00:00following on from Paul's talk about some
00:05of the ways to think about becoming or
00:08what it takes to become or whether you
00:10might believe you might become a hundred
00:11billion dollar business I am going to
00:16have a conversation with Mathilde : who
00:19is in the process of building one of
00:22those hundred billion dollar businesses
00:23and she's going to be able to tell us
00:25all about that and her company called
00:27front so Mathilde what patch were you in
00:31at YC summer 14 summer 14 Wow already
00:36four years ago so tell us about your if
00:40you would your journey to being the CEO
00:43of front sure so in just a few seconds
00:48so I think I've always been wanting to
00:51start a company but the main thing is I
00:54didn't feel confident enough do you
00:55think that I would when they build a
00:58company so I was hearing all these
01:00people saying oh yeah I'll start a
01:01company and I was like I wish I could
01:03say that potatoes don't feel like I can
01:05do it so instead what I did is after I
01:08graduated I joined a startup that was
01:10super small doing a contract management
01:12software and that's when I discovered
01:14the world of software's and there is
01:17something that went well during this
01:19first experience and something that
01:20didn't do well so what went well is I
01:24became very passionate about software in
01:26general and I just felt like the fact
01:28that you could build something in a few
01:30months that could change how people work
01:31and people spend so much time at work I
01:33felt was super rewarding so that's what
01:37went well so so the you didn't find its
01:39contract management sounds painfully
01:42yes it's boring but what was cool about
01:45it was that it actually changed how
01:46right so did they're exactly and so when
01:51I was talking to people also I was in
01:52charge of launching a new product for
01:53them and so when I was talking to people
01:55using the product and they were telling
01:56me how their day-to-day was much better
01:58because they were using the product it
02:00made sense to me and it's still one
02:02thing that drives me today so that's
02:03what that's what was great what wasn't
02:05great is the culture was terrible and so
02:08I was very unhappy and I also understood
02:10how much of a responsibility
02:12you had as you know a funding team of a
02:15company to create an environment where
02:17people would be happy to to come to work
02:19so a year after I joined this company I
02:21quit this company and you can you
02:24elaborate a little bit what what what
02:26was it about the culture that that was
02:29bad so I think the main thing is there
02:32was no transparency and so then there is
02:34no trust and then there is no engagement
02:36from employees so I can tell you more
02:39about how I've built the front and I
02:42think what's unique about our culture
02:43but one of the things is how transparent
02:46we are and I don't believe that
02:47transparency is good in itself and
02:49that's why you should be transparent I
02:50believe that that's the most efficient
02:52way I've found to create engagement at
02:55scale so if you ask people at France why
02:57are you happy to come to work every day
02:59they will tell you I'm happy because I
03:01can see the impact of my work and that's
03:03what I care about and how do you make
03:05sure that people see the impact of their
03:06work you make sure that everything is
03:08transparent from where you want to go
03:10how you'll go there what are the goals
03:12that need to achieve and how their work
03:14relate to these goals it seems like
03:15there's something really fundamental
03:16there for the companies that are going
03:19to be successful Paul talked about what
03:21it felt like at Google where everyone
03:22knew where they were going and everyone
03:23was passionate everyone believed and so
03:26you had this energy in the company so I
03:28guess somehow it this is about sharing a
03:32vision with the team and having them
03:34believe in it and at every step in the
03:36way having them be able to see how that
03:38vision is being created yeah so I think
03:41there are two things that are incredibly
03:42important as early as you are so one is
03:46the vision and of course you should know
03:50where you're going and of course you
03:51don't know yet and that's totally fine
03:53like I didn't know four years ago how a
03:56big front would be and I still don't
03:58know today but I think that will just
04:00evolve along the way what you need to
04:01have is just what you deeply believe in
04:03and so what I've always believed in is
04:05friend should be a place where people
04:07come to work every day and are happy and
04:09our customers should be happier because
04:12they use front either because you know
04:14the impact of their work is higher or
04:15because it's an email products that is
04:17ten hours in the app every day but
04:19that's what drove me and so today our
04:21mission is work happier and I make sure
04:25people what it means for us and I think
04:27it should be clear to everyone in your
04:30company and you why you care so deeply
04:33about about what you're doing and it
04:35doesn't mean he doesn't need to be you
04:37know this huge idea because the truth is
04:39I didn't know what front would be but I
04:41knew that I cared so much about it and
04:42people could relate to it so that's one
04:44thing super important yet I don't think
04:47that that's the most important thing I
04:48think the most important thing is
04:50discipline and I think that discipline
04:51is actually more important than having a
04:53grand vision and my personal belief and
04:56I am sure that not a lot of people agree
04:58with me is one of the reason why we've
05:00been successful so far is because we've
05:03been incredibly disciplined in many many
05:06things so for example always have in one
05:09focus and making sure that it's clear to
05:11the entire company so in the early days
05:13we wanted to make sure that we were
05:16making something that people wanted and
05:17the way we would track that was can we
05:19generate revenue and so every single day
05:22everyone in the company would know where
05:25our revenue was and the next day where
05:27it was in the next day it's a track for
05:29at least a year and anything that we
05:32would work on was aimed at increasing
05:34that revenue and I was sending daily
05:37emails that became weekly emails there
05:39are still weekly emails telling everyone
05:41how we're doing against our core targets
05:44and I think having this discipline of
05:46focusing on a few things and making sure
05:49that in every presentation you're doing
05:50every email you send even to investors
05:53to whatever you show that will be one of
05:57the key to succeed so let's back up
06:02before we dig further into the sort of
06:07the unique culture and the success
06:11you left the the the lousy startup the
06:19lousy company with a lousy culture and
06:21somehow you ended up deciding you're
06:24going to start your own thing how did
06:25how did that transpire what what what
06:28led you to start your company to find
06:30your co-founder Aloha and and get going
06:34with front yeah so I think it was very
06:36lucky for a few reasons
