00:00hi I'm Hannah and welcome to the a 16z
00:02podcast we talk a lot about how various
00:04industries are adapting to tech but what
00:06about museums whose job to some extent
00:08is to lag behind as part of our recent
00:11DC podcast Roadshow guest Sarah Lombard
00:14digital curator of the United States
00:15Holocaust Memorial Museum whose voice is
00:18the first guest you'll hear adam martin
00:21chief digital officer at the national
00:23museum of african-american culture in
00:25history who is the second voice and
00:27rachel Gosselin's director of the arts
00:29and industries building at the
00:30smithsonian talked with me about all
00:32things tech museums and storytelling I
00:35saw you tweeted a study that museums are
00:37perceived to be more trustworthy than
00:39news at the moment at a time when there
00:42is tremendous schisms and society it is
00:45a place where people expect to be safe
00:49and to have issues topics stories that
00:54they can talk about in a way that is
00:57interesting provocative i opening and
01:01doesn't have the noise from outside one
01:05of the ways where hopefully we are
01:06starting to evolve though is because of
01:10the expectations that our audience has
01:11now just as we've seen in media people
01:15also have an expectation now that their
01:17stories are going to be part of that and
01:19looking for ways to engage with museums
01:22in a way that they haven't in the past
01:23where before was a place where you went
01:26to receive information from from one
01:28source or from one interpretation they
01:30want an opportunity to have their
01:32stories and their perspectives be a part
01:34of their museum experience in general
01:37the expectation has gone from the museum
01:40is a monologue to it's a dialogue at the
01:43end of the day museums and exhibitions
01:44are about telling the story so how is
01:46technology actually changing how we tell
01:48those stories how is it making it better
01:50how is it making it more challenging
01:51how about is just making it more
01:52complicated is it I mean it's become
01:54more complicated and more challenging
01:56because you know so many of those limits
01:59have been pushed out now where there's
02:02we can start to build on top of those
02:04exhibitions in the physical space so
02:06what do you mean by the limits being
02:07pushed out you went to the museum you
02:09had one experience while you were there
02:11and what you want they were able to
02:15present to you to share to you with the
02:18introduction of digital and more
02:19interactive experiences it's created
02:22nearly limitless opportunities for us as
02:26storytellers yeah to expand on those
02:28themes those issues that we raised in
02:30the museum and allow people to continue
02:32to explore them could we have an example
02:34how how those experiences go beyond the
02:38museum we look at our missions as
02:41institutions the Holocaust Museum is
02:44looking for people to think about the
02:46Holocaust and as they walk out their
02:49role in society right because society is
02:53fragile and we all have a role in
02:56upholding the institutions of a
02:59Democratic Society and to keep it strong
03:01so you have a fairly specific message
03:03for what you want people to leave the
03:05museum thinking about but then the
03:06question is well what do they do with
03:07that afterwards it's really successful
03:10if an intergenerational family comes and
03:14they have a conversation in the cafe
03:18right after their visit or if they go
03:21home or if they end up choosing a career
03:25these ways that we as museums have
03:27really lofty goals of inspiring and of
03:31and taking it with you can digital help
03:33or not I tend to think about what
03:34technology can do in museums in three
03:37buckets and at the most basic level it
03:39can give you more sophisticated
03:40information about the museums but the
03:43two areas which I think are both really
03:45rich are they enable people to dig
03:48deeper into a subject or an artifact or
03:51story that interests them and they allow
03:53people to be interactive and the digging
03:55deeper category there's an app in our
03:58Museum of Natural History in our bones
04:00Hall which has all of our skeletons and
04:02it's called the skin and bones and it
04:04uses augmented reality you can see a
04:07skeleton of a prehistoric platypus and
04:10if you hold up your iPhone its skin
04:13animates over swim around and you can
04:18also access videos of you know
04:20biologists talking about this creatures
04:24right in habitat so if you're interested
04:26in that your technology allows you to
04:28dig deep so it's offering you more more
04:31ways in and into richer sort of and it's
04:34self selective right you can choose
04:35which thing is more interesting to you
04:37and then access more information so
04:40that's what I think of as as an example
04:42of digging deeper and then there's
04:43interactivity so at the cooper-hewitt
04:46Design Museum in New York we have the
04:48pen it allows you to go into this
