Fixing Higher Education & New Startup Opportunities
a16z2024-01-23
24K views|3 months ago
💫 Short Summary
The video discusses the challenges and importance of American universities, emphasizing the need for constructive analysis and innovation in higher education. It explores issues like diversity, standardized testing, research funding, and moral instruction within universities. There are suggestions for new approaches to education, including personalized learning, diverse talent recruitment, and alternative credentialing systems. The conversation also touches on the evolving landscape of education, job market needs, and the potential impact of technological advancements on traditional educational structures.
✨ Highlights
📊 Transcript
✦
The importance of American universities and the crisis they are currently facing.
00:33Universities play a crucial role in society and technology, emphasizing their impact on various aspects of life.
Personal anecdotes are shared to highlight the significance of universities in the hosts' lives.
The discussion aims to provide constructive analysis of university issues from a structural perspective, rather than just criticism.
The goal is to address long-term challenges and improvements needed in the university system.
✦
Higher education system not designed for the majority of 18-year-olds worldwide.
03:45Universities in the US have broadened expectations for college attendance.
Even if all 18-year-olds in the US attended college, only 4% of the population would be accounted for.
96% of kids, including those outside the US, do not have access to higher education.
Potential for new institutions, companies, and research entities to address these issues and opportunities.
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Constituents of modern American universities.
05:43Students, faculty, administrators, donors, and alumni are key constituents discussed in the segment.
The societal impact and scrutiny faced by universities are also highlighted.
Importance of considering goals and stakeholders in addressing issues within the educational system is emphasized.
Complexity of university operations and their role in shaping society is underscored.
✦
Importance of leadership and management in institutions with multiple constituents.
08:24Attracting top entrepreneurs is a priority.
Focus on students as the most important constituent in universities.
Other stakeholders like faculty, administrators, and alumni serve student needs.
Maintaining student focus is crucial for institutional success.
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The segment emphasizes the need to support students in attracting the best and brightest, providing them with optimal experiences and career opportunities.
10:01Managing distractions such as press attention and market forces that influence tuition costs is discussed.
Factors driving up salaries in academia are mentioned as a reason for high tuition fees.
Controlling costs at universities is highlighted, with a focus on the imbalance between administrators and students at elite institutions as a potential area for savings.
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Importance of utilizing AI for tax compliance instead of hiring IRS agents.
13:08AI has significant potential in administrative tasks such as data analysis.
Focus on the impact of prioritizing employees over customers in organizations on business success.
Contrasting private sector bankruptcy with government support for universities.
Discussion on the long-term consequences of prioritizing employees over customers in business operations.
✦
Nonprofits like universities operate without the goal of generating profit, leading to increased expenses and lack of financial scrutiny.
17:16Rising tuition costs are a major issue, with universities increasing prices based on others' actions instead of improving educational quality.
The segment discusses starting a university from scratch and questions the high cost of education, emphasizing the need for efficiency and cost-effectiveness in the education system.
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Importance of lower cost structures in business and education.
18:20Institutions are questioned for not operating at lower costs like in the past, with tuition rates increasing significantly compared to inflation.
Providing students with individual, high-quality instructors could lead to better outcomes.
Historical evidence, such as aristocratic education based on one-to-one tutoring, supports the idea of personalized instruction yielding positive results.
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The effectiveness of one-on-one tutoring in improving student outcomes.
21:55Greek philosophers, such as Socrates, emphasized the importance of individualized tutoring in education.
Systemic interventions in education, like Head Start programs, have often been unsuccessful in improving educational outcomes.
The Gates Foundation highlighted the challenges in education philanthropy, emphasizing the difficulty in scaling up successful interventions.
One-on-one tutoring has consistently shown significant improvements in student outcomes, even moving students from the 50th to the 99th percentile.
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The Bloom 2 Sigma Effect revolutionizes education through personalized one-on-one instruction.
22:25The concept challenges the traditional economic barriers to individualized education, advocating for more personalized teaching methods.
Benefits and drawbacks of one-to-one tutoring versus traditional classroom settings are discussed.
Potential future trends in education costs and widespread adoption of personalized instruction are explored.
The segment emphasizes evolving perspectives on education and the potential impact of personalized learning on student outcomes.
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Importance of student-centered programs in education reform.
25:34Programs should prioritize student success over demographic quotas.
Race or gender-based methodologies negatively impact student outcomes.
Quality education and fair treatment are crucial for all students.
Flaws in prioritizing quotas over student success are highlighted.
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Importance of diversity in tech recruiting.
28:18Targeting underrepresented talent groups such as veterans, blacks, and Hispanics for competitive advantage.
Designing a talent program to recruit from diverse backgrounds.
Involvement of internal talent teams in leading diversity efforts and receiving input from recruiters with experience in underrepresented populations.
Emphasizing the value of attracting people with special skills and sharing a humorous anecdote from a lunch in Meno Park.
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Lack of diversity in Silicon Valley compared to national demographics.
31:33Efforts made to attract more diverse talent through events and screenings.
Focus on talent retention and promotion leading to positive outcomes.
Creation of the Nas Hip Hop Fellowship at Harvard with Henry Lewis Gates.
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Importance of Diversity in University Recruitment
34:01Universities like Harvard are urged to actively recruit talented individuals from the music industry, especially black artists.
Emphasis is placed on the need for institutions to seek talent outside of their usual recruitment processes.
Changing recruitment approaches can benefit both universities and the diverse talent they bring in.
Looking beyond traditional methods and stereotypes is crucial for enhancing diversity and inclusion in academic programs.
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Importance of recognizing individual differences and diversity in interests, talents, and cultures.
37:25Emphasis on certain job categories having a higher representation of either men or women, highlighting the need for diverse perspectives.
Advocacy for a creative approach in evaluating criteria for programs to ensure inclusivity and equal opportunities for all individuals.
Suggestion to broaden criteria to consider contributions to society and importance, rather than solely academic performance.
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Challenges of Equal Distribution in Education and Innumeracy Impact.
39:25Mapping numbers based on demographics poses challenges in creating diverse educational programs.
Innumeracy affects educational programs, especially in recruiting diverse students.
A university trustee's comment reveals misconceptions about racial quotas and recruitment efforts.
Prominent scholars like Henry Louis Gates Jr. and Lonnie Gineer discuss admitting African and West Indian immigrants to meet diversity quotas in universities.
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Disparity in representation between Nigerians and African Americans at Harvard.
42:21Debate on the effectiveness of affirmative action for African Americans.
Criticism of programs designed to assist African Americans.
Financial incentives for admitting Africans due to higher likelihood of full tuition payment.
Proposal to reform university credentialing system for valuable education and decrease in importance of bachelor degrees for job requirements.
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The challenges of the SAT and grade inflation.
44:50Replacing the SAT with grades is difficult due to grade inflation.
Grading on a curve was common in the past but has fallen out of favor.
The segment explores the fairness of grading on a curve.
Grading on a curve may work better in universities than in companies.
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The debate on ranking and firing the bottom 10% of employees in companies like Intel and Microsoft.
46:45The comparison of ranking employees to grading students on a curve and the negative consequences.
The argument against prioritizing self-esteem over practical skills, referencing the issue of student debt.
The importance of effort in achieving success, acknowledging individual differences in talent and capabilities.
The challenge to the idea of hiring only the top performers, with employers recognizing the distribution of talents within groups.
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Importance of identifying strengths and placing individuals in roles where they can contribute the most.
50:56Forcing people into careers that don't align with their talents and passions can lead to resentment and underperformance.
Advocacy for a system that focuses on finding each person's unique contribution rather than imposing roles based on external factors.
Allowing individuals to thrive in areas where they excel leads to better performance and satisfaction.
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The Scandinavian Paradox: highlights greater gender disparities in professions in more egalitarian societies.
52:03In highly restrictive societies, capable women are pushed into safer professions, limiting their choices.
Removal of societal biases leads to pure choice and maximized differences in outcomes based on preferences.
Freer societies see greater dispersion in gender representation in professions.
Prevailing morality often reacts negatively to differences in gender representation in professions.
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Emphasis on pursuing passions and strengths in life rather than equal representation in all fields.
54:55Discussion on the importance of diverse skill sets and talents in different industries.
Value of networking and building relationships across various sectors highlighted.
Critique of conforming to societal expectations and encouragement to excel in areas of passion.
Criticism of lack of diversity in organizations and challenge to idea of imposing uniformity in life.
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Importance of Diversifying Credentialing System in Talent Sourcing.
58:18Widening criteria beyond traditional tests like writing and math to include tests on human relationships, poetry, music, and cultural diversity.
Need to find talent based on merit rather than superficial attributes like race or gender.
Advocating for a more inclusive and innovative approach to talent recruitment and assessment.
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Development of a creativity assessment battery test.
01:00:42Test includes 15 types of creativity such as poetry, literature, art, music, and computer coding.
Test consists of seven levels of aptitude, from personal achievements to national awards.
Most people score zero on the test, showing a lack of interest or encouragement in creative pursuits.
Test results not correlated with traditional academic assessments like the SAT, disappointing universities for not nurturing diverse talents among students.
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Critique of Harvard's use of SAT scores in university admissions.
01:03:47SAT scores are criticized for being an ineffective criterion due to a high number of high scorers, particularly among Asians in STEM fields.
The speaker questions the cap on math SAT scores at 800, proposing that professionals could create a more challenging test.
The current testing methods are challenged for their ability to accurately identify the most qualified candidates.
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Debate on grade capping in standardized testing.
01:04:55SAT could include harder questions beyond 800 points to differentiate top performers.
Criticism arises for limiting talent discovery in an attempt to equalize results among demographic groups.
Emphasis on the importance of measuring diverse talents while embracing diversity and recognizing varying degrees of talent.
The contradictory desire for diversity and uniformity in society underscores the necessity for fair assessment methods in education and employment.
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Starting new universities to address current issues in education.
01:08:03Initiatives like Lambda School and University of Austin are mentioned.
Advantages of starting fresh with new ideas and approaches are highlighted.
Opportunities available with donors, parents, and capable students seeking alternatives.
Challenges of competing with established institutions and their powerful network effects are emphasized.
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Challenges and Opportunities in Higher Education Funding and Innovation.
01:10:58Creating new universities would require substantial funding and overcoming established competition.
Encouraging new ideas in higher education faces obstacles, but competing with existing institutions in specialized areas like electric cars can be more successful.
There is a growing opportunity for varying lengths of degrees, as the traditional four-year model may not align with changing skill demands.
Job performance based solely on college education is being questioned, emphasizing the need for ongoing skill development beyond formal schooling.
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Traditional four-year degrees are being questioned, with alternative models like Lambda School being proposed.
01:11:50Consideration of creating a new type of Ivy League institution for the future to emphasize the need for innovation in education.
Exploration of funding options for such a venture, including philanthropy and donor support.
Hypothetical scenario of wealthy donors investing billions to build a new educational institution from scratch, highlighting the potential for disrupting the current higher education system.
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Importance of aligning with existing industry structures and not taking risks in innovation.
01:15:36Attracting top students through partnerships with Venture Capital.
Focusing on creating a strong alumni network with successful job placements.
Showcasing the benefits of attending University of Austin over other prestigious universities, emphasizing practical experience and connections to top job markets.
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The need for universities to adapt to the information age is discussed.
01:18:12Traditional setups like classrooms, dorms, and cafeterias are deemed insufficient for modern learning.
Access to AI, the internet, and advanced technology is emphasized for effective education.
The conversation explores reimagining educational institutions to better meet the needs of students in the digital era.
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Lack of career guidance and purpose-driven focus in current education system.
01:19:51Institutions prioritize administrative tasks over student development.
Proposal to shift towards AI-integrated universities for personalized guidance.
Smaller, interactive learning chunks and personalized AI tutors suggested for effective learning.
Emphasis on nurturing diverse talents and abilities for future success, advocating for a student-centered approach in education.
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Importance of Diverse Skills in Employees
01:22:40Real-world experiences in education are crucial for skill development.
In-person interactions with peers offer valuable learning opportunities and motivation.
College experience is valuable for young people but should be modernized.
Unbundling in business involves stripping down university functions for potential startup ideas.
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The importance of creating a platform for aptitude and personality testing in specific areas for hiring purposes is discussed.
01:25:42Having a reliable way to assess people's capabilities beyond traditional tests can benefit individuals without elite backgrounds, making them more attractive to employers.
The concept is compared to the creation of the SAT to provide opportunities for underprivileged students.
The potential impact on the university system and the value of credentials from different institutions are considered.
Innovative solutions in education and hiring practices are emphasized as necessary.
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Evolution of standardized testing for employment purposes.
01:28:36Shift away from IQ testing towards diverse and voluntary aptitude assessments.
Supreme Court case making generalized aptitude testing illegal, leading to universities becoming testing grounds.
Exploring implementation of various aptitude tests, including creativity measurements, in a legal and voluntary manner.
Emphasis on potential benefits of rigorous assessments for career alignment.
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The potential of creating high-quality educational courses with top-tier production value and superstar instructors.
01:31:05Platforms such as Udacity, Udemy, and Khan Academy are mentioned as examples.
Khan Academy's unique format and the impact of AI tutoring are highlighted.
The entrepreneurial opportunity in providing engaging and effective online education is emphasized.
Insights are given on the challenges of traditional college experiences compared to innovative approaches proposed.
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Importance of credentials in learning and job markets.
01:34:17Structured environment of physical campuses as a motivator for students.
Difference between intrinsically motivated individuals and those driven by external pressures.
Two types of students: naturally motivated and those who require external incentives.
Influence of high-end institutions and diverse nature of student motivations.
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Tailoring education to specific student needs.
01:35:15Some students may need more structure and pressure to thrive, while others are intrinsically driven.
More privileged students may require additional challenges to stay motivated.
Recognizing and catering to individual motivations is crucial in education.
Exploring alternative approaches to research funding in the research community.
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The segment discusses the difference between research and development, emphasizing research for new knowledge and development for creating products.
01:37:16The historical context of research funding by the government and the significance of tenure for academic freedom are highlighted.
Challenges in the current research environment, including the replication crisis and incentive problems, are addressed.
Alternative research approaches outside of the university setting are briefly touched upon.
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Inefficiency in research funding.
01:39:2590% of research is considered useless.
Importance of five leading institutions in generating valuable output.
Criticism of government funding distribution being overfunded by a factor of 10.
Suggestion to narrow down funding to the top 10% of useful work and researchers for optimal progress in research fields.
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Funding models for research in commercial applications.
01:41:26Philanthropic donations, venture capital, and for-profit approaches are debated.
Programs such as Arc and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute are mentioned.
The Parker Institute for Cancer Research funds breakthrough work on cancer and invests in companies.
Generating patents and spinning out ideas into commercial ventures is emphasized.
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Importance of Philanthropic Efforts in Driving Impactful Research
01:44:27The Chan Zuckerberg Institute is highlighted as an example of philanthropic efforts aiming to cure diseases.
Historical figures like Alan Turing and Claud Shannon are mentioned for their contributions to computer science and logic.
Funding quality work in various fields is emphasized as crucial for driving innovation and research progress.
Philanthropic support is suggested as a key driver of innovation and progress in research.
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Effectiveness of Moral Instruction in Universities vs. Churches.
01:47:02Pastors and priests are seen as more effective in providing moral guidance due to their active involvement with their congregation and real-life challenges.
Universities, focused on academic freedom, may not be the ideal environment for moral instruction given the lack of personal connections and tangible consequences.
Emphasis is placed on the importance of ethical discussions and decision-making in a practical context for real-world impact and accountability.
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Proposal for an Independent Moral University to Address Societal Degeneration.
01:51:08Criticism of the immorality in sports leagues, especially college sports, where employees are not fairly compensated despite generating significant revenue.
Advocacy for restructuring the system to ensure fair compensation for athletes.
Suggestion to separate sports programs from universities to address ethical concerns.
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Discussion on athlete compensation and societal structures.
01:52:23Reference to South Park episode on athletes being paid.
Comparison of adult daycare to corporate campuses for social integration.
Exploration of creating designed communities for cultural integration.
Emphasis on the need for reform in athlete compensation and prediction of negative views on current system in future generations.
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New ideas in the housing and community sector focus on creating a communal living environment similar to a college dormitory.
01:55:11The concept aims to provide a space for individuals transitioning from high school or college into the real world.
The discussion shifts to dating sites, emphasizing the evolution of dating methods over the years.
The importance of credentialing in dating is highlighted, drawing parallels to the validation process in college environments.
Shared identities and credentials are emphasized as significant factors in dating and marriage decisions.
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Potential Shift in Institutions Towards Independent and Internet-Based Options.
01:58:25Traditional institutions such as credentialing agencies, education courses, research bureaus, and think tanks may become less relevant over time.
Current value proposition, including expensive education costs and government guarantees for college loans, is fragile.
The segment suggests a potential cataclysmic impact if these factors were to change.
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Potential collapse or transformation of education system due to devaluation of traditional markers of success.
01:59:31Emphasis on need for universities to reevaluate their value proposition for students.
Possibility of a political revolt against heavily politicized institutions.
Warning of significant decrease in funding for higher education programs reliant on federal support due to shift in public opinion.
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Complexity and length of time required to address issues in tax law.
02:02:15Speculation on potential change due to importance and credibility of certain issues.
Possibility of a tipping point where people may no longer tolerate the status quo.
Plans for future Q&A sessions and content creation on the topic.
