00:02hi everyone welcome to the a 6nz podcast
00:05and today this podcast is all about
00:07technology and Africa now that's a
00:09really huge topic so we have experts
00:11from various backgrounds and regions of
00:13Africa to help us cover a lot of
00:14interesting nuances behind the stats
00:16that we typically hear as well as a lot
00:18of the buzzwords that we commonly hear
00:19our three guests to help us do this
00:21today are Alan Knott Craig who runs
00:23project a C's way an NGO based in South
00:26Africa that helps African governments
00:28get free Wi-Fi in poor communities their
00:30goal is to create Internet access as a
00:32utility hired a founding project a C's
00:34way Alan was an entrepreneur who ran
00:36Mixit which is one of the largest mobile
00:37social networks created in Africa in q2
00:40is our next guest and she is the CEO
00:43spin let a digital media company that
00:45focuses on African centric music and has
00:47music available on iOS Android and also
00:49via web browser and we'll talk more
00:51about why about that later soon let's
00:53headquartered in Nigeria but there also
00:55elsewhere in Africa and also in Europe
00:57and in the United States
00:58fun fact in queue was actually an IPO
01:01lawyer who joined the company as general
01:02counsel before becoming CEO and she
01:06actually didn't think she was ready to
01:07be CEO until she read Sheryl Sandberg's
01:09book lean in which actually inspired her
01:11to go ahead and take the CEO job and now
01:13she's been in it for the past year and a
01:15half and finally we have Nandita
01:17the research lead at AI hub I hubs an
01:20incubator not an accelerator although it
01:22does lead to acceleration of startups
01:24it's based in Kenya and provides a
01:26physical space for connecting
01:27entrepreneurs a way to test their ideas
01:29provide info to them and much more and
01:32they do a lot of interesting research as
01:34well and some of that will come up in
01:35this podcast okay so that's our guest on
01:37today's pod and we're honored to have
01:39you all join all the way from various
01:41parts of Africa I think the first thing
01:43I want to start with is sort of just
01:45this notion of when we talk about people
01:47talk about technology in Africa the
01:49first notion I want to just jump right
01:50into is actually D homogenizing what
01:53people mean when they say Africa because
01:55Africa is clearly a huge continent but
01:57we have a tendency to refer to Africa as
02:00like one big place and you know I don't
02:03have any personal experience in Africa
02:05my mom was born and raised in Uganda and
02:07I studied African literature in
02:09particularly Nigerian authors like
02:11florianópolis yeah Chinua Achebe and
02:14others what boyish oink
02:16but anyway what I'd love to hear from
02:18you guys first is how would you sort of
02:21define sort of what you consider some of
02:23the universals when people refer to
02:25Africa and then what are some of the
02:27more you know things that people need to
02:28pay attention not to clump in together
02:30when they're referring to Africa the
02:33continent versus like different
02:34the notion seems to be especially in
02:36business that you know buy one get fifty
02:39three three so you know if you get your
02:41business working in South Africa the
02:42model will work in Kenya Nigeria and so
02:44a lot of business mistakes are being
02:45made from that notion and it's that sort
02:47of deal or actually homogenizing of it
02:49but yes there are notions where I mean
02:52they're in little cultural nuances that
02:54make it seem like a country but they're
02:55very contextual very that's still
02:57emerging we're all still learning who we
02:59are as a collective and so yeah I hope
03:02maybe by 2017 still would have to say
03:04Africa you know to remind people Africa
03:06is not a country sort of great summit to
03:10mine when people say Africa I sort of
03:11like oh there's 53 countries very
03:14different experiences and when people
03:17say and I'm an expert in Africa or in
03:20Africa and I'm thinking what does that
03:22I live in Lagos and I'm not even an
03:23expert in Lagos on Magus anything has to
03:26delay cuz there's different people
03:27different kinds of people living here
03:28we're really really extremely different
03:30of course there's similarities like
03:32everybody else but the difference is
03:34really really quite harsh the
03:37differences and so when you say you
03:39backpack across the continent for three
03:41weeks and then you then say you in
03:42Africa expect it's a bit irritating from
03:44my perspective but just generally
03:46generally speaking one of the more maybe
03:49interesting thing is when you know
03:51Americans are doing African voices in
03:53film it's always a South African accent
03:56trying to be Nigerian right well Allen
04:02what's your take on this you were born
04:03and raised in Africa and in South Africa
04:06specifically and you know interestingly
04:09given that your company focuses on
04:11providing free Wi-Fi and working with
04:14different governments and communities
04:15you must actually see more of the
04:16commonalities across the region's the
04:18way I look at it is you've got kind of
04:22erratic Africa which is very much the
04:25northern part from Sahara and then
04:26you've got sub-saharan
04:28a little but a little bit more
04:29homogeneous and then sub-saharan you
04:31kind of divided between the waste
04:33African trading bloc and the East
04:34African trading bloc and the southern
04:36African bloc which is you know southern
04:38Africa is about you know setec really
04:40South African Development Community
04:42South Africa Mozambique Zimbabwe
04:45Francois namilama beer and then you've
04:48got English speaking in French speaking
04:49Africa which are fast vastly different
04:52kind of communities so it's possible to
04:55kind of lump it all together in one
04:56bigger and you know from our perspective
04:59we we kind of very much kind of think
05:01you know at least from an
05:02english-speaking perspective sub-saharan
05:05Africa is as close to a homogeneous
05:06market as you can get oh okay that's
05:08actually interesting but I just want to
05:10say also you know there are some
05:11stereotypes that the people should know
05:14so for instance South Africa's a bit
05:16black Germany in Europe you know no one
05:19in Europe lacks Germany it drives the
05:23German so you know so the african
05:25product is respected but the africans
05:27aren't all is the most like
05:30you know Kenyans are well known for
05:32talking a hell of a good game guys from
05:35Nigeria we have stereotypes like that in
05:41in regions of India as well okay great
05:45so you guys said then what is the major
05:48commonality then because you know based
05:49on what a lot of the reports that I read
05:51about technology in Africa a big focus
05:54is talking about mobile as this sort of
