00:00I deeply believe that most Innovation
00:02comes from the edges it's not just about
00:04sort of you know fighting over how a
00:07technology is built right it's
00:08fundamentally like do we have an
00:09Internet that creates incentives for
00:12entrepreneurs for Creative people what
00:14is the society we want what are the
00:15incentives we want do we want human
00:17creativity to still flourish I think of
00:19it as very analogous to the arguments
00:20for open source software the policy
00:22should be things that encourage
00:23entrepreneurship creativity Innovation
00:25at the edges not five big companies that
00:28control everything what kind of Internet
00:40want hello and welcome to the mark and
00:43Ben show today we have a special guest
00:45Chris Dixon who has written a new book
00:48called read write own and uh it's an
00:52extremely exciting book for us because
00:54it's the first book that really explains
00:56the very interesting and complex field
00:58of crypto and block blockchains
01:02comprehensively letting us understand
01:04why they're important what they're going
01:05to be used for and how they're going to
01:07change all of our Lives um so with that
01:11I welcome Chris thanks for having me all
01:13right great so Chris read write own um
01:16the title is very interesting because
01:18it's not just the title of the book but
01:19it's really a short description of a
01:23philosophy of networking technology and
01:26economics and how they work together and
01:29how they evolved over time so maybe you
01:31could tell us a little bit about like
01:33what does read write own mean and how
01:36does it relate to the evolution of the
01:38the internet technologically and
01:41economically so what I want to do with
01:43the book so I I you know I've spent
01:45years talking about this topic and in in
01:48those conversations realized that um
01:51some of the sort of background context
01:53was missing um and you know I I
01:56generally am of the school of thought
01:57that most business books don't need to
01:59be books it could be blog posts or
02:01podcasts or tweet in this case I felt or
02:04Tweets in this case I felt strongly that
02:06just the the kind of minimum time you
02:08know kind of space you could explain
02:10these Concepts was a book length so 200
02:12Pages or so um and specifically I wanted
02:14to kind of go back to First principles
02:17and um discuss sort of how power and
02:21money works on the internet which is
02:23really what the first half of the book
02:24is right and it's going through and it
02:26does it as as the title alludes to the
02:28title is referring to kind of the three
02:29hisorical eras as I view it of the
02:31internet um and so the book kind of goes
02:34it starts with the um you which you guys
02:37create you know we're huge part in
02:38creating the kind of first era the
02:40commercial era of the internet starting
02:42with Netscape we really love that era by
02:44the way I know I know you got I'm I'm
02:47speaking to the people who invented a
02:48lot of this stuff so I think you know a
02:50lot of this stuff but um but what I
02:51learned in the conversations with folks
02:53is a lot of people didn't have that
02:54background and so specifically um the
02:56the idea that sort of the P power on the
02:58internet comes through Network effects
03:00this is sort of the unit of power you
03:02build a service like a social network or
03:04the worldwide web or email and these
03:06have Network effects and network in in
03:07the sort of offline World typically you
03:10know Moes as Warren Buffett calls them
03:13come through economies of scale and
03:15scope and more traditional kind of
03:17economic modes on the Internet it's most
03:19the mo the main Moe that matters is
03:20Network effects and so what you do is if
03:23you're an entrepreneur or an investor as
03:25we have been for the last you know 20
03:27plus years is you try to either build or
03:30invest in networks right and and up
03:32until blockchains we had two primary
03:35ways to build networks we had one which
03:37was the the original approach of the web
03:40and email which is via a protocol right
03:43so you a protocol is a set of Standards
03:46adopted by a community and the important
03:48feature is that it has a network effect
03:50email gets more valuable as more people
03:52use it but that Network effect doesn't
03:53ACR to a single company right it acrs to
03:55the community and so and there's still
03:58rooms for for-profit businesses
03:59obviously as we've seen on the web you
04:01know millions of of successful
04:03businesses are built on the web but
04:05those businesses don't compete you know
04:07they they they generally don't they
04:08don't compete by capturing the web's
04:09Network effects they compete by building
04:11better Services right right right the
04:13web the web captures captures the web's
04:15Network effects that's right the the the
04:17the network effect you always have a
04:18network effect but it's a question of
04:20where it acrs does it ACR to a community
04:21or to a company right um and so in the
04:23first year of the internet um you know
04:25it was dominated by these open protocols
04:27and then and then you know and then and
04:29and I and the reason I call it the reier
04:31this is not my terminology this is a
04:33common way to describe it is that most
04:35of the applications built in the 90s
04:36were were kind of around democratizing
04:39the consumption of information so you
04:40know the kind of killer app of the 90s
04:42was a search engine you type Abraham
04:44Lincoln into Google and you get a page
04:46about Abraham Lincoln and that was this
04:47miraculous thing but a lot of the
04:50applications were kind of skoric as we
04:52call them which meaning took and this
04:54happens with all new forms of media it
04:56sort of poured it over old old behaviors
04:59from from magazines and brochures and
05:01encyclopedias and ported them to the
05:03internet the newspapers some of they
05:06still are to some extent were formatted
05:08exactly like newspapers
05:10oner I think the W Journal is still
05:13pretty much that way as is the New York
05:15yeah no they have and and and if you go
05:17back and look at those websites to
05:18collect like 90s internet you know it
05:20was very much kind of magazines
05:22brochures kind of displaying I mean they
05:24had you know fun fun little spinning
05:26graphics and stuff but for the most part
05:27it was you know people hadn't really
05:29explored the the fact that the internet
05:31was now a multi-way medium right and
05:34then in the sort of so-called rewrite
05:35era in the 2000s also called Web 2 era
05:38um people started you know you had a
05:40couple things happen Broadband
05:41penetration started to hit a kind of
05:43critical mass and then you had a wave of
05:46entrepreneurs who were saying you this
05:47is Zuckerberg Jack dorsy all of the kind
05:50of services that we use today who were
05:52saying what you know have we really
05:54explored the the full potential of this
05:56medium and and specifically they wanted
05:58to explore the idea that it could not
05:59only only democratize the consumption of
06:01information but also the publishing of
06:03information and that was the web 2
06:05movement and the web so my my kind of
06:06core argument though is in that process
06:08and that was generally a very positive
06:10thing we now have five billion people
06:11with supercomputers in their pockets who
06:13you know can share information and
06:15consume information costs $10 to get a
06:17smartphone I think there's more internet
06:20users than than have access to running
06:22water I mean it's a miracle in many ways
06:25so you know I don't want that to get
06:26overshadowed in the discussion it's a
06:28very positive thing but was kind of a
06:30fyan bargain in that 2000s era which is
06:33in order to get that advanced
06:34functionality we handed over control to
06:37a new new type of Internet service where
06:39the network effects were controlled by a
06:41company right and so that's what you
06:42have with all of these modern internet
06:44services and that and then and then I
06:45think specifically you had kind of a
06:47horse race for those who were really in
06:48the weeds back then there were there
06:50were things like RSS which is a open
06:53protocol for doing social networking
06:55which in the mid-2000s seemed like a
06:56credible competitor to some of the
06:58proprietary social networks of course
06:59that lost um uh you know it's still
07:02around but it's you know most people you
07:04talk to on the street don't say they use
07:06RSS as their social media although one
07:09of the critiques of my book so far has
07:10been that RSS is actually very
07:15it's not not successful at its original
07:17Vision at all yeah I mean it's used look
07:20http2 they're used as transport layers
07:22in some cases but they're not you know
07:24they're not the that you you don't ask
07:26an average person how you get your
07:28social media and they say RSS right they
07:30go through a a company and so anyway so
07:33that kind of LED my argument is that led
07:35to the current state today where you
07:36have a small number of companies who
07:38through these these Network effects have
07:41now Consolidated power right um so in
07:45that context so what are blockchains
07:46blockchains are they basically my core
07:48argument in the second half of the book
07:49is they provide a new way to create
07:51networks um a new way to create internet
07:53services and specifically they they're
07:55kind of The Best of Both Worlds of the
07:57prior two ways to build networks they
07:59combine a lot of the societal benefits
08:01of protocol Network so you have an
08:02incentive to build on the edges if you
08:04build a business or you build an
08:06audience as a Creator you own that
08:08business you own that audience you have
08:09full control of it um the economics are
08:12much more favorable to the network
08:13participants so there's a whole ser and
08:15I have a series of chapters that go
08:16through the economics and the what's
08:18called composability which is the
08:19ability to build services on top of
08:21other services the way you do with open
08:23source software um I go through kind of
08:25network governance and I go through a
08:26lot of specific benefits of blockchains
08:27but basically the core argument is it's
08:29the of Both Worlds you get the societal
08:30benefits of protocol networks but a lot
08:32of the advanced functionality that
08:34people have come to expect from from
08:36what I call corporate networks that that
08:37both lets you do again sort of skoric
08:41native it lets you build existing
08:43networks like social networks and
08:45existing applications in a in a better
08:47way I argue but also unlocks a whole new
08:49class of new applications that couldn't
08:51have been built before and the last sort
08:53of third of the book I go through seven
08:56areas Finance social media AI I couple
09:00of two sections on AI um uh some one on
09:05like kind of media and nfts and another
09:07one on called collaborative storytelling
09:09and just kind of go through specific
09:10applications some of which are kind of
09:11skoric they're doing old things better
09:13and some of them are brand new things
09:15you couldn't do before the last point
09:17I'll make is on AI obviously we're all
09:19very excited about Ai and the firm's
09:20investing very heavily and I think it's
09:22a very positive technology and will'll
09:24have all sorts of benefits um I do think
09:27that that without a counterbalance ing
09:29force it will tend to be a centralizing
09:32technology um in that it will kind of
09:35reward companies with large amounts of
09:37data and capital um and I I argue that
09:41this makes the need for blockchainbased
09:44networks kind of more urgent because
09:47it's an important uh kind of
09:48counterbalancing force to offset that
09:50that centralizing power so Chris so
09:52Peter teal has the famous line uh sort
09:55of theory that he's been saying for the
09:56last several years which is um uh
09:59AI is inherently communist and
10:02blockchain is inherently libertarian and
10:03it's sort of based in this idea that and
10:06say as uh you know CCP loves Chinese
10:08Communist Party loves AI hates hates
10:10crypto um that sort of AI will lend
10:13itself extremely well to centralized
10:15power and and you know today the the
10:16strong form of this argument would be
10:17today you see this with you know
10:19everything up to it including you know
10:20Sam mman going out to raise $7 trillion
10:22dollars to build you know sort of
10:23proprietary chip Fabs um but you know
10:25the the to build the big models build
10:27big models is you know now it's in the
10:28billions of dollars and maybe heading
10:29into the trillions of dollars and then
10:31you know blockchain at least has
10:32historically had a lot of affinity uh
10:34from the sort of Li you know sort of
10:35tech libertarian you know kind of
10:37community and has had this sort of
10:38Promise of decentralization um do you
10:41think Peter's framing is is would you
10:43make an argument as as as director Peter
10:45does there or what what would your
10:46version of that be yeah that's
10:47interesting I mean I I mean like my
10:49default answer and this is sort of what
10:50I argue in the book is is blockchains
10:52decentralizing um AI is centralizing so
10:55it's a it's sort of a less political
10:57less political spin on the same idea I
10:59think I don't know it's an interesting
11:01question like I do think that there's
11:02some truth to the fact that culturally
11:05today um you know like you could you
11:08could separate the essence of the
11:09technology from who happens to be
11:11excited about it today right and the I
11:13would argue the essence of blockchain is
11:15more about shifting power to the network
11:17participants and that could you could do
11:19a spin on that that's kind of more
11:21left-wing collectivist like you think
11:23about a dow and if you had all the
11:25artists in the world get together and
11:26share their art and collectively bargain
11:29with AI systems as to the licensing
11:32rights of their you know almost like
11:34unionize you can use a blockchain to
11:35unionize like that that would obviously
11:37have a leftwing spin Bitcoin obviously
11:39has more of a you know kind of the
11:41anti-government right-wing spin so so I
11:43I kind of would decouple the essence of
11:45the technology from the specific
11:47implementations of it um I would also
11:50argue this is why it's kind of a shame
11:52that it's that if we're going to get
11:53into politics here why you know the it's
11:56a shame that that a lot of that some
11:58folks F on the left have decided they
12:00hate blockchains because they're
12:02basically opting out of participating in
12:04this world um when they could be