00:00right-wing media For Better or For Worse
00:01is just consumed with story after story
00:03after Story of just like you know crazy
00:04hostile things that universities are
00:06doing and so you can imagine a point
00:08where just basically like half or more
00:10of the country just at some point puts
00:11its foot down and its elective rep
00:13Representatives put their foot down and
00:14they're just like we're just not doing
00:15this anymore we're not paying for it
00:16anymore it would not take two years to
00:17figure out how to kill these things from
00:18a legislative standpoint it would take
00:20about 2 minutes
00:21[Music]
00:27y welcome back to the market Ben show
00:30we uh did an episode about a week ago on
00:33the University so kind of the the the
00:35the the prevailing kind of issues in the
00:36universities the the sort of Crisis that
00:38they're going through um uh very
00:41important to I want to reiterate kind of
00:43why why we did we did that one which I'd
00:45encourage people to listen to actually
00:47first if you haven't heard it before
00:48before this one this is part two um but
00:51also kind of why why we're doing it so
00:52you know we're sort of discussing kind
00:53of this kind of rolling crisis that a
00:54lot of the universities particularly the
00:56American universities are going through
00:57right now um very important to
00:59understand you know two things from our
01:00standpoint one is the the reason we're
01:02digging into this topic is really
01:04actually twofold and we we'll talk about
01:06both parts today which is um is both you
01:08know these are like incredibly important
01:10institutions for the country um and for
01:13the people of the country um and you
01:15know by extension for the world so um
01:17you know it's like really critically
01:18important that that what happens at
01:20American universities goes well um and
01:22it's a it's a very big problem you know
01:23not just for them but for for for a lot
01:25of a lot of the rest of us uh when they
01:27don't go well and and and look just Ben
01:29and I talked about this last time but
01:31you know our personal stories obviously
01:32involve you know we we we here where we
01:34are because of the great experiences
01:36that we had at universities um and then
01:38um you know the university both uh uh
01:41teaching process uh generating graduates
01:43and research process of course is kind
01:45of the sort of the the you know the sort
01:47of seedbed of of everything in the tech
01:48industry and Silicon Valley and
01:50everything that we do every day so so
01:52these are important topics um the other
01:53thing worth worth noting is you know
01:55we're not just doing this to to kind of
01:56to kind of criticize we're trying to uh
01:58see if we can be constructive
02:00um and in particular we're trying to
02:02take a look at the the the issues not
02:04through sort of a you know kind of
02:05Moment In Time hot in the news you know
02:07kind of perspective uh but rather sort
02:09of a structural uh standpoint so we're
02:11we're analyzing universities you know as
02:13if they're you know as if they're
02:15systems um and and their structures and
02:17they have incentives um and they have
02:19ways of doing things and those ways of
02:20doing things have built up over a long
02:22time and just the nature of large
02:24organizations and systems that build up
02:26over a long time is sometimes they
02:27accumulate problems and sometimes they
02:29need they need uh you know they need
02:30they need change in Improvement and
02:31reform so so so that's why we think it's
02:34a it's it's a good thing to look at um
02:36you know the other perspective that we
02:37have is that you know there there are um
02:39there are clearly startup opportunities
02:41emerging um and we're going to talk
02:42quite a bit today both about what the
02:45existing institutions could do to maybe
02:47improve um their situations but we're
02:48also going to talk about some of the
02:50some of the startup uh opportunities
02:51that are kind of flowing uh from from uh
02:54from the crisis in higher education and
02:56by the way those startup opportunities
02:57would probably be appearing anyway um
02:59because the higher education system you
03:01know just can't reach most kids um who
03:03who need to get educated around the
03:04world and so there there would be there
03:06would probably be startup opportunities
03:07even without without issues but you know
03:10it may be that if universities can't fix
03:11some of their issues ultimately that
03:13there will be opportunities to build new
03:15institutions new companies new
03:16nonprofits you know maybe new research
03:19uh entities uh and maybe do do more of
03:21of the things that universities have
03:23historically done so we probably need to
03:25fix the old ones and then build some new
03:27ones um just given how fast the world is
03:30evolving yeah I mean look like you know
03:32part of the context for all this is that
03:34universities universities you know
03:35historically only were ever built to you
03:37know train a very small percentage of
03:39the 18year olds you know in the world
03:41each each year um you know they were
03:43never built to I ran the I don't have
03:45the numbers in front of me but you know
03:46the foret the number the number of the
03:48number of people who turn 18 per year
03:51worldwide you know is like it's like a
03:54extraordinarily large number you know
03:55it's many many tens of millions um and
03:58so um the the sort of current higher
04:00education system you know was never
04:02built and is not built to accommodate
04:04that it's built for a small number of
04:06religious Scholars yes originally yes
04:09and then a small number later a small
04:10number of secular Scholars um and uh and
04:13you know in the US the universities have
04:15become sort of a you know a much more
04:17it's much more broad-based expectation
04:19that quoted people go to college you
04:21know as we talked about last time but
04:23but but even if you even if you could
04:24send every 18-year-old in the US to
04:26college you know the US is still only 4%
04:28of the population um and so 96% of of of
04:32kids actually probably more than that
04:33every year 18-year-old kids are outside
04:35the US um and most of them are in places
04:38that don't have you know physical
04:39colleges universities and so there's a
04:41there's a general scaling problem right
04:43which probably needs to be addressed
04:44separately from the existing system
04:45anyway so so there's that so we're gonna
04:48we're going to dive in a lot to all of
04:49that and then we have a lot of great
04:50Twitter questions um which we are going
04:52to um get to uh at the end or if we go
04:55super long be part three we'll do part
04:58three um okay so the the the the sort of
05:01the way I think about it is is uh how to
05:03get started is sort of the question that
05:05we left off at the end of the last
05:06podcast which is sort of the okay um the
05:09last discussion we we went through all
05:11the all the issues and then we kind of
05:12left angling all right what what do you
05:14do about them so this is this is the
05:15what what do you do section um I wanted
05:18to start by talking about this you know
05:20the way we try to always do this in
05:22business is to try to start with like
05:23okay before you figure out what you're
05:24going to do it's like okay what exactly
05:26are your goals um and then and then of
05:29course the next question you know from
05:30what are exactly your goals is sort of
05:31the question of what exactly are your
05:33goals you know for who right like who
05:35you know who who are you trying to
05:37satisfy who are the customers um you
05:39know last time we we listed out the 12
05:41functions of the modern American
05:43University uh which you you can you can
05:45hear all about on that on that last
05:46episode um and then what jumps right out
05:49of the list of sort of the 12 functions
05:51of the modern American University is you
05:53know the universities the way they run
05:55today they certainly have a large number
05:57of different constituents um and so I I
06:00made a list I I came up with I think
06:01there's like 16 or 18 on the list I'll
06:03just go through them I I'll list them
06:04real quickly um students uh faculty
06:08administrators bard of Trustees alumni
06:13donors uh Downstream employers uh who
06:15hire the graduates parents who are very
06:18involved of course immigration officials
06:20um uh sports
06:22fans um Regulators uh
06:26politicians um the Press which is of
06:28course scrutinizes universities all the
06:30time um Downstream policy makers who are
06:33influenced by the science and policy
06:35prescriptions coming out of the
06:36universities and then and then number 15
06:38society as a whole so that was my
06:40society as a whole is a tough customer
06:42by the way who yeah well it very much is
06:44and you know universities universities
06:46have have have have design have designed
06:48themselves from from actually Inception
06:50to have a big impact on Broad Society
06:52you know that's it's sort of one of the
06:53one of the goals is they are trying to
06:54reform Society Advance Society um and so
06:57having put themselves in that position
06:58they're naturally going to get
06:59scrutinized by Society yeah so how do
07:02you think about from a leadership
07:03standpoint right and a management
07:05standpoint or and you know with your
07:07experience on the Columbia board like
07:09but from a leader General leadership
07:10standpoint how do you think about um an
07:12Institute like it you know look we all
07:14know it's hard enough to just like run a
07:15company that just has customers yeah
07:17right or customers and employees or
07:19customers employees shareholders right
07:20you two three four constitues hard
07:22enough H how do you even think about
07:24approaching the job of leading an
07:25institution that has that many
07:27constituents well I do think like
07:30companies do have a lot of constituents
07:33um also but
07:36they're I would say just a little bit
07:38have better Clarity um and
07:42uniformity on which are the most
07:45important constituents so if you look at
07:46us look at andreon haritz so we have
07:49investors you know we've got
07:52entrepreneurs we've got employees of
07:54entrepreneurs we've got our own
07:56employees we have the we have society as
08:00a whole um like all these things to
08:03consider um you know in our kind of
08:06wealth management thing we've got the
08:07kind of wealth management kind of
08:09clientele and all that kind of thing um
08:14but uh I think it's very clear to us and
08:17we try to make clear to everybody in the
08:20firm and I think everybody in the firm
08:21is very clear on it that if we don't
08:23attract the best entrepreneurs in the
08:26world um that none of the other things
08:28matter so so it kind of is okay great
08:32you have all these people who have an
08:34interest in it but you know you got to
08:38get the main thing done and anything
08:41that compromises a prime directive has
08:44got to go and be subordinated and I
08:46think that you know in the
08:48universities partly because of just
08:50sheer size of them you know you have
08:53people who have no concern about the
08:55students at all like large pockets of
08:57the kind of University that are only
09:00focused on kind of one of the other
09:02things and that's that's where I think
09:05um you know it starts to lose its focus
09:08and degrade the product for the most
09:11important constituent which I'd argue
09:13with students yeah so if you were you
09:15know especially with your board
09:16experience um like if you were placed in
09:18charge of one of these tomorrow like how
09:19would you or I maybe it's an unfair I
09:21would say how would you how would you
09:22rank these or maybe that's an unfair
09:24question maybe the question is how would
09:25you even go about figuring out how to
09:27rank them yeah look I I mean I I think
09:30you have to kind of start with students
09:31and then everything you know everything
09:33on the list is a little bit in service
09:36of students to varying degrees so the
09:39faculty right are obviously in service
09:42of the students um the administrators
09:45are in service of the students uh the
09:49alumni are to kind of give money to
09:52support the students so like and and
09:54they're kind of you know depending
09:57on you know what your issue is in
10:01attracting the best kind of brightest
10:04students and giving them an experience
10:08and a kind of product and a career the
10:11things that they're looking for that's
10:13optimal um you know you would kind of
10:16prioritize things to get you to there uh
10:19and like there's always things that you
10:20know Regulators are you know something
10:23that any business has got to mitigate or
10:25you know deal with and so forth and
10:27that's not going to be a primary but you
10:29have a small team hopefully that's
10:31focused on that um but but I think you
10:35know you can easily lose the thread if
10:39you know you manage to noise levels or
10:42you know the Press is probably the most
10:44distracting one right because if the
10:46Press calls us a name or says we're not
10:48doing our job then all of a sudden like
10:50a huge focus goes over there and that
10:54you know if you're not careful that'll
10:55distract from uh you know what you want
10:59want um for your kind of main
11:01customer and that's and that's I I think
11:06to a large degree you know what's
11:08happened um which is why like cost like
11:10how is it possible that tuition has
11:12gotten so high like what the hell were
11:15you optimizing for that let you think
11:18that your students wanted like that was
11:20a good idea um and I think there were
11:23some Market Corruptions right where uh
11:26the government's providing um loans to
11:29students so that kind of Jack you know
11:31that led to Upward pressure um and then
11:34there's you know other things like
11:37professors can get jobs in the private
11:39sector that you know which is a kind of
11:42a more scalable sector in terms of
11:43making money um that could pay you know
11:47potentially a lot more than you could
11:48pay an Academia so that drive salaries
11:50up and and so forth so there's a lot of
11:52factors that lead to that but like at
11:53the end of the day like how the hell do
11:54you end up with a product that costs
11:57$300,000 and gets the average student a
12:00job that's worth you know like 50, how
12:03are they ever going to pay back $300,000
12:05if they only make $50,000 a year like
12:07that's insane um and that's that's kind
12:10of where the I I think the product for
12:13the student has fallen apart uh and so
12:15maybe that's a good place to start and
12:17like okay so what would you do to get
12:21cost at the University under control and
12:24I think you know one of the kind of big
12:26things that we've learned which is you
12:29know it's stunning um when you hear it
12:32but like it got there incrementally
12:35obviously which is you know at many of
12:37the kind of elite institutions the
12:40number of Administrators outnumbers the
12:42number of
12:43students right and it's
12:47like
12:49okay that's an opportunity for savings
12:52um and I think like if you just tighten
12:54your belt you'd go okay like maybe we
12:56can do a 20% reduction there and so
12:58forth
12:59but if you think about it a different
13:01way and this is I me to me it's very
13:03analogous to uh you know we had a debate
13:06recently when the Biden Administration
13:08hired 86,000 new IRS agents and people
13:12were like you know it was very partisan
13:15debate as it always is like you know why
13:17are these people coming after my money
13:19like what are you cheating on your taxes
13:21da but that wasn't really the
13:23interesting thing the interesting thing
13:25was you obviously anybody kind of in our
13:28business would go well you could have
13:30just hired seven good software engineers
13:34and they would have done a far better
13:36job than 86,000 agents at figuring out
13:39who was cheating on their taxes because
13:41it's like it's a data it's a fors
13:43problem like this is what computers are
13:45amazing at and AI is you know people
13:48talk about what AI is good at I'll tell
13:50you what AI is really good at filling
13:51out forms looking at forms getting data
13:54out of forms comparing that data to the
13:56what the data should be figuring out
13:58things anomalies in the data that no
14:00human could you know it's amazing at
14:02that
14:04and well like could AI do all these
14:07administrative tasks could you just get
14:09rid of like that whole thing or like
14:12whatever 95% of it and then you know
14:14you're you're starting to get cost back
14:16where they are well if if I could just a
14:18couple things on that so um so one is it
14:20beges the question of who who who you're
14:22who your constituency is because if if
14:24if your top constituency is the
14:26administrators to the extent that the
14:28insti being run for it for itself right
14:30then obviously that that's a direct
14:32threat yeah and look I think that's a
14:34you know that's always a thing in every
14:35organization right like one of your
14:37constituencies are your employees but
14:39when your
14:40employees um take precedent over your
14:43customers that's usually the end of the
14:44business right like this this is kind of
14:46the the the pattern um you know in the
14:49private sector you tend to go bankrupt a
14:51lot faster because there aren't
14:52government subsidies and tax credits and
14:55you know you don't get all these there's
14:57so many goodies that the universities
14:59you know have access to and are part of
15:01their constituents that that's not uh
15:04you know that's not something that
15:05happens in business but eventually over
15:08time in the long run if the employees
15:10become more important than the customers
15:12you get to the same end yeah um uh one
15:16of the sort of quirks and the incentives
15:18uh of the whole thing see if this this
15:19makes sense is that you know one one of
15:21the one of the parties that's not a
15:23constituency is not a constituent to
15:25your point you just made is shareholders
15:26right so so um for companies have
15:29shareholders uh the universities are
15:31nonprofits they don't um but the
15:33consequence very interesting incentive
15:34consequence of being a nonprofit which
15:36is a nonprofit right the whole point is
15:38that you're not you're not for profit
15:39you're not trying to generate profit and
15:41so you're sort of implicitly trying to
15:43break even and so if you have the
15:46opportunity to have rapidly ramping
15:48revenues because of subsidies um you
15:50then actually have every reason in the
15:52world to ramp expenses at the same rate
15:54right you you you have no generate
15:56massive margins exactly right right
15:58right right right exactly like it's not
15:59your purpose to generate margins you
16:00wouldn't be able to do anything with the
16:01money anyway you might even it might
16:03even cause problems because it would
16:04cause people to scrutinize what's going
16:05on um and so there's this there's this
16:08thing where the the with a nonprofit uh
16:11the the um the the expense statement you
16:13know will scale to meet the the
16:15available
16:16funding sort of on on autopilot right to
16:18to to make sure the thing goes to break
16:20even and this is sort of this is the
16:21counterargument to people to argue that
16:23nonprofits are somehow you know you know
16:24better lined up to do good things than
16:26for-profits which is like okay what if
16:27they're actually wired to just grow
16:28expenses to the Moon you know and
16:30basically on the taxpayer dollar yeah I
16:32I think that you know there's definitely
16:34an aspect of that um and I think that
16:38you you know and the kind of the math
16:40the University math is a little bit you
16:41know if we
16:43um if we can raise prices then we will
16:47and they kind of Benchmark against each
16:48other so you know student loan money
16:51pours in Harvard raised their tuition we
16:55can raise our tuition like and you know
16:57just kind of cast skates down the system
17:00and you know that kind of translates
17:02into higher salaries more administrators
17:04more this more that and and so forth um
17:08but yeah but it doesn't it's it
17:10certainly needn't be that way and I
17:13think the idea of lowering tuition is a
17:16good idea I mean if you just if you were
17:18to you know we'll get into this but if
17:19you were to start a University from
17:22first principles um like why would it
17:26cost 60 $70,000 a year like that that's
17:31outrageous or it seems outrageous like
17:33to you know
17:35educate a student like there must well
17:38we know efficient way to do that yeah
17:41well and it's one it's one of these
17:42things where you can just look at what
17:43it cost 20 years ago um and you can look
17:46at the fact that it's risen the cost has
17:47risen much faster than inflation and
17:49then you can just ask the question are
17:50the results better than they were 20
17:51years ago yeah um right and so it's sort
17:54of by definition it's like okay what
17:56what if we this is this something you
17:57see in business also which is is just
17:58like okay what if we just went back to
18:00the cost trure we had 20 years ago or