05:57this great I don't want to say the word
05:59equalizer but at the same time like it
06:01does have that sort of a power it's true
06:03Mobile has really been that technology
06:05that has been perhaps most disruptive
06:07and in terms of one of the sort of
06:09development speak terms being
06:11leapfrogging it's helping leapfrog in so
06:14communication access to finances and
06:17this is where we go again q m-pesa right
06:20m-pesa as in the company that came out
06:22of kept the payment system that came out
06:24of Kenya and it's basically mobile
06:26payments essentially now the thing is I
06:29think what I'd love is to not restrict
06:31ourselves to thinking that mobile is the
06:33only sort of tool through which
06:35advancements and developments can happen
06:37as far as I see T's go there's so many
06:39other things that come with the idea of
06:41a mobile phone so yes it's been that
06:42technology that is too advanced so many
06:44things but now we're talking about the
06:46infrastructure that needs to be
06:48underlying access to Internet to access
06:50to certain services and I offered via
06:52the internet and so that also goes
06:54beyond just providing through the narrow
06:56spectrum of mobile though that has
06:58obviously been you know the front leader
07:01the Trailblazer so to speak
07:03in in terms of commonality it seems to
07:05me in the most countries in Africa just
07:08are not connected so that for those
07:10roads or trade or financial services or
07:14connect actually in a bandwidth you know
07:17having having personally you know tried
07:20and failed a number of times I've done
07:21it okay here and there but for the most
07:23part any any internet startup in Africa
07:26is really struggling to kind of get any
07:28traction on his local market because
07:30there's just not enough people on the
07:31Internet and whilst 3G is pretty
07:34ubiquitous and LTE is becoming even more
07:36ubiquitous the question is not so much
07:39about accessibility it's a question of
07:41affordability and the vast majority of
07:44us majority of people in Africa can't
07:46really afford and the kind of going
07:48rates for for 3G just to put things in
07:51perspective if you spin it if you watch
07:54a seven second YouTube video on 3G at
07:57South African data rates
07:58it'll cost you about twenty dollars
08:00twenty US dollars oh man that's a lot
08:03yeah that's a lot of money so Lola it's
08:05you know a monthly grocery bull for your
08:08average your low-end household so so
08:11we're we coming from you know after
08:12travelin Phil tyranny around town and
08:15get more people on to apps and internet
08:18applications decided to go back to
08:20square one and and kind of give people
08:22on the internet before you try setting
08:23that start selling them things need to
08:25knit and you know from my perspective it
08:27just kind of dawned on me that the only
08:29way it's really gonna happen in our
08:30environment is if the government starts
08:32getting very much involved in
08:33infrastructure subsidizing it and making
08:36it free and in a country like South
08:38Africa water and electricity is
08:40constitutionally a right for everybody
08:42so everyone in the country gets a basic
08:44quota of water and electricity and the
08:47government pays for from tax money and
08:48we're trying to kind of push a model
08:51whereby public public Wi-Fi is provided
08:55by the government as well subsidized by
08:56taxpayers and and everybody's entitled
08:58to a daily quota the commonalities are
09:01that it's a difficult terrain to
09:03navigate but I think also that's one of
09:05the strengths that we have is that
09:06there's like immense opportunities here
09:08in terms of finding you know then you
09:10can sort of create magic out of nothing
09:12here because it's just a lot a lot to
09:14work with and so that's what I find very
09:16interesting you know here and I do agree
09:18to I totally had sort of a believer in
09:20the internet being I'm not saying I
09:24should be a human right I'm not that you
09:26know not that advanced and saying that
09:28but I stooping it should be right access
09:30to it anyway because from my perspective
09:32the what the internet affords ISM access
09:35to the world access to education you
09:37know the things that maybe government
09:39can't really provide because you know
09:41government doesn't have as much money as
09:42I sure do and because of mismanagement
09:43but if people had access to the Internet
09:45perhaps I think that it creates like a
09:48whole opportunity for people to access
09:52information that they use for in your
09:54daily life they need business health
09:57I mean or maybe we should just have it
09:59as a right I mean maybe we should dare
10:01to dream because I think it the
10:03Internet's and access access to it and
10:05affordability as Alan rightfully pointed
10:08out are the two key things we're looking
10:10at but also the fact that participating
10:12in society and economy is going forward
10:14is actually going to be facilitated
10:16primarily by the internet and so we need
10:19to maybe dream and have a bit of a more
10:21lofty goal other than just accepting
10:22from our government so that there isn't
10:24enough money the issue as you rightfully
10:26pointed out here is actually that you
10:28know if we're not poor it's actually
10:29just mismanagement so it would be
10:31actually nice to probably dream for that
10:33and actually push for that I think you
10:34guys are completely right it's worth
10:36actually taking a pause for a moment to
10:38reflect on those words because we tend
10:39to throw them around very loosely here
10:42in the u.s. like access affordability
10:43but you're actually talking about true
10:46access as a right affordability is one
10:48of the mechanisms for making that happen
10:50and then what you're what you're really
10:53saying in in JIRA is that there's an
10:56element of inclusion as well that it's
10:59about getting people the ability to be
11:01included in this larger broader global
11:03movement where they do have access to
11:06this knowledge information etc etc well
11:08just to put things in perspective so I
11:10read an a statistic that estimated that
11:12the number of smartphones in Africa
11:15would be about 930 million by 2019 which
11:19is just three years away and that's
11:20basically about one phone mobile phone
11:24per African how do you guys see that on
11:26the ground there and and and that by the
11:29way as we've just learned does not
11:30equate with actual internet access so
11:34what's the sort of differential between
11:35having a mobile phone and then the
11:37penetration of access to bandwidth on
11:47the continent considering there were
11:49about 1.1 1.2 billion now I don't know
11:52I'm not quite sure maybe about a billion
11:53okay the penetration hasn't been as fast
11:56as people have sort of forecasted
11:58whatever almost everybody has a mobile
