00:00hi it's Chris Dixon this is the a 16z
00:02podcast I'm here with Peter Rubin from
00:04Wired magazine who has spent a lot of
00:06time studying virtual reality and
00:08augmented reality so we're gonna talk
00:09about that today one of my favorite
00:11topics so so Peter thanks for being here
00:14what what let's just like the the broad
00:16landscape like what's going on NASA's
00:18off there's obviously oculus microsoft
00:20hololens magic leap like what's your
00:22impression of what's happening well
00:23right now it seems like last year and
00:26continuing into this year it's what's
00:27interesting about it is there have
00:28always been kind of these tertiary
00:30players in the market and like smaller
00:32companies but what's happening now is
00:33the titans are kind of by proxy drawing
00:37these lines in the sand so facebook kind
00:38of sided with VR for oculus Microsoft
00:42made its bet with augmented reality and
00:43we can talk more about that difference
00:44and then Google went from kind of one
00:48mode of AR thinking with Google glass to
00:50not necessarily scrapping that but
00:53they're they're rethinking what they're
00:55doing there internally and instead you
00:56know last year there was that half a
00:58billion dollars that went to magic leap
01:00which is the kind of an AR startup based
01:02in South Florida so we don't know what
01:05Amazon is doing we know that Apple is
01:07filing some patents and hiring VR
01:10engineers so there's certainly a lot of
01:11motion in the space Sony Sony's got
01:14project Morpheus for kind of the
01:15console-specific play yeah so how do you
01:18think about VR versus they are like what
01:20are the different first of all like
01:21which do you think will happen sooner
01:25however optimistic are you buddy to one
01:27of the different use cases I was you
01:29know it's interesting I think people saw
01:31a usable case of a our first popularly
01:35speaking when Nintendo 3ds came out that
01:37was kind of a really low five version
01:41and it gave people a sense of what was
01:42possible I'm like like the the the games
01:45that came with it with the cards like
01:46yeah yeah we're really cool there was I
01:50remember and and I think this is the
01:52case with a lot of what Nintendo does
01:53developers don't necessarily take
01:56advantage it's all right so they had
01:59these cool cards that came with a 3ds
02:00that that when you look through the the
02:033d has had kind of this front-facing
02:05camera and it would bring characters to
02:07life awesome it was the 3d effect to is
02:10surprisingly yeah it was really really
02:12so I think that AR was almost in the
02:15ether just a little bit earlier and
02:17certainly you know oculus caught fire
02:20and and you know the story well and in
02:212012 so we've had a couple of years now
02:23to get used to it but after you know
02:26I've spent a lot of time you know with a
02:28bunch of different companies talking
02:29about this and thinking about this and
02:31VR is going to be well is first to
02:34market already I mean with the Samsung
02:36gear VR that came out in December we
02:38have a consumer product for sale that is
02:41a big that's a big leap leap to make and
02:45then certainly I think that more of the
02:47technical problems have been solved for
02:50virtual reality rather than augmented
02:51reality and just to well specifically I
02:54think that to me at least the big
02:55bottleneck where they are is to do it
02:58well for most applications you're gonna
02:59need rear very good machine vision right
03:01right you're gonna you don't want if you
03:03have the real world there you want to
03:05have the virtual overlay interact with
03:07the real world and to do that you have
03:08to understand the real world and and to
03:10do that my understanding for the
03:11technologists is that to do that in a
03:13very low latency kind of real-time way
03:15is far beyond the current capabilities
03:17right as VR it works basically if you've
03:20tried Crescent Bay like sure it's
03:21working right yeah it's definitely
03:22working and and certainly you know I
03:24haven't I haven't used magic leap I've
03:26used a number of different kind of not
03:29quite consumer-ready AR technologies but
03:31what I understand from people who have
03:34experienced magic leap and what they're
03:36working on there is it's gonna take half
03:40a billion dollars to make this real to
03:42realize this and so while they have kind
03:44of these prototype experiences there's
03:46so much more to do and there's so many
03:49more problems to be solved and I think
03:50you're absolutely right it's it's kind
03:52of exponentially more complex to layer
