00:00they will take something you know
00:02Anonymous arvar 42 said as like gospel
00:06and base their entire life philosophy
00:09around it yes yes don't do that don't do
00:15that all right welcome to dton plus
00:18Michael and today we're going to talk
00:20about how fast is too fast for moving a
00:24startup um I'll start with the story I
00:27was talking to a YC company could have
00:29been this batch could have been a
00:30previous batch yeah let's anonymize it
00:32we don't want to probably every batch to
00:33be honest common story and a summary of
00:37what they told me was and we got into YC
00:40with this idea we called 25 companies
00:43mostly startups of course over the last
00:45two weeks none of them wanted to buy our
00:47product which doesn't exist it's just an
00:50idea and so we decided to
00:54Pivot and so can you help us and people
00:58may not know why we think that's funny
01:00okay please this is funny to us because
01:03that was very low effort yes trying to
01:06contact 25 people me like well I guess I
01:09guess we're done I guess no one wants it
01:11is so low effort yes as to be funny to
01:14us so carry on with the story what was
01:18interesting to me about this was that
01:23Founders had a vision in their head and
01:28the second that the path in the startup
01:30didn't line up with this Vision in their
01:31head which was that well I think this
01:33idea sounds good well I see fun of this
01:35idea so therefore everyone IAL to must
01:38think this idea is good they got a
01:40little freaked out but then the second
01:42thing that I love is that like the
01:45instinct to talk to Startup Founders it
01:47was like I want to vet this with startup
01:50people often because I feel like it's
01:52easier to sell them even though this
01:54isn't a problem that startups have the
01:57overarching thing was like this was not
01:59even rigorous thinking like like where
02:01these people used to work if someone
02:03they hired said this to them they would
02:06like laugh at them yet they're doing it
02:09themselves yeah why do they do this the
02:12version of this that I see a lot is
02:14people the way they start with their
02:16company is to cold email a bunch of
02:19people on LinkedIn they're like okay
02:21we're doing our startup we're going
02:22full-time um well so cool well what are
02:25you doing well we we we LinkedIn in in
02:28mailed we spammed a thousand people yes
02:32and we only got three responses so I
02:34guess no one wants this yes and that
02:37doesn't work friends like that's not
02:40sufficient no um this is very
02:43superficial validation yeah that people
02:46are doing right like and so I think
02:49people do this because no one told them
02:50differently um here actually here's
02:52another one for you on this topic yeah I
02:54think that a lot of people are trained
02:55as PMs and they're trained to do user
02:57research yes and being trained to do
03:00user research I remember taking a user
03:02research course in college is you're
03:04you're trained to sort of like interview
03:06people rather than sell products to them
03:09yep and if you can't even interview
03:12people you're not really sure what to do
03:15and so I think my argument is if you've
03:16been trained to be a PM or trained to do
03:18user interview research you struggle
03:21with getting first customers because the
03:22skills that you learned to do this
03:24research don't don't apply I also think
03:27that if you come from a big company
03:30either in product or engineering more
03:33not you've never solved your own problem
03:36like you're working on other people's
03:38problems and so I think that your
03:41instinct when you start a company is
03:42like almost a Consulting Instinct I need
03:44to go around I had to talk to a lot of
03:46people I figure out what their problem
03:48is and I have to solve it which I think
03:50is um tricky because it resembles what
03:54you did in big Co but it probably
03:56doesn't represent what the founder of
03:57your bigco did start their big right
04:01it's like who should you copy like
04:03yourself employee 10,000 or what about
04:06employee one what did that person do so
04:10you know you talk a little bit about
04:11this concept of when people pivot
04:14quickly they they they're not building
04:16the muscle of building conviction like
04:19what talk to us about that you know we
04:20have a few different metaphors I'll mix
04:22them so one of the metaphors is what
04:24constitutes a high quality rep yes what
04:27constitutes completing full pivot cycle
04:31yes and to learn anything you need to
