00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6nz podcast
00:02I'm sonal today we're kicking off our
00:05new series on new mediums storytelling
00:07with the conversation about VR AR that's
00:09virtual reality and augmented reality
00:11and beyond and what does it mean when
00:14the celluloid that we're now working
00:16with is actually the human experience
00:19joining us to have this conversation we
00:21have within co-founder and filmmaker
00:23Chris milk big screen founder and CEO
00:26darshan Shanker and we have Lytro CEO
00:29Jason Rosenthal in conversation with a
00:3216 ZZZ Kyle Russell in a conversation
00:35that was recorded at our inaugural a six
00:36NZ summit in this conversation they
00:38cover everything from the challenges and
00:40potential of these new technologies to
00:42the emotional power and new medium
00:43affords why are we excited about putting
00:46big goggle style computers on our faces
00:49to understand a 16z spective I think
00:52it's valuable to define terms I don't
00:54want to assume anyone in the room has
00:55played with every gadget like I have so
00:58the big buckets to think about in terms
01:01of the emerging competing paradigms
01:02we're gonna be talking about today are
01:03augmented reality which lets you see the
01:06world differently and virtual reality
01:08which lets you see a different world
01:10the former gives you superpowers you're
01:14never gonna go to an event like this and
01:15meet someone where you pretty sure
01:17you've seen them before but you don't
01:19remember their name you're never gonna
01:20have that awkward exchange because their
01:22LinkedIn profile is gonna be floating
01:24above their head once you've got you
01:26know glasses sized a our headsets
01:29virtual reality on the other hand gives
01:31you true telepresence you're gonna be
01:33able to work and play from what feels
01:35like the same environment but from any
01:36distance it also lets you put yourself
01:40into more directly so than any other
01:43previous medium into the shoes of
01:44someone else you get to truly see the
01:46world from someone else's perspective
01:47and so I'm joined today by three amazing
01:50entrepreneurs who are helping to make
01:51those things reality to start though I
01:55kind of want to do a little bit of level
01:57setting there Sean you're a technical
01:59founder you spend a lot of last year
02:01building big screen yourself why did now
02:04feel like the appropriate time to jump
02:05into VR as an ecosystem well in 2015 it
02:09actually wasn't certain that now was the
02:11right time though that was a big
02:13question was how good were consumer
02:15headsets going to be how many people
02:16would buy them would there be a real
02:18market for it and now is the right time
02:20because finally after years of
02:22development both on the hardware and
02:24software side there's actually
02:26high-quality consumer VR headsets that
02:28are out there headsets that don't
02:30actually make people sick at this point
02:32it's the software that's making people
02:34sick not the actual hardware itself so a
02:37lot of those like low kind of low level
02:39blocks are just good enough that we can
02:42start building great products great
02:44companies that just weren't really
02:46possible before just a year or two ago
02:47right and so Chris within is already one
02:51of the you know main distribution
02:52platforms that our colleagues down in
02:55Hollywood are using to reach people with
02:57the VR content that they're producing
02:58how was Hollywood thinking about the
03:00space how are they thinking about
03:01investments that they're making their
03:03expectations around what success looks
03:05like given where the ecosystem is today
03:08yeah how are they thinking about it well
03:10down in Hollywood they I it worse we're
03:16starting to see a shift from VR pieces
03:21that are exclusively funded by marketing
03:23budgets because that's all there was to
03:24fund them with and the last year two
03:27more of the forward-thinking
03:29studios actually funding content for the
03:32purpose of monetizing it you see just I
03:37think last week the really the first the
03:40first example of this which is Fox's the
03:43Martian VR experience just sort of
03:47cinematic VR sort of a game and it's
03:51priced at I think 1995 right and we'll
03:55see how it does but that you know that
03:58these are businesses that are used to
04:00making content that cost a lot of money
04:03and then selling it and making their
04:05money back that's not entirely possible
04:08with the current addressable market I
04:10think in virtual realities when you're
04:12spending millions of dollars on on a
04:14piece of content and so but the studio's
04:18realized that they need to start
04:21exploring to be in a position that they
04:24really refined high-quality content when