12:07contributing to it and and sort of
12:09nudging it in the direction they want
12:10instead they're just sort of saying it's
12:12the bad guy and I think that has a
12:15polarizing effect um and it tends to you
12:18know kind of politicize something that I
12:20would argue doesn't need to be as
12:21political but yeah I I've got the answer
12:24Mark so AI is what communism
12:29actually is a massive concentration of
12:31power and blockchain is what communism
12:34is advertised to be which is power to
12:36the people so they're both
12:39leftwing just depends which left Wingers
12:41you're talking to well the other angle
12:43on this that's a little bit less partis
12:45and maybe more philosophical the other
12:46angle is um a AI you know at least in
12:49theory AI represents Central planning
12:50right in other words like if if you were
12:52going to build a machine to try to
12:53essentially plan the economy it would be
12:54a large scale AI system um and in fact
12:57the the the Soviets the USSR actually
12:59had that as a mission for a very long
13:00time um in various other communist
13:02regimes there was always this kind of
13:03idea there's actually a book on this uh
13:05from a from a from a modern communist um
13:08uh called uh fully luxur fully automated
13:10luxury communism um right which is sort
13:13of this idea that if you have smart
13:15enough machines in the center of the
13:16economy they can plan everything um and
13:18sort of realize the Communist dream and
13:20then correspondingly you could say that
13:22blockchain's right are economic you an
13:24economic freedom economic Liberation
13:25argument um which is you know sort of
13:27the fullest expression of market economy
13:29you know would be would be would be
13:31giant blockchains um because it would be
13:32truly decentralized and then and then
13:34philosophically that would be in line
13:35with haek or or misus um in sort of
13:38saying that actually no economic
13:39economic activity should be coordinated
13:41Bottoms Up in an peer-to-peer
13:43fashion yeah I always thought the best
13:45haek argument was that that no that no
13:47Central planning would ever be good as a
13:50distributed price signal economy right
13:52at figuring out what goods you need and
13:55I guess what you're saying is maybe if
13:57the AI is good enough the central
13:59planners can get can be be as good as
14:02the decentralized price signals well
14:05that's the argument so that's the
14:06argument the mo no by the way that's the
14:08argument the commies made if you go back
14:10through the history of Communism that's
14:11the argument they were always making
14:12which is we were we're always on the
14:13verge of a breakthrough in centralized
14:15economic Administration and you know
14:17it's going to be the Mainframe computer
14:18it's going to be the PC um it's going to
14:21be you know there was a documentary
14:22years ago that interviewed the guy who
14:24ran uh Gau plan which was the central
14:26Soviet planning agency in the in the
14:29um and you know it interviews this poor
14:30guy in his office and his office is just
14:32like covered with you know just like
14:34it's just a blizzard of paper because
14:36he's like trying to plan the entire
14:37Soviet economy including like pricing
14:39out toilet paper jeans shoes yeah milk
14:43everything everything and production
14:45orders for all of those things and
14:46trying to balance it and this guy by the
14:47way this guy looked frazzled right this
14:48guy is like not you know that actual job
14:51actually is like fairly stressful
14:52apparently um because like when you get
14:54it wrong people St to death um and so
14:57but in in the documentary uh it was like
14:58like an 85 or something and he had just
15:00gotten a PC in his office for the first
15:01time and he had a stack of floppy discs
15:03and he was very excited because he's
15:05like you see all this paper I can put it
15:06on these floppy discs and now and now
15:08I'm finally gonna be able to do this job
15:10right so so there's there's this long
15:12running you know the dream and yeah you
15:14might say yeah giant AI you know giant
15:15llm can do all this I mean the counter
15:17argument Chris your point the hyek
15:19argument would be you know no look even
15:21if a computer can deal with you know
15:22analyze lots of details the the 8
15:24billion or 10 billion people where
15:26you're trying to model all of their
15:27preferences and needs and wants and
15:29productive abilities and coordination
15:30and so forth the problem is like even if
15:31you know what they what they all want to
15:33need right now um their preferences are
15:35all shifting over time um and so you you
15:38not you not only need to understand the
15:40current state you need to be able to
15:41flexibly adapt and and without a price
15:43system you you you can't do that and you
15:45can't have a price system if you in a
15:46central planning environment you have to
15:48have you have to have decentralization
15:49for that so you you have to have
15:50decentralized economics and I you know
15:52obviously that you know that that's what
15:54I believe but that's that's the
15:55strongest form of this I guess the
15:56counterargument would be if you have
15:57enough you know they're searching and
15:59and doing social networking all day and
16:01you have enough data maybe you can
16:03outsmart them and know their preferences
16:06better than they do or if you just go
16:08full Wall-E and you just like plug
16:09everybody into a pod with a VR headset
16:11um and a and a and a in a feet of
16:13nutrition drink um and maybe some heroin
16:16ontap then you you really reduce the the
16:17preference need but anyway all right so
16:20we'll finally try real communism real
16:22communism requires Ai and we'll finally
16:25well and or we'll try full you know real
16:26market economies well because we'll have
16:28we'll have distributed Financial systems
16:30uh through blockchains that for the
16:31first time can actually be like an
16:32actual full decentralized economy so one
16:34of the things let's get into the
16:35economics a little bit because it's I
16:37think one of the things that's really
16:39striking um to me that you point out in
16:41the book is that when you have these
16:44Network effects ACW to companies um they
16:47do things that are you know I think most
16:51people you know when you take a step
16:53back and look at it are unbelievably
16:56exploitive in terms of of take rates so
17:00kind of a take rate in a competitive
17:01market versus a take rate in a kind of
17:05network effect concentration of power
17:08web 2 World um just turn out to be very
17:11different so maybe you could take us
17:13through that and how that works yeah so
17:15take rates just so folks know is is in
17:18an internet service or network it's the
17:20percentage of Revenue that goes to the
17:21operator the network so the in the case
17:23of these corporate networks the
17:25corporate owner um so think of it almost
17:27like a toll that's charged um and so for
17:29example credit cards charge something on
17:31the order of Two and a half% although a
17:33lot of that's given back in rewards to
17:36Consumers um Apple charges 30% for the
17:40right to just simply distribute your app
17:42basically yeah yeah um uh social
17:46networks outside of YouTube take all the
17:49take all the money so they make about
17:50150 billion last year in revenue and uh
17:53through advertising and other and other
17:55um business models and they take you
17:57know the vast majority of that um it's
17:59sort of opa it's sort of hidden from
18:01users so they don't see it directly
18:02because they don't see the money flowing
18:04um but but you see it in the results
18:07which is if you talk to a Tik Tok
18:08influencer or something they're always
18:10doing these kind of gymnastics to figure
18:11out how to make money you know they're
18:13selling stuff sponsorships or stuff in
18:15the offline world because they can't
18:16make it directly the way they would on
18:18the web or email where you have a direct
18:19relationship and that by the way web and
18:21email which are these open protocols
18:22there's no take rate there's no one in
18:23the middle um and that's a very
18:25important kind of economic consequence
18:26so yeah one thing I want to do in the
18:28book is you know you hear these words
18:29like decentralization I I try to almost
18:31avoid that that word in the book and a
18:33lot of tech jargon and really dig into
18:35the detail so like when we say
18:36decentralization that can mean
18:37decentralization of software production
18:39it can mean decentralization of
18:40economics and so when I talk about
18:42that's one sort of choice I made in the
18:44book was to really sort of say like
18:45let's get specific and like how does the
18:47money flow and that's the that's the
18:48idea with take rates and so what
18:50essentially means though the effect of
18:52it is a in a blockchain and then I have
18:54a whole argument in the book as to why
18:55blockchain is basically the design of
18:57the blockchain constrains the take rate
19:00um and that there's a bunch of reasons
19:01why including the fact that with a
19:03blockchain the designer of the network
19:05is forced to commit UPF front to the
19:06take rates and then can't change them
19:08and that creates a competitive Dynamic
19:11where people can sort of shop around and
19:12empirically I have a few charts in the
19:14book like the take rates in for example
19:16ethereum is sub 1% and all the kind of
19:19common blockchain networks are very very
19:20low empirically as well um and so um and
19:25and and so that's very important from a
19:27you know from like if you build a social
19:29network like we're investors in one
19:30called farcaster which is an emerging
19:32social network where you know it for the
19:35end user it feels like a kind of a tra
19:37like a typical social network like
19:38Twitter um but a very important
19:40difference is if you build an audience
19:42there and you want to you know put up
19:44advertising or sell them a subscription
19:46or do whatever you want you get the
19:48money you get all the money right and
19:49that's just a dramatic shift that's
19:51really like $150 billion dollar a year
19:54in current social networking Revenue
19:55that you sort of like I think if it like
19:57a train track you can reroute it back to
19:59the users um in a lot of ways the
20:01economic argument is s like I think a
20:03lot of people focus on things like
20:04Shadow Banning and like these sort of
20:05obvious effects of having a centralized
20:07operator like Elon Musk bu Twitter now
20:10you know the rules have changed around
20:11freedom of speech and who gets banned
20:14but really the economic effects in my
20:16mind are some of the most consequential
20:18it's also what creates the opportunity
20:19because I think you know a lot of
20:21historically a lot of opportunities for
20:24new businesses on the internet have been
20:25ones where you take an existing high
20:27margin business you know your your
20:29margin is my opportunity Jeff Bezos
20:31would say um in the same way like your
20:33your take rate is my opportunity um that
20:35you the fact that you can this is also
20:37what makes me bullish on these networks
20:39succeeding is if you can go to these
20:40creative people and say hey do you want
20:42all the money instead of none of the
20:43money like that's a that's a pretty
20:44that's a pretty powerful
20:47proposition um and so um so I think
20:50there's a lot of pent-up energy there
20:51for better models and people are just
20:54kind of used to this existing system um
20:56but when they see real alternatives
20:58which I'm hoping that that they'll see
21:00in the near future um they'll realize
21:02that that that's a really compell
21:03because the other things like governance
21:05are subtler right like are you really
21:07gonna switch your business over as a
21:09Creator because they have better
21:10governance rules or it's it's it's
21:13subtler and more Nuance whereas money is
21:15very straightforward right it's like you
21:17you're just can have a much better
21:18business yeah there there's also a kind
21:20of Freedom ownership uh aspect to it
21:23which kind of is is very reminiscent of
21:25web 1.0 where like in the early days of
21:28the internet if I was building a
21:29business you know I put up a website
21:32that's my website it's not like any
21:35company's website they can't take it
21:36from me they can't set roles on me they
21:38can't you know herang me and then it's
21:41all my money um whereas you know now if
21:46I've got my social media account I don't
21:49really own anything in fact like if I
21:51upload a photo to Instagram or whatever
21:58they own that photo now it's no longer
22:00mine the handle my name is not my name
22:03my followers are not my followers
22:05they're all owned by the corporation um
22:08how does that like so how does that
22:10change with something like forecaster
22:12how does it work in web 3 world yeah I
22:15mean the key idea in something like
22:16forecaster is that just like with the
22:18original web you own your identity and
22:20that that identity is typically this is
22:22where a blockchain comes in is you're
22:23you you own it on a blockchain so think
22:25of it's something like an nft where it's
22:26a digital object that you own and you
22:28also own your audience you own your
22:30follower list and so what that means in
22:31practice is if the software provider
22:34does something you don't like like tries
22:36to remove you from the network tweaks
22:37the algorithm to show less of you as you
22:40see on Twitter now people are
22:41complaining about you know if you have a
22:43link in your Tweet you get demoted if so
22:46if any of those Behavior or the take
22:48rate changes or whatever happens that
22:49you don't like you can switch right
22:52that's the key thing just like with an
22:53email provider like if you don't like
22:54what substack is doing you can take your
22:56email audience and you can leave and you
22:58can go to ghost or some other C
23:00MailChimp or something in the same way
23:02with something like forecaster you can
23:04you can change software providers and so
23:06you can shop around and that even if you
23:08don't shop around the fact that you can
23:10shop around is what gives the user
23:13leverage um in the same way that like if
23:16you have a if you host your website with
23:19AWS they can only [ __ ] with you so much
23:22right they can raise the price they can
23:23do this but in the end it's a pain to
23:25switch but it's not the end of the world
23:27to switch because you have the domain
23:29name and you have the kind of property
23:31rights that you were assured on the
23:33original web right but we've kind of
23:35Forgotten those property rights now and
23:37I think it's only like I mean I thing I
