00:00remember we were talking and she was
00:01like you keep saying scalable celebrity
00:03were like what does that mean like what
00:04does that look like and I was like
00:06you've probably heard of Loma Kayla also
00:09known as Michaela Souza a 19 year old
00:11Brazilian American influencer with
00:13millions of followers online
00:15she's partnered with the likes of
00:16Samsung and Prada but she's also not
00:21you might have also heard of the other
00:22digital influencers out there whether it
00:24be Knox Frost EMA or even olympio
00:27hinians doll Quake well in today's
00:30conversation we get an inside look into
00:32the origin story behind Lil Michaela a
00:34virtual Trailblazer created in 2016 by
00:37and we do so with Trevor mcfadrey's and
00:39Isaac bratzel Trevor was the co-founder
00:41and creative genius behind Brad while
00:43Isaac was the chief design and
00:44Innovation officer so he was actually in
00:46charge of creating the Avatar and
00:48running the design and Tech teams
00:50so we get to hear firsthand what
00:52inspired this experiment and also what
00:54early signs were showing that Michaela
00:55was not just a novel idea but a
00:57character that people were really
00:58resonating with even writing fan fiction
01:02and in an era where it's easier than
01:04ever to spin up a character where does
01:06this all go when an influencer can truly
01:08look however you want it to look how do
01:11you decide how do you create a narrative
01:12that resonates how do you get past the
01:14uncanny valley and what are the ethics
01:16of all this we cover all this and more
01:18and I'm truly so excited to have you
01:20listen to this conversation
01:21as a reminder the content here is for
01:24informational purposes only should not
01:26be taken as legal business tax or
01:28investment advice or be used to evaluate
01:30any investment or security and is not
01:32directed at any investors or potential
01:34investors in any accz fund for more
01:37details please see a16z.com disclosures
01:50it's 2016. and I just want to paint a
01:52picture for the listeners maybe you guys
01:54also need a reminder 2016 was a very
01:56different era uh Britain just voted to
02:00leave the EU Rihanna just released work
02:02openai and Tick Tock were literally just
02:05founded like they're absolute infancy
02:07stages so again we're in a very
02:10different world and somehow Trevor you
02:12had this Insight this inkling that a
02:16virtual influencer like Lil Michaela
02:17should be created so what what was the
02:20key Insight at that time
02:22yeah it's funny I think but the reality
02:24was like much like you mentioned we were
02:25living in this kind of heightened
02:27political Moment Like post-trump
02:28post-brexit and me just being terminally
02:31online had kind of spent these different
02:34Evolutions from like web one to web 2 uh
02:37into like web three or that's kind of
02:39like or the present and seeing these
02:41different media moments and the
02:43narratives they could create and how
02:44that could kind of like shape the
02:45ideologies and belief systems of young
02:47people especially and you know being in
02:49the States was hyper aware of like what
02:51happened on 4chan and you know what was
02:54happening on social and mean magic and
02:57what it meant to create narratives that
02:59could you know capture heart and minds
03:02how effective those can be in the
03:04double-edged sword that presented and
03:05kind of in parallel I had kind of fallen
03:08in love with the with this this data set
03:10we're on a show called Will and Grace
03:11that I love that said that like Will and
03:13Grace was largely responsible for gay
03:15marriage in the U.S that like public
03:17polling was tied to the ratings of that
03:18show and so it seemed like there was an
03:21um social you know Instagram like kind
03:24of like visual platforms that could be
03:25used for telling fictional stories and
03:27that was really the dream was like if
03:29you were going to build a modern Disney
03:30or Marvel now you probably wouldn't want
03:33to start in comic books or or in
03:35theaters you'd want to start where the
03:37eyeballs are which was you know really
03:38on social and so that was a vision yeah
03:40like can we create Disney on social can
03:42we tell stories that are as engaging as
03:44a Kardashian or uh Jake Paul but kind of
03:47imbue these ideologies that make for a
03:50more tolerant empathetic world yeah
03:52totally I mean I love that you mentioned
03:54some of these other characters or
03:55influencers that we see in TV shows for
03:58example I love this idea Disney's for
04:00social like people have shown that they
04:02have an affinity to not just humans but
04:04characters and TV shows and these
04:07Illustrated characters but was there
04:09some sort of insight that you saw where
04:11to me I don't know if we saw very many
04:13virtual influencers that looked like
04:15humans what was the Insight of like well
04:18Michaela is fake but she also looks
04:21super real she was like almost like a
04:22new breed you know what I mean yeah uh I
04:25mean they were they were like zero and
04:27that's largely why like Isaac is in the
04:29picture I mean like no one was doing
04:31photorealistic like bipedal human
04:33characters there's this concept of The
04:36Uncanny Valley that you know there is
04:38this kind of Middle Ground between what
04:41an actual human likes and what like a a
04:43a cartoonish looking like Hello Kitty
04:45human looks like where it looks too
04:47human but not human enough and you get
04:49freaked out it's like a Polar Express
04:51girl is often excited in this stuff but
04:53as a result you didn't really see anyone
04:55doing any of that stuff and you know
04:56there were things happening in Asia
04:58Hatsune Miku you know we're standing on
05:00the shoulders of giants like Miku but we
05:04were interested in I think doing
05:06something a on social and that was
05:09already going to be challenging a lot of
05:10norms like there was still this
05:11perception that social media was for
05:14non-fiction you'd be telling a fictional
05:16narrative inside of that space and be
05:18doing it with with a character and if it
05:21minimize as much of the novelty as
05:23possible and keep as much of it familiar
05:24as possible I thought we had a better
05:26chance of succeeding and I thought it
05:28would be really easy I was like yeah we
05:29can just make a virtual human no big
05:32and insert six years later you know
05:35trying to figure it out still but Isaac
05:36really was like the the really the key
05:38in getting that figured out yeah so
05:40Isaac let's hear from you you get this
05:43this idea from Trevor you're like okay
05:45let's just make this virtual human and
05:47you have to make this a reality so I
05:49want to talk to both of you about two
05:51things one the design like all of the
05:54decisions that you had to make about
05:55exactly what she looked like and then
05:57also the narrative but Isaac like
05:59talking about that that design and
06:01actually making this real what were your
06:03first steps and like what are all the
06:04little things that maybe sound
06:06simplistic but maybe we're actually
06:10yeah I mean I think it's always really
06:12hard but I think we got lucky in a lot
06:14of ways um in terms of Mickey's design
06:16one is we had a CEO and Trevor who
06:18actually dove into some of like he found
06:203D and these softwares and kind of like
06:22started making that design so when I
06:23came in it's really just like taking
06:24that like looking at what's kind of
06:26working already and saying like okay now