04:26they addressable market is actually
04:28there to follow up a little bit when I
04:30think about my media diet it's heavily
04:33kind of bifurcated between like the
04:34blockbusters I go to every couple months
04:36in theaters and binging via Netflix HBO
04:39now Hulu you talked about a twenty
04:42dollar kind of something that's
04:44associated with a blockbuster movie kind
04:46of investment in that app in terms of
04:48like my buying behavior the thing is you
04:51could have all the money in the world
04:52you could not start Netflix of the art
04:54today because there's no back catalog to
04:56license every every you know Netflix
04:59starts then they they license 100
05:01something years of cinema and television
05:04and and they and they have a catalog
05:07gotta pay for it access that catalog
05:09that catalog doesn't exist in virtual
05:12reality everything that you're watching
05:14or experiencing is being built currently
05:17speaking of which Jason at electro
05:19you're building kind of the next
05:20generation of cameras that are gonna be
05:22used produced as high-end cinematic
05:24storytelling based content however how's
05:27the experience of VR as a cinematic
05:30medium going to evolve over the next few
05:31years well I think I think that's one
05:34most exciting things about it I think
05:36that if you look at one of the things
05:38that's super interesting about VR is its
05:40kind of the first medium media where the
05:44format's are in society defined and
05:46locked in from the very beginning
05:48there's lots and lots of experimentation
05:50it's kind of the first the first way the
05:53people in in Iraq sort of natively with
05:55the world around them they know but in a
05:58completely virtual environment but if
06:00you had to commit to a most probable
06:02future path how are you kind of
06:04envisioning things are gonna go yeah I
06:05think it's gonna I think it's gonna look
06:07like a lot of other forms that we've
06:10seen right there's gonna be narrative
06:12forms of VR there's gonna be inherently
06:14game-like experiences there's going to
06:16be live live events and we are now and I
06:20think you know Chris's and darshan did
06:23an amazing jobs of running different
06:25experiments in this nobody yet quite
06:28knows what's going to work so everybody
06:30is trying to iterate to the first word
06:32in the product market that's very
06:34and so you know in order to make VR
06:38headsets you know it provided a killer
06:39app we're excited for gaming we're
06:41excited for Hollywood to produce content
06:43where the entertainment value is just so
06:45high compared to where you get from
06:47classic cinema that you know kind of
06:48draws people to the platforms so I think
06:52I think if you look at any new medium
06:54right be it the internet or mobile games
06:57or what have you it's never been the
07:00companies that were dominant in the last
07:02form of entertainment or media that have
07:05been become the leaders in the next form
07:07and I think for sure that's gonna happen
07:08here I think Hollywood has some
07:10interesting assets and that they've got
07:12you know known @pe which people love and
07:16so I think there will be great VR
07:17experiences create around Star Wars and
07:19Harry Potter and other things but it's
07:21not going to be those companies that own
07:23that I penis early doing that got it and
07:26where I was going with that though was
07:29you know this is all around kind of
07:31industries producing content however you
07:33know you look at the web you look at
07:35mobile kind of previous computing
07:37platforms social media became dominant
07:40very quickly you know power of network
07:42affects people like to communicate with
07:44their friends like to share things about
07:46their lives darshan how do you think
07:50self-expression is going to work in VR
07:52like are we going to be just sharing in
07:54the same way that we share photos and
07:56videos captured from our phones Dave you
07:58know flat media we're just going to be
07:59doing that with 360 videos as our phones
08:01get that capability or are there kind of
08:03other avenues of self-expression that VR
08:05opens up it's hard to say probably all
08:09in a sense that 360 content once it
08:13becomes extremely easy to film extremely
08:14easy to capture for every consumer the
08:17way we capture with our phones any sort
08:19of photos that becomes really easy to
08:20share that becomes but first you have to
08:23make it really easy to capture make it
08:25really easy to distribute you have to
08:26solve some of those low lying problems
08:28first but that whole range like for big
08:31screen it's a lot more about sharing
08:32your your 2d content so you might be
08:34working on something and you might be
08:35able to share it with a friend it
08:36doesn't require 360 capture technology
08:38to to catch up and go mainstream but in
