00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael
00:02Copeland how do you face down cancer get
00:06told you can't get life-saving organ
00:07transplants and go about getting them
00:10anyway and in the middle of that mental
00:12and physical storm how do you find the
00:14thing that you and only you were meant
00:16to do and start building it one person
00:19who has the answers is Jim Gilliam the
00:22founder of nation builder and he's got
00:25the answers because that is exactly what
00:27he had to do all of it it's given
00:29Gilliam a clear philosophy on life and
00:31on being a leader and what he's learned
00:34along the way he says is something
00:36everyone can tap into it's that if
00:39that's multiple steps there's one
00:40believing that there is something that
00:42you're eating commit to contribute
00:43finding what that thing is and then
00:46having the audacity to say I'm gonna do
00:48it and the humility to know that you
00:50can't do it by yourself
00:52that's we've all got that everybody does
00:56Gilliam first told his story and a break
00:59the internet video the internet is my
01:01religion he's gone deeper with his
01:03recently published book of the same
01:04title ben horowitz sat down with Gilliam
01:07on the occasion of his book launch to
01:09hear more about his philosophy on life
01:11religion leadership and what we all can
01:14do to move this world forward so welcome
01:18and I'm Ben Horowitz from andreessen
01:22horowitz this is Jim Gilliam
01:24he is the author who has come to tell us
01:27about his book and we're very excited
01:28about that Jim's also the founder CEO of
01:31nation builder so I'm gonna ask him a
01:34few questions we're gonna talk a little
01:37about the book and then we'll open it up
01:39for questions from everyone so to get
01:42started Jim you were raised a
01:45fundamentalist Christian you went to
01:47Liberty University but your family
01:51didn't start out as fundamentalist tell
01:55us the story of you know how you got to
01:59that point how your father kind of made
02:01that transition what it was the thing
02:03that triggered it um so we lived in when
02:06I was little 3 or 4 and we lived in
02:09upstate New York and Woodstock and
02:11my dad worked at IBM they had a big
02:14facility there in Kingston and they
02:16launched this IBM the IBM PC the big
02:20answer to the Apple 2 computer and but
02:23he didn't have any software for it so
02:26they had this big employee software
02:28program it's kind of like crowdsourcing
02:30would be today so it was all within like
02:32the actual company where they let any
02:35employee make software for the new PC
02:37and then it was good they would
02:39distribute it and give royalties to the
02:41folks who are making it and so my dad
02:44and his buddy they were they weren't
02:47gonna do like they were gonna make
02:48solitaire they decided to make an
02:51operating system and this is like in
02:551980-81 yeah 82 yeah it started 82 and
03:01like this was crazy like the idea that
03:03you could yeah writing a PC operating
03:05system just like writing a PC operating
03:07system in 1982 yeah yeah and one that
03:13like did more than one thing at a time
03:14on this like silly little like stupid
03:16could deal with multitasking which
03:18didn't come out in PC operating systems
03:20for another at 6 or 8 years after that
03:26it blew everybody away and all of IBM
03:29and they like had a deal to distribute
03:32it it was amazing like IBM was gonna
03:33have like their own operating system and
03:37it was far superior to anything else on
03:39the market they signed a deal to
03:40distribute it and part of the deal was
03:44that my dad got this like sweet gig out
03:47at Almaden Research Center which was the
03:49new big research center down near San
03:52Jose and the day that he was packing up
03:55to move all of us out there we were me
03:58and my mom and my two sisters were
04:00already actually in San Jose he was
04:02packing up and gets a call from his
04:04I'm finding out that IBM is like just
04:06killed a deal like it was off it was
04:08over but not gonna happen why did they
04:12kill the deal so they killed the deal
04:18IBM didn't want to mess up the
04:20relationship with this new guy Bill
04:23Gates or his company Microsoft and so
04:31they gave them just like you know they
04:33gave him 40 grand to shut him up and
04:34they gave him like you know three years
04:35in golden handcuffs and they sent him
04:37off to San Jose to sweet new job and my
04:40dad was like totally devastated this is
04:41like everything like he was he's a
04:43crater he built up he just loved that so
04:45I'm probably even more devastated when
04:47he saw das I spent a lot of time sitting
04:54next to him watching the typing dir
04:56remember and so we moved to San Jose and
05:02our house happened to be right across
05:05the street from this giant mega church
05:07so this is the early 80s is the first of
05:09this gonna new form of Church there were
05:12like thousands and thousands of members
05:14and we've been Christians like
05:16technically but not really like into it
05:20into it like we didn't even go to church
05:21necessarily every Sunday up to that
05:23point but when we came to San Jose we've
05:25I started going to this church and it
05:28just sucked us in it was incredible I
05:30mean it was this whole community there
05:32was a like sports leagues for all the
05:35kids like my dad coached soccer and