04:35it all the way yes so again like being
04:38like we built a product we spammed 10
04:41people on LinkedIn none of them replied
04:43let's throw it all in the trash I am
04:45arguing that is not a high quality rep
04:48no you didn't do anything you didn't
04:49really do anything you didn't really
04:50learn anything it was sort of just like
04:52a waste of everyone's time you did you
04:55did spend time so that's you're right
04:57okay you wasted time and so congrat the
05:00the metaphor I sometimes like to tell
05:01people when they're pivoting is the most
05:03important customer is
05:05yourself and the founder psychology
05:08thing you want to do is build conviction
05:10in your own mind that this thing is
05:11worth working on yes and so it's not to
05:14make investors happy or your YC partner
05:17happy yes or whatever it's to convince
05:20your brain that more time spent on this
05:23idea is time well spent another way I
05:26like to think about that is to convince
05:28yourself this customer is worth helping
05:30yeah like you're going to enjoy spending
05:32time with this customer and I find a lot
05:35of Founders kind of want to skip that
05:38part yeah oh I just want to be in this
05:40industry I just want to I just want them
05:43to buy my thing I don't want I don't
05:45like like don't talk to me I don't
05:46really care about just buy my thing make
05:48my number go up and I want to raise my
05:50series a it's like and and so in terms
05:53of like founder personality traits or
05:54things you can develop I think a lot of
05:57times how good of a programmer you are
06:00is one thing how good you are at sales
06:01how good you are at fundraising all
06:03these things are like you know important
06:04yes but someone that has low conviction
06:07and struggles to ever build conviction
06:09on anything even if they're great at all
06:11those other factors not going to make it
06:14isn't that crazy versus there's people
06:16that are worse at some of those other
06:17things imagine this this was like a
06:18baseball card of their skills not the
06:20best programmer not the best salesperson
06:22not the best fundraiser but very high
06:24conviction and able to focus their
06:26energy One Direction in a superhuman way
06:29those people to have succeed case in
06:31point Justin Khan my
06:33co-founder I I totally agree and what's
06:36funny is like every good startup team
06:38has at least one of those people you
06:40need one yes yes you need that and and
06:44the too cool for school teams where it's
06:46like oh no like I can't I can't be to
06:49into anything right like my bar is super
06:53high it's like sorry you'll just you'll
06:55pivot to you run out of speed right and
06:57and so like let's talk about exactly
06:59what conviction means I think it doesn't
07:02mean believing in things religiously
07:06exactly it's more of not letting
07:08yourself get blown off course so this
07:10happens to us a lot we've seen this at
07:12YC a Founder is working on an idea that
07:14it's going well they go to fundraise the
07:17fundrais is hard what happens if you're
07:20not high conviction y got to Pivot got
07:22they give up so if just meeting with
07:24investors causes you to give up causes
07:26you to give up on your idea by
07:27definition I'm arguing you don't have
07:29high conviction yes because you're blown
07:31off course if every time you talk to a
07:34new customer you decide to change your
07:37product that is low conviction you do
07:39not have conviction let's go back to the
07:41investor one the thing that I hate about
07:42that investor one is that if you look at
07:44the history of really big companies so
07:47many of them most investors thought that
07:50the idea was horrible yes so it's like
07:52empirically a lot of investors thinking
07:54your idea is horrible is not necessarily
08:00correct yeah it's not necessarily a good
08:01sign either by the way we're not arguing
08:03hey if it's bad then it must be good
08:05we're not seeing that it it's more of a
08:07neutral like it's it's it's it's not a
08:09key indicator either way I might arue
08:11but when you take it as a key when it's
08:13the only key indicator yeah oh it's so
08:16it's almost like when you spend all your
08:17time trying to triangulate what other
08:19people say is good and that's how you
08:22decide what startup idea to work on yeah
08:24you're going to have a bad time so I
08:27think that um I've been trying to unpack
08:29hack why do people do this and and more
08:31specifically like why do people kind of
08:33think logically and rationally in their
