00:00hi everyone welcome to the a six in Z
00:02podcast I am sonal and today we're
00:04talking about telepresence which is a
00:06really ugly word and really
00:09old-fashioned word for something that's
00:11actually very relevant and interesting
00:13and it has to do with the technologies
00:15for how remote and distributed workers
00:17and even people in the same office talk
00:19to each other using conferencing and
00:20other tools and today we have three
00:22guests joining us to talk about this
00:23trend first we have Scott Hasson who was
00:26the key software architect of Google
00:28back in the early days and also Alexa on
00:30the Stanford digital library he was also
00:32the co-founder of a groups which is now
00:34yahoo groups and later was the founder
00:36of Willow Garage now he's the founder
00:38and CEO of suitable technologies which
00:41makes the beam robots which are
00:42basically these really cool you probably
00:43seen them on TV robots for conferencing
00:46they're like people's heads that roll on
00:47wheels but they're basically robots I
00:48personally don't like my dices call me
00:52called robots we should actually talk
00:53about it because they are not robots
00:55because robots if you ever watched any
00:57of the documentaries coming out of
00:59Hollywood robots usually walk around and
01:01they usually kill off the human race and
01:03these are these are nothing to do with
01:05these are just remote-controlled little
01:06devices no killing of the human race yep
01:08no killing you know and just friendly
01:11people okay so speaking of walkers
01:28although not the game of thrones kind we
01:30also have Craig Walker who is the
01:32co-founder and CEO of switch
01:33Communications which is a communication
01:35service that's integrated with all of
01:37the cloud-based productivity apps that
01:39people already use at work so things
01:41like Google Apps and office 365 and one
01:43of their other products is the voice
01:45conferencing system uber conference and
01:47finally we have Shawn Sinha who's the
01:49co-founder and CEO of hi-5 which
01:51provides an all-in-one hardware and
01:53software system so it's both in-room and
01:55web-based to help bring big company
01:57video conferencing quality to companies
01:59of all size so that's all the
02:01introductions and what you guys do okay
02:03you guys welcome thanks for having us we
02:05wanted to have a podcast on telepresence
02:07trends and I got some pushback on the
02:09word telepresence like what does they
02:10even mean why does it even matter
02:12and I think the broader question here is
02:13like why like why the hell do we care
02:17about telepresence at all like what's
02:19what's a point like why have a podcast
02:20on this topic yeah great question
02:25so as the only non telepresence I think
02:30it's more the broader trend people being
02:32able to work and collaborate from
02:33anywhere at anytime on any device right
02:35and if you're gonna do video there's op
02:37options to do video if you're gonna do
02:39audio if you can have a next-gen phone
02:41system there's ways to do that but the
02:43reality like what we see is businesses
02:46are moving their productivity Suites to
02:47the clown their email their Gmail their
02:49office 365 and their workers are now
02:53able to work and be productive from
02:54anywhere and it's kind of our job to
02:56give them tools to make them even more
02:58productive from any time any place any
03:01device yeah I think so no I think the
03:03the reason why you might get pushed back
03:05around the telepresence term is because
03:08it's kind of like asking the question of
03:10what's going on with the mainframe
03:11market telepresence is sort of dead
03:14these days but the thing that is unique
03:16about today's world is that people are
03:18actually working in fundamentally
03:19different ways people are more
03:21distributed they can do their work from
03:23wherever they are because we've got
03:24bandwidth we've got connectivity we've
03:26got devices we've got mobile phones
03:28everywhere we are and we have access to
03:31all our information and so you know you
03:33can just look at all the statistics you
03:35know companies are increasingly more
03:37distributed two-thirds of workers are
03:39now working from remote locations not
03:42going into the office and I think this
03:44is the trend that you might be really
03:45interested in there's a whole need for a
03:48new set of tools to help connect people
03:49in the ways that they want to work using
03:52the technologies that they're using
03:53today and and and that's the thing
03:56that's making this particular set of
03:58technologies and and trends really
03:59really exciting well that's exactly what
04:01I'm interested in but I think the
04:03question I have is that this problem has
04:05been around for ages I mean granted the
04:07workforce is more distributed and more
04:08remote than ever and I think the need
04:11for communication and connection is
04:12tighter than ever but why is it a
04:14problem like I mean - it's may seem
04:16obvious to you guys I'm the way we the
04:20way I see it is that starting a company
04:24lots of companies being started everyday
04:26right um actually coming up with an idea