05:37baseball and it's a whole thing and but
05:43they had all these small groups and
05:44Bible studies and heavy thing called
05:46shepherding groups my dad got involved
05:49in that but he he became really
05:51radicalized by some of the pastors there
05:54and some of the books that they read he
05:56thought about becoming a missionary and
05:59I believe that he was trying to fill
06:04that hole that had left him sort of
06:07wanting to believe in something so much
06:09and he believed in IBM it's only company
06:11he ever wanted to work for he like
06:13stopped going to school because like
06:15they were like hey come on please work
06:16for us right now because he was gonna
06:17use you know brilliant and they ripped
06:22he lost total faith in that and he threw
06:24it and so Jesus and that's how we became
06:28Christian fundamentalist
06:31pretty good story this is why you need
06:35to read the book like it's just a story
06:37after story that good so then so so you
06:42were raised fundamentalist Christian but
06:43then at some point you lost your faith
06:46tell us about that yeah so growing up
06:49obviously there was all this about a lot
06:52of Jesus and we were bros but the
06:58internet like the online and all of that
06:59stuff was happening as well this is sort
07:01of before the internet was really a
07:03thing they said BBS's and all the
07:05old-school people here will have no one
07:06talking about trade wars that was my
07:07thing and so the receipts are to kind of
07:12like almost opposing forces going on for
07:15my for my attention and my passions and
07:20whatnot um but as I grew up I've
07:26certainly to college went to Liberty
07:27University and then I got cancer
07:30Liberty is Jerry Falwell University it's
07:34it's the opposite of Liberty there are
07:37an immense number of rules it's like
07:43like literally Google the Liberty Way
07:44and you will feel see all the different
07:47rules like there's about like the length
07:48of skirts and like the whole thing and I
07:53got cancer and that just really jolted
07:55me as you can imagine
07:58but but even more so my mom got cancer
08:01too at the same time two weeks after I
08:04was diagnosed we're actually in the same
08:05hospital I was like mom the clinic
08:07downstairs go and check it out get
08:10checked out and she died five months
08:14later and I survived and you know as you
08:19can imagine that's that's a big thing
08:24had a lot of survivor's guilt trying to
08:28understand why why did God save me and
08:30not her she's such an amazing person and
08:35so that was like the first shot I
08:39stopped going to church I was really
08:42disillusioned with all of it but if
08:45you'd asked me you know in fact a few
08:47people who did ask me at a time like sri
08:49jiva even stood believing God maybe
08:51absolutely he's just an and and
09:00so but the day and ultimately after 9/11
09:03fundamentalism really came to the floor
09:05again it was a big deal I'm like am I
09:08really a fundamentalist it really didn't
09:10seem that far away what was going on
09:13what like you know brought me to trade
09:14it was Saturday I quit was crossing all
09:16this struggle in the world if I had been
09:18born in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia with
09:21like that have been me like that was I
09:23was like whoa and so I started to Google
09:29search engines now I'd even worked at a
09:32search engine I still hadn't figured out
09:33I wanna really use one apparently by
09:35sort of googling it's like Oh what is
09:37this Bible about like who wrote it like
09:40is this true because the thing about
09:42fundamentalism and how I was raised is
09:44that you know our big belief is that the
09:49Bible is the inerrant Word of God that's
09:51actually the phrase inerrant Word of God
09:52meaning everything in it was
09:54word-for-word correct that comes from
09:56the Talmud actually and and so it wasn't
10:03like word-for-word accurate then that
10:07was completely devastating sort of the
10:10of my belief system and you can figure
10:13out that it's not word-for-word correct
10:15about 45 seconds on the internet these
10:18days now when I was a kid you couldn't
10:19write but you can't now in and and this
10:23is fundamentalism right there's plenty
10:25of persons infected my vast majority of
10:27Christians who would not at all argued
10:29that the Bible is the inerrant Word of
10:30God and it's much more rational
10:33understandable outside of that but for
10:35me that's what it was and so I just lost
10:37my faith I was like this isn't true like
10:38today truth matter it allows me is this
10:42sort of factually true and it wasn't I'm
10:44like this is crazy I can't believe this
10:45and I became anything if this was a know
10:49shortly after 9/11 see it's amazing
10:53because you're running an almost
10:55parallel inverse life to your father
10:58where you know he put everything he had
11:00into his work and then lost his faith in
11:03that and gained faith through religion
11:06and you had all your faith and religion
11:08and lost that so how did you get your
11:10faith back so similar like that
11:18experience in 9/11 turned me into an
11:20activist and I being activist wasn't it
11:27wasn't obvious how to do that back in
11:292001 2002 and I was gonna figure it out
11:33I read a book by Michael Moore it was
11:38called stupid white men I was like this
11:40must be answer must be in here and there
11:45is this like you know inset you know
