00:07hello and welcome to the a 16z podcast
00:10I'm Hannah and I'm here today with a
00:12Halloween special for you which includes
00:14rats boiling hands and cauldrons witches
00:17superstitions pirates and much more it's
00:19a conversation I had with Peter Leeson
00:21author and economist at George Mason
00:23University who calls himself not just an
00:25economist but a collector of curiosa in
00:28his latest book just out WTF an economic
00:33Leeson looks at just that at all
00:34historical weirdness the strangest
00:37practices and rituals that mankind has
00:39been engaged in we discuss how people's
00:41beliefs themselves can be used as a kind
00:43of technology in the broadest possible
00:45terms for producing better social
00:48outcomes your argument is that what
00:50seems like irrational totally senseless
00:53behavior some of the stuff that strikes
00:55us as the absolute weirdest things that
00:58we can imagine happening historically
01:00are not at all irrational and weird that
01:02there's all sorts of reasons why they
01:04make sense right yeah exactly people
01:06engage in all kinds of stuff that seems
01:08batshit crazy but if you examine it
01:11through the lens of economics if you
01:12just think about in terms of basic
01:15constraints you know the limitations
01:17that people confront given their
01:18environments and the incentives that the
01:20things that they do in the beliefs that
01:22they hold and so on half on their
01:24behavior you can begin to see that you
01:26know what looks really weird actually
01:28you know I think makes a lot of sense
01:30and is in many ways not so different
01:32from some of the practices and rituals
01:34that we take for granted is completely
01:36normal today so for example what what
01:39was the weirdest one that you were the
01:41most baffled by when you first
01:43encountered it I think the one that
01:45caused the most head-scratching was the
01:48criminal prosecution of insects and
01:50rodents in Renaissance Italy France and
01:53Switzerland wow that's definitely that's
01:56really weird why were they being tried
01:58and for what crimes well they were being
02:00tried for having violated the property
02:02rights of farmers in these areas just
02:05like contemporary agricultural
02:07communities sometimes they ended up
02:08being plagued by you know cockroaches or
02:11crickets or locusts or rats ravaging
02:14their wheat and so the people in these
02:18communities would basically get to get
02:19and they would bring a case you know for
02:22prosecuting whatever the the nefarious
02:24critters were to the equivalent of like
02:26a modern-day district attorney who's
02:28sort of in their area and they and he
02:30would file a legal complaint with the
02:32court and these were a Clea state courts
02:35courts that were presided over by
02:36members of the church is this after
02:38they've presumably already tried to get
02:40these insects out and they're like okay
02:43they're not leaving I need to bring in
02:44the law this was sort of sort of the
02:46last resort pesticide for them so if you
02:49look at Renaissance era or medieval you
02:52go back even further pest control
02:54manuals basically you know sort of
02:55pesticide instruction manuals they
02:58display you know basically methods that
03:01were not very effective one of the
03:03thoughts was that if you were if your
03:04fields were ravaged by rats you should
03:06take water that a cat had bathed in and
03:09sprinkle it over the fields oh my gosh
03:11because of some kind of essence of cat
03:13that was the idea exactly unsurprisingly
03:16that didn't really do the trick and so
03:18after you tried a couple of these not
03:20very effective sort of ordinary remedies
03:22these instruction manuals would suggest
03:24you you know you ought to consider
03:26asking the church to intervene because
03:28the church can get God to use his divine
03:30pesticide sort it out
03:33so they lots of these complaints they
03:35went to the church and they said you
03:36know we think these these critters are
03:38ravaging our crops can you please you
03:39know ask God to basically drive them
03:42how elaborate a charade was this this
03:44kind of trial gonna take weeks or months
03:46I documented several hundred at least
03:49and the trials often lasted long they
03:53could they certainly would last weeks
03:54they could last many months and how long
03:58they lasted depended upon how deep into
04:01the charade basically the presiding
04:03court was so the crickets or the the
04:07rats would be appointed defense
04:08counselors that you know defense lawyers
04:10who would represent them and the cases