18:02five years ago yeah right and like what
18:04the to ask the people who are actually
18:06running it by the way correct but like
18:09if you're looking right exactly but if
18:10you're looking outside in like it it is
18:12a really key question in other words
18:13like you've proven historically that you
18:15can do it at a lower cost structure
18:17because you were doing it at a lower
18:18cost structure yeah right and so there
18:20there actually you know it's like this
18:22is one of the the reason I bring it up
18:23is like you can't find an institution
18:26you can't find a university today that's
18:28trying to do what you're describing like
18:29as you said they Benchmark against each
18:30other they're all on the same track so
18:32you could you could you could kind of
18:34say okay that's sort of some sort of
18:35sort of inductive proof that it's not
18:36possible to do what we're saying because
18:38like nobody's even trying but the
18:39counter argument to that is no it is
18:41possible to do it and we know it because
18:42they were all doing it 20 years ago yeah
18:44and in Real by the way right like you
18:46know inflation adjusted because
18:47tuition's grown at more than double the
18:50rate of inflation yeah so it's something
18:52like triple it's like something like
18:53triple the rate of inflation on a
18:54sustained basis yeah so so clearly
18:58clearly well the other thing that's
18:59really interesting
19:01is okay if you're at
19:04$60,000 a year or like
19:08above that's a probably a little more
19:12than the cost of having a like full-time
19:16like very smart instructor for your
19:17child or for your teenager whatever
19:21right like so so you could literally
19:22assign every student like a really good
19:26instructor to teach them all these
19:27subjects
19:28um full-time like no other students just
19:32one
19:33student and it it would seem like you'd
19:36get uh potentially a better outcome with
19:38that that method so like once you get to
19:40that level of
19:42absurdity um it's probably time to take
19:44a look at it and uh well let's talk yeah
19:47let's talk about that for a second
19:48because there's actually a lot of
19:49historical evidence been for what you
19:50just said so um so one is aristoc if you
19:52go back in time aristocratic education
19:55in Prior societies it was always one
19:57toone tutoring like the the royal family
19:59like The Offspring of royal families
20:00were always tutored one to one and then
20:02you have these amazing historical
20:03precedents and Alexander the Great is
20:05kind of the the apotheosis of this
20:07because he his tutor was Aristotle right
20:10and which is pretty good right and then
20:12and then you know even like the Greek
20:13philosophers like Socrates and all those
20:15guys um you know their day job was you
20:18know what they did in the mornings was
20:19they did one-onone tutoring uh to the to
20:21you to K to kids in in Athens and then
20:23in the afternoon they hung out with the
20:24aor and and talked about things but they
20:26their job was actually tutoring and you
20:28know that was obviously an amazing
20:30amazing civilization so um so like there
20:32there's a lot of like specific hisorical
20:34historical precedent and then there's
20:35this thing in the education research
20:37which is really striking so one one of
20:38the things in education research
20:39generally is that it basically doesn't
20:42it basically fails it's like basically
20:43Ed sort of all of the attempts to come
20:45up with systemic interventions to
20:46improve educational outcomes basically
20:48fail and this has been the case for for
20:49for many ter of like pedagogy and things
20:52Beyond tutors is that is that how you're
20:54think about it yeah they just don't Mo
20:55most things you want to do whether it's
20:56Head Start or this or that or you know
20:59laptops in the classroom you just name
21:00any number of things where people have
21:02tried to inject money or new practices
21:03into the classroom at any level and
21:05basically basically it's the null
21:07hypothesis keeps proving out over and
21:08over which is they just don't change
21:09anything and so and and actually it's
21:11funny that the Gates Foundation actually
21:12right was just very heavily involved in
21:14education philanthropy actually put out
21:15a report uh a couple years ago where
21:17they they kind of go through this in
21:18detail and it's it's very kind of
21:19discouraging in the sense of it's just
21:21it's really like look it's easy to say
21:24like a good teacher will do better but
21:26it's it's much much harder to say we're
21:28going to make a million teachers better
21:30right so so so so even the things that
21:32work in the micro level they just they
21:33just don't scale there is one exception
21:35there is one educational intervention
21:37technique that reliably um uh generates
21:39better outcomes and in fact it generates
21:41what are called two Sigma better
21:42outcomes so two standard deviations so
21:44it's an intervention that routinely
21:45takes kids who would score at the 50th
21:47percentile of outcome and moves them to
21:48the 99th percentile of outcome and it's
21:50one-on-one tutoring yeah one one you
21:53know this is also true with autistic
21:55kids they've done similar research and
21:57the one thing that work is oneon-one
21:59tutoring um or the one thing that's
22:01proven of all the inter interventions
22:05consistently there is a professor UCLA
22:08Evar lovas who who kind of proved that
22:11out so that that that's it's very
22:12consistent across all types of students
22:15interestingly right right exactly and so
22:17if if you want to look at there's this
22:18thing called the bloom 2 Sigma effect
22:20the the researcher who did the work on
22:21this his name is BL Bloom so it's called
22:23the bloom 2 Sigma effect and it's kind
22:24of this great it's kind of this great
22:25white whale of Education which is like
22:27wow we actually know how to make
22:28education look much better than it is
22:30it's just it's just historically been
22:32economically impractical there's just no
22:33way that you could afford to have a
22:35oneone a one to one until now
22:39until the stud loan money should go to
22:43you know quite possibly right yeah well
22:45by the way it's also good like you know
22:47one of the big uh kind of critiques of
22:50Academia I think from people like us uh
22:53but you know more so it's just that like
22:56when you go into Academia you're in this
22:58sort of bubble of a world so if you're
23:01kind of coming up with new social
23:03science or theories or or what have you
23:07you know you're testing them among like
23:09you're kind of wrapped in people like
23:11yourselves but if you go back and you
23:13say well socrates's ideas at least had
23:15to stand up to his students in a much
23:17more direct way because it's a
23:19one-on-one like they're gonna have you
23:23know they're going to have questions
23:24with us where I think that if you're
23:26kind of elevate yourself to you know
23:28here I am King of the class um and you
23:32know I'm going to give you a grade so
23:35you better not um you know say anything
23:38nasty about my research like that's a
23:40very different kind of a thing I think
23:43um so so so you know it could be helpful
23:46on both sides in a way although it is it
23:49doesn't quite take the expenses down but
23:51it would hold them
23:52steady or have one tutor every three
23:55students or something right yeah but
23:56look it's also the reference it's like
23:58and look the expectation I think has to
24:00be that look if if nothing if current
24:02trends continue then tuition will keep
24:04rising at 3x the rate of inflation or
24:05something like that a tutor would cost
24:08yeah yeah we'll we'll have we'll have a
24:10followup to this podcast you know five
24:11or 10 years from now and it'll have
24:13crossed the million dollar Mark right
24:14per student right and and at that point
24:17at that point the economics actually
24:18become quite overwhelming yeah in the
24:19direction of one toone instruction so so
24:21so sitting here today it sounds crazy
24:23that you would make this switch but it's
24:24starting to sound sane and and so it's
24:26it's worth um it
24:28it it's interesting to at least have
24:29like a a potential like an index to
24:32potential competitive system yeah um at
24:35least for the sanity check um so so
24:38anyway with that in mind so we we
24:39immediately launched in kind of one of
24:40the more one of the More Pie in the Sky
24:42ideas but let let's go back to like the
24:43you know the sort of you know the
24:45challenge of like you're you're you're
24:46put in charge of one of these
24:47institutions tomorrow um and you know
24:50you're responsible for the turnaround or
24:51the or the the reform that needs to
24:53happen um uh which by the way and look
24:55you know a lot of smart people at the
24:56trust with truste level and president
24:58level and donor level and so forth
24:59they're trying to reform the existing
25:00schools so I think it's worth worth
25:02talking about that so so Ben let's talk
25:04about the the fix the university uh kind
25:05of plan um uh and uh you you you wrote
25:09an outline prepping this and so if you
25:11want I can I can go through it Point by
25:12point or you could just launch let me
25:14get into a thing that um kind of will
25:18illustrate the kind of customer problem
25:21and the systems thinking issue which is
25:24um and I you know I hate to get into it
25:27because it's controversial but I'm not
25:28going to get into the controversial
25:30aspect which is kind of this whole
25:32diversity Equity inclusion and how these
25:34programs are designed um and I think and
25:38I'll just contrast it with the way we
25:40designed our program which you know we
25:43call it a talent program but it's
25:45essentially the same sort of thing uh
25:49because we designed ours with the kind
25:52of potential employees in mind and I
25:56think that the uh the system that was
25:59designed for the University was designed
26:00more with the press in mind so you know
26:03how can we have a population that
26:07reflects America um was kind of the goal
26:11as opposed to um what's the best product
26:17opportunity for students in populations
26:20where we not doing a good job of
26:22recruiting them right like very
26:24different ideas on you know how you
26:27would start the design and so if you
26:30start the design with okay we need 14%
26:32black students whatever percent Jewish
26:34students this percent white students Etc
26:37and by the way we've got
26:39Legacy and and this kind of thing then
26:43you would kind of that forces you into a
26:47methodology that is kind of whatever
26:50race or gender based where you're like
26:52literally having them ident
26:53self-identify themselves on their
26:56applications and theny trying to kind of
26:58funnel them through there what's the
27:00problem with that well there's a lot of
27:01like very weird side effects like first
27:04of all like if you look at graduation
27:06rates or you know outcomes or so forth
27:09for divorced students are much worse
27:10than for your main students so like
27:13that's like if you're designing for the
27:14student you would never design it that
27:16way that would be like an important
27:17metric but that's not the important
27:19metric the important metric is how many
27:20you let in um and so you know that's
27:24corrupting then the the second
27:26corrupting thing is everybody knows
27:28about that checkbox and so once you know
27:31the student arrives now I'm like a
27:33little bit of a second class citizen
27:35because people are going to judge well
27:37you could say well that's racist to say
27:39that well yeah but you set it up like
27:41people don't unsee like I apply I check
27:44you know my Asian box or whatever that
27:46I'm checking I know there's other boxes
27:49and then like I read the news so I know
27:52like how that works and so like that
27:54kind of whole design based on trying to
27:57achieve a goal so that the New York
27:59Times says I'm not racist as a trustee
28:02or a faculty or whatever uh gets you to
28:04that outcome now you contrast that like
28:07so how would you design it if you're
28:08designing for the customer well I can
28:09tell you because like so when we started
28:12the firm and and this was it's important
28:14to know this is pre me too pre George
28:16Floyd pre When anybody cared about any
28:18of this stuff in Silicon Valley um and
28:22so what we kind of said was like how do
28:25we get competitive advantage on tent and
28:29we thought well there are certain Talent
28:31groups that don't get recruited and
28:33certain Talent groups that are over
28:34recruited in Silicon Valley what are
28:37under what are you know computer science
28:39students from Stanford are heavily
28:41recruited MIT students so forth so we
28:43started with well what about the second
28:45tier the top students the second third
28:48tier universities in computer science
28:49can we go after those and you know we
28:51put them on our list the second one was
28:53veterans veterans uh don't make their
28:56way to select on Valley um often you
28:59know because they just don't know that
29:01they're welcome there or whatever you
29:02know whatever reason um so that could be
29:04an advantage and you know they they tend
29:08to be good at like you know things that
29:10we need like very
29:13loyal you know trained uh in leadership
29:16and kind of process development things
29:18that we really kind of lacked in
29:19technology so we had a you know a team
29:22to recruit veterans um and then you know
29:25we had a the other kind of two that if
29:27you just looked at the numbers that were
29:28way low were like blacks and Hispanics
29:30and so we had teams for that so I was in
29:32I was in charge of that part um by the
29:34way like note that because it's a talent
29:37program we didn't hire anybody to run
29:39diversity and you know like these
29:41colleges to run the programs they have
29:43have like hundreds of people but if it's
29:45just Talent then the people who are in
29:47charge of talent which is like of course
29:49you know people who run the firm um okay
29:52so early on like we're we're probably
29:542010 2011 now um I'm kind of working on
29:58this problem and you know I'm getting
30:01kind of input from people I know who
30:03have recruited from those populations
30:06who know them who know the special
30:08skills that might exist how how to
30:11attract people and so forth and I'm at
30:14uh and this is a very funny story to me
30:17um so I'm at lunch in Meno Park at a
30:21restaurant called Stax which you know
30:22well um with Steve Stout who you know
30:26kind of came from entertainment industry
30:28is kind of you know which is you know in
30:31music in particular and rap music in
30:32particular so like dominated by African
30:35Americans um and you know I'm talking to
30:38him about it and he says Ben do you know
30:40why there are no black people in Silicon
30:42Valley just like that he says it and I
30:44said no why are there no black people in
30:46Silicon Valley he said look around there
30:48are no black people in Silicon Valley
30:50and like literally he was the only black
30:52person in all of the stacks is a pretty
30:54big restaurant it's the only person and
30:56so I was like oh that's interesting and
30:58I looked up you know so United States is
31:0014.3% black but paloalto Meno Park
31:04you're talking 2% and so like right away
31:07you go okay this isn't even an
31:09attractive place to live or for whatever
31:11reason people haven't even moved here so
31:13like maybe we need to start there and so
31:16what did we do we you know we did film
31:19screenings and Gatherings and meetups
31:22and barbecues and kind of try to get to
31:24know the people that we wanted to
31:26recruit know what would make for a good
31:28work environment for them by just
31:30spending like regular time and then we
31:33start to go okay here's a place in The
31:36Firm where we need this Talent we
31:38already know all the people we know
31:39who's the best we've spent like we've
31:42invested the time and we're going to get
31:44them and so then you come to the firm
31:48and our retention our promotion rights
31:50and so forth are very good because we
31:52were always focused on the talent we
31:54were never F we never cared about the
31:55New York Times because at that time the
31:57New York Times didn't care about it um
32:00and so like you just get to a very
32:03different outcome when you focus on a
32:05different customer and I'm going to kind
32:08of tell the the last part of the story
32:10just so you I can map it back to the
32:13university um
32:16so ye a few years ago maybe it was five
32:19years ago Henry Lewis Gates who is the
32:22uh very famous very uh talented
32:25professor of african-amer American
32:27history at Harvard uh called me up and
32:30because he you know wanted to basically
32:32raise money from me and he has this
32:34thing The Hip Hop archive at Harvard and
32:36he said Ben I want to create a
32:38fellowship called the Horowitz hip hop
32:39fellowship at Harvard and I go well skip
32:43like if you call anything that then
32:45everybody's GNA hate me because Horowitz
32:47hip hop like sounds like really you know
32:49effed up uh I said but I have a friend
32:52Nas who deserves to have a hip-hop
32:55Fellowship named after him
32:57and I'll call Nas and see if he wants to
33:00do it and you know we go through that
33:02and we call it the nas hipop Fellowship
33:04so then you know they want to have a big
33:06event at Harvard and invite Nas there
33:08you know which they do and I get a call
33:11you know leading up to the event from
33:13Lisa new who some of you may know she's
33:16married to Larry Summers who was
33:18interestingly fired as president of
33:20Harvard for saying something you know
33:22non- diverse uh and uh she said Ben you
33:26know I've been reading Nas's lyrics I
33:29said you've been reading his lyrics She
33:31said yeah I said you haven't been
33:32listening to his album she's like no no
33:34no just reading the lyrics I'm like okay
33:36you know the albums are good too but
33:38whatever and she said you know like this
33:40he's so good like I can't even believe
33:42how good this guy is like I'm talking
33:44like Ralph Waldo Emerson Walt Whitman
33:46he's like that level good um and I was
33:50like wow that's amazing but the thing
33:52that I realized when she said that is
33:55Harvard never recruited Nas or anybody
33:58like Nas and if you think about it right
34:01black people dominate dominate music in
34:04the United
34:05States so why aren't you looking for the
34:08talent doing the right things to recruit
34:11them why are you looking for the color
34:13and that's I think I think a lot of the
34:16things at the universities if you're
34:17going to take a systems view of it
34:19you've got to start back there and say
34:22like how do we get you know how do we
34:25find the talent that we just our regular
34:28process doesn't get to change our
34:30process change our way of doing things
34:32to get to that talent and then like it's
34:34going to be better for us better for the
34:35talent better for the mission all those
34:38kinds of things as opposed to letting
34:40some outside for us tell us what we
34:42should be doing um and I think that's
34:44you know that's really emblematic of a
34:48lot of the things that I think have gone
34:49sideways in the University when it comes
34:52to you know diversifying the the student
34:55body yeah so let me let me if you yeah
34:58so let me let me steal man let me steal
35:00man the question right uh that you get
35:02in response to this and I I'll use my
35:03special skill here I'll use my special
35:06skill here of I'm an obsessive on all
35:08these topics and so I try to try to be
35:09able to think about it from from all the
35:10points of view so I'll play I'll play
35:12Super W here for a second um which has
35:14like look been like you know the whole
35:16point of the Dei programs like the
35:18universities is to try to like make sure
35:19that every field like engineering for as
35:21an example has like equal representation
35:23by population um it feels like you're
35:26arguing that should give up on that in
35:28favor of an approach that sounds like it
35:30involves stereotyping um which is we
35:32shouldn't try to you know we should we
35:34should take away the focus of recruiting
35:35black people in engineering program we
35:36should increase the focus on taking
35:38black people to the music program and we
35:39should do that on the basis of a
35:40stereotype that black people are better
35:42at music than than an engineering like
35:45how how do you yeah how do you yeah how
35:46do you like explain that how do you
35:48explain that given the given the moral
35:49framework people are starting with well
35:50look I mean I think I I I think the the
35:53truth of the matter is is um look
35:57different everybody's an first of all
35:59like everybody is an individual and
36:01should be treated as such in that sense
36:04um but like I think anybody with half a
36:08brain well who's observant can observe
36:13some kind of very obvious things about
36:15different populations that they're
36:16interested in different things like
36:18people have different interests um like
36:20so forget about even Talent or this or
36:23that and it goes by group and by culture