06:39one is I met my co-founder so the story
06:41of my co-founder and I is not that you
06:43know we were best friends or brothers
06:44and sisters or whatever I actually met
06:46my co-founder three months before we
06:48started the company and then we spend so
06:50much time together trying to go through
06:51every hard conversations that I could
06:53think about like I don't know what if I
06:56want to fire you what if you want to
06:58fire me what if you want to sell and I
06:59don't want to sound bah bah bah and we
07:03were just aligned on most things
07:05actually everything so that's one thing
07:07that led me to start this company with
07:10him then we found angel you knew you
07:12wanted to start a company yes so I knew
07:14I wanted to start a company I quit the
07:16software company I knew I wanted to
07:18start a company in the email space
07:19because I love software's but I was
07:21using email to get work done I wasn't
07:23yeah I wasn't using contracts and so I
07:25knew that and I knew that I needed money
07:27to start a company because I had to have
07:30a loan for my school and so I couldn't
07:34start a company if I didn't find money
07:35yet so I was lucky enough to meet with
07:38an angel investor in Paris who committed
07:41to giving us when you sue franchise that
07:43sounds really risky though you had
07:44college debt right you just left your
07:47job yeah and I don't know if that's the
07:50biggest risk I took or when I moved here
07:52with all the our employees and their
07:54family and they quit their jobs and sold
07:57their house I've taken many a risk in my
08:02so so you decided to jump in headlong
08:05you had to get money you got an angel
08:07investor you found long yes and the last
08:10thing that I think is incredibly
08:11important is I found someone that became
08:16my husband later on who believed in me
08:18and I think that it's so important to
08:21find someone whether it's you know a
08:23mentors friend or whoever who can tell
08:26you that you can do it and maybe you
08:27already know that you can do it but at
08:29least for me like these four things were
08:31equally important I would have never
08:32started this company if someone was not
08:34telling me every day you can do it so
08:38you found your future husband and your
08:39co-founder different people by the way
08:43at about the same time my husband works
08:45at front although your husband this work
08:46but you you met them at the city he
08:47didn't work at front at the time and you
08:50met them about the same time I met my
08:52future husband a few years before but he
08:54was the one telling me you can do it so
08:58he was supportive of you quitting your
09:00job and jumping in headlong into the
09:02startup yes and he did the same thing at
09:04the same time right so and how did you
09:09so in Paris we met in a startup studio
09:12called the founders we and it was it was
09:18how how did the two of you decide who
09:21was going to be CEO that it was very
09:24easy so basically everything I love you
09:25hates and everything he loves I hate so
09:28he's the CTO of front
09:30he loves building the product but it
09:33isn't like talking what I am doing right
09:36now it isn't like managing as much and I
09:39think that when I reflect back on the
09:41front the thing that I've been most
09:43lucky with is my relationship with my
09:45co-founder because we have the most
09:48amazing relationship and what I mean by
09:50that is not that we're super close in a
09:53sense that we would hang out together
09:55and bow like is actually he's a friend
09:59but he is not like my best friend or my
10:00buddy but we have so much respect for
10:03one another and that's the thing that
10:05you need to optimize for it doesn't
10:06matter how well you get along you just
10:08need to be so impressed by whatever your
10:13other person or other persons are doing
10:15and you you had sort of a unique process
10:18to figure that out in the beginning you
10:20you sort of grilled each other until you
10:23were both sure that you were comparing
10:26yeah so when you began as CEO what can
10:34you talk a little bit about how you
10:35split up responsibilities and what the
10:37role of CEO was there's a lot of people
10:39here who have similar questions as to
10:41what exactly they should be doing is CEO
10:43how did you think about that from the
10:44beginning so a few things so my role as
10:48a CEO in the early days I was basically
10:52doing everything but
10:54being an engineer because I wasn't an
10:56engineer's but so I was the product
10:59manager the recruiter I was for the
11:01longest time the onion marketing person
11:03for three years I was the only sales rep
11:06I was the onion support rep I was the
11:08only customer success person and I guess
11:11my job was just to do the job of like
11:13what ultimately will become our team and
11:16that was really what my goal was
11:17everything but building yeah that was
11:20you exactly how has that changed over
11:23time we talked a bit with a lot Gil
11:25about how the role of CEO evolved as a
11:28company gets much larger but it changes
11:31a lot even as you go from two people to
11:33five people to ten people right sure so
11:35I think what super important is I wasn't
11:37expecting to hire people to figure out
11:39things that I would have not figured out
11:41so it wasn't like I'm struggling with
11:43marketing like I don't know how to
11:45generate leads so I need to hire someone
11:47better than me so the way I was thinking
11:49about it is there are a few things that
11:52I feel are scalable so for example who
11:55would have leads that would sign up to
11:57France I would call them and I would
11:58like do you understand at the front here
12:00is what from des what's your process and
12:02when when I started to think that
12:04another person could do that and could
12:06it better than me because the person
12:07would be more skilled then that's when I
12:10hired people and so at every step of the
12:13way I hired people better than me but
12:15once I had figured out what roughly
12:18their job would be in the mistake I've
12:20done in the early days was I've not
12:22figured out something and I hope is that
12:23someone will figure it out for me the
12:26truth is if with all the knowledge I
12:28have about the company I can't figure
12:30out something I think it's very rare
12:33that someone would come and figure it
12:35out so that's something that I learned
12:37in the early days so you can't count on
12:39someone else to have the answers right
12:41you don't have them yeah for sure and
12:43Steve today like even today we are 110
12:46people now and I'm not hiring people to
12:48figure out things that I've not figured
12:50out because I think it's incredibly hard
12:52I'm here to hire people that will scale
12:55what's kind of working so that's what
12:59happened so I hired people that were
13:01better than me on seeing that I had
13:03figured out and then once I had everyone
13:05I hired head of functions
13:07and then my job now is to find the head
13:11of every function and to make them work
13:13together so that's how my job is
13:14revolved so it sounds like from the very
13:18beginning though hiring was was foremost
13:20in your mind yes she rolled for this you