03:56artifice over the world that you
03:58actually see whereas with with VR you
04:01have kind of the luxury of being able to
04:03pre render everything that a person
04:05might see at least in a CGI scenario in
04:07a gaming scenario or something
04:08especially within that whole thing to I
04:10think is the toolchain kind of like the
04:11unity and unreal and all the different
04:14things you do to build VR it's already
04:16been built up pretty it's a pretty
04:17powerful tools for the gaming world
04:19that's all the talent and everything
04:21else yeah out of like as soon as they
04:23get excited it's you can shift it over
04:24pretty quickly oh yeah that's that's
04:26since you know it was last March that
04:28the Facebook acquisition happened but
04:30since then the quantum quantum leap that
04:34happened in oculus is all of a sudden
04:35with that backing they'd had multiple
04:37rounds of funding as you well know but
04:39after they had this vote of confidence
04:41from someone who clearly isn't going
04:43anywhere all of a sudden the talent
04:44started coming like they had this very
04:46Spartan mentality like we need 300
04:49people who are the absolute best at what
04:50they do and they just keep poaching and
04:53keep poaching and keep adding new people
04:54and just today you know we're we're
04:56recording this on a Monday and at
04:58Sundance this morning they announced
04:59that oculus story studio which is this
05:01this venture to develop CGI filmmaking
05:04and they got you they got Edward Saachi
05:07and they got sashka Unseld from Pixar so
05:11they're getting pretty incredible talent
05:13even outside the gaming space gaming was
05:15where they started and so they were able
05:16to lay a lot of groundwork and certainly
05:18with unreal and and unity streamlining
05:21that process the question now is for me
05:24at least what's gonna happen in the
05:25realm of live-action video because
05:27there's so many problems that need to be
05:28solved there I also think that appears
05:30if you think it's right my sort of
05:31framework for does VR will be more about
05:33play because it's a fully you know it's
05:36a fully invented world whether I I
05:38personally think it'll be less I think
05:39games will be big but I think it'll be a
05:41lot of like what's happening with the
05:42Hollywood stuff kind of quote
05:43experiences but but they're completely
05:45new worlds right whereas once you've
05:46introduced like once I'm looking a are
05:48I'm looking at my office like generally
05:50that is you know is is more for a work
05:53context right you're overlaying
05:54information you're you know googling
05:56magically googling everything you see
05:58right I think so that's kind of my broad
06:00no I think that's true and and certainly
06:02after after the wired story about
06:05hololens came out last week I saw a
06:07couple tweets of yours and and I think
06:09you nailed it there that um I think that
06:11debating was sort of like a fictional
06:13Twitter I think that was you a startup
06:15called Jackson right they're worse
06:17they're worse thing I have to reflect on
06:19my life there's people that debate with
06:26but I think you're right I think the
06:28enterprise applications for ARR the the
06:31kind of driving thing right now and
06:33certainly even players that aren't
06:37Google and aren't magic leap and aren't
06:39in our Microsoft recognize this you know
06:41there there are companies that their
06:44entire kind of raise on debt is is
06:47working on this instructional overlay
06:49and certainly that's what our writer
06:51Jesse hempel saw when she got hands-on
06:52with the hololens you know up a
06:54Microsoft and you're right I think
06:57absolutely that there is this there's a
07:00recreational bent to VR not which isn't
07:02to say we're not going to have
07:03productivity suites in there and you're
07:06not going to be able to teleconference
07:07and you're not going to be able to have
07:09kind of in you're going to have a
07:11virtual desktop display when when
07:14resolution catches up to this and it
07:15will be able to kind of overhaul what we
07:17think of as workspace but for the most
07:20part I think that that is a very easy
07:23divergence point of the two technologies
07:26so do we know does Microsoft it's
07:28they're gonna pursue some kind of gaming
07:30thing with it's part of their Xbox group
07:33writer it's it's hard to say because you
07:35know since a Nadella came in and took
07:37over from Ballmer I think it's possible
07:39that the original roadmap has changed
07:41and in 2012 I think there was a kind of
07:45internal roadmap that leaked and part of
07:48that was you saw people wearing these AR