04:13would be argued in detail again often at
04:15length and there would be continuances
04:17for the for the critters because they
04:19weren't responding to the summons to
04:20appear before the court elaborate
04:22defenses of the critters would be
04:24offered by their lawyers such as what I
04:26can't even wait wait the critters had
04:29lawyers too yes yes and they didn't just
04:31they were appointed as as lawyers some
04:34of the the what were then considered
04:36like the best legal minds in the world
04:39essentially because these are these are
04:40the most developed parts of the globe
04:42during this time but what rights did the
04:44critter said they were prosecuted just
04:46like they were people so they had all of
04:48the rights that would have attached to a
04:50person who had been accused of stealing
04:52somebody somebody's crops for example if
04:55you look at the records here basically
04:57the the trials unfolded just like they
04:59would again if there were people
05:01involved and this the stuff is
05:03hysterical I mean you have you have
05:05judges basically you know giving a
05:07continuance to to again some mice
05:09because you know cats interfere with
05:11them on their way to the trial or
05:14allowing flies to have a continuance
05:17because some the defense counselor had
05:19argued that some of the Flies were
05:20pregnant and so it was hard for them to
05:22make it and the court countenanced each
05:24of these absolutely phosphorus claims so
05:27why did this keep going on I mean people
05:30must have had a sense of humor about it
05:31then was it working in some way that's
05:34the bringing to logic of economics part
05:36to bear so this is in the period leading
05:37up before Protestants emerge on the
05:40scene you've got these what the church
05:42branded as heretics during this era and
05:44they were called the Waldo seon's they
05:46were actually pretty ordinary Catholics
05:48for the most part except for the fact
05:49that they denied the church's power to
05:52excommunicate people and to
05:54anathematized people to sort of divinely
05:56curse them if people were misbehaving
05:58from the church's perspective okay the
06:01other thing that they denied was that
06:02the church had the right to collect from
06:04citizens tithes oh that's a pretty
06:07substantial shift yes at that time yeah
06:09it was a huge thing because tithes you
06:11know it's basically a form of taxing
06:13your your religious population and
06:15that's how the church earned most of its
06:16revenue so the church did not like this
06:18the church did not like this at all
06:20because the way that the church enforced
06:22tithe compliance from farmers ordinarily
06:25was by threatening to damn them to hell
06:27if people didn't pony up essentially it
06:29was really hard to determine if somebody
06:32you know declared a poor crop harvest
06:34that year whether or not the person was
06:36just evading their tithes or they really
06:38had just had you know a bad weather year
06:39for instance so one workaround for that
06:42the tide collector can't determine it
06:44well God knows everything right so God
06:46can determine it so if we say God is
06:49going to punish everybody who is evading
06:51ties and he always knows if you're
06:53evading your tithes and you believe that
06:55you're very likely to pay what you owe
06:56which most people did until those damned
06:58Waldensian scheme around and what they
07:00started doing was in spreading their
07:02message eroding the citizens the farmers
07:06faith that the church had the power to
07:08actually ask God to divinely condemn
07:11them for not paying the tithes and
07:13suggested to them they didn't need to
07:14pay and it also separated a belief from
07:17God and a belief that you needed to pay
07:20those tithes right so you could still do
07:21one but believe the other was not true
07:24yep absolutely and so the church faces
07:26this threat basically to its coffers and
07:28what it needs to do is to somehow try
07:31and bolster citizens belief that they in
07:33fact first of all they do need to pay
07:34their tithes and secondly that they do
07:36have the power to punish you divinely
07:39through God if you don't pay and that's
07:42where the animal trials come in so at
07:45these trials the punishment if if the if
07:48the species of insect or rodent was
07:50convicted guess what an Athlon and
07:52excommunication for the critters and so
07:55the basic idea is that because the
07:58church was using the same punishment on
08:00the insects and rodents that were
08:03plaguing farmers that farmers were
08:05coming to seek help with ridding if the
08:07church could somehow show that that