13:24know so one funny thing is any time so I
13:27was in the summer 14 batch and so every
13:29week we had a speaker and every time the
13:32speaker was talking about hiring that's
13:34the moment I was in my phone because I
13:35was like you know I don't care hiring is
13:37a long time from now on and that's
13:40probably a big mistake I've done because
13:42then you understand that hiring is the
13:44key if you fell on that your company
13:45will fail so you should listen and just
13:47take notes and read the notes later on
13:48so this I can tell you one piece of
13:52advice that I got from Patrick Allison
13:54the CEO of stripe that I thought it was
13:56super insightful they said in the early
13:59days every time you hire someone just
14:00think about whether you want 10 times
14:03this person because the truth is this
14:05person will hire people like them so I'm
14:08interviewing you and I'm like do I want
14:0910 Jeff in this team yeah so if the
14:15answer is you know maybe I do so if the
14:18answer is yes then you know I can hire
14:20you if the answer is no but the bar
14:22should be as high as that and I think
14:23that was a good piece of advice that I
14:25received from the very beginning it
14:27seems like front has a strong specific
14:30culture yes did you pay attention to
14:34that as you were hiring from the
14:35beginning and and how did you how did
14:37you implement that how did you think
14:38about it yes I think very early on I was
14:42very deliberate about it was what we
14:45call today our values but I basically
14:48know who I think I would work well with
14:52and who I wouldn't work well with and
14:54that's the truth like our values or just
14:56extensions of who we are Aska founders
14:59and so you know some of our values are
15:02low ego and high standards care and
15:04collaborate collaboration and the last
15:06one is transparency and I just believe
15:08that I'm incredibly demanding and that's
15:10why high standards is part of our value
15:12and I don't want to hire anyone that
15:14doesn't have these standards I'm also I
15:16think very low ego like it doesn't mean
15:19nigo but when I make a decision I think
15:21about front first and I think about our
15:23employees first and I think about myself
15:24after and I think that just putting
15:27words on what we care about as
15:30co-founders and then making sure that
15:31you're of your assessing that during
15:34your interview process is what matters
15:35it doesn't it's not useful to display
15:37them on a wall and to explain them and
15:41all of that in the early days but at
15:43least being just self aware is what will
15:45help you hire the right people and it
15:48does kind of speak to the fact that you
15:50are going to play an important role in
15:52hiring everybody in the beginning yeah
15:54and I kept interviewing everyone till
15:56like employee number 80 or something did
15:59you ever find yourself in a position of
16:02needing or wanting or having to
16:05compromise on those values or did the
16:07values always take precedent like
16:08there's there is someone who maybe
16:09didn't quite match the values but was
16:11like the perfect fit for the designer
16:13job so no we'd never sew or if we did
16:16then we let go the person after which is
16:18where it's worse yeah never worked and I
16:21think it's incredibly important in a
16:22company that it's festering like you
16:24think for example I've been willing to
16:26hire a head of finance for I don't know
16:28six months and it's so important like we
16:30don't have any finance person at front
16:32and we I don't know we're 110 people
16:35we've raised 80 million and I'm I don't
16:37know what I'm doing because I've never
16:38done any finance work before but I've
16:40never found someone that I was
16:43incredibly excited about that had both
16:45the skills and would match our values so
16:48I'm not hiring anyone and I think being
16:50very disciplined about not hiring even
16:52if you desperately need this person is
16:54important I want to move on to product
16:57but before we do that I'm just wondering
17:00if if you were going to talk to
17:02relatively new startup founders or
17:04people with young companies like most of
17:07the companies in start-up school is
17:08there specific advice you'd give about
17:10creating a culture of success the
17:14creating the kind of culture you have it
17:15front for them so I think my biggest
17:22advice would be one to be incredibly
17:27demanding so I just feel like in the
17:29early days if you have someone that's
17:32being very tough and letting this person
17:36go I think that's a mistake I've seen
17:39because you know if you have a team of
17:40five and one person is not working out
17:42and you kind of know and you always know
17:44and you're not making this tough
17:45decision that it has an impact on your
17:48entire team it's easy to say hard to do
17:50and I can tell you how we've done it I
17:52think that's super important I think
17:54transparency is just so important in the
17:56early days and even if even at scale but
18:00so making sure that everyone in your
18:02company knows everything like there is
18:04no reason why you should hide anything
18:06maybe except for I don't know salaries
18:08so I was going to ask well when you say
18:11transparency people throw that word out
18:13a lot how do you what what in in actual
18:16practice what does that mean for you at
18:18front so it means that everyone knows
18:20what icon so few things when I think
18:22there is bad transparency and good
18:24transparency real transparency is
18:26everything that you can share that will
18:28help people do their job better and help
18:31answer question they have that
18:32transparency will raise more questions
18:34and create more problems than you need
18:37and so for example like sharing salaries
18:40like we can have a debate about that but
18:42I think it raises more questions than in
18:43the actually solve and solve problems
18:46but then everything else so everyone
18:50knows or revenue or churn every email
18:52about I don't know leads coming in and
18:55telling us what they want customer
18:57complaining about this or being happy
18:59about that every NPS score that is here
19:03either people are super happy super
19:04upset everything is public or run away
19:06the amount of cash we have in the bank
19:08account every board meeting that we do
19:10we publish the board egg then I do in Oh
19:12hands and I share what the board said in
19:16or I answer questions on the board egg
19:17every I don't know I share just
19:19everything that's business-related
19:22and also how I feel like I'm happy to
19:24say I'm extremely happy about that and
19:27I'm extremely and have you about that
19:29and ever and every one of the company
19:32ends up knowing that and they know that
19:33and I think it's good because then if
19:34you really want people to work on this
19:36thing that are broken there is no point
19:38in hiding what's broken and there is
19:39always this this human feeling of I will
19:43not share because you know they will be
19:45worried I'm gonna tell them that that's
19:48broken and some people join two days ago
19:51and they're gonna know that it's broken
19:53but that's fine because what you gain is