04:49amazing design museum and using a check
04:52out device to capture information in
04:55some instances to drag those objects
04:57onto an interactive table and manipulate
04:59them or to you change the wallpaper in
05:03this kind of installation room this
05:05technology allows you to interact with
05:07personally curate and save things that
05:10are of interest to you in the museum
05:12when I look at the wallpaper solution
05:14the cooper-hewitt found a way to bring
05:17wallpaper to life well this is an
05:20interesting question because I think
05:21that sounds amazing and I actually have
05:23a wallpaper things some of these things
05:27feel kind of like the gamification of
05:29the museum and some of them feel like
05:30they're actually transforming the
05:32relationship between the viewer and the
05:34museum how do you tell the difference
05:35how do you think which of these is a
05:37foundational difference and which isn't
05:38and in our relationship I mean changing
05:40that relationship really I think of an
05:43art museum a lunch counter interactive
05:46artists amazing experience the evocative
05:48of the Woolworth lunch counters and the
05:50sit-ins that took place there the
05:52student sit-ins and so we invite you to
05:54come in and sit in these in these seats
05:57and the experience you have is that sort
05:59of ask the visitor what would you do if
06:01you or some sixty plus years ago in this
06:04scenario here what it does is it gets
06:06people not only engaging with with the
06:08history and learning more from the
06:09contacts but having a social experience
06:12as well turning to the person next to
06:14them and asking them questions about
06:15what choices they made and what
06:17different experiences they were then
06:18presented where they can have a rich
06:20experience with the history that they're
06:22being presented with but then does it
06:24lead them to further conversation so
06:26making it a very long story writing a
06:28deep deep sort of back into deep time
06:31and then bringing it forward into now
06:32and into the future is that what makes
06:34when it does that or I think anytime you
06:36can you know you can use those tools to
06:38make those things relevant for people
06:40right so that it's based on the
06:42framework you evaluate that's the
06:43framework so how do we connect those
06:45generations how do we connect those
06:46different visitor experiences through
06:48the technology and the stories that we
06:49tell sometimes people call Digital new
06:51media and I like it it's been around for
06:55over 20 years so I think we need to stop
06:58using the word new Digital is another
07:00tool in our storytelling toolbox and so
07:04the question becomes we have a story to
07:06tell what can tell it best
07:09sometimes it's digital sometimes it's
07:11film sometimes it's an artifact or if s
07:14simile of an artifact that you can touch
07:15yeah I think that's interesting because
07:17I wanted to talk a little bit about the
07:19virtual museum what the relationship
07:21between the virtual museum and the
07:23physical museum is especially because
07:24one of the biggest the most promising
07:26use cases right for VR is this idea of
07:28making the museum accessible to people
07:31who can't come to the museum to people
07:33in far-flung places do we need the
07:36physical museum look I think what
07:38everybody is trying to create profound
07:41digital experiences in the private
07:44sector and the nonprofit sector and
07:46government in museums so yes there's
07:49obviously a frontier there that is going
07:51to be explored by all of these
07:53industries but you have to look at what
07:55is the distinguishing feature of the
07:59museum what is the thing that museums
08:01that can do that very very few other
08:05places can do and that I think at its
08:07fundamental essence which is not to
08:09devalue the importance of digitizing
08:11collections and having experiences
08:14accessible from all over the world but
08:16the thing that museums do better than
08:18anything else is inspire awe at being in
08:23the presence of something spectacular
08:26and sharing that with the people around
08:31you that's beautiful we need more tools
08:33in our toolkit and it is myopic of us to
08:36not look at those museums have been
08:37using the same two or three tools for
08:39the last hundred years as well as being
08:41artifact panel or board with text on it
08:46and maybe in the last 20 years of video
08:47if we're feeling crazy
08:48what are some of the basic tools that
08:50digital curators have at their
08:52fingertips now how they're changing the
08:53museum experience to help answer this
08:55spectrum of problems they're the touch
08:57screens there are the beacons that will
09:00talk to your phone there are new types
09:02of audio tours there are all sorts of
09:05different types of interactive screens
09:08or projections where you touch a
09:10physical object and then something will
09:12project on top of it I think of you know
09:14augmented mixed and virtual reality in