12:00phone but they're not smart and it's not
12:02enabled so this is difference here right
12:05I'm glad you're reminding us to make
12:06that distinction so it's my phone
12:09not penetrating as fast as we you know
12:12all the predictions have said I think a
12:15lot of businesses have been predicated
12:17on the different what you call it the
12:20different before cast about how fast
12:24smartphones will penetrate the markets
12:26but they haven't come as quickly because
12:27they read expensive of course with the
12:29new and with androids now becoming much
12:31cheaper we're seeing and penetration is
12:33becoming higher but it's still not
12:36catching up as quickly as we're hoping
12:38okay so you think one of the reasons
12:40things haven't penetrated as fast as
12:41forecasted or and businesses are being
12:43built on these assumptions is because of
12:46the fact that the phones are quite not
12:47quite as cheap yet necessarily for
12:49everybody exactly yeah and I think it's
12:52again context you know again just back
12:56to the point I made earlier about the
12:58ecosystem and looking beyond the mobile
13:00phone as the only tool that through
13:02which you know access should be
13:04facilitated I mean because there's also
13:06the question we're asking ourselves now
13:07is instead is that we're conducting with
13:10people at sort of the base of the
13:11pyramid or those who bout to be
13:13first-time Internet users to better
13:15understand their needs and their
13:16understanding or this oncoming device or
13:18space that is the Internet just to
13:21better understand that there are needs
13:23that go beyond the mobile phone and so
13:25that those there may be you know we have
13:27a cyber cafes for instance that still
13:29exists and so one you know one cyber
13:31cafe could serve maybe a hundred people
13:33in an locality and maybe they don't have
13:35mobile phones at home but they're
13:36surfacing they're still getting access
13:38right or other senses like that so
13:41there's a need to start taking all
13:44statistics beyond the rush to quantify
13:47Africa as I call it to take statistics
13:49in context and bring them all together
13:51to a holistic picture so maybe not
13:53mobile phones there maybe a platter
13:54obviously because of the affordability
13:56our aspect or that last mile
13:58connectivity element but what about
14:00other ways people are accessing the
14:02Internet so that's actually really
14:03interesting um do you have some of those
14:05statistics or a little can you give us a
14:06little bit more flavor about what that
14:08looks like right so what we found it's
14:10really mostly studies that we do user
14:12experience studies dis better
14:13understanding the targets user for any a
14:15mobile phone application or service is
14:18that you know these are very and
14:20especially in a country like Kenya now
14:22the example here is much famed for
14:25elements like m-pesa but they're all
14:27that cultural factors that also have
14:28been hindrances to such that last mile
14:31connectivity so you'll find for instance
14:32it would be traditionally the women may
14:35not have access to a mobile phone
14:36because of how structures of property
14:39ownership exist beyond you know or
14:41predating technology and so how come
14:44those and if that lady cannot own a
14:47phone at home maybe she can access the
14:48same services she needs on the internet
14:50via a center she can go to during the
14:52day when nobody's bothering her
14:54we don't know who's holding what to your
14:56head when you're accessing a mobile
14:57phone that's a really good point so it's
15:00that these are important statistics
15:02they're good for estimations but we also
15:04need to bring in the qualitative
15:05insights the single most instrumental
15:09fact from people not owning smart phones
15:11is actually the price of smart phones
15:13well yes there obviously it's a two
15:16reasons why people don't have you know
15:18different people but the majority of
15:19people don't know in spots because
15:20you're expensive and that's what's cool
15:22about Android compared to iOS which is
15:24that you know you can now get an Android
15:26phone and whole like $70 and I'm sure in
15:29the next year too there'll be Android
15:30for less than $50 and I think the
15:32cheaper the phones get the more people
15:35will have them Allen do you want to jump
15:36in here and maybe share a perspective on
15:38what you're seeing from a more systemic
15:40level working with governments across
15:43Africa especially because I think what
15:45Nadira brought up about the last mile is
15:47a really really interesting point do you
15:49what are some of the obstacles that
15:50you're seeing culturally as well as
15:51technically I'll just an example in a
15:55South African Township and a fleshlight
15:57Russian go over a mammillary 70% of
15:59people if they want to apply for a job
16:02they need to get in a taxi they need to
16:04go to the local community center they
16:06look on a board they look for the jobs
16:08first on the board they write down the
16:10contact details for the job they can
16:12under taxi they got a printing shop they
16:14print their CV they get in a taxi
16:16they go to the offices of the employer
16:18and they hand in their CV and then they
16:19wait for somebody to get back and that's
16:21you know that's a between four or four
16:25in ten dollars kind of cost and takes
16:26your whole day and that's something that
16:28you know a lot of people in the world
16:29haven't done for 20 years so just - you
16:33really have to go back to basics you
16:36not talking it is no ubiquity of the
16:37internet for most people in Africa the
16:41we've we've now got we were now involved
16:44with the deployment of the largest
16:45public free Wi-Fi network on the
16:47continent and you know we found this
16:50some interesting behavioral stuff first
16:52thing is that there's not a it's not a
16:54very big penetration of smart devices so
16:56Wi-Fi enabled devices or maybe maybe not
16:58maybe 50% of households and low-income
17:00communities but there's a big sharing
17:03behavior so a lot of people are sharing
17:05devices so it's not so much about how
17:08many people have a device it's about how
17:09many households ahead of us and if
17:10there's between five and ten people
17:12living in a household anything your
17:13device penetration goes I've quite a lot
17:15because those five or ten people are
17:16sharing one device to get on the web say
17:18can be a lot of a lot of low-income
17:21communities who are not accustomed to
17:23the internet are still measuring data in
17:25minutes so if it takes you five minutes
17:27to download a video they think it's more
17:29expensive than it takes you one minute
17:31even if the video happens to actually be
17:33more data and you're just in a fast and
17:34a trip so it's a lot of Education has to
17:36go on around there old people basically