23:39would say is like obviously social media
23:41has been around for 15 20 years but
23:43really only in a mainstream way in the
23:44last less than a decade I mean that it's
23:47gone mainstream and I think only
23:49recently have these companies as part of
23:51my core argument is that the incentives
23:53of these Network providers changes over
23:54time when they start off they I call it
23:57the attractive Str cycle when they start
23:59off they are trying to um uh recruit
24:04people to into the network whether
24:05they're users or compliments like
24:07content providers but over time they
24:09start to squeeze you and you see this
24:10like look in your Google Google search
24:12today or Amazon searches today Google
24:14search most of your searches now are
24:16Google Google properties the results are
24:19Google Properties or sponsored ads very
24:22very different than it was 10 years ago
24:23and this is happening more and then on
24:25social media what's happening is that
24:27people are are basically they've capped
24:29out their kind of organic growth for the
24:31most part they're growing like 10% a
24:32year or something to get to to get to
24:35juice further growth they need to keep
24:37you on the keep you in the app longer
24:39and that's why they're demoting links
24:40and doing all these other kinds of
24:41things so they're kind of turning so I
24:43would argue also that we're relatively
24:44early in the social media Revolution and
24:46that only now are a lot of these
24:48companies really turning the screws and
24:50that I think creates greater opportunity
24:52for Alternatives because people are
24:53starting to sort of see these effects
24:55that people like me have been talking
24:56about for a long time but seemed
24:58theoretical and now are becoming more
25:01kind of practical yeah you know we've SE
25:02we've seen this kind of pattern before I
25:05think it originally started probably
25:06with Windows and PCs but then um you
25:09know kind of over time where if the
25:13provider uh has to get all the money um
25:16in order to to continue growing then
25:19eventually nobody Builds on the platform
25:21so I think that you know kind of in the
25:23early days of social media we imagined a
25:27world with all kinds of applications
25:28that could make use of your friends and
25:30your um you know your Associates or
25:33whatever and all kinds of things you
25:34could build your business on but kind of
25:37what's happened is you can only build
25:40something if it's very very small or
25:42you'll get basically shot in the head or
25:45outlawed or Changed by the platform
25:48provider so how talk a little bit about
25:50how that works yeah you guys saw this
25:52with me like we used to invest in things
25:55that were built on Facebook and Twitter
25:56would we ever do like when I I would say
25:58around 2013 12 13 probably people like
26:02us all the VCS stopped because of
26:03platform risk right this is not a
26:05theoretical thing like it just was very
26:07clear the writing was on the wall at one
26:09point like Zinga was built on Facebook
26:11and ipoed and so there was a there was a
26:14very broad mainstream School of tech
26:16thinking that it was okay to build on
26:18social PL social media platforms and
26:20that just completely SW I mean would you
26:22guys ever fund somebody building whose
26:24entire business was was based on one of
26:26these social media platforms
26:29so okay I'll recuse I'll answer no but I
26:34mean and that and that ended what eight
26:37years ago or something I mean this is
26:38something I think that that the outside
26:40kind of mainstream world hasn't realized
26:42yet like this has real consequences um
26:45these these platform decisions I would
26:46actually argue Ben with respect to
26:47Microsoft maybe this is a loaded topic
26:50with this group but uh I would actually
26:51argue they're in some ways benign
26:53relatively like Bill Gates always said
26:55that the plat that the apps need to make
26:57more money than the OS he said right
26:59like oh yeah he did say but compare it
27:02to look look what Apple's doing now like
27:03no you see this that no one none of the
27:05major apps would build in the in uh for
27:08um Vision Pro because they're the
27:11Spotify of the world because they'd been
27:12so screwed over like they're much
27:14harsher 30% and just people don't in
27:17business or just don't realize like how
27:19owner that is on a on a business yeah I
27:22mean M Microsoft's methods were
27:24different you know they're all saying uh
27:28Lotus 123 or Doss ain't done till Lotus
27:31123 won't run was their motto they would
27:34just keep putting bugs in the operating
27:35system that destroyed D or destroyed one
27:38two3 um and by the way they did the same
27:40thing to us at Netscape so I think that
27:43you know if you go back to like um the
27:48mid90s you could not get an application
27:52funded on a PC by a VC because you know
27:55they knew that Microsoft would just put
27:57you out of business business so it's
27:58it's a kind of common pattern where if
28:00the network effects ACW to the company
28:04um then the only way for the or the way
28:06the primary way the company company
28:07likes to grow is by basically capturing
28:11everything that's involved in that
28:12Network effect and you know as a result
28:15you kind of get these very stale
28:17ecosystems over time and that's you I
28:20think that's what made Windows
28:21vulnerable to the internet that's you
28:23know and hopefully that'll be what makes
28:25these monopolies vulnerable to a kind of
28:30decentralized system where ownership is
28:33distributed and not just in one company
28:36um one of my I don't know is it maybe
28:38I'm wrong but this I believe this is
28:40that there's there's a lot of pent up
28:42developer energy um and that sort of
28:44we've lived in a decade of very closed
28:48platforms yeah and people have forgotten
28:51what it's like to be able to really
28:52build um on a on a on top of an Internet
28:56service yep and you know we saw that how
28:59the excitement level early Twitter was
29:00all these developers building things and
29:02we saw that level of excitement and I I
29:05my belief is that if you look at the 80
29:07years of software history like that's a
29:09long ongoing Trend most vividly embodied
29:12in open source software y but also with
29:15the early internet you know with that
29:172008 year of social media and I believe
29:19it's sort of this pent up energy that
29:21with the right blockchain application we
29:23can release energy and there will be
29:25this huge wave of kind of developer
29:28excitement around it um I don't know so
29:30I think there's sort of a dam that could
29:32that's about to break or could break
29:33with the right application
29:36yeah yeah no I think that's right and I
29:38think that you know like one of the
29:39things that we talk about and and you
29:41know because you know one one of the
29:43things we we should bring up we can't
29:45ignore is uh we've had like these hype
29:48and crash Cycles in crypto blockchain
29:51and um they're kind of typical of
29:55Technology it's a little more visible in
29:57this case because there's this uh token
30:01value associated with the with the rise
30:03and fall that that we haven't had in
30:05previous kind of hype crash Cycles but
30:08talk a little bit about you know like
30:10where are we in terms of the
30:13infrastructure buildout the performance
30:17of the blockchains the cost of running
30:19on the blockchains um and how you think
30:23know are we there yet in terms of are we
30:27where people are going to you know kind
30:29of build these new worlds and these
30:33applications or or is it still a little
30:36early in the process yeah I would say a
30:38couple things there so first of all you
30:40know the common a common argument
30:41against crypto is it's been around 15
30:43years and like where the where the big
30:45applications I would say a couple things
30:47first you know Bitcoin has been around
30:49that long but ethereum which really
30:51generalized the ideas of Bitcoin and and
30:54and built a blockchain that's a general
30:55computing platform that was 2015 and
30:57then just sort of V1 ethereum was had
31:00severe limitations um and specifically
31:03it would cost you know $10 to do a
31:05simple transaction so imagine if every
31:08time you click like on the social media
31:10thing you have to pay $10 like it's not
31:13platform that's a different kind of take
31:15rate yeah and so and so like that kind
31:17of curve of like how much does it cost
31:20to to and how performant is a blockchain
31:23and how how secure performant and
31:25expensive is a blockchain is in some
31:28ways it's sort of the Moors law or the
31:30and AI would be the equivalent of like
31:31the number of parameters in your neural
31:32network it's kind of this core
31:34infrastructure Trend that I think is
31:36highly I think those core infrastructure
31:37Trends I would argue in the history of
31:39tech are quite predictive um you know
31:41you could you could argue about all I
31:43mean I'm sure there were a lot of Genius
31:44things done in the AI algorithm side but
31:47you guys would know better but I think a
31:49big part of the development was just the
31:51improvements in gpus and the ability to
31:53run models and there's some sense in
31:56which you could sort of have projected
31:57out I think from five to 10 years ago
32:00when we might hit those tipping points
32:02um and I think a similar thing exists in
32:04blockchains and so I think the good look
32:05I think it's the timing is always hard
32:07to predict but I like for example
32:09there's an ethereum upgrade happening in
32:10three weeks 4844 which is going to Pro
32:14like basically 100x the Improvement of
32:16ethereum l2s which are the main way of
32:18scaling ethereum today and you get sort
32:20of sub peny transaction costs for most
32:22applications so it feels like we're
32:24getting very close to something that's
32:26very us for a lot that just really
32:29widens the aperture of possible
32:30applications if you if it costs you know
32:33if you if you were to ask somebody if it
32:34cost $5 to do a transaction what
32:37applications are possible like the
32:39reality is a lot of the applications
32:41that are pro possible are things like
32:43trading and lending and that's exactly
32:45what happened to work on ethereum three
32:48years ago right right right right still
32:50it's still cheaper to trade and lend
32:53even with the transaction cost right if
32:54you're borrowing $1,000 $5 is fine right
32:57if you're trying to play a game or do
32:59something on social media it's
33:01completely unacceptable right so I sort
33:03of think of it as like each each
33:05decrease in cost and increase in
33:07performance sort of it's like concentric
33:10circles get unlocked of different
33:11application categories right um and then
33:14at the same time we have you know like
33:15in our portfolio you know something on
33:18the order of many dozens of high quality
33:21application um companies and
33:22entrepreneurs building things on you
33:24know that take advantage of that
33:25infrastructure so it's very hard to
33:27predict I found historically exactly
33:30when it will all come together and
33:32you'll have the right infrastructure and
33:33the right applications but it does feel
33:36like the pieces are in place and so you
33:37mentioned the Cycles I mean we've been
33:38through if you just look at prices like
33:40bitcoin price there's been since we've
33:43been involved 10 years three kind of
33:46bull markets you know Bitcoin going up
33:48and then dropping um and you know
33:52potentially there's a you know maybe
33:54it's gone up lately maybe we're entering
33:57um uh you know my hope is that this
34:01this this time it's much more based
34:04around uh real applications that have
34:07utility that are non-speculative and not
34:11sort of just pure kind of excitement as
34:13as it was somewhat in the past yeah know
34:15it's it's very interesting because it it
34:17is so reminiscent of the internet kind
34:22so Mark and I used to get asked
34:25constantly uh about you
34:28know it was like isn't the internet dead
34:30like what are you doing it's no
34:34longer now about that like it drives me
34:36crazy like people are like the internet
34:38was inevitable I mean you guys know you
34:40guys know better than me but I did start
34:42my career during the downturn and like
34:44it was far from inevitable and far from
34:46obvious I mean it was like it was a
34:47thing people used it but it was this
34:49thing that sat on your desktop and 15
34:51minutes a day you'd go get your travel
34:53tickets or something like it wasn't you
34:55know it was nothing like today today
34:57well yeah and and it was very kind of it
34:59was the exact same situation I mean you
35:00know and you know Paul Krugman the Nobel
35:03prize winning Economist you know kind of
35:05famously said that it's never going to
35:06be more important than the fax machine
35:08and all that kind of thing um but he
35:10wasn't the only one at all and the
35:12reason was the economics didn't work the
35:16way people imagined they would one day
35:19um in that you know if you go back
35:22to 96 I think we had 90% browser share
35:26Mark and we had 50 million users so
35:28there was like 55 million people on the
35:30internet so that's the first thing the
35:31market wasn't that big and then the
35:33second thing was you know half of those
35:35were on dialup so there was limited
35:38kinds of applications you could run and
35:40then the other thing was like building a
35:43website was really complex the the
35:47software infrastructure the tools were
35:50really really primitive um and you know
35:53not really designed for anything but
35:55serving a page and and so the amount you
35:58know the number of Engineers you'd have
36:00to feel to get like a mediocre working
36:04application deployed to 55 million
36:07people was just like it didn't work the
36:10math didn't work on the economics for
36:12most things it worked for a few things
36:13like eBay and Amazon and so forth but it
36:15certainly would have worked for you know
36:18Facebook or uh Twitter or these kinds of
36:21things and so you know at that point um
36:25you know if you just mark that point in
36:27time you'd go oh where are the killer
36:29apps like this stuff is all Bs like
36:31nobody's making any money they're
36:32selling dollars for 95 like all that
36:34stuff came out um which is kind of
36:37exactly what's going on in crypto where
36:39it's not that like the technological
36:42path isn't correct and obvious and
36:44inevitable it's that like we're just at
36:47a point in time where there's whole
36:49classes of applications that don't make
36:51economic sense right now and and that
36:53seems to be changing fairly rapidly well
36:55what they and like so like in the my
