00:00 i think notebooks are great for ideas
00:02 i think like a well-managed to-do list
00:05 is a software product that you need to
00:07 adopt and there's like 80 of them i
00:09 actually don't even care which one you
00:10 adopt but it's like
00:12 when i like tell something to founders
00:14 and then they write it down in a
00:15 notebook i'm like that's gone forever
00:19 but they look cool they have like a
00:21 fountain pen and they're like taking
00:23 beautiful notes michael we all know that
00:25 everything important is
00:30 this is michael seibel with dalton
00:32 caldwell today we're going to talk about
00:34 how future billionaires get done
00:38 so dalton you were inspired by a pg
00:40 boast when thinking of this idea right
00:43 yeah paul graham wrote this really
00:45 famous blog post um i believe called
00:48 maker schedule manager schedule where
00:52 he said something that all of us had
00:54 thought before but he put it very
00:56 succinctly and in great words and so if
00:58 you haven't read it before anyone out
01:00 there on the internet um you should read
01:01 it just google make your schedule
01:03 manager schedule we can put a link in
01:04 and he introduces the idea of the
01:06 difference between how makers ie
01:08 programmers in his case organize their
01:10 time to be productive versus folks that
01:12 are managers all right and so it's great
01:15 terminology it's good stuff yes
01:17 so let's start with the maker mode
01:20 you were a developer in your startup i
01:21 was a business guy in my startup i think
01:24 in many ways this stuff came a little
01:30 and i had to learn this stuff by like
01:32 basically destroying the productivity of
01:36 how did you think about makers mode as a
01:40 are set up around a manager schedule
01:43 where you have a day packed with meeting
01:45 after meeting and so if you're a
01:47 programmer at a big company you would
01:50 you know you'd have like an hour to
01:51 program here an hour to program there
01:57 this was not conducive to to building
02:00 things okay and so to just walk through
02:03 my perspective of someone that
02:05 you know was programming back in the day
02:06 when i when i was a startup founder
02:09 when you're programming
02:11 the more of the program you can keep in
02:13 your head at any one time
02:16 the the easier it is for you to know
02:18 what's going on and have the context up
02:20 here to make changes and fix bugs and it
02:23 takes like an hour or two
02:26 of looking at a program and figuring
02:28 stuff out for it to get loaded into ram
02:31 and so if you're interrupted
02:34 like if you have to program in hour
02:36 man are you gonna suck
02:39 like you constantly
02:41 have to restart your state every time
02:43 you program and so a great maker
02:45 schedule is something like an eight-hour
02:48 uninterrupted block of time and his
02:50 argument i think he was also
02:52 talking about this from the perspective
02:53 of an artist or a musician like if you
02:55 wanted to record an album or write music
02:56 or if you wanted to write a book the
02:58 same deal if you had to write a book in
02:59 20-minute increments
03:01 i think a lot of writers wouldn't love
03:05 which is so much different than the
03:07 business guy like i you know i was the
03:09 business guy at my startup and
03:11 you certainly can do email
03:13 in 20 minute increments
03:17 and so i remember having this
03:18 conversation with emmett where he said
03:21 michael imagine that i'm doing
03:22 ridiculously complicated word problems
03:25 and you're interrupting me in the middle
03:28 and i was like then it clicked i was
03:30 like oh well i've had to do hard work
03:32 like like i went to school i had to do
03:35 that that's what your day is like
03:38 one that sounds a lot harder than
03:39 writing emails but two
03:42 i would hate to be interrupted like that
03:45 and once he said that it kind of clicked
03:48 um before he said that i just assumed
03:50 well you know he's typing on typing yeah
03:55 and and i remember i remember when i
03:57 read the post what resonated with me is
03:58 i felt like my work day really began
04:01 around five or six pm isn't that weird
04:04 and that's because what that's when
04:05 things would quiet down and i would stop
04:07 getting email and the building i was
04:09 working out of would quiet down and
04:10 that's where actually all the good
04:12 programming happened was at the end of
04:14 what was interesting was that
04:18 we basically had to figure out how to
04:19 build that in i think in the beginning
04:22 organically it happened because you know
04:23 that was our sleep cycle we were all
04:24 living in an apartment together but when
04:26 we had more employees we had an office
04:28 you know we literally and this is
04:30 something that i just noticed happened
04:31 organically nothing got done before
04:34 like getting to work was all about like
04:37 getting in answering your email doing a
04:39 couple meetings like it was just like
04:41 no one who was writing code even wanted
04:43 to start writing code before lunch
04:45 because lunch was the big like fu in the
04:49 and our whole trick was
04:50 one how do we not serve a lunch makes
04:52 everyone go to sleep
04:54 and two how do we make that post lunch