04:29for a company is not that hard it turns
04:31out what I found is that the hardest
04:33thing about creating a successful
04:34company it's actually hiring the right
04:36people all right it's this so utterly
04:38hard especially in the Bay Area the
04:39berry is so hard to get a good engineer
04:42who actually knows what they're doing
04:44and things like that and so I mean
04:46basically Michael me we're usually
04:47fighting over that engineer with Google
04:50Apple and Facebook and all how much
04:52different people and so so if you think
04:56about it using technologies like I guess
04:59telepresence technologies allows you to
05:02source staff people to work your company
05:06from anywhere in the world you think
05:08about it right a person you you need to
05:10find her the right person or the right
05:12talent at the in the right location all
05:17for the right price so if you can relax
05:19one of those constraints well that's
05:22great because having three constraints
05:24solve three constraints is really hard
05:27problem and location is actually
05:28probably the most liberating of all the
05:30constraints to relax that's true yeah
05:31you can try relaxing the salary but
05:33people don't like them I like spent I'll
05:35expand on the way we think about the
05:36world is is is very similar but it's not
05:39even just the people you're trying to
05:40hire companies are able to get an
05:43amazing amount of leverage by working
05:46with other partners so I don't have to
05:49have everything in my company anymore I
05:50can work with the best hardware design
05:53firm to go build our device I can work
05:55with the best manufacturer in Asia to go
05:58pull together our entire service I can
06:00work with people up in different
06:02geographies building you know the best
06:04cloud service infrastructure like Amazon
06:07to deliver a an important part of our
06:10service and so you'd look for the best
06:14way to deliver your product or service
06:16in your company and that doesn't
06:18necessarily mean having to just hire
06:19people but it's also the way we work
06:21with partners companies are able to get
06:23more leverage out of that and the thing
06:25that binds all of those things together
06:26is how we communicate with each other
06:28and the way we think about the world at
06:30hi-5 is how do you help people
06:31communicate better and more effectively
06:33in today's world where things are are
06:36increasingly distributed
06:37not even just from a location
06:38perspective but from a company boundary
06:41perspective so both the remote workforce
06:43more distributed sense of partnerships
06:45and collaborators more permeable
06:46boundaries but why can't I just pick up
06:49the phone and get on a speaker call and
06:52talk to people and collaborate that way
06:54so it's it's interesting so when we were
06:56starting a rubric conference what we
06:58wanted to do coming from like the Google
06:59Voice background is hey for those 80% of
07:02minutes that are being consumed by
07:04people just on the phone the guy who's
07:06in the car the guys in the taxi you're
07:07traveling you're not in front of an
07:09ability to get on video you don't want
07:12to still be stuck in that like 1970s
07:15dial a number a 10 or a 10 digit pin
07:17let's focus on a place that everyone's
07:19ignored and I think there's there's
07:21awesome partnership opportunities
07:23there's awesome ways to make voice and
07:25video work really well together you're
07:26seeing probably more diverse businesses
07:28getting together over video but still
07:30the most like the the most intense use
07:33case of just audio conferencing is one
07:36business getting on a conference call
07:38with another or a law firm like those
07:40guys don't talk to their clients on
07:41video they're on the phone all the time
07:42and so how do you do it you know how do
07:44you make it better without you know
07:46without having to go compete with all
07:48these great guys in the video space and
07:50I think I think there's two ways that I
07:51think about that problem I think if you
07:53think about the things that are coming
07:55to market today you've got cars that are
07:57driving themselves you have rockets
07:59being shot into the you know shot into
08:01space for you know 10x less the cost
08:04that they we have people inventing new
08:06types of food all of these are brand new
08:09innovations but the way that people are
08:10still talking to each other is still
08:12over the phone and I think one of the
08:15one of the truisms of history has been
08:16people are always looking for better
08:19ways to communicate sometimes that means
08:21just getting in a room together and
08:22talking sometimes that means jumping on
08:24the phone sometimes that means jumping
08:27on an airplane and having to go and
08:28connect with people sometimes it means
08:30just sending an email and so the I think
08:33in today's world we need more options to
08:37communicate the way that makes sense in
08:39a particular circumstance so at Google
08:41it was really interesting so it's 40,000
08:43person company the normal way that
08:45people talked at Google was using video
08:47we had gotten rid of conference calls