09:16one kind of bucket although you need
09:19different devices to mediate those and
09:22then there are kind of tracking and
09:24personalization technologies RFID is
09:27radio frequency identification and NFC
09:30is Near Field Communication and both of
09:33those are technologies that allow either
09:36your phone or a chip in your ticket or
09:39something to track you individually and
09:41in some instances allow exhibits to
09:45respond to you or to change their
09:47information as you get close to it
09:50there's a geolocation that allow the
09:52museum to locate you wherever you are
09:54and push content to your phone
09:56both LACMA and SFMOMA are engaged in
10:00very robust experiments on how to use
10:02that and are sort of the beta testing I
10:04think for a lot of us it has issues in
10:07very tall spaces or very crowded spaces
10:09which serve the definition of museums
10:12often but the technology is evolving and
10:14evolving and I have a feeling in a few
10:16years it's going to be to a place where
10:18it'll be a hugely effective tool in
10:20allowing us to both track and impart
10:24information to patrons as they walk
10:26through the space but there is a really
10:28scary underside to all of this so many
10:32of our experience that you should be
10:34shared are now isolated experiences and
10:37the idea of 28 million people walking
10:40through the Smithsonian museums over the
10:43course of a year looking at their phones
10:45in these or in VR goggles even worse but
10:47some some of these tools are fostering
10:50social interactions actually in a new
10:52way and that's something we look at you
10:54use that word accessibility and I think
10:57we feel a responsibility at our museum
10:59to bring that experience to as many
11:02we can who will never have that
11:03opportunity to come to our Museum and so
11:05that's the challenge how do we come up
11:07with these experiences that can bring
11:10that same value that can have that same
11:12measure of impact and some of them will
11:14be better at fostering that social than
11:16others some might be a little more
11:18isolating but I do think that sometimes
11:20you want a sort of inward-looking
11:21insular experience and the ability of
11:24some of these tools to heighten that is
11:26maybe also another tool in the arsenal
11:28absolutely the physical experience I
11:31believe will always be richer than a
11:33digital experience because the physical
11:35experience can hit all of our senses and
11:37digital can be woven into that so if you
11:41can't come to a museum then what is that
11:43digital experience that will tell those
11:47no one's answered the question none of
11:49us have figured out what will your
11:51digital experience of our museum be if
11:54you can't get there the question that we
11:56all need to learn to ask is what's the
11:59problem we're trying to solve what's the
12:01story that we're trying to tell what are
12:02the tools that we have that can answer
12:04that because sometimes people come to at
12:07least to me and they're saying digital
12:08you can do this like well what problem
12:10what we're trying to accomplish here and
12:13sometimes you're not just a jeweler for
12:15every single nail yeah right
12:17and it's almost like how about we do we
12:20did like a chalkboard which because we
12:22were asking people to respond it's
12:24tactile it's in museum everyone can see
12:29the audience is self-regulating if
12:32there's something inappropriate
12:34then people would erase it and people
12:36said you're Digital why are you doing a
12:38chalkboard I think we're doing a
12:40chalkboard because it's the solution for
12:42the problem that we have not the hammer
12:45for everything yeah I do think one of
12:47the opportunities that technology can
12:50help us solve in the museum world is
12:52this desire for personalization right
12:55that is something that technology that
12:58we don't particularly do well one of the
13:01challenges that we have as museums is
13:04that especially for the three of us at
13:05this table people tend to be coming to
13:07our museums once which means that
13:10whatever we build has to be highly
13:15or something that once you figure it out
13:18in a fairly short amount of time and
13:20we're talking in the span of seconds or
13:22minutes and then it can be repeated over
13:24and over it doesn't have the luxury that
13:29you might have a sustained engagement of
13:32sustained engagement or something that
13:34you have to figure out and so what it
13:37has to be direct well it has to be
13:40really easy because you're never ever
13:41gonna do it again and you're not gonna
13:43spend that much time trying to figure it
13:45out because you're in a crowded space
13:47with a lot of people you mentioned
13:49before you know gamification and that's
13:51something we've actually stayed away
13:53from for those reasons right the reason
13:56why we enjoy games is because they are
13:57complicated and they're challenging in
13:59the beginning right and then we do them
14:00over and we get better at them we don't