05:02 designed yc a little bit that way right
05:05 i think that's counterintuitive to a lot
05:06 of founders like one
05:08 there aren't that many events you don't
05:10 have classes all day at yc like you know
05:13 we try to take as little time as
05:14 possible during your week so you can
05:17 two there's a hard deadline
05:21 and three i think people are often
05:25 a good portion of yc is just asking you
05:27 what are you going to accomplish by demo
05:29 and then asking you every week well did
05:32 yep and it's you confronting the yes or
05:37 it turns out that like
05:39 there's a lot of magic on that and he
05:41 wanted to build as much maker time as
05:42 possible in the program i think in this
05:44 kind of balance between maker mode and
05:48 what people should be trying to do is
05:51 maximize their productivity when they're
05:55 right how do you maximize productivity
05:57 so when i think about manager mode for
05:59 me i always like to think about this
06:02 okay if i'm going to be managing my time
06:04 between my to-do list which is
06:06 just another way of saying that's
06:08 actually important to get done
06:15 i always think that my to-do list comes
06:18 first like whenever i'm being productive
06:20 i start at the to-do list
06:22 and i do everything there and then i
06:24 check those things whenever i control it
06:27 yes versus if it's inbox driven
06:30 other people are in control of your time
06:34 horrible the second thing is around
06:37 meetings and like we talk about this a
06:38 lot like you're gonna have to have some
06:43 i've seen a couple tricks but they can
06:46 all be reduced down to write down
06:49 the worst thing is when you have to have
06:50 another meeting because people didn't
06:52 write the down from the first
06:55 like like that is like when you know
06:58 you've punched yourself in the
07:00 face but like i'm so shocked it's like
07:03 no one again let me push you on that
07:04 because you and i agree but let me let
07:06 me let's make this clear the audience
07:07 what are we saying what we mean is say
07:09 you and i are an immediate we agree on
07:11 if narus writes it down it's like it
07:17 we were like patting ourselves on the
07:18 back what a great meeting right michael
07:20 no one writes it down we're like what do
07:23 even if i didn't think i needed it
07:26 oh let's write down the agenda oh let's
07:28 write our notes where we decided uh
07:31 that would be great any other things
07:33 that have made you productive as a
07:34 manager the number one thing
07:36 that i do that i realize that a lot of
07:38 the other successful founders did too
07:42 had my analytics dashboard or whatever
07:44 was important kpis on the business up on
07:46 my screen 24 7 and i would stare at it
07:49 all the time and i actually could
07:52 i even this is even the case for yc man
07:54 i don't even know if you know this but
07:55 like a lot of our internal stats i have
07:59 and it's because i stare at them all the
08:01 time and no one told me to do that this
08:05 but i'm like obsessed
08:07 with like the internal key kpis for
08:10 anything i'm working on i'm just like an
08:12 addict to look at that stuff
08:14 i think that that is such what we see on
08:17 the other side and i completely agree
08:18 with you that was a huge thing
08:20 especially for my second startup that
08:21 was a really huge thing
08:22 it's funny when you talk to a founder
08:25 who knows their stats well
08:27 they just talk about their stats so
08:29 differently you know like
08:31 man like the first of all they don't
08:32 round off numbers to the nearest like
08:36 but second of all they know whether
08:38 they're up or down 10 percent at like at
08:40 any given time like at any given time
08:43 whereas other founders is like yeah i
08:45 think it was an up week but
08:47 it's like how do you not know
08:49 how do you not know if your revenue like
08:51 went up this week like
08:54 what are you what are you doing yeah no
08:56 i i don't get it i don't get when
08:58 someone is like operating a business and
09:00 it's like what was i do we what was our
09:04 but but like keeper they they give that
09:06 to me at the end of the month and it's
09:10 or people didn't know i mean for us it
09:12 was you know daus and it was like amount
09:14 of video watched but it's like
09:18 on the founding team knew when we had
09:20 less traffic today than yesterday
09:23 everyone right like just just like in
09:26 like in their bones like
09:30 oh i i think my last point on this
09:32 manager schedule the thing i would just
09:33 add is what i've learned that i did not
09:35 appreciate when i was a founder
09:38 the maker schedule vibe works for sales
09:41 and talking to customers too
09:43 and scheduling 20 minute blocks to talk
09:47 is not the same as an eight-hour
09:50 like even if it's not literally your
09:53 using the maker's concept to apply to
09:55 the things that are the main event of
09:57 your startup at any one time and for
09:58 many folks that is sales yes yeah you
10:00 should be scheduling eight-hour blocks
10:02 like if you're if you're if your job is
10:04 the co-founder is to be doing sales
10:07 and it's like a couple of slivers in
10:09 between other things on your schedule
10:11 i don't think that's gonna go well
10:13 you know right it's interesting i agree
