00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael
00:03on this segment of the podcast Ben
00:05Horowitz sits down with Shaka Senghor
00:07author of writing my wrongs life death
00:11and redemption in an American prison
00:14Sango talks about his almost two decades
00:18the brutal rules of leadership on the
00:20inside and sang gars own life and
00:22redemption on the outside Ben Horowitz
00:26kicks things off how's everybody doing I
00:31thought I'd introduce our speaker by
00:34just telling the story of how he and I
00:35met because it's a it's an interesting
00:39story and how we met how we became
00:41friends so it actually started with an
00:45event that some of you may have been at
00:46when I interviewed Oprah where any of
00:49you at that so on the on the car ride
00:54over I was like super nervous because
00:57I'm interviewing Oprah and like that's
01:00like trying to like give Albert Einstein
01:03a physics pop quiz or something like
01:05that and so I was like Oprah police
01:08helped me like teach me how to interview
01:10real quick before I interview you it's
01:13like what's the secret how do you get
01:14people to open up like that and she said
01:16well Ben I always ask people you know
01:18before I interview them ask them what
01:20are their intentions and I said she says
01:22and I'll give you an example because you
01:24have to know their intentions and then
01:26like I have them trust me to help them
01:30get their intentions no matter what I
01:31asked and she said so I just had this
01:37Jacques angora who just got a huge 19
01:40years in prison and you know up for
01:42murder and all these things and he was
01:44like a big guy scary-looking guy and so
01:47I asked him I said you know shaaka what
01:50are your intentions and he said well my
01:52intention is to let people know that
01:55just because you were in prison for 19
01:57years doesn't mean that you're a bad
02:01person or that's who you are you can
02:03change you can be redeemed and I want
02:06people to understand that it's very
02:07important to know and so she said okay I
02:10got it and so we went into the interview
02:13and she said so I'm asked him I said you
02:15know when did you get into crime like at
02:17what age and he said well I hit the
02:19streets when I was 14 years old and
02:22Oprah said well van I had read his book
02:24and I knew there was a part in the book
02:28that I wanted to ask him about because I
02:29didn't think that was right and I said
02:30Chaka I said what about when you were 9
02:33and you came home and you had a perfect
02:37grade on your test and your mother to a
02:40how did that make you feel and she said
02:43he tensed up and said hey like I didn't
02:47feel good about that
02:48and she and she said I looked at him to
02:51make him know that I knew what his
02:52intentions were and you know to try and
02:55get the real answer I said no like how
02:56to really make you feel and he said like
02:58it made me feel like nothing that I
03:01would do in life was ever gonna matter
03:04and she said you hit the street when you
03:07were 9 years old and you know and then
03:10like she said and like me and him were
03:11just like both crying together and I was
03:13I was starting to cry as like extremely
03:15emotional but then she said you know
03:21afterwards in the epilogue I asked Jack
03:24I said you know I think your mom may
03:29have had like a mental health issue and
03:31she said afterward Chaka called her back
03:34like a week later and said you know I
03:35checked it with my family and she did
03:37and he never knew that and so you know
03:39his whole life went that way on that and
03:41so I was like wow what a great story so
03:42I called my wife and I'm like I like
03:45Oprah told me the story about this guy
03:48Shaq I like its incredible story and I
03:50just wanted to tell her the story but
03:52she goes on Facebook and like tries to
03:58and like then he like accepts the friend
04:01request and so next thing I know she's
04:05like oh look I got his book like I got
04:07the galley and I was like okay well I'll
04:09take a look at the book and I read the
04:10book and it was surprising to me cuz I
04:12hate books that other people write but
04:19this book you know I liked and I liked
04:22it one because it was super honest which
04:24I wasn't expecting because like for
04:26somebody who's gone through something
04:27like that you don't expect them to
04:28actually tell the truth about it I was
04:30super honest but the thing that I liked
04:32more was as a writer you know if you're
04:36not like a writer who's been trained
04:38that way and so forth like it's easy to
04:41like you get to a point and you're tired
04:43and a cliche pops into your head and you
04:45just write it but if I read that in a
04:47book I read somebody just go oh like you
04:50could cut the tension like with a knife
04:52I'm just closed the book that's it and
04:54so I'm reading shock his book and he
04:56never fell in so he would be like if he
04:57got to there he'd be like well you could
04:59cut the tension with a prison shank you
05:03know like so he would take you right
05:04back into the story on I was like this
05:06guy's really poetic what an interesting
05:08book and then Felicia says well like
05:11he's coming out for a visit I was like
05:13well I said I'd like the buckeyes I
05:15wanted to meet the guy he's you did you
05:21that could be scary so she's like well
05:23like can you go to dinner I was like
05:24okay he's but I want you to schedule the
05:27dinner two blocks from the house in case
05:28it goes bad which he did she's scheduled
05:31two blocks from the house and then we
05:33had dinner and he and I literally you
05:36know we went to dinner at like 5:30 in
05:37the evening and he and I were up till
05:402:30 in the morning just talking the
05:42whole time and we it was crazy how much
05:46we had in common from we listened to the
05:47exact same music and I'm not just I know
05:49a lot of you guys think oh it's the new
05:51latest rap this and that but I'm talking
05:53about going all the way back to
05:54Parliament Funkadelic and Fela Kuti and
05:57all these guys and then but he also what
06:02I found out is you know to his life he