07:50glasses and they they meant it to be
07:53part of the Xbox Entertainment Group
07:55I think that's changed we heard about it
07:57because when we invested in oculus
07:58whatever it was a year and a half ago we
08:00did you know we were sort of analyzing
08:02the competitors and it heard a bunch of
08:04rumors about that but had heard it was a
08:06gaming and heard it was very good by the
08:07way like the best out there yeah outside
08:10of oculus I think I think that's true I
08:12mean as different as as the two are but
08:14I think that you know I think that it
08:16may have started that way but I would
08:18imagine that with what they're doing
08:19with every device stuff and and what
08:22they're trying to do with Windows 10 I
08:23would imagine that hololens is going to
08:24be a more integral part of that than it
08:26was originally intended to be so I would
08:28I would be surprised if they weren't
08:29trying to leverage their enterprise
08:33world and then Google do you do we have
08:35any sense beyond like the the cardboard
08:37stuff and you know is there like gonna
08:39be a serious effort magic leap as far
08:40well I mean so cardboard is cardboard is
08:43the kind of lowest of the low end of the
08:45of the VR solutions but with magic leap
08:48the way they talk about it not the way
08:51Google talks about it
08:51the way magically talks about it is they
08:54see it as this magical intersection of
08:57the two and I think that we're probably
08:58an actually gonna move to this point
09:00where one device is gonna be able to
09:02handle both whether that's fully
09:03contained VR or switch you know on some
09:05continuum to to an air overlay but I
09:08think that the way I think that the two
09:11are different I mean cardboard came out
09:12of that twenty percent time thing and
09:14they handed it out to developers at i/o
09:16and they were like see what you can do
09:17and so Street View is cool and people
09:20are doing some interesting things for
09:22such a for such a kind of low processor
09:25solution but I think that what Google
09:29sees in magic leap is something that's a
09:31lot more transformative than that so
09:33what do you think so what's your
09:34prediction for the next couple of years
09:35in terms of you know oculus comes out
09:38like will it be a gaming device will you
09:42know well it's gonna be it's gonna be an
09:43entertainment device right I think we
09:45both know that and I think that while it
09:48they position themselves as gaming first
09:50I think they're they're gonna come out
09:51of the gate with a lot of non gaming
09:53entertainment things just like the
09:55Samsung gear VR had you know they they
09:58commissioned a lot of 360-degree video
10:00they commissioned a lot of other
10:02experiences and and certainly there are
10:04companies now that are that are cracking
10:07streaming VR experiences so I think that
10:09we're looking at kind of a media viewer
10:12and a streaming viewer and a gaming
10:14device so you know there are all the the
10:17developer community working in oculus
10:19even outside the kind of triple-a houses
10:21that have their secret projects the
10:23development community has been so
10:26fanatical and the pipeline is so robust
10:28that there are already so many games
10:30that you can play just for a dev kit I
10:31mean elite dangerous you played for
10:34example haven't played blaze right it's
10:35a whole weekend I have one home and it
10:39was really surprised me as an lucky sail
10:41be seen lucky said oh yeah yes
10:42phenomenal so blades were unlucky - I
10:44think you're the two best games of where
10:45on the oculus and what's surprising is
10:47they're both third-person yeah and
10:49they're not the flashiest first-person
10:51kind of now now unlikely dangerous is
10:54cool I I guess I mean so I want to
10:58hesitate here because until you have
11:00incredibly good you know like the top
11:01triple-a game designers build stuff I
11:03don't want to over generalize
11:05and like if you see the Crescent Bay
11:06demo yeah yeah like the part we're like
11:08in the street with the whole showdown
11:10that epic with the slow-motion bullets
11:12like that's when you see that you're
11:13like okay that's those are the gears I
11:14think there's a war team once you see
11:16like the pros make stuff you're like
11:18okay maybe I have to reconsider
11:19right cuz I prior to seeing that I was
11:21like first person's not gonna work as
11:22well then I saw that I'm like okay maybe
11:23now that I see the pros do it but well
11:26think that blaze rush though is a very
11:27boring game and no offense to the blaze
11:29rich guys if it's not oculus like I