19:56the fact that they will all work on the
19:58program and that's better than avoiding
20:01the question and it feels like people
20:03stay aligned and moving in the same
20:04direction yes and I mean you know that
20:07but I think frontiers like at least one
20:09thing there are lots of things that you
20:11know we struggle with but one thing that
20:13we've done I think very well is our
20:15retention of employees so people are
20:17super happy our NPS is 87th which is
20:20super high if you look at Glassdoor
20:23we only have five stars reviews if you
20:25look at our attrition
20:27no one has there are just two people
20:29that have left front ever and it was one
20:31to go back to school one to join the
20:33company of their best friend so I think
20:35we've done a good job and I believe that
20:37we've done a good job because of this
20:39engagement that we've created thanks to
20:41this transparency we were talking
20:43earlier about one great sign for company
20:47their company's product is having really
20:52high retention but likewise I guess
20:53having really high retention of your
20:55employees is a pretty fantastic sign for
20:58yeah and it's important because so much
20:59knowledge is gather institutional right
21:03and you every time you especially if you
21:05lose someone good you lose so much money
21:07so much so you guys are a really
21:10interesting case because you're an
21:14enterprise company that started with a
21:17handful of customers well zero
21:19eventually a handful and then you've
21:22scaled to thousands can you talk about
21:25the early days of figuring out that you
21:29had product market fit and then and then
21:31a little bit about the the evolution to
21:34you know going from you know we were
21:36just talking about ten or hundred people
21:38too many more yeah so I would say a few
21:41a few things so first thing is I
21:43remember when I arrived here in YC four
21:46years ago Kevin Hale was came to me and
21:51was like what's our company and says
21:52like it's France and then it was like oh
21:54so cool I think it's one of the coolest
21:57company from this batch and
21:58then I was sure that he was talking
22:00about another company so as any true
22:03like I just was sitting he was confused
22:05about oh you must be you must be
22:07confusing me with another couple it's
22:09just like I wasn't confident in another
22:11example is my batch mates would come to
22:14me and say should we use your product
22:16and I was like use our computer it's
22:18much better it's true like I just I've
22:19always been very ashamed with the
22:22current state of the product and so and
22:25so of course convinced that we didn't
22:27have product market phase isn't that one
22:30of the one of the definitions of product
22:32market fit is a product that your
22:33customers love but that you're ashamed
22:34of I maybe I think it's actually a good
22:38thing that you're ashamed of your
22:39product but so product market fit at
22:44least I can tell you that if you feel
22:45like you don't have product market fit
22:46right it doesn't mean that you're doomed
22:49but then I think that there is a lot of
22:52thing that we I'm also someone that's
22:54like incredibly honest with myself and I
22:57can't just wake up and think that I
23:00don't have product market fit I need to
23:02fix every single prime that I have so
23:04how did I do that one is I've been
23:08incredibly disciplined about talking to
23:11as many users as possible
23:13so my day to day @yc four years ago and
23:17I can tell you what my day to day is
23:18today but it's not very different
23:20I was talking to leads and customers all
23:24the time and I made sure that every
23:26single day I had at least I don't know
23:29seven eight meetings with people that
23:31sign up to our product even if they
23:33ended up not using our product doesn't
23:35matter I want to talk to them and I want
23:36to understand why they got initially
23:38interested can I just stop you there
23:40do you remember that this might be a
23:43stretch but do you remember any specific
23:45conversations that maybe change the
23:47trajectory or at least change the
23:48product so in significant ways yeah and
23:50I actually in YC sue we started with
23:52this email that was helping companies
23:54menu cheering boxes so share the email
23:57addresses like support add sales at and
23:59that's what it was doing and then we
24:01took to adora this year of homejoy and
24:04we partner no voice upon her now YC
24:07startup school awesome and so she told
24:12that you've built it's awesome could it
24:14work with SMS because they were chatting
24:17through SMS with other cleaners and then
24:20we looked at 12 yo and their EPA was
24:23pretty good and so we realized that in a
24:25week we could just add SMS as a new
24:27channel and any droves so much revenue
24:30because I think there was a big need for
24:32collaboration around and I would have
24:35never thought about it I've never worked
24:36in a company that uses SMS to work but
24:40and so that's one example but I have
24:41many more I basically have never like
24:43I've worked when you're in a company so
24:45what do I know about business workflows
24:47and still today the reason why I still
24:49spend a ton of time talking to either
24:51leads or customers is because we're
24:54going up market we're going in new kinds
24:58of companies and new use kisses and one
25:01of the use keys that front is super
25:03popular in is logistics and
25:05transportation and so I'm going to these
25:08tracking conferences and trying to
25:10understand what do I know about their
25:12awful is nothing you stand out at a
25:14trucking comforts right I do
25:17so if I don't talk to them then I can't
25:22lead the company in the right way
25:23because I can't hire the right people
25:25make the right product decisions and so
25:28I just believe that that's what I used
25:29to do that's what I still do I think
25:32it's insanely important and the only way
25:34you'll manage to do that is by hustling
25:37like the truth is when you're early and
25:38you need to have eight meetings a day
25:40it's insanely difficult and so you need
25:42to do everything you can from reaching
25:45out to all the people you know to
25:46finding new ways to writing contents in
25:49the hope of someone reading and then
25:50ultimately signing up to your product
25:52and that's what I did and I think that's
25:55what's made us grow quickly in the in
25:58the early days so when you entered YC do
26:01you remember how many customers you had
26:03so one thing I remember is when I am
26:06when I interviewed at YC we had 3,000
26:09companies that had sign up to our
26:10product but it was closed beta so they
26:12were not using it yet and then I was
26:14unborn them one by one and every time
26:16was the same thing great but we don't
26:18want to use your product because you
26:19don't have XYZ or it isn't it doesn't
26:21work so maybe out of the 3,000 companies
26:23maybe one ended up using the frogs but
26:26that's just how I built so much
26:28knowledge about what they wanted and
26:30then I was telling no need to build that
26:32or a one feature away I promise just one
26:35features who an a future away I still
26:37say that today and when you left why see