08:42terms of like user-generated content
08:43allowing people to create kind of like
08:45minecraft has accomplished in the past
08:46decade allowing people to create their
08:48own virtual worlds and explore it with
08:50their friends we might be a little early
08:51for that in terms of user generated
08:53social media type functionality we again
08:56might be too early for that it's hard to
08:58predict when it'll be ready for that but
09:02if you look at the history of the
09:04internet the web and mobile a lot of
09:07bundling was occurring in the early days
09:08where it wasn't completely user
09:11generated one of the Geocities super
09:13early on it was a lot of it was AOL it
09:15was kind of bundled news before
09:17everybody could make their own website
09:18it was few it was like major news
09:22websites that would that you would visit
09:23first before you started making your
09:25before WordPress or something that's so
09:27hard to say it might be a little early
09:29but even today you can create some
09:31pretty cool stuff and share with your
09:32friends got it and so one of the common
09:37concerns that I hear a lot when I'm
09:39trying to you know talk about how
09:41amazing VR is gonna be as it takes off
09:43is yeah but isn't it really isolating
09:45you know you're wearing something that's
09:47literally in case of VRA are maybe not
09:50so much but with VR in particular you're
09:52worried something that's literally
09:53blocking your view of the rest of the
09:54world around you you know and so people
09:56have you know understandable concerns
09:57like are we all going to be in our own
09:59kind of escapist fantasy is not
10:00interacting with each other from a
10:03storytellers perspective you know cinema
10:06we go to the movie theater together we
10:08sit on the couch and watch Netflix or
10:10catch up on Game of Thrones with our
10:12friends Jason how do you think about
10:16cinematic and social kind of coalescing
10:20in VR I mean to me I think that the I
10:23think the bowl case is that VR has the
10:25potential to be the inherently most
10:27social medium and of any form of
10:29technology that we've seen so far even
10:31with the goggles because I think imagine
10:33you know if you had the power to instead
10:35of just going to the movies with your
10:37friends like what if you could actually
10:38be in the movies with your friends and
10:40right you could each give each other you
10:42know unique superpowers and interact
10:44within a virtual environment and so I
10:46think that if you look at where we are
10:47and we sort of think that media is
10:50social today right because we can watch
10:52an NBA game or a football game and
10:55have a tweet stream either you know on
10:57the side of it or on our phones but
10:58imagine if you could actually be
11:00immersed in the whole experience and
11:02rather than you know needing a
11:03text-based metadata set of social
11:06interactions if you could be physically
11:08immersed in the environment and I think
11:10actually you know you like what darshan
11:12is doing with big screen right I mean
11:14you can explain your product rather than
11:16me but it is like it is the most fun way
11:18to play video games with your friends
11:20doing it in the our environment versus
11:23yeah and so really quickly because I
11:25want to keep on the social aspect a
11:27little bit are trying could you maybe
11:28explain what big screen does for its
11:30users sure so big screen puts you into a
11:32virtual world you can invite your
11:33friends or your colleagues into it
11:34you'll see your computer in front of you
11:37all of your existing apps whether it's
11:38video games or Netflix or whatever you
11:41have on your computer screen and when
11:42you look over you'll see your your
11:44friends they could be thousands of miles
11:45but you'll see them you'll see an avatar
11:48of them it's like being in a living room
11:50or a conference room together with
11:53people that aren't there physically with
11:55you that's the the social collaborative
11:58power of VR being applied to our
12:00day-to-day lives that we already do
12:02today and so kind of expanding on that I
12:05have a recommendation for everyone in
12:06the audience of a video you should check
12:08out on YouTube later find time to search
12:11for microsoft research a research hall
12:14portation there's a demo from Microsoft
12:17research where basically they surround a
12:19room with cameras and death sensors and
12:21scan people in and are able to then kind
12:23of help work their Holograms to
12:25different environments and so you get
12:27this kind of social experience but it
12:30looks like they're in the room with you
12:31rather than making you you know put on
12:32the headset that completely blocks out
12:34the real world and so I mentioned that
12:36to transition a little bit to AR because