11:30played it on the screen it's just like a
11:31cars it's like you're watching cars from
11:33a third-person ground track first-person
11:35is is amazing like I literally played it
11:37for six hours as weekend like the the
11:40missiles like things are blowing up
11:41anybody we have the stereo headphones
11:42and like the missiles like flying past
11:44your head and like guys are like blowing
11:46up and it's just like and it that's only
11:48one play if we get to play like it's
11:49really engaging and it there's no like
11:51nausea or anything else like weirdness
11:53well the game design question I think
11:55that if it's gonna be first-person it
11:56either has to be slowed drastically to
11:59what kind of fast which games are or you
12:01have to give the person a stable you
12:02have to give the player stable
12:03environment like a car chassis right
12:05that changes everything because all of a
12:07sudden you have this far being pretty
12:08good yeah or space like we do exactly
12:11because you're surrounded
12:13it's like good I think that we're gonna
12:17see for first-person it's gonna be a lot
12:19of exploration games I think you know
12:21Jonathan Blow who made braids has been
12:23working on this game the witness for a
12:24long time and it's this kind of very -
12:26throwback to mist and puzzle games like
12:28that but he's it was not originally
12:30meant for VR but he's working on it to
12:32play in the rift and I think that first
12:34person you're gonna need to slow things
12:35down that's what made that epic demo and
12:38crescent based so compelling as they
12:40slowed it way down it was bullet time
12:41you could kind of move through that
12:43you're at your leisure and what John
12:44Carmack has said in some tweets recently
12:47is he thinks it might be best if you
12:49just take control over yaw kind of left
12:52to right swivel away from the player not
12:55left writes with a left-to-right
12:56strafing actual movement to be more like
13:01you know Dragon's Lair game like have a
13:04few key decision points yep and and what
13:07some other people are doing is rather
13:08than letting you you know if you're
13:12back an Xbox controller you can think of
13:14it as a Playstation one if that's a
13:16preferred console is if you're using
13:17that that right thumbstick to swivel on
13:20the neck of the player some designers
13:22are using the shoulder buttons instead
13:24to click this and you'll instantaneously
13:26swivel 90 degrees and what that does is
13:28it takes the world doesn't spin around
13:30you and as much as as used to as you can
13:34be for first of two first-person
13:36experiences having the entire 360
13:39degrees sphere that you're living in
13:41move around you is it's a profoundly
13:44disorienting thing and so while I think
13:45you're right I think we're gonna have
13:47great first-person experiences they need
13:48to be in the hands of people who have
13:49done some really really deep thinking
13:52about what works and what does yeah and
13:54we mentioned Lucky's tale which is
13:56amazing and like that's one where I
13:57don't think it's publicly available
13:59right now I'm not sure it's sort of a
14:01Nintendo s like Mario world asks yes I
14:03think there may be a demo available on
14:06Samsung thing about that is like you
14:08bring out I've done this you bring non
14:09gamers over and they try it and like it
14:12has it has the kind of wonder of like
14:14the original Nintendo
14:15oh yeah that's everyone loves it it's
14:17not a gate hardcore gamer experience
14:19that was my first that was my first
14:20reaction to it as well I saw it I guess
14:22it was last year at e3 they brought it
14:24and I was like yeah a third person will
14:26see and I put it on and it takes you
14:28back it is it is as kind of cartoonishly
14:31brilliant as those early Nintendo games
14:34the first time you played Mario the
14:36difference is they've done some such
14:38good thinking about camera control and
14:40and how to route to ground a person in
14:44this game world without moving them
14:45around you can control what you see but
14:48it's done at such kind of gentle speeds
14:49that you're never gonna get on commando
14:51like they should a Nintendo should be
14:53all over this like they I don't know I
14:55mean they need something that you
14:56totally and this we've see Lucky's tale
14:58like this is how you know imagine like
15:00Super Smash Brothers and oh my god yeah
15:04I mean look Nintendo made their play
15:05with NFC you know the the near-field
15:08stuff with with amiibos which are which
15:11were kind of popular among dedicated
15:13gamers but we've seen for well over a
15:16decade now they take three or four years
