00:00hi and welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm
00:03Hana and today's episode is a hallway
00:05style conversation in honor of
00:07back-to-school season on the economics
00:09of parenting but not in quite the way
00:10you'd think so much of the discussion
00:12around parenting in tech today is about
00:14the use of specific products or devices
00:16so in this conversation we wanted to
00:18broaden the context and instead explore
00:21what it means to use economics as a
00:22framework for understanding the nature
00:24of parenting for example using game
00:27theory to think about parenting in terms
00:29of our interactions are choices
00:30incentives but also the way broader
00:33economic environments change parenting
00:35styles in different cultures and last
00:38but not least how tech might be
00:39impacting all of that the first voice
00:42you'll hear is Kevin Zollman professor
00:43at CMU a game theorist and philosopher
00:45and co-author of the recent book the
00:48game theorist guide to parenting and the
00:49second voice is Fabrizio Zilla Botti a
00:52macro economist at Yale working on a
00:54book called love money and parenting one
00:57of the real central struggles for
00:58parents I think is making this balance
01:01between you know what makes life easy
01:04today what gets your kid to stop crying
01:07or to stop fighting with you or whatever
01:09and what makes a good kid in the long
01:11run you know you can give them an extra
01:13cookie now and they'll stop bugging you
01:15for it but also you're not teaching them
01:17good eating habits we try to find ways
01:19of planning and designing their
01:21interactions with their kids so that
01:23they can get their kids to do things
01:26that are both in the long-term interest
01:28of the of the child but also make life
01:30easy on the parents and that's where
01:32game theory comes in and that's exactly
01:34where game theory comes in yeah we
01:36describe game theory as the science of
01:38strategic interaction and the idea here
01:41is that anytime you've got two different
01:42people whose interests aren't exactly
01:45the same you know you have a child who
01:47wants another cookie for dessert and a
01:49parent who wants their kid to finish
01:50their vegetables and so one of the
01:52focuses of game theory has been on how
01:55can you create strategic interactions
01:57games between two different individuals
01:59so that both individuals can come out in
02:02a way that's good for both of them can
02:04you give us an example of the ways in
02:06which that that tends to play out in
02:08sort of real concrete daily parenting
02:10dilemmas you're driving on vacation the
02:13they're harassing one another in the
02:15backseat and dad turns it around and
02:17says if you guys don't behave we're
02:18canceling the vacation right which is
02:21you're never supposed to do because then
02:23inevitably it happens what do you do
02:25then yeah exactly every parent knows
02:27you're not supposed to do it but they
02:29all say everyone find themselves doing
02:31it nonetheless in game theory terms this
02:33is called a non credible threat and the
02:37reason that it's a non credible threat
02:39is because the kids if they're
02:41sophisticated enough and most kids are
02:43will realize that mom or dad doesn't
02:47want to cancel the vacation any more
02:48than the kid does right you're in the
02:50car it's packed you're on your way
02:52there's no way exactly and by not
02:54designing the interaction in the right
02:57way you end up putting yourselves in a
02:58no-win situation the kids have called
03:01your bluff you don't want to cancel the
03:02vacation but you also don't want to
03:04establish a reputation with your kids
03:06that your threats mean nothing and so
03:08one of the things that game theory
03:10teaches you want to design punishments
03:12or rewards for your kids that are
03:15possible for you to follow through on
03:17and that you want to follow through on
03:18so instead of going to the amusement
03:20park in the morning maybe you'll go to a
03:22museum that's a threat that's credible
03:25because the kids know you'll want to go
03:27to the museum right but that you would
03:28be happy to follow through on if the
03:30time come for bricio as a macroeconomist
03:32your work kind of telescopes out and
03:34looks at parenting from that macro level
03:37in your work you talk about just to set
03:39a little context the three major
03:40parenting styles authoritarian where
03:43parents really strongly determine what's
03:45allowed and isn't and don't give kids
03:47much opportunity for feedback or
03:49backtalk really permissive parenting
03:52which is really the opposite where
03:53parents give kids lots of freedom and
03:55choice and even sometimes kind of allow
03:57them to be the leaders and then
03:59authoritative which is a kind of
04:00positive middle ground and the way that
04:02we're I think being told now to parent
04:05where parents are in charge but allow
04:06kids some agency as well so how do those
04:09different styles play out in different
04:11situations and different contexts we