36:57book I site there was a Pew study I
36:59think it was 2003 that asked Americans
37:01if they want broadband and the majority
37:03said no yeah um and of course you know
37:05what was going on there is that when
37:07people thought Broadband when they
37:08thought the internet they thought email
37:09and a few other applications yeah and
37:11what they ignored I I'm not blaming the
37:13consumers I'm blaming the pundits here
37:15but like what they what they ignored was
37:17that it's an interactive feedback loop
37:20between applications and platforms right
37:22so as Broadband grew people created
37:25Youtube and video sites and that created
37:27new applications right and these things
37:29like to understand these processes like
37:31the growth of the internet and just I
37:32would argue this is what's special about
37:34software people map Hardware onto it
37:36when they don't software has this much
37:38more malleable nature where you can have
37:40these interactive feedback loops um and
37:43crypto like the internet is a
37:44software-based medium and so you what
37:46you're saying I think is if you just
37:47draw a line through the current
37:49applications you get one result if you
37:50then imagine people are really creative
37:53and they'll be creating new applications
37:54and the platforms are getting better and
37:56those two will feedback into each other
37:58you end up with a very different kind of
37:59development curve yeah no absolutely and
38:02it and and like you know it it just
38:04takes time um that's the other thing and
38:07and what happens is investors always get
38:10ahead of the which is kind of a good
38:14thing but it's a bad thing so um they
38:16they get they get all wrapped up in the
38:19hype they're like oh my God this is
38:21going to change the world it's going to
38:22do everything you know the take rates
38:24are going to go down people are going to
38:25build these mess worlds da which is all
38:29true but they're not going to get a
38:31return tomorrow um you know that the
38:34money is not going to come out the other
38:35end of the machine in like you know a
38:38quarter uh which is a lot what investors
38:41are used to and so then they get
38:42massively depressed and they sell
38:44everything and it's a and the Press
38:46writes all these super negative stories
38:48well like the internet bubble it was I
38:50mean it was it actually a bubble because
38:51in the end it was correct it just took
38:53long time right right right like I mean
38:57so in some ways it just the market got
38:59ahead of it but in some a lot of a lot
39:01of those sort of breathless magazine
39:03articles in the 90s which people laughed
39:04at were actually accurate they just were
39:06ahead of their time yeah well and and
39:08every crypto kind of bubble has kind of
39:12been exceeded by the kind of next wave
39:15of applications and things that people
39:16can build you know in terms of the
39:18pricing so it does seem like it's
39:21following like a really wellknown
39:23well-worn pattern um but of course
39:27uh and even more so with crypto I think
39:29than with the internet the Press only
39:31like there's only ever a news story if
39:33the price of uh Bitcoin and ethereum are
39:36going down like when they go up like
39:39it's not in the news at all but when
39:40they're going down there's like a
39:42thousand stories yeah there's a website
39:44Bitcoin obituaries it's like the 400 400
39:47times that it's bitcoin's been declared
39:49dead yeah know it's very interesting I
39:52mean which is an amazing I always you
39:54know when uh we talk to our investors
39:57and they ask well like you know you know
40:00is crypto just a fat I'm like well you
40:02know like Bitcoin started in 2008 and
40:05it's you know a piece of software and
40:08there's probably four Engineers working
40:10on it at this point and there's no
40:11company and it's worth a trillion
40:13dollars that's a hell of a magic trick
40:15you know like if that's not a real thing
40:19then then what is a real thing you know
40:22at this point yeah I would think at some
40:24point you would imagine that the people
40:25that have said big coin's dead I'll just
40:27stick to bitcoin for 15 years would say
40:29okay I've been wrong for 15 years yeah
40:32maybe it's time to reevaluate my theory
40:34that it's just beanie babies and but I
40:37guess but I haven't seen that
40:38self-reflection but the my my argument
40:41would be that that the you know that the
40:43core that the core idea of Bitcoin um
40:47this idea that you have a financial
40:48service that the community owns is just
40:51an incredibly powerful idea that has
40:53really appealed to people and then of
40:54course has been expanded to other
40:56platforms like ethereum um channeling
41:00that excitement into specific useful
41:03applications is sort of the is the next
41:05challenge but the kind of genuine deep
41:07excitement for community-owned internet
41:11services I think is demonstrated through
41:14the just the the sheer um uh resilience
41:18of services like Bitcoin yeah and you
41:21know it's it's really kind of important
41:24societally and I think that you have a
41:26great metaphor in the book as you kind
41:27of get into you know things like okay
41:30how is VR going to work and so forth and
41:32you talk about well we can have
41:35Disneyland um which is fantastic by the
41:37way um or we can have cities uh and
41:42maybe talk a little bit about that and
41:46you know kind of why like what's good
41:49about cities versus Disneyland and and
41:51you know what's a world where like a
41:53corporation owns you know everywhere you
41:56live live and everything you do and
41:57every restaurant and every everything I
41:59mean this goes back to what Mark was
42:00talking about earlier I mean I just look
42:02I I believe there's lots of evidence for
42:05and I deeply believe that most
42:06Innovation comes from the edges Right
42:09comes from individuals creative people
42:12entrepreneurs and that no matter how
42:15much you for example try to centrally
42:16plan let's say a city you'll never do as
42:19good of a job as you know a million
42:21people all being creative right and like
42:24I think we have just the reason I like
42:25the city metaphor I think people see
42:27this viscerally in the real world right
42:29I think almost everybody would agree
42:31that New York City is a more interesting
42:33Dynamic place than some you know planned
42:35city or theme park um and that it works
42:37quite well um and and how does it work
42:40it works through a series of incentives
42:41it also works I think through a balance
42:43of public and private spaces so you know
42:47a city block is like you have the
42:49sidewalk and the street which play you
42:51know an important role for enabling
42:53entrepreneurship like you know you can
42:55open a pizza shop and and if that were a
42:57toll road owned by another company you'd
42:58be afraid of of you know take rates and
43:01hold up but because you know it's open
43:04um you know you can build a business at
43:06the same time you know I don't think we
43:07want all the pizza shops to be
43:08government owned because that there's a
43:10lot of value in having the creative
43:11creativity of Entrepreneurship so I I
43:14like cities I mean I like cities
43:15personally and I I live you know I live
43:17in cities and I I think they're exciting
43:20and I just find energy out of them and I
43:22think a lot of people other people do
43:24but to me that's sort of also how I
43:25thought of the early internet is you had
43:27these public resources like the the web
43:29protocol and the email protocol that
43:31acted almost like city streets and then
43:34you had all of this creativity at the
43:36edges and that for me that just made it
43:38fun and exciting and enabled
43:39entrepreneurship and Innovation at the
43:41edges um so that that's part of what my
43:43kind of core argument and belief is and
43:45why this is an important topic is it's
43:47not just about sort of you know fighting
43:50over how a technology is built right
43:52it's fundamentally like do we have an
43:54Internet that creates incentives for
43:56Innovation at the edges for
43:58entrepreneurs for Creative people it's
44:01very I think of it as very analogous to
44:02the arguments for open source software
44:04which I'm also obviously a proponent of
44:06and you guys are um in the sense that
44:08open source software just allows for all
44:10of this other like I hope that we have
44:12open source AI systems um that are
44:15competitive with the closed one so that
44:17entrepreneurs can build around that
44:18right it's I mean think about how V I
44:20think the world just really
44:21underestimates how valuable things like
44:22Linux are and all all of that open
44:25source software that that is the reason
44:27why um a a team with a million dollars
44:30can go build a awesome SAS platform or
44:32something right um and I think we could
44:35have the same thing I sort of think one
44:36way to think about blockchains is
44:37they're doing for the service layer what
44:40open source software did for the
44:41software layer for like for software
44:44running live in production you know you
44:46can now have uh services that are open
44:49and committed to staying open and
44:51therefore provide incentives for people
44:52to build on top in a way that you
44:53couldn't in the older model yeah that's
44:56a really great point because you know
44:57open source software is kind
44:59of it it broke the network effect that
45:03concentrated all of the power in
45:05software and software applications into
45:07a single company with an operating
45:10system Network effect and that kind of
45:13opened up the world for so many
45:16companies and you know businesses have
45:18been gotten so much more efficient and
45:20so forth and none of that could have
45:21happened uh without kind of Open Source
45:24unlocking it and saying look
45:26you don't have to rewrite an operating
45:28system and then you don't have to
45:30contribute most of your money into
45:31somebody else's Network effect who's
45:33gonna eventually come kill you um you
45:36know that that's such a profound change
45:39but but I would argue that so like but
45:41then what happened right is the the
45:43corporate the companies responded by
45:45saying we're g to move up the stack
45:46we're going to move up to the stack to
45:48the service layer we're going to
45:49monopolize Services data right right and
45:53and I would argue like this is one of
45:56the things I I wish I could convince the
45:57open source folks of if you like open
45:59source you should really like
46:00blockchains as well because it's
46:02essentially open Sour's response to that
46:05move up to the service layer right right
46:07so as these companies move to the
46:08service layer to make that the new choke
46:09point we now have a way to build open
46:11services that are committed to staying
46:13open that can compete with them and that
46:15should be yeah an extension I believe is
46:17an extension of the open source Mission
46:19not not a different Mission yeah yeah
46:21know and a really kind of amazing
46:23distribution of of power kind of getting
46:26back to the original uh kind of
46:28communist versus libertarian technology
46:32argument you know these Network effects
46:35concentrate power so severely and is it
46:37concentrate power and it's kind of a you
46:40know is it concentrating the power with
46:42the stakeholders the entire Community
46:44all the users um or is it concentrating
46:47power with a single Corporation and
46:50that's really the the key
46:53delineation I mean I don't see I mean
46:56maybe you guys have a different view um
46:58I I just have trouble seeing outside of
47:00blockchains right now how we don't end
47:02up with sort of you know a little bit of
47:05a Wall-E world with like five companies
47:07controlling the internet I mean that's
47:08certainly where we're headed right now
47:10it's where we are forget headed we are I
47:13mean we are and I think yeah and so I
47:16don't know like I just I wish you know I
47:18mean in theory there's a
47:20regulatory solution I think in practice
47:23it's 10 years you know well you could
47:25debate it but like blocking figma or
47:28Activision is a sideshow well the
47:31regulatory the regulatory apparatus in
47:33both the US and in Europe seems to
47:34actually want that right to want the
47:37concentration I mean they certainly are
47:38that seems to be their their their
47:41they're behaving as if they do even
47:43though they don't say that but sure well
47:45it sets it up to for the government to
47:47seize the means of production right like
47:49it's which is kind of what they're doing
47:52um in pieces so it's like okay we're
47:55we're not going to get all the money
47:56from Google but we're going to control
47:58what Google publishes and says um and
48:01and that basically transfers tremendous
48:04power to the government uh and away from
48:06the people so let's if I could um I
48:09don't want to cut you guys off but um
48:11there there was a relevant question um
48:12from from Twitter um from from X there
48:14was a relevant sheet um uh on this which
48:18is uh basically uh Central Bank uh
48:21currency digital currency so um you know
48:24there there are various governments that
48:25have uh already have projects underway
48:27to do so-called Central Bank digital
48:28currency sort of national Sovereign uh
48:30you know kind of centrally managed you
48:32know not non-blockchain Central managed
48:34uh uh digital currencies in competition
48:36with systems like Bitcoin and and
48:38ethereum and and and other crypto web
48:40three things um and then of course you
48:42know lots of speculation in the US and
48:43statements from government officials and
48:45politicians over the years that that
48:46would be a good idea here as well um
48:48yeah Chris like how how would you
48:50compare and contrast everything you
48:51talked about the book with the idea of a
48:52central bank digital currency and then
48:53what's your what's your take on the
48:54whole thing yeah I think there's a
48:57couple Dimensions to the to the central
48:59bank digital currency like there's one
49:00idea which is having a digital dollar
49:03right and I would argue we have a
49:04digital dollar today and that's stable
49:06coins like usdc on platforms like
49:09ethereum and that um this the my
49:12argument would be the smart way there's
49:14a there's a bill a stable coin bill
49:16that's pending in Congress that you know
49:18that you do need some regulatory guard
49:20rails around that and that bill would
49:22provide it but don't go and try to rein
49:25event what the technology Community has
49:28built already um then so that's so
49:31that's you know now the the strong form
49:33of the of the Central Bank digital
49:34currency is an actual government
49:37created digital dollar payment system