12:41again something that we hear a lot even
12:43from people like Tim Cook at Apple is
12:45you know they're more excited about
12:46augmented reality than virtual reality
12:48because it doesn't have that blocking
12:50out the real world you actually get to
12:51make eye contact with people without
12:53said AR is a couple years out even
12:55relative to VR in terms of difficulties
12:57around optics in terms of computer
12:58vision so as you're building virtual
13:02reality products and experiences today
13:04how are you thinking about AR what
13:06lessons that you're learning from
13:08virtual reality are going to
13:09apply to augmented reality as that you
13:11know kind of emerges maybe becomes more
13:13dominant for certain use cases what
13:15transfer is over and where do you have
13:16to start with fresh eyes I think
13:19fundamentally what you're talking about
13:20is a medium that is is is human
13:23experience like that that that that is
13:25the celluloid it is actual human
13:27experience that you perceive as human
13:29experience so they are assuming
13:30experience in the place that you are VR
13:33is human experience and any place that
13:35you could be transported and I think
13:38what you're gonna see in the in the long
13:40term especially with first reality is
13:43the sort of democratization of human
13:46experience in the same way that the
13:48internet led to the democratization of
13:49information so you can I mean it sounds
13:53like hype but right we're in the early
13:55stages of it right now where you can
13:56feel like you are anywhere and and
13:58because the tech industry we love to
14:00come up with new acronyms and more
14:02jargon to throw at people there's a
14:04couple other terms that people are you
14:06know kind of talking about a lot in the
14:07space mixed reality the idea of kind of
14:11merging virtual objects and augmented
14:14experiences together kind of a nebulous
14:16blend intel talks about yeah merged
14:21reality so virtual reality experiences
14:23where it's scanning in the room and so
14:26it you know puts a you know if I was
14:29wearing a headset it would project
14:31virtual avatars onto all of you so that
14:32I still feel like I'm kind of present
14:34here even though I'm in a virtual world
14:36do you spend much time thinking about
14:38these kinds of blended experiences or
14:42you know how do you even think about
14:43like the relative mix that makes sense
14:45to go with as you're building things I
14:48mean I think your your point is right
14:50right which is that the way it'll likely
14:52play out is it that there's gonna be a
14:54broad spectrum right from a purely
14:56synthetic virtual world like the matrix
14:59all the way up to you know the point
15:01view open whether that's all I have
15:03Facebook and LinkedIn profiles floating
15:06ah in meetings and I think that the I
15:09mean the good thing is that we're sort
15:11of in the stage of the medium now where
15:14where everybody's working on the
15:16underlying infrastructure technologies
15:18and and kind of the first
15:19experiences around those and it doesn't
15:21matter you know if it's a RV art the
15:24investments that you need to make right
15:25now and the opportunities that that
15:27creates I think are exactly the same and
15:30what will happen I think is that as both
15:32mediums mature we'll start to see them
15:35diverge and see new applications that
15:38may work better in one versus the other
15:40and and then others that work well
15:42across the right and incorporating even
15:46more mediums you know today virtual
15:48reality is kind of growing out of gaming
15:50with things like what within is working
15:53on you know film is contributing to a
15:54lot of the content that's available in
15:58terms of I guess the correct term would
16:01maybe be asymmetric experiences so
16:03people who are in virtual reality you
16:06know some of the people involved in
16:07experience with other people are on
16:08their phones also engaging with them
16:10when does it make sense to build
16:12something asymmetric and wait is it does
16:13it make sense to build something where
16:15you know it's VR AR from the outset and
16:17you don't compromise on that you know
16:20that I think that's like kind of a
16:21philosophical debate asking yeah I know
16:24and so I think that was a fun discussion
16:26so I'd love to I'd love to kind of
16:27rehash nothing maybe I mean I personally
16:30I think you should build things that are
16:33the most inclusive to the most amount of
16:35people that they can have compelling
16:36experiences with it and and when you get
16:39into the finer details it really depends
16:40on the experiences that you're building
16:41and I think that there's people are
16:44looking at this medium right now as it's
16:46either an evolution of cinema or it's an
16:47evolution of video games at first it was