15:18to move on a technology that's already
15:21changing the landscape so you know if
15:24that's the direction they go and
15:26certainly cautioned us against thinking
15:29that they're doing this I think they
15:31want to see how it plays out there so
15:33cautious about that stuff and they're so
15:34reserved that it wouldn't surprise me if
15:37they are didn't really pan out for them
15:39but yeah they've got they've got the IP
15:41to really make that worth the yeah
15:43what's so exciting to me now like
15:45actually Paul Buettner who's lucky tail
15:47he this came from him he said it's like
15:50he says it's like the beginning of film
15:51when you know the Lumiere brothers like
15:54the trains coming at them and everyone
15:55thinks it's actually coming at them or
15:57or he the example he gave us before they
15:59had the notion of an establishing shot
16:00in film you know establishing shot is
16:02like when you show the building outside
16:03and then you show before that they would
16:04if you watch like the old like Charlie
16:06Chaplin movies have like 10 minutes of
16:08just people going in and out of Grand
16:09Central Station they didn't understand
16:12like the neurosciences Mike right of how
16:14the brain interprets film and creates a
16:17reality right and I think we're at that
16:19that's what Pappas is I'm quoting Paul
16:20here but um we're at that that period
16:22now with VR right some people are just
16:24figuring out what and it's gonna be
16:26really really interesting do you know
16:27Chris milk oh yeah I was just about to
16:30yeah his stuff he's working on his
16:31fascinating and doing music videos and
16:34did you try the back thing I tried the
16:36back thing and actually you know it's
16:38funny that you say the the Lumiere
16:40brothers just one of the one of the
16:41experiences that he has at Sundance
16:43right now is this kind of abstract take
16:45on the the the the train coming the
16:48train station there's the one that
16:50freaked out all the French audiences and
16:51in like 1890s when they first saw it but
16:54we're at the dawn of this new visual
16:56grammar right filmmakers are trying to
16:58figure this out because no one's had too
17:00we've been viewing movies through a
17:01frame for so long that that we have no
17:04idea how to approach these and then be
17:05even beyond that beyond the logic of
17:08like establishing shots and like you
17:09said how people's brains interpret
17:11signals if you're in a sphere of reality
17:14and you can look anywhere and action is
17:18going to unfold quite possibly in a
17:20different zone of that screen what's
17:22going to cue you to be looking at the
17:24thing that's narrative ly most most
17:26important to the to the movie experience
17:28and you know there's some I've seen some
17:29really interesting kind of paper
17:31and thinking from some groups who are
17:33trying to at least for for rendered
17:36movies for CGI stuff trying to create
17:38almost like a new code where zones will
17:41be highlighted and little kind of very
17:43subtle shows control the attention yeah
17:45to control the attention just because we
17:47you know when you're sitting in an IMAX
17:50theater there's pretty one there's one
17:51thing you're gonna be looking at and
17:52even if you're looking at the upper left
17:54corner of the screen something needs to
17:55happen at the lower right you're gonna
17:56know about it this is very different
17:58something can happen behind you and I
17:59think that you know oculus is move to
18:02pursue directional audio was a really
18:05smart one to make it an integrated part
18:07of their consumer solution because we've
18:11got so used to putting on headphones
18:13just stereo headphones or maybe even
18:14surround sound to play games in VR but
18:17you're gonna need something that's a
18:19half turn past that you're gonna need
18:21something that's truly calibrated to a
18:23to it to that environment have you seen
18:25the have you seen how Chris milk does
18:27his recordings no huh no he actually has
18:29a plastic human head with ears all
18:33around it because so it turns out like
18:35the reason that you that you know a
18:37sound is behind you is your brain is
18:39trained to to know that when it hits
18:41like the shape of your ear will alter
18:44the sound and so your brain knows if the
18:47sound stuff sounds a certain way it's to
18:48the right of you it has a different way
18:50it's behind you because of the shape of
18:51your ear so the only way to properly
18:53record 3d sound is to have basically a
18:55head with a bunch of ears on it and then
18:57as you turn this is and as you turn then
18:59the sound turns appropriately that's the
