
14:04that great uh project he did where he
14:06put all of Andrew huberman's podcast
14:09transcripts into a GPT embed model and
14:11then you can just query it with anything
14:13you want to know and it feeds you back
14:14huberman's answers from podcasts right
14:17uh theoretically any note-taking app
14:20should be able to offer that as a
14:23service or maybe you pay you know I pay
14:26like a thousand dollars or more for this
14:27right very happily where I could just
14:29say okay here are my notes from it's got
14:32to be like four or 500 books now
14:33thousands of Articles every little like
14:36idea I've written down over the last 10
14:3715 years here's all of it I just want
14:40you to like index it and then as I start
14:43writing just give me a little like
14:46pop-ups along the side or when I ask for
14:47them give me little pop-ups to say oh
14:49you know you had this idea or oh this
14:50idea from this book or this ID from this
14:52article or whatever like these are all
14:53relevant to what you're doing right now
14:56I'm pretty sure we can actually already
14:58do that with the tools that are
14:59available on the market nope yeah
15:00nobody's just created a consumer side
15:02version of it uh and that would be the
15:05point where you I mean that's like
15:09literally a second brain right that's
15:12your previous thoughts and work and
15:14effort being processed by this external
15:17cognitive entity and then fed back to
15:19your like current working mind or
15:22whatever to enhance what you're trying
15:24to do without you having to go look for
15:26it and that would be incredible like
15:29that would be so useful I would use that
15:31non-stop every day if you imagine a tool
15:34like this where an AI can parse your
15:36personalized unstructured data it can be
15:39proactive and it can Surface things as
15:41you need them what do you think this
15:43unlocks the the valuable thing is the
15:46ideas but everybody receives ideas in
15:50different ways and so you know for
15:52example like one thing I realized about
15:54myself at some point is that I have a
15:56very hard time processing auditory
15:59like I don't remember it it just doesn't
16:01really imprint for me but when I read
16:04things they stick with me really really
16:05well and so if I read a book I can
16:09remember a ton from it but if I listen
16:10to an audiobook I don't remember
16:12anything Some people prefer the long
16:13form essay style like some people uh
16:16would prefer a short form video of the
16:18idea right and so if you have an idea
16:22and you can turn it into one of those
16:24forms something that's trained on you
16:27should be able to help you produce those
16:29other forms of your work to help that
16:30idea reach the most people possible and
16:33and we're seeing something else in
16:35tandem with the potential for that which
16:37is uh like platforms aren't really
16:40letting you use them as funnels anymore
16:42like you know early internet marketing
16:45with social media 10 years ago or
16:48whatever like your Facebook and your
16:49Twitter and whatever we're all to drive
16:52traffic back to your site right where
16:54you could get email signups or sales or
16:57and it's way harder to do that now so
16:59you actually want to create native stuff
17:01for each of those platforms for the
17:03people who want to spend time on those
17:04platforms because that's what's going to
17:05get rewarded but now you're like not
17:07creating one article you're trying to
17:09create like 10 assets off of each idea
17:10which is a huge time suck and so it's
17:13interesting to think too like what would
17:15it look like if you had this kind of
17:17like content assistant who you train not
17:21only on all of your writing and stuff
17:22but on your preferred format for short
17:24and long form videos and uh train on
17:27your voice so that you can immediately
17:29create like a podcast from your articles
17:32and all these things so that you can be
17:34this like hyper distributed idea person
17:37that that world is not very far away
17:39it's probably like less than two or
17:41three years out yeah it's hard to
17:42believe that won't be on the horizon all
17:50anywhere it falls flat maybe where it
17:51doesn't especially given that you've
17:53been so present in the space and so yeah
17:56this was really enjoyable and I'm also
17:57looking forward to seeing where this
17:59goes yeah thank you so much for having
18:00me on thank you so much for listening to
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