06:05got into a prison he was running a
06:07business and then within prison and he
06:09was running a business and I'm not to
06:12say I don't like everybody who runs
06:13business as I absolutely do not in fact
06:15I don't like most of them but when
06:18somebody runs something like I can talk
06:20to them about how they see people and
06:22how they see motivations and systems and
06:25how they see decisions and that was
06:27another thing we really saw eye-to-eye
06:29on so I would like to introduce to you
06:32author poet great manager and my friend
06:54wow this is beautiful
06:56alright so I think let's start with you
06:59just kind of telling your story from
07:02your perspective and just give people
07:05just a bit of a flavour yes oh hey how's
07:11it's amazing evening thank you all for
07:13coming out so I grew up in the city of
07:16Detroit on the east side in a
07:19neighborhood that on the outside looking
07:22in I was pretty much the model for black
07:25middle-class America and my parents were
07:29for all intensive purposes they look
07:33like that model black couple my father
07:36worked in mental health industry was
07:39also an Air Force Reserves and my mother
07:43but beneath that surface was some deeply
07:49entrenched internal problems in our
07:52household my mother was very abusive
07:54very domineering and as her and my
07:58father's relationship began to
07:59deteriorate her abuses escalated and
08:03they reached such a point to where at
08:06the age of 13 and 14 I decided that I
08:11couldn't stand one more hit from her and
08:18and I decided at that point that you
08:21know I would run away and you know all
08:27you have been 13 14 at some point hit
08:30like [ __ ] think most you are seen a
08:33couple people back in the world juvenile
08:36no but but seriously so at that age you
08:39you you really feel like you have life
08:41just figured out and I thought that one
08:47of my friend's parents would see this
08:49you know the smart kid and that they
08:53would take me in and unfortunately life
08:56just didn't work out like that and so
08:58what happened was I bounced from kind of
09:00garages and basements and you know step
09:04you know clubhouses we would make up and
09:08after a couple of weeks you know I
09:11realized that I was in way over my head
09:13and I fell victim to what happens
09:19oftentimes to young kids who run away I
09:21got seduced into the drug trade and this
09:25was the beginning when crack first kind
09:28of hit the Midwest in Detroit 1986 or so
09:31and I got pulled into this culture
09:37within the first six months of being
09:40sucked into that environment I
09:42experienced every imaginable horror that
09:45comes with that culture my childhood
09:47friend was murdered I was robbed at
09:50gunpoint at one point I was beaten
09:52nearly to death and I also became
09:56addicted to the drug fortunately I like
10:01to make in money more than I like to get
10:03high so at the age of fourteen I figured
10:06out how to break that addiction
10:08fast-forward three years I was still
10:11deeply immersed in that culture and I
10:13got into a conflict and I got shot
10:15multiple times my friends they call the
10:21amber labs never arrived and one of my
10:23friends who had previously been shot he
10:25actually took me to the hospital and
10:27dropped me off he wasn't you know a
10:30guardian anything so he couldn't check
10:32me in off 17 years old so he basically
10:34had to drop me off and leave me and go
10:35and for my family with what had occurred
10:39he got in the hospital doctor pulled the
10:44bullets out with exceptional one I still
10:46have a bullet in my foot they pretty
10:49much patched me up and within a couple
10:51of days I was back to the same block
10:54where I got shot out at that time I
10:57didn't even know what post-traumatic
10:58stress disorder was all I knew was what
11:01I felt like no one stepped in and was
11:05like you know hey this shouldn't happen
11:08are you gonna have all these different
11:09fillings you're gonna be paranoid you're
11:10gonna be fearful and so at 17 years old
11:13I was left to grapple with those
11:17and looking around the environment that
11:20I grew up in where I saw multiple old
11:21friends shot you know my mother has
11:23three children three three males she's a
11:26total of six children all three of us
11:27have been shot one of my brother's
11:30currently paralyzed has been paralyzed
11:31since 1998 looking around I begin to
11:37process what I had experienced and I
11:40realized in the hoods that I grew up in
11:42is better to be the shooter than the
11:44person getting shot and so I began to
11:47carry a gun every day it didn't matter
11:49what I was doing cooking eating sleeping
11:52I had a pillow I mean a gun like a
11:55literally right there by my side but I
11:58was also processing in my head that if I
12:01found myself in the conflict that I was
12:04sue first and within 16 months I got
12:10into multiple conflicts and in each one
12:13I fired first and tragically in July
12:181991 got into a conflict it's nearly
12:232:00 in the morning the drug transaction
12:26that I didn't want to make because it
12:28was a gap brought two guys to my house
12:31that I didn't know and I wouldn't make
12:32the drug transaction and we got into a
12:35conflict and it escalated threats were
12:36exchanged and I turned to walk in the
12:39house and when I took that step to walk
12:45in the house he attempted to open the
12:50car door and I turned around and
12:53firewood turned out to be four fatal
12:56I was subsequently arrested a couple of
13:01days later went through the legal
13:04process and in sentences 17 to 40 years
13:08in prison 15 years for the murder two
13:11years for the gun and I was one month
13:15into my 19th birthday at the time and so
13:19when I entered prison I was just bitter
13:21angry broken didn't want to be
13:24responsible confused more than anything
13:26else and I can see it in that same
13:30yeah and it's you know it's interesting
13:35how as you're going through that you're
13:38picking up lessons from your experiences
13:41they just happen to be a real certain
13:43kind of experiences and when one of the