08:09worked those threats of divine damnation
08:11worked against the pests then this is
08:14insane you know what the stuff is real
08:16and if it's real it's gonna work on me
08:18too I better pay my taxes exactly but
08:21did it work I mean it did if the farmers
08:23come before the court and say the rats
08:25are eating my crops and the church says
08:27ok we're gonna try them all they're
08:29guilty and now we're gonna punish them
08:31in order for the citizens belief to be
08:33bolstered the rats need to actually
08:36leave after the church basically damps
08:38them yeah it all kind of rests on that I
08:40find it hard to believe if the animals
08:42aren't even showing up for trial they're
08:44gonna listen to the verdict however and
08:48here's what the key to making it work or
08:50making it seem to work was as follows is
08:52that you know the thing about about
08:56is that their itinerant right on a long
08:58enough timeline crickets die or
09:00predators drive away mice or for other
09:03reasons that have something to do with
09:05Mother Nature they either perish or
09:07driven off the property they move on to
09:09plague a different property than the
09:10ones they were formerly plaguing as a
09:12result of that by dragging out the trial
09:14sufficiently long the church could
09:17basically make sure that it always got
09:19the outcome that it wanted whether or
09:21not the crops were okay if you didn't
09:24have a good yield the trials still
09:26ongoing and eventually they leave the
09:28court is waiting for the pests to
09:30basically depart so they can claim
09:31credit for it because it is the threat
09:33of being convicted here that's scary
09:35that's supposed to be driving them away
09:36so if the if the pests are you know
09:39pretty obstinate and it's been a few
09:41weeks and they're still there eating the
09:42farmers crops just draw the trial out
09:44exactly keep dragging it out until
09:47eventually they do leave and when they
09:48do I look miraculously see our trial and
09:52our prosecution and our threat of divine
09:55damnation was able to drive the pests
09:58away which in turn bolstered the
09:59citizens belief in the the church's
10:02power to use it against them as tide
10:03evaders so it was really a tool of the
10:06church to get people to continue to
10:08believe in the face of argument against
10:11those beliefs and pay the money that
10:13they wanted them to pay yeah it's a
10:15theme that actually kind of runs
10:16throughout the book in different
10:18scenarios this idea of using people's
10:20beliefs their superstitions their
10:22scientific false beliefs as a technology
10:24for achieving some outcome that they
10:27want to achieve could be taxed
10:29compliance or it could be something else
10:31so it's using the belief itself as a
10:33tool essentially the belief becomes a
10:35tool the institutions that emerge in
10:38this case vermin trials as a way to sort
10:41of leverage the belief in order to
10:42produce the outcome desired in what is
10:45the dearth of other tools to do so
10:47right like there isn't even the printing
10:48press all those things are not at hand
10:51yet you can kind of think about in part
10:53beliefs as a substitute technology for
10:57the sort of physical technologies that
10:58we take for granted in a modern world
11:00many of which as you point out
11:01historically didn't exist so naturally
11:04they relied more on beliefs as a form of
11:06a tool or technology to produce outcomes
11:09what we ordinarily think about is
11:11technology it's so kind of fine-tuned
11:14you know you sort of have to be very
11:15aware of an internal dialogue going on
11:18in people's minds and then think about
11:20what it will take to manipulate that and
11:23be willing to put in a certain amount of
11:25subtlety and long term playing out
11:27absolutely and this was definitely a
11:29long game because the this criminal
11:32prosecution of insects and rodents was
11:33occurring over two hundred and fifty
11:35year period so it was very long by
11:38definition it needed to be a long thing
11:40as you pointed out well I want to get
11:41kind of spooky because it's Halloween
11:44but I loved the section about judicial
11:47ordeals and you hear these stories about
11:50trial by fire the witchcraft trials
11:52where they would try to drown witches
11:55can you describe a little bit what those
11:56judicial ordeals were those are one of
11:59those classic sort of horror story
12:01historical scary things that we just
12:04don't get so even though I think most
12:07people probably associate judicial or
12:10deals with dunkey witches in water the