06:28let's triple charge that let's make this
06:29able to be book realistic let's make it
06:32able to be animated and all these other
06:33things right so I think for us it was a
06:36little bit of like having a really good
06:38sense from from Trevor and from some of
06:39the cultural uh savants we had on the
06:42team that really understand internet
06:44culture and kind of like how to connect
06:45with with the audience that they were
06:46targeting right and you know luckily we
06:48found something that obviously resonated
06:50with a whole lot of people yeah and it
06:51really did resonate and I've heard
06:53Trevor you talk about again all of these
06:55little decisions that you had to make
06:57about exactly what she looked like I
06:58mean when we're influencers online as
07:01ourselves like you only have the face
07:04that you're born with but when you're
07:06starting new with a virtual influencer
07:08you literally can make that influencer
07:09look like anything and that's like
07:12amazing because you have this Clean
07:14Slate but it also is like yeah does she
07:16have freckles or not like how long's her
07:17hair what race is she how old is she
07:19what are her beliefs and so given Trevor
07:23uses the term terminally online and
07:24sounds like you still are how did you
07:26use your your background I mean you also
07:29worked at Spotify you've like toured
07:30with Katy Perry like you have this
07:32cultural understanding of what people
07:34like and how did that feed into
07:36ultimately what you built into this
07:40yeah it's an interesting question
07:42because when you're doing things like
07:43this it's so open-ended I mean the other
07:44idea is like Michaela didn't need to be
07:46a fixed uh aesthetic or character it
07:49could be this kind of like a
07:50shape-shifter ever evolving uh you know
07:52in the narrative Michaela's 19 forever
07:53and so there were decisions like I
07:55wanted to create constraints because as
07:57a creative person I like having
07:58constraints I think it kind of like
07:59breeds really like interesting ideas but
08:02you know some of the kind of early
08:03things yeah I had worked in like making
08:05music as an artist and as a producer for
08:07a very long time and it was like pretty
08:08clear to me that there were these like
08:10underserved really passionate audiences
08:12in Latin America and so you know if you
08:15ever look at some like pop stars
08:17Instagram 10 of the comments are coming
08:19to Brazil come to Brazil come to Brazil
08:22you know so in the narrative I
08:24definitely wanted to like engage you
08:25know young people especially people
08:27Portuguese and so Michaela you know was
08:30programmed to be like half Brazilian
08:32half Spanish right and like the idea
08:34that we could engage you know kids I
08:36think were underserved by influencers
08:38who were kind of looking towards Europe
08:40and kind of like Western Europe Western
08:41Europe especially beyond that I think
08:43like you know the age thing I'm a big
08:46fan of pop culture and I think generally
08:47have kind of seen this Motif where
08:50people engage with media that it's like
08:52five to seven years older than them so
08:55like you know Hannah Montana is running
08:57around high school but it was like kids
08:59that were like Middle School younger
09:00watching that program and so Michaela
09:02being 19 was quite intentional because I
09:04really felt like you know in a post
09:06PG-13 America like movie ratings really
09:10neutered uh kind of like Middle Ground
09:12of Cinema and television where I used to
09:15have these kind of like John Hughes
09:16films he's like coming of age tales that
09:18really talked about the issues like
09:19people were facing and didn't talk down
09:21to them so one thing we always talked
09:23about early on was like we wanted to
09:25tell stories at like eye level like we
09:26didn't want to talk down to kids we
09:28wanted to address them like they were
09:28adults and they had complicated lives
09:31and they have you know they're aware of
09:33the turmoils in the world they're well
09:34aware of like impending climate change
09:36they're well aware of like economic
09:37Strife like pandemics like these issues
09:40affect everyone it's it's not just you
09:42know cliche say by the Bell monkeys like
09:45we can we can go deeper and then beyond
09:47that like we just made assumptions about
09:49what narratives would work and how we
09:51could kind of imbue these ideas of
09:53Tolerance of like otherness and then you
09:55just try things you know I think
09:58people were probably like wow how did
10:00you know that she'd be so revered in
10:02fashion and like I had no idea you know
10:05we want her to look cool and all of a
10:08sudden fashion raised their hands yeah I
10:10mean I want to talk about the narrative
10:11that you built out because it seems
10:12really critical to the success of Lil
10:14Michaela but also like you mentioned you
10:17were surprised by things like what were
10:19some of those early signs where you're
10:20like oh wow we've got something here for
10:23me I get kind of like Theory brained and
10:25I'm like talking about these like
10:26Concepts and ideas that I'm really
10:28excited about and often they they don't
10:30apply in the real world but I talk a lot
10:32about this idea of like pair of fiction
10:33this idea of like telling fictional
10:35stories and spacious reserved for
10:37non-fiction and the big one being like
10:39professional wrestling WWE or whatever
10:41it is yeah this idea that you're
10:43watching people in a ring where you
10:44watch sports taking place boxing other
10:46things and people are getting hit with
10:48chairs and they're really getting hit
10:50but you're told that it's fake and you
10:53know and like in a kind of an infinite
10:55scroll world where you know nothing
10:57makes you take pause
11:00these things that kind of disrupt these
11:03patterns that you're familiar with like
11:04make you pause and like say like what's
11:06going on and so so much of what we were
11:08doing was really trying to like create
11:10these para fictional moments where
11:11you're like wait a minute Michaela's at
11:14Coachella is that really Coachella wait
11:17a minute like a brand is talking about
11:20her being at Coachella and that lets
11:22credibility to the idea so the moments
11:25that I think that you know for me to
11:26jump out obviously was like Shane Dawson
11:29um when Shane Dawson made this YouTube
11:31video that included Michaela in these
11:33conspiracy theories about what she could
11:35be like that adds his other kind of like
11:37meta narrative layer to it right that
11:40are then kind of like two pounds like
11:42the reality of it all and so that that
11:44stuff was like really special to me and
11:45quite fun and quite cool and Isaac do
11:47you have memories of things that really
11:51I 100 agree that Shane Dawson one is
11:53really cool and I think it was any time
11:55there was a thing that kind of made it
11:56real to me because for me the thing that
11:58I was always worried about when I got
12:00there was like is this just a
12:01reactionary thing like people see
12:03Michaela and on Instagram they have a
12:04reaction right but when you could see
12:06fans really engage and like so somebody
12:08would respond to Michaela and then there
12:10would be a whole bunch of fans that
12:11would like come to her defense and like
12:12explain the whole story The Shane Dawson
12:14video and all like they attract on all
12:16this stuff but you can see how much
12:17people really cared and were into it and