13:45things I remember from the book that
13:48really struck me was the first time when
13:51you were in jail not even prison but
13:53jail and the guy but the other guy don't
13:57utter a serial or something and then his
14:00expectation was like you know okay you
14:04owe me and then he ended up choking the
14:07guy and raping him and like when you saw
14:12that what did you think you took away
14:16and then what did you end up taking away
14:19from like witnessing that kind of thing
14:21that was that was one of those moments
14:29where everything became starkly real for
14:32me and that I realized that I was in one
14:35of the most barbaric and depraved
14:36environments imaginable and what I said
14:41to myself was dead no matter how much
14:45time I served I would never allow myself
14:47to reach that level of depravity but the
14:52flipside of that is that I realized that
14:54in that moment that prison and jail is
14:59the equivalent of a jungle and it's the
15:03law of survival and that you have to
15:05type of people in environment lions and
15:07sheeps and I made it up in my mind that
15:10I would be a lion and that set the
15:13course for how I experienced my time in
15:18prison yeah yeah and when you because
15:24you're and then you think a lot in terms
15:26of systems how is it you know like what
15:32is it about like when you separate the
15:34prisoners from the prison in terms of
15:37what makes it a jungle like what
15:41contributes to that how do you how do
15:44so the way I see it and and just even in
15:49the way that you articulated there's
15:50there is the prison and then there's the
15:52man that's in prison and there's two
15:55different systems running at the same
15:56time so there's the administrative
15:58system who's you know they're very
16:00sponsibility as to and sort of safety of
16:03society makes sure that the you know the
16:06prison system runs within the boundaries
16:07of the rules but then there's the system
16:11of the jungle that is kind of more about
16:18who rises to the hierarchy right you
16:21know and how do you manage that how do
16:23you you know acquire finance how do you
16:26take care so how do you protect yourself
16:29and it's a very sophisticated system you
16:32know it's the drug trafficking a loan
16:35sharking you know I ran a loan sharking
16:38business with like ridiculous markups
16:48ranch stores where and I had I had like
16:51a floating economy right so I was in
16:53cellblock where Michigan reformatories
16:56two cell blocks was Jay Larkins I block
16:58and they gave money on alternating weeks
17:01and sort of way that I made things
17:04function was that when they didn't have
17:06money I had all the money in this
17:08cellblock so I would just send money
17:09over there and just cycle it had a
17:11hundred percent profit each time and so
17:17the way that those systems work is that
17:19the administration they have to allow it
17:22to exist because otherwise they can't
17:25control the environment so they'd rather
17:30have you guys have a system of how you
17:33survive or that because if you take that
17:37system away they don't know what's gonna
17:38happen or like yeah cuz they never get
17:40into creation utter utter chaos so it's
17:42kind of like a self-governance rules
17:45govern behavior unwritten rules of
17:48prisoners it's kind of like you can do
17:50whatever you want to do until you
17:51blatantly get caught right or you put it
17:54in our face and such a waiting to go
17:57higher-ups we don't aren't at the prison
17:59right but it's just a very very
18:02sophisticated way that the prison
18:05systems operate and and it's it's very
18:08corporate though and it's you know not
18:11as probably a little more cut though
18:12than shank is going on the Silicon
18:20Valley but but the mentality of like you
18:26know even like corporate takeovers
18:29taking over the territory and ensuring
18:31that my product placement you know it's
18:34like all these different things about
18:37entrepreneurship that manifests in that
18:40environment but from a very you know
18:42psychologically walk away yeah when you
18:45came out of the shadow economy outside
18:47of prison yeah and that had a hierarchy
18:50and then like is that the that hierarchy
18:53translate into prison or the rules
18:56harder are they like how is that how
18:58does that change so that the going in
19:01depending on what's our status is in the
19:03streets they take how you know you're
19:06incorporated into the prison system
19:08right so if you're really respecting the
19:10street it depends on what your respected
19:12for you can be you can get a lot of
19:14money in streets and guys respect
19:16hustlers but you're also got to be able
19:17to keep your money and so that's a
19:19different thing once you go to prison is
19:21that you can be a hustler but if you
19:22can't protect your money then the status
19:26change right basically right so so in
19:30the streets where money kind of trumps
19:32everything else and prison violence
19:34trumps everything else because it's to
19:36violence that you dictate who can keep
19:38the amorous to violence as power so
19:40really the rule of the jungle yeah so
19:46you know one of the one of the things
19:51that really surprised me about your
19:54story cuz it's you know story a prison
19:56or redemption at the high level you know
19:58you have in your mind one way but when I
20:01read the book what I started to see was
20:03a lot of your reflection came as the guy
20:09says as you those are the
20:11prison system and then the prisoner
20:13system and you ended up because you were
20:16so determined at the top of the prisoner
20:19system but then you're making the
20:21decisions and you have to decide what
20:24the consequences of somebody's actions
20:27are somebody Rob's a guy then like
20:29you're the judge yeah and where did that
20:34take you and how did that start to move
20:37you to the path that you're on now so
20:41and in the rise to that space always
20:45grapple with with the reality that we
20:49were extending the hurt that we
20:52experienced in the streets and the
20:53street culture to the environment that
20:55we were in and unfortunately it's a