11:47thing in one of the pages and there was
11:51like 10 steps to like take back the
11:53country or lower and one of the things
11:55said take over your local Democratic
11:57Party like his thesis who is that it's
12:00like all run by a bunch of old people so
12:01it's like bringing in sort of new people
12:03then you can like take over the whole
12:04thing and like actually do some good
12:05with it cuz it's it wasn't very party to
12:07do something with it right so I tried to
12:10do that and it was just completely
12:12pointless but at the same time there was
12:16this new guy that was like you know
12:18lighting up the Internet's I was name
12:21this was 2003 and it's like okay I got
12:25this meetup has sort of burst onto the
12:28scene it was like people coming together
12:30like in real life organized around
12:31political candidate it just intuitively
12:34made sense to me move on really came on
12:36to the scene again similar ideas like
12:38bringing people together over the
12:40internet to sort of make something
12:41happen again intuitively I got it so I
12:43got really involved in this stuff and
12:46eventually I connected with a filmmaker
12:48we started making movies and
12:50documentaries and we used the power of
12:51organizing people and bringing people
12:53together through the internet to change
12:54the stories about what was going on in
12:57Arad what was going on with Fox News and
12:59all of these things that we felt were
13:01really taking the country this wrong
13:03direction we were able to use people can
13:06I just use the internet to have an
13:07impact there and not really realizing it
13:11I developed an immense faith in that
13:15power but it didn't really come to I
13:17didn't really get it until I needed a
13:21double lung transplant so why do you
13:23need a double lung transplant so the
13:27cancer treatments I've had I had
13:29actually cancer twice around the same
13:31time and I might had a bone marrow
13:34transplant and bunch of chemo and a
13:37bunch of radiation and it was 810 years
13:41later that all of those treatments had
13:44scarred my lungs to the point where I
13:46that's pretty unusual usually that's
13:49gonna happen it happens within a year or
13:50two but for me it took a really long
13:52time it's a really long time to figure
13:53out what was going on and so that my
13:58lungs had to get replaced and but
14:00because I had cancer it was very
14:01difficult for the transplant programs to
14:05justify giving me the lungs because the
14:07likelihood that I would reject them and
14:09that they would waste a very precious
14:11resource on someone like me who couldn't
14:14really take advantage of it was too much
14:18so they rejected me outright said nope
14:20you're not a good candidate at all and
14:25so I went on the internet and I blogged
14:27about it I vented a lot
14:33I threatened to register UCLA surgeons
14:36are and some of the folks who
14:45were like reading my blog guns or
14:47following what was going on one of them
14:50sent an email to UCLA and was like
14:52what's going this is crazy like you're
14:53only doing easy surgeries the wonder
14:56your statistics are so great it's not
14:57okay and a whole bunch more people did
15:01that and eventually they like came they
15:04let me come in they brought me in for an
15:06we had a best through so many different
15:08things to make it happen but it was to
15:11again the same story people connected
15:13through the internet people I didn't
15:15even know people I would never even know
15:16made it possible for me to live and you
15:21know it was the realization that I
15:28physically could not live without to
15:32other people like in my body you can be
15:39pretty dense about things but even I
15:42like got that you know I breathes
15:46through someone else as long as while
15:47someone else's blood flows through my
15:49veins so yeah I mean I I have a new
15:55faith in the power of people connected
15:57people I don't even know I literally
16:01bleed and breathe that every day
16:16and kind of out of your faith has come a
16:21life philosophy if you will you know
16:26about human potential and leadership and
16:29so forth and can you kind of tell us a
16:31bit about that and how you think about
16:33the world these days and not only your
16:35own life and and and how others might
16:38think about theirs I am because of this
16:43great gift I felt this immense
16:46responsibility to give back to it was
16:51like this debt that I had to repay and
16:53it's crazy there's a way you can repay
16:55it that like that I knew it but it was
16:57still gonna try and so it's like okay
17:03well what is the same that I can
17:06uniquely contribute like what is it
17:08that's like that no one else can do that
17:09I can do that can make it like maybe a
17:13little bit worthwhile like all this
17:16immense grace that I have experienced
17:19and so I like to build things ultimately
17:22this is you know what became tenacious
17:24older but I believe it similarly
17:28everybody has something that they are
17:31uniquely meant to contribute it is very
17:36difficult to figure out what that thing
17:38is and in fact it frequently changes
17:40over time you know for me we came from
17:45it very clear that what I was meant to
17:46create is like infrastructure for people
17:49to bring folks together on the
17:50Internet's to sort of make whatever is
17:53that they want to make happen but that