26:40how many customers did you have so when
26:42we left we see we had 5,000 mr and so we
26:47had probably like 130 companies using
26:50the product which is pretty amazing so
26:52do you recall what the retention was of
26:54those 130 companies yes so we hadn't had
26:57a single user churn so basically the
26:58reason why I'm saying that is cuz every
27:01time someone drained the company at
27:02front I show the video of demo day so I
27:05know my dividend heart because I've
27:07listened to it so many times and so part
27:09of the pitch is we've haven't had a
27:10single user churn so and that's good
27:14right great it doesn't mean though so
27:16that's great but what wasn't great is
27:18our conversion rate from you know trial
27:20to paid was terrible why was that I mean
27:24just because the product was very early
27:26and so didn't have a lot of the features
27:28that the market needed so have you
27:31managed to shift that over time yeah I
27:33mean we've built more and more and so
27:35our conversion has increased I want to
27:39talk about how you went from hundreds to
27:41thousands of customers but a question
27:44that's come up a lot during start-up
27:46school is like how do you figure out how
27:48to price your product you talk about the
27:51you know fronts pricing journey from
27:52wherever you started to how you started
27:55in to where you are now yeah so we
27:57started with a freemium model so we had
28:003 or $9 per user per month one thing I
28:03would say is just release your pricing
28:05as early as possible because there is so
28:08first you are always scared that you're
28:10not ready but you're ready all of you at
28:13least the good thing is that will
28:16confront you to the market and that's
28:17what you need to is when you want to
28:19listen to some feedback you should
28:20listen to feedback of people that are
28:22paying some money because otherwise you
28:23can be over one with feedback from
28:26people that will never pay for your
28:27product so we had a freemium model what
28:29we realized is even if we had a free
28:31product I think at the end we maybe had
28:3415% of our users and the free plan so it
28:37was more a distraction like it's good to
28:39Glenn if that's a way for you to get
28:41AIDS and then you convert these leads
28:43but if it's just something where you end
28:46up having you know 15% of your users
28:48it's not useful so removed it change it
28:50into nine and nineteen consistently
28:53increase prices over time maybe too much
28:56do you feel like you started too low
28:59yeah and I think 99.99% of people will
29:03tell you that they started too so yeah
29:05right it doesn't matter though because
29:07you can increase price later it's harder
29:10to increase than to decrease I suppose
29:11yeah true but everyone does it how did
29:20you come up with those numbers was it
29:24this oh yeah it's I mean you can work is
29:27so we're now for the first thing you ask
29:29customers what they would pay and no no
29:32I don't think they can I don't think
29:35they can tell you they yeah I just do I
29:37mean of course you can look at your kind
29:39of competition and then make sure that
29:41you're not ten times cheaper or ten
29:43times more expensive but then once you
29:46know that and you have a range of
29:47speaker number and it is like in the
29:50scope of distraction that you can have
29:52in the early days like thinking too much
29:54about the pricing is one of them just
29:56pick a price and sell the products and
29:57you'll see what people say I wanted to
30:01dig more into one other thing about sort
30:03of the initial stages of growth and
30:06talking to customers is there any advice
30:07you would give because you know you just
30:09gave a really useful piece of advice
30:11which is to talk to people who are
30:12paying more than people who aren't but
30:14what what advice can you give to people
30:17who are trying to extract useful
30:19feedback from customers yes so I mean I
30:24think first of all you should understand
30:26that not everyone wants to share
30:27feedback in the same way and so for us
30:29we had different ways to get feedback so
30:31one of them was talking to people and so
30:33people that would accept to talk to me I
30:35would talk to them and they would tell
30:36me I like this I don't like that but
30:38another thing that we did was we were
30:41using Trello for product roadmap and so
30:43we published our Trello roadmap and so
30:46if you even today if you go in front of
30:48that comes a shred map you can see our
30:50roadmap in public its public it's always
30:53I can talk about that but you can vote
30:55for the thing that you want and that's
30:57one of the way we got a ton of feedback
30:59as well so I just felt like some people
31:02and then another thing that we did was
31:03every quarter at the beginning of the
31:05quarter I would email all our customers
31:07and I would say working on the roadmap
31:09for this quarter what do you want to see
31:10and then they would reply and so I think
31:12it was a good mix of people that want to
31:14spend a lot of time people that want to
31:16spend some time and what I just want to
31:18do one click but in anyway you need to
31:21have this data so that sounds like it's
31:25a little bit later in your evolution
31:26when you're at Trello and you had a had
31:28a roadmap and the very beginning when
31:30you're trying to figure out you know you
31:32talk to a door and figure out SMS what
31:35was what was was that like how did you
31:36know if you were talking to a customer
31:37who was giving you useful feedback or
31:40basically wasting your time yeah so I
31:44mean so I think once you talk to someone
31:47you have to figure out if you understand
31:50the person really well because they can
31:52tell you I think I want that and then
31:53you build it and that's not what they
31:54want so the best way you can think about
31:57sales so I would bet that most of you
32:01are not excited about doing a sales call
32:03I mean that's my guess and it's normal
32:06because I otherwise you would be doing
32:08sales in a company and that was how I
32:13yeah that's how I felt as well so one
32:16thing that I would say is the way I
32:17thought about sales in the early days
32:19was I wanted to make sure I understood
32:22exactly where the workflows of people
32:24where what their issue was and then
32:27think afterwards confront solve it and I
32:31think that then it becomes pretty
32:32interesting so today when I do a sales
32:34goal or sales meeting or customer
32:36success meeting like I'm not here to
32:38sell extra feature or to demo the
32:40product like I find that a bit boring
32:42but what I'm here to do is understand
32:45exactly what their pin point is and what
32:47the workflow is and then can I explain
32:50to them how that could be better with
32:52front if it can be better with front and
32:55so I guess they're choosing that you
32:56need to focus on when he is being
32:58incredibly honest with yourself about
33:00whether front is a good solution for
33:01them and even today one of the things
33:03that I struggle the most with is telling
33:06these are some news kisses we want and
33:08these are some use cases we don't want
33:10and being very deliberate about saying