20:59necessary evil and an environment where
21:02everything is so contained it's kind of
21:05like this in prison it's like you know
21:07if you allow a transgression to go then
21:12you become prey yeah and so you know you
21:16compare about rules that may not be
21:18based on your moral compass but they're
21:21based on your survival instinct and the
21:24necessity of survival and and as I rose
21:29to those rankings it was one of the
21:33greatest battles that I had to face
21:36because every decision I made was
21:39potentially cost my their life or cost
21:42somebody life in prison and sometimes
21:45your guys their life or the other guy
21:47their life are you yeah because if they
21:50can come back like I've been I've been
21:51caught up in conspiracies that I was
21:53fortunate fortunate to not actually have
21:56done anything but people trying to get
21:58rid of me with you know make up these
22:00stories in the administration but
22:01initially believe them because of the
22:03ranking in prison but but also you know
22:08begins to understand about myself as a
22:10human being is that you can resolve
22:13conflict if you are compassionate and
22:17thoughtful person and ultimately really
22:21what it came down to is both people want
22:23to walk away with a sensory
22:24but and the thing is in prison the only
22:27thing that they have been taught we had
22:29been taught to respect was violence but
22:32we hadn't been taught of alternative way
22:33to live our lives and that can still
22:36allow us to walk away you know after a
22:39conflict with our dignity in second and
22:41as I began to discover these things
22:42through reading and a self-examination
22:46it made it easier for me to kind of
22:48resolve some conflicts and a non-violent
22:51way and in a way that actually allowed
22:52for personal growth on my behalf would
22:55also allow for growth on other people's
22:57being and how do people react when you
23:00because they're expecting you to you
23:04know that guy's got to go or whatever
23:06and you go in and you resolve it and let
23:10them go with their respect like we're
23:14people like what was that are like how
23:15did it like how did it play out did you
23:17have to then go like send a message
23:20after the fact that how'd you manage
23:21that so because I had proven that I
23:26would go to the extremes to survive and
23:29there it was more a matter of being a
23:32because you know prison people are
23:35always right so you're like oh yeah the
23:39problem was resolving then you next
23:41thing you know he's thanked you in the
23:42shower right so there's a version of
23:47that in business but it's not sour
23:52segments of the corporation it's like a
23:53business matter how they get shanked in
23:55the shower but that became I mean like
24:01that you know the integrity and you know
24:04being an honorable about my word was
24:06like really you know of high value in
24:10that environment because they knew it
24:11wasn't a matter of just me being fearful
24:13so you know do whatever retaliated
24:16whatever case maybe it was just I saw a
24:18better way and I saw a different way and
24:20ultimately you know if you kind of think
24:22of it like this like you know it's the
24:23reason that most male lions don't you
24:28know and happy gonna have the same space
24:31because they know when that battle
24:33occurs that you know nobody's walking
24:35right and so but but you know it image
24:40is translated to me being out of prison
24:42because there you know my friends are
24:44still in prison and I have like some of
24:45my best mentors are serving life
24:48sentences and never go home they've been
24:50in there for 30 or 40 years and I you
24:53know I honor my word that I've told them
24:56from the moment you know I had the
24:58awakening and so you know I still reach
25:00out to them I still and sure that
25:02they're you know whatever I can do to
25:04you know be there for me that's still
25:06important to me so when you resolve a
25:09conflict and you say look here's what I
25:11need you to do and I'm gonna make sure
25:13that I always have your back that
25:15extended even when you left prison
25:17definitely Wow yeah and then you know
25:21you talked about and I know about the
25:25things that you read that influenced you
25:27and you know one of the remarkable
25:29things about your story is just how much
25:32you read and like the variety of what
25:34you read so tell us a little bit about
25:36like you know what you got started with
25:39and then where it went over time and
25:42then what really affected your thinking
25:44and caused you to kind of move into you
25:48know away from the pure violence to a
25:50different way of thinking about it yeah
25:52so the the first book I read that really
25:59got me excited about reading was
26:01actually written by another guy who
26:03locked in a cell across from me and so
26:06he would he would write these
26:07fascinating stories about neighborhood
26:10he grew up in in Detroit and they would
26:12be like you know 60 70 pages of folded
26:15paper and I was just like read these
26:16stories and he wasn't he wasn't a great
26:20writer but he was a great storyteller
26:21and one day I thought I ready I wrote
26:25like four or five then I got done
26:26reading them he was like you know you
26:28want something else to read to go to the
26:29library and check out Donald Goines I
26:32had never heard of heard of Donald
26:34Goines up to this point and so I went to
26:37and they had a specific process for
26:39actually checking out Donald Goines
26:41books like you couldn't just go in and
26:42check it out the regular way you had to
26:43fill out was part of disbursement forms
26:46and sure that you returned a book
26:47otherwise they would take the money also
26:49account for the cost of the book of the
26:51these books was like extremely popular
26:52in prison you check out a gym cons but
26:56yeah and so I started I went over there
27:07I read a book and and they had them
27:09actually in one section of the library
27:12they had like all these black writers
27:15that I had never heard of like all the
27:16Harlem Renaissance and you know Langston