14:03we don't have that opportunity in the
14:05museum it has to be a don't make me
14:08think but at the same it also make me
14:10think the same time contextually rich it
14:13has to have educational value it can't
14:14just be technology for the sake of
14:16technology taking up space on the floor
14:18and the museum I make it a point to get
14:21out on the floor and just observe how
14:23people are experiencing those
14:25Interactive's so that we can get that
14:26real feedback of you know what seem to
14:29be those those pain points or are people
14:33stopping and engaging this with the way
14:35that we hope so you talk about the pain
14:37points of some of these tools what is it
14:39like to have these in these crowded
14:40spaces when you have 8,000 people coming
14:44through touching these screens one of
14:46the challenges we have when we were
14:48prototyping in exhibit which is a big
14:51thing for a museum to say we're actually
14:53gonna have a slightly different
14:54experience here for the next 16 hours
14:58right so we're pulling things in and out
15:01but if we have 5,000 people touching a
15:05prototype then we actually have to build
15:07a prototype then that can withstand at
15:11least two to three thousand people
15:13touching it and that's not that's not
15:17off-the-shelf stuff and we did use
15:19something that was used for conferences
15:20and it lasted eight hours eight hours
15:22museums on the whole do not have highly
15:29departments the time that it takes to
15:31get something from an idea to the floor
15:33is often so long in the technological
15:37world that by the time it gets to the
15:39floor it's already outdated something
15:41will become obsolete pretty quickly
15:42that's a real challenge for for the
15:46museum world I don't think it's being
15:47overstaffed that's our challenge which
15:49is the digital culture has gone to
15:52things like designing Minimum Viable
15:55Product going for lean design and so
15:59it's looking to fail fast that is not
16:02yet part of the museum culture by the
16:05time you get something on the floor
16:07technology may overtake you was recently
16:10in a museum where they had these
16:12beautiful tables the problem with these
16:15interactive tables is that they were
16:17released like 2007 well in 2007 that's
16:22when the iPhone came out and everyone
16:23moved to swipe when those tables don't
16:26swipe so they are indestructible they're
16:30great they're fantastic they completely
16:33fail to meet the audience expectations
16:35of how I interact with the table and
16:37that's a maintenance man over an
16:39underfunded problem what I've had to
16:42shift for myself and coming into museum
16:45space is you know what we mean when we
16:47say wrap it is what's changed right from
16:50what to one from two and four week you
16:53know cycles to two and four month even
16:56that was you know a huge leap forward so
16:58from a technology standpoint you know
17:01one yeah hoping to make good bets on the
17:04underlying technology and some of the
17:05physical technology that we don't get
17:07stuck with a tabletop that is not going
17:10to meet visitor expectations in six
17:12months or or a year but really looking
17:15at the software that we develop so that
17:18we can make improvements and changes to
17:21the software that they're not so married
17:23together and certainly have the content
17:30we can make changes to those stories we
17:32can change out what we show on those
17:34tables we can make you know start to
17:37make tweaks and hopefully improvements
17:39to the user interface and the user
17:42or software changes that was something
17:44that went into the thinking in the
17:46beginning of the development is make
17:48sure the underlying software is you know
17:53exactly right it is built from the
17:56presentation layer he couples from the
17:58presentation layer is is built on a
18:00suite of API is that there is a content
18:02management system that the curators can
18:04use to update content based on feedback
18:07that we get that's visitors based on the
18:10analytics that we see of where are those
18:12drop-off points in the storytelling
18:14where are people getting stuck in their
18:17digital interactive experience on the
18:19table and then using that that data that
18:20information to hopefully make some
18:22informed choices and informed decisions
18:25about how we improve those experience I
18:26wanted to actually specifically ask
18:28about the role of data and designing
18:31these exhibitions a lot of these tools
18:32are about personalizing the experience I
18:35mean how much how much does data play
18:37into your decision-making and in the in
18:39the personalization of visitors
18:42experiences that is I think especially
18:44for the Smithsonian really powerful
18:46which is the ability to collect non
18:49personal data about where people are
18:51going what they are doing what they're
18:53interested in because we're a free set
18:55of museums you know we don't have a lot
18:58of information on our visitors the