08:50and it ultimately led to a
08:51better company because a company that
08:54made better decisions because we were
08:56able to see each other we didn't have to
08:58wait for everybody to jump into the room
09:00together to make important decisions and
09:02just to give a couple of interesting
09:03statistics for teeth out when we were 40
09:05when I when we were at Google I think we
09:07left right around the same time but when
09:09we were at Google we were around 40,000
09:12people every single day they would do
09:1420,000 video calls oh my god that's
09:16insane the average person used video one
09:19to two times a day and so it became a
09:21part of everyone's everyday workflow and
09:24I know the Craig had the same exact
09:25experience as I did what we said was
09:28every company in the world should have
09:30the option to use video the way we did
09:32at Google and so that's why we started
09:33hi-5 we saw a bunch of reasons why it
09:35worked at Google and we decided to make
09:37that technology available to every other
09:39company in in high-fives product and
09:41again it's about giving companies
09:43options on how to communicate what about
09:45the intimacy of like so one of the
09:47things that I've heard about VR for
09:49example is that virtual reality might be
09:51able to solve this problem where at the
09:52end of the day if you're doing like a
09:53multi-million dollar contract you're not
09:55gonna put that client on a video call or
09:57a phone call you're gonna fly get on a
09:59plane go over there and talk to them in
10:01person to close the deal and sign the
10:03contract do you guys believe that
10:05technology can truly replace that I mean
10:07I know you're not arguing for a
10:08replacement you're arguing for options
10:10optionality and augmentation and having
10:12choice but do you think that will ever
10:14get to a place where we can entirely
10:17over these technologies sets of
10:20technologies without having to ever come
10:21in person I mean the relationships you
10:27have with people and the like people
10:29like to work with people they like to
10:32work with and in getting that trust and
10:34familiarity and you build a lot of
10:36rapport over dinner and drinks I'm like
10:39I mean just more than just I'm here for
10:41my 4:00 o'clock meeting
10:43nice to meet you at 5:00 I get out and I
10:45go back on the plane so there's more I
10:47mean there's more to the fabric of the
10:48relationship that that I think that's
10:50important of but things like you know
10:53these technologies allow you to like
10:56effectively pare that down to the most
10:58important times when there's something
10:59big when Y hits you know it's time to go
11:02shake the hand or it's time they're
11:04having an issue and you've got to
11:05calm them down that's a face-to-face
11:07thing and I don't think we'll ever get
11:08and even if you had a killer virtual
11:10hologram I still would rather be an
11:12idolater a lot of the technologies are
11:16more transactional like when you make a
11:19phone call to somebody its transactional
11:23meaning I call you your phone rings you
11:27pick it up you talk and there's a whole
11:29formality to that right you wouldn't
11:31necessarily be call someone and just be
11:33on the line for four hours
11:35right and just chat back and forth
11:37nobody usually does that right you know
11:38and that's because of the technology I
11:40don't know it's a social norms right a
11:43beam on the other hand we have engineers
11:46that sit on the beam for more than just
11:49six eight hours at a time and they
11:53overhear conversations so they're
11:56working from Indiana from you know from
11:59Vancouver all around the world and they
12:01basically are there with their team
12:03embedded with their team and then
12:05whenever they hear something that's
12:06about what something they're working on
12:08they pipe in and say hey yeah I'm just
12:10working on that right now or when done
12:12with it a little bit here's how here it
12:13is or when they are talking to somebody
12:16other team members can overhear the
12:18conversations and things like that right
12:20right which you don't usually get that
12:22on a on a conference call or a voice
12:24call because it's very transactional
12:26it's like only I have to talk to
12:28whomever or something like that and
12:29that's why a lot of companies like to
12:31co-locate all the employees in the same
12:33room without anything is because they
12:35want that serendipity of communication
12:38right and with all the other
12:40technologies like phone and video
12:43conferencing on all those things you
12:44don't get that serendipity because
12:46usually like if you have a video
12:48conferencing room you have to go to that
12:50room and so only the people that are
12:52absolutely necessary for that are gonna
12:53go to that room where's the beam product
12:57you are present there you you you move
13:00around you can even you know you can you
13:04can go right up to somebody right in
13:05their face and say hey when are you
13:07gonna get this thing done all right I
13:09need this like and it's something like
13:11it's like really amazing when someone
13:13closes their door you can go up to the