27:19Hughes and and and you know Claude McKay
27:22and Ralph Ellison and then they had like
27:24a bunch of African history books that
27:27you know I had never encountered great
27:28me in a color but J Rogers which is one
27:31of one of my favorites and so I
27:34exhausted Donald when he wrote probably
27:36like thirteen books or so and I
27:39literally read all of them they they're
27:40like really quick reads so they're like
27:42you know a hundred and forty pages but
27:44it's type of book that you read and a
27:46few hours a few reader so I exhausted it
27:48is like you know his catalogue really
27:52quickly and I just grew interested in
27:55other books that I saw in there and I
27:57ended up getting introduced to Malcolm
27:59X's autobiography and that book became
28:03probably the most pivotal book and in my
28:07you remember the cartoons like me you
28:09have like the the bad ain't that the bad
28:12little devil on one shoulder and like
28:14the little angel another soda so that
28:16Malcolm's book became like that to me
28:18right so he was an address or right it
28:22was kind of like the person saying you
28:24know brother your life is redeemable you
28:26can do something with yourself you know
28:28read a study but then I had you know the
28:31reality of prison life like you know you
28:33need to shank dude because you owe you
28:35$3 it's kind of like you know which one
28:38of these cats I'm gonna listen to right
28:40yeah so it took me a long time to listen
28:43to Malcolm so he was talking to me all
28:46but our ended up reading Malcolm
28:49multiple times and what I found is that
28:53you know obviously you know the way that
28:55Malcolm is portrayed is you know the
28:57black now seduced the angry black man
28:58and what's often overlooked
29:01is helpful finally intelligent he was
29:05how well-read he was and the things that
29:09he read and so I started going back he
29:11will be discussing books that he read
29:13you know everybody ready so that's that
29:15was the start of it right so I got off
29:19into reading political science and in
29:21philosophy which originally I thought
29:23philosophy was like the boyish stuff in
29:25the world and then I organized a right
29:29yeah so I got started it's like that so
29:32much right so I was I was reading the
29:37came out of grey one day and I was like
29:39this would be like so much doper and
29:41glork arms names like tie wrong this is
29:44like a basement but that's how I had to
29:49read it to really relate and connect to
29:50it and I realized I was like like these
29:53stories were relevant to the world of
29:56the living but also begin to understand
29:58the world in a vastly different way and
30:01you know that led to me getting off to
30:02Eastern philosophy and theology and you
30:06know and I went through all these
30:07different iterations of personal growth
30:10but it started with just being
30:12inquisitive and want to know more about
30:14the world and how it operated because
30:15what I what I knew inherently was that I
30:20was more to my number and how do you
30:25know that like because it seems like
30:26guys in in prison don't know that but I
30:30knew it because I knew the difference
30:32between how I felt when I was doing
30:34something bad and how I felt when I was
30:36doing something good and doing something
30:40good felt natural to me you know doing
30:44the wrong thing felt like survival like
30:48I have a necessity and so because I knew
30:52that I knew that it was important for me
30:54to figure it out I didn't know how I was
30:57going to figure it out or what was going
30:58to be that ultimate prompt so getting me
31:00to that next phase but I never stopped
31:03reading I never stopped examining and
31:04challenging myself even when I was in
31:07the midst of so much volatility and
31:10turmoil yeah that's really interesting
31:15when you came out of prison well first
31:20let me just ask like what was that like
31:24nineteen years like you're living in
31:26like literally the jungle and then I'll
31:28ascend you're on the outside and and you
31:30don't have all those dynamics so it's
31:37the equivalent of what I say it's like
31:41walking into a pisode of the Jetsons
31:45absolutely what my life was like right
31:47so I mean it was like Skype him back on
31:50the Jetsons back then I wasn't I would
31:52even up on it but that's what it what it
31:56was like it was like I walked out of
31:58prison into a vastly different world
32:02than I left I was mind-blowing that at
32:06you know the technological advancements
32:09extremely curious I was fortunate that
32:14you know I had a partner in Ebony who
32:16sitting in the front who would send me
32:19like whatever I request like I was just
32:21curious about this Twitter thing and
32:23it's you know it's this Facebook like
32:25his he's wild names looks like we came
32:27up with these names but my curiosity
32:34wouldn't allow me to be complacent with
32:39where I had been stopped at in the world
32:42because there is an element of Arrested
32:44Development that takes place when you're
32:46incarcerated cuz we don't you don't have
32:48access to everything that's happening in
32:49society and so I remember one of one of
32:55me and his biggest arguments it was like
32:59it was little like an argument like
33:00every day like the first three days I
33:02got out I didn't know the difference
33:04between Word documents and her Internet
33:13so literally every time I would be
33:17working in the document and I got ready
33:20I would freeze up because I had heard
33:24about like viruses and I'm like if I
33:28it's gonna like get a competitive virus
33:31and so it was it was it was a major
33:34major learning process I mean you know
33:37when I when I'm with the prison we had
33:39pagers you know yeah you young people
33:42that's these little things that you can
33:43like get numbers through I mean cell
33:48phones was like what even cell I did
33:50mobile phones they're like it's big and
33:52came in like a bag you're trying to be
33:56at the club looking cool with that bag
33:57and the guys home so when I came out and
34:02you know I was so ambitious though right
34:05so I told I told everything I was like