19:00ability to use the the back end of all
19:03these interactive technologies to gather
19:05information to make the museum
19:07experience overall better is a huge
19:09upside of technology that sometimes gets
19:11lost in the focus on on what it can do
19:14for the visitors so what kinds of
19:16decisions do you make that differently
19:17now because of that data it's using the
19:19geolocation technologies that we're
19:22talking about to see where people are or
19:24the interactive ones can change things
19:27midstream you know this area of the
19:30museum isn't getting enough traffic or
19:31getting as much traffic or people aren't
19:33stopping here for very long so how do we
19:35change the exhibit or change the
19:37information here so that it captures
19:39people's attention better or people are
19:42really clustering in this area so maybe
19:44we want to put more things here you know
19:46it's it's really kind of basic tracking
19:48and traffic patterns that are really
19:51helpful to understand this is data that
19:53can completely change how we're shaping
19:55physical space or how we create a
19:58physical experience we've been using
20:00sort of the observing where people going
20:03what are the questions that they're
20:04asking to create a new of orientation
20:07map maps are really hard and people
20:11really want to know where am I and arm
20:14just literally getting around the museum
20:16you mean literally when they first come
20:17in what are the options the US Holocaust
20:20Memorial Museum is built specifically to
20:23show a moment when a society was falling
20:26apart it is supposed to feel slightly
20:31confused oh just a sort of shocking Kay
20:34not necessarily chaotic but more you
20:36think of the 1930s and Germany is
20:38feasting apart destabilizing that's good
20:41and that makes it slightly hard to
20:43navigate on purpose yet we are looking
20:47to create these frictionless experiences
20:50so that people can engage with the
20:52stories and the content that we are
20:54putting in front of them both physically
20:55and digitally but it seems to me that
20:57you know part of what the museum has
20:59always been is a place to encounter the
21:01strange and the surprising and the
21:03unexpected ancient art that you would
21:05never have seen somewhere else data
21:06can't shape your vision what it can do
21:09is once you've implemented your vision
21:11it can show you where places where you
21:14need to iterate and change because there
21:17may be an internal concepts that we all
21:19were completely in love with and then
21:22you put it out on the floor or you put
21:24it on a website to choose your platform
21:27and mmm it just kind of fell flat and
21:31that's another thing that Digital has
21:32certainly brought into the museum world
21:34of doing sort of concept testing
21:37iterative design continually bringing
21:39the audience voice back into the
21:42conversation it goes back to this
21:43fundamental assumption that museums need
21:46to be more of a dialogue and also that
21:48in today's world where we mediate the
21:51world through our own choices and
21:52preferences and new sources and
21:54expression the museum has to meet that
21:58expectation as well there's a bunch of
22:01different ways to personalize experience
22:03you know I think really the Holocaust
22:05Museum the Holocaust museums in general
22:07were trailblazers in
22:0925 however many years ago with this idea
22:12that you pick a story at you when you
22:14come in your assigned by receiving a
22:16profound right I kept the passport for
22:20years and years and year yes so museums
22:22are now using these technologies to kind
22:25of take that to another level and
22:27there's a couple great examples in
22:29Europe there's the whoresons prison
22:31Museum in Denmark in which you come in
22:34and this uses RFID technology and you
22:36can pick a character and it's a prison
22:39guard or it's an inmate or it's a cook
22:41and as you go and you get a card with
22:44that person's identity and as you go
22:46through the museum literally these very
22:48rich exhibits transform to tell you the
22:51story of that person so as you look into
22:53a cell and you scan your card you see a
22:56hologram of the inmate that is your
22:59character sitting in that cell typing on
23:02a typewriter and you can see the words
23:03from his actual journal typing out
23:06across the walls all sorts of different
23:08experiences to to take what this basic
23:11you know following a story idea and make
23:13it richer and bring it to life and
23:15animate it and then there's another kind
23:17of option the National Museum system of
23:21Wales where across all of their museums
23:24before you go you download an app you
23:27put in all your preferences how old are
23:29you what are you interested in you know
23:31what level of information is interesting
23:33to you and then as you walk through the
23:35museum you have this card with you and
23:38these beacons pick up where you are and
23:41can adjust the information you're
23:43getting to if you're 10 years old or if