12:18like there were fans that knew more
12:20about the backstory than I did at
12:21certain points where I was like oh man
12:24um and then yeah the the Coachella
12:25moment was huge for me because it was
12:27like a technological thing and I was
12:28like well this is really real like we're
12:30not just doing still images in magazines
12:32and stuff like we're gonna go in real
12:34time and try to interview like musicians
12:36for Coachella and like that was around
12:38the same time as the Calvin Klein ad and
12:39some of this stuff where we're like okay
12:41we're really trying to do something
12:42interesting now yeah like rehashing the
12:44trauma of those moments where we're just
12:46like working around the clock trying to
12:47like do things to take you know 100
12:49person teams years in just like a few
12:52weeks or months it was totally mental I
12:54remember the hall a couple Halloweens
12:56where there were all these fans just as
12:59Michaela and one of the things we talked
13:00a lot about when we were designing the
13:02character was maintaining this Halloween
13:03costume right like if you were going to
13:05be Michaela for Halloween or their
13:07identifiers people would know who you
13:09were and like the space buns the
13:10freckles like certain things like that
13:12were things that we try not to deviate
13:14from too much I think that was one of
13:15the brilliant insights that I've had
13:16early on is like people like
13:18recognizable like instantly because if
13:20we change it too much right you lose
13:21that kind of like instant
13:22recognizability and so Michaela just
13:24like sticking with the space buns you
13:26know having the freckles like these just
13:28really recognizable features so I think
13:29that was really brilliant honestly yeah
13:31I think I've heard you talk about the
13:33right balance between
13:35somebody that almost anyone could
13:37resonate with like people aren't even
13:39sure like exactly where she's from but
13:41then at the same time these iconic
13:43aspects where you're like oh I haven't
13:44seen that before so it's like a nice
13:46balance in her look but you've mentioned
13:48fan fiction it's always fascinating to
13:50hear that like fans give the character a
13:53life of its own it sounds like this was
13:54the case tell me more about this
13:56narrative that you guys ended up
13:57building over years and also whether any
13:59of this fan involvement did that
14:01actually help you guys curve that
14:04narrative or just that narrative it
14:05seems like it's easier than ever for
14:07someone to create one of these virtual
14:09influencers and given that that may be
14:11the case that like there's going to be
14:13this flood of them how important is
14:16building a narrative in getting this
14:18traction having people really resonate
14:20with a character like this I mean it's
14:23it's all extremely hard but I think
14:25narrative is is you know like
14:27unthinkably hard right you know there's
14:28all kinds of books you can read about
14:30why you shouldn't build a narrative
14:32media businesses because you you it's
14:35like building a fashion business like
14:36you have to keep things interesting
14:38forever like you can't really keep lost
14:40interesting for so long like The
14:42Sopranos runs out of steam or maybe not
14:43a Show's not perfect but I think you
14:46know one of the ways we tried to solve
14:48for it or I thought about it was like
14:49integrating Michaela into the real world
14:51like oh this is funny like thinking
14:54about a lot of these Concepts but like
14:55one of the things we talked about a lot
14:57was kind of inverting the traditional
14:58media pyramid were traditionally kind of
15:00started with this like longer form asset
15:02Like a Star Wars and then you kind of
15:04iterate In Like a Star Wars video game
15:06comic book all the apps like a
15:08lightsaber you could buy at Target and
15:10so you have this pyramid that moves from
15:11like big expensive long-form asset into
15:13this like smaller thing we want to
15:15invert that it's probably just like a
15:16character there's still image and then
15:17work up that stack into like longer form
15:19television and film right and the dream
15:21was to actually expand upon that like
15:23television and film like one of the
15:25reasons I love the Kardashians and like
15:28their narrative universe is that it's
15:30infinitely deep you know because they're
15:32human beings you know you can work
15:34through all of you know Kim's father
15:36Robert Kardashians OJ case into like his
15:39family tree and to like Armenian
15:41conflict and I mean like you can go as
15:44far back as you'd like and so by
15:46integrating Michaela into our world by
15:48having her work for bread or firebred or
15:51have you know these like real world
15:54boyfriends and other things like
15:57fans could go super deep and then they
16:00can start to speculate and they can riff
16:01and they can actually connect dots that
16:03we wouldn't see all the times and so the
16:05other part of that was we really tried
16:07to build you know a a technology
16:09organization disguised as a media
16:10organization so we had like data science
16:12teams every week bringing back what
16:15worked and what didn't building
16:16taxonomies on images and videos wow
16:18Isaac tell me more about that you were
16:20part of the team that actually helped
16:21this come to life like okay Michaela's
16:23apparently now dating this one person
16:25like how do we actually execute on that
16:27and should we change it and I think at
16:29one point Michaela was dating a real
16:31life person too right so there's all
16:32these like Dynamics and yeah tell me
16:34more about like operationally how do you
16:37yeah I mean early days we were really
16:39small and it was crazy fun we're trying
16:41to do things that were just like Way
16:42Beyond what the team of that size and
16:44experience levels like you know should
16:46be trying to do but I do think you know
16:48the Trevor is really your point like
16:49this really quick feedback loop between
16:52like when you're starting off you have
16:54the ability to like do this quick thing
16:55and get that reaction immediately and
16:57like you said steer that character in
16:58her narrative to the fans that are
16:59engaging right which then informs what
17:01you're going to do when you start to do
17:02more medium and long form stuff and I
17:04thought that was a really cool thing
17:05that I learned from broad it's kind of
17:07this reverse pyramid that Trevor talks
17:08about it's like if you start with a
17:10movie you're kind of like here's a
17:12script we're gonna take a shot and see
17:13if it lands it right and if everything
17:15hits perfectly then maybe you go from
17:16there but this is almost like let's
17:18introduce this character super early in
17:20the lowest form possible and see what
17:22resonates and what what hits and kind of
17:24build the story out of the fan
17:25engagement which is just like kind of
17:27this radical idea at least it wasn't me
17:28at the time I hadn't never really seen
17:29that so using that then to inform the
17:32longer form content and kind of like
17:33having this pretty good idea that okay
17:35this is going to work now so now we can
17:36go and probably create you know a five
17:38minute music video I'm A real-time
17:39character which is that was its own
17:42whole challenge so I mean seriously how
17:45do you create that I I guess today the
17:46technology is getting better but like
17:49what are the technologies that are going
17:50into creating little Michaela and then