19:02way you trick your brain so that's
19:03fascinating so I have a question for you
19:05actually you know I've been thinking a
19:07lot about this and you know there are a
19:09lot of players entering this space and I
19:11think that oculus is is happy about this
19:13and there's room for everyone but we
19:15have this spectrum that's emerged now
19:18right you have kind of low-end devices
19:19like Google cardboard or any clamshell
19:21device so that you basically plug the
19:22smartphone and if it doesn't have any
19:23onboard processing and then you have
19:25kind of Samsung gear VR which is a
19:27little bit between the two it has a
19:29little bit of onboard work that's being
19:30done and then you have kind of full
19:32standalone peripheral that works with a
19:35with a dedicated computer we're gonna I
19:38would imagine we're gonna need standards
19:39at some point right we're going to need
19:42something that is kind of certified VR
19:44you know I was last week I was at this
19:46event in Miami and I ended up meeting
19:49the guy who started the meant to be seen
19:52forums which was this message board for
19:55a three D and later VR which is where
19:57Palmer and Carmack first connected so he
20:00and I were talking and he he kind of
20:02made me see the light about this he said
20:04you know what is gonna stop someone from
20:07claiming that a product is VR mmm just
20:10because you can put on goggles yeah
20:12right because there's still a lot of
20:13consumer products out there that are
20:15basically just hanging a screen in front
20:16of your eyes and aren't delivering that
20:18transport of experience so I think it's
20:20great so I think one to me one of the
20:21big open questions is how good is a VR
20:23have to be to for people to embrace it
20:26right so I think if you talk to like
20:28Brendan and oculus he's got a very very
20:30high bar or thankfully to I like he
20:31doesn't think like to me Crescent Bay
20:33you know it was clearly a you know it's
20:36ready to go you know he's still like
20:39wants to you know he still wants to make
20:40it better um he's got a very very high
20:42bar other people I talked to I think
20:44Chris milk is one think we're all old
20:47people who grew up on in the era of what
20:49he calls rectangle fetishism so the
20:55rectangle fetishists believe that you
20:58know you've been so trained not to see
21:00this but when that's like the six year
21:01you put a Samsung thing on a six year
21:03old and they don't you know they're off
21:04to the races it's like well you know
21:06it's like they don't need much better
21:08and of course they'll watch their movies
21:10in a virtual movie theater with their
21:12Samsung on so they're sort of like what
21:13you might call like the VR maximalist
21:15view of like Brendan in the minimalist
21:17and I don't know the answer I mean I
21:18think I tend to my instinct is more on
21:21the Brennan side I think you need to
21:22make it really really good especially
21:24people are gonna use it for six hours or
21:25something and you know and like the dk2
21:28I love it but there's a screen door
21:30family yeah there's the field of view
21:32you know the refresh rate there's issues
21:34right so I tend to think that and
21:37therefore you know as you can't really
21:40impose standards to say everyone has to
21:42make something just as awesome as lock
21:44you lose who's spending billions of
21:45dollars right so so if you're maximalist
21:47it's hard to imagine that standards
21:49emerging anytime soon because it's gonna
21:50be you know a constant horse race it'd
21:53be like if you like back in the piece a
21:54year and the ninety saying everyone has
21:56top to your Pentium like it's not
21:57realistic right so it's that's a good
22:00question to me is like what we like how
22:01much of this is just that we grew up in
22:03the non VR era and and expect the
22:06standard to be very high how much is you
22:08know the other thing is interesting is
22:09right like people talk about simulator
22:10sickness and I think up until two years
22:13ago everyone thought that had to do
22:14people we talked to when we invest in
22:16oculus they also it had to do with the
22:17latency right the latency in between
22:19your it's it's motion to photon your
22:21head moves and then your eye gets
22:23updated right and then it turns out
22:25basically the oculus is now solved that
22:26like it's it's it's low enough it's
22:28whatever it is ten milliseconds doesn't
22:30matter and yet you still and you
22:32generally don't get sick but like you
22:33still get like if a zombie jumps out
22:35from the right side of your you know you
22:37know from from behind you you get scared