36:25and so forth and this is you know um
36:29there are things like every comedian
36:31makes jokes about you know men like to
36:33sit around and watch sports and you know
36:36women like to watch other things and so
36:38forth and that's very bad to say these
36:40days obviously um but if you look at
36:43just job categories you know I think
36:46veterinarians are 80% women um and
36:50nurses is like much higher than that
36:54uh those are good
36:57jobs psychologist by the way at the at
36:59the University level we were just
37:00psychologists are it's up out like 90 or
37:0295% women now yeah and I think there's
37:05nothing wrong with that and then you
37:06know similarly like coal miners are
37:09almost all men you know people work in
37:11like oil rigs are almost all men you
37:14know MMA fighters are mostly men
37:16although there are women who do it and
37:17there's nothing wrong with that and so
37:19like there are I think you do have to
37:22you know in any kind of program where
37:24you're trying to
37:25get you know and the whole point of
37:27diversity is diverse interest diverse
37:29Talent right or ought to be anyway and
37:33so if you're going into you know a
37:36population that's got a different
37:39culture and very likely different
37:40interests and you know and by the way
37:43everybody's got different genetics too
37:46then you kind of have to be a little
37:48more creative about just saying we're
37:52only gonna like if you if you say we're
37:54only gonna look at you know these test
37:58scores and these grades and these kinds
37:59of courses then obviously like those
38:02populations aren't showing up on that
38:04that's why you have the program so you
38:06can either go well we'll just still put
38:10them there where they haven't shown an
38:11interest or an
38:13aptitude yet or like or or some of these
38:15students have whatever or we can broaden
38:18our criteria to things that make big
38:21contributions to society and are
38:23important and people may be like able to
38:26do better than our friends the white and
38:29Asians like over here um and so like
38:33that's the choice you have I mean you
38:34know like and and I think it's just a
38:37better choice so yes you're not going to
38:39get equal distribution just like you
38:41know like you don't get equal
38:43distribution in almost anything in life
38:46um it doesn't even make sense math Wise
38:48by the way right like because the
38:51population is 14% first of all like 14%
38:54in total across age groups not 18y old
38:57so like right you're already off
39:00um and then we're going International so
39:02you're way off and so you're mapping to
39:05a number that's a fake number and now
39:08you're not just mapping it to the
39:09university you're trying to map it into
39:11every subject and this is just like it's
39:14just it's almost the American epidemic
39:18and innumeracy is kind of affecting the
39:20whole logic of how these programs work
39:23and the problem is it's to the detriment
39:25of the people you're trying to recruit I
39:26give you a very uh good anecdote on this
39:28so you and I just had a breakfast with a
39:32kind of prominent trustee at one of the
39:34most important universities in the world
39:36and he made like a very off-hand comment
39:39which he thought was the most obvious
39:40thing in the world that really kind of
39:43stopped me in my tracks which he said
39:45look even if we accepted every black
39:47applicant we W hit
39:4914% right and so you're so
39:52unattractive as a top university in the
39:54world to that pop population that that
39:58you can't even touch that number so your
40:00problem is obviously you know like not
40:03in you know making race the cor your
40:06your problem is you don't even know what
40:08you're looking for you don't know what
40:09they're interested in you don't know how
40:11to create an environment you know that
40:13that that's beneficial where they're GNA
40:15have great careers coming out of it you
40:17haven't done any of the real work you're
40:19just trying to like meet some number
40:21that doesn't even make any sense and
40:24that's to me that's the issue
40:26I want take it a step further just
40:28double down this is a real issue right
40:29now and real issue for many people
40:31including as you said the people that
40:32everybody's trying to help um so your
40:35your friend Henry Lewis Gates longtime
40:36professor at Harvard actually was was
40:38pointed out 20 20 years ago I think all
40:39the way back in like 2004 there there's
40:41a big article in the New York Times
40:43archives is really interesting uh from
40:45that era and he the two sources for it
40:46were him and then lonni gineer who was
40:48one of the top black law professors in
40:49the country at the time I think also
40:51Harvard maybe also Harvard professor and
40:53later she was like almost on the Supreme
40:55Court at one point um so these two very
40:57highly respected black Scholars um you
40:59know experts professors and they they
41:00they made this case at the time they
41:01said look what these institutions are
41:03actually doing um is they're bringing in
41:05African and West Indian immigrants um to
41:07satisfy the African-American quotas yes
41:09well that that is actually what's
41:10happening there are more Nigerians I
41:12believe there's more Nigerians at
41:14Harvard than African Americans right
41:16yeah right and and of course like look
41:18at an individual level you know fine you
41:20know great you know great know I'm
41:22totally in favor of having like highly
41:24talented Africans and you know nothing
41:26to do with Somalians like
41:29genetically this is the weird thing
41:31about this race theory that people are
41:33kind of promoting is yes they're not
41:36even like related to um actual races I
41:40mean or actually genetics or it's just
41:43some weird government category
41:45government over over over categorization
41:47and and then you know specifically back
41:48to like what everybody thinks they're
41:49trying to do which is if you're trying
41:50to help
41:51African-Americans um right and and your
41:53answer to it is we have to bring in lots
41:55of like literal Africans and West
41:56Indians or some or other other
41:58population groups to do it then you C
41:59like some again to your point like
42:00something has gone wrong in pursuit of
42:02the goal of helping African-Americans
42:04yeah I think look I think it's clearly
42:05not working also in the yeah I mean
42:07there were there you know with the kind
42:09of ruling on affirmative action there
42:10were so many studies that showed that um
42:14it didn't actually help
42:16African-Americans 50 years you know
42:18forget whether you think it's a good
42:19idea a bad idea or fair or not fair the
42:21results were really bad and I think part
42:24of the reason the results were bad is
42:25way the kind of programs were designed
42:27and the you know and that like most of
42:31the people were African anyway not
42:33African-American right
42:35so exactly um so U well the other the
42:39other benefit to the Africans is they
42:40they pay they're more likely to pay full
42:42Freight right so from a universe from a
42:44financial standpoint internal well
42:46that's right the other incentive if you
42:48if you're taking expenses through the
42:50roof you need some people paying full
42:51Freight right and which turns out to be
42:53IM immigrants um okay good so let's you
42:56know that's obviously a big a big chunk
42:58of the of the reform uh fix fix the
43:00university thing Ben let's let's let's
43:01walk through the rest of the U the fix
43:02the university turnaround plan yeah so
43:05you know one big thing is the
43:07credentialing system right which um you
43:10know and this again like this is
43:12probably the most important thing to the
43:15student is that that once I pay all that
43:19money once I spend all that time that at
43:23the end of it um I've got something very
43:26valuable uh and I think that there was
43:28just a uh report that like half of
43:32companies are dropping their like
43:34bachelor degree requirement which kind
43:36of says well the credential no longer
43:39means much uh and so I think
43:45that you know if you don't like the SAT
43:50part then you probably need to fix the
43:53SAT part so it you know like make it
43:57better but it does prove something to
44:00employers um and it's very hard
44:03to you know get rid of a measure like
44:05that
44:08because you know what are you replacing
44:10it with you're replacing it with grades
44:12which we talked about last time there's
44:13massive grade inflation um so that
44:16doesn't really work uh you know are you
44:18doing recommendations like what are you
44:20doing that that an employer can't do
44:22themselves and the the Brilliance of the
44:24SAT by the way is
44:26as an employer it's actually illegal to
44:28do a general aptitude test so if you're
44:31looking for just whatever and as you
44:34know we sometimes call him in sales an
44:35all-around athlete um yeah then or an
44:38all-around kind of mental
44:41athlete you know you'd like to have some
44:43aptitude measure and if you don't like
44:45the aptitude that's being measured then
44:47you know like enhance that but to get
44:50rid of that is um kind of netso from the
44:54student perspective and then the second
44:57thing is grade inflation itself and in a
44:59way it's easy to fix because you just go
45:03mandate a grading curve and just go back
45:05you know C is average f is fail a is you
45:09know two standard deviations up B is one
45:11standard like just have it mean
45:13something very straightforward the grade
45:16are you talking about kind of trying to
45:17zero in on the absolute qual the
45:18absolute grades want the indicator or
45:20you're talking about literally grading
45:21on a curve and having a for dist like
45:23literally grading on a curve right okay
45:26so grading on a curve used to be more
45:28common I think both in educational
45:30settings and also in EV employee
45:32evaluation settings and you know
45:33companies like Microsoft used to do it
45:35kind of famously um and GE and then it
45:37went it feels like it's gone very much
45:39out of style um because the the crit the
45:42criticism right is it sort of forces you
45:44it sort of guarantees that you're going
45:45to have people who don't make it um and
45:47so the the criticism is like you know
45:49what if everybody in the class is
45:50actually really good and then you're
45:52singling out people who have to be cut
45:53from the bottom because you're forcing
45:55the the the grade and the curve thing
45:56and so isn't that unfair and so like I I
45:59haven't seen anybody grade on a curve in
46:00many many years and so how how would you
46:02how would you kind of re-explain that to
46:04people in a way that they would think
46:05it's a good idea to bring it back yeah
46:06so like I think it's different at
46:07companies um and in universities by the
46:10way so so I think it actually works
46:12probably in some ways better in
46:14universities in the sense that like the
46:17the trouble you run into companies is
46:19like
46:21you're you're relative to the next
46:25employer so if you hire the top thousand
46:30employees in the industry and then you
46:33rank them on a curve and then you fire
46:35the bottom 10% those are better than the
46:39people on the market um and so like you
46:42get into that kind of thing and so forth
46:44so
46:45there's you know this need to mix in the
46:47absolute level the other thing is that
46:50you know the companies that were famous
46:51for it Intel and Microsoft um would
46:55actually fire the people at the bottom
46:58of the curve um right and you know that
47:01has implications and so forth one could
47:04argue you know Intel and Microsoft did
47:07pretty well you know they started with
47:08those programs before they were giant
47:10monopolies and they became giant
47:12Monopoly so um that that that actually
47:15kind of worked so you know it's kind of
47:17a retrospective that that stuff is bad
47:20um but in the
47:21University you
47:23know I think if if you grade it that way
47:26you don't actually I I mean you know if
47:28you feel like okay the failing point
47:31should be lower than the whatever two
47:34standard deviations below the average
47:37then you can do that um but the meaning
47:41of who's a top student at Harvard to
47:44have Clarity on that is pretty powerful
47:47and then also to have Clarity on oh this
47:52is what it takes to get through four
47:54years and get a degree bachelor's degree
47:57to your point last time about
47:59conscientiousness um it really kind of
48:01fulfills that promise and so you know
48:05look we've gone into this self-esteem is
48:09all that matters thing but the result of
48:11that is massive student debt we just lie
48:14to everybody say you're doing fine
48:16you're doing great it's all good give us
48:18your money and then oh guess what you
48:20owe $300,000 and you can't get a job and
48:23you know that's the problem so I to me
48:25that's a much bigger problem than the
48:27self-esteem problem where the you know
48:31you know your 3D standard deviations
48:33below the average and you flank the
48:35class you you know at that point you
48:37probably don't know the material well
48:39enough um you know to get a passing
48:42grade let alone what you get now which
48:44is an A
48:45minus right sorry well the the the other
48:48response I think would be like look
48:49every Professor every teacher and every
48:51manager and every employer are fully
48:53aware that you have a distribution of
48:55talents and capabilities and results and
48:57performance in every group right like so
48:59no there is no employer that does what
49:00you just you said a few minutes ago
49:02which is they hire the Thousand best
49:03people yeah and and nobody ever does
49:06that I mean everybody would love to
49:07nobody ever does you always
49:08have there's also you know it's not just
49:11smarts it's effort you know effort is a
49:13big thing that goes into you know not
49:15only a grade in school but goes into
49:18like performance on the job and um you
49:22and and look I would say the other thing
49:24you know just in life you learn when you
49:26employ people and every employer knows
49:27this is you know not everybody is good
49:31at everything so like the important
49:33thing is like what are you great at and
49:36then like where how can we put you in a
49:38position for your highest and best use
49:40we use this term all the time you know
49:42like where can you make the biggest
49:44contribution and let us get you there
49:46and not have you do something you're no
49:47good at and I think this whole you know
49:51anti-red dential kind of way that we've
49:54got in universities we you know people
49:56come out of the school we don't know
49:57what they're highest and best used at
50:00they they might get you know they may be
50:01like the greatest I tell Robert Smith is
50:05uh who's the um is he I guess he's CEO
50:08of Vista he's the founder of Vista he's
50:10kind of rent it um you know very very
50:13sharp on this he's a he's the person I
50:15probably rely on most for ideas in this
50:19area and one of the things he says is
50:21look we get guys we kind of have to
50:24reclass ify them because we at somebody
50:27as an engineer but when we kind of you
50:29know look at their personality and so
50:32forth they'd be way better in sales and
50:34we reroute them and their career goes
50:36much better and so if you're like a
50:38genius you know psychologist social
50:41network or like you know these kinds of
50:44things and we forced you into stem um
50:48that's not good for you it's not good
50:49for anybody uh but that's what these
50:52ideas do right like they force people
50:53into things that aren't there
50:56Talent their skill their passion their
50:58interest um and then you know they don't
51:01enjoy it you know they they you know
51:04like I'd be resentful if somebody did
51:06that to me um and then I'm not going to
51:08make much money and I'm gonna be like a
51:10low performer wherever I am and there's
51:12no need for it because I'm super
51:14talented person like why are you doing
51:15this to me and I think uh you know and
51:18and it's these ideas of people who want
51:21to make the world fair that they impose
51:23this thing on people like look life is
51:27not it's not fair in that not everybody
51:30is exactly the same amount of good at
51:31everything but it there's so much
51:34variety that there's a place for
51:36everybody you know like I do believe
51:38that there's a place for everywh anybody
51:40can contribute and we got to find that
51:42for them and that's what the university
51:43should be doing is finding people's
51:45contribution not you know channeling
51:48them into something they don't want to
51:49do or like didn't test into or whatever
51:53CU you know oh we need another person to
51:55of your race doing this so we're gonna
51:58make you do
51:59that yeah there's something in um if
52:02when you dig into the data on like
52:03representation of different groups and
52:05different professions there's something
52:06in the in the data the the the social
52:08scientist who study this referred to as
52:09a Scandinavian Paradox um which is that
52:13it's very counterintuitive um it's
52:15consistent with what you're saying but
52:16it's very counterintuitive which is the
52:18societies that are most
52:19egalitarian um have the greater
52:21dispersion um have the greater
52:23difference between representation of
52:24groups but for example by
52:27profession more women go into stem in
52:30like Kazakhstan than in
52:33Sweden exactly and so the the the true
52:36like for example for stem the truly the
52:38truly representative stem systems at the
52:40educational level and at the
52:41professional level for like science and
52:44math and Engineering were the Soviet
52:46Union um and then apparently even still
52:48today
52:49Iran much fear rights women have much
52:51fear rights yeah yeah and then by the
52:53way everything else that the women might
52:55want to do um is is is much more
52:57dangerous right like so like being a
52:59literature professor in stalinist Russia
53:01was like super dangerous very good right
53:05but being a nuclear physicist was like
53:07you know super a super privileged
53:08position yeah yeah
53:10and yeah yeah yeah right ex I need you
53:13right and so if you're like a highly
53:14capable person who happens to be a woman
53:16who would love to be a literature
53:17professor and but in that system you
53:19can't do that you're not going to do
53:20that and so you go do the thing that
53:21you'd rather not do because it's the
53:22safe thing to do so um and then in in
53:25contrast um if you if you do this rank
53:27ordering of societies by gender
53:28egalitarianism you know the Scandinavian
53:30countries are kind of top of the Heap
53:32and I think it's the case in the
53:33Scandinavian countries today that like
53:34Engineers are like 85% men and nurses
53:36are like 85% women yeah um and so it's
53:39it's it's it's a much more unequal
53:40outcome and so the the the explanation
53:42for it turns out to be very subtle it's
53:44in the statistics um uh for what's
53:46happening which is um if you take out
53:48all of the societal bias or all the
53:51societal level determinism and you take
53:54out all you know whatever if you take
53:55out every possible restriction on what
53:57people can do and you let them fully
53:59Express themselves then what you're left
54:01with is pure choice right right right
54:05and so and so at that point the the
54:06differences in the outcomes that are
54:08based on pure Choice maximize them yeah
54:12they don't minimize yeah they maximize
54:15right and so so the Freer people are the
54:17more you're going to have dispersion and
54:18exactly the way that makes kind of
54:20prevailing morality just like completely
54:21freak out but but but to your point the
54:23reason we're going through all this your
54:24point is can imagine a university you
54:27can imagine University that has this
54:28polar opposite View and would have these
54:30spectacular programs um in things if
54:33music and and many different areas of
54:35everything Performing Arts poetry and
54:38and then and then all these different
54:39you know psychology and all these
54:40different you know things and so forth
54:41and so on and then have sort of equally
54:43good you know engineering programs or
54:44math programs or whatever and they have
54:46just like and everybody in every program
54:48is there because it's the thing that
54:49they really want to do in life and that
54:51they're the best at without the kind of
54:53trying to force fit everything to be
54:54equal representation across all Fields
54:55is that the sounds like that yeah I mean
54:57and I think that's um clearly the right
55:00approach and look
55:02and I mean I have to say like in
55:05business like you look we're a
55:07technology Venture Capital firm and we
55:09end up needing all those things right
55:12like you
55:14know part of our advantage is that like
55:18we're a firm that has some poetry to
55:20them that can tell a story that can do
55:22these kinds of things that's how we
55:24built the whole brand
55:25um it had nothing to do with math um and
55:29you know like that's kind of one aspect
55:31then we're a network and so we've got to
55:33make friends like a lot of friends in
55:36and not just friends in Silicon Valley