10:15 with you it's basically this idea of get
10:18 all of this stupid crap
10:20 so productive that you can clear out
10:22 that every founder can clear out a chunk
10:24 of their time for the make your schedule
10:26 and like some founders gonna have to do
10:30 non-development blocking tackling others
10:31 are gonna have to do less of it but
10:34 i completely agree with you like it's
10:35 really hard to get anything at a high
10:37 level done in 20 minute blocks
10:40 let's talk though about the opposite of
10:41 all these things right so
10:43 you know the premise of this chat is how
10:46 future billionaires get done
10:49 let's talk about what we see
10:51 great founders not do
10:54 what comes to mind dalton
10:57 what are founders avoiding look i think
10:59 the trickiest thing for everybody
11:02 is social media it's like a social media
11:04 is the black hole for time yes and you
11:07 know we're all guilty of it too like
11:09 it's addictive and so what's tricky
11:13 is how to have a healthy relationship
11:16 so that you aren't spending 24 7 paying
11:19 attention to who the main character on
11:22 twitter is that said something dumb and
11:23 everyone's like making fun of them it's
11:25 so hard not to do that constantly and
11:28 it's also not hard to think that like
11:30 you are a startup founder and you're
11:32 succeeding and you like did well
11:35 but if i actually if like a like a
11:37 hidden camera was shadowing you through
11:39 the day it was like you just read
11:43 you know what i'm saying like imagine if
11:44 there was like a hidden camera auditing
11:47 what people actually did with a lot of
11:49 i think some people out there would be
11:50 pretty embarrassed if there was a full
11:53 clear-eyed accounting of where their
11:55 time went so okay discord
11:58 techcrunch here twitter here you know
12:01 it's like how much time are you actually
12:02 spending on not those things
12:05 you know it's hard man i had a twitter
12:08 and you know one of the things that i
12:15 sometimes willpower isn't enough you
12:17 know like what i did was i follow
12:19 unfollowed everyone on twitter
12:21 and then i installed this like chrome
12:23 app that basically disables like three
12:25 quarters of twitter's features
12:27 and i was just you know it was like this
12:29 is an addictive thing i need an
12:32 and that did it like that kind of killed
12:35 my twitter because it was just like oh
12:36 well and it was funny because for a
12:38 while twitter kept on trying to feed me
12:40 interesting articles and interesting
12:43 they couldn't really do it because i was
12:44 not following anyone i wasn't really
12:46 interacting with many tweets and so
12:47 eventually just like
12:50 it broke but yeah i mean i i uninstalled
12:53 facebook years ago so i don't have it i
12:55 don't have notification turns on i don't
12:56 have the twitter app installed on my
13:00 everyone should do what works for them
13:05 people that actually are super
13:07 do abnormal things to turn all this crap
13:10 off yeah isn't that like you have to
13:12 aggressively be abnormal
13:15 on protecting your time yes because if
13:18 you don't the world is going to steal
13:21 your time from you it's going to steal
13:23 your energy from you
13:26 that's a bad trade-off if you're a
13:28 startup founder man yeah what a waste of
13:31 you know it's funny it's like it's
13:33 almost like these two sets of tools
13:35 there's one set of tools
13:37 that allow you to organize your time
13:39 better and there's another set of tools
13:40 that protect your time and
13:42 yeah effective people use both
13:44 constantly and i think ineffective
13:47 people sometimes are mistaken and they
13:52 if i were just had a stronger will i
13:54 like needing tools is the problem
13:57 like successful people are just have a
14:00 stronger will and that's like not true
14:02 it's like no success people reach for
14:04 like successful people recognize their
14:06 weaknesses and actually reach for tools
14:09 now here's the one that comes up a lot
14:13 mentors advisors weird credentials like
14:19 advice oh i went through
14:21 three different accelerators and an idea
14:23 lab oh my advisory board i'm building my
14:27 why do you think founders are attracted
14:28 to that versus just building something
14:30 and launching it it smells like you're
14:32 doing successful startup stuff you're
14:34 like part of the community of startup
14:37 this and you know like there's all this
14:38 stuff you can do and
14:40 i'm not saying like it's all bad but
14:43 it's a bottomless pit of time suck like
14:45 you could go so far deep in there
14:48 you could be in that bottomless pit for
14:51 and be a startup founder that's never
14:53 built a product and has never gotten a
14:54 single customer because you just cycled
14:56 in and out of various forms of startup
14:59 it's weird it's like going to hollywood
15:02 and getting acting lessons
15:04 yes and like you just you you're in like
15:06 this acting lessons mode for like years
15:09 and you're like yeah i'm an actor and
15:11 it's like you know what i'm saying like
15:12 it feels like you're making progress
15:14 right but you're not
15:16 you know i think a lot of it also has to
15:18 do with founders being a little bit