22:40and potentially if enough of that
22:42happens you get sick so I think we've
22:43moved beyond the point where the
22:44sickness comes from technical issues it
22:47now comes from the fact that you your
22:48body feels like you're in a different
22:50and people can do things to you in that
22:52world that have a strong emotional
22:54impact right so we sort of move beyond
22:56to my mind the technical into the sort
22:58of the the like you talked about
23:00standards I think there's gonna be more
23:01like standards like you can't have
23:02zombies just jump out on people's like
23:05that's like that's like you know
23:06whatever the federal may cause seizures
23:12to me there's two so to answer your
23:14question there's are two levels right
23:15there's the technical level of what do
23:16minimally to convince people and not
23:19have simulator sickness and then there's
23:20what is the cott one of the rules of the
23:22content in that world because your body
23:24it's a different feeling than what
23:26seeing something on the screen game
23:27design best practices is going to be a
23:28huge part of this and I think one of the
23:30the best things to come out of epics
23:33kind of close partnership with oculus
23:35throughout their entire development
23:37process is they're really up there at
23:40the front lines figuring out what works
23:42and what doesn't they created you know
23:43the vast majority of those early demos
23:45through dk1 dk2 and like you said they
23:49did that kind of PS or as a songs on on
23:51a crescent Bay and so they and you know
23:55every triple a studio has amande is
23:56working with it but there are going to
23:59be I think maybe categories and we see
24:02this now if you put on your Samsung and
24:04you go to the store you see
24:07most people will be comfortable
24:08uncomfortable for some uncomfortable for
24:10many and it's this very squishy scale
24:13but it's based on how dynamic is the
24:16action how much does your perspective
24:18move around the world and I think that
24:21that actually maybe is a clue to how
24:23we're gonna see this evolve is there
24:25maybe there's just going to be a scale
24:27of probably not one to ten but I would
24:30imagine it's on a G through n
24:31c---seventeen type of hierarchy right
24:33where only the most reading
24:35battle-hardened you know Call of Duty
24:38heads will be able to handle something
24:40and you know I'm a big believer in the
24:42idea that those experiences should be
24:44available to those who want them should
24:46a studio be willing to investing that 12
24:48year old is gonna be like turn it up
24:49turn it oh yeah turn into a stir yeah I
24:56think about the kind of the sniper
24:57montage as you see of kids running
24:59around a called Duty map no scoping
25:01everyone and doing a 360 turn in between
25:04and it's dizzying to watch in YouTube
25:06imagine I'm playing there and that's how
25:08they're gonna want to do it
25:12terrifying it's gonna be awesome
25:15so on the on the developer side so we
25:18have you know if you go on the reddit
25:20forums or an oculus share there's tons
25:21of kind of indie excitement I think
25:24oculus has a few partnerships but you
25:26know what what are you seeing in terms
25:27of like the you know is why I guess it's
25:30a question I have is why isn't you know
25:31EA and Activision all these guys you
25:33know going heavy into it or do you think
25:35they will some Plan C I think they have
25:37I think that you know I think that
25:40there's some value may be in for a
25:42studio at least in waiting for those
25:44specs to get a little more firmly
25:46entrenched I don't know if questions
25:47they just suspects the input things like
25:49that yeah I think it's to the risk the
25:51market risk I think I think a lot of
25:54people like a lot of prospective
25:56employees were swayed by the acquisition
26:00last year I think that it's interesting
26:02you know like you say that because you
26:04know we live in a different world where
26:06startups are like the game world is
26:09different than the venture capital
26:11startup world and it's funny because we
26:12we'd like for example Michael a brush we
26:14try I actually flew up to Seattle a
26:15couple weeks before the Facebook
26:18because we were trying to recruit him
26:20for so long and then once Facebook
26:22happened I think it was the day after
26:23that early and so that in the game world
26:25you're right like they don't believe in
26:26kind of start up equity as much in like
26:28right Facebook coming in with like cold
26:30hard cash that's real to them made a big
26:33but yeah but but also I mean that the
26:35way the way the gaming ecosystem has