55:38we've got to make friends in Washington
55:39DC we've got to make friends in
55:40Hollywood we've got to make you know
55:42friends on Wall Street and like this
55:45isn't a great job for an
55:47engineer and so let like or or like
55:50there may be Engineers who are good at
55:52it but I'll bet you I can find like
55:55somebody else who's way better at it and
55:56we have and so like and that's my point
56:00about the world like the world is very
56:02diverse in terms of things that need
56:05doing and to kind of force people into a
56:08path because they're not your customer
56:11your customer is you know some you know
56:16bu who's covering diversity at the
56:18Washington Post or the New York Times or
56:20whatever and you're like okay the last
56:23thing I want to be doing is get getting
56:25tagged with racism for their and by the
56:27way those organizations are not diverse
56:29in that way either you know like so
56:31they're like they're telling you how to
56:32run your business they don't know how to
56:34run their business the whole
56:36thing is just stupid um but you know
56:38like it you get into these like abstract
56:42ideas um that you know at the very
56:45surface level makes sense you know like
56:48look there's Talent everywhere yes um
56:52people are different or like not even
56:54people are different like you know
56:56people are there there's racism out
56:58there yes um so therefore every job
57:01every category and every company's got
57:03to be exactly you know the percentage
57:06that are represented by the population
57:08well how did you get all the way there
57:10like that's a dumbest thing I ever heard
57:13yeah so um uh if you want to just
57:16something I do for fun sometimes is if
57:17if you just Google um Newsroom diversity
57:19crisis yeah um there are these just
57:22absolutely hysterical reports just like
57:24scorting uh the news the same news
57:26organizations that criticize everybody
57:28else of course of course they're not you
57:30know of course not everybody wants to be
57:32a damn you know
57:35journalist so anyway an equal amounts
57:37their representation of the population
57:39I'm like what are you talking about
57:41right exactly so um to go go back to the
57:43credentialing to go back to the you know
57:45why we're talking about this go back to
57:46credentialing so then I think what
57:47you're saying see see if this is right
57:49what you're saying is you want to think
57:51you want to think harder leading one of
57:53these institutions you want to think
57:54harder about the credentialing on the
57:55way in in terms of how you're actually
57:57sourcing talent and how you're thinking
57:59about talent and how you're thinking
58:00about bringing in you know lots of
58:01different kinds of people yeah and then
58:03and then correspondingly you also want
58:04to think about the credential out uh so
58:07the the the value of the credential that
58:09you're then generating you know and
58:11they're related right because to your
58:12point on the SAT the the incoming
58:13credential is actually part of the
58:14outgoing credential yeah um and so and
58:17you so you want to think hard ultimately
58:18about how that all translates Downstream
58:20to the potential employer yeah and by
58:21the way look if you want to diversify
58:24what you're getting through that
58:26credentialing system then widen it you
58:29know widen the bar take more things have
58:31them do a poetry test know like see what
58:36their rhyming skills are like actually
58:38you know add music to it like the these
58:42this isn't these are real tangible
58:45things right like you
58:46know add you know like I think it would
58:50be very helpful for us if they would say
58:53like how good are you at like human
58:56relationships right that would be
58:57something I'll give you one I would love
58:59to know that coming in nobody's tested
59:02that like fine if you only want to test
59:05writing and math in history but you're
59:08gonna get people who are good at writing
59:09and math in history and interested in it
59:12and whose culture puts them that way and
59:15so like yes if you kind of mix up the
59:17population throw the cultures together
59:20do a Freaky Friday on everybody and then
59:22have them take the test maybe it'll work
59:23better but like you're you're kind of
59:25dealing with what you're dealing with
59:27and so if you're going to go find Talent
59:29go find talent but don't make Talent
59:32being the color of your skin or your
59:34gender like that's dumb yeah so there's
59:37a psychologist there's I read about one
59:38uh there's a psychologist that has a
59:40creativity uh uh test uh a creativity
59:43assessment battery test um and the test
59:46if I remember correctly it works roughly
59:47as follows which is it it's it's sort of
59:50two-dimensional so it's it's it's 15
59:52different kinds of creativity and it's
59:53like poetry and literature and you know
59:55art visual art and music and you know
59:58and you by the way it could be computer
59:59coding you know it could you know
01:00:01whatever you whatever just list all the
01:00:02different potential kinds of creativity
01:00:05um and then I think it's he had it's
01:00:06seven layers seven degrees of sort of um
01:00:09uh sort of uh you know sort of aptitude
01:00:11or potential um and it's like degree one
01:00:15is you know like let's take just take
01:00:16poetry as an example I have written a
01:00:18poem on my own in my notebook that
01:00:20nobody else has ever seen um and then
01:00:23all the way up to I have want National
01:00:24poetry Award right right and the same
01:00:27you know same thing classical music you
01:00:28know I don't know you know play playing
01:00:31classical music instruments um you know
01:00:33I I I I you know I I I like to practice
01:00:35brahs from time to time for fun and I
01:00:36performed at Carnegie Hall right it's
01:00:38sort of the scale from one to seven
01:00:39right um and he said if you uh if you
01:00:42apply this test to any kind of
01:00:43broad-based represent you know sort of
01:00:45group in the population the the the uh
01:00:47the average result the the the the mean
01:00:49result is or the average result
01:00:52overwhelmingly uh the the the the result
01:00:54is zero
01:00:55yeah yeah right right right right yeah
01:00:56so it's a real thing most people have
01:00:59never done any of those things right
01:01:01most people if most people have no
01:01:02interest in doing any of those things uh
01:01:05or or or by the way maybe most people
01:01:06haven't been encouraged to do those
01:01:07things because they're not valued highly
01:01:09enough um right or because they don't
01:01:11think that it translates to having a
01:01:12future path in life but for people who
01:01:14have done those things or might want to
01:01:15do those things you you could have a
01:01:16completely different kind of criteria
01:01:18yeah absolutely and I and I guarantee it
01:01:20comes out very different across
01:01:22different populations and I guarantee
01:01:24not the same populations that score high
01:01:26on the sat right like and so you get
01:01:28into these you know like okay and you
01:01:33know to me this is uh probably my
01:01:36greatest disappointment about the lack
01:01:37of evolution of the universities is you
01:01:40know we kind of rely on them to help us
01:01:45like the idea of like we're going to
01:01:48help you get to much more of the
01:01:51population and get to much more of the
01:01:53talent and and we're going to really
01:01:55help you kind of map our students to
01:01:59your
01:01:59needs you know rather than doing that
01:02:04they just like wanted to pass this
01:02:06political litness test and and you know
01:02:09it's just a blown
01:02:11opportunity and uh really unfortunate
01:02:13because look I mean you know I and I can
01:02:16tell you just like in my friend groups
01:02:19um you know like they're just the
01:02:21interests are just so different right
01:02:23like people like people in my white
01:02:26friend group um or my Asian friend group
01:02:29or my are always surprised at how much I
01:02:31know about popular music nobody in my
01:02:34black friend group is even surprised at
01:02:37all about that because like that
01:02:40interest in music is just higher in the
01:02:44population so like can we take
01:02:47it you know these these things are
01:02:49different cultures are different things
01:02:50that are important in the conversation
01:02:52are different yeah so let me give you my
01:02:55my other credential thing which is like
01:02:56on the other side of this which I think
01:02:58you you'll find very entertaining so um
01:03:00so one of the things that came out you
01:03:01know one of one of the one of the you
01:03:02know there was this big big Supreme
01:03:03Court case on Admissions and and so and
01:03:05Harvard just happened to be the the
01:03:06university that was the target of it
01:03:07although I I think frankly they were
01:03:09just representative of the entire you
01:03:10know category U but it just turned out
01:03:12we got just a tremendous amount of data
01:03:14um you know from the inside of at least
01:03:16one of these places in terms of how they
01:03:17do all this um and a lot of that now as
01:03:19public record um and you know one of the
01:03:21things that became very clear you know
01:03:23because because universities are these
01:03:25universities are constantly asked you
01:03:26know why don't you just why don't you
01:03:27just basically admit on the basis purely
01:03:29of objective criteria why even do the
01:03:31rest of this why don't you just like for
01:03:32example why don't you just admit on the
01:03:33basis of quote academic Merit therefore
01:03:36sat sat score and actually one of the
01:03:37very interesting response is um there
01:03:40are now too many kids who score 800 on
01:03:42the SAT what they'll say is if we only
01:03:43recruit to the base of sat it still
01:03:45doesn't it still doesn't help us it
01:03:46still doesn't get us all the way there
01:03:47because there are too many kids to score
01:03:48800 on the SAT or 1600 on the SAT um and
01:03:52in particular and then this gets to the
01:03:53Asian thing and this this is why this
01:03:54came out of Supreme Court case which is
01:03:56there's there specifically there are too
01:03:57many Asians who score 800 on the math
01:03:59sat and and do very well on the verbal
01:04:01sat um and so it's no longer it's so so
01:04:03it's no longer an effective uh testing
01:04:06method to even get to the cream of the
01:04:07crop um for people in in stem now here's
01:04:10what's interesting um there's no reason
01:04:12why for example the meth sat has to cap
01:04:15out at 800 the test is designed and
01:04:17calibrated deliberately by professionals
01:04:19who do this for a living um they can
01:04:21make the test arbitrarily difficult yeah
01:04:24um they can make the scale arbitrarily
01:04:26High you could have a math SAT test that
01:04:30just had harder and harder and harder
01:04:31and harder questions and then all of a
01:04:34inflation yeah exactly right well so
01:04:37this is almost the opposite of grade
01:04:38inflation this is like grade capping
01:04:40right grade capping yeah well cap capit
01:04:42800 yeah yeah right right right yeah
01:04:44capit 800 it's kind of like capping and
01:04:45saying my students can only get a B+ in
01:04:47the class so you just can't like there's
01:04:48just there's just because I'm not
01:04:49presenting complex enough material where
01:04:50they would be able to you know validate
01:04:52getting an a right but you could could
01:04:54have a version of the satat that
01:04:55basically has like much much much harder
01:04:58questions as the test you know goes on
01:05:00um and then basically you could have
01:05:01kids you could just have a scale that
01:05:03goes from you know 800 to 2,000 and and
01:05:05you could basic you could identify
01:05:06within the crop of people who are at 800
01:05:08level you could ident identify the 10%
01:05:10that are like at like a much higher
01:05:12level um right and so and and then you
01:05:14know then this gets in the question of
01:05:15like why is it caped 800 it's it's cap
01:05:17at 800 because there's just constant
01:05:18pressure on the SAT to equalize Itself
01:05:21by demographic group um and so the the
01:05:23overwhelming prior at the company that
01:05:25does the SAT is to is to actually try to
01:05:27reduce group distinctiveness right as
01:05:28opposed to unearth Talent um and so the
01:05:32then they already get like just
01:05:33tremendous criticism for for group
01:05:34dispersion of of results and if if they
01:05:36if they let it if if they let it go
01:05:38further up you know it would be just you
01:05:40know be logical to expect it's based on
01:05:41everything we know that for example
01:05:42you'd have incredibly High Asian
01:05:44representation right among the people
01:05:45who have higher than 800 meth SAT but in
01:05:48in the view of the world in which we're
01:05:49looking for special and different right
01:05:51um You would say wow that's fantastic um
01:05:53in the world where we need everybody to
01:05:54be the same you would say oh that's
01:05:55horrible right um but but that that that
01:05:58that opportunity is there and then of
01:05:59course there's nothing keeping a
01:06:01University from developing a test like
01:06:02that for itself right like or or or an
01:06:05employer
01:06:06right diversity is our strength EXA is
01:06:10th this is the thing that's so like
01:06:12weird about the politics now is we want
01:06:16diversity but we want everybody to be
01:06:18the same and like we got to make up our
01:06:20minds and if we have diversity then
01:06:23we've got to be able to measure diverse
01:06:25talents and degrees of diverse talent
01:06:29and uh and distinguish in all those
01:06:31kinds of things if we don't want
01:06:33diversity then you know like why have
01:06:36education at all like just keep us all
01:06:38like dumb as we ever
01:06:40were you know like so we can all be the
01:06:42same that's the goal the goal isn't to
01:06:45you know invent new things or or build
01:06:48new stuff or create new ideas or write
01:06:52new movies the ideas that everybody's
01:06:54the same and that being and and this is
01:06:57this is where I think like the illogic
01:07:00uh gets really wacky and I think that
01:07:02you know like universities got caught in
01:07:04their own underwear because they weren't
01:07:06willing to have that conversation which
01:07:08is crazy because the whole idea of the
01:07:10UN or like a big idea in the university
01:07:12is um you know Free Speech Marketplace
01:07:16of ideas these kinds of things uh but
01:07:18those ideas got shut down right so let's
01:07:22keep going Let's see we we already
01:07:24covered a fair amount on the fix it
01:07:25thing we could probably spend a lot more
01:07:26time on it let's go to the other another
01:07:28option though um which is basically uh
01:07:30starting new competition yeah um and so
01:07:33you could start you could you could
01:07:34start new universities and it is worth
01:07:35saying of course some people are trying
01:07:37to do this right and so our friend Joe
01:07:38lale and and and a bunch a bunch of our
01:07:40friends actually very wise Ferguson
01:07:43Lambda school is a for-profit a
01:07:44for-profit version Austin alled uh is
01:07:46doing and then there's a nonprofit
01:07:48version University of Austin which our
01:07:50friends um uh which our friends sdale
01:07:52and his colleagues are doing and then
01:07:54there's there's another one called
01:07:56manura um and you know there people do
01:07:59try to start new universities and so
01:08:00let's let's let's talk about that for a
01:08:02second so let me let me just kind of
01:08:03frame the frame frame the thing so the
01:08:05the the obvious Pro for doing this um uh
01:08:09is um you know sort of the the advantage
01:08:11of starting something new which is sort
01:08:12of clean sheet of paper um you can learn
01:08:14all the lessons from the people who have
01:08:15come before you you can do what makes
01:08:17sense for today um you know and then
01:08:19look probably this would be the just
01:08:21given the issues in the world today this
01:08:22is probably the best time in 100 years
01:08:24to try to do that right because you have
01:08:25you know a lot of people you have
01:08:26actually quite a few donors at the
01:08:28moment as well as you know quite a few
01:08:29parents and students um you know
01:08:31including by the way students who
01:08:32according to the current policies are
01:08:34actually very capable that can't get
01:08:35into to universities right now because
01:08:37of the you know sort of very radical
01:08:38changes in admission policies so you
01:08:40have like you know this this is probably
01:08:42like the biggest golden moment in in
01:08:43probably in a 100 years to to to think
01:08:45about doing this um some people are
01:08:47trying to do it um there's a bunch of
01:08:48reasons to think that you know this
01:08:50would also be very difficult um I'll
01:08:52just list the three reasons why this
01:08:53would be very difficult um number one is
01:08:55existing institutions just have very
01:08:56powerful Network effects which is why
01:08:58they you know they they're so you know
01:08:59which is why the the big ones are like
01:09:01hundreds of years old um two is it would
01:09:03take a lot of money for a long time
01:09:05because of the network you need to boot
01:09:06up a network effect and that would just
01:09:08be very expensive right in other words
01:09:10like it's hard to get the great students
01:09:11until you have the great faculty it's
01:09:12hard to get the great faculty and you
01:09:13have the great students and so like for
01:09:14example you'd have to like really
01:09:15overpay faculty to get them to come over
01:09:17and you'd probably have to have a you
01:09:18know much cheaper student proposition so
01:09:20you'd have like upside down economics
01:09:22for a while while you're booting which
01:09:23means you would need a lot of funding
01:09:25and then third is you'd be trying to
01:09:26break into a cartel and so you know we
01:09:28talked about the accreditation process
01:09:30last time but like it's it's you know
01:09:31maybe you could get accredited you get
01:09:32access to federal student loan funding
01:09:34and federal research funding and maybe
01:09:35you couldn't maybe you just get boxed
01:09:37out which again would just translate to
01:09:38you need you would need a lot more money
01:09:39to get started um so Ben like think
01:09:42about yeah so kind of with your
01:09:44entrepreneurial haton and your venture
01:09:45capitalist hat on like is is is is
01:09:47starting new universities in the shape
01:09:49and form and kind of equivalent bundle
01:09:51to the current universities is that an
01:09:52idea that we would encourage or that we
01:09:54would we would warn people away from I I
01:09:56would probably warn people away from
01:09:58that idea that that it's the same bundle
01:10:02um although you know
01:10:05like today is probably the right time to
01:10:08to come at that idea I think from a
01:10:10venture capital standpoint that is a
01:10:13very long shot so uh it's kind of
01:10:18like you know it's the difference
01:10:20between like um Tucker
01:10:24DeLorean um and Tesla right so by by the
01:10:28way to be clear the reference says to
01:10:29you Tucker Automotive um to um not not
01:10:33to any other Tucker yeah
01:10:37yeah but you know like I think it's
01:10:40really and we talk about this a lot is
01:10:43you know like taking on you know an
01:10:45existing incumbent at what they do is
01:10:49tough taking them on on something that
01:10:52they really don't do like electric cars
01:10:55um tends to work better and I think that
01:10:58with universities kind of there's such a
01:11:01huge opening um for you know different
01:11:06lengths of degrees so like the four-year
01:11:09degree is really something that doesn't
01:11:12make much sense to me um so to adopt
01:11:15that as like what's your degree length
01:11:18is um given that people who aren't
01:11:24need kind of skills and then new skills
01:11:28and new skills and new skills I mean
01:11:30could you imagine if we were trying to
01:11:31do our jobs based on just what we
01:11:33learned in college right like they T
01:11:36taught me to program in Pascal you know
01:11:39and see like neither of which anyway a
01:11:41few times you use see but not often and
01:11:44you know like said like the these things
01:11:46don't last that long anymore um these
01:11:49kind of things that you're taught
01:11:50knowledge is evolving very fast which is
01:11:52great um um so like the four-year degree
01:11:55you know like that's one thing you might
01:11:56bring into question and then if you had
01:11:59a shorter degree where you could get
01:12:00just as high paying a job and this
01:12:02something Lambda school does of course
01:12:05then all of the sudden you have a value
01:12:07proposition that's starting to look
01:12:08really good oh maybe like 10 grand you
01:12:13know you lend me 10 grand for a year
01:12:15this is what L Lambda school does and
01:12:17then you pay me
01:12:19back if and only if you get a job well
01:12:23okay th that starts to sound pretty good
01:12:25so like I think there's things that
01:12:26would be much more attractive to