16:50an evolution of video games and I think
16:51that the the reason that was was because
16:54the people making it were all video
16:56gamers it was like what Mark was talking
16:57about at the opening yesterday with the
16:59Edison thought that the phonograph would
17:02be used for sermon because that was his
17:03world that's what he thought like that
17:05was his reality and the people that we
17:07were building works reality our gamers
17:09so everything was it's gonna be about
17:11games and then slowly we started to see
17:13cinematic VR bubble up in the last few
17:15years and then it's like okay well maybe
17:17it's the evolution of movies and it's
17:19actually I don't think it's either of
17:20those because I think it's its own new
17:22media and its own right it will take
17:25things from each of them and it will
17:27evolve like what Jason was saying that
17:30that is undefined that's a really
17:32important thing to understand about this
17:33medium it makes you actually different
17:35than other mediums is if you look at
17:36cinema for instance you have the format
17:39is birthed at the at the birth of the
17:41technology you have a sequence of
17:42rectangles played one after another
17:44that's birth with the motion picture
17:46camera the motion picture projector that
17:48format does not change over the lifespan
17:50of the media the language of
17:52storytelling in the form of a feature
17:54film or television show or digital video
17:56or UGC that does evolve that does change
18:00but the format always stays the same
18:01what's different about virtual reality
18:03is the format is fluid so you and you
18:07see it changing on a bi-monthly basis
18:10where you're now able to tell a new kind
18:12of story because many actually actual
18:15format has changed to ground that a
18:17little bit what kinds of specific
18:18changes on unlocking new types of
18:20experiences like what kinds of
18:21improvements to the underlying platforms
18:24kind of drive those new capabilities
18:25well it's a it's really it's about
18:28levels of immersion and it's about your
18:30interactivity with the world around you
18:32so right now you have a real-time
18:35rendered world that does not look real
18:37that you can interact with or you have a
18:38a photographed experience that is
18:44photorealistic and the people look human
18:47and you can at the moment you can't walk
18:49around the room and what Jason is
18:52building you will be able to walk around
18:54the room and but you can't interact with
18:57the person that's been shot Brad Pitt
18:58was there he was photographed you can't
19:00walk up to Brad Pitt and start talking
19:02to me I'll talk back to you you imagine
19:04on the on the real-time renders I'd
19:06that's going to get faster you're gonna
19:08have real-time rendering humans and
19:10environments that are driven by AI that
19:12you can interact with and at each stage
19:14of this the the storytelling structure
19:17also has to completely change eventually
19:19it just all culminates to Westworld and
19:25so those of us in the room are
19:27privileged in that getting to try
19:30virtual and even some ARX virtual
19:32reality and even so may our experiences
19:33isn't completely out of reach just based
19:35on cost alone most of us can probably
19:37get access to my these headsets if we
19:39really tried and so I'd love to kind of
19:41just go through one by one
19:43what's one experience that you would
19:45recommend the device they would need and
19:47the specific experience that you think
19:48everyone should try to understand maybe
19:51a specific facet of where these spaces
19:53are going I know that's a tricky one so
19:55whoever have maybe has an answer top of
19:58mind can jump in first
20:01thank you problem actually probably say
20:05so oculus made a film called Henry and
20:09that was the first time where they have
20:12you like sit down on the floor and they
20:14have this experience that's like
20:15happening all around you and it's like
20:17an interesting storytelling experience
20:18and that was my personal first time
20:20where I had tried a what film in VR
20:24could really be like native to the art
20:27taking advantage of VR high-end VR
20:29headsets like the oculus rift that's
20:31where that's if you want to try Henry
20:32tried on the oculus rift that took
20:35advantage of being able to actually
20:37stand up walk around a little bit and to
20:39really get a sense of being in a
20:41different place with a character that
20:43actually the animated character makes
20:46eye contact with you and I've heard
20:49anecdotally people would take off the
20:50headset and they'd haven't here because
20:52it was like oh that was a cute story is
20:54a kind of a sad story
20:56that was my my first kind of WoW
20:59experience kinda if no one has one
21:04prepared yet I'll hop in with my