49:39that's tightly controlled and I think
49:42that there are people that worry that
49:44you know sort of the trucker thing in
49:45Canada that you're essentially going to
49:47have that as a way you know government
49:50to do government assigned credit score
49:52government controlled payments it
49:55becomes new lever in um the sort of the
49:59the operation choke point stuff where
50:00people are getting debanked right you're
50:02going to have just endless and I think
50:04it's I don't know my own view I'm not a
50:06political expert but like I think it's
50:08very likely the next debate we kind of
50:11debate the way that speech has been
50:13debated the last five years I think
50:14money is very likely to be debated in
50:16the next five years and cdbc in one
50:19formulation of it is kind of the the
50:22main embodiment of that'll be the main
50:25embodiment of that debate right yeah
50:27let's let's dig into that for for a bit
50:29because I'll just give you my view and
50:30see what you think which is my view is
50:31the the thing with the and you guys have
50:33talked about this from a bunch of
50:34different angles already
50:35but one of the things that just is
50:38really changed like the underlying
50:39things really changed is that like
50:40computers and software used to be like
50:42you buy it you use it you do what you
50:43want you install whatever you write
50:45whatever software you want you install
50:46whatever software you want you write
50:47whatever you want with your word
50:48processing software you print whatever
50:49you want on your printer and then we
50:51kind of imported that that ethos into
50:53the internet kind of web 1.0 which is
50:55you know you send whatever email you
50:57want you do whatever vo call you want
50:58you put out whatever website you want um
51:01and you know if you're doing something
51:02like blatantly illegal and if you're
51:03like sending somebody like terrorist you
51:04know threats over email you get arrested
51:06based on existing like anti-terror laws
51:08but there was no idea of like content
51:09filtering on email or there was no idea
51:11of like cutting off your accounts you
51:13know getting getting you know getting
51:14Bann nobody ever got banned from email
51:16right uh or from tcpip for that matter
51:18in fact and in fact there was this whole
51:19movement right which was the net
51:20neutrality movement right which was
51:22which was uh this you know basically
51:23people who were like they they very much
51:25didn't want corporations in a position
51:26to ever be able to kick anybody off the
51:28internet and certainly not on the basis
51:29of speech and then there was just this
51:31thing that happened and it started about
51:32a decade ago a little bit longer um and
51:35and and I describe the metaphor I use is
51:36the you know the ring of power um you
51:38know the sort of Lord of the Rings thing
51:39which is you know the thing with the
51:40ring of power in The Lord of the Rings
51:42universe is It's Just Simply
51:43Irresistible right like the the ring of
51:45power is irresistible nobody can resist
51:47it everybody's subject to it if you
51:48thinking you can resist it you're wrong
51:51um and you're you're going to use it uh
51:52it's too powerful right you're going to
51:54use it and so the ring of power is
51:56centralized internet service control or
51:58centralized banking system control um
52:01it's just you know if if if you can
52:04monitor other people's Communications
52:05you will if you can filter and censor
52:08their Communications you will if you can
52:10monitor people's Financial transactions
52:12you will if you can debank people for
52:15who you don't like you will um and so
52:17it's it's all of these these sort of
52:18central chokepoint systems in in a sort
52:21of an era where they're all live and
52:22online and can be like you know
52:23basically used you can you can search
52:25them and you can scan them and you can
52:26tag people and track people and so forth
52:28and then you you can cut people off from
52:29things like they're just going to get
52:31used um and if you're political allies
52:34are in power you probably think that's a
52:35good thing because your enemies are
52:36getting punished because they're getting
52:37their bank accounts canceled and they're
52:39you know getting kicked off the internet
52:41um if you know you're on the other side
52:42of whoever's in power or there's a a
52:44regime shift then obviously that's very
52:46bad for you uh or even if it's not
52:48political even if it's just something
52:49that's socially out of fashion you know
52:51I just give you an example like you know
52:53right now the sort of overall momentum
52:55in the the US is they want to ban
52:56nicotine and and and promote marijuana
52:58right um and so you know if you're like
53:01if you're if you're if you're doing like
53:02marijuana Vapes like they they they're
53:04all in favor and if you're doing like
53:05tobacco Vapes they want to kill you and
53:07they'll like they'll like use the
53:08banking system and they'll use the
53:10internet censorship controls and so
53:11forth to promote and ban by the way that
53:13could flip tomorrow right 10 years ago
53:15that was the opposite it could be the
53:16opposite again in 10 years and then the
53:17ring of power will get used the other
53:18direction so anyway point being is that
53:20a central bank digital currency I think
53:22is kind of the ultimate ring of power
53:24like it it it's very difficult for me to
53:26see a system like that getting built and
53:28then politicians not using it to reward
53:31their friends and punish their enemies
53:33um you guys think that is it am I being
53:34too dystopian or does that does that
53:36match what you what you guys have seen
53:37and think well I think it's actually
53:40already kind of happening um at certain
53:43levels I mean we've seen companies
53:44debanked um for you will choke point 1.0
53:49uh the famous Ben you might just
53:50describe for people who don't know what
53:52that was what was that yeah so basically
53:54um as states started legalizing and
53:58particularly marijuana uh the US
54:01government um you know the federal
54:03government could kind of or didn't want
54:06to or didn't want to kind of challenge
54:07that activity through like some kind of
54:09heavy-handed law enforcement and so
54:11forth and uh you know although it was in
54:15conflict with the federal law so they
54:16did this kind of thing that was kind of
54:20extra legal administrative State
54:22Crackdown where they went to the banks
54:24and said well like if you Bank a
54:28marijuana company and you let them have
54:30a bank account then you know we're going
54:33to punish you we won't let you borrow
54:34out the FED window if you get in trouble
54:36we won't bail you out all that kind of
54:37thing which if you're a bank you can't
54:39tolerate that kind of risk and so it was
54:42kind of this weird you know like the
54:44people didn't vote for it there was no
54:46legislation it was underground it was
54:49like this extreme use of power in a very
54:53kind of Nefarious way and by the way way
54:55we're seeing uh you know this
54:57Administration do the same thing in
54:59something called choke point 2.0 but
55:01this time with crypto
55:02companies and you know there's no law
55:06that they're following there's no rule
55:09there's no uh legislation there's no
55:12vote there's no nothing it's just the
55:14government exercising power over the
55:17private sector via private corporations
55:21um and it's you know it's quite scary
55:24and this is you know for those of you
55:26who are students of History know this is
55:28exactly how fascism worked this is how
55:31Nazi Germany worked they use private
55:32corporations to kind of confiscate
55:34people's stuff and uh you know do these
55:37kinds of techniques to them and the fact
55:39that we're seeing it like right now in
55:412024 from the current
55:43Administration you know do you really
55:46want to amp up that power and say well
55:49forget just Banks but any use of money
55:53is now subject to this kind of you know
55:56bring a power to to your point I've been
55:58just continually surprised I thought
56:00that I don't know I guess growing up I
56:02thought we understood there was a
56:03trade-off that on the one hand there
56:05would be stuff we don't like and there's
56:07certainly stuff I don't like that's said
56:09spoken and shared on social media but I
56:11thought we understood there's a trade I
56:13mean and obviously you ban illegal stuff
56:15as you said and that was by the way it's
56:16banned on the web it's banned on email
56:18like it's having Law and Order is
56:20completely consistent with decentralized
56:22networks um but I thought we understood
56:25that that um you know that sort of
56:28handing the power to control speech and
56:30money and things like that to the
56:32government was a bad trade that even
56:34though maybe shortterm it seemed
56:36appealing it was a bad idea long term
56:37and I I've been surprised and I think as
56:40we all have probably in the last 10
56:42years because I just thought it was
56:43obvious like a word processor shouldn't
56:45be the thing censoring you right I mean
56:47you obviously should have some layer of
56:49blocking bad stuff but it doesn't happen
56:51at the tool level and and I think I
56:54thought we understood that as a society
56:55and I guess we don't and now we're
56:58replaying that with now like the AI
57:00stuff yesterday with Google and like I
57:03don't even know what's going to happen
57:04with these AI systems you guys are
57:05closer to it to me it just seems like
57:06they're they're I don't even see how
57:08they're useful to people if they just if
57:10they lie to you um like it just really
57:13undermines their value as a tool but I
57:15guess if we have five companies and we
57:16have no choice that's what we'll use
57:18well we learned something very valuable
57:20we over the last few days with the new
57:22Google image generator which is we
57:23learned out that the Nazis were actually
57:26verse um it turns out there were lots of
57:28black and brown Nazis and Stormtrooper
57:29uniforms um in in the streets of in the
57:31streets of Berlin and Paris and in the
57:321930s and 40s I actually didn't know
57:34that so the whole Master aace thing and
57:36the Aran thing that that's all Bs okay
57:39no no Hitler was very inclusive he was
57:40he was happy to have he was happy to
57:42have SS officers of any of any race and
57:43ethnicity in fact in fact if anything it
57:45looks like he was biased against white
57:49people okay by the way that actually
57:51made I can't even comment on that
57:53without getting myself into trouble but
57:54yes that's how the New York Times
57:56actually wrote up the story today um
57:58that was the problem that they zeroed in
58:00on which you know in this case more
58:02credit to them so we know what we don't
58:06want the kind of government to do but
58:09what do we want the government to do and
58:11why and um Talk Chris a little bit about
58:15okay like why in this with this
58:16technology is there this huge like
58:19speculative Casino aspect and and how
58:23why do we have to regate that in order
58:25to protect the kind of uh the the
58:29creative important uses that we've been
58:32discussing so far yeah so that so so
58:35crypto intersects with policy in a
58:37number of layers and there's there's so
58:39for example there's um discussions
58:41around what are called self-hosted
58:43wallets which is the ability to custody
58:45your money yourself and this goes to the
58:47question that we were just discussing
58:48around Central Bank digital currency
58:50because it sort of you know that would
58:51give a lot of power to users away from
58:54centralized actors um the specific kind
58:57of issue that's been the flasho Recently
59:00is Securities Law um so Securities Law
59:03is a you know set of laws from the from
59:05the in the US from the
59:071930s um that are essentially about
59:09protecting protecting uh Market
59:12participants from actors that have
59:14asymmetric information so specifically
59:16you think about Apple stock and there
59:18are people including the management of
59:20Apple who have information that is
59:22relevant to the price of the stock and
59:23therefore there's all these rules around
59:25how they disclose that information and
59:27how they can trade and things like that
59:29so so it's it's intended to create a
59:30Level Playing Field and and importantly
59:32those law those rules don't apply to
59:33Commodities so for example gold is
59:35considered a commodity kind of the legal
59:37theory is that that yes there are people
59:39that are experts in gold and study the
59:41you know supply and demand of gold and
59:43things like that but but it the
59:45information is decentralized enough that
59:46there is not a sort of a Sharp asymmetry
59:49of information and therefore it's
59:50regulated differently and there's
59:52generally agreement that things like
59:53Bitcoin are commodity because it's
59:55decentralized enough ethereum looks like
59:57it's in that status as well um when you
01:00:00first create a project it's by
01:00:02definition centralized because it's a
01:00:04person with an idea as as was Bitcoin as
01:00:06was every invention in the history of
01:00:08humanity right it starts off with a
01:00:10person or group people with an idea um
01:00:13and so there's a there's a pathway at
01:00:14some point you start off centralized but
01:00:16you can eventually be decentralized and
01:00:18how do you get there and what are the
01:00:20what are the Milestones you need to hit
01:00:22and and so that that has been un it's
01:00:25because it's a new technology it's very
01:00:27different than than the world in which
01:00:28these laws were designed in the 1930s
01:00:30there's been ambiguity in that and that
01:00:33ambiguity um we've argued for a long
01:00:35time for many years has had the effect
01:00:38of encouraging Bad actors because Bad
01:00:40actors like ambiguity because they
01:00:42otherwise would be stealing money and
01:00:44hacking and doing whatever and so having
01:00:46some risk of a lawsuit is actually
01:00:49appealing to them versus their other
01:00:50career options um and meanwhile good
01:00:52actors if you're a topend student out of
01:00:55Stanford do you want to go into an area
01:00:57with gray with legal gray area or where
01:00:59you just stick to AI or something right
01:01:01and so what we've seen for a long time
01:01:03is that that ambiguity has created a
01:01:05disincentive for good entrepreneurs an
01:01:07incentive for Bad actors and I think has
01:01:09in many ways contributed to a lot of the
01:01:11things that happened like for example
01:01:13with FTX and other um scandals and
01:01:15things because it just sort of Drew in
01:01:17the wrong people um and so we saw this