01:12:28students potentially that weren't like a
01:12:31full frontal assault on Harvard um so
01:12:35just from a VC standpoint I think that
01:12:37now like I think there's something very
01:12:39Noble about building a new full out
01:12:43four-year Ivy League of the future type
01:12:46thing because um if you believe these
01:12:48schools have lost their way then you
01:12:50know it's time to build a new thing um
01:12:53but but I'm not sure that you know the
01:12:55University was invented so long ago like
01:12:57why don't we invent one for today let's
01:13:00take it out of let's take it out of the
01:13:01realm of you know pure Venture let's
01:13:02take it out the realm of venture capital
01:13:04where we you know we think about
01:13:05generating return and so forth let's
01:13:06let's take it out in the realm of you
01:13:08know maybe let's say sort of
01:13:09philanthropy as an example or just
01:13:10somebody who really wants to make this
01:13:12happen so you know look we just happen
01:13:13you know there's a donor strike at some
01:13:14institutions right now and there's a
01:13:16very deep pocket of donors you know very
01:13:18decked donors that are that are on
01:13:20strike particularly Jewish ones that's
01:13:24that that's what I've read so um so
01:13:27let's let's just hypothesize and I I
01:13:29don't know whe by the way I don't know
01:13:30whether this is happening it maybe I I
01:13:31don't I don't know but like let's just
01:13:32suppose a group of them get together and
01:13:34they're just like look we're going to
01:13:35put2 billion dollar or five billion doar
01:13:39or 10 billion dollar um and we're going
01:13:41to build from scratch um and and we're
01:13:43gonna we're going to do the direct
01:13:44frontal thing we're just gon to like
01:13:46we're going to build the parallel thing
01:13:47and then and then the logic we're going
01:13:48to have for doing that is number one we
01:13:50have the money uh we have the resour
01:13:52let's assume we have the money and
01:13:53resources at the level of some number of
01:13:54billions of dollars to do that um uh you
01:13:57know let's say up to the up to the five
01:13:58or 10 billion dollar level um just to to
01:14:00swag it and then let's say that you know
01:14:02look we we actually want to go for full
01:14:04frontal kind of assault because we don't
01:14:06want people to have to rethink their
01:14:08assumptions like we want to just be able
01:14:09to like bring the faculty over we want
01:14:11to bring the students over we want the
01:14:12parents to be totally comfortable right
01:14:14we want the government to understand how
01:14:15to deal with us like we just we want to
01:14:18fit into the existing industry structure
01:14:20and we don't want to we don't want to
01:14:21take take the risk of innovating we just
01:14:23want to be like the others and we just
01:14:25we're just going to be a new we're just
01:14:26going to be a new and better version of
01:14:28of the thing that already exists like
01:14:29how would we how how would we advise
01:14:31them um you know give given the given
01:14:34given those goals and given that level
01:14:35of funding like would we would we at
01:14:37that point say you know wow that sounds
01:14:38like that might be a good idea and
01:14:39here's how you might do it or would we
01:14:40still say yeah no no like I mean I I
01:14:44like as you know uh our whole mission in
01:14:48life is we're Dream Builders not dream
01:14:49Killers so we would have for sure
01:14:51encourag them and actually you got me
01:14:53thinking about like what would I advise
01:14:56Joe lale to do like like one thing I
01:14:58wish I should probably call him um is he
01:15:01should wire University of Austin
01:15:04straight to us um and straighten to you
01:15:06know everybody in Venture Capital who's
01:15:09building new companies and and kind of
01:15:11hiring lots of employees and all these
01:15:13kinds of things and um you know ask us
01:15:18what we're looking for and then um you
01:15:21know let's do a partnership and and
01:15:23recruit straight out of there and so
01:15:24forth and then that will really enhance
01:15:27the proposition to new students so if
01:15:29I'm a new student and I'm going like
01:15:31okay I get a Harvard degree or I could
01:15:32get a University of Austin degree why am
01:15:35I going to University of
01:15:36Austin well what if like during the
01:15:39recruiting process like they come see us
01:15:42and we go like we rather have you out of
01:15:44University of Austin than out of Harvard
01:15:46that would open my eyes I'd go like okay
01:15:50that's something you know I I may take
01:15:53that seriously so I probably like really
01:15:56lock in on how can I attract the best
01:15:59students and what does that take and I
01:16:01think it's you know it's partly a
01:16:04function of Faculty but it's partly a
01:16:06function of like who's paying who's
01:16:09understands enough about that University
01:16:12that they go I'm all in and by the way I
01:16:14can be as big a help to you when you
01:16:16come out as anybody so kind of
01:16:20artificially create um what's like the
01:16:22alum network but better than an Alumni
01:16:25network because you're doing it with
01:16:27people who 100% have jobs like the top
01:16:31of the job market I think that that's
01:16:33probably where I would start and then I
01:16:34kind of design the system to feed us and
01:16:38then to kind of feed the students in
01:16:40that way into all the most kind of
01:16:44interesting jobs that line up with the
01:16:45curriculum now you know like and and if
01:16:48you're doing like if University of auson
01:16:51was like had a whatever a big focus on
01:16:55creativity then I would you know want to
01:16:58like wire them into some kind of
01:17:00creative output or whatever like so what
01:17:04happens after the University of Austin
01:17:06like I would start with that like what's
01:17:08gonna happen when I graduate is is
01:17:10basically when you go to school you're
01:17:12like what are you looking for you're
01:17:13looking for like my life isn't going to
01:17:16be like you know for me it was like my
01:17:20life's not going to be working at a
01:17:21 restaurant
01:17:24because I had been a bus boy and I was
01:17:26like I do not want to do that my whole
01:17:27life I can't do it I'll shoot myself in
01:17:29the head like I can't I can't take it um
01:17:32and and I think that's a lot what people
01:17:34are looking for when they go to college
01:17:35it's like how can I have a life that
01:17:38kind of has more variety is interesting
01:17:40where I'm learning and you know a
01:17:42lifelong learner all that kind of thing
01:17:44and so if you can guarantee me that life
01:17:46or if you can give me a better product
01:17:49to get me that life that's what I want
01:17:51right right um so you sent me on the
01:17:54same topic um building building from
01:17:56scratch um you sent me a thing as we
01:17:58were prepping for this I'll just read
01:17:59your own your own quote back to you um
01:18:01the the tra today's universities are
01:18:03built on industrial revolution
01:18:05technology that are and and that are
01:18:07there therefore completely outdated for
01:18:09the information age both in how they run
01:18:11and the product they offer and so how
01:18:12would again how would we advise this
01:18:14hypothetical new institution um on on
01:18:16how to uh on what to do on on that like
01:18:19what yeah what what does that mean in
01:18:20practice Yeah so like I think Industrial
01:18:23revolution technology means you can
01:18:24build big buildings right you can drive
01:18:27there in your car um or on a train you
01:18:30don't have to ride a horse uh and um
01:18:33it's got it's got It's indoor lighting
01:18:37at night indoor lighting at night yeah
01:18:39yeah yeah but it's it's not too hot not
01:18:41too cold yeah this this is sort of the
01:18:43platform so what do you get you get
01:18:45classrooms with instructors you get um
01:18:48you know dorm that you can live in uh
01:18:51you know big cafeteria you know with the
01:18:53meal plan and all that kind of thing um
01:18:57but look in the information age um and a
01:19:00giant library of course or multiple
01:19:02libraries and if you're in Ivy leag
01:19:04School uh you know in the information
01:19:08age you have like AI you can ask it any
01:19:13question you've got
01:19:17um you know you have access to the
01:19:20internet you've got uh all these other
01:19:23things um and then you know your school
01:19:26experience uh you know right now in an
01:19:29industrial age world as you have
01:19:30instructors and you've got like
01:19:32administrators filling out forums and
01:19:34you've got um you know very little you
01:19:38know I don't know about University of
01:19:39Illinois but certainly at Columbia and
01:19:40at
01:19:41UCLA very little kind of career guidance
01:19:46um you know kinds of things help you
01:19:49help you find your highest and best use
01:19:51the university didn't really do that um
01:19:54so I think that in a Information Age AI
01:19:58University all that form filling out all
01:20:02that um a lot of the kind of
01:20:05instruction uh is taken care of but what
01:20:08you really need is University to help
01:20:10you find your purpose and then guide you
01:20:14through your purpose with a team of
01:20:16other students who have a similar
01:20:18purpose uh and you know to help you
01:20:21study the right thing
01:20:23prove yourself in the right ways get the
01:20:25credential and so forth and using all
01:20:28the best tools to do that as opposed to
01:20:32um you know waking you up at 8 in the
01:20:34morning walk to class in your pajamas
01:20:38because you were drinking too much the
01:20:39last night you know sit in the class
01:20:41very bored uh not really you know kind
01:20:45of be integrated into the AI and the
01:20:49internet to get the rest of the
01:20:50information so I just think there's like
01:20:51a whole rank think of the way your day
01:20:53would go uh and you know
01:20:59like 45 minute or hour and a half
01:21:01lectures are pretty hard like it's
01:21:04pretty hard to pay attention the whole
01:21:07time and retain everything um whereas
01:21:09like smaller chunks of work you know I
01:21:12think have been proven out you know and
01:21:14like and then a kind of test to go like
01:21:16okay did you retain the information that
01:21:18you got or like some interactive part
01:21:21every 10 minutes is a much better you
01:21:23know like Ju Just in terms of these
01:21:25things and then you know like as you
01:21:26said like one toone tutor that kind of
01:21:28thing um but maybe the machine is the on
01:21:30toone tutor in some ways uh because you
01:21:32can ask it questions now in English or
01:21:34in you know Chinese or whatever language
01:21:36you speak so I think that I would
01:21:38definitely make it that uh and you know
01:21:42give the professors the megga tutors the
01:21:46kind of tools to both identify the
01:21:49capabilities of the students and then um
01:21:52you know help them maximize those
01:21:54abilities and then kind of then map it
01:21:57further into you know people like us or
01:22:00you know could be us it could be the NBA
01:22:02it could be um you know it could be
01:22:05Warner Music it could be whatever part
01:22:07of
01:22:08society um works but like you know like
01:22:12I said we take people with all kinds of
01:22:15talent um you know all kinds of
01:22:17different things is is very valuable for
01:22:19like extremely valuable for us at at the
01:22:21firm in fact you know I'd say I'd argue
01:22:24you know we're 550 people which probably
01:22:27makes us the biggest Venture Capital
01:22:29firm in the world why because we do the
01:22:32most things why because we have the kind
01:22:34of people who can do lots of different
01:22:36things um and you know that's a that's a
01:22:40heck of an advantage when you know as an
01:22:42employer you have people who can do all
01:22:44kinds of different things because then
01:22:45you have more capability as as an
01:22:48institution right right um and so yeah
01:22:51so when when the topic of technology and
01:22:53education comes up a lot of people you
01:22:54know sort of reflexively assume that you
01:22:56you must mean just like the whole thing
01:22:57moves online everything's over the
01:22:59Internet like that that's not what
01:23:00you're saying no no no saying like it
01:23:03would they would continue to be a real
01:23:04world experience comparable to what
01:23:06people have real world experience I
01:23:08actually think it's good for most
01:23:09students maybe not for you but for most
01:23:11students there are different personality
01:23:13types too um but like I think there's
01:23:16something very motivating um to be
01:23:19around peers right like here you are
01:23:21here's my coord people who are going to
01:23:23be in the world with me and what are
01:23:26they doing and what can I learn from
01:23:27them you learn as much kind of from your
01:23:29classmates as uh you do kind of I think
01:23:32from the University and that's hard to
01:23:34do like it's much harder to do online um
01:23:37so I think that the college
01:23:40experience which is you know to to Joe
01:23:42and University of Austin's credit is a
01:23:45real thing with real value you know
01:23:46particularly for a young person for most
01:23:48young people
01:23:50um but but I think you have to modernize
01:23:53it you know like we're not in 1910
01:23:57anymore yeah yeah and so with that in
01:24:00mind now let's go more radical from that
01:24:01so let's uh let's talk about unbundling
01:24:03so my uh our old friend Jim barale has
01:24:06his famous line he says there's two ways
01:24:08two ways to succeed in life uh in
01:24:10business uh one is you can bundle the
01:24:11other is you can unbundle yeah um and so
01:24:14let's let's talk about the unbundling so
01:24:16um uh I just go through them in in in
01:24:18order so we had our our dozen functions
01:24:19of of the major university um I I
01:24:21stripped out three which we could talk
01:24:23about the end but that leaves nine which
01:24:24it seems to me at least there's a case
01:24:26you could make for unbundling so let's
01:24:27let's walk through them and let's think
01:24:29about these as like you know actual
01:24:30potential start actual potential either
01:24:32startup ideas like actual for-profit
01:24:33startup ideas or by the way maybe
01:24:35nonprofit or philanthropic ideas uh so
01:24:38uh credentialing agency like um yeah so
01:24:40we've talked a lot about credentialing
01:24:42so far but like you know all the
01:24:43different aspects of credentialing and
01:24:45again this concept of credentialing and
01:24:46credentialing out like both the
01:24:47credential the way that you're deciding
01:24:49who to credential and then the actual
01:24:51credential that you're giving them like
01:24:53is that Ben your view is like is that
01:24:55something that could be abstracted out
01:24:56and turned into its own thing oh I think
01:24:58this may be the best um startup idea of
01:25:03everything in education in that uh look
01:25:07if
01:25:10somebody had a an organization that
01:25:13aptitude personality tested people um in
01:25:19you know not just you know a general
01:25:22test but like in very specific things as
01:25:24well like you know if you think about um
01:25:27Silicon Valley everybody gives every
01:25:30engineer some kind of test uh you know
01:25:33in their interview right like write this
01:25:34piece of code how you know figure out
01:25:37this algorithm this kind of thing um I
01:25:39think every job has you know some of
01:25:42that so if you had a place that could
01:25:45reliably um differentiate kind of
01:25:48people's capability and things you
01:25:49needed to hire
01:25:51for that would be you know something
01:25:54that I think would be very attractive to
01:25:56employees I mean you know like one of
01:25:58the right the the SAT was invented
01:26:00because it used to be only like Nobles
01:26:03you know the elite the aristocrats
01:26:05people from Rich families got to go to
01:26:07college and then you're saying well like
01:26:09what if I'm like you know some poor kid
01:26:12from New Lisbon Wisconsin how do I show
01:26:14I can go to University of Illinois well
01:26:16like take this test that's a
01:26:19miracle and I think that was your point
01:26:22like was a specific reform at a specific
01:26:23moment in time yeah yeah yeah exactly
01:26:26and then if you think about that you
01:26:28know among employers people are worried
01:26:30about bias and this and that well like
01:26:32you know
01:26:33like you know to have the ability to
01:26:35show your capability in any Dimension um
01:26:39and then have an employer know about
01:26:41that and have it be like
01:26:43valid you know we'd be incredibly
01:26:46interested in that and I think that you
01:26:48know people who didn't have college
01:26:50degrees who uh might have gone to a
01:26:53state school or something like that that
01:26:55you know was a little cheaper that they
01:26:56could afford um all of a sudden well and
01:26:59then that that would actually help fix
01:27:01the university system in a way in that
01:27:03now I can go to San Francisco State um
01:27:06and I can go get credentialed here and
01:27:09I'm actually more interesting to andrees
01:27:12and Horowitz than the person from
01:27:13Harvard who's got this degrading
01:27:16credential like how about that and I
01:27:18spent a hell of a lot less money to go
01:27:20to San Francisco State that would be
01:27:22incredible uh so I think that to me this
01:27:25is such a great startup idea I've been
01:27:27thinking about since we started the
01:27:28podcast like how do we fund that one
01:27:31like that's awesome you know you'd have
01:27:33to do a great job on it it you know it
01:27:35would have to be
01:27:36unud um you know you you really like
01:27:40nobody's bringing chat GPT into the
01:27:42thing with them like whatever it is or
01:27:44maybe they are like I don't I don't know
01:27:46how you know maybe you just have to know
01:27:48what to ask um but something that was
01:27:52like you knew if they could do that then
01:27:55they would have that capability and then
01:27:57as an interviewer you're just really
01:27:59going understanding motivation cultural
01:28:01fit these kinds of things as opposed to
01:28:03can they do the job because you know
01:28:05they can do the job
01:28:06yeah there's also something in I'm not
01:28:08I'm not a lawyer but there's also
01:28:09something in the law so as you pointed
01:28:11out earlier like it's it's illegal
01:28:12there's a famous Supreme Court case uh
01:28:14they made it illegal companies used to
01:28:16do generalized aptitude testing uh in
01:28:18the old days and there was Supreme Court
01:28:19case General test and rule them out a
01:28:22specific job on a general test right
01:28:25like that yeah that's right and and that
01:28:27basically killed IQ testing at at at the
01:28:29employment level um and and that was
01:28:30when the sa that was when the University
01:28:32degree took off because it was the the
01:28:34SAT score was an implicit IQ test and it
01:28:36laundered through so employers employers
01:28:38outsourc the IQ test to the university
01:28:40credential but but the as we discussed
01:28:42the UN 17 1700 universities and colleges
01:28:44in the US have stop using standardized
01:28:47testing as an emmission uh criteria so
01:28:49that the value of that is going to zero
01:28:51as as an IQ test um and and in fact um
01:28:54you know they're doing everything they
01:28:55can to get away from that so so so so
01:28:58but but the employer still can't do
01:28:59what's what's interesting about this is
01:29:00a startup idea is that the thing that
01:29:02the Supreme Court said specifically is
01:29:04illegal is an employer can't do this
01:29:06yeah um but here you could have any kind
01:29:09of aptitude testing IQ or otherwise you
01:29:11could have a dozen or a hundred
01:29:12different ways of measuring measuring
01:29:13aptitude in whatever domain you want
01:29:15including creativity everything else we
01:29:16talked about and it would all be it's
01:29:17all completely voluntary it's completely
01:29:19legal um you know it's because it's not
01:29:21tied to empy right so I right so you
01:29:25could do like a super version of even
01:29:27what the employers universities did in
01:29:28the past and actually have it be a fully
01:29:31fully legal thing and by the way you
01:29:32know we it would really help get people
01:29:35into the right jobs as well because you
01:29:36know sometimes people get miscast like
01:29:38this is you know life is like that
01:29:40sometimes you know you get sign one
01:29:41thing and you really should be something
01:29:43else and uh these kinds of this kind of
01:29:46rigorous
01:29:47assessment um might identify that and
01:29:50then you know like you can kind of find
01:29:52something that you're better at and uh
01:29:54and that you do better at in your career
01:29:56um and that like you know we could use
01:29:58more which it be great for
01:30:01us this is like this is a definitely
01:30:04high on the it would be great for us
01:30:06criteria yeah yeah okay good um good uh
01:30:10all right second is actual actual
01:30:11educational coursework itself and of
01:30:13course you know again here there have
01:30:14been attempts there was you know kind of