13:14door and ram into their door
13:17push that door open and come into there
13:19off and say hey we gotta get this done
13:22and that's a very the adding that
13:26physical portion of it I believe it
13:29brings it to the next level that's why
13:30we call our system as a smart present
13:32system where is you you have cell phones
13:33and you have smart phones smart phones
13:35as a whole level much more than just a
13:38cell phone all right it's all about
13:40talking it's all about all the other
13:41things that are yeah we ran a survey or
13:43we were in a study a couple months back
13:45and one of the things that we learned I
13:48don't know if this is going to be a
13:49surprise to anybody but turns out
13:51two-thirds of people actually prefer
13:52in-person meetings over everything
13:54that's interesting and you know
13:57everybody jokes about how meetings suck
13:59and they're terrible and all of that yet
14:01two-thirds of people actually prefer
14:02in-person meetings I think it's what
14:05both Scott and Craig are talking about
14:07here which is there's something about
14:09being physically present that makes a
14:11difference now when we think about
14:13communication tools for today's world I
14:16think it's one of those the ways that we
14:19like to think about it is that it's kind
14:21of a compromise it doesn't make sense to
14:23be there in person all the time because
14:25it might just not require the investment
14:27if I need to catch up with a customer or
14:29a partner or somebody who's working in a
14:31different geography sometimes a phone
14:33call suffices oftentimes video could be
14:37a useful tool when a phone call isn't
14:39enough to convey what you're talking
14:41about but being getting there in person
14:43is just too onerous so when we think
14:45about the ways that people communicate
14:47it's always a spectrum you know I
14:48thought the absolute lowest end might be
14:51a text message at the highest end might
14:52be jumping on a plane to go meet with
14:54them meet with somebody and there's a
14:57whole bunch of options in between and
14:58the way we really like to think about
15:00sort of what companies are trying to
15:03accomplish is it's really about the
15:04culture it's about how do you preserve
15:06the the culture between all of your
15:09people and that's kind of where we see
15:10at least video being a very powerful
15:12tool because if you can't be there in
15:14person it's a really powerful way to
15:16help connect people at a cultural level
15:20that's exactly right and particularly
15:22internal to your company having your
15:26able to dictate you know what's the
15:27platform so everyone interrupts with
15:30everyone and it's really easy and you
15:31have this culture of hey grab this guy
15:33even if he's not there and I can't eat
15:35it's exactly like ours there's not big
15:37cubicle walls there's not a lot of desks
15:39or offices with closed doors it's wide
15:42open and it's wide open for a reason so
15:44you can have that product can talk to
15:46marketing katate sales can talk to
15:48engineering can talk to design like all
15:50the time in having that for you know
15:53people who aren't physically there being
15:55able to have can I be part of that
15:57conversation is really really important
15:59to the culture and to make a better
16:00product well so I'm hearing some themes
16:02around culture productivity the
16:04physicality of it so let's actually take
16:06a step back now and talk about the
16:08implications for etiquette and design so
16:10what I'm curious about is how does this
16:12ship because one funny thing about being
16:14which I love is that when we have
16:16meetings and you know in some of the GPS
16:18are remote and one of them will roll in
16:20there are things that will do to the
16:21beam that we will not do to them in
16:23person yeah it just makes me think about
16:24like how these technologies because
16:27you're all talking about this theme of
16:28human connection how they shift our
16:30social interactions with people can you
16:33guys share some insights from each of
16:34your work and your own history and
16:36trying to build these products we had a
16:38customer they were they're in there
16:41based out of they're based out of
16:43Wisconsin the Midwest and I'll try not
16:47to be too specific but we they had two
16:51teams that were just at each other's
16:53throats I mean they just could not get
16:56along there every single thing ran into
16:58an issue and we ended up deploying
17:00high-five there and as soon as you
17:04deployed high-five across those multiple
17:06offices and these are two offices that
17:08were you know right across the street
17:09from each other as soon as you required
17:12all of their meetings to be done over
17:15video and you know the thing that made
17:17it work was it was easy to you all that
17:19kind of stuff but as soon as you got
17:20everyone to be able to just plug in and
17:22use video everything softened because
17:25when you look at someone you're gonna be
17:28way less reluctant to go and say some
17:32really bad things to them in the way
17:34that you might over the phone like some
17:35of us might have done the support person