01:01:20Dynamic happening I don't know five
01:01:21years ago or something and have been
01:01:22calling you know trying to advocate for
01:01:25policies and clear rules um obviously we
01:01:28want a pathway to allow Innovation but
01:01:31really a lot of it's just about having
01:01:32that Clarity because entrepreneurs want
01:01:34that predictability right they don't
01:01:35want to they're fine spending money and
01:01:38jumping through hoops they just need to
01:01:40know what the Hoops are and that's and
01:01:42so instead what what's happening because
01:01:44there has not been any legislation or or
01:01:47or Ru making from the enforcement bodies
01:01:50um instead it's all be happening through
01:01:52courts and so there are lawsuits
01:01:54happening and that's going to take many
01:01:56years to play out it'll be appealed and
01:01:58then there'll be and by the way this is
01:02:00I think happening in AI right now we'll
01:02:01see what happens um similar thing with
01:02:04like New York Times open AI lawsuit you
01:02:05know you're going to have potentially
01:02:07copyright important decisions that have
01:02:09effects on huge economic effects decided
01:02:12by judges three to five years from now
01:02:16um who are interpreting you know 100
01:02:18plusy old rules as opposed to society
01:02:22coming together as a democracy and
01:02:23jointly deciding on what the best
01:02:25outcome is which I you know we think is
01:02:27a better way to do it right we should we
01:02:28think I think the my argument is the
01:02:30best way to think about policy whether
01:02:31it's AI or crypto is look at the
01:02:33technology expansively look at the pros
01:02:35look at the cons and then through a
01:02:37democratic process ideally you know and
01:02:40this is very idealized because it's not
01:02:42the politics of today but like have a
01:02:44intelligent discussion discuss the pros
01:02:46and the cons and then come up with a
01:02:48policy solution that maximizes the pros
01:02:50and minimizes the cons that would be the
01:02:53the I think my view the smart way to
01:02:55approach new technologies from a policy
01:02:57perspective yeah yeah no absolutely um
01:03:02Mark what does the internet have to say
01:03:05great um ghost to Twin Peaks uh a great
01:03:08show uh in both incarnations um says um
01:03:11how will crypto benefit the American
01:03:15interest I think I look my my argument
01:03:18would be the core I mean America is very
01:03:20good at entrepreneurship and Innovation
01:03:22and we want to see and I think by the
01:03:24way this benefits VC's interest when I
01:03:25get asked is this in your interest like
01:03:27am I doing this am I arguing for a
01:03:29dynamic entrepreneurial Rich internet
01:03:32out of self-interest to some extent I am
01:03:35I work in the in the Venture Capital
01:03:37business as you guys do like we depend
01:03:39on there being a very Dynamic economy
01:03:41and so I think having the build the kind
01:03:44of the technological building blocks and
01:03:47I would the two big buckets I would do
01:03:48say would be blockchains and open source
01:03:50software are critical for preserving uh
01:03:54you know high level of dynamism
01:03:56entrepreneurship I think you mark talk
01:03:57about this like the US economy should
01:03:59not be thought of as a static lump of
01:04:02jobs I think it's every year what eight
01:04:04million jobs are destroyed or something
01:04:06and then ideally you know more than
01:04:07eight million are created it's a
01:04:09constant churn and we need to make sure
01:04:11that keeps happening um and so um I I
01:04:15think yeah so the policy should be
01:04:17encourage uh entrepreneurship creativity
01:04:20Innovation at the edges not five big
01:04:23companies that control everything yeah I
01:04:26I would add to that Mark that um you
01:04:28know if you think about America and why
01:04:31it's important in the world uh you know
01:04:34we often refer to ourselves as you know
01:04:36a superpower the superpower and that
01:04:39that superpower is derived really from
01:04:43you know a few areas one is military
01:04:45power which I I think is kind of
01:04:49declining for us and that you know the
01:04:51there's disputes spread out all over the
01:04:53world I think as a
01:04:54relative um you know Superior strength
01:04:57as the technology of warfare is changing
01:05:00our lead is not what it once was the
01:05:02second is the dollar itself and we've
01:05:05seen we've tried to use that in lie of
01:05:07military power in the Russia Ukraine
01:05:09conflict and it it's been very
01:05:11ineffective and then the third is the
01:05:13internet where we're exporting our
01:05:15values our culture um and making the
01:05:18rules of the internet and that was
01:05:20enabled Because the Internet largely got
01:05:23built in the United stes States and you
01:05:25know the government didn't undermine it
01:05:27in fact it um promoted it and that that
01:05:31that remains a huge source of power for
01:05:33the country and for the ideas that come
01:05:35out of the country currently and the
01:05:37kind of the American way of life so so
01:05:40to speak and you know if we forfeit the
01:05:44next um evolution of the internet to
01:05:48whomever and there are many countries by
01:05:50the way who are have been much much
01:05:53better on crypto regul ation to date you
01:05:55know as as a way to kind of preserve
01:05:58this ring of power which has been what's
01:06:01been going on um you know it's it's one
01:06:04of the most destructive things we can do
01:06:05to the country uh so so it's you know
01:06:09and a huge reason um you know other than
01:06:11like I agree with Chris it's in our
01:06:12interest because we you know like it's a
01:06:14good investment for us if it goes well
01:06:17but like you know for the country it's
01:06:19probably you know the most important
01:06:20thing that we're doing as a
01:06:24um and then a related question from D um
01:06:27do you see adoption of crypto occurring
01:06:29you know I would say and we might say
01:06:31like past present and future here um in
01:06:33regions with uh fewer regulations or
01:06:35less regulatory capture uh before the
01:06:37United States it's a good question I
01:06:40think I mean like we're seeing I think
01:06:42there's different dimensions to that
01:06:44like so for example in usage there's a
01:06:47lot of data that shows for example
01:06:48stable coin adoption is much higher in
01:06:50countries with with um volatile currenc
01:06:53so like Argentina something like last
01:06:55number I saw was 18% of argentinians
01:06:57have own a stable coin um in America 50
01:07:01million people um have crypto and mostly
01:07:04Bitcoin um so pretty you know pretty big
01:07:06number um I think there's a separate
01:07:08question where the projects will be
01:07:09based so pretty a lot of projects now
01:07:11are blocking the US um because of the
01:07:14regulatory situation here which says
01:07:16something the fact that us is the only
01:07:18country you block is kind of I think a
01:07:20sad statement um and so um yeah where
01:07:24those companies are those projects are
01:07:26based where um where they allow users
01:07:30will be a question I think a lot of will
01:07:33regulatory um questions and like look
01:07:35we're working we open an office in the
01:07:36UK because they seem to be taking a a
01:07:38forward-looking approach there towards
01:07:41regulation here um my view is I like
01:07:43maybe I'm overly optimistic I think that
01:07:45eventually all of the major countries
01:07:47will coales on a reasonable policy here
01:07:51I hope I just think it will be a
01:07:53question of how long it takes and sort
01:07:56of our pitch to various jurisdictions
01:08:00like the UK has been There's an
01:08:02opportunity to get ahead of that um as
01:08:04you guys know people have come to us
01:08:06forever saying they want to create a new
01:08:08Silicon Valley um and and our you know
01:08:11and they they say things like we'll
01:08:13provide free office space we'll provide
01:08:14funding right these are not what people
01:08:17need or want um what they want is
01:08:19regulatory Clarity like that is the way
01:08:22like getting I believe getting ahead on
01:08:23regulation whether it's again AI crypto
01:08:26whatever the emerging area might be is
01:08:28the best way for a country that you need
01:08:32other things you need good universities
01:08:33and sort of Entrepreneurship and things
01:08:35like that but that that is the smartest
01:08:37way to get ahead of um and create a new
01:08:39Silicon Valley and I think um we're
01:08:42seeing some like Asia some Japan just
01:08:44did some positive things UK is doing
01:08:46some positive things even EU I would
01:08:48argue is better than the us right now
01:08:50it's not perfect but like the MAA which
01:08:52is the new crypto regulatory framework
01:08:54they have is actually better than the US
01:08:57so um I think it does create an
01:08:59opportunity so we'll see how it plays
01:09:00out like we're working like we're not
01:09:02we're here in the US we're working very
01:09:03hard to work with policy makers here and
01:09:06would like to see it happen here yeah
01:09:07and actually to give you a concrete
01:09:09example of that Mark um of of kind of
01:09:11companies not being able to function in
01:09:13the US you know we have an investment in
01:09:15a company called worldcoin which is like
01:09:17a very kind of topical relevant
01:09:20technology because it it's proof of
01:09:23human they can do a zero knowledge proof
01:09:25that proves you're a human being not an
01:09:28AI bot but the one country that they
01:09:31cannot list on an exchange in is the
01:09:33United States they only list in foreign
01:09:35exchanges and and and they're blocking
01:09:37the they're not going to launch the
01:09:38product in the US either so yeah um and
01:09:42then let's um you know actually building
01:09:43on that point so U there were a bunch of
01:09:44questions around Ai and you guys touched
01:09:46on this a little bit already but let
01:09:48maybe let's dig into the next level of
01:09:49detail because it's a very very uh
01:09:51people very interested in this um so two
01:09:53questions so krux asks what is the
01:09:55current relationship between Ai and web
01:09:573 cryptocurrencies um blockchain where
01:09:59do you see it going in the next decade
01:10:01and then Bob Shu asks what are some
01:10:03practical use cases you think Ai and web
01:10:053 technology together can
01:10:08solve yeah I think there's a bunch of
01:10:10interesting things I think one maybe
01:10:12I'll start with the simplest which is
01:10:15proving that something came from an
01:10:17actual human as Ben just alluded to
01:10:19proving that a sort of the provenance of
01:10:21a video or piece of media a very natural
01:10:23way to do that to me to me the only
01:10:26correct way to do to to sort of say this
01:10:28this this video is attested to be true
01:10:31by Mark andreon or this video is
01:10:33attested to be true by the New York
01:10:35Times the natural place to store that
01:10:37attestation is on a blockchain a
01:10:39blockchain is a community-owned database
01:10:41a public resource um and is made to have
01:10:45sort of an you know as a key feature has
01:10:46an immutable audit Trail um so all of
01:10:49that kind of fits very and then
01:10:51similarly with people like having I I
01:10:54think in some ways the internet you guys
01:10:56when you built the internet you forgot
01:10:57to build an identity system right like
01:11:00we tried we tried it was very hard to
01:11:02distribute uh private Keys you had a lot
01:11:05on your plate but that would have been
01:11:07nice um and so instead we have these
01:11:09ridiculous you know how many traffic
01:11:10lights are in this capture and and
01:11:13essentially what we do today is Turing
01:11:15tests right like does that email look
01:11:17real and everyone's supposed to do their
01:11:18own Turing test on every email they
01:11:20receive to see if it's real which is not
01:11:22going to be sustainable there probably
01:11:24isn't today right I mean these These
01:11:26llms are good enough to fake all of that
01:11:29voices everything right so that whole
01:11:30system is about to break down and how
01:11:33what are we going to replace it with
01:11:34right um and so so to me that's an
01:11:36obvious area of just sort of I would
01:11:38call it kind of direct counterbalancing
01:11:41features for a new world where you have
01:11:44infinite content and people um the next
01:11:46layer is things like incentive like
01:11:48blockchains are very good at designing
01:11:49incentive systems what's the incentive
01:11:50system in the future for some artist to
01:11:54put their Art Online knowing it will get
01:11:56become training data um don't we want to
01:11:59create a positive incentive system for
01:12:01that like so that there's there's like
01:12:02what you're seeing now like Reddit just
01:12:03shut down their their API Twitter's
01:12:06doing that you have more and more
01:12:08artists taking content offline because
01:12:10they're just they see it as just fodder
01:12:11for training data um and I'm not getting
01:12:15into who's right and wrong or anything
01:12:16like that just more like just think of
01:12:17it just purely from like first
01:12:19principles you want to design an
01:12:20incentive system that encourages
01:12:22creativity that encour is participation
01:12:25and blockchains are they're incentive
01:12:26machines right you can go and using a
01:12:28blockchain design a Network that has
01:12:30incentives and gives out tokens and does
01:12:32other things based on what the
01:12:33incentives you want are another layer to
01:12:36that question would be the AI systems
01:12:38themselves so for example we have an
01:12:39investment in a company called Jensen
01:12:41which is building a decentralized um GPU
01:12:45training Network so instead of having to
01:12:48go buy you know Facebook just bought I
01:12:49think it was 10,000 h100s 10 billion
01:12:52dollar in capex like what if instead
01:12:54kind of Airbnb style you harness all the
01:12:57latent GPU power in the world by
01:12:59creating a network where people have
01:13:00incentives to provide GPU Supply and
01:13:03someone else can access them on demand
01:13:05you could do a similar idea around data
01:13:07so you know I want to contribute data to
01:13:09a network and I get paid in some way um
01:13:12so I think there's just like so there's
01:13:14just another area I would say is in a
01:13:17world where content is
01:13:21um you know are there new business
01:13:23models for Creative people one idea I
01:13:25think is really fun that we've invested
01:13:26in is called I call collaborative
01:13:28storytelling and the idea is a group of
01:13:30people get together kind of Wikipedia
01:13:32style but instead of creating
01:13:33encyclopedia they create narrative