26:38changed is there's this huge middle
26:40ground that used to exist and no longer
26:43does right so you have all these really
26:45small vibrant indie games and then on
26:47the other end of the spectrum you have
26:49it's the very Indian the very very
26:51Indian very big so what I don't think
26:53we're gonna see in the early years are
26:55very big we're not gonna see destiny
26:58done for VR we're not gonna see EA buy
27:00in at a hundred million dollar level I
27:02think what we are gonna see quite
27:03possibly is obviously the proliferation
27:06of indie games that are made for it just
27:07because that's what's happening now but
27:09I think that we may see a slight return
27:11of this idea of the Double A game these
27:14things that used to exist you know there
27:16were a lot of games that maybe they were
27:17ten bucks cheaper than the big games you
27:19would buy but they were a full-fledge
27:21really polished game experience and I
27:23think that you can spend ten million
27:25dollars on something twenty million
27:26dollars on something without the risk of
27:28going all in on the next Assassin's
27:30Creed being VR you know you don't have
27:32to I think people underestimate the size
27:34of the for example the Steam PC gaming
27:36commune my god it's analysis and those
27:39are the obvious early adopters for VR
27:41and the games that are so huge on Steam
27:44are games that are just a grain of sand
27:48to the console gamer things like
27:49Kentucky route zero and you know even
27:51the telltale game stuff it's just a
27:53there's a really solid foundation for
27:58smaller games and that's what those are
28:01going to be uniquely well-suited I think
28:03to the are in general so Sunday's just
28:05happened yeah I think did you write no
28:07I'm editing stuff articles about I
28:10thought about about this and apparently
28:13VR was one of the hot topics yeah well
28:17it's all taking place for the most part
28:18within the new frontiers program which
28:20is kind of the more experimental thing
28:21so there are I think there may be seven
28:24things that were built for VR anything
28:26everything from cardboard to Samsung to
28:31and then obviously as we mentioned the
28:33oculus story studio announcement came
28:34out and Chris milks announcement that he
28:37was working with Annapurna pictures to
28:40this company verse which is basically a
28:42distribution platform that he's making
28:44for VR filmmakers and then he's got
28:45other pranks of that as well Annapurna
28:47is also working with Vice and vice news
28:50put together this really cool VR
28:51experience of being at the millions
28:55March the the police brutality marches
28:57in NYC this past fall they they brought
28:59a set up there and you know this is so
29:02dependent on people solving the live
29:05action capture and their there are a lot
29:08of ways that it can go wrong I mean a
29:10this is very there's a lot of companies
29:12like John is one right John is one these
29:14cool 3d kids next VR is another Samsung
29:17has already announced that they're
29:19they're going to have a kind of a camera
29:21capture tool for people some people are
29:23just making their own array of reds kind
29:26of around a pole frame store is
29:27exploring some really cool things
29:29they're doing with video and so there
29:31are a lot of people in the space but I
29:34think the way it's looking right now is
29:36a lot of that is just gonna stay
29:37proprietary I don't think we're gonna
29:38find a all-in-one solution do you think
29:43we'll see like a big investment from
29:46Hollywood oh yeah I think we already I
29:48think we already are I mean I think that
29:50every time a big developer tries it
29:52they're blown away I mean I'm from
29:53alfonso cuarón to Cronenberg and like i
29:57said that now that pixar people are
29:59working on CGI movies with them we're
30:03already seeing that they've had people
30:04you know oculus has had I'm gonna forget
30:07his name while I'm on the spot but they
30:09had a Hollywood liaison for about a year
30:11now and those fruits are certainly
30:12paying off what we what we saw very
30:15early was Studios getting in to VR for
30:18ancillary marketing purposes you had the
30:20interstellar thing you had the Game of
30:21Thrones thing who had you had the
30:23Pacific Rim thing and I think that the
30:26the potential of those was was born out
30:29really quickly I think now they're
30:30they're starting to crack those
30:31narrative questions that lead to an
30:33actual film experience alright awesome
30:35well thanks a lot for being here thanks
30:36for having me interest
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