08:36job and then come to their startup and
08:39just their quality of thinking decreases
08:43by 90% And you know you have I talked
08:45about this before you know a big thing
08:47is fear and in the context of the YC
08:50batch I noticed a big thing specifically
08:52related to fear is I literally like fake
08:56information you know I had a company
08:57told me like oh man well we started
08:59looking at this problem and realized it
09:01was going to take a little while to
09:02build and you know we looked at our
09:04batch and 75% of the companies already
09:06have launched products that are growing
09:08and we were like we can't and I'm like
09:10wait wait wait wait pause I was like he
09:13said it with such conviction for a
09:15second I was like wow that's a good job
09:18we're killing 75% already launched the
09:21badge hasn't started yet and then I was
09:23like wait like why do you like why do
09:26you think that and they were like I just
09:29assumed I was like just making up
09:32yeah and I was like you can look well
09:35and this is what's funny for the
09:36founders that read a lot of Twitter or
09:39Reddit or blogs is they will take
09:42something you know Anonymous arvar 42
09:45said as like gospel and base their
09:48entire life philosophy around
09:51it yes don't do that don't do that
09:54especially when you can look up the real
09:56answer like you can tell which company
09:59like when you're in the y b you can tell
10:01which companies are launched which ones
10:02aren the other one was well an Alum told
10:06me I won't be able to raise without you
10:09know $10,000 in Mr and it was
10:11interesting because I had to sit down
10:12with this founder and say really simply
10:15some companies enter the batch with a
10:16post-launch product with users some
10:19companies will enter the batch with an
10:21idea if you were a rational investor
10:25would you judge those two different
10:27companies with the same exact rubric
10:31they of course not and I was like okay
10:33and if an investor did would you not
10:35call them kind of dumb and maybe
10:37wouldn't want to work with them like
10:38yeah so then why are you doing that of
10:41course the expectations are different
10:43from something that comes into a batch
10:44with just an idea but I think that these
10:48kind of false expectations yeah create
10:52the fear and then the fear creates the
10:54bad thinking and then it's like once
10:56you're in bad thinking you're you're
10:59kind of fine I love that technique uh
11:02that you just mentioned I like to do
11:03this one sometimes too when someone is
11:05trying to get a first customer yeah
11:06which is like okay in your past
11:08job your team evaluated different
11:11software to buy right yes yes and i' be
11:14like so you have actually been on the
11:16other side of the customer conversations
11:17a lot yeah so which of the sales tactics
11:20that you're trying would have worked on
11:21you like how often do you respond to
11:25LinkedIn yeah oh never okay with name
11:29kind of poorly replaced in the template
11:31is that like and suddenly their brain
11:35the gears in their brain re-engage with
11:36like oh we evaluated things all the time
11:38and we would do this and I had the like
11:40like and i' be like so basically you're
11:42actually an expert at understanding your
11:44customer because you bought a lot of
11:46software on the other side of the table
11:47yes what if you just tried to come up
11:50with with tactics that would have worked
11:51on you and would have made you buy your
11:53product and they'll like stop and be
11:55like I've never thought of that before
11:57yeah and so that's actually actually a
11:59really great technique is
12:01to remember back when you've been on the
12:03buy side for stff yes and think about
12:07what have appealed to what would have
12:08appealed to you or got you over the line
12:10and then that screens out a lot of this
12:12junk because the low effort pivots if
12:15you run the thought experiment they'd be
12:16like oh yeah I would never buy this I
12:18think what's so funny is like when the
12:23realization oh I actually am an expert
12:25in this like oh I can actually lean on
12:26my expertise the thing I often say next
12:28is like and that's why we funded you
12:31like yeah like it's like almost like
12:32they didn't realize that we funded them
12:36because they knew something about the
12:37topic they were pitching and then when
12:39they want to Pivot really clack we're
12:40like wow now you're moving into an area
12:42you know nothing about and we have to