17:39anybody out there doesn't really know
17:40what to do with each it when you give it
17:42to them so it's the black being an
17:44American a 1995 you need to have you
17:47need to have like a landing page from a
17:48well yeah who's saying this is the
17:50internet click careful you know
17:51something that's useful so you can't
17:53give people a clean Google page it's
17:54absolutely meaningless for most of the
17:56communities we do it so what is this
17:58what are we gonna do with us and and
18:00some of the communities are literate
18:01either so which brings me to the content
18:04and the content is I mean music videos
18:07are or just a killer
18:09category which is fun it's gonna make
18:10lots of money Christianity is a massive
18:12fake fake based content to clearly
18:14Christian fed is massive and European
18:17football I mean in South Africa the
18:19premier hockey league's quite big but
18:20just generally English Premier League
18:22and and European football particularly
18:24clubs like Chelsea with lots of African
18:27it's a massive content category you
18:28don't understand how many people are
18:30following that caster and we send our
18:32networks that BlackBerry is a massive
18:34chunk of the market I mean I know in
18:36America BlackBerry's data that you know
18:37people laugh about blackberry but it's
18:38it's around yeah it's still pretty big
18:40and wahwee while we Android devices are
18:44I think it's a little bit different from
18:46what's happening in the States that's
18:48actually super helpful for fleshing out
18:50statistics we're talking about together
18:51you guys are sort of sharing both
18:53different ways of putting those numbers
18:55that we typically hear in context I
18:57think what you pointed out about
18:58measuring things in terms of people
19:00versus devices in the household is
19:03really important to talk about that
19:05penetration rate and even the
19:06misconceptions people have around
19:08minutes versus data size is also really
19:11interesting and then we also talked
19:12about some of the more qualitative
19:13behaviors that you know go with the
19:16power structures that you mentioned and
19:19jerry' where it's sort of like about
19:20like you know is the woman the one who
19:22has a device and she may be in the same
19:24household with like ten other adults but
19:26is her power and access equal to say the
19:28men in the house I mean it's sounds like
19:30there's a lot of different things to
19:31think about um Alan I think it's also
19:34really interesting that you talk about
19:35entertainment based content being very
19:37popular because you would almost think
19:39that with this being sort of this
19:40utility model that you're we're all sort
19:43of arguing for it's interesting that the
19:45things that people find most popular
19:47actually still down to entertainment
19:49music sports for some people they would
19:52consider faith and entertainment I mean
19:54it's sort of like how people pass their
19:55free time in a lot of different regions
19:57that's actually kind of counterintuitive
19:59to me and how does that play out with
20:01your observations in guru given that you
20:03run a music company it's a big continent
20:06and there's definitely a lot of poverty
20:08but in saying that there's a growing
20:10middle class and you know you can't
20:12solve Africa's problem or the world's
20:14problem in one you know in one in one
20:16fell swoop so is the growing middle
20:19class big enough for us to sort of white
20:21look at I think so I think that you know
20:23the whole picture of you know when you
20:24see on CNN when there's you know black
20:26kids swatting flies and so that's just
20:28that's not I mean yes there's poverty
20:31but there's great stuff happening here
20:32as well so entertainment is huge because
20:35people are people have you know more
20:38income or maybe maybe not in Nigeria
20:40right now we have a recession but people
20:41have more income and they want to you
20:43know what they want to spend money you
20:45know doing chilled cool things and for
20:47example going back to mobile phones
20:48they're special so you know in the way
20:51that you want to sort of move to Lagos
20:53because you're in the townships or
20:54you're in the rural area you want to
20:55move to they go things are aspirational
20:57here people want to be cool people want
20:59to associate being Nigerian it's cool
21:00now major music's cool compared to
21:02American music you know
21:03those kinds of things are things that we
21:05consider so there is a huge growing
21:06middle class we think and that's why you
21:09see that well some people are poor and
21:10some people are poor and some people are
21:12less poor and some people are really
21:13rich and there's I think there's a
21:16spectrum of people that are all African
21:18and we can sort of like look at
21:20different perspectives rather than just
21:21focusing on the bad all the bad stuff
21:23that goes on here as everywhere else I
21:25think it's interesting actually cuz you
21:26guys are painting a whole range which is
21:28sort of the fact that the mobile phone
21:30can be everything from utility which
21:32we've heard that common statistic that
21:33most people more people have mobile
21:35phones and they do toilets in a lot of
21:36developing countries and then at the
21:38other end of the spectrum you have this
21:40notion of the mobile phone as a very
21:41aspirational device ecosystem and all
21:45these things that come with it
21:46I think the point you're drawing about
21:48focusing on the growing middle class is
21:50incredibly important because that is on
21:52a continuum I mean we can't be focusing
21:54only on one extreme the very rich or the
21:56very poor either it's certainly
21:57certainly true in thinking about this
21:59yeah I'd say another angles is also
22:03let's even imagine a utopia where every
22:06African has a mobile phone and they
22:08actually able to create are they able to
22:10code on that mobile phone and contribute
22:12to another community right tonight
22:13they're just going to the consumers and
22:15this is where we need to start asking
22:16these questions around what access to
22:19the Internet and how it facilitating so
22:21that this fixation on a particular
22:22device does not hibbett an Arab it
22:25inhibits us from seeing a bigger picture
22:26on how people could actually contribute
22:28and benefit from the global economy
22:31that's also going to be a very digital
22:32one there's this famous quote about
22:35Steve Jobs I don't know if it's true or
22:36not if it's just anecdote saying that
22:38you know getting this criticism that the
22:41iPad was only intended to be you know
22:43for consumption and him feeling very you
22:45know affected by that and trying to you
22:48know what work on that and clearly this
22:49huge ecosystem of apps have grown up
22:51around since the launch of the iPad