34:07you know I want to answer it that's like
34:10I saw just like the fanciest touch
34:12screen because that's the only
34:13commercial I saw and she was like no I
34:17think you should just start off with
34:19this little blackberry but I got out of
34:22here and I was so fascinated by
34:25technology and how it was moving the
34:27world but also how it was connecting
34:30people and he's really nuanced ways and
34:35even today sometime I think I have a
34:37different appreciation from people who
34:40actually grew up alongside it because
34:43the way that I see the ability to
34:45connect in real time with real people I
34:48mean I met you guys like to say there
34:54was interested I like to set up a
34:56Facebook page the first day I got out
34:57and I did like lit up I set up a
35:01Facebook page and I also got the first
35:05paying gig it wasn't like a real job
35:08like literally in a matter of weeks
35:10because I got out and I made a post and
35:12said I wanted to review music by local
35:16artists yeah just in part of it was I
35:18just you know I missed out on so much
35:20music we didn't have mp3's anything like
35:22that in there and so once they stop
35:25selling cassettes for years we couldn't
35:27get your consistency
35:31yeah like literally like we was
35:32listening to cassettes like all the way
35:34till I came home which was 2010 so you
35:37can tell how backwards that is they're
35:43yes that's right so so I so I wanted to
35:48get caught up on music and I really just
35:49wanted to see what the music scene was
35:51about a number of the music influenced
35:53and so I made this post in one of the
35:55local newspapers were like hey could you
35:57write music reviews for us and I was
36:00like you know sure and and that actually
36:02led to me writing for feature-length
36:04stories and ended up dominating like the
36:06Arts and Culture pay page and so they
36:08couldn't afford to pay me anymore so but
36:12technology is just it's mesmerizing to
36:16me and and but it's also frightening
36:20so it's frightened in a sense that you
36:22know I went to prison I had an advantage
36:27that a lot of guys in prison don't have
36:28I was literate you know I could read the
36:34average reading grade level in prisoners
36:36third grade and there's no pressure to
36:42get an education if you think you're not
36:45getting out till 20 years down the line
36:47and so we have this you know now the war
36:51on drugs is really coming back to you
36:54know bite us in the ass because people
36:56have to look at gas who were sentenced
36:58you know 15 20 30 years ago
37:01and now they're on their way home and
37:03they've missed this tremendous leap in
37:07technology and sort of things that
37:09that's frightening to me is that we
37:13haven't done anything about it like we
37:15haven't had the courage or the fortitude
37:18to just stop for a moment and say what
37:22does that look like for somebody coming
37:23out on the other side and when you
37:26really look at it you realize they don't
37:28stand a chance in hell of surviving
37:31unless we act now and do something now
37:34so my interest in the space is you know
37:38I realized how important it is for the
37:41guys that I left behind
37:42the literate and it comes to technology
37:44you know so you know I try to share
37:47information with them and talk to them
37:49about you know what it's like to set up
37:50an email like nobody taught me that
37:52before I got out you know I figured a
37:54lot of these things out on my own but
37:57again being illiterate that put me in a
37:59position to where I can actually figure
38:02it out on my own and I mean you can't
38:05you can't even put out an application
38:06these days without having an email so if
38:10you don't know how to function in this
38:12modern world you know the likelihood of
38:14you going back to prison is extreme yeah
38:16yeah a lot of people don't know but in
38:18prison you don't have access to
38:21technology or even regular email they've
38:25got a prison system yes so and that that
38:30system is kind of modern right so right
38:32before I got out of prison they started
38:35this thing called jpay and it's a system
38:40that allows you to communicate with men
38:42and women incarcerated but you have to
38:45reach out to them first they can't just
38:47like you know be like hey I wanna get in
38:48touch with my cousin let me just email
38:50them but once you reach out to him it
38:54costs 15 cent to exchange what's
38:58basically an email so I put money on my
39:03phone which was I sent my phone without
39:05you as my mobile my mobile device and
39:08that's how I communicate with my friends
39:10inside so when I can text you or email
39:14you free all day you can't email
39:16somebody who doesn't you know 15 centers
39:21are hourly wage in prison yeah you know
39:24so literally you're talking about an
39:27hourly wage to send an email so I'm
39:31quite sure nobody here would like to
39:32send an email for their hourly wage
39:35imagines a little bit more than 15
39:37sitting up there but
39:39yeah yeah a little bit yeah so that's
39:44that so that and that that way of
39:46communicating that was kind of like the
39:50first formal technology inside prison
39:53but it's entered in a very exploitive
39:55you know an insensitive way and that
39:59kind of you know the prison system
40:01itself and and I think that you know now
40:05it's become a bipartisan issue that
40:07while we put too many people in prison
40:09and and we got to do something about
40:11that but talk a little bit about because
40:13it's a it's a system that itself makes
40:18money by failing and then follows you
40:22once you leave prison so it's not like I
40:25did the crime now I have to do the time
40:26like the time doesn't end because you
40:28come out and you still can't vote
40:31most places still won't hire you talk
40:34about this system and you know when you
40:40think about like how it needs to be
40:42reformed to give people a chance and
40:44also like just from people who you know
40:48who don't even care about anybody but
40:50like don't like wasting money like it's
40:52bad on that front - yeah I often say