33:12yes and no in the early days is insanely
33:15important and you know that the truth is
33:17you know where you want this company to
33:20be and you don't know how to dissent but
33:22at least you can tell if that's
33:24something you want or there's something
33:25you do you want and then making sure
33:28that you were super curious when you
33:29were doing these sales calls and making
33:32sure that it was more about
33:33understanding something that someone is
33:36telling you more than deeming the
33:37product or showing a list of features
33:39they probably don't care that much about
33:41yeah so I want to come back to that
33:43because it seems to hearken back to your
33:45idea of discipline basically you're
33:47saying you have to see notice some
33:48customers because because if you want to
33:51keep your turn down to zero and you sell
33:53the wrong person the wrong product
33:55you're going to have turn right and I
33:57think the journey is not the the I think
33:59the biggest danger I think the biggest
34:01danger is you have a customer and then
34:03you know you care so much about growing
34:05your revenues so then they're telling
34:06you I want this and so then you build
34:08this and I want that and you build that
34:10and then you just pull your you push
34:12your product in a direction that you
34:14don't want to go and I think that's the
34:17biggest mistake let's talk a little bit
34:20about sales because you have a I mean
34:23you've had to learn about enterprise
34:26sales all on your own
34:27and you've had to build a sales force
34:30talk a little bit about what that's been
34:32like and what advice you would give to
34:34people who are probably just a couple of
34:36folks trying to figure out how to get
34:38their product into customers hands so I
34:41guess my advice based on a mistake I did
34:43was first you need to figure out there
34:45are different sales machines you can
34:47have so for example you can have a
34:49bottom-up approach or a top-down
34:50approach so top-down you sell - I don't
34:54know CIO and then they replay the
34:56product but IMAP is you demo the product
34:59to the end-user and because they tell
35:00you that it could be a great tool then
35:02that's how they'll buy and I think that
35:04it's we try to do both and we've
35:07struggled a lot and first of all I think
35:09you should know how you want to sell
35:11your product because the people you are
35:13hire the way you will sell your like
35:15everything will be different
35:16if you're bottom-up or top-down so piece
35:20now I can tell you that we started
35:22bottom up so we had a lot of customers
35:26and it was like it was a numbers game so
35:29the only thing that I cared about was
35:31our reps should call every lead five
35:35times and should end up having 15 demos
35:38every week and I don't care about how
35:41they make it happen but I want to see
35:43that level of activity and so you know
35:46every morning we would receive an email
35:48saying here are all the calls that have
35:50been done and here are all the meetings
35:52that have been scheduled and that have
35:54been done and I think that the input is
35:56far more important at this stage then
35:58the output because the Tracie is if they
36:00don't hit their target first your target
36:03could be wrong and how could you know
36:05what your target should be when you are
36:06so early and - maybe your product is an
36:11issue or maybe whatever your pricing is
36:12an issue you don't know that so I've
36:14always felt like if you look at the end
36:16number it's actually pretty challenging
36:18and you might blame someone for not
36:20doing a good job or as they're doing a
36:22really good job whereas if you look at
36:24just number of demos and course they
36:26make and if you check that they're not
36:29saying stupid things then they're
36:32probably doing a good job and you should
36:34be happy and not for that you said
36:37something to me the other day about
36:39about what are the key lessons you
36:43learned and you were kind of referring
36:44to it earlier about about the importance
36:47of listening versus describing your
36:50product yeah so I think the tendency
36:53like you're all super either you're
36:55ashamed or you want to show your product
36:58and I think that's the temptation and
36:59every person I took to that showing me
37:02their new company wants to show me the
37:04product the truth is like resist this
37:07sensation first try to ask me questions
37:09because then it's too late like when
37:11you've not read your blog that's the
37:13moment you can ask so much because
37:14people want to see what's new so they
37:16will answer a few questions
37:18and I I believe that you should spend a
37:21lot of time listening to this
37:23understanding and then saying you know
37:26maybe 10% of your features and it
37:27doesn't matter but not sure enduring
37:29like if I do the full demo of front like
37:31you'll be pretty bored now if I explain
37:34when I was in your seat using France I
37:37think is one of the things that made us
37:38successful as the company then and I'm
37:40convinced and I'm obviously super biased
37:42but I am convinced then maybe you'll be
37:44more interested to hear so I'm gonna
37:47transition a little bit before we go to
37:49Q&A I don't know I have a feeling that
37:52your fundraising experience was maybe
37:56unusual I'm not representative maybe a
37:59little bit too simple but maybe I'm
38:01wrong about that were there any lessons
38:03from fundraising that that you think are
38:05useful besides grow really fast and have
38:07a cool company because that helps right
38:10so I mean yes it's unusual every every
38:13time we've raised we've raised in a week
38:15I think if I think about why though so I
38:19think it's unusual and that's not what
38:20you should expect now the thing that we
38:22did well again I coming back to
38:23discipline I've published all my series
38:26seed Series A Series B deck there are
38:28online so you can look at them and
38:30you'll see that our metrics are pretty
38:32good and it just like every single day
38:36every single week in every single month
38:38I care about hitting our targets and I
38:40will do everything it takes for us to
38:42eat our targets and that's what's shown
38:45in these metrics and at the end of the
38:47day even if of course people were
38:49excited about the team we had the market
38:51opportunity and whatever like if you ask
38:54them why were they crazy about front
38:56it's because of four metrics so yeah I
39:01just so grow some good metric the thing
39:03is you can't imagine like even if it
39:06seems obvious the two things I've seen
39:09that I know are wrong from founders one
39:13is coming up with excuses so I'm you
39:17know for example I'm helping you as a
39:19company and you tell me I want a revenue
39:22to grow and then you know the week after
39:24we meet and I'm like what's your revenue
39:26you're like I'm not focusing on that
39:28because we had to redo our homepage
39:30because the conversion blah blah blah
39:31and I don't care about your conversion
39:34like the only thing I care about is but
39:36I think you've convinced yourself that
39:38your website who is more important and
39:40that's something that I see all the time