01:30:15the moo you know kind of online m a
01:30:18while ago corera um Udacity and then um
01:30:22udemy or udmi which is another startup
01:30:25um that and Con Academy which is kind of
01:30:28like a different format of it yeah yeah
01:30:31exactly and then um I'll just give you a
01:30:32couple a couple thoughts on this one um
01:30:35so number one actually this has already
01:30:37happened specifically this is happening
01:30:38in Korea um and so there are actual
01:30:40there are actually like teaching
01:30:41superstars in Korea that um actually you
01:30:43know make makes make courses um I I've
01:30:46had this idea for a long time which is
01:30:48um you know if you figure you've got a
01:30:50million kids who are going to take math
01:30:51101 freshman year of college you know
01:30:53you get them you you you get them each
01:30:55to you know do a $100 for that it's $100
01:30:57million of Revenue you know and then
01:30:59hire Stephen Spielberg to make math 101
01:31:01as a you know as a as a as a video
01:31:03miniseries
01:31:05right the most compelling course sare of
01:31:08all times yeah yeah like it literally
01:31:11get stepen Spielberg Christopher Nolan
01:31:12these literally yeah the most the most
01:31:14like mind-blowing incredible like course
01:31:16yeah course uh uh uh lectures you you've
01:31:18ever seen with like full you know three
01:31:20effects and graphics everything perfect
01:31:23um and so you could do that and then and
01:31:24then you know we talked about the the
01:31:25tutoring thing but you you could you
01:31:27could potentially have a thing where you
01:31:28have like the these super high
01:31:30production value General courses and
01:31:31then you couple it with like AI tutoring
01:31:33or you couple it by the way with like
01:31:34inperson tutoring and and uh or you know
01:31:36matching grad students to undergrads or
01:31:37whatever yeah um like and again like
01:31:40people have been trying to do you know
01:31:42variations in this for quite a while um
01:31:44you know how would we think about that
01:31:45as an entrepreneural opportunity today
01:31:46do you think yeah you know it's
01:31:49interesting because of the ones we named
01:31:51the one that has worked the best is
01:31:52probably KH Academy which had the least
01:31:54amount of money going into it and is in
01:31:56its own format right like it's a it's
01:31:59not a university course format thing
01:32:01it's like these little lessons um you
01:32:05know I couldn't even remember you know
01:32:08when AI started taking off I had a hard
01:32:10time remembering like how to do linear
01:32:13algebra or how hard it was and I did the
01:32:15KH Academy I was like wow I I forgot how
01:32:17easy it was you know it's much easier
01:32:19than actual algebra it sounds it sounds
01:32:21harder it's easier um and so so like it
01:32:24is kind of like a magical thing um and I
01:32:27think the challenge with the full
01:32:30college experience unless you get to the
01:32:32Christopher Nolan version is that it's a
01:32:36very big thing to sign up and commit
01:32:39to without a well-known credential right
01:32:43like okay I'm going to go learn um right
01:32:48you know whatever calculus uh or I'm
01:32:51going to learn learn um you know
01:32:54Advanced you know like machine learning
01:32:56or or something like that if I'm not if
01:32:59I'm really coming from outside the job
01:33:02market um even if I learn it will
01:33:06anybody believe me um and how does that
01:33:08work so I think completely decoupling
01:33:11that
01:33:12one from credentialing or
01:33:17jobs may be tough but like if you could
01:33:19link it into like you take this class
01:33:22you get a job then I I think that could
01:33:25definitely work um but otherwise I just
01:33:28think it's a very small Market of people
01:33:29who just really want to
01:33:32learn that much about a
01:33:34subject right right like to thatn we
01:33:38like a little bit about subjects right
01:33:40right yeah yeah so when you when you
01:33:42talk to
01:33:43professors put her on a cynical hat here
01:33:45for when you talk to professors
01:33:46University administrators about this
01:33:48kind of thing basically what they tell
01:33:49you is like look like you you can't be
01:33:51naive about actual actual real world
01:33:53students they say look like in pract
01:33:55goes to your point of like the advantage
01:33:56of having a physical physical presence
01:33:57like an actual physical campus they tell
01:33:59you is like look a lot of students
01:34:01actually like don't want to learn like
01:34:02or they're not motivated to or like it's
01:34:04not something they would naturally do
01:34:05and they're not driven to do it and like
01:34:07they're going through the motions and to
01:34:08the extent that they're actually like
01:34:09showing up to class and doing the work
01:34:11it's because they're in a specifically
01:34:12structured environment where the
01:34:13expectations are set High to do that and
01:34:15they're going to get kicked out if they
01:34:16don't and you know their parents are
01:34:17paying for it and like it's like they're
01:34:19basically pre pressured basically
01:34:20pressured into doing it and of course
01:34:22you know when I went to college and I
01:34:24went to Columbia so like and Columbia is
01:34:26like a pretty highend so I imagine at
01:34:29like regular school that's even more the
01:34:31case so I think I think that I guess my
01:34:36response to that would be I think there
01:34:37might just be two different kinds of
01:34:38students there might be the ones that
01:34:39like are actually super strong it's
01:34:41super intrinsically motivated as the
01:34:43psychologists say where they're just
01:34:44like you know and you by the way you
01:34:45talk about yourself as an example of
01:34:47this which is like I didn't I was a bus
01:34:48boy I didn't want to be a bus boy I was
01:34:49a dishwasher I didn't want to be a
01:34:50dishwasher yeah
01:34:52um and like we're going to go do this
01:34:53because like it we we know we need to do
01:34:54this because we're doing it for
01:34:55intrinsic we're doing it for ourselves
01:34:56like we're doing it for intrinsic
01:34:57reasons and so those students exist but
01:35:00then there is this other kind of student
01:35:01that arguably more populates especially
01:35:03the upper ranks ironically of American
01:35:05Education which is like where they
01:35:06actually need to be like not even me
01:35:08pressured it's maybe overstating it but
01:35:10you know maybe it's let's just say they
01:35:11need to be in a highly structured
01:35:12environment yeah um I that's most
01:35:15students I agree yeah yeah and so well
01:35:19or or it's this weird thing which is
01:35:20it's almost like the more privileged the
01:35:21more privileged the student the more
01:35:22pressure needs to be put on them or
01:35:23something like that like it's a it's you
01:35:25know it's like yeah like if your life is
01:35:27really fun right you know if you've got
01:35:31lots of money and you know look when
01:35:33you're young life is incredibly fun
01:35:35everything is new you know every movie
01:35:37is amazing every like every experience
01:35:40is incredible um so like I'm gonna take
01:35:43those years and I'm gonna sit in
01:35:45a classroom listening to somebody drone
01:35:47on about you know whatever The Iliad
01:35:50like I don't want to do that um so I I
01:35:54think that's right whereas on the other
01:35:56hand if your life is kind of you know
01:36:00it's misery without getting something
01:36:02out of this experience then that that's
01:36:04a little more
01:36:05motivating yeah so I always wonder with
01:36:07these these things I always wonder if
01:36:08people should be more specifically you
01:36:10know sort of addressing that category
01:36:11and I don't know even you know say
01:36:12that's not even that big of a category
01:36:14or something but like basically self
01:36:15motiv intrinsically motivated yeah and
01:36:17and just like not try to not try to
01:36:19appeal uh to the people who need like
01:36:21more structure and more pressure yeah
01:36:23yeah yeah I think that's a very specific
01:36:25market like you'd have to kind of yeah
01:36:27identify those and and and get them
01:36:28through yeah interesting but again to
01:36:30your point if you if you then link that
01:36:31to to the credential then they would see
01:36:33the cause and effect and then you know
01:36:34that would be be very clear like we we
01:36:37mentioned Lambda school like this this
01:36:38is basically we're basically describing
01:36:40Lambda School in a lot of ways so yeah
01:36:42um this uh this this makes sense okay
01:36:44third is the research Bureau so so this
01:36:47one freaks people out because like
01:36:49anytime you bring up is there a
01:36:50different way to like do research fund
01:36:51research basically everybody in the sort
01:36:53of research complex you know generally
01:36:55they freak out because they're basically
01:36:57the the the Steelman case against any
01:36:59change to how research is funded is
01:37:01basically you don't understand uh the
01:37:03whole point of like research the whole
01:37:05point of basic research is that it
01:37:07doesn't have an end goal like in mind
01:37:09and identified and it can't um because
01:37:13how do you know you're doing some
01:37:14research experiment in physics or some
01:37:16new math theorem or whatever and like
01:37:18about biology decoding the genome and
01:37:20how do you ever know like yeah maybe
01:37:22there's a commercial use case for this
01:37:23thing 30 years from now but like you
01:37:25have no idea and and that's what makes
01:37:26research different than development
01:37:28right the reason that this term research
01:37:29and development is because you know
01:37:31development has a specific goal to like
01:37:32ship a product and make money research
01:37:34is like trying to come up with new new
01:37:35knowledge and so it's like okay any and
01:37:37then and then you know the argument go
01:37:39you know the the modern research
01:37:40University was constructed the research
01:37:42part of it was constructed originally by
01:37:43Van ofar Bush and his peers 70 80 years
01:37:46ago to to provide a kind of environment
01:37:47in which that kind of basic research can
01:37:49happen and and there you get into um you
01:37:51know ideas like tenure like why do
01:37:53professors have tenure a big reason for
01:37:55that is so that they're free to do
01:37:56whatever research they want um you know
01:37:58they don't they don't they're not
01:37:59risking getting fired if they quote
01:38:00unquote don't deliver something you know
01:38:02let's say practically useful um and then
01:38:05um you know the other is like you know
01:38:06Government funding of research it's like
01:38:08you know the government you know
01:38:09companies won't fund basic research
01:38:11because it doesn't have an end
01:38:12commercial Target um uh but uh you know
01:38:15the government will because it
01:38:16presumably has this long-term
01:38:17perspective um and so so so you get like
01:38:20TR in my experience is you get a
01:38:21tremendous push back out of the gate on
01:38:22this conversation having said that I
01:38:24think there are a bunch of very
01:38:25interesting things that you could maybe
01:38:26explore as as as as ways to do research
01:38:29outside of the University context and by
01:38:31the way and some people are doing this
01:38:32and we can talk about them but um so so
01:38:36one is there's a couple of issues with
01:38:37the current research complex we talked
01:38:39about last time so one is just there's a
01:38:40massive replication crisis and so
01:38:42depending by field up to 75% of the
01:38:45research in a lot of fields doesn't
01:38:46replicate so a massive incentive complex
01:38:49or like massive incentive problem I
01:38:52think yes how do you get a grant you
01:38:55publish a research result that seems to
01:38:56validate additional investigation how do
01:38:58you get that result well you get it
01:39:00legitimately or you do Data Mining and
01:39:03how do you get tenure how do you get
01:39:05tenure you publish papers that you may
01:39:07or may not have written written whatever
01:39:12yourself so so there's that and then
01:39:15there's a friend of mine and I won't I
01:39:16won't name him but he's a very
01:39:17experienced guy who's been in the sort
01:39:19of leadership positions across this
01:39:20entire uh spectrum and and he always he
01:39:22always whenever he and I talk about this
01:39:24I'm always going on about the
01:39:25replication crisis because I think it's
01:39:26such a scandal and he's like look it's
01:39:27not even the problem he said the problem
01:39:29is 90% of the research is just useless
01:39:31yeah it's just like it's just not
01:39:32helpful like and and basically again
01:39:34this this is a guy doesn't matter right
01:39:37that's what he says he says look whether
01:39:39it's right or not it's actually
01:39:40secondary to whether it would even
01:39:41matter if it was right um and and this
01:39:44by the way is a guy who has run a major
01:39:45he's he's he ran a major at one point
01:39:47major Government research funer and so
01:39:49this is a guy who was in a position to
01:39:50be a bble to hand out the money and you
01:39:52know so this is not like some sort of
01:39:53anti-establishment Guy this is like
01:39:55somebody who's been on the inside seeing
01:39:57how all the sausage is made and running
01:39:58it himself and he said is like he said
01:39:59look he said look the Practical reality
01:40:02this is his his argument the Practical
01:40:03reality is in any given field of
01:40:05research and it's anything from quantum
01:40:07physics to you know any good psychology
01:40:10anything else um computer science
01:40:12whatever he said look there are five
01:40:14institutions that are on the Leading
01:40:15Edge um and everybody in each of those
01:40:18fields knows who those five institutions
01:40:19are and those five in tions generate you
01:40:22know essentially all of the useful
01:40:23output that actually moves the field
01:40:25forward um but it's and so it's just
01:40:28it's five institutions it's you know
01:40:30whatever number of you know therefore I
01:40:32don't know depends on the field 100
01:40:34professors or something like that um 200
01:40:37Maybe by field um and then it's you know
01:40:39some number of grad students and then
01:40:40it's the research budget for those
01:40:42people and he said look he's and so I
01:40:44was like well why doesn't the government
01:40:45just fund that like why fund the other
01:40:47and he says that's like 10% of the money
01:40:48and I was like well then why spend the
01:40:49other 90% he's like like well you know
01:40:52because like it's not enough like it's
01:40:53this weird thing of like it's not enough
01:40:55for the government because there's like
01:40:56too many there's too many miles to feed
01:40:57there's too many constituents there's
01:40:59too many congressmen that have
01:40:59universities in their districts you know
01:41:01there's too many people who get tenure
01:41:03who expect this there's too many
01:41:04incumbent colleges that have research
01:41:06programs even if they're not productive
01:41:07they don't cancel them um and so he said
01:41:10the system is kind of wired to overfund
01:41:12every category by like a factor of 10
01:41:14and so he said look he said the thing
01:41:15the thing to do in his view is like the
01:41:17first thing you would do is he said you
01:41:18would just narrow it down to the 10% and
01:41:19so you would just figure out like what
01:41:21is the actual 10% of the useful work to
01:41:22be done what is the actual 10% of the
01:41:24people who can do that work and so he
01:41:26says look the aggregate dollar amount
01:41:27involved here is is literally a tenth of
01:41:29what everybody thinks it is to do the
01:41:31actual quality work and then he said and
01:41:33then he he makes a further made a
01:41:34further argument that he said look like
01:41:35you don't yeah you don't always know
01:41:37that there's going to be commercial
01:41:38applications for research but a lot of
01:41:39times there is yeah um and so if you
01:41:42have some Material Science breakthrough
01:41:43or something like that patent is
01:41:44probably going to be super valuable um
01:41:46and by the way universities are in the
01:41:47business of you know patents and patent
01:41:49licensing and they get revenue streams
01:41:50from that yeah even though it's not
01:41:52their their main thing and so he's like
01:41:53look you could either have these new you
01:41:54could either have new nonprofit research
01:41:56institutes that would have to be funded
01:41:57with philanthropic dollars but maybe
01:42:00it's not you know maybe that's actually
01:42:01tractable because it's just not that
01:42:02much money yeah for the high quality
01:42:04work or he said look maybe it should be
01:42:06a venture capital model it should be
01:42:07for-profit and you just basically make
01:42:09money it's a long-dated you know Revenue
01:42:11thing where you're making money in the
01:42:12long run on on on Commercial product
01:42:14development and a patent licensing
01:42:15coming out the other side um and and you
01:42:18should actually just like apply you
01:42:19should actually apply a a VC mindset to
01:42:21that so anyway so it really and then oh
01:42:23and then I'll just mention like so our
01:42:25friend Patrick hollison has you know his
01:42:26funding philanthropically uh program you
01:42:28know that to do independent medical
01:42:30research associated with Stanford called
01:42:32Arc but set up as a separate thing um we
01:42:34we know well the the the folks at the
01:42:36Howard Hughes Medical Institute um that
01:42:39does you know specific uh grant funding
01:42:40to um to individual young researchers in
01:42:43the biomedical field and has had
01:42:45outstanding results with that so you
01:42:46know there there are there are new cuts
01:42:48on this that people have go ahead Parker
01:42:50I'm on the Board of his Institute which
01:42:52is similar yeah describe describe what
01:42:54what what he does yeah so Sean Sean's
01:42:57Institute
01:42:58um uh it's called p p is is are its
01:43:02initials Parker Institute cancer
01:43:04something I can't remember uh but I'm on
01:43:07the board of it um but you know they so
01:43:10they fund researchers to do kind of
01:43:12breakthrough work on cancer and you know
01:43:15they do have they've got both uh they
01:43:17spin um the ideas out into there's a
01:43:19venture model so they spend them out
01:43:21into companies and The Institute invests
01:43:23in them um they do generate patents so
01:43:27like it is uh you know it's originally
01:43:29he I mean you know he made an incredibly
01:43:31generous uh $250 million I think
01:43:34donations to started maybe bigger than
01:43:36that probably bigger than that but
01:43:37anyway some enormous amount of money but
01:43:40his vision has always been that like it
01:43:42will become self- sustaining over time
01:43:45because these you know the tech the
01:43:46things that it's doing are are so
01:43:48incredibly important and I think that's
01:43:50uh
01:43:51um I think that's probably right like I
01:43:53I do think it's gonna you know end up
01:43:56working and they you know they've spun
01:43:57out some very very interesting companies
01:43:59already some of which we've invested in
01:44:01by the way um and then there's the Chan
01:44:04Zuckerberg Institute um which is another
01:44:06one right our friend Mark Zuckerberg and
01:44:09and his wife Priscilla Chan are you know
01:44:11trying to cure disease like all disease
01:44:15um you know which is incredibly great
01:44:17ambition and not something you would
01:44:18necessarily do in a company but
01:44:20something that I'll probably have a lot
01:44:21of commercial results coming out of it
01:44:23as
01:44:23well uh so yeah look I I think we're
01:44:27definitely at a point
01:44:29where philanthropy can do it the other
01:44:31thing is right like there was research
01:44:34before the current complex um and you
01:44:38know got us some pretty interesting
01:44:41results like say the theory of uh
01:44:46relativity um you know kind of came out
01:44:49of that uh
01:44:51I think where was Alan Turing when he
01:44:53did his proof that's a good question and
01:44:56then of course Claud Channon was a
01:44:57master student and you know which isn't
01:45:00I mean a master's thesis which is
01:45:02considered like of nothing in Academia
01:45:06which is probably more important
01:45:08than almost any PhD thesis in the last
01:45:12hundred years uh where he um mapped um
01:45:16bullan logic you it's the first time
01:45:18anybody did anything with bullan logic
01:45:20which is the algebra of zeros and ones
01:45:23onto a
01:45:25circuit and that is the beginning of
01:45:27computers um for those who don't follow
01:45:29that kind of thing and so there there
01:45:31there's real research that can obviously
01:45:33happen outside of the way the current
01:45:35University system works that's been very
01:45:38powerful um so yeah know I think look I
01:45:40think that it would be great if there
01:45:43were you know a couple hundred of these
01:45:47um in different categories and it' be
01:45:50certainly something that you know I
01:45:51would love to you know put more money
01:45:53into um so I I think that's a quite a