12:12heyday of ordeals was actually like a
12:14400-year period between the ninth and
12:16the 13th centuries and that period of
12:19judicial ordeals instead were used not
12:21to prosecute sort more for the most part
12:23more exotic crimes like witchcraft but
12:27they were used to prosecute accusations
12:28of completely traditional ordinary
12:30criminality like somebody stole
12:32something from you or somebody committed
12:36a murder they were used to to try and
12:37find fact to determine the guilt or
12:40innocence of the accused in cases
12:41involving those regular crimes and was
12:44it for everything from you know
12:46pickpocketing to murder I mean it was it
12:48across the spectrum like that in the
12:49similar way that using you know vermin
12:53trials was a sort of last resort of
12:55citizens to drive away pests from their
12:58crops the legal systems during this
13:01period you know would try and use
13:03ordinary forms of evidence to figure out
13:04if the crime had been committed right
13:06they would first of all ask were there
13:07any witnesses and then what do we know
13:09about that the problem is that that
13:11doesn't really work well in an era where
13:13there aren't like something there isn't
13:14anything even as basic as street lights
13:16to shed some light literal light on
13:18whether or not somebody had stabbed
13:19somebody in an alleyway so to speak and
13:23word of mouth in a nest of like neighbor
13:25relationships and you know all sorts of
13:28social tangles and resentments and long
13:31history who knows who has what motive
13:33and why exactly so they needed a better
13:36way to try and figure out if somebody
13:37was guilty of the crime of which they
13:39had been accused and their way of doing
13:41that this is again conducted by clergy
13:43so it's priests who are doing this they
13:45boiled a pot of water and they threw a
13:46stone or a ring into it and then they
13:49asked the the accused to plunge his arm
13:52and fish the object out of the water and
13:53if his arm was boiled by the water if it
13:57showed signs of having been scalded and
13:59burned up he was considered guilty of
14:01the crime and if it didn't he was
14:03exonerated it seems like you'd have a
14:05lot of people with boiled arms walking
14:08around in a society like this and that's
14:09one of the things that got me thinking
14:11that the clued to thinking about the
14:13economics the hidden sort of incentives
14:15in this practice which seems like a
14:17totally stupid thing to do is that you
14:19would expect exactly as you as you say
14:21people walking around with their arms
14:22having been boiled but if you look at
14:24the historical evidence it turns out the
14:26overwhelming majority of people who
14:28supposedly plunged their arms into
14:30boiling water were in fact exonerated I
14:32think a lot of people's intuitions that
14:33when you tell them about an ordeal of
14:35boiling water is that always you know
14:37it's like torture to basically get
14:39people to confess but if it was torture
14:42it was a pretty damn ineffective torture
14:44because it didn't in fact inflict harm
14:46on the vast majority of people who
14:48underwent it so what was the reason they
14:50weren't getting boiled to pants it goes
14:53back again to thinking about beliefs and
14:55superstitions in particular as a
14:57technology for producing socially
14:59superior outcomes a way of improving
15:02society and it worked like this so these
15:05ordeals were based on a medieval
15:07superstition called judicium day which
15:09means the judgment of God in Latin and
15:12the idea was that if you were guilty God
15:15would let the boiling water burn you as
15:17a way of showing to the court that you
15:19had committed the crime but if you were
15:21innocent he would show that to the court
15:23by performing a miracle that prevented
15:25the water from boiling you so if you
15:27think about people of this time as
15:29having that belief thinking that if
15:31they're innocent God won't boil them if
15:33they're guilty God will boil them and
15:35show that they're guilty
15:36you can begin to think about how this
15:38would affect an accused criminals
15:40incentive to be willing to undergo the
15:43ordeal right so suppose that you believe
15:46in this judicium Dei superstition so if
15:48you committed the crime
15:49well you expect that if you plunge your
15:51arm into the boiling water you're gonna
15:53get boiled the rags and on top of that
15:55you're gonna then be convicted and
15:56therefore have to face whatever the the
15:58punishment is for committing that crime
16:00you could do better by just confessing