17:52not just Michaela on Instagram but these
17:55music videos I think she's on Spotify
17:56like what technologies are you actually
17:59using to accomplish all this
18:01yeah I mean there's a lot of different
18:02ones I think that there's a huge um I
18:04would say an order order of magnitude
18:05difference between like the still images
18:07on Instagram and doing actual walk from
18:09animated content right that stuff that's
18:11typically reserved for really high
18:13budget films and you know AAA games for
18:16like a hyper realistic digital human to
18:17be doing that stuff so that was really
18:19challenging I mean I think we we broke a
18:21lot of ground there and the technology
18:22was coming along so we were able to do
18:24it somewhat but like we're now in a
18:26phase where it's starting to become I
18:27think even referring to the stuff that
18:29it's it's starting to become more and
18:30more realistic for smaller Studios to be
18:32able to do that but it was still a
18:34blocker you know I think what we were
18:35really what we're hoping to do was
18:37somewhat blocked by the ability to like
18:39create really expensive like long-form
18:41content of animated digital humans that
18:43are that's really expensive so we want
18:44to make more characters and create more
18:46content and do all these things when we
18:48ran into like you know you get stuck in
18:50a certain platform when you build out
18:51this technology piece like it's really
18:53hard you can't just go be in a video
18:55game instantly you can't just like go to
18:57HBO and Euphoria and be like yeah sure
18:58here's Michaela put her in your film
18:59it's not easy like that it's offensive
19:01in fact it's doing and anytime we have
19:03those kind of opportunities we had to
19:04wait the opportunity cost of diverting
19:06our whole team towards doing that thing
19:08and like dropping Michaela's internal
19:10narrative and I think that's you know
19:12that was kind of one of those big
19:13learnings for like okay in order to see
19:15all this thing we really would have to
19:16have a big big investment to like get
19:18over this bottleneck at this point in
19:20time so did you end up getting over that
19:22bottleneck because I think you did end
19:23up launching a few other influencers
19:25Bermuda block of like what was the the
19:28next steps or how did you decide okay
19:29yes we are going to expand this past
19:31Michaela we are going to take on some of
19:33these really cool opportunities and
19:34invest in doing these longer form video
19:37narratives and so yeah like what were
19:39the next steps past that early traction
19:42yeah it's funny I'm thinking back to
19:43kind of like original pitch stuff and
19:46I think initially it wasn't clear
19:48investors like how this could be a
19:49venture-sized bet but like the BET to me
19:52was always like okay there's a coming
19:54Computing shift I called it spatial
19:56Computing which I guess is probably
19:57invest now like the metaverse or
19:59whatever else yeah it seemed like all of
20:02the people that were building for the
20:03metaverse were building kind of
20:04universes and expecting people just to
20:06show up if you believe they will come
20:08and I always thought that like a
20:10character would pull you into a merchant
20:11platforms so like you know Pikachu is
20:14the reason you get Pokemon go you know
20:16you don't want to just walk around your
20:17yard scanning stuff you want to follow
20:18Pikachu somewhere and so like if we kind
20:20of build a connected tissue between you
20:22know web 2 and this emergent spatial
20:25Computing thing we'd be way out in front
20:27and I think looking back on it now that
20:28things we kind of got backwards or I got
20:30backwards was I was like okay billions
20:31flowing into VR and autonomous vehicles
20:34and we're gonna have this huge shift
20:36that's going to allow you know
20:38generative media to come really quickly
20:40and then once we can do that really
20:41quickly a lot of value is going to shift
20:43to this like spiritual Computing world
20:44and be able to build digital account
20:46enemies and I think covet accelerated
20:49digital economies before we actually had
20:51the these these tools to do generative
20:53media like at the pace we'd like and so
20:55we had to make decisions about where we
20:57could be efficient and how we could
20:59build models that could Port really well
21:01you know so it's like cheeky things like
21:03anyone can kind of do a visual human
21:05that looks good in a wonderful image but
21:06like speaking you know building really
21:09compelling facial rigs that can be
21:10driven effectively super tough Isaac's
21:13really good at it it's insane you know
21:15blacco was like what if we just covered
21:16his mouth all the time you know it's
21:18like simple things like that where he's
21:19always wearing a mask he's always
21:20covering his face it has a little bit of
21:22mystery adds some narrative as a
21:23constraint the creative people but it
21:25allowed us to create stuff pretty more
21:28efficiently so it's like little things
21:29like that feet are hard they often are
21:33you know what I mean like hair is crazy
21:36difficult so yeah Rocco is bald you know
21:39Michaela's hair is pretty much fixed
21:41except for a couple strategic things
21:42that move like let's really limited
21:44limit things that could cause a lot of
21:47trying to figure it out from there
21:49that is fascinating because I mean with
21:51just like the generative AI stuff today
21:53it's like that the Trope is like the
21:55hands you know everyone's like oh don't
21:56look at the hands always hide the hands
21:58and so Isaac are there other things
22:00where you're like yes there are things
22:02that people who have not ventured down
22:04this Rabbit Hole have not built this
22:06don't know is actually like surprisingly
22:09yeah there's so many things I think one
22:11of the things that anytime we're outside
22:13of a technology we have this idea that
22:15computers you do one plus one equals two
22:17and computers are always going to do
22:18that thing and there's nothing farther
22:19from the truth when you get into this
22:21stuff everything breaks everything
22:22crashes yeah this is why you know you
22:24have big Studio models to get you know
22:26these high-end like budgets that just go
22:28crazy expensive because at the end of
22:30the day you have to get a Pixel Perfect
22:32to fit into this film to fit into this
22:34universe exactly right and it's just the
22:36only way to do that is still time and
22:37money and people have the problem what
22:38we were trying to do is like the lowest
22:40scale possible we're doing this on
22:41social media we can get to 90 quality
22:43right people are not going to care if
22:45like this one FlyAway of her hair is
22:47like slightly not quite right right so
22:49we're like how can we just like
22:51eliminate 90 of the cost and the time
22:52and get nine percent of the quality
22:54right because it's kind of a power law
22:55inverse but yeah this is It's just so
22:58complex and so hard and even today I
23:00think one of the things we're going to
23:01run into a lot is this idea of like oh
23:03anybody can do this now with AI tools
23:05and everything else and to me it feels a
23:07little bit like suggesting that it
23:09because able 10 is like five dollars now
23:11anybody can go be a superstar musician
23:13because they have this this technology
23:15and like technically speaking and like
23:17having the skill set to do it it's not
23:18true and then definitely narrative and
23:20culturally and having the like ability