12:43like hey remember like remember you know
12:46you knowu here like others will respect
12:50that too like your customers so no I
12:53think this is um it's so tricky cuz fear
12:56really just everything
12:59but I do think this is one of the
13:00reasons why um I like the new YC
13:03standard deal because I think that
13:05before Founders would be like well if I
13:08don't reason demid I'm and now I
13:11can just say to them it's like
13:13look imagine no raise in Dem you have
13:16half a million dollars you're fine like
13:19there is no gun the only gun to your
13:21head is the one you're lifting because
13:23you keeping over and over again and you
13:26never build conviction like when you're
13:27low conviction yeah money ain't going to
13:29money's not your problem so sometimes
13:31it's like hey Founders just put the gun
13:33down all right so we often encounter
13:35these companies and we've talked about
13:36this before companies that get into
13:38pivot itis right and got a bad case bad
13:41case of pivot itis right and I think
13:43what's interesting is that like a
13:45company that will build something learn
13:48over a period of time and then pivot
13:50will often pivot from a place of
13:53knowledge and like actually continue to
13:55make forward progress but we also see uh
13:58uh a different version H how would you
14:01describe that version yeah have you
14:03heard the term random walk people like
14:05so Random walk is where you use like a
14:08random number generator to decide which
14:09direction you go and basically when you
14:11random walk you actually never get
14:13anywhere like imagine a starting point
14:15and then you walk one direction and you
14:17roll the dice and you choose a different
14:18direction you do that over and over
14:20again yep you never get anywhere that's
14:22kind of like emailing 25 startups and
14:25asking them if they like your idea a
14:27little bit it's a little random right
14:28doing that again and then doing that
14:29again and doing that yeah and and what
14:31happens is imagine you're like you know
14:33a rowboat in the middle of the ocean
14:35trying to get back to land if you just
14:37keep changing direction every every once
14:39in a while you're never going to get
14:41you're going to be lost at sea and so
14:43you kind of have to get on a vector that
14:46even if you have to change a little bit
14:48yeah there's some forward progress
14:50you're making in some specific Direction
14:52and I think that what we see that's so
14:54unfortunate is that when you do that
14:57random walk enough you just run out of
14:59energy Y and you know I always see it
15:03like somewhere in like one and a half to
15:04two years if you don't feel like you've
15:07learned anything and you've spent two
15:09years kind of doing the
15:12thing one your experience isn't going to
15:14be good no two you won't feel like use
15:16the time well but three you're just
15:18going to be tired and for no good reason
15:20you can be tired for no good reason and
15:23well you've never sunk your teeth in
15:24anything so it's like you're you feel
15:26like you've been running a race
15:30but that if it's like so what have you
15:31learned they're like
15:33well learn what not to do yeah like it's
15:36harder it's kind of harder to articulate
15:38why that was a good use of your time yes
15:40no and I think that what's sad is that
15:44oftentimes those people have a very bad
15:46memory of startups right yeah and um I
15:50wish they didn't like the folks who
15:52learned and didn't succeed are often
15:55motivated to go out and do it again or
15:58go work in a company in that space like
16:00this is an additive experience in their
16:02life even if their shut up didn't work
16:04the ones who do the random
16:06walk like they realize man this probably
16:08wasn't a good use of my time so anyways
16:12I think that the last point I always
16:14like to bring up here is another version
16:16of this kind of random walk or email 25
16:20people then pivot is like launch a
16:23product that will help no one yep and
16:26then pivot and and in the Founder's mind
16:30they'll say well I launched an MVP and
16:32nobody wanted it and you know we talked
16:34about this earlier it's like is it an
16:36MVP MVP is one of those terms where we
16:41people say it so much it's assumed that
16:43there's an agreed upon definition yeah
16:45but when you ask for details I am not
16:47convinced there's an agreed upon
16:48definition of MVP so what's your
16:49definition of MVP well you know I I
16:52think that I used to not assume I had to
16:59but now that I think about it if you