17:37that you know on the last product that
17:39frustrated but when you use video it's
17:42hard to look at somebody in the eye and
17:44say oh my god and so and so we saw that
17:49benefit and we got all these notes back
17:51from our customer he was just who said
17:52you know what we have these two teams
17:54that are working together and that
17:56hasn't happened in you know months I
17:59think that sort of connection I think
18:01that's one of the best ways that I can
18:03describe the ability to - or the power
18:06of being able to see see someone when
18:07you're talking to them yeah I think it
18:09actually it that notion that you you
18:12don't want to offend another person you
18:14want to be most socially conscious I
18:15believe it has more to do with it's just
18:19your human allottee see when you see
18:23somebody else your brain like you know
18:27we have long line of evolution sees
18:29another face and go well that there's a
18:31person there yeah and this technology
18:36has only come about in the last 20 years
18:39where you can interact with a screen
18:42right and then there's a person on the
18:44other side and your brain just hasn't
18:45evolved to actually understand that no
18:47other person is actually not there right
18:49but in all intensive purposes is so for
18:53instance in our product since our
18:54product now you can move it's really
18:57I've sat in meetings where I'm the only
19:01person in meet form and everyone I've
19:04been in like six or seven beams all
19:06surrounding me for hours and afterwards
19:09I said I walk out that long huh I just
19:11sat in a room bunch of pieces of metal
19:13and plastic right but my brain told me
19:17that there were all these people there
19:18right and I was interact with all these
19:19people I knew I was you know interacting
19:22and being very productive with right so
19:24I think there's a there's a looser brain
19:27thing going on we're where once you add
19:32video when you can see the eyes are the
19:33person that adds enormous amounts right
19:36and then when you add the ability to
19:38move it's just really hard for your
19:41brain to go you know to think it's not
19:43real do you think the flipside is also
19:45true where sometimes you actually want
19:46the intimacy of just voice and not have
19:49to see someone's face and interact with
19:51them physically whether it's through
19:53body or you know person we have a policy
19:54of all the employees once
19:56once beamed in a customer or employee or
19:59anybody beamed in you're not allowed to
20:01touch the beam at all we want it we
20:03apply the same principles as if they
20:06were there so you don't touch them even
20:08if it would be more easier for you to
20:11move them around you don't touch them
20:12and that's sort of an etiquette that you
20:15guys just haven't learned it's funny you
20:16say that because the way it came about
20:18was Peter had beamed out of his office
20:20and he was rolling back to his office
20:22and then he bumped into a group of us
20:23you know having a little water cooler
20:24conversation basically for lack of a
20:26better phrase because there was no water
20:27cooler there but we were standing there
20:28and we were all kind of laughing about
20:30talking and seeing Peter there we were
20:32treating him as if he were a person
20:34because we knew it was Peter what was
20:37really interesting about the interaction
20:38was that it broke a little thing that we
20:40couldn't have done otherwise but you're
20:41right at the end of the day we do try to
20:43treat the person respectfully as if
20:45they're a person but because they're not
20:47there in person you can do a few extra
20:49things you might not be able to
20:50necessarily do otherwise well well we
20:52actually say that they're actually there
20:53in person and they're actually fit
20:55they're physically there and they are
20:57there in person that's what we tell you
20:59should be viewing that's how we view it
21:00it's like there is no real difference
21:02one of the values of you know working
21:04from home or working remotely or not
21:06being in the office is the ability to
21:07not have to be presentable to the office
21:10level at all times and I got to tell you
21:12I love working from home I'll take early
21:14morning calls I'll take late night calls
21:16but you don't want to be seeing me for a
21:18lot of those calls and I sound you know
21:20like no one knows and that's actually
21:22great and it's it's not just me it's
21:24like you know our team loves it we
21:26actually work remotely Tuesdays and
21:28Thursdays just so we can work from home
21:30and crush it without having to deal with
21:31commutes and anything that's gonna slow
21:33us down and with you know we have video
21:35we have hangouts we have what confidence
21:37we have switch we have ways to
21:38communicate like all the time
21:40but there's plenty of times where where
21:42video isn't an option and there's plenty
21:45of times outside of the company when
21:47you're talking to you know vendors
21:48customers partners what have you and
21:50they don't have a beam in their office
21:51so they don't have a high-five in their
21:53office you know let's just have a super