22:54where people can actually produce versus
22:56just consume on mobile devices that said
22:59we tend to take a very academic approach
23:02I think to that debate it's almost like
23:04frosting on the cake versus what you're
23:06describing is actually again incredibly
23:08important to the notion of inclusion and
23:11being included in this larger global
23:12movement like can you create code can
23:14you create art can you not just
23:17be a consumer who's taking yet another
23:19technology from elsewhere or even
23:21locally and just providing money to it
23:23versus actually being able to do
23:26so walking about oh can you code on your
23:29mobile phone can you do this I'm
23:30thinking I don't even have water I need
23:32to have like life you know I have power
23:36to me for saying like I don't it then
23:39say there's no power here because we
23:41have to produce our own power like I
23:42spent here we really have to run a
23:44generator 24/7 what I mean so these are
23:48crazy things that happen here but yeah
23:50you know we're still thinking about you
23:51know well how we want to code so I think
23:53it's just an interesting place to be
23:55what you can do both yeah no I think
23:57it's fascinating it's like collapsing
23:59Maslow's hierarchy of needs it's sort of
24:01like saying there's like this funny
24:02diagram that a periodically makes the
24:05rounds on the internet where it's like
24:06Maslow's hierarchy of needs where you
24:08have basic things for survival and at
24:10the very bottom it's Wi-Fi exactly
24:16considerations and development agendas
24:19where we're sunny sees whether it's a
24:21so do we invest in water or Internet is
24:23such a very short-sighted question you
24:26know does it mean then we should not
24:27focus should we get everyone access to
24:29water so that we then get people
24:31internet so the hierarchy of meat is
24:34being renegotiated even from a state
24:36perspective or donor perspective you
24:38know and each you know there's so many
24:40nuances to each aspect because either
24:42way even if we waited and divested money
24:44to bringing in water first we're still
24:47going to be missing out but for those
24:48who already have access or those who
24:50could have access so it's a really
24:51interesting development question so the
24:54main main thing is governance you know
24:55if you're living in South Africa when I
24:58Jiri on Kineo and so Bob we owe any any
25:00part of Africa actually any part of the
25:02world come to think of it we're all kind
25:04of complaining about the same thing you
25:05know our leaders aren't doing a good job
25:07a teacher so when it comes to votes and
25:10who just in deciding who gets into part
25:12we're never gonna have better leadership
25:13if people don't know what's going on oh
25:15that's a good point so like sort of
25:17knowledge as a way to sort of break down
25:18some of that discussion yeah I want to
25:21revisit a theme that you guys brought up
25:23earlier which is you know you mentioned
25:25Allen that people get a little taken
25:27aback when they see a clean Google page
25:29because they sort of need
25:30instructions on how to navigate for
25:32first-time Internet users what to do
25:34next one of the interesting insights
25:36that I heard on our podcasts about China
25:38and India is how people actually get
25:41taken aback with a very clean
25:43uncluttered page because they're so used
25:45to having limited bandwidth that they
25:47want high information density like
25:49they'd much rather have a design where
25:50there's just a bunch of links for the
25:52sake of being parsimonious about that
25:54use of bandwidth what are some of the
25:55interesting things happening on the
25:56design side of all these apps and things
25:58that you guys are seeing and using in
26:00your various regions or that you're
26:02working on you know we deal with some of
26:04the some US companies that try to come
26:06in to you know Africa I find that maybe
26:11some first fall kind of companies
26:13underestimate the consumer you know ray
26:15I think something something pretty
26:17b-grade they can get away with it but
26:19you know the Internet is here people can
26:21look around and see for themselves
26:22what's good and what's not so provided
26:24it's not consuming too much data
26:26I think user experience as consumers
26:29seem to be demanding as good or using
26:31experiences anywhere outside of Africa
26:33and you just have to make it mobile
26:35centric you just have to make it mobile
26:37centric and that is this is known as
26:38absolutely irrelevant whether it looks
26:40nice on the laptop and it's just not
26:41great adventure for us when we try to
26:44understand that and also not homogenized
26:46users and users is encouraged especially
26:47our startups that we housed here and
26:50other clients really to consider user
26:53experience design in their you know in
26:54their iterations of either applications
26:56mobile websites or any offering that
26:58giving to the internet because usually
27:00assumed you know there's a standard
27:01typical user who just needs to get this
27:03and that in that but they're very
27:04different nuances so if it's a woman
27:06again who's trying to use a mobile
27:08health app there are going to be things
27:10that she sees by to have value maybe at
27:13the landing page just seeing all the
27:15different ways they could go to one
27:16place other than just landing on a
27:17single page as you mentioned so there's
27:19so many nuances you know everyone
27:21talking about mobile phones and how
27:23people are using mobile phones but we
27:25found that so we've had to read you
27:27recently read you are and a browser you
27:29know web site because we found that
27:31people who have advanced feature phones
27:33actually you know perfet sort of like
27:35I'm or can only sort of access us via
27:38browser as opposed to downloading an app
27:39and in any case when you download an app
27:42it sucks up your data so
27:44that's really new it's a very curious
27:45thing where we are still doing a lot of
27:49work as opposed to just concentrating an
27:51app you know the app going the app way
27:53because of the mobile phone filtration
27:55so we find that the browser is equally
27:58important if not more important because
28:00of the fact that data is so expensive so
28:02when you're accessing the Internet via
28:06browser you don't have to download an
28:08app that would sort of chop up all your
28:10data yeah it also puts to rest some of
28:13the academic debates people have about
28:15whether mobile centric isn't just about
28:18like being on the mobile phone you're
28:19saying it's down to the nuance of
28:21whether you're designing for a browser
28:22versus just design mobile
28:26mobile-friendly designs as opposed to
28:28well you know the whole new
28:30concentration and apps actually there is
28:36one of the biggest problems there it's
28:37expensive so people are counting every