23:45you're 80 year olds if you're a
23:46mechanical engineer or if you're an
23:48I'm you've kind of created your own
23:50profile and so the information that you
23:52see at different spots adjusts to your
23:55preferences so so those are two examples
23:58of ways that you're still in the present
24:00in the actual prison or seeing the you
24:04know you're still in that commercial
24:05space you're still in a social space but
24:07you're getting information that is more
24:09tailored to your age your interest level
24:12your professional experience now the
24:14question is as we're going forward how
24:17do we create that personalized solution
24:19that allows us to see ourselves in the
24:23but also creates and enables that shared
24:27experience and then complicates your
24:29thinking about what society is and what
24:32our roles are one of the ways that we
24:33approach personalization and our Museum
24:35is is really all about that is about
24:38accessibility is about inclusion is
24:40about seeing yourself in the museum and
24:42representation and so I think it's funny
24:45a lot of this feels to me to be about
24:46empathy really that's an interesting
24:49insight traditionally museums have been
24:51you know cabinets of curiosities places
24:54you go kind of like I think you said to
24:56see the unseen yeah but this idea that
24:59they're well to create a sense of
25:02empathy yeah yeah I mean looking at the
25:04Holocaust Museum and memorial and then
25:06you're looking at the african-american
25:08Museum of History and culture we're
25:10asking people to engage with really
25:12difficult topics and to think about them
25:15in new ways that they haven't before in
25:17our museum there are these reflections
25:18booths where individuals can go in and
25:21and we we provide with them questions to
25:24sort of get them thinking about the
25:26experience they just came through and
25:27they can record it's a two minute video
25:29that they can recorder themselves sort
25:31of responding to these questions they're
25:33sharing their experience in the museum
25:35and what it's meant to them in an in a
25:37deeply personal way and then those
25:40stories they get shared back with the
25:42individual and they share them with
25:43their networks with their family and
25:44friends on they upload them to Facebook
25:46and they share them out on Twitter or
25:48YouTube we're in the process now where
25:50those stories are also getting you know
25:52sort of reincorporated back into the
25:54museum experience so outside of each of
25:56those booths there are videos on
25:58displays where you know different
26:00individuals are sharing their stories
26:02sharing there are collections on a
26:03moment in history or something that they
26:05experienced there and it's incredibly
26:07powerful and so you talk about
26:08personalization and I think of it as now
26:10these people are forming a personal
26:12connection with the museum their story
26:14is now a part of the museum story and
26:17and that's a connection that is very
26:20very powerful yeah I think when you see
26:22whether it's individuals or you see you
26:25know parents and kids or older
26:27generation a lot of these experiments
26:29are about a desired emotional affect and
26:31intellectual take away but this is a
26:33weird thought but weird baby
26:34my favorite I feel like you can't
26:36anticipate necessarily right the
26:38reactions that people will actually have
26:39and sometimes it doesn't quite work out
26:41like I remember the World Trade than the
26:449/11 exhibit the temporary one that
26:47happened that right after September 11th
26:49at the end you could go into a booth and
26:51pick up a phone and listen to the
26:54voicemails for that people had left from
26:56the plane and I found that to be
26:58horrific and I'm sort of a violation and
27:01I remember comparing it to the Holocaust
27:03Museum at the time and thinking what's
27:05the difference here where it one feels
27:08gratuitous and McCobb like you were
27:11getting some like horror movie free song
27:13out of this how do you think about
27:15gauging those emotional reactions when
27:17you but when you're starting an
27:19experiment like that and you don't
27:20really know where it will go there are a
27:23few things going on one that you've
27:25touched on which is 9/11 isn't really
27:30history yet was so raw it was it's it is
27:35many ways still part of the present
27:36there is an idea out there that history
27:38really you can't talk about his history
27:39for about 25 years that there needs to
27:41be some distance and then there's also a
27:45question that aside the question of what
27:48is is there something that's too
27:51personal to share too much a part of the
27:56victims right the Holocaust Museum had a
27:58huge discussion about whether or not
28:01hair should be on yes play I remember
28:05that actually yeah and it is not on
28:07display it is but the shoes are yes but
28:11it's a news but you can take your shoes
28:13on and off oh that's is that how the