15:19 afraid and thinking these things do risk
15:22 well if i have an advisory board it's
15:24 going to de-risk my startup it's a bunch
15:25 of smart people saying my idea is good
15:27 or if i do a bunch of mentorship it
15:29 de-risks my startup i get a lot of
15:33 i don't know the thing we keep on saying
15:35 over and over again is like the two
15:38 ridiculously de-risk your startup three
15:41 things and we'll get to the third one
15:42 the second first one's talking your
15:44 customers the second one is building a
15:45 launching product like and it's like god
15:48 forbid you're doing anything
15:50 more than you're doing those things you
15:52 are not taking the optimal de-risk
15:56 um and then the last one
15:58 we see a lot of people trying to hedge
16:00 so many people trying to be like well
16:03 i'm keeping grad school open
16:05 i've got a google job offer i've got a
16:08 jane street or whatever the new
16:13 and i'm talking to three friends about
16:17 and like i'm kind of moving all those
16:19 pieces down the board at the same time
16:22 and like we get asked questions like
16:25 okay so how do i optimize this i'm like
16:26 i don't i don't think you can be great
16:28 at those four things at the same time
16:31 like it's hard enough to be great at one
16:35 but like once again like why should i
16:37 have like why shouldn't i hedge delton
16:39 like isn't the optimal move to hedge
16:40 like how do i know making the right
16:45 when you're taking a high risk
16:50 a lot you know like we said again like
16:52 we said on these this video series never
16:54 times you're going to look stupid and
16:56 you're going to take risk and there's a
16:58 you're going to be like that was a huge
17:01 you want to like barter with the
17:03 universe you wanna you wanna be like
17:08 do you risk this like you wanna think
17:09 that you can be smarter than the system
17:11 to somehow give up nothing and have no
17:14 downside and only have upside
17:18 yeah the more you want to try to barter
17:20 with the universe to be like okay first
17:22 i'll get a job at google and i'll save
17:23 money and then i'll do you know i'll
17:25 invest in crypto and then i'll do like
17:27 you want to like barter with the
17:29 universe to have no risk
17:33 i get where i feel i get where people
17:35 are coming from i just i'm not sure
17:36 that's a real thing and i think it's
17:39 being more real with yourself is like
17:40 yeah i'm taking risks like yeah quitting
17:42 my job at google is a risk and this i
17:46 but i may not and but i'm doing this
17:49 with eyes wide open
17:50 and by actually putting my full heart
17:53 into anything i do whatever that is
17:54 including not quitting my job
17:57 that's how can you have regrets about
17:59 that being proud of the work you do i
18:01 mean this is what i tell a lot of folks
18:02 i do a lot of office hours of people
18:03 that are shutting down i did one today
18:05 you know it's like their final office
18:06 hours because they're showing another
18:07 startup but i i tend to tell people
18:08 similar stuff which is like look
18:11 if you're proud of the job you did
18:13 you know if you if you had a heart and
18:15 you gave it your all
18:16 and you feel like you learned stuff then
18:19 great job and you should view this as an
18:21 affirmative experience you didn't and so
18:24 like i'm proud of you i'm proud of the
18:26 job you did i know you had your heart
18:27 into this thing and like
18:29 we'll get the next one
18:31 you know i think that that message has
18:36 but founders have to be kind of reminded
18:39 that they didn't fail like it's not like
18:43 or let's just put it this way it's not
18:45 like failing a test that like uh a basic
18:47 math test that you just didn't study for
18:49 it's like it's not like that like
18:51 you tried to do something that so few
18:53 people in the world are successful at
18:55 failing is not really failing
19:01 it's like trying to be a pro athlete
19:02 like you're really good in college you
19:04 try to go pro and you like make a team
19:05 and then you get cut in the first year
19:07 like that's still pretty awesome yeah
19:09 you still were really one of the best
19:11 thousand people on earth who could play
19:14 yeah and so it's like
19:16 you know again it would be great if you
19:17 were number one in the world but like
19:19 people are gonna respect what you did
19:21 and you and if you if you're if you're
19:23 proud in your heart of the work you did
19:26 then you will view this as a positive
19:27 thing in your life you know
19:30 and i always tell the people who are
19:31 hedging i always say this the other side
19:34 you know in our world it's really
19:35 competitive and what happens if there's
19:37 a team that's exactly
19:39 as competent as you
19:41 and they're not hedging
19:43 they're always going to win
19:45 you know they're always going to beat
19:46 you so how much better do you have to be
19:51 if you're splitting your resources two
19:53 ways three ways four ways like
19:55 so it's not even a good strategy even if
19:58 you were trying to think strategically
19:59 unfortunately no um
20:04 those are some of the things that future
20:07 billionaires do to get done and
20:09 some of the things that they avoid as
20:13 sounds good thanks man