28:40second they spend write you on the
28:42internet right and popular really
28:45actually a lot of studies we've done
28:46especially for you know applications for
28:50governance issues they're not popular
28:52people are happy to either get their
28:53information again from the popular app
28:55so if you're good Facebook you'll
28:56probably have links to this page that
28:58also has information and that kind of
28:59thing so yeah in fact before you're
29:01investing in app you have to really
29:02check whether it's actually the
29:03appropriate technology to use for
29:05advancing your agenda right I would
29:07actually say anecdotally that's also
29:08very true in India I just came back from
29:10a trip a couple weeks ago and I noticed
29:13how very few apps anyone around me had
29:15on their phones I mean what I am curious
29:18about is whether you see people doing a
29:19lot more stuff over messaging the way
29:21we've talked about like what's happening
29:22with WeChat in China or what I tap in
29:25India and elsewhere do you have any
29:27perspectives on what where messaging
29:29plays out into all this I mean what's up
29:34is huge here but it's a millennial thing
29:36isn't it so I can you Millennials react
29:39the same where everywhere in the world
29:40and so what's up is really so is it
29:43really a millennial thing I was gonna
29:44say because I was gonna say in India
29:46what shocked me when I went whew a
29:47couple years ago was that grandmothers
29:50and aunts were using whatsapp and that's
29:52what was surprising to me there this is
29:54true but then you're like just generally
29:56all the apps so there
29:57snapchat now there's all kinds of new
29:59things that I can't keep up with and I
30:01keep getting get told about them from
30:03you know my team so what's up is huge
30:05huge but other things are becoming
30:06equally huge I think it's a trending
30:08you're like the trend something is in
30:11and then something is out and then they
30:12like happy head of the new thing coming
30:14in so I think it's general worldwide
30:15things that are trending every but
30:16what's up is huge because you can make
30:19free calls from from what's up if you
30:22have internet of course but then that
30:24means that you then if you're I think
30:26maybe middle-class when you have
30:27internet access and then you can then
30:29make cheaper calls from whatsapp
30:30compared to using the usual Talco line
30:34so mentioning very us centric apps and
30:37actually wanted to direct this to Alan
30:38to talk a bit about mix it in its heyday
30:40well say you know of the questionable
30:42honor presiding over probably the
30:44biggest tech failure in Africa but at
30:52the same time as part of the Mystics
30:53pics of what were some of the learnings
30:58it makes its success came from the fact
31:01that it made it really really cheap for
31:03people to text one another and was it so
31:05SMEs will texting was as too expensive
31:08and mix it was first mover and built
31:10this massive network effect so it's a
31:12killer you'd to collab in there you know
31:15one of the lessons is never ever go up
31:17against American companies it kind of
31:24waves what it's breaking you know what's
31:26F just just won the race it has won the
31:28race it will win the race I like WeChat
31:31and I don't think likes will WeChat
31:33aren't we underestimated but just
31:35aspirationally in our in our markets we
31:37can see that what chefs winning it's at
31:39a youth level it's at a middle age level
31:41and it's an old people label so it
31:43doesn't matter what it is and I can and
31:45I'm quite excited actually to see what's
31:47opening itself up to be a bit of a
31:49platform because if you can plug that
31:51community into whatever application
31:53you've got you know boom you don't have
31:54to reinvent the wheel and everyone's
31:56trying to reinvent the instant messaging
31:57well so I think that boaters that ship
32:00was left and what surfs won the race
32:01well it's interesting that you talk
32:02about it opening itself up into a
32:04platform because that's exactly right to
32:06see what comes next but what I think is
32:08really fascinating is a use cases where
32:11where people are actually using it less
32:13for messaging in a typical way and for
32:16example they're using it as a news
32:17source they're using it to vote in
32:20elections in certain places or to like
32:22do certain things I've seen relatives
32:24use it exactly the way you would use a
32:26social network but instead of using an
32:28actual social network they're just using
32:29messaging to do all those things like
32:31share status updates share photos etc
32:33how is the use of messaging I guess I'm
32:36trying to get a little bit more
32:37understanding of how people are using
32:38some of the messaging apps in Africa in
32:40this context and anywhere in Africa not
32:43just all over but um in this context of
32:46messaging as a broader trend in South
32:48Africa we have a massive crime problem
32:50so security is a big concern for a lot
32:53of people in South Africa and what's F
32:55has become the de facto means of
32:56Communities organizing against crime Oh
32:59streets all have you know the black lip
33:02and Street or the whatever Street has
33:04got it like a whatsapp group everyone
33:06participates it and anything that
33:08happens or any suspicious vehicles or
33:10anything you know people are all is the
33:12feedback group is whatsapp and and it's
33:17far and away the most powerful tool for
33:19something like that and the way I see
33:21this kind of evolving around yeah is one
33:24of the one of the new services we we're
33:26helping the government deploy is is the
33:30equivalent of uber but for for the
33:32police so if you see a crime in it
33:35especially in a community like a
33:36molarity or one of the townships the
33:39street names aren't be obvious the
33:41dresses aren't very obvious but if you
33:43can use GPS to pin where you are you can
33:45report it to your nearest police cars
33:46and they can kind of respond without
33:48having to go through call centers and
33:49all the translations in between well
33:51you've solved the maths problem Wow
33:53check this chat is a massive component
33:55of that you know and you need the
33:57officers to be able to communicate with
33:59the receiver citizen and vice versa and
34:01just kind of just the more feedback
34:03there is the faster people can respond
34:05and kind of get to the incident and
34:06that's where I'm intent is integral to
34:09everything that we do that we see in the
34:11app space and and what sepal is you know
34:14if you can plug what's up into it you
34:15don't have to reinvent ok perhaps
34:17another way of looking at what's up and
34:18you know some of the chats like what's
34:20up is that it's come for me it becomes
34:21so everyday that I don't even think
34:23about it it's you know