16:02your crime right there at a minimum
16:04you're still gonna face the punishment
16:05for being convicted but at least you
16:07won't have your arm boiled to rags on
16:08top of it right might as well take the
16:10smaller pain you're more likely to
16:12confess but think about it if you're
16:15innocent you know that you didn't commit
16:16the crime and you believe in the
16:17judicium day superstition well you think
16:20that when you put your arm in the water
16:21not only will you not be boiled no harm
16:23will come to you but the court will now
16:25learn the fact that you're innocent you
16:27have the exact reversed incentive than
16:29if you're guilty which is to be willing
16:31to plunge your arm into the water that
16:32means that the priests who are
16:34conducting the ordeal know that
16:36conditional on observing your
16:38willingness when confronted with the
16:40option of undergoing your deal your
16:41willingness to be willing to do so you
16:44are probably much more likely to be
16:45innocent than guilty in other words God
16:47doesn't actually of course out you
16:49reveal your guilt or innocence you sort
16:50of out yourself by the choice that you
16:52make with respect in response to the
16:54specter of undergoing the ordeal it's
16:57by your very choice but isn't there an
17:00incentive to accept your guilt if it's a
17:04small crime in those two you know what I
17:07mean like if I'm like I wasn't actually
17:09guilty of like parking my car here but I
17:12don't want to do I don't want to go to
17:14trial and like risk having my hand
17:15boiled off so I'll just pay the fine
17:17there is potentially if the if two
17:21things are true one if the punishments
17:23if the punishment for crimes is not set
17:25optimally and or importantly if you
17:29don't have full belief in the
17:31superstition so if you have full belief
17:32in the superstition it's always better
17:35to undergo it because you know that
17:37you're not going to be burned for
17:38certain because God gods get anything to
17:41not burn you precisely and that's so
17:43you'll have no punishment which is
17:44better than even a very small punishment
17:46so as long as you have complete faith
17:48that the ordeal is real
17:49it's not a risk I see yes you'll still
17:52do it but there is this thing you know
17:54important thing which is everybody
17:55wasn't a perfect believer of course in
17:57the Middle Ages and so what did they
17:59need to do about skeptics well and also
18:02I wonder about the belief on the trial
18:05side because the priests who are doing
18:08this kind of know well the criminal is
18:10already out of themselves we don't need
18:11to wait for God to actually boil the
18:13water presumably right now that you're
18:16willing to undergo the ordeal the priest
18:18knows that you're probably innocent but
18:20in order to find you innocent when you
18:21stick your arm in the water for the
18:22system to work the water needs to
18:24ultimately not boil you and the question
18:26is well how did how do we achieve that
18:28and the answer is the priest since he
18:30knows that you're probably innocent
18:31needs to make sure that the water isn't
18:33boiling and if you look at instruction
18:35manuals that priests of this era had for
18:37conducting ordeals what you'll find is a
18:40whole bunch of fishy business where they
18:42essentially tell you to do things like
18:44you know you'll boil the water in
18:45private so that nobody can see which
18:47means you might in fact not boil the
18:49water at all right you sprinkle holy
18:52water and scare quotes sprinkle over the
18:55cauldron before the guy plunges his arm
18:57in which gives you a chance
18:58pour cold water in so that it the water
19:00isn't actually boiling a whole bunch of
19:03things that they can do to essentially
19:04in fact they're instructed to do to
19:06manipulate the water to make sure that
19:08it won't in fact the person undergoing
19:10it that's what I mean about the belief
19:12on that side because the priest
19:13presumably are you know believe more
19:16than anyone that God is there meeting
19:19out justice but they're then kind of
19:21manipulating behind the scenes how do
19:23they reconcile their beliefs with that
19:26it's certainly possible that priests
19:28were well aware of the fact that the
19:30system was based upon their manipulation
19:33and consciously manipulated it but
19:34there's another possibility I when I
19:36talk about this to people
19:37they tend to be very skeptical of that
19:39possibility all that's required for it
19:41to work is that priests do manipulate
19:43but that doesn't mean that priests in
19:45manipulating the waters temperature have