23:21to like connect with fans that way it's
23:23definitely not true you know the
23:24technology piece is going to be so
23:25enabling and my hope is that it will
23:27really help people that have that
23:29ability and that desire to connect and
23:30tell these stories I really like I
23:32resonate so strongly with Trevor's kind
23:34of vision of like storytelling being
23:36transformative and I think that that's
23:37so true and today more than ever I think
23:40if we were five years later with
23:41Michaela we would have been able to do
23:42things that would have been like much
23:44bigger and even broader because I think
23:45a lot of the bottlenecks are going to be
23:46removed very soon yeah I love that you
23:49said that that you know the technology
23:51is a democratizing force but I can also
23:53see how people will look to Lil Michaela
23:55and be like oh I couldn't do this six
23:57years ago but I can do it today and so
24:00on that topic like are there any I guess
24:03any wisdom from your like six years of
24:05doing this and building this and seeing
24:08what works what doesn't work how much
24:10harder it really is to get traction to
24:12get people to care about something that
24:15you would almost like tell those people
24:16not so much to drive them away from this
24:19idea but to understand what it really
24:22takes this kind of no easy way to say
24:25this but like if democratizing Force
24:27like all this technology lowering
24:28barriers just need participants and so
24:30if I could believe if you're creating
24:31media on Tick Tock right like you're not
24:33even competing for attention in your in
24:35your following or your social graph like
24:36you're competing against the glow you
24:38need to have something more compelling
24:40than tens of millions of people that are
24:42generating stuff and so it's super hard
24:45you know one of the things I try to do
24:46is like understand where you have
24:48advantages and and where you have kind
24:50of like where you have an edge so for us
24:53it was music right like you know maybe
24:55you have 10 thousand people are
24:57releasing music on Spotify this Friday
24:59can we be in the top 100 yeah I think
25:02knowing where where you're where you're
25:04really gifted and where you can
25:06out-compete others because it's hyper
25:07competitive for sure Isaac on the
25:09technology side I just want to ask you
25:11super quickly because you're building a
25:12company here that enables some of this
25:14right from my understanding your company
25:16is not taking the like full generative
25:19AI approach right where you just like go
25:21into something like mid-journey and spin
25:23up and net New Image so how are you
25:25thinking about that the different ways
25:26these new technologies are coming
25:27together sure yeah I mean I think right
25:30now I think that there's understandably
25:32a lot of excitement about mid-journey
25:33and really tools that I call pixel
25:36pushing at the end of the day if you're
25:37doing 2D morphing of images then I feel
25:41like if in a more immersive world so use
25:43the dirty m-word metaverse or spatial
25:45competing word for it like that to be
25:47immersive world when you create 3D
25:48avatars or 3D things in 3D worlds like
25:51they are fully immersive and they have
25:53like they're able to not be
25:54interoperable within a more virtual
25:56world and that's what I think is coming
25:58um not necessarily the metaverse in
26:00terms of like what we might think of it
26:01now but just this this world that's
26:03going to come more and more out of
26:04gaming where things are going to be more
26:06um and working in 3D for like a decade
26:08you start to understand like how much we
26:10underestimate what another dimension
26:12means when you're adding it to something
26:13like especially technological we don't
26:15think exponentially we think additively
26:17so we're like oh yeah you have that that
26:18third dimension and it's like yeah just
26:20another layer and it's not it's
26:21completely a whole word of magnitude
26:23shift I also I really like what Trevor
26:26um about rather than building like this
26:28metaverse worlds and focusing on that
26:30but like focusing on the character in
26:31The Narrative and having them be the
26:32interactive tissue I really view that as
26:34one of the ways that really some of this
26:36stuff can start to land which is if we
26:39avatars that are scalable like digital
26:41humans and digital people that can
26:43actually connect with fans in a real way
26:45and have that be the way that ushers
26:46them through this kind of more virtual
26:48world and create more of a human
26:49connective layer that's what I think
26:51would be really really cool because I
26:52think a lot of times you know if you
26:54look at what's going on now with a lot
26:56of the virtual world stuff it just feels
26:57very impersonal to me so I don't think
26:59that this is not including some of the
27:00general AI tools I think it's like the
27:02generator eye tools and the stuff you
27:04see image space right now is very
27:07um two-dimensional I don't think that's
27:09actually gonna be the solution I think
27:10what it's going to be is when those
27:11tools are able to really generate and
27:14and include into like a
27:15three-dimensional World which is
27:16something that we will be focused on
27:17right so you're basically saying like a
27:19lot of these tools right now are in 2D
27:21you think that there's so much more
27:23Fidelity in 3D but then there's also
27:25things on top of that right like voice
27:26and the ability to animate the 3D
27:29character but I guess as we do see more
27:32of these virtual characters these people
27:34who are not as people say not real
27:37people how do you guys think this
27:39actually just changes our relationship
27:43creators or influencers I should say
27:45today most people don't have the
27:48incentives to create a virtual
27:50influencer of themselves because you
27:52know again they didn't have access to
27:53the technology it wasn't good enough but
27:56as more of these characters come online
27:58like why would I want to put myself out
28:00there because I can be like a more
28:02beautiful version I can change my voice
28:03I can be you know I can I can basically
28:06become exactly what I want to be and I'm
28:09not constrained by like the physical
28:10nature of like what I was born with
28:14I also can't be canceled right like
28:16there's there's these Dynamics to like
28:18again like this Clean Slate do you guys
28:20see that being the case where with
28:22enough time like that is the reality
28:24where like most things that we see
28:27online are not quote unquote real and
28:30then also how does that change our
28:31relationship with the things
28:33that we see online I mean I think we
28:35could argue about real in reality you
28:38know it might be like yeah I looked at
28:41my Instagram feed and it's a lot of like
28:43scripted pranks or things that are you
28:46know LED make people believe that are
28:48real it's you know people that have been
28:50highly altered situation in context that
28:52are presented is really sitting on a
28:53private jet when you don't actually own
28:55that okay uh and so I think I think the
28:58sliding scale of reality will will
29:00probably continue to move in the
29:02direction it's been heading in but
29:03beyond that you know the thing that I'm
29:05most excited about is is this kind of
29:08race to the bottom and a lot of media is
29:11going to like that bottom is going to
29:12hit far quicker because of AI it's going
29:14to be really easy to be good at things