34:24people interact as how you get even you
34:26know work conferences on whatsapp
34:28everyone as you say uses what's up but
34:31what I would sort of like I'm maybe sort
34:34of like take us to is when Alan talks
34:37about when what's up came to the market
34:39and what what it did to mix it that's an
34:42interesting when the Americans come in
34:44so for example Apple music Netflix is
34:47coming in NEFAs are here Apple music is
34:50here and so what's that's going to do to
34:52the you know existing African SMEs in
34:55the market I think I'll be interesting
34:56for me to sort of hear everybody's
34:57perspective as well I guess what I
34:59really want to get at here as well to
35:00build on your question is is there a
35:02local advantage or is it not does it not
35:05apply when a global player comes in do
35:08not ever take on America so that's the
35:10goal but there's lots of things that in
35:14Silicon Valley you know people in some
35:16guys sitting in a cappuccinos cappuccino
35:18in San Francisco's just not gonna think
35:20about yeah if you've got a problem that
35:22you need to Africa and you're trying to
35:24tackle that problem and it must be
35:26unique to Africa but just not at all
35:30obvious in Silicon Valley then then you
35:32vote then you've got a shot but of
35:34course if you get any any kind of
35:35traction in into the space you you've
35:37got to make sure that someone in the
35:38states ain't gonna like to see your idea
35:40copy it and just come take you on and in
35:42the real thick capital advantage other
35:43than the you know the hugely talented
35:46aggressive you know hard-working people
35:48just the capital advantage just so
35:50overwhelming so now in my opinion you
35:52are we we invest in businesses as only
35:54if there's a network effect and if
35:55someone's already dominated the market
35:57so something like e-commerce you know
35:59Jack Ma or Baidu or $0.10 they all
36:02benefited from kind of you know kind of
36:05closed markets to the US where they
36:07could build up the network effects for
36:08e-commerce or for social and by the time
36:11they kind of opened it up to foreign
36:12competition you know it's kind of the
36:15land grab it happened and you've got
36:16this massive moat protecting you from
36:18great on Silicon Valley and there are
36:21some things like that in South Africa
36:22and I know it some places the rest of
36:24Africa but there's not a lot and you
36:27really have to have us buyer seller or
36:28friend friend network in place before or
36:30know that you can get it before anyone
36:33in America gets wind of it Alan clearly
36:35has a very specific perspective and do
36:39no I think I generally agree but of
36:42course there's something local
36:43advantages I mean important and
36:46necessary but the the thing about local
36:49advantage which is that local advantage
36:50can be bought so I treat my staff and
36:56clearly I've spent so much time training
36:59them and then you know you know whoever
37:01the American person is coming in and
37:03they have a lot more money like the
37:05Nigeria they have the capacity that they
37:07have tech capacity they have no capital
37:09capacity and it doesn't take you know a
37:12huge you would you call it increase so
37:16this make them jump am i angry about
37:18that maybe when I really sort of like oh
37:21my god I spent all this time training
37:22people but then I also don't want to
37:24have people working at Spelman for
37:26example where nobody wants to hire them
37:28so it's like you know what came first
37:30catch-22 but I think you know an apple
37:34or Amazon or I think local advantage is
37:38very important and I've talked about you
37:41know you can't be an Africa expert just
37:43by spending two weeks here but also you
37:45can't compete with the American power of
37:47you know capital and you know tech power
37:50as well so that's where how I see it so
37:52I'm with Alan on this one
37:53I'll give it maybe two examples of where
37:57local advantage is giving a quick win
37:59for some startups here one one is very
38:03well known that was a Shahidi I mean it
38:04came up from a very contextual situation
38:06and occurrence here but that was a
38:08specific use case but for them to
38:10survive they've also had to you know to
38:12embrace the Americans so you a Shahidi
38:15has a team that was from the US a team
38:17that was from Kenya on a team boards
38:18from other countries and that's how
38:19they've been able to co-opt that
38:20expertise that's ready ready in the
38:23market in the US for instance so that
38:25they're not necessarily bought out
38:26another example that's starting to come
38:28up now is the break that's being built
38:30as appropriate technology for
38:31facilitating router Wi-Fi router access
38:34right that the the idea being that you
38:37know while what may buy a router for my
38:40house in the urban area in Nairobi
38:41it may not necessarily be the most
38:43appropriate technology for
38:45beaming Wi-Fi access when I'm out in my
38:48grandmother's village you know so it
38:51needs to be something rugged something
38:52could withstand you know falling and
38:54dropping in my kind of thing now they
38:57have that local advantage by
38:58understanding that but it also becomes a
39:00game of really a game of wits in terms
39:02of once they start gaining traction as
39:04was mentioned and Sue starts gaining
39:07attention and other people start to see
39:08what you're onto how do you make sure
39:10they don't breach you to market it's
39:11something that's faster cheaper and
39:12there's the second to market advantage
39:14so it becomes a game of smarts here and
39:17it's one we're learning by you know it's
39:19baptism by fire if ever there's a case
39:21right it's fascinating to because what
39:24you're what you're describing is
39:25competition everywhere but there's also
39:27a factor here where there's a power
39:28differential between as you mentioned
39:31access to capital access to you know it
39:33could be like Chinese investors coming
39:35into India or Jeff Bezos going to India
39:39with Amazon or it could be right I mean
39:41no one can compete with that sort of
39:43deep pockets at a certain level but at
39:45the same time we do see success cases
39:47where they compete in different ways the
39:49one thing I can say about a local
39:51advantage where it really is an
39:52advantage is when like an international
39:55is coming into you know is trying to
39:57establish footprint in on the continent
40:00and the general mistake that you know
40:03you know international seem to make is
40:05that they assume that by hiring someone
40:07out of you know business school from
40:09somewhere I don't know they have you
40:12know they can do it and that's where you
40:13need the local that's what the local
40:15advantage will always you know sort of
40:17overpower it's a you know the fun
40:19because you cannot come to you know