19:47to believe that they're actually
19:48manipulating it that's the other
19:50possibilities that you're turning down
19:51the dial on the stove so to speak but
19:53you're at your arm is being guided by
19:55Christ to turn down the dial on the
19:57stove so it's not necessarily
19:58incompatible with your faith that's
20:00fascinating so is the Witchcraft Trials
20:03different in some way or were they
20:05another manifestation of this 400 years
20:07later they're quite different because of
20:09the way the beliefs were being used
20:10there were no pretend stones to sink
20:14them they were all real stones there was
20:16no manipulation that's right they're not
20:19actually for the most part trying to
20:20figure out did they really commit
20:22witchcraft they're mostly just trying to
20:24get people to who are being prosecuted
20:26to admit that they're witches your deals
20:28are about finding fact when you don't
20:30know there's about doing the same thing
20:32that contemporary legal systems do but
20:34witch trials were about basically
20:36extorting confessions from people that
20:39you wanted to hear so rather than using
20:41ordeal what you would do as well just
20:43torture them and that's in fact what
20:45they typically did so even though it
20:46sort of historically looks like the same
20:48kind of trial it wasn't at all let's
20:52talk a little bit about superstition
20:54because in this theme of you know using
20:56your beliefs as a kind of early
20:59technological tool what how does
21:01superstitions work what are some of the
21:04ways in which superstitions behave in
21:06this manner I think about superstitions
21:08as just a scientifically false belief
21:11that scientifically false belief could
21:13be judicium day the idea that God
21:15intervenes in judicial matters to tell
21:17us if somebody's guilty or not but it
21:19could be something that doesn't have any
21:22religious component at all to it for a
21:24contemporary example which is actually
21:26closely related to medieval ordeals
21:28polygraph tests oops so-called lie
21:31detectors right is the science so vague
21:34that that you could call that a
21:35superstition totally horseshit like
21:37astrology there are people who believe
21:39that polygraph tests are actually
21:41capable of physiologically measuring
21:44whether or not someone is lying or
21:45telling the truth but the scientific
21:46community overwhelmingly incorrectly
21:49rejects them but doesn't our justice
21:51system kind of believe in them well it's
21:54a kind of double sided thing the reason
21:56that in most jurisdictions and most is
21:58not at all but in most jurisdictions
22:00polygraph evidence is not admissible is
22:03because there was a Supreme Court ruling
22:05famously that declared essentially
22:07lie-detector tests are and so
22:10as a result we're not going to allow
22:12them to be used as evidence in
22:13courtrooms that's why most American
22:15however American law enforcement so the
22:19CIA the FBI the LAPD they rely on
22:22polygraph tests all the time for
22:25purposes that are ultimately oftentimes
22:27inputs into our judicial system and the
22:29thing about lie detectors is you can't
22:31physiologically measure whether or not
22:33someone is lying or telling the truth
22:35but the thing is as long as people
22:37believe that they're real then just like
22:40ordeals they have the power to affect
22:42our incentives and as a result the power
22:45to be used as a technology to get at the
22:49truth ultimately toward the end of
22:51improving our criminal justice system or
22:53improving truth-telling more generally
22:55so it's a performative thing basically
22:57yeah it works just like medieval
23:00judicial ordeals do if you believe that
23:02the lie detector test can it will
23:04actually you know out you if you're
23:06you're lying you are less likely to be
23:09willing to take it you're more likely to
23:10confess maybe to get a better plea deal
23:12by fessing up upfront that thing to
23:15undertake it so if they see that you're
23:17willing to take it they know that now
23:19there may be a better chance that this
23:20guy is telling the truth and so they
23:21then pretend to interpret the squiggly
23:23lines to be like oh yes you certainly he
23:26certainly knows two things so the lines
23:28don't matter jack it's just the
23:30performance of I agree I don't agree and
23:33everything around that that is I think
23:35an economic way of thinking about lie
23:38detector tests that is rooted in
23:39superstition incentives and shows that
23:42in a way despite all the centuries that
23:44have passed we face very similar