29:16yeah good at making music good at making
29:18visual art good at you know creating
29:21content it's going to be really hard to
29:23be excellent and because you know models
29:25effectively are are backwards looking
29:26data kind of gets more data I think
29:29you're gonna have some like nasty
29:30feedback loops not entirely just similar
29:32from like what happened to Netflix where
29:34they kind of woke up and one day
29:35everyone realized that every show was a
29:37chef's table for a different industry
29:39and they're like wait I like this format
29:41and clearly the algorithm said it works
29:43but I don't feel I don't feel like I've
29:46gained any nutrients from this I've just
29:48kind of been satiated and I'm looking
29:50for nutrients and so I think we're gonna
29:52have rapid Ascent or things feel better
29:56on the server people are looking for
29:57substance and that's when I think
29:58they're really supposed to rise to the
30:00top they can augment this technology
30:03with unique skill sets do you think that
30:05maybe sometimes people
30:07understand or misalign substance with
30:10what we just talked about like
30:13real people over time will be like okay
30:16my response to this Everything feels
30:18fake I want again like things that are
30:22truly in like meat space and that's what
30:25they look for but to your point just
30:27because it's in meat space doesn't mean
30:29it's like real and has substance right
30:31and so it can be just as manufactured
30:34and less creative than actually
30:36something that is technically virtual
30:39but has this like Dimension to it has
30:43um this creativity to it and so I just
30:44wanted to double click on that that like
30:46I guess relationship yeah it's a
30:49question that's having been imposed for
30:51a very long time I think you know even
30:52since the emergence of like Contemporary
30:54Art right yeah you have this constant
30:56dialogue where it's like Mom and Dad
30:57walk into the museum and they're like
30:59what are these scribbles a
31:00three-year-old could do that you know
31:02yeah and then they walk in front of this
31:04like Photo real landscaping and they're
31:06like now that that's something I would
31:08pay for because they associate the
31:09ability to kind of like take an image
31:11from you know someone's eye and
31:13translate it onto a page with like craft
31:15and skill and I think people are
31:17constantly doing the same right there
31:19aren't really good ways of understanding
31:21what is good and what is bad it's so
31:23subjective that people are looking for
31:25concrete measures of what is good and
31:27what is bad and authenticity is one
31:29that's been tossed around quite a bit
31:30and I think people look for things that
31:33resonate as authentic and often
31:35associate them with like they're playing
31:37an instrument they have a craft or
31:38they're doing and I think the reality is
31:40some of the most authentic things in the
31:42world of me are like K-pop where it's
31:44entirely scripted and fictional but it's
31:46presented in a super authentic way it's
31:48saying like hey this is going to be so
31:50entertaining we've plucked the most
31:52beautiful kids from Korean middle
31:53schools give them the best
31:54choreographers and the best songs and
31:56I've taught them to speak like Justin
31:57Timberlake like you're gonna love it and
31:59the the there's no deception there and I
32:02think that like young people resonate
32:04with that I think it's harder for adults
32:05who've been who've been kind of primed
32:07on these ways of understanding
32:09Contemporary Art and and I think ads the
32:12technology of all in ways of kind of
32:15changing those rules evolved they feel
32:17very uncomfortable and fall back on the
32:19kind of like Frameworks they understand
32:20yeah and actually these virtual
32:22influencers I think are
32:25um and parts of Asia which is
32:26interesting it's it's maybe a cultural
32:28thing maybe it's an age thing
32:30um so yeah it's fascinating to I like
32:32that you use the word deception because
32:34you're all being deceived in ways and in
32:36terms of what's being put in front of us
32:37but like we we do fall back on these
32:40easy mechanics of like is it real or is
32:43it not yeah 100 I think we talked about
32:45this the other day as a threat of like
32:46nobody's gonna like see a movie of
32:48Mickey Mouse for the early days and be
32:49like oh this isn't real how dare you
32:51guys try to represent this as real right
32:53it's too clear yeah and when those lines
32:55starts get blurred at least for those of
32:57us who like you're used to something
32:59different we have a lot of hangouts or
33:01reactions to things or like
33:02misunderstandings of what they are and
33:04to me it all comes back to storytelling
33:07it comes back to me thinking that
33:08storytelling is one of the most
33:10important things that we have as humans
33:11and the way we connect with others and
33:13the way that we evolve
33:15um emotionally and all these other
33:16things I think it's just one of the most
33:17unique things about us as animals that
33:19differentiates from anything else right
33:20and I think that enhancing our ability
33:22to tell those stories especially with
33:24the world that I see coming right this
33:26more virtual world this more inclusive
33:28this three-dimensional spatial Computing
33:30metaverse whatever you call it I view
33:31having digital humans be able to be able
33:34to tell those stories as an essential
33:35piece of that right and I want to help
33:37make that like look a certain way and
33:38feel a certain way and allow people to
33:40tell stories in this new way so when you
33:42when you think of it that way all this
33:43other stuff feels like noise right well
33:45yeah I'm actually curious from both of
33:46you over the numerous years you've been
33:49doing this what pushback did you see
33:51early on and also have you seen any of
33:54that pushback change like these ideas
33:56around ethics what's real what's not
33:58should you be doing this I mean yeah so
34:00many that was part of like the premise
34:02though is that like we were going to be
34:03first to the door and catch all the
34:04arrows like we were gonna like make all
34:08the mistakes quite publicly but I think
34:09the really lovely part about that is
34:10that we get to kind of like set the tone
34:12for how these things are understood
34:14going forward like it was pretty clear
34:15that people were gonna like Leverage
34:16generative media you know virtual
34:18influencer virtual characters to you
34:21know shape our reality it's just like
34:24it's too tempting not to and so how do
34:27we go in and kind of like set some
34:28boundaries and some some ways of
34:31Behaving such that people following our
34:32path and kind of make things that are
34:33maybe more noble and righteous and other
34:35things that could have been done
34:36um that said some really obvious things
34:38I mean like I think people were really
34:41concerned about virtual characters and
34:44people having accounts right like it
34:47seems quite silly now where they're like
34:48wait a minute how can this like fake
34:50person out of the verified account
34:52and at some point you had to kind of
34:54extend that into like wait a minute like
34:55what is Coca-Cola if not a fiction and
34:59why do they have a blue check mark they
35:01were interesting things in like startup
35:02land like what was like startup L
35:03Jackson or like all these Twitter
35:05accounts that were like parodies and so
35:07a lot of those things feel quite passe