01:45:57good idea whether they make money or not
01:46:00like I think they're they're very kind
01:46:01of philanthropically
01:46:03fundable yeah that's right yeah that's
01:46:05right um yeah so I I I think yeah I
01:46:08think agreeing with you I think but yeah
01:46:09I think that I think there may just be a
01:46:11I mean and look there may be certain
01:46:13areas like you know particle physics or
01:46:14whatever where you you still in
01:46:15government money but like I think a lot
01:46:17of the current complex actually might be
01:46:18fundable the quality the quality work
01:46:19happening at it be fundable
01:46:21separately um let's see policy Think
01:46:24Tank you know that that's you know there
01:46:26are policy think tanks that are not
01:46:27associated with universities and so you
01:46:29know it's certainly um you know a viable
01:46:31thing to do separately people doing that
01:46:32today um moral instructor is my favorite
01:46:35one to think about breaking out
01:46:36separately which is um you know look
01:46:38there are many social movements that are
01:46:40not associated with University there are
01:46:42many um social
01:46:43organizations um activist groups um you
01:46:46know U churches right like you know new
01:46:49religions
01:46:51um you know like old religions right
01:46:54exactly uh which are maybe coming back a
01:46:57little bit right now um and so um yeah
01:47:00like I don't know it seems like Society
01:47:02has a lot of different ways to organize
01:47:03moral instructure that's not necessarily
01:47:05uh having a take place in a in a in a in
01:47:07a in a in a research University context
01:47:10yeah and I think that
01:47:12the I think the university one is very
01:47:15very tricky because it is counter to a
01:47:19lot of its other gos potentially um
01:47:22particularly you know Marketplace of
01:47:24ideas freedom of speech freedom of
01:47:27thought uh and you know I I I just think
01:47:31it's not the right people to be doing it
01:47:35um you know like they you know pastors
01:47:39and Priests and so forth have come under
01:47:41Fire but in a lot of ways they're much
01:47:43more the right people to be giving moral
01:47:45instruction because they actually spend
01:47:47time with their congregation they deal
01:47:49with the you know the actual trials and
01:47:52tribulations of kind of going off the
01:47:53moral path and how to get people back on
01:47:56it and they're they're like handson it's
01:47:58a tangible thing um whereas you know in
01:48:02a university a professor can spout off
01:48:05whatever the f he wants or she wants and
01:48:08then has no tie to that down the road
01:48:12they they don't live in their Community
01:48:13they don't have parents who go to the
01:48:15church and donate and so forth so
01:48:18I I I think in in some ways University
01:48:20is a worst place to do moral instruction
01:48:23now that it's no longer like a religious
01:48:25institution and if there was one thing I
01:48:28would take out of a university probably
01:48:30be that um and look I I think like I'm a
01:48:34big um believer in kind of an
01:48:41intellectual kind of discussion and
01:48:43instruction about ethics and morality
01:48:47like I actually believe in that a lot
01:48:48and I mean look I do it at work right
01:48:51like one of the things we talk to
01:48:53employees about is look you know we're
01:48:56in this situation what are we going to
01:48:58do are we going to do like what's
01:49:01transactional are we gonna do what's
01:49:03longterm are we gonna do what's right or
01:49:04we do what's makes us money in the short
01:49:06term and like that's like real moral
01:49:09instruction um and with real consequence
01:49:12that's gonna have real impact uh and
01:49:14that like I've got to live with the
01:49:15consequence they've got to live with the
01:49:17consequence uh and in a way it's a
01:49:20better context to do it than a
01:49:21university where you don't have any
01:49:24accountability any moral accountability
01:49:27uh so I think you're better off doing it
01:49:29almost anywhere than in a university or
01:49:32you could Andor you could also you could
01:49:35reconstitute the original religious
01:49:37University original idea of religious
01:49:40that right you could go back you could
01:49:42go back to the future you go back to the
01:49:43original idea right the original
01:49:45original idea shut Galileo's ass down
01:49:48you know do that kind of thing
01:49:51well no no no no no like like not even
01:49:53that's even further that's even further
01:49:54back I'm not suggesting going that far
01:49:56back um but no like the original Harvard
01:49:58the original Harvard business plan which
01:49:59was like to instruct moral leaders right
01:50:01um uh instruct pastors and moral leaders
01:50:03and you just have a you you can imagine
01:50:05institution that just does that and just
01:50:07doesn't do all the other things that
01:50:08have been added on for the last 400
01:50:09years look I think that would be very
01:50:11good in the sense that um
01:50:14look in my lifetime our society has
01:50:17degenerated no place more than
01:50:20you know what's right than right and
01:50:22wrong like there's no agreement on right
01:50:25and wrong anymore you know is stealing
01:50:28right well it's right if you're
01:50:31hungry okay you know is you know there
01:50:36there's certainly no right and wrong
01:50:38about um marriage or these kinds of
01:50:40things uh and I think that's caused a a
01:50:45real degeneration of society quality of
01:50:49life um you know outcomes of uh of the
01:50:54world and so like fixing that would be
01:50:58great but I I think the way we do it now
01:50:59is bananas it's it's it doesn't fit into
01:51:03the current bundle I would just say so
01:51:04having a independent moral University be
01:51:08fantastic there I mean they're certainly
01:51:10overtly religious ones um the you know
01:51:12the ones that we've lost yeah the ones
01:51:14that we've lost I think are maybe the
01:51:15ones that are kind of moral and ethical
01:51:16without being overtly religious which is
01:51:18a a real challenge real challenge in
01:51:20general but anyway so let's keep going
01:51:22so Sports League I think you'd probably
01:51:24argue that the sports function could
01:51:25just be its own thing yeah I I think
01:51:28that like this the sports league is
01:51:30immoral um just like fundamentally I
01:51:33think in Retros the university you mean
01:51:35the university university Bay Sports we
01:51:37talked about that last time Big Time
01:51:39college sports I think has gotten to a
01:51:42point where it's clearly imoral in that
01:51:43it's very clearly professional sports
01:51:47where they don't pay the employees um
01:51:49and that generates a
01:51:51colossal amount of money um and so I
01:51:56think you've got to fix that and I don't
01:51:59know that you can
01:52:01pay kind of like it it probably the
01:52:05right way to fix it is to spin it out um
01:52:08and have it continue to be affiliated
01:52:10with the university but not run by the
01:52:13university but run you know kind of by
01:52:15owners of the various teams or something
01:52:18you know more akin to the NFL the NBA
01:52:20because that's what it is um and you
01:52:23know and the athletes need to get paid
01:52:25it's just in
01:52:28crazy it's really wild that they don't
01:52:30that South Park did the very hilarious
01:52:33episode on this called the national
01:52:35crack baby Association and uh they went
01:52:39but the funniest part was Cartman went
01:52:41to go see the uh you know one of the
01:52:44kind of presidents of the universities
01:52:45and he goes and he's dressed like an old
01:52:48southern slave master and he goes how do
01:52:50you get away with paying with not paying
01:52:52your slaves and he goes slaves you mean
01:52:54our student athletes and he goes oh yeah
01:52:56student athletes and you're watching it
01:52:59and you're going
01:53:01yep that's exactly what's going on now
01:53:04like I said it's not all like not all
01:53:05Schools Athletic teams make that kind of
01:53:08money and not all athletic teams but the
01:53:09ones that do um right I I think need to
01:53:13be reformed like like in retrospect this
01:53:16is one of those things where like people
01:53:1720 years from now are going to go like I
01:53:20can't believe you guys did that you know
01:53:23that's that's G to be bad yeah that's
01:53:25right um and then the two the two other
01:53:27ones and this this these are serious
01:53:29topics but also a little bit little bit
01:53:30fun so adult daycare um and dating site
01:53:33right and so um you know like the adult
01:53:38daycare I mean look a lot of people just
01:53:39like graduate high school and go get a
01:53:41job right and so you know maybe that's
01:53:43maybe that's overblown or or maybe you
01:53:44could imagine like new like designed
01:53:47communities uh contexts maybe even uh
01:53:50entire buildings um where you have a you
01:53:52know sort of social cultural you know
01:53:54kind of Matrix that people can plug into
01:53:55yeah yeah like I mean you some degree
01:53:58like the armed services have a you know
01:54:00or that function in a way um you know
01:54:03where you okay you get to be 18 what are
01:54:05you g to do with your life you go to the
01:54:06Army you go to college you know like
01:54:07it's it's kind of this community that
01:54:10you step into that's not your family but
01:54:13you know you can't stay
01:54:15here kind of
01:54:17thing I
01:54:20or you know the corporate campus you
01:54:21know for a lot of for a lot of you know
01:54:22even even post College a lot of
01:54:24corporate campuses are kind of designed
01:54:25to perpetuate adult
01:54:27daycare right I'm just trying to think
01:54:29of the proposition to the parents who
01:54:31are paying for it you know at that point
01:54:33yeah like that seems hard we have a
01:54:36company there was something else that
01:54:38came out of it you know like that you
01:54:40went to adult daycare and then you got a
01:54:42job yeah well we have a so we have a we
01:54:44have a company where I you know he would
01:54:45certainly not Pitch it as adult daycare
01:54:47but we have a company that's intended to
01:54:48provide a much more you know Pleasant
01:54:50and and interesting and enjoyable
01:54:51experience um for um you know especially
01:54:53people new in their lives and careers as
01:54:55adults uh from a Housing and Community
01:54:58standpoint yes yes
01:55:01um yeah oh that yeah so that is that's a
01:55:05very good idea on it yeah yeah yeah we
01:55:07can't pre-announce it but yeah there's a
01:55:09there is a new idea in the portfolio
01:55:11that creates a place that is like a
01:55:14college dorm you know from a living
01:55:17perspective and has a community and so
01:55:19forth and so on you pay rent there um
01:55:22but you know rent similar that you would
01:55:24you know in any apartment but it kind of
01:55:25is a nice uh Bridge from you know kind
01:55:28of coming out of high school or college
01:55:31or or or whatnot and into the world in a
01:55:33way where you're not just living by
01:55:35yourself somewhere
01:55:36lonely yeah yeah and then dating site
01:55:40you know I'm just absolutely Furious
01:55:41that the dating apps took off after I
01:55:42was dating after I was finished dating
01:55:46um I would so much yeah like this is a
01:55:48hard one for me on I haven't been on a
01:55:50date in over 35 years so exactly so I I
01:55:55would just observe there are new ways
01:55:56for people to date today that are much
01:55:58easier than when when we when we were in
01:55:59college and so the dating site part of
01:56:01it might already be solved um H yeah
01:56:04they're certainly tools although um you
01:56:07know that that physical proximity
01:56:10uh is not something you can simulate
01:56:13online you know and there's a lot of my
01:56:16understanding is there's a lot of fake
01:56:17photos and
01:56:18whatnot people look better in their
01:56:20photos perhaps well there also
01:56:22credentialing so then this also comes
01:56:24back to credentialing which is one of
01:56:25the reasons why one of the reasons why
01:56:26college campuses are I mean one of the
01:56:28reasons a college campus is a hot house
01:56:29for dating is just it's a lot of young
01:56:30people who are together physically but
01:56:32another reason is because they they're
01:56:34all they all have a shared sense of
01:56:35identity um right they all have a shared
01:56:36credential which is they're all you know
01:56:38they're all at X you know XX college
01:56:40right and so they've all been validated
01:56:42you know at least to some extent um and
01:56:44then by the way that's also true later
01:56:45on in life you know a lot of uh people
01:56:47you know look for a lot of people who
01:56:49are col colle graduates want you know
01:56:50only want to date other college
01:56:51graduates or only want to date people
01:56:53who went to you know certain kinds of
01:56:54schools or whatever so so the
01:56:55credentialing the credentialing thing
01:56:57actually like reflects itself into this
01:56:59other sort of area of actual real life
01:57:01which is dating you know dating and then
01:57:03ultimately marriage and and and
01:57:04Offspring um and so you know we we
01:57:07should probably both not underestimate
01:57:08the actual utility of an existing
01:57:10College environment for that but also
01:57:12think about like well yeah but for
01:57:14example the cred you know could your
01:57:15credentialing agency could your
01:57:16independent credentialing agency also
01:57:18cred credential you as a
01:57:20as a as a viable marriage Prospect or
01:57:22dating that's exactly so I I love that
01:57:26part of the part of the thing okay and
01:57:28then we'll close we're at two hours and
01:57:29so we we'll close here quickly but um I
01:57:31I think there's basically fifth the
01:57:32fifth thing that could happen um is just
01:57:34basically just it's the existing system
01:57:36could just devolve um just it just it
01:57:39just unwind and the the way that it
01:57:40unwind is so the credentialing agency
01:57:43credentialing function shifts to the
01:57:44employers the education courses shift to
01:57:47you know alicart internet options
01:57:49research Bureau shifts to the function
01:57:51shifts to the kinds of things you know
01:57:52we were just talking about policy Think
01:57:54Tank on wines shifts to the independent
01:57:56think tanks you know moral instructor
01:57:58part loses credibility and just Withers
01:58:00over time social reformer Withers it's
01:58:02arguably happening already immigration
01:58:04agency uh maybe that continues maybe
01:58:06that's the ultimate business model is
01:58:07just get uh get have high paying
01:58:09immigrants um sports leagues you know
01:58:12break out go independent become
01:58:13professional sports you know there's as
01:58:16you're saying adult daycare dating site
01:58:18people just find other ways to live and
01:58:19date um and so it just may it may be
01:58:22that you know it it just simply may be
01:58:23that just things just like unwind um and
01:58:25you know in the scenario sitting here 50
01:58:27years from now these institutions still
01:58:29exist in some form but they they look
01:58:30increasingly just like you know kind of
01:58:32archaic and and you know kind of you
01:58:34know kind of just like I don't know just
01:58:36like not you know they're just yeah I
01:58:38don't know it's like it's like you know
01:58:39there's lots of institutions in life
01:58:41where it's just like wow you know you
01:58:42drive down the street and there's a you
01:58:43know I won't pick on anybody but there's
01:58:44a you know whatever and you're just like
01:58:46wow that thing still exists you know
01:58:48that's interesting and they're they're
01:58:49just like much less important uh because
01:58:51they kind of they sort of isolate
01:58:52themselves um uh sort of socially and
01:58:55and economically sort of wall themselves
01:58:57off from from from the general progress
01:58:59of society and so is that yeah how what
01:59:00how would you think about that yeah like
01:59:02I mean I think that it's pretty fragile
01:59:05now you know in terms of the value
01:59:07proposition in that it's so expensive
01:59:10and got you know the the the cost
01:59:12relative to the value is so precarious
01:59:16and just like as an example like if the
01:59:19US government said we're not going to
01:59:22guarantee college loans anymore that
01:59:25would be you know
01:59:27cataclysmic um and then if employers
01:59:31were
01:59:32like we're not g to you know there's no
01:59:35SAT score there's no grades that mean
01:59:37anything there's no rigor um we're just
01:59:41going to not value college degrees
01:59:43anymore that would C so the there
01:59:46there's things that are
01:59:47actually re reasonably close to
01:59:50happening that could collapse the system
01:59:52or at least you know really alter it you
01:59:54know irrevocably so I think that you
01:59:57know the
01:59:58universities very much have to think
02:00:01hard about like Shoring themselves up on
02:00:04the value proposition in particular I me
02:00:06I just think it's getting very weak for
02:00:08students um and that's a dangerous place
02:00:11to be in if you're in University yeah
02:00:13and then the other thing I nominated is
02:00:14like I I you know and this sounds a
02:00:16little bit crazy right now but like I
02:00:17you know I don't think we're necessarily
02:00:18that far away from a full-fledged
02:00:20political Revolt um which is the you
02:00:23know the constituency of these places is
02:00:25just it's not a majority Society it's a
02:00:27it's a small minority um in terms of the
02:00:29the people who actually benefit from
02:00:30from from the the system today in the
02:00:33popul in the voter base and then um and
02:00:35then uh you know these a lot of these
02:00:37places become so politicized and they're
02:00:39so they you know they inject themselves
02:00:40so directly into National
02:00:42politics um right and so they they sort
02:00:45of have declared themselves and you see
02:00:47you see this in every metric and every
02:00:48number distri tion of Prof Professor
02:00:50ideology and and all the social activism
02:00:52that happens and so forth It's just just
02:00:54like you know overwhelming indications
02:00:55and then increasingly public right and
02:00:57like and you know just to since we're at
02:00:59the two-hour Mark I'll just I'll just
02:01:00you know kind of be be blunt um it's
02:01:02like I mean look like right-wing media
02:01:03for better for worse is just consumed
02:01:05with story after story after Story of
02:01:07just like crazy bananas you know uh you
02:01:09know crazy hostile things that
02:01:10universities are doing um and so you
02:01:13know like you could it hasn't happened
02:01:16but you could imagine a point where just
02:01:17basically like you know the you know
02:01:20half or more of the country just at some
02:01:21point puts its foot down and and its
02:01:23elective rep Representatives put their
02:01:24foot down and they're just like we're
02:01:25just not doing this anymore we're not
02:01:27paying for it anymore yeah right if the
02:01:29country took a sharp or maybe even a not
02:01:32so sharp right turn then you could
02:01:35imagine an Administration and a congress
02:01:38going why are we paying for this yeah
02:01:41yeah yeah yeah and it's just it's a
02:01:43small number of prog the really
02:01:45cautionary note here would be um it's a
02:01:47small number of programs um that pay for
02:01:49the whole thing right so it's it's
02:01:50federal student loans it's Federal
02:01:51research funding it's and it's a couple
02:01:53of things in the tax law and a few other
02:01:55things and so it's it's not like it it's
02:01:57not like it would take it would not take
02:01:59two years to figure out how to kill
02:02:00these things yeah from a legislative
02:02:02from a legislative standpoint it would
02:02:03take about two minutes and so it feels
02:02:05like that and look maybe that never
02:02:06materializes because maybe these things
02:02:07just are so important and they have such
02:02:09existing credibility and you know they
02:02:10have so much political stroke and you
02:02:12know their graduates have so much power
02:02:13and so forth and so maybe that never
02:02:15happens or maybe it's one of those
02:02:16things where there's a Tipping Point and
02:02:17at some point people are just like I'm
02:02:18not gon I'm not going to tolerate this
02:02:21anymore
02:02:24yep on that note I would register
02:02:27register that for anybody still
02:02:29listening as
02:02:30a uh good all right good uh we I think
02:02:33covered it um we as as predicting in the
02:02:35beginning we did not get to the Q&A so
02:02:37Ben if you're if you're up for it um we
02:02:38will continue collecting questions um
02:02:40and if there's popular demand uh we will
02:02:42do one more we'll do part three uh maybe
02:02:44next week and we'll do a Q&A and then we
02:02:46will um that'll be that'll be uh that'll
02:02:48be six hours content from us on this
02:02:50topic and that'll probably be enough for
02:02:51a while but we have enjoyed talking
02:02:53about it and hopefully you've enjoyed
02:02:54listening to it yes thank you thank you
02:02:58[Music]
02:03:08everyone
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