40:21Lagos if you just you know been here one
40:23week and you cannot go to Kenya and you
40:26know set up a company without having you
40:28know the local inside the local you know
40:31nope local knowledge just sort of how to
40:33navigate the terrain and so that's where
40:36local advantage would always you beat it
40:40you know the the Klaus and the power and
40:42so I think it's just finding a way to do
40:44things in cutting collaboration
40:46reflecting on this notion of competing
40:48with business around the world and and
40:52locally any final reflections on things
40:55that people should know who are trying
40:57to build businesses in Africa yeah I
40:59went to read a blog that that Silicon
41:02Valley you know it gives you 16 matrix
41:04two checks for a starter
41:06and and a lot of people in South Africa
41:08and Africa and the rest will read those
41:09blog something that's the Holy Grail but
41:11there's only one metric and that's cash
41:12flow advertising is not a business model
41:16one day we'll sell to Google is not a
41:19business model you really need to be
41:21kind of thinking like a traditional
41:22business like how you're gonna make
41:23money pretty soon and and if you if
41:26you're not well then you're really up
41:27against some guy who's funded out of
41:29Silicon Valley so one final question
41:31that's come up a few times is thoughts
41:34on you know technology and how women are
41:39using it at all ages in in various
41:42regions of Africa you've brought up the
41:43notion of women doing things a little
41:46differently a couple of times I wanted
41:48to make sure you guys could share some
41:49thoughts on that sure the world you know
41:53the world development report by the
41:54World Bank just came out and we confirm
41:56the notion that yes much has there many
41:58women who participating online the
42:00numbers still lag behind in comparison
42:02to men and that could be seen as a you
42:05know as an indicator or existing
42:07inequality so to speak but the internet
42:10and access to it for those who do get
42:12access to it and who are able to bypass
42:15certain barriers either socially
42:17culturally you know income wise who get
42:19to participate we are seeing such
42:22opportunities to raise agency to have
42:24agency to you know speak up about issues
42:27to address and to really mainstream the
42:29idea of gender in very various
42:30considerations so for instance you know
42:32it's no longer sufficient you just have
42:35numbers of women on a panel it also goes
42:37now - we will criticize whether they
42:39actually get to be asked questions based
42:42on the expertise and not just because
42:43they're feeling a diversity quota and
42:44you see these kinds of conversations
42:46taking place online there's so many
42:48campaigns were seeing that are helping
42:50mainstream the idea taking on you know I
42:53would say misogynists who are both men
42:56and women we're seeing fantastic
42:58campaigns coming up about that
42:59sensitization on this issues in a way
43:01that's not just preachy and traditional
43:03where it's just driven by citizens were
43:06engaged in we're on platforms that
43:08facilitate its free expression so this
43:11yeah that's that there's still women who
43:12are tipping off because they're attacked
43:13and there's a lot of digital safety
43:15considerations to have and this you know
43:17it's not to make women seem like some
43:20in a sense it's just these these are
43:22just indicators of existing patriarchal
43:24structures and so it's really the
43:26Internet and access to it is really one
43:28of those things that could either
43:30perpetuate those patriarchy or start
43:32this contract deconstructing it as we as
43:35we all get connected we're probably more
43:37likely both actually society does exist
43:41in contradiction so we in fact as a
43:45parting shot I also wanted to add
43:46there's a fact that we need to have more
43:49research supported to really an a this
43:53qualitative insight yeah that tends
43:55complement these numbers that we're
43:57getting I mean I don't know whether to
43:58be offended or amused by the statistic
44:00you know that they're more mobile phones
44:02and toilets I get back statistic but
44:04then I'm like what are we what do we say
44:06you know right what does that mean
44:09right that's a good point we use it
44:10actually I'm gonna confess it we use
44:12that statistic ourselves I've linked to
44:14that or quoted that in various pieces
44:16and you're right to call call BS on it a
44:19little bit I mean not be as necessarily
44:20but just say like what does they even
44:21mean us state so they're more mobile
44:29phones and there are toilets does that
44:32apply across the metric if we using it
44:35as a as a comparative oh is it just for
44:37Africa in the developing world so
44:39there's a need for more important
44:40monuments research to strengthen and
44:42serve flesh up this numbers being thrown
44:44out so let's not just quantify Africa
44:46let's bring out the qualitative insights
44:48that bring out its diversity and also
44:51make for wise investment decisions
44:53actually I wanted to talk about like you
44:55know the idea of women in technology and
44:57how it's been niggling about niggling at
45:00me for a while now and I think the the
45:02phrasing itself is of creating or sort
45:05of incubating you know whole group of
45:07women who are getting then gonna have
45:09more no self-esteem because or
45:11inferiority complex because within
45:13assume that you have to be great at math
45:15due to work in a tech company for
45:17example and I feel like these when we
45:21create these things and no help women or
45:23we need to have them and do more math
45:25these are like nine-year-old we're
45:26talking about on 12 year old and 14 year
45:28olds there's a whole group of 25 year
45:30old and 22 Ellsworth long out of school
45:33who don't need to be told that they just
45:34need to be taught that they need to
45:35excel in whatever they're doing because
45:37they can do anything and so I'm worried
45:40about the the terminology that is
45:41suddenly creeping up in the past two
45:43years about oh how women need to be
45:45encouraged to be you know in stem and
45:47all that stuff so I hope that we can
45:48talk about these things more frequently
45:50and to the like and put right to them
45:51well I actually agree with you
45:53personally as well I think that that
45:54discourse is important but also
45:56troubling when it puts this hierarchy of
45:59skills that sort of not honoring some of
46:02the more nuanced qualitative sciences as
46:05well as which is a meta theme in this
46:07conversation as well Allan in Quito and
46:10ninjetta I just want to say thank you
46:12again for taking the time this is an
46:14incredible conversation we're gonna
46:16continue it I'm sure in the near future
46:18and the first of many and thank you
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