35:09now they're interesting conversations
35:11that I think are happening around AI
35:14nfts that feel very familiar to what we
35:17did where it's like this is new and
35:19scary and I don't like it so I'm gonna
35:21be upset about it even though I'm like
35:23uninformed about it and so I think
35:25that's going to be participant forever
35:26as Overton window shifts but a lot of
35:29things that we did feel quite passe
35:31right now where it was like a blue check
35:33mark make sure and so you're like yeah
35:34that's fine that's totally okay
35:37what are some of those examples
35:40days where you see that parallel where
35:43strange this idea of a blue check mark
35:45what do you think you know in five to
35:46ten years we'll look back on some of the
35:49today I think the idea that like digital
35:52Goods have value right is that I can
35:54totally understand why it seems silly
35:55the right click saying that this thing
35:56makes a ton of sense until you think
35:58about okay if I have a wallet and that's
36:01following me wherever I go on the
36:02internet and effectively becomes the way
36:04I play status games you know it may be
36:07really important for me to have a
36:08digital asset that shows that I was
36:09there or I'm a part of this thing
36:11because it leads to IRL love or jobs or
36:14wealth or whatever it is and so I think
36:16it's probably going to be quite silly
36:17that we thought for a moment that like
36:19digital Goods wouldn't have value much
36:21the same way I'm sure it was really
36:22silly to see like luxury watches sold
36:26you're like what do you mean I think
36:27it's the same thing my watch does why
36:28would you ever pay a markup for it it's
36:30like well because I get a handshake of
36:33the country club that I wouldn't get
36:34otherwise you know beyond that I think
36:36with the AI stuff people try to dunk on
36:39like the fingers thing or the eyes or
36:42like the hair looking wonky and and I
36:44don't think they recognize how quickly
36:46those things will get resolved much the
36:48same way for us early on you know they'd
36:51be like wait a minute this Shadow is not
36:54oftentimes it was like and totally real
36:56like and we've matched it entirely but
36:59also one thing we had to do early on was
37:02add additional Shadow to things or
37:05things like do things make people
37:07believe what they were seeing was real
37:09because the reality of the image wasn't
37:10real enough as bizarre as that sounds
37:13you had to kind of like embellish people
37:16like once you look at an image and
37:18you're trying to find what's fake like
37:20you think everything's fake right and
37:22how many times the things that people
37:23called out were actually a photograph
37:24photographic element like they were real
37:26and people were convinced like oh this
37:28is the thing and the Michaela the things
37:30that received to they were totally fine
37:31with and like I would say it was like 50
37:3250 like half the time like the things
37:34they complained about were an actual
37:36element that was from a photograph have
37:38you guys started doing that like
37:39whenever I see a picture on Twitter
37:41someone will literally be just like
37:42taking a picture of their lunch or their
37:44house and I'm like I'm like trying to
37:46figure out if it's generated by AI I'm
37:48like this isn't real and it's totally a
37:50real picture yeah I mean I've been doing
37:51that for years as you know like I've
37:53been in VFX right so CG movies and like
37:55people always ask me and I can always
37:56tell because the first thing you're
37:57actually doing is is there any reason
37:59for them to use CDI right so like the
38:01first test that I could do that nobody
38:02else can do is like of course that's not
38:03CGI that would cost like eight million
38:05extra dollars and there's no reason to
38:06do it so there's no chance that it's CGI
38:08right but then there's a lot of other
38:09little tricks like once you get really
38:10familiar with the technology that you
38:12can see that maybe isn't so one of the
38:14things that's actually hard for me is to
38:15try to step out of that and understand
38:17like what is the regular person seeing
38:19here like what are the what is scaring
38:20them because it looks this way that's
38:22kind of hard to step in and out of I
38:23think the same thing for AI now I think
38:25artists especially have a really strong
38:27missile reaction to it art community 3D
38:29art community that's really anti-ai
38:30because they're they have this fearful
38:33reaction that that's happened every time
38:34any new technologies ever happened that
38:36doesn't mean that I'm like dismissing
38:38any of their concerns it's this fearful
38:40reaction that my job's gonna be taken
38:42away or this other thing that I don't
38:43like is going to happen Etc so I think
38:45we're seeing that very strongly with AI
38:47right now yeah and and are you basically
38:49saying that you think in years this will
38:52not be the case like what do you think
38:54happens to let's just use those like 3D
38:56animators for example like what do you
38:58think either changes in their
39:00perspective or changes about the world
39:01well I think right now what I'm thinking
39:03is that look the idea that you're gonna
39:05like reject this and then it's just
39:07gonna stop in the stress is just the
39:09most wishful thinking thing I've ever I
39:12can ever imagine right so the thing to
39:13do is try to like identify the parts of
39:15it that you don't agree with and try to
39:17figure out how can we make that better
39:18right so if it's rights to artists
39:20images that they created the artwork and
39:21they should get fractional at
39:22compensation or you should be able to
39:24like out of being having your District
39:25these are all very bad things so again
39:27I'm not like you know dismissing any of
39:29them it's just that there's a lot of
39:31people who are going to react so
39:33negatively it's like no no to AI like
39:34cancel all this stuff and it's like
39:36that's not gonna happen even if that was
39:38the right move if you if you were right
39:40about that it's not a realistic option
39:42so what's the you know what's the
39:44positive thing we can do here to try to
39:47well on that note of positivity I mean
39:49the technology is advancing in many
39:51different ways and so I'd love to hear
39:52both of your perspectives on how not
39:54just AI but technology advancing as a
39:57whole may actually change our ability to
39:59create these virtual influencers for
40:02might these influencers actually be able
40:04to engage with their audiences more like
40:06use AI to actually like be the one
40:08responding you like train an AI model
40:11based on this character and they
40:13actually become like not a sentient
40:15being but someone that's actually able
40:16to engage that's one example you could
40:19also Imagine like a decentralized
40:21influencer where basically like not only
40:23is there worth distributed amongst a
40:25bunch of people but actually like what
40:27they do their narrative might be
40:29influenced by the people who have some
40:32sort of ownership over them Trevor why
40:33don't we start with you and just like
40:34any any ideas on how technology actually
40:37advances empowers our ability to create
40:40these these characters I mean I could do
40:43this for years but you just rip but I
40:45mean obviously the decentralized one is
40:48something that where we're you know very
40:49excited about and you know we're trying
40:50to vote Dapper you know one thing I
40:52think about a lot is like why culture is