01:13:35universes sort of like the next Marvel
01:13:36and Harry Potter and those can have
01:13:38tokens involved where they get kind of
01:13:40rewarded based on their participation
01:13:42and they could create AI generated
01:13:44movies and content and then and then go
01:13:46out and evangelize that content and get
01:13:48and make money according to how popular
01:13:50it is so you can kind of harness all
01:13:51that fan energy in a new business model
01:13:53and I would argue that AI will
01:13:54accelerate the need for the new business
01:13:56models right because it's going to Nuke
01:13:58the the model of selling content is
01:13:59going to go to zero I assume right the
01:14:02the value will shift to selling
01:14:03community and attention and you know
01:14:06participation and all these other kinds
01:14:09of things that become more relevant in a
01:14:11world where where we're watching content
01:14:13yeah I mean I think that's a great kind
01:14:15of comprehens of description and but I
01:14:20just the one thing I would add is that
01:14:21like it's there 's not really another
01:14:26answer um on the horizon to any of these
01:14:32really significant AI problems you know
01:14:34like I mean the other answer is the AI
01:14:37companies will continue to do what they
01:14:39do which is take all your content
01:14:41without asking deny that they did close
01:14:44Source everything um and you know and
01:14:47then buy whatever hundred billion
01:14:50dollars worth of gpus and train a giant
01:14:52model that you can can't compete with
01:14:53and generate a network effect so I think
01:14:56that you know an AI world without kind
01:14:59of blockchain solutions is a is a
01:15:02potentially dystopian Place well I was
01:15:05gonna say like one reason I wrote the
01:15:06book and I wish and sort of like I'm not
01:15:09claiming I have all the answers but I
01:15:11just wish we were having a discussion at
01:15:13a higher level like for example with the
01:15:15like artists in AI like today to me the
01:15:18discussion is like this very binary
01:15:20thing of like we'll either do it
01:15:21offshore in a Content Farm or we'll you
01:15:24know go to court like but like what's
01:15:25the right answer like what like let's
01:15:28think through the second order effects
01:15:29of these new technologies and like what
01:15:31what is the society we want what are the
01:15:32incentives we want you know how do we do
01:15:35we want human creativity to still
01:15:37flourish maybe the answer is no or yes
01:15:39but like let's have that discussion is
01:15:40what I'm kind of hoping to do by writing
01:15:43this book and talking about this topic
01:15:45and I I would argue then blockchains are
01:15:47very important as you just said Ben like
01:15:49probably the only plausible answer but I
01:15:51don't even see people having this
01:15:52discussion maybe I'm missing it but I
01:15:54don't I for the most part I just sort of
01:15:56see people having this legal discussion
01:15:57of like it's is it is it copyright
01:15:59violation or not as opposed to to me the
01:16:02more interesting and important question
01:16:04is what kind of Internet do we want you
01:16:06know and let's how do we design that
01:16:08internet and how do we take a proactive
01:16:09View and not just reactive like let's
01:16:11just Sue each other like let's like
01:16:13don't we want to like think bigger than
01:16:15that and like don't we want to um take
01:16:17control of the future in a way in in a
01:16:20in a way than is opposed to just
01:16:21reacting to it yeah you know it's funny
01:16:23it's kind of like that the thing that
01:16:24elon's been saying which is like there
01:16:26are the um acting like you're a good
01:16:29person and actually being a good person
01:16:31and it seems like an AI World
01:16:32everybody's acting like they're a good
01:16:34person I'm Oppenheimer I'm an effective
01:16:36altruist I I I blah blah blah and then
01:16:39everything I do is against everything
01:16:42I'm saying um and I'm not really trying
01:16:45to solve the problem I'm just you know
01:16:48continuing doing what I'm doing and then
01:16:49I'm saying a bunch of stuff to try and
01:16:52put a cloak of decent over my head I
01:16:54mean like to me the canary and the coal
01:16:55mine was stack Overflow which my you
01:16:57know we used to obviously we used to be
01:16:58investors before they got acquired um
01:17:02and my understanding is that's one of
01:17:03the key things that went into the
01:17:05training algorithms for the code
01:17:07generation and now the traffic is down
01:17:0940% or whatever because you don't need
01:17:11it which you know by the way stack
01:17:13Overflow always had an open source view
01:17:14of their data and you know that was they
01:17:17understood that and so not specific but
01:17:19I just wonder like is that the canary
01:17:21and the coal mine and if that happens
01:17:23with every piece of content on the
01:17:25internet like that goes into training
01:17:26data like is that look maybe that's the
01:17:28outcome we want maybe we want five
01:17:30websites and you just go in the
01:17:31Philippines and have them you know like
01:17:33a new programming language comes along
01:17:34and you just have a company in the
01:17:36Philippines add some new training
01:17:38data but that that that's where we're
01:17:40headed right now and I don't feel like
01:17:42people are talking about it um I don't
01:17:44think that's the world we want I think
01:17:45we want a world with incentives so like
01:17:47people have incentives to create new new
01:17:49things that go into these systems and
01:17:50participate in the internet um I I just
01:17:52I just don't see people even discuss it
01:17:54I feel like I'm this crazy person on the
01:17:56corner uh talking about these issues and
01:17:59I don't know at least there's three
01:18:01three of us in the street corner yeah um
01:18:04the the the night the hour is getting
01:18:07late and the lights the overhead lights
01:18:08are flickering um uh so Zack Zack pandle
01:18:12asks um what is your perspective on
01:18:14bitcoin specifically at this point in
01:18:15its history um is it a finished product
01:18:18or could it evolve into something
01:18:19different with lightning and or rollups
01:18:21um what is bitcoin ham total addressable
01:18:25Market yeah it's a great question I mean
01:18:27so Bitcoin there's Bitcoin the
01:18:28technology and there's Bitcoin the you
01:18:31know the actual culture and everything
01:18:33that exists around today there was a you
01:18:34know for those who know there was a
01:18:36giant Civil War in the Bitcoin Community
01:18:38five or whatever five years ago seven
01:18:41years ago um around the block size
01:18:43debate it was called which was in some
01:18:45ways a proxy war for should Bitcoin be a
01:18:47store of value or a payment system um
01:18:51and the store of value people want one
01:18:53um and I I think that sort of look store
01:18:55value means like it's a good place to
01:18:57store your money you anticipate the
01:18:59price is going to go up if you think the
01:19:01price is going to go up why would you
01:19:02want to spend it on a pizza or something
01:19:04and be the guy that spent you know be be
01:19:07the be the guy that spent money on a
01:19:08pizza when you could have saved it and
01:19:10so there's a natural tension between
01:19:11being used as a payment system for
01:19:13example and being a store value and the
01:19:16community has leaned into the store
01:19:18value um use case which has made it much
01:19:21harder for people to build kind of
01:19:23Payment Solutions and other kinds of
01:19:24utility around it that said people are
01:19:25trying like we're investors in David
01:19:27Marcus's company light spark that's
01:19:30that's building a kind of a layer on top
01:19:32and this is sort of how people are
01:19:33approaching it they're building like
01:19:34sort of these layer two systems that in
01:19:37his case it's a system where you can pay
01:19:39in like stable coins like dollars but
01:19:41then ultimately know that you can settle
01:19:43in Bitcoin and that provides this kind
01:19:46universal ba uh um uh base layer that's
01:19:51uh that's sort of trusted and independ
01:19:52dependent and you know can can can't
01:19:54change the rules on you and things like
01:19:55that um so there are people trying to do
01:19:57it I I think a lot of that energy though
01:19:59in my opinion the developer energy has
01:20:01moved to ethereum and other ecosystems
01:20:03that have been friendlier to this type
01:20:06innovation part of the result of that
01:20:08Civil War was that the the kind of the
01:20:10more Tech focused people like me felt
01:20:13like we lost and moved over to ethereum
01:20:16and other blockchains right so there's a
01:20:18question of just like there's a
01:20:19technology itself and then there's the
01:20:21culture around it and that
01:20:23so the strongest the strongest kind of
01:20:25Bitcoin bull argument you know kind of
01:20:27the the Bitcoin the Bitcoin Masis like
01:20:28the strongest form of the argument I
01:20:30think um or tell me if you disagree the
01:20:32strongest form is like you actually want
01:20:33the store of value to not change um
01:20:36right you you don't want goal to change
01:20:38right and in a similar way you don't
01:20:39want digital gold to change you just
01:20:41want it to be like permanent enduring
01:20:42unchanging and then then and then that
01:20:44in and of itself is a big part of why
01:20:45it's a good store of value it's just
01:20:46because you know that in five years and
01:20:4750 years and 500 years it's going to be
01:20:49the same thing um and you know I think I
01:20:52think that's actually a pretty
01:20:53interesting argument um the other side
01:20:55of it though is you know if other
01:20:57systems like you know ethereum maybe
01:20:59most likely right now or salana or
01:21:01others um you know if they kind of if
01:21:02they grow up um and they become useful
01:21:04in many different ways and they become
01:21:06you know as as as as they're doing if
01:21:07they become kind of true Swiss Army
01:21:08knives and if you know many thousands of
01:21:10applications get built on top of them
01:21:11and they're used for payments and like
01:21:13all kinds of other things um you know
01:21:15aren't those also equally good stores of
01:21:17value uh if not Superior stores of value
01:21:20at some point um just because you know
01:21:21to your point there'll just be far more
01:21:23investment going into them and they'll
01:21:24just like stay much more modern and
01:21:25there'll be a lot you know in general
01:21:27anything Tech related that stagnates
01:21:29dies right um and anything that has like
01:21:31lots of innovation flourishes and if
01:21:33you're generally in Tech you want to bet
01:21:34on the thing like if you're betting on
01:21:36the thing it's going to be around in a
01:21:37decade you want to bet on the thing that
01:21:38has a lot of a lot of Technology
01:21:39investment going into it um at least
01:21:42Chris would you agree that that's the
01:21:43point Counterpoint or would you no I
01:21:44agree I think I think that is the
01:21:46strongest I think that and the brand of
01:21:48Bitcoin just it's a it's a true Global
01:21:49brand and then the fact yes I agree with
01:21:51you that like the the store value
01:21:53argument is that you do want this um
01:21:56predictability and certainty and
01:21:58security that it does provide I think
01:22:01the question another way to frame the
01:22:02question you asked those is it like you
01:22:04know are they are they are they over um
01:22:09kind of overtraining on gold because I
01:22:11mean that that that makes it more like
01:22:12gold right but is gold actually what you
01:22:14want in the modern internet World um
01:22:16something that's that is simple um
01:22:19predictable but very hard to but hard to
01:22:21build on right I mean it's sort of the
01:22:23analogy breaks down um and and I think
01:22:26also like is gold like is the dollar a
01:22:28better store value or gold and dollar is
01:22:30partly a better store value to your
01:22:31point because it's also used as a means
01:22:33of exchange and a unit of account and so
01:22:35I think one I don't know I'm not an
01:22:37economist but like you if I can break it
01:22:39the only I mean the reason the dollar is
01:22:40not go store value obviously is
01:22:42inflation yeah yeah well and that's by
01:22:44the way that's the strong commitment
01:22:46that Bitcoin makes that other
01:22:48blockchains don't make as strongly which
01:22:50is um 21 million that's it
01:22:53yeah uh you know ethereum is not making
01:22:55that claim yeah I think look I think
01:22:57that I mean I I I guess I would say we
01:23:00lost the Civil War I was annoyed by it
01:23:02but then in the end I realized that the
01:23:04that the way they're approaching store
01:23:06value to your point is smart because you
01:23:08do want that kind of certainty and
01:23:10conservatism um but I do think it also
01:23:13limits the range of applications to
01:23:14store value and that there's
01:23:15opportunities for other blockchains to
01:23:17kind of come in and provide these kind
01:23:18of more Tech forward products good good
01:23:22okay okay the next question and Ben this
01:23:23this is a topic kind of close to your
01:23:25heart also so please weigh in uh Dave
01:23:27two-part question Dave wearing asks it
01:23:29seems obvious that one of the uses of
01:23:30web 3 is allowing users to maintain
01:23:32digital property rights and be paid when
01:23:34their content is used um uh what are the
01:23:37early exciting examples in this space
01:23:38and then Manny uh who is an eak uh asks
01:23:41uh what is what are the future of
01:23:43nfts yeah I mean I I have a chapter in
01:23:45the book on nfts which I argue so it's a
01:23:48little more detailed but I essentially
01:23:50argue that that if you look at different
01:23:52form forms of media and how they've
01:23:53responded to the internet that video
01:23:55games are by far the most sophisticated
01:23:57um and that they so the internet is very
01:24:00good at the internet likes to copy
01:24:01things it likes to propagate information
01:24:04and when the video game industry started
01:24:06off on the internet their business model
01:24:08was to sell a video game sort of sell
01:24:10the scarcity and over time they evolve
01:24:13that model and the into the dominant
01:24:14model today which is to give away the
01:24:16video game for free to let people stream
01:24:19it and copy it and let the memes
01:24:21propagate and then to charge for an
01:24:23adjacent layer of value namely virtual
01:24:26Goods right and if you whereas let's
01:24:28contrast that with the music industry
01:24:30they evolved a little bit they now allow
01:24:32streaming but they still have this sort