28:16desert hair the hair is part of your
28:19both of you just part of your body
28:21I just got ya chills that's a really
28:25interesting distinction and so in that
28:28the last call you make to a loved one
28:31yeah you know that this is the last call
28:34that was not kind of like you're here
28:37yeah I think it is and I think that's
28:40why it felt wrong kind of to me anyways
28:43I think when you're thinking about you
28:45know creating those experiences though
28:47and you you know in bringing it back to
28:49the reflections boobies well that's an
28:51arm again you know and giving that over
28:55to the the visitor right so so you have
28:57that option as the visitor of whether
28:59you want to share your story with us at
29:03the Museum you opted in with others
29:05versus I just wanted as a keepsake for
29:08myself as a remembrance of my visit to
29:11the museum and what I experienced here
29:12they don't have to share it right with
29:14us it can be like a diary yeah exactly
29:16right and sometimes we never see them we
29:18we certainly have ones that people have
29:21chosen to share with us where they're
29:22coming from the slavery and freedom
29:25exhibition where it's a it's a very
29:27emotionally raw journey through that or
29:30they're come they've come from the
29:32Emmett Till memorial and they're sharing
29:35the emotions that that you know caused
29:38in them coming from that and reflecting
29:40on things that are happening still today
29:42in our society and so you get these
29:44incredibly charged emotional stories
29:47very personal stories but always
29:50remembering it's you know it's something
29:52that that if they choose to share it
29:54with us so that's part of I think you
29:56know challenging some some held beliefs
29:59of increasing the dialogue and and
30:02fostering often times very difficult
30:03challenging conversations they're done
30:06right I think this also asks another
30:08question which is is it necessary are
30:10you doing something because it's going
30:13to be a shock or be you know grab your
30:17attention are you doing it because it's
30:18integral to the story and there's
30:21different answers right I mean I think
30:22hair arguably might be integral to the
30:24story but be on the wrong side of the
30:26line in terms of too personal but
30:28there's also the temptation with
30:31technology to do it because we can well
30:33we should have a virtual reality
30:34experience in this exhibit or well we
30:37should have a augmented reality app here
30:39and just because you can do something
30:42and because it's gonna get a rise
30:43temporarily gamification is the same
30:46thing you know there's some things that
30:48it's actually just not helpful to make a
30:50game out although I would say that you
30:51know if we are experimenting we don't
30:53actually know you know it to some degree
30:55we have to push these limits and figure
30:57out how they're gonna feel
30:59we'll only know yeah we do need to have
31:03that conversation of what problem are we
31:06trying to solve what story are we trying
31:07to tell and to stay the ANA narrative
31:10yeah last question just to look forward
31:12a little bit what do you think twenty
31:14years from now will be the biggest
31:16difference in the way we interact with
31:18museums I think it'll be integrated at
31:21that point we won't be you won't ask us
31:24to have a conversation about museums and
31:26digital you'll just ask us to have a
31:28conversation about museum experiences
31:31it'll just be completely it'll be
31:33completely integrated baked-in yeah I
31:36think twenty years from now we'll be
31:38having the same conversation with some
31:40technologies I do you know museums for
31:43many reasons they're not leaders they're
31:44laggers and in some ways that's good
31:46because we really are so protective of
31:48our core it is a protective institution
31:50where our job is to protect at the core
31:54these amazing artifacts and stories that
31:56we've been entrusted with but I think
31:58this sort of double bottom line for
31:59museums is how to accommodate the
32:01changing expectations and habits of our
32:03visitors without losing our North Star
32:06digital is a tactic to to engage with
32:09audiences right it's not a separate
32:11strategy that museums and cultural
32:13institutions should be pursuing at the
32:16same time there's gonna be new
32:16challenges are going to arise we haven't
32:18imagined yet because all those other
32:20ways that people receive information the
32:23way that they communicate with one
32:24another are going to continue to evolve
32:26by leaps and bounds over the coming
32:30years and decades and I think for us
32:32that's where we look to going forward is
32:35that you know one of the way that people
32:37engage with us and how they're sharing
32:39with the people who who mean the most to
32:41them is is really where we should be
32:43looking to in terms of what we want to
32:44do next that's beautiful
32:47thank you all so much
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