39:43is as finding excuses for not growing
39:45understand how hard it is to admit that
39:48you wanna grind and that's an issue and
39:50you need to fix it but if you don't
39:52admit it to yourself and your team then
39:54you will not grow that's for sure
39:57one alternative founder delusion yeah
40:00and to is then bring discipline to force
40:03you to face the reality and one way is
40:06to send this weekly email to your team
40:09monthly email to your investors like
40:12it's I've invested in a few companies
40:14since they I don't know in the past few
40:16years and you can't imagine how I can
40:19tell you after two or three emails so
40:22two or three months which companies are
40:24going to be successful and I don't know
40:26if I'm the only one to have that opinion
40:29but I just feel like there are people
40:30that will send in email and nothing for
40:32four month and then email and then blah
40:34blah or some people that will change the
40:36format every single month in a some
40:38people that are incredibly disciplined
40:39about here are our KPIs and I will send
40:42it to you every month and that's also
40:45what I should my team and that's how we
40:47have focused so important that's a great
40:50lesson so last thing I want to talk
40:54about was your co-founder recently got
41:01sick and it caused the company to have
41:05to you know do a whole bunch of things
41:07and and and maybe change you to sort of
41:09relook at your priorities and what was
41:12important to you as a person as a CEO as
41:15a friend as a co-founder and it's just a
41:17human being in the company maybe you can
41:19talk a little bit about about what that
41:21experience has been like
41:22sure so December 2016 so a year and a
41:27half ago my co-founder was diagnosed
41:29with a cancer and it was pretty bad and
41:32now he's fine so oh good but it took 18
41:34months and I think the thing that I
41:36realized and that I would you know well
41:38you're here and you're listening to how
41:40to build a company every single day
41:42you're working on your company it's so
41:43important but you should remember that
41:45like the most important thing is to be
41:49and as much as you care about this
41:51company it's just a job and I can't it's
41:56it's annoying to have to go through this
41:59to realize it but one thing that I do
42:02now is anytime so there are many things
42:05that I've changed personally and for the
42:07company but at least anytime someone
42:11I go through a presentation and I share
42:13like what is France what I care about
42:15and I will always tell them like first
42:18and foremost be happy and healthy and in
42:20front is not a place where you can be
42:23and be happy and healthy you shouldn't
42:25be here and you know Fran is important
42:27but life is for more important than I
42:29think them knowing that's that's how you
42:31think is insanely important so just tell
42:34the people you love that you love them
42:36and spend time with your friends and go
42:38on vacation and all these things are
42:40equally important as price are more
42:42important than pricing your product in
42:45the right way and doing all these phone
42:46calls etc that's just what I've been
42:48asked to talk about the other thing is
42:51one thing that changed my life is
42:52meditation so and I'm also convinced
42:56that it will change the life of probably
42:58made under 95% of human beings so you I
43:03felt like before I felt like I had a
43:05choice between caring so much about my
43:08company and so therefore being unhappy
43:10because if you care so much even if your
43:12company is doing okay there are so many
43:14things to worry about
43:15so I cared so much I was constantly
43:17upset like I don't I'm worried this
43:20customer is churning I'm worried this
43:22person is not working out I'm already I
43:23don't know how we'll hit our goals for
43:25next for next month etc and or then
43:28sometimes I tried to cure less but then
43:30the company wasn't doing as well so I
43:32was like either I care and I'm an IP or
43:34I don't care and I'm an happy because
43:35the company is not doing well so I'm
43:37and I think meditation was really good
43:39because I meditate 10 minutes every
43:41morning I wake up have a shower meditate
43:43for 10 minutes using headspace in this
43:45and it's it's really something that
43:47doesn't have immediate benefits so if
43:49you're wedding like I don't feel better
43:51after I've meditated it's just you have
43:53to think about it as a muscle that
43:54you're training and what it does is
43:56really what it says which is headspace
43:58so it's like I comes I could sell you if
44:01you want how things are going at front
44:04right now but just so many things need
44:06to be figured out and the Tracy is I
44:09feel great it's like I know that I have
44:12to figure out and I know that either I'm
44:15working on them are someone else is
44:16working on them and so I care so much
44:19but I have this headspace to not be
44:22overwhelmed by everything bad that's
44:23happening and that's by far has been the
44:27thing that had the biggest impact in my
44:28life and I think my co-founder being
44:30sick is what led me to me being
44:32overwhelmed to the point where I was not
44:34sure that I could still run in front and
44:36so I had to act and meditation was
44:39another thing I did so try not to wait
44:41until you have something that awful
44:43happened in your your life or someone
44:45you love or someone you're close to his
44:48life we're going to spend more time on
44:50the topic of how how to stay a human
44:52being while you're doing is start up
44:54tomorrow and Daniel gross comes in to
44:57give a talk but with that let's go to
45:00Q&A for a while yeah yeah so the
45:26question is is around dealing with
45:30safety and security when you're trying
45:32to sell to enterprise customers and how
45:36soon can you get it in their hands I
45:37think things like that yes and so even
45:39if you know we didn't start as an
45:41enterprise cells we are dealing with
45:42emails so security was a big deal so
45:45what I would say is it's never enough
45:47the thing is you have to find the
45:49companies that are willing to take more
45:51risks because you have no choice
45:53like for us of course everyone wanted us
45:55to be stuck to complain and stuff we're
45:57still not set to complain today but what
46:00we did we did a lot of things from you
46:03know just a one pager that explained
46:05everything about why our business is
46:07secure to very early on Tesla started
46:11using our product and they wanted to
46:13make sure that they were using it for
46:14product feedback and they were they
46:16wanted to make sure that their
46:18information was secure and so we did a
46:21few penetration tests like that doesn't
46:22cost a lot of money but you know
46:24then if you can say again we had good
46:27results and you can show the results to
46:28other companies then at least it unlocks
46:31some potential it's but the truth is you
46:35also need to agree to not go after a few
46:38industries or just not go after a few
46:41customers because they always want more
46:42but there are companies that will accept
46:45to have their emails deal with a company