17:55that thing that if once you figure out
17:57what that thing is that you actually
17:58want to do that not even that not even
18:01want to do that that you have to do
18:03because no one else could almost all the
18:08time you cannot do that by yourself um
18:10you need other people and that can
18:14really suck that realization and it's
18:19only when you care about that thing so
18:23much that you have to make it happen
18:25that you're willing to
18:26with like all of the hardship that's
18:28involved and bringing other people to
18:30make it happen that you're really to do
18:32what it takes to be a leader and that's
18:35the whole thing if that if that's
18:39multiple steps there's one believing
18:40that there is something that you're
18:42uniquely meant to contribute finding
18:43what that thing is which for me is a lot
18:46about understanding your story and stuff
18:48like that except there's a whole set of
18:49stuff that we've tried to start to
18:50figure out their understanding what that
18:52thing is and then having the audacity to
18:55say I'm gonna do it and the humility to
18:57know that you can't do it by yourself
18:59that's we've all got that everybody does
19:02gotta find it I'm fine I gotta go I
19:06gotta go start something so kind of one
19:13last question so then when you take that
19:17mission how did how did that translate
19:20into three DNA Corp or nation builder
19:24and why nation builder and what's the
19:28mission of the company and and what are
19:30you trying to do there so three DNA Corp
19:33as you can imagine when I was waiting
19:35for the transplant I didn't I had this
19:38realization that was there's gonna be
19:39three different DNA's and my body I was
19:42like if I live I'm gonna start a company
19:44called three D&M no idea was gonna do
19:46and that was the thing that kept me
19:48going was that like you know I'm gonna
19:50get better so I can build something done
19:52and that process started with like okay
19:56this idea of bringing democracy to
19:58democracy that was like the idea after I
20:01got the transplant Obama had gotten
20:03elected and stuff like that and I didn't
20:05really know what that looked like but I
20:06thought that there had to be something
20:07there that no one was really looking at
20:08and I started working with a
20:11congressional candidate in New York and
20:13what I thought was like a campaign
20:14platform you know would be like social
20:17media volunteers and things like that
20:19and as I was working with her I realized
20:22that the problems that I was solving
20:24here were just like the problems that
20:27I've had it being an activist and
20:28organizing people around the movies just
20:30like the problems that we'd had in like
20:32organizing people to help me get the
20:33lungs its leaders bringing together this
20:36loosely knit group of people to just
20:39and that's called leadership it's
20:42existed for a really long time and there
20:45is just this immense opportunity for
20:47people to do that there's a there's a
20:49study done a few years ago by Pew and
20:53they went and then identified 27
20:56different types of groups everything
20:57from like political parties and unions
21:00to like fantasy sports leagues and they
21:03when they asked them a bunch of
21:04different questions like one of the
21:05questions was why do you leave a group
21:08and the number one reason by far 54% of
21:13people said the reason they leave a
21:14group is because of the lack of
21:16leadership so what I believe is
21:19happening is that the internet is
21:20connecting everybody the scale is under
21:22magical we all know that right
21:23and if you think about it right every
21:25highly successful technology has
21:28fundamentally been about connecting
21:30people cars planes television the
21:34telephone with the wheel internets to
21:38submit crazy great crazy version of this
21:40so all these people are coming they're
21:41connected together but then because of
21:43the lack of leadership all of that
21:45potential is just getting squandered so
21:48if we can connect that thing that each
21:51of us is uniquely meant to contribute in
21:53the world that thing that is in it that
21:54we can find that and we can connect it
21:56with all the people that genuinely want
21:59to come together to build communities
22:01and sort of be connected with each other
22:02so like tap into that and become leaders
22:05of that sort actually then make that
22:07happen I mean talk about a wealth
22:12explosion I mean it's like even just 1%
22:18more of that 2% more of that would just
22:20be like world-changing and so that's the
22:23vision behind nations but we're in the
22:25trenches like building that
22:26infrastructure for when there's
22:28something you care about so much that
22:29you're willing to like become a leader
22:31you're willing to sort of do what all of
22:32that takes like it's not easy but the
22:36technology is possible now we've got it
22:39all in one system we can might do all
22:40the different things that kind of help
22:41you keep track of all of it and helpful
22:44be people to making things happen all
22:46those things but it still requires you
22:49to really want it and be willing to make
22:52all those sacrifices
22:53something that Ben talks about all the
22:55time quickly with me you have to make
23:01yourself uncomfortable all the time okay
23:04well thank you Jim that was pretty
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