04:15think that parents have some common
04:17goals in different part of the world but
04:21that the environment and the constraints
04:23they are subject to are different
04:26especially the change
04:27in economic inequality yes and we look
04:31at variation across nations over time so
04:35comparing the seventh is with the ninth
04:39is or or the turn of the century
04:41comparing Sweden with the United States
04:43or China so on the one hand we think
04:47that most parents want their children to
04:51this altruistic concern at the same time
04:55you know happiness is there is a concept
04:57that refers to the present and to the
05:00future so you can have a very happy
05:02child and a less happy adult depending
05:05also on some choices that are made
05:07during childhood or when a youngster so
05:11we postulate that parents are somehow
05:13think the good for their children but
05:16with that with the stronger emphasis on
05:18their future children also care about
05:21their own future but somehow they are a
05:24bit more present oriented and that's the
05:26part we call paternalism that's the
05:28reason why parents try to influence the
05:31choice or the views of the world of
05:34children interesting so you're
05:36describing the interaction of parenting
05:38basically as this combination of
05:39paternalism and altruism but really
05:42having to do with whether you're
05:43thinking about the now or the future I
05:45mean but aren't those different ways of
05:47seeing things basically kids really
05:49thinking about the now and parents
05:51thinking about their kids future and
05:52what's best for the future isn't that
05:54kind of just the definition of parenting
05:56there is an element of common interest
05:59between parents and children you know to
06:00drive to success and then there is an
06:03element of dissonance of the diversity
06:05of views for parents care more for their
06:09children when they will be adult whether
06:12it's more the economic part of it or
06:15other way of enjoying life when we think
06:18about parent and children if we think
06:20that parent and children value them
06:23differently so if both parents and
06:25children think that you know being a
06:28is a good thing this type of conflict
06:32does not arise it's really about whether
06:34they're aligned with their children or
06:36have a different point of view
06:38absolutely so where do these two ways of
06:39interacting meet then this
06:41sort of large picture of parents and
06:43children being aligned or not about the
06:46future and the now and the more micro
06:49daily strategic interactions that Kevin
06:52described games your typical stipulates
06:55that payoffs are essentially given
06:58cultural economics have tried to put a
07:01new level of elaboration on that so the
07:03idea that one of the investment an agent
07:07can make is in in changing somehow the
07:10payoff of the other we reason that way
07:13when we try to persuade children you
07:15know the children are are fighting on
07:18the back of the car another way some
07:20parents act is to try to convince day by
07:25day children that fighting in the back
07:28of the car is not worthy and it has some
07:31negative moral aspect if you go back one
07:36cent or more my grandparents my grand
07:39grandparents generation most of the
07:42interaction between parents of children
07:44was regulated by restrictions so parents
07:46were telling children what they could do
07:48and what they could not do we think they
07:50were doing it on the ground again on
07:52this altruism and paternalism
07:53right the same the same driving factors
07:55but it was coming out another way one of
07:58the changes that we have seen in the way
08:00in which parents strategically influence
08:03the way children behave is is driven by
08:07this change in the in the system of
08:09incentive and also in how much control
08:12and monitored parents can exercise we
08:15think that this is one of the reasons
08:16why a certain way of authoritarian
08:19parenting style has declined corporal
08:23punishment we see decline everywhere in
08:26the world one of the reason we think is
08:27the its effectiveness is lower in the
08:30new environment in a new economic
08:32environment how interesting it's not
08:34because our cultures have changed
08:35because it's actually less effective in
08:37our in what we want the outcome to be
08:39yes there is a two ways interaction
08:42between culture and economics once a
08:45certain set of behaviors become more or
08:48less acceptable then they become also
08:50ingrain Kevin do you see these parenting
08:53styles also in sort of
08:54how you think about your game theorist
08:57lens of looking at parenting
08:58interactions or I guess a bigger way to
09:00ask that question is what do you see the
09:02role of culture playing in these
09:04particular dilemmas and conflicts that
09:06parents and children have I think
09:07culture plays a huge role I think that
09:09you know the fact that children are in a
09:12lot of respects much more independent of
09:14their parents these days then than they
09:17were in the you know much much distant