17:02can't get anyone to use your MVP it's
17:06probably not an MVP well it's not the V
17:08we're missing the V which is viable yeah
17:10like basically if it doesn't work for
17:12anyone yeah how it is hard to argue that
17:15is viable no and like shouldn't an MV it
17:19seems like the cool thing about an MVP
17:21is you can do things that don't scale
17:22and cheat like you can make it you can
17:24kind of will it to work for one person
17:26right so the fact that it doesn't work
17:28for one person usually means that like
17:31you weren't even trying to make it work
17:33for them like you were trying to do
17:35something else this is a this is
17:36something that comes up a lot when I'm
17:37reading applications or in interviews
17:39for specifically developer tools you
17:40ready yeah it'll be like oh cool so I
17:42built this tool and it helps your code
17:45and you're way more efficient and it's
17:46better and it's you know we're building
17:48our MVP and like we're getting we're
17:49we're emailing people on LinkedIn now
17:51yeah what is the question I asked
17:53Michael do do you use it yourself yes I
17:55will say great so tell me about your
17:58usage of it yeah and they'll be
18:01like they'll be like okay so let me get
18:03this straight this is helping
18:05programmers and you're out selling it
18:07you're trying to get stone cold
18:08strangers to use it but it's not good
18:11enough for you to use yet right and then
18:13is that what you're were saying usually
18:14there like well it doesn't have like
18:16they can list the thing well it doesn't
18:17have this this and I mean like I would
18:19never use it and so the argument the
18:21earnest point is you should at least be
18:23able to use your own tool yes and be
18:27proud to use it or feel like it's
18:28providing some value the V and the it's
18:31viable for you yes and if you can't even
18:35get your you can't bring yourself to use
18:37your own product it's a little weird to
18:39be trying to sell it to people more than
18:40a little more than a little weird and so
18:43that should be the bar for a lot of
18:44folks is that they are willing to use
18:46their own product yes right that's a
18:48good bar for especially I mean if it's
18:51solving your own problem then like at a
18:53minimum yeah that doesn't apply there's
18:54some that doesn't apply in some cases
18:56but for a lot of things at a minimum you
18:58should should be able to use it so yes
18:59so once we started looking at it this
19:01way I started realizing like how many
19:04companies never build an MVP cuz that
19:07that's like it's typically seen as kind
19:08of like the first real baby step right
19:12and how many folks never get there they
19:15never made one customer happy and
19:18sometimes when I talk to Founders who
19:19have these big high fluen plans like I
19:21bring it back to like can we just one
19:25one you know the path to 10 million
19:28happy users yeah let's talk about that
19:30later for today how about one one and
19:33you know you can't do that like you can
19:36can everyone can do that yeah so um
19:42maybe the long story short here is that
19:44one it's going to take maybe longer than
19:47think so don't have expectations that
19:49screw you up two fear makes you think
19:53real bad like don't let fear turn a
19:57really smart person into a not very
20:00smart person three man it helps to solve
20:03your own problem and then to be your
20:05first customer that's a good bar at
20:07least you could say you did that you
20:08know if you're doing a random vog maybe
20:11with um and then four
20:14like understand that like you're got to
20:17do you called it a good rep make the
20:20analogy because in lifting like make the
20:22analogy yeah I think it would just be um
20:25in any kind of exercise or movement if
20:27you want to build strength
20:28you want to like have good form yeah and
20:31you won't get better if your form is bad
20:34or you might even injure yourself
20:35actually right like if you want to learn
20:37I don't know how to swing a golf club
20:39yep and your form is bad a you probably
20:42won't learn and B you might injure
20:45yourself yeah and you're not going to
20:48have fun you're definitely not going to
20:49have fun so you kind of want to have
20:51good form yeah when you're trying to do
20:53something that's hard run a good rep I
20:55like it all right man great chat cool
![How To Succeed As A NEW & YOUNG Realtor [Deals Every Month + Luxury Listings]](/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FrtrRghgTayc%2Fhqdefault.jpg&w=3840&q=75)