23:47problems to our medieval ancestors for
23:49example and we actually have pretty
23:50similar technologies in the broadest
23:53sense of addressing those problems I
23:55want to touch once on pirates if we can
23:58because it is Halloween and you are also
24:01known for your work on the economics of
24:03pirates are there pirate beliefs that
24:06function like this that that pirates
24:09sort of used as tools of their
24:11interactions or their account economic
24:14relationships with each other early 18th
24:16century Caribbean pirates couldn't rely
24:18obviously on government to ensure
24:20cooperation among them because they were
24:21engaged in theft so they had to they had
24:23to figure out a way to rule themselves
24:25there is a perhaps way in which per
24:28beliefs helped to facilitate that
24:31cooperation pirates used a form of early
24:34constitutional democracy in order to
24:36govern their ships and those
24:37constitutions were concerned in large
24:40part with constraining the power of
24:42pirate leaders the captain and the
24:44quartermaster important officers on a
24:45pirate ship what was the constituency
24:47each ship had its own Constitution and
24:50had its own crew and when you switch
24:52ships and then there was a new crew that
24:54was formed a new constitution was formed
24:56as well that would govern it was this
24:58happening all the time new crew we get a
25:00new constitution every time yeah which
25:01makes sense because these were
25:03consensual social contracts what the
25:05rules might need to look like might vary
25:07at least a little bit and what a person
25:09would be willing to sign on to might
25:11vary as the composition of the crew
25:12varied but most of the problem
25:14situations that pirates confronted in
25:16engaging in piracy were similar
25:18regardless of which captain you're under
25:19regardless of which particular crew you
25:21are in which I think is why it is that
25:23the examples of pirate constitutions
25:25that we have looked very very similar
25:27there's a sort of template a pirate
25:29Constitution template what kinds of
25:31things would be agreed to in those
25:33constitutions maybe first and foremost
25:35they were employment contracts so you
25:36would be agreeing to a specific share
25:40which you can think about as sort of the
25:41wage scheme a compensation scheme for
25:44the Pirates you know I'm gonna get one
25:46share of each prize that we take that
25:48was a key thing that was happening
25:49another key thing was radical social
25:52insurance the kind of workman's comp
25:53system you know if you lost your left
25:55arm your left arm in battle with a
25:57potential prize you would receive that
26:00of the cruise common booty that had
26:02seized compensation of a certain number
26:03of pieces of eight for that fact if you
26:06lost your right arm you might get more
26:07in social insurance payout your left eye
26:11your left leg right leg each pended got
26:13its own got its own specific payout
26:16which presumably reflected the value of
26:18those appendages in piratical employment
26:20it was the governing laws of these mini
26:22economies so how did they enforce them
26:24and what was the threat that enforced
26:26these beliefs and this compliance with
26:29this constitution pirates just like we
26:31do use democracy so if a captain
26:33violated the Constitution the contract
26:35with the crew by overstepping about the
26:37powers that the crew had granted to him
26:41the crew could and often did with
26:43pirates vote the rascal out and install
26:46a new captain or quartermaster in his
26:48place there doesn't seem to be many
26:49cases basically when the captain
26:51resisted because if the whole if the
26:52crew votes to remove you from office
26:55probably not the captain's best interest
26:57to put up a fight since we wrote down in
26:59our contract ahead of time that we all
27:00agreed to that says this is what it
27:02means for him to abuse his power and
27:04this is what it does not well this is
27:06when he is not abusing his power now any
27:08action he engages in probably is
27:10interpreted by us as an overstep or
27:12legitimate in the same way and it's
27:15pretty clear unlike our giant sprawling
27:17democracy that's where this kind of
27:19microcosm aspect would be helpful I love
27:21the way that you're not only solving
27:24these kind of historical mysteries like
27:26the way we use our human belief as a
27:28kind of lever and tool to structure the
27:31relationships we want thank you so much
27:33Peter that was such a pleasure having
27:34you on the a 16z podcast
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