40:56that one of the greatest and the longest
40:59enduring marketing campaigns was the
41:02fallacy of the war on drugs that
41:05campaign we bought a hook line & sinker
41:08and it led to devastating consequences
41:11which the taxpayer a lot of drugs yes
41:13the love drugs which taxpayers are
41:16footing the bill for the 1994 crime bill
41:21devastating consequences record leaps in
41:25terms of prison population and when you
41:29really step back from the marketing that
41:31was done and then you can get that out
41:32of your head this this idea of
41:34punishment it's completely absurd
41:38because it's a proven fact that hurt
41:40people hurt people and when you think
41:44about two wrongs don't make a right to
41:46all gonna make a right so the punitive
41:47nature of locking people up and throw
41:51politicians sold American public on that
41:54but what they didn't with a didn't tell
41:56American public is that ninety percent
41:58of the men and women who are
42:00incarcerated but at some point return to
42:02society and so when you think about the
42:06barbaric mentality to punish people over
42:09and over and over and over again and
42:10then say hey it's time for you to come
42:14home and be free that's not healthy for
42:17society that's not making society safe
42:19for anybody it's not smarter you know
42:23and so when where we are today is that
42:28the financial cost of that it's starting
42:31to be filled and so both parties are
42:34finally a grand for whatever their
42:37motives are to agree that we have to do
42:40something you know about it and and just
42:43to kind of illustrate what that looks
42:45like when I was in prison I started
42:48writing I wrote in and published along
42:52with everything my first novel
42:55so we scrapped up our little funds and
42:58and and probably invested about three
43:00thousand dollars to buy a thousand
43:04copies of the book you know so he's
43:06basically paying two dollars a book
43:08something for 15 or whatever the case
43:10might be when I when I when we did that
43:13we was going through the process of
43:14designing the cover and the member-owned
43:17person immediately assumed that I had
43:19got some type of book deal and so they
43:22sent that to the state attorney and they
43:27sued me for the cost of my incarceration
43:30and basically what they did is they
43:33tally yeah that's a new thing
43:39yeah so that's how you basically pay for
43:42your groceries right you have money
43:43they'll see you for that yeah but they
43:45pay they itemize how much it costs per
43:48day and a vary based on security level
43:51the higher security level of the higher
43:54the cost and so when you when you really
43:56think about you know at that time I had
43:59we got and I got sued I had about 17
44:02years and they estimated the cost of my
44:04to be like a million dollars now imagine
44:09how many different scholarships and
44:12different people can put the school in
44:14that timeframe and and the disincentive
44:18for not going back to prison because if
44:21you go out and succeed you got to give
44:23them your first million dollars yeah
44:26well fortunately for me I knew enough
44:28about the law that I knew contracts were
44:31legally binding so I wrote a contract to
44:34myself saying I would only accept ten
44:37percent of the profit once the company
44:39recouped its production across and so
44:41they went from suing me for ninety
44:43percent of all profits to ninety percent
44:52so you know I think a lot of people
44:55assume well prison is prison and you
44:59know like you can't really design a
45:03better prison that has kind of a better
45:07outcome but you know now since you've
45:09been out you've actually been invited to
45:13prisons in other countries and tell us
45:15about kind of what you found in Germany
45:18and whatnot so in June of last year I
45:22was I was given a wonderful wonderful
45:23opportunity to travel to Germany to do
45:29research on their prison system and
45:32given Germany's you know horrific past I
45:39didn't know what quite what to expect we
45:44and it literally was mind-blowing how
45:48different their prison model is compared
45:52to our present model so when it started
45:55off at the common ground that we all
45:57have which is our humanity they don't
46:01believe in throwing people away they
46:04don't believe that the more you
46:07mistreated person the better that person
46:08will act so from the very beginning from
46:11the very time a person enters their
46:13system they're working on how to
46:16resocialize them back to society
46:19they have stuff that are actually not
46:21privileges but part of their
46:23constitution like you have to be able to
46:25have conjugal visits with your family if
46:27you have a family you have to be able to
46:30go back into the community and work even
46:32while you incarcerate it you know it's
46:36not a Tory that you actually get
46:39furloughs and you can actually leave the
46:42prison even if you're serving a long
46:44term sentence they don't have life
46:47sentence at all they have what's called
46:50a life long sentence and basically what
46:53that is is the longest part of a service
46:55like 15 years and if they didn't excuse
46:59me if they didn't feel like you were
47:00ready for society they would put you in
47:03another part of the prison that really
47:05isn't a prison it's kind of like a
47:07transitional housing type situation but
47:11the thing that struck me most was I was
47:15talking to one of the wardens there and
47:18she asked about my time in solitary
47:20confinement and when I told her that I
47:24served a total of seven and a half years
47:27and so I would say you can find that she
47:30began to weep the German prison warden
47:35yeah make sure you got the story yeah
47:40and what she said to me is that we would
47:45never do that it's one of our citizens
47:48and it it resonated with me in a way
47:54that made me think about how do we shift
48:01toward the compassionate empathy that
48:06Germany with this deep-rooted history
48:08whose dark history that they've
48:11surpassed us in yeah and it's just one
48:15of the things you pointed out to me is
48:17that the US prison system the incentive