01:24:33of scarcity model where if you go and
01:24:35share the song and do other things
01:24:37they'll sue you over it right and
01:24:38developers who try to build like as we
01:24:40know from our business if you try to
01:24:42build on top of you know like turntable
01:24:45FM and these types of things that tried
01:24:46to build on top of music or with music
01:24:50as part of the product um had a very
01:24:53tough time legally the result of that is
01:24:55that the video game industry went from
01:24:57about $20 billion in Revenue at the
01:24:58beginning of the internet to 180 billion
01:25:00today and almost every other form of
01:25:02media has been flatted down right so so
01:25:04I think that like the the proof is in
01:25:06the pudding like it has worked very well
01:25:08you want to lean into what the
01:25:09internet's good at and so kind of one of
01:25:11my core Arguments for nfts is it does
01:25:12for other forms of media what virtual
01:25:14Goods did for video games nfts are
01:25:16virtual Goods um they're an adjacent
01:25:18layer of value where you can monetize
01:25:20different things and then give away some
01:25:22of the media right and so you see people
01:25:24doing this with music for example we
01:25:25have a couple of startups who allow
01:25:28musicians to sell digital Collectibles
01:25:30and behind backstage passes and other
01:25:32kinds of things that that complement the
01:25:35music right and they can then get either
01:25:37give the music away for free or be more
01:25:39lock about it or maybe even sell the
01:25:41music whatever and it's an additional
01:25:42Revenue stream um so so I I think that
01:25:48people have overtrained on the idea that
01:25:50nfts are like digital avatars like pfps
01:25:53because that was the I mean one thing
01:25:55people remember is nfts were invented or
01:25:57standardized in 2020 it's literally four
01:25:59years old and even with the kind of
01:26:01downturn there were 8.6 billion in sales
01:26:03of nfts last year so it's actually quite
01:26:05large for four-year-old technology um
01:26:08but a lot of the original stuff was
01:26:09around these avatars and in fact it's a
01:26:12it's a very general technology it's a an
01:26:14nft is an atomic unit of ownership that
01:26:16you can you can put anything in that
01:26:18bucket and you know there's a whole
01:26:20bunch of really interesting projects
01:26:21that we're involved with with um and
01:26:23that just generally in the space where
01:26:24people are sort of saying what could
01:26:26that be another another use of nfts is
01:26:27uh talking about forecaster earlier it's
01:26:29your identity and social network that's
01:26:31your nft your you control but you know
01:26:34the nft lets you control your name and
01:26:36your audience and you can move the nft
01:26:38from one application to another um so
01:26:41it's it's a very broad technology that I
01:26:43think people have so far have just we've
01:26:45only begun to explore what you can do
01:26:47with them yeah and I I I would kind of
01:26:50take a step back and say okay like if
01:26:52you look at a society or a country you
01:26:54know a nation or a world um then like
01:26:57what are the fundamental underpinnings
01:26:59of civilization and like how it evolves
01:27:02and becomes better and you know two
01:27:05things that are really really important
01:27:07um are property rights like there's
01:27:09never been a civilization without good
01:27:11property rights um and then the other
01:27:14being kind of you know money and the
01:27:16fact that you can count on money and
01:27:18that your money and your property is
01:27:20protected um and you know when when kind
01:27:23of societies and civilizations degrade
01:27:25it's usually in some form of um you know
01:27:28no longer protecting your property
01:27:30rights or you know kind of
01:27:32hyperinflation and the degeneration of
01:27:35of the society in the country and I
01:27:37think that you know when we think about
01:27:38cyberspace it's really important um that
01:27:42we get kind of money and property right
01:27:45and that it's a strong foundation for
01:27:47building you know kind of a world that
01:27:49we all want to live in and that's kind
01:27:51of fair and everybody has a chance and
01:27:54all the kinds of things that we want in
01:27:55a society uh and look we're we're seeing
01:27:58you know some you know breakdown of
01:28:01those in the real world uh in the United
01:28:04States lately where you know the the
01:28:05rise of easy money has kind of priced
01:28:07young people it's it's kind of a theft
01:28:09of of money from the Next Generation to
01:28:12the prior generation and um you know
01:28:15it's priced young people out of the
01:28:17housing market we're seeing that and
01:28:18then you know with the large increase in
01:28:21crime and so forth you know people like
01:28:23we're we're seeing kind of the the kind
01:28:25of eroding of a lot of the things that
01:28:28make a society great so I think that as
01:28:30we start you know in digital world or we
01:28:32move a lot of physical world into the
01:28:34digital realm um this is just like a
01:28:38fundamental underpinning to making the
01:28:40kind of world that everybody's gonna
01:28:41want to live in um good okay let's go we
01:28:44got two final questions
01:28:46um uh okay Doomer um asks um you guys
01:28:51are going to love this question um and
01:28:53this kind of goes a little bit back to
01:28:54our our Peter teal debate earlier but
01:28:56this is a different lens um so uh do you
01:28:58agree do you agree that the web three
01:29:00movement can can become a legitimate
01:29:01third political Wing um I.E a gray tribe
01:29:05uh combining Progressive plus
01:29:06libertarian ideals and um those you will
01:29:09probably both recognize I think great
01:29:10tribe was a it's a bology uh it's a it's
01:29:12an idea from our friend bology or at
01:29:14least he he either he either came up
01:29:15with it or he's been popularizing it I'm
01:29:17not sure which but um it's a bology idea
01:29:19and so basically it's yeah it's sort of
01:29:21um the way I I think I describe it chy
01:29:23if you agree with this is it's like it's
01:29:25basically yeah it's basically Tech it's
01:29:27basically Tech libertarian
01:29:29futurism um but not it's not
01:29:31conservative right it sort of has a
01:29:33forward thrust um and it's sort of
01:29:35socially you know at least it's like
01:29:37modern uh let's just say um uh but it's
01:29:40uh you know it is about it is you know
01:29:42sort of an ideology around building um
01:29:43and an ideology around technology and
01:29:45including technology enhancing human
01:29:47Freedom um and so what do we think I
01:29:50would love that if feel like we're
01:29:54it's I don't know sure it's I feel like
01:29:56it's far away right now but um I think
01:29:59that the to biology's point I mean
01:30:01theology I think calls it more BTC and I
01:30:03think that I think there's more of a
01:30:06bology is a tripartite he said it's it's
01:30:08USG CCP BTC is that right those are the
01:30:11three choices yeah I think that that I
01:30:13think he's my sense is Bitcoin is more
01:30:16of a political movement than web web 3
01:30:18is more of a tech movement so to me it's
01:30:21more like I think the web 3 kind of
01:30:24crypto blockchain as more like open
01:30:26source um in that it began as a
01:30:29political Movement Like Richard stalman
01:30:31in the 80s um and that was sort of this
01:30:33anti-copyright you know socialist thing
01:30:36but it morphed into a tech movement um
01:30:39and that's that's kind of how I put
01:30:40myself and the people I'm involved with
01:30:42is more of that like we're trying to
01:30:44we're political in the sense that Linux
01:30:46is political I guess um not in the sense
01:30:48that Bitcoin is but um obviously there's
01:30:52different kind of wings of the movement
01:30:55he says uh this is his tweet where he
01:30:57defines it anyway um I don't Grays were
01:31:00once part of Blues um which just to say
01:31:02progressives but have broken away are
01:31:04increasingly siding with the Reds see
01:31:05for example elon's Twitter or at least
01:31:07against Blues Grays are finally non-blue
01:31:10because Blues have been waging total
01:31:11media war on Grays and reds for the
01:31:13better part of a decade and you know by
01:31:14this this biology yeah yeah this apology
01:31:17but he's like look he's like the blues
01:31:18the blues the progressives right the
01:31:20progressives you know and their and
01:31:21their media arm have been you know just
01:31:23shellacking Tech you know for a decade
01:31:25um Blues arguably lost at media war
01:31:27after 2021 after the population lost
01:31:29trust in them and Twitter got uncensored
01:31:31uh they did capture big Tech and the
01:31:32federal government for blue tribe though
01:31:34so they got something out of it um now
01:31:36with the soft Power Media gone Blues are
01:31:38moving into phase two which is not media
01:31:40War but money War remember they have
01:31:42already weaponized the banking system
01:31:43abroad see for example the Canadian
01:31:45truckers now they're bringing that war
01:31:47home and turning the banking system
01:31:48itself against gray and red um right so
01:31:51sort of kind of saying like you have to
01:31:54like if sort of his if you're on the
01:31:55side of Freedom like you can't be blue
01:31:57anymore and you might not be willing to
01:31:58go red and so there has to be a third
01:32:01way I think that uh um the Third Way is
01:32:05probably going to be against who's ever
01:32:07in power I would think just because none
01:32:10of them are going to go f
01:32:12bology um but that that that's
01:32:14interesting yes what do you think Mark
01:32:17you're the most political
01:32:22I don't know um I mean there's there's
01:32:25different kinds of polit I mean there's
01:32:26the actual there's the actual like
01:32:28actual political fight which is actually
01:32:29fight for like elected office um and you
01:32:31know as you guys know in the US it's
01:32:33very hard you know in Europe they have
01:32:34Coalition governments they have many
01:32:35more political parties um and uh so you
01:32:38can actually have multiple movements um
01:32:39you know you can have four five six
01:32:41parties at a time in the US because of
01:32:42how the electoral system is structured
01:32:44um mechanically you tend to only have
01:32:46two parties and so it makes it hard for
01:32:48you know it's classic problem in US
01:32:49politics it's hard for a third party to
01:32:52um so there's a there's sort of a
01:32:54structural impediment U and and by the
01:32:55way maybe that means that but bi's idea
01:32:58actually happens in Europe first and
01:32:59look there have been some precursors to
01:33:01it there was the pirate party um you
01:33:03know which actually became quite
01:33:04successful I think in Iceland um and um
01:33:06you know there's there's you know
01:33:08there's more and more um sort of polit I
01:33:10say there the European political
01:33:11landscape is Shifting very quickly right
01:33:13now so um yeah maybe that maybe that uh
01:33:17maybe that happens um and then yeah look
01:33:18I you know the other thing is just um I
01:33:21the thing I I would think about a lot on
01:33:22this is just like you know look a lot of
01:33:24politic like most people's politics for
01:33:26most of recorded history right are you
01:33:28know kind of people's offline lives you
01:33:29know kind of by definition like why do I
01:33:31care about politics well it's like you
01:33:32know I've got my job in the real world
01:33:33I've got my possessions in the real
01:33:34world I've got my money in the real
01:33:36world I've got my f you know my friends
01:33:38are in the real world I've got my you
01:33:39know it's it's like it's like you know
01:33:41my ability to speak and politically
01:33:43organized is in the real world and then
01:33:45you know young people now to the extent
01:33:46that they're living more and more their
01:33:47lives online it does make sense that you
01:33:49know sort of Internet politics are going
01:33:50to become more salient and possibly
01:33:52dominant in how they think about things
01:33:54and and sort of therefore what what sort
01:33:55of Internet policies get put in place um
01:33:57and and and correspondingly Ai and and
01:33:59web 3 policies are actually going to
01:34:01become more Central to their entire
01:34:02concept conception of politics okay and
01:34:04then we can close on uh the um final
01:34:08question so Vince asks um Chris is there
01:34:10something you wish because you you're
01:34:11the nature of book publishing you wrote
01:34:12the book a while back um is there
01:34:14something you wish you could have
01:34:15included in the book and will there be a
01:34:19followup I wrote I know the book's 200
01:34:2130 pages I wrote almost twice that much
01:34:24and cut it out because I really wanted
01:34:26the book to be compact um so there's all
01:34:29of that there was some like more
01:34:30technical stuff that I just thought was
01:34:32it was you know it's one of the hard
01:34:33things with a book like this is meant
01:34:34for to be a general audience book and so
01:34:36I really wanted it to be you know
01:34:38accessible and so I cut a lot of that
01:34:41um I mean My Hope Is that the movement
01:34:44grows and succeeds and then there's a
01:34:46need for a follow on book um I think at
01:34:50the moment though this is is probably it
01:34:52for the moment but
01:34:54um yeah I mean I think I'd need uh I'd
01:34:57need more more things to develop to have
01:35:00to feel like the need to explain more or
01:35:02something I feel like I hope this is
01:35:03enough for now but good fantastic on
01:35:06that note and obviously of course
01:35:07anybody who hasn't read the book uh
01:35:08definitely should the book is available
01:35:10in physical bookstores the book's
01:35:11available on Kindle and um is it also on
01:35:13lib gen or should we not talk about that
01:35:15it's on audio and then Li sure yeah I
01:35:17mean I want it to be a so I decided to
01:35:20go one question I get you I think you
01:35:22asked me Mark is why why a traditional
01:35:23publisher I mean it's I think it's
01:35:25traditional Publishers you know can
01:35:27still provide signaling value they get
01:35:29you into book stores I always want to
01:35:30make it as accessible as possible um but
01:35:33yeah I'm hoping to have it sort of be
01:35:34everywhere and and everyone who wants to
01:35:37read a can so um I I would just say
01:35:41definitely read the book um you know if
01:35:44you uh don't have time to read the book
01:35:46read the introduction because it's a
01:35:47good kind of uh shorthand and will make
01:35:50you smart than 99.9% of the people on on
01:35:54this topic good thank you Chris thank
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