40:55not viewed as intellectual property and
40:57you know you could almost see
40:59influencers as kind of like these like
41:02rent seeking middlemen that have like
41:04the Aesthetics that allow them to like
41:05do a dance that was popularized by some
41:08six-year-old girl in the hood and
41:10capture a lot of the value that should
41:12have flowed back to that person right so
41:14I think a really challenging part with
41:16like culture and why it's not
41:17intellectual property and why it's often
41:19you know caught in this crosstairs as
41:21being either like cultural appropriation
41:22or like unlicensable attribution is
41:25really hard and like remitting payments
41:27to the people that have that you've
41:29identified as being a part of a culture
41:31or being owed for that you know using
41:35um and I think you know digital payments
41:38like you know blockchains right and I
41:39think that like tools that allow you to
41:42like quickly identify someone and and
41:44where they exist culturally to me the
41:46idea that like you know as a black
41:48person you could identify a community
41:49and say like look all this ratchet
41:51happening here has created value that we
41:54can like repatriate to your community I
41:56think that's really compelling you know
41:57for generations of people that watch
41:58Elvis walk off the shade or the Rolling
42:01Stones or whatever else like it's sort
42:03of in The Tick Tock you know Dances and
42:04emotes like I would love to see like
42:06technology enable stuff like that and so
42:08there's all kinds of stuff like a brief
42:10about but like things like that to me
42:11are kind of exciting and maybe on the
42:14totally Isaac what about you
42:17yeah I mean I think to me the the
42:19there's three elements that I'm really
42:21excited about one is and these are all
42:23amounts that are like of the metaverse
42:25to me what the metaverse really is and
42:27it's persistence right so a character a
42:29digital character which means it's a
42:31brand it's a it's a it's a living story
42:33it's persistent it doesn't exist in one
42:35single world anymore right so you don't
42:37have Drake From Last of Us existing just
42:39in a video game that people interact
42:40with them that one situation and then
42:42that's it like it starts to be able to
42:44go in any other medium instantly right
42:46so this persistence that that character
42:48actually has a history story of life and
42:50that that's there is synchronous meaning
42:52you can actually interact with it so
42:53that's kind of something you just
42:54mentioned there where maybe you can go
42:56and talk to Nathan Drake that's the
42:57simple thing but I think there's a lot
42:58more interesting implementations of that
42:59as we move forward and find these
43:01interoperable and that means like these
43:02like kind of like what I said
43:04persistence these These Walls that
43:05create barriers between different
43:07mediums and different things they kind
43:08of go away like technology is an enabler
43:10and like a democratizing force and I
43:12think what it's going to allow is for
43:13really compelling characters and Brands
43:15and stories to be able to be told and
43:18really unique in in new ways that in
43:20five years we're gonna look back today
43:22and be like it seems obvious but it
43:24doesn't feel obvious to a lot of people
43:25right now yeah something that's coming
43:27to mind is you mentioned synchronicity
43:30the reason that celebrities can't
43:32interface with every one of their fans
43:34today is because like they are in Meet
43:36space like they only have so much time
43:38they need to sleep they can only engage
43:40with so many of their fans but actually
43:42technology can change that right and
43:44that could be for the human celebrity
43:46who now just like has leverage through
43:48technology but it also especially can be
43:51used for these virtual influencers where
43:52truly like they can have a relationship
43:54with their fans like the idea of being
43:56parasocial may maybe doesn't exist at
43:59some point because actually you're not
44:01just listening to people talk you can
44:02actually like after a podcast go have
44:05this virtual conversation with the
44:06podcast host I don't know if I'm like
44:08extrapolating too far but that just like
44:10dawned on me where I'm like oh actually
44:11the limitation existed before because we
44:14didn't have technology the first person
44:16I heard say like trying to like make
44:17this celebrity scalable all this like
44:19from Trevor originally I think we ran
44:21into problems with that with Michaela
44:23just because we were so early right like
44:24the expensive cost of creating animated
44:26content at this time was like that
44:28wasn't really scalable but I think we're
44:30getting to a point pretty quickly where
44:31it is sorry go ahead Jeff no no it's
44:33interesting I think as as we kind of
44:34thought about like that scalability and
44:36kind of what makes that experience
44:39exciting you know like it is creating
44:41some type of scarcity important for
44:43making that thing valuable is like to be
44:46defined right I think the variable
44:47rewards component of of social that kind
44:50of like brain hack the slot machine
44:51brain hack is what makes a lot of social
44:54experiences sticky and so the idea that
44:56you could just you know message Emma
44:59Chamberlain and she responds right away
45:00or pops up on your screen might devalue
45:03yeah and what it means to you and this
45:06is all stuff that people don't have to
45:07work through and so it's going to be
45:08really interesting maybe an interesting
45:10question that I didn't have planned but
45:12since we went down this rabbit hole do
45:14you guys think that at some point we
45:17will have a virtual influencer that a
45:20religion is built around
45:23I mean I never thought about it but now
45:26that you mentioned it I'm like is it
45:27possible that with enough time goes by
45:29that it's not going to happen I don't
45:30know like it seems like at some point
45:33I I will say like problematic
45:37part of the Pod potentially but our
45:39first employee abroad was aluminum
45:41Savannah pecanian I remember we were
45:42talking and she was like you keep saying
45:44scalable celebrity but like what does
45:46that mean like what does that look like
45:49Christ like that's what it looks like to
45:52be you know like these narratives that
45:54have like you know shaped our reality
46:00has been able to touch people all over
46:01the world and and shape the way they
46:03behave some would argue that there are
46:05you know people in our current lives
46:07Kardashians whomever that have you know
46:11like demigod power and I I had to
46:14imagine that at some point you'll have
46:16someone something that that matches
46:20some of those traditionals I mean it's
46:22kind of mind-bending no I mean you think
46:25about we talked about like the sliding
46:27spectrums it's like human to Virtual or
46:31computer generated but then it's also
46:32like yeah what what is the sliding scale
46:34between listening to everything someone
46:37says to religion but Trevor Isaac thank
46:41you so much for going through all this
46:43with us for being early movers in this
46:46space and setting the tone setting
46:48boundaries experimenting thanks for
46:50spending this time with me thank you
46:53thanks for listening to the a16z podcast
46:55if you like this episode don't forget to
46:58subscribe here on YouTube to get our
46:59exclusive video content we'll see you
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