21:06recommendation so I think experience
21:09definitely worth trying is destinations
21:12an app from valve on the HTC vive and so
21:17what destinations does is it lets you
21:19basically upload entire environments
21:22that other people can explore and you
21:24can add things like stand at these
21:26specific points and an overlay will show
21:28up giving context about the scene you're
21:30in there's one experience where they
21:34actually took thousands of photos from a
21:36Mars rover and used what technique
21:38called photogrammetry which extracts the
21:40geometry from those photos to make a
21:41rendered scene and so you actually get
21:43to stand on Mars and so you are kind of
21:46walking around and it gives you little
21:48blips of information about oh this is
21:51the rover this is how long its mission
21:52was this is how long it took to collect
21:55and all I can think is this is the
21:57future of museums and nearer term in the
22:00further term this is the future of
22:01Education like why you know why read a
22:05textbook about you know significant
22:07moments in history when you could just
22:08kind of actually get to live it I think
22:11that that's absolutely worth a try if
22:13you can get your hands on it Chris is
22:14too modest but like if you haven't seen
22:16his film clouds over Sidra which was
22:18about the Syrian refugee crisis I think
22:20you can watch yeah right and that
22:22innovative civilian like I mean it's
22:23it's a it's it's the most human way to
22:26connect someone to what's going on in
22:29another part of the world and you you
22:31watch it and you feel like you're there
22:33and you have a level of empathy for
22:34what's going on that you just don't get
22:36from reading the newspaper or watching
22:38YouTube or anything like that I love a
22:41Perl which is you should see on a vibe
22:44which is Google what are they called
22:46story studios yeah no anyway no story
22:57it's its story something anywhere it's
23:01just a beautiful little animated story
23:02that you can lean and move around in a
23:05cannot move but you're in the front seat
23:07of a car and the whole story takes place
23:09within the framing of this car between
23:10this father and daughter and it's music
23:12driven and it's just it's really
23:14utilizing the limitations of what's
23:16possible now to to form something really
23:19beautiful and human I'll tell you just a
23:22personal story that's interesting that I
23:23haven't really shared publicly which is
23:25it's an experience that you can't
23:26actually have but I would imagine you
23:28will be able to have in the coming years
23:30the technology gets better and it's very
23:32hard to capture video in in VR right now
23:36Jason's working on you know I super
23:39robust professional version in the last
23:42three years we've had to build our own
23:44camera systems to film the things that
23:46we want to film because there's no
23:47camera the cameras didn't exist and and
23:49I I filmed something we were did so like
23:52two and a half years ago I shot this
23:55soccer game in Los Angeles and we're
23:57doing a test and I was there with with
23:59with our camera tech and I was there
24:01with my girlfriend at the time and it
24:06went onto a drive somewhere and we
24:07looked at some other footage and
24:09we're testing how close you could get in
24:11where you could put camera positions and
24:14about a year later someone found some of
24:17the footage on the drive that I had not
24:19seen and stitched it and post that
24:22moment in time I thought they're really
24:24difficult breakup with my girlfriend and
24:26they said hey you should we found this
24:28thing on the driver should watch it I
24:29put this headset on and I was standing
24:32next to myself holding the hand of I was
24:36no longer speaking to and I have never
24:40in my life experienced a more powerful
24:43piece of media than than that moment no
24:46movie no anything more powerful than any
24:49voice mail than any photograph than any
24:51video it I was I was with it was like I
24:55was you know Evan eater Scrooge and
24:57crispy Christmas past like I was
24:59standing there with my old self and I
25:01felt the presence of my old self and I
25:04felt the the emotions of myself with my
25:07girlfriend at the time and UGC is very
25:11difficult at the moment but it will be
25:13able to it will be it will transform an
25:16industry of consumers capturing memories
25:19and replaying them well well thank you
25:21for sharing that anecdote I know that
25:23that might have just brought that those
25:25memories up again and thank you all for
25:27joining to get a taste of the kinds of
25:30experiences we were talking about
25:31there's a within booth with a couple
25:33gear VR headsets up at the innovators
25:35pavilion thank you all for your time
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