48:21is for you to go back to jail once you
48:24come out and why don't you talk about
48:29the prison system is the only big
48:33that's the C's with a 70% failure rate
48:38like because they get paid by prisoner
48:42they get paid by prison not on outcomes
48:44not on outcomes so 70 percent recidivism
48:48rate means 70% failure I'm quite sure
48:53none of y'all would like be CEOs if
48:56y'all have a 70 percent failure rate but
48:59that's the standard that we've allowed
49:01to beat and you know the norm in this
49:03country that comparison I think Germany
49:08has maybe he's telling me about the
49:12Germany's turn I was like wow I wonder
49:13what their recidivism rate is 35 percent
49:17so like you you think oh it's a prisoner
49:20like that's a bad guy he went to jail
49:23he's going back to jail doesn't matter
49:26what you do in prison not true yeah like
49:29you didn't get literally 70 percent to
49:3235 percent but there's the financial
49:35incentive is to do the opposite if you
49:37are privately owned prison or even a
49:40government on film yeah so really really
49:45tragic and amazing but oh sorry that was
49:53you leave me there's so many things
49:56wrong with that it's incredible but when
49:58you think about what it takes to make to
50:03change the way prison works you know how
50:07much of it is just a philosophy change
50:09and a culture change among and how they
50:14run it versus like it's underfunded or
50:17like how did how do you think about that
50:19I think there's a couple of things that
50:24has to happen and some of them are
50:26happening the first is that we have to
50:30have transparency you know when you
50:33think about last year President Barack
50:36Obama went into a prison the first
50:41president to go inside a prison of
50:44prison in history right now we have over
50:482 million people who are incarcerated
50:50another fad of six million who have
50:53felonies or who are on some form of you
50:57know probation or parole and to think
51:00that there's that larger segment of
51:03society and most of people in society to
51:07have our clueless about what happens in
51:08there well it's a segment that the
51:10government is most directly responsible
51:11for right most directly responsible for
51:14but there's also also responsibility
51:17that we have because you know men and
51:22women are coming home every day and
51:24they're gonna be your neighbors maybe
51:27not so our neighbors I take a little
51:30it's like I'm taking you got a house
51:42that being his house so I'm breaking
51:44things up a little bit I'm disrupting
51:46this thing here but but I mean in all
51:51seriousness you know these men and women
51:54are come home and so there there there
51:57are responsibilities as well and I think
51:59our biggest responsibility is to get in
52:02close proximity to the issue it's not a
52:07person in this room who project doesn't
52:08have a family member with some type of
52:11mental illness and they're probably in a
52:14treatment center they're getting
52:16whatever is psychological help that they
52:18need when you're poor your treatment is
52:21prison we've allowed that to happen on
52:26our watch drugs you know you think about
52:31the drug laws who does it apply to you
52:35know we've allowed that to if you poor
52:37black brown or you know grow up in a
52:41you're rich people don't go to prison
52:43for justice right and so when you when
52:46you think about all these different ways
52:48that we're allowing us to just go
52:50unchecked and we're not paying attention
52:52and horrific things happen
52:55don't pay attention the things that I
52:57experienced and witnessed in solitary
53:00confinement it's part of what fuels my
53:03work today you know this is this work
53:06that I do is so much bigger than me it's
53:08so much more important than my personal
53:11success you know these are real lives
53:14you know I was I was in an environment
53:16that would horrify most people not being
53:21in there just one day and to see the
53:24complete and absolute abuse that's you
53:27know poured onto the most vulnerable
53:29people in society and so we don't talk
53:33about that you know we don't pay
53:35attention to it because it's easy to
53:36ignore until it happens to you and and
53:41it can happen to you you know it can
53:43happen and so I think in order for us to
53:47get you know to that next level of how
53:50do we tear the system down like you
53:54really have to look at it first you have
53:55to be honest about it you have to be
53:57transparent but you also have to
53:59humanize it you know you have to
54:01understand that you know politicians
54:03play word games you know they'll be like
54:05hey we're gonna let all the nonviolent
54:07offenders out and we'll keep the violent
54:09fenders in but let's just have a real
54:12conversation in the real conversation is
54:14most people who are nonviolent offenders
54:16if you saw drugs you've had to be
54:19fighting at some point to protect your
54:20interest just didn't get caught with
54:22violent crime and so that's not the
54:25issue like that's the that's the
54:26superficial when you're looking at say
54:29yeah that's how you're mark hitting
54:30right that's how you market so it's part
54:32of the marketing campaign and so what we
54:33really have to think about is that 90%
54:36which represents every body violent
54:40nonviolent and those in between and you
54:44know again we have to think about do we
54:46want to continue to throw people away or
54:49do we want to be you know what most of
54:52us you know the core of our principles
54:54you know most people have some type of
54:57religious philosophy spiritual whatever
55:01whatever that is and redemption is the
55:05cornerstone of that if you look at
55:07religious philosophy in the world
55:10redemption and second chances are the
55:13building blocks of those spiritual
55:14institutions yet we have been unwilling
55:18to live our lives in the way that allow
55:20for men and women to get a second chance
![How To Succeed As A NEW & YOUNG Realtor [Deals Every Month + Luxury Listings]](/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FrtrRghgTayc%2Fhqdefault.jpg&w=3840&q=75)