46:48that's three months old nothing there's
46:49nothing about anything that you know and
46:51they were because there are a few thing
46:54that you can show them okay you got the
46:55same answer twice so hopefully that
46:56helps yes how did you define why in the
47:11end did you choose a subscription-based
47:12model so I believe that people get more
47:16benefit out of the product when they
47:18have more users so that's the reason why
47:21I also think that most of our most of
47:23the competition so whether you're
47:24looking at helpdesk solutions or email
47:27products they charge per user per month
47:28or per user per year so the combination
47:31of everyone does it plus it seems in
47:32line with the benefit that people get is
47:34what led us to have a subscription model
47:37yes what's the best way to notify your
47:45users you're going to raise prices yeah
47:48it's a good question so I think so I was
47:50chatting with the president of Atlassian
47:52about that and you gave me some good
47:54advice which is the temptation is to say
47:57we're going to raise our price but well
47:59do they do that maybe you know year and
48:01so you want to be nice and so you give a
48:03lot of time the parameters you actually
48:05make your customers angry twice because
48:08by then they had forgotten and so then
48:10BAM again it's almost as if you
48:12increased twice so one trick I've used
48:16so there isn't like just tell them and
48:18and then do it sooner than later there
48:21is no good way to do it one work trick
48:23that I've used that I think is
48:24successful is for us so we have monthly
48:27subscription and you're ready
48:28subscription and so you can tell them
48:30that if they switch to a yearly plan
48:32they will lock their price for one more
48:34year which is win-win they pay less you
48:37the money up front so at least that's
48:39one way to show that you care about them
48:45yes so randomly so how do you set the
48:52target for the first salesperson you
48:54hire so randomly the truth is I didn't
48:57know because I was the only one doing
48:58the job so there are a few ratio you can
49:01hear us so for example they should bring
49:03between 3x and 6x the the the amount of
49:08money they are paid so then you have a
49:10ranch because the truth if they bring
49:12less than what they're paid probably not
49:13good 10x like probably not good either
49:16like you should hire more so once you
49:19have that then building trust with your
49:22first rep saying that's what I will
49:25incor against I have no idea if it's the
49:27right thing but let's reassess every
49:28month and then let's be realistic about
49:31what's feasible or not yes oh this is a
49:48hard question so if users bounce how can
49:50you find them yeah there are a few
49:52technology that you can use like sherbet
49:54is one of them but I mean for us we I
49:57care more about the people that sign up
49:59and end up never converting because they
50:02should interest the truth is I think our
50:04conversion rate on our website I don't
50:06know is maybe 3% so there is so much and
50:10we don't know about them so we don't do
50:11much about them wiki funnels at the top
50:14are difficult yes yeah how sorry how
50:30early should you put pricing out there
50:33and be transparent about it even even
50:36while you're still in beta so it's a
50:38good question one thing I did that I
50:39think was a great idea was so
50:41implementing stripe for us took some
50:43time and so but I wanted to know if
50:45people were willing to pay for the
50:47product before we had stripe its
50:49so in private beta when you signup to
50:51France you would receive an automated
50:53email from me saying what would you give
50:55me to get access to your product or
50:57product and so then I don't know so I
51:00like Legos and that was my twitter feed
51:03and some people would send me Legos
51:06LEGO sets or like when our first
51:10customer is a company called loomio they
51:12do a lamp and so they said we'll give
51:14you a lamp and so I guess I was just
51:16very you know creative into trying to
51:18understand what people were willing to
51:20give and if it's not money doesn't
51:22matter the truth is even giving an hour
51:24of their time if you ask them you can
51:26have access if you spend 30 minutes an
51:28hour with me is a proof that they will
51:30accept to give something in the back how
51:38did you get those first 3,000 signups
51:40for private beta so it was only content
51:42marketing so I was doing an email
51:45product and I was ready writing all
51:47these blog posts about is email dead as
51:51slack is saying or like all kinds of
51:54think that I think people were curious
51:56to hear about or what will you know look
51:57like 20 years from now and content
52:00marketing was or then I was at way C and
52:02I was writing a something about what
52:04it's like to be at YC a month in and
52:07then another one what it's like to be
52:08away see three months in and and just
52:11people kept reading them and so content
52:13marketing has been big for us I think
52:14it's good in the early days I don't know
52:16if it scales as much I don't think it
52:17does but that's how we get our signups
52:21yes so how do you adjust pricing in the
52:39context of of feature demands or new
52:43product demands from customers the
52:45Tracy's new features are always a great
52:47way to upsell and so usually with like I
52:50was very happy to build a new feature
52:52and put it in a new plan and say like
52:54would you you can have a 30 day trial of
52:57this feature but then would you be done
52:58to double the price per user if you're
53:00using that feature also something that
53:02two years ago and I wrote a blog post
53:04about this is we built a a back-end
53:09system that enables us to each rate
53:11super quickly on our pricing so if
53:13tomorrow I want to change one of our
53:15enterprise feature and put it in the
53:17premium plan like I can easily do it and
53:19I can just release the new pricing
53:22doesn't gender anything for existing
53:23users so that's a good way to just look
53:26at your cohorts and see where does every
53:29feature feed best we're gonna do one
53:31more question right here so the question
53:42is you quit your job because you wanted
53:44to work an email but how did you figure
53:45out what product to build so I think
53:48email is a big crime to solve and so we
53:50had to make sure that we had the right
53:52go to market which was shared email
53:54addresses as a way to enter this market
53:56the reason is it was an easier product
54:00to build people were willing to pay for
54:02it and you could have a lightweight
54:03deployment within an organization so
54:05that's the entire company needs to use
54:08France the reason I chose that is I had
54:11a pain point when I was at this company
54:13I remember that we had all these support
54:16ad sales at addresses and people kept
54:19asking me did you reply to this email
54:21and I was like yes do you need to CCU
54:23and every single you know so just
54:24believe me that I replied to this email
54:27and that's a pin point I had seen and so
54:30I thought it was a great a good entry
54:32awesome thank you material thank you so
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