09:20I feel like they're actually less
09:22independent they don't roam around town
09:23on their bikes the way we did when we
09:25were kids they've all got phones we know
09:27where they are all the time well they're
09:30they're more independent in the
09:31following way let me say which is that
09:33there's a lot of interactions that kids
09:35have where the parents aren't present
09:37you know a century or two centuries ago
09:40kids weren't going to school they
09:42weren't leaving the house they weren't
09:44interacting over at friends houses as
09:45much one of the fundamental problems
09:47that modern parents face is the fact
09:49that in some respects kids know more
09:52about what's going on in the kids lives
09:54than the parents do so you know you your
09:56child is doing poorly in school and
09:59comes home and says I'm working as hard
10:02as I can you know but I just can't
10:03manage to do well well here of parents
10:06face a real struggle because on the one
10:08hand if the child is deceiving them is
10:11really not working that hard the parent
10:13would like to do various things to
10:15encourage the child to work harder on
10:17the other hand if the kid really is
10:18working as hard as they can and this is
10:20just the best they can do it's
10:21counterproductive for the parent to
10:23criticize them for getting a C or a B or
10:26whatever well and I'm really glad you
10:28bring this up because I wanted to ask
10:29where does truth and fiction fit into
10:32these models you know are we are we
10:34assuming that we have a basic
10:35understanding of the facts and are we
10:37actually assuming that children are
10:39rational players here in these strategic
10:41interactions I think kids are rational
10:44one of my favorite stories that I've got
10:46it's secondhand but was of an economist
10:49a son who ran into the store and came
10:52out holding two candy bars and said dad
10:55can I have two candy bars and dad says
10:57no no no you can only have one and the
10:59kid gets this giant smile on his face
11:01cuz of course he only wanted one but he
11:04knew it if he asked for two the guys
11:05would be at one right right kids are
11:08strategic reason Earth's in figuring out
11:10how to get what they would like to from
11:13their parents and that truth and and
11:15lies fits into that then because they're
11:18using it ultimately to get what they
11:20want absolutely I mean every parent has
11:22to go through the struggle of teaching
11:25their kid why lying is wrong because
11:27kids will figure out at some point that
11:30they can get what they want by deceiving
11:31their parents that it's useful that lies
11:33are usable kids have access to all sorts
11:36of information that parents can't
11:38observe directly themselves right all
11:41parents here is the fight between the
11:42siblings in the next room they don't
11:44know who started it because they weren't
11:46in situations where the parents are
11:48worried that their children might be
11:50facing and in an incentive to deceive
11:52them how can parents sort of design the
11:55social interaction to minimize the
11:57consequence of that deception or the
11:59incentive to do it if in the end the
12:02parents and children had exactly the
12:04same view of the world there will be no
12:06game so we go to the root of what makes
12:08a parent and children see things
12:11differently the interesting thing is
12:12that love that creates a common interest
12:15so that is really interesting to think
12:17of the emotion of love as actually
12:19serving as a kind of common ground that
12:21aligns these interests and these
12:23different goals education is also a
12:26instrument for cancer in exercising some
12:30control through influence and moral
12:33suasion on children so if parents want
12:35to try to change the payoff in the game
12:38so they try to change the way children
12:41behave by making them think different in
12:44the game well more educated my parents
12:47may have access to a higher
12:49sophistication but that's not to say
12:51that less educated parents are
12:54irrational they may just have more
12:56limited set of instruments of disposal
12:58which comes to the point of why
13:00education is negatively correlated with
13:04punishment with corporal punishment and
13:06one of the answer is that well the set
13:10of strategy that more educated parents
13:13can play is more sophisticated and that
13:17leaves somehow our parents who have less
13:19time and lower the patient with
13:22or a simple way of intervening I thought
13:25it was really interesting that you said
13:27that we know less of what kids are
13:28experiencing than we once did because I
13:30think in a lot of ways it feels like we
13:32actually know far more right with the
13:34with the technological tools and the way
13:37kids use technology the way parents use
13:38technology GPS data and texting and
13:43being always in touch and the way that
13:45schools you know send home information
13:47and there's there's ways in which we
13:48know a lot more so how do you see that
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