21:55efficient conversation so yeah I love I
21:58love like the Oh Bailey I love all the
22:01video stuff but I also love sometimes
22:03just be in the sultry voice I think it's
22:05interesting too because there's a power
22:07differential that's addressed through
22:08some of these technologies where people
22:10who wouldn't otherwise be able to come
22:11into the office like working parents you
22:13know who are on babysitting duty or
22:15other things like there are things that
22:16it liberate cyou from not having to be
22:19physically tied to a particular location
22:20so let's just switch gears and talk
22:22about um so let's talk about tools so
22:24okay so we're still treating these as
22:26isolated tools and you guys are not
22:27talking about them as part of an
22:28ecosystem of tools that you can choose
22:30in different contexts and settings but
22:32how do these technologies fit in with
22:34the other tools that we use every day
22:35well I mean the crazy thing to me is
22:37there was just a report out last month
22:40of how many businesses have moved to the
22:43cloud for their email and their
22:45it's like currently it's at forty eight
22:47percent which it's pretty high but it
22:49still makes you realize that 52 percent
22:51of the businesses aren't right and so
22:54they're using you know the exchange
22:56server in the back room and they're
22:58using you know the DVDs of office 2012
23:02in their computers like insane right so
23:04we're looking at this as this this trend
23:07of everyone moving to the cloud is
23:09happening because it was a much smaller
23:11percentage just a couple of years ago
23:13but there's still a whole chunk that
23:14aren't there yet so so we love we love
23:17that trend and they're really gonna it's
23:19a two horse race you're either gonna
23:20move to the cloud with your productivity
23:22suite it's gonna be Google Apps or it's
23:24gonna be office 365 and office 365 it
23:27was this recent bit class report but
23:29like has now overtaken Google Apps and
23:32just over the last year it went from 7%
23:34to 25% of the market and so we look at
23:37that of like okay great I don't want to
23:39have to sell to the guy who's still
23:42running exchange and DVDs in his office
23:45the guys who the 48% have moved to the
23:48cloud hey that's perfect
23:50their IT guys effectively raised his
23:52hand and said I get the cloud and I
23:54I want my workers to be productive from
23:56anywhere I want to be able to
23:57collaborate on documents anywhere I get
23:59their calendar from anywhere and send
24:01and check their email from everywhere
24:02and if they do that for us to go in and
24:05say yes shouldn't your phone system be
24:07the same way isn't it crazy that you
24:09have a PBX with a phone on your desk
24:11that's ringing when no one's there to
24:13answer it and I guarantee if you look at
24:16the stats on that PBX even when they're
24:18sitting at their desk the guy is talking
24:22so that's I mean it's that shift to
24:25those online tools for productivity that
24:28means communications goes with it and
24:30you want to have video everywhere and
24:31you want to have the ability to be as if
24:34you're in your office when you're not in
24:35your office and all these things weave
24:37together really nicely and then once you
24:39know from a from kind of like the phone
24:41system perspective once you have that in
24:43the cloud you can start doing cool stuff
24:45like Shaun calls me as it's ringing it's
24:48shown him me his LinkedIn profile like
24:50you can't get that on a phone call but
24:52you can do it now that it's coming
24:53through a cloud base so because it's
24:55digitized you get more contacts that
24:56will embedded from yes once we see the
24:58phone and we're coming in we can go do a
25:01search and do all these public searches
25:02or go into my address book see who it is
25:04grab his email then search on the email
25:06and pull in more information if he was a
25:08if he was an opportunity in a in
25:10Salesforce it could pop up that before I
25:13even answer the call I could know where
25:14he is in the pipeline and stuff so
25:16there's just so much more you can do
25:18once it's all kind of into the cloud
25:20that all those tools become really nice
25:22if you have a platform that can take
25:24advantage of it it actually reminds me
25:26of Mark Weiser's concept of ubiquitous
25:27computing and what would the natural
25:29successor of that was going to be
25:31context-- aware computing is actually
25:33making context-aware computing more of a
25:35reality with all these things call it
25:37context where communications right so
25:39before you even start talking you know
25:41what the topics gonna be about right I
25:44have the last three emails I traded with
25:46Sean right there and finally it's
25:47probably gonna be about one of those or
25:49the last three documents we collaborated
25:50on right there so it does make it much
25:54better than just the blind answer of low
25:56this is Greg you know I think I'm gonna
25:57probably take sort of a a a sort of less
26:03kind of sort of future looking kind of
26:06lens at it and and you know I think the
26:09thing that we find most interesting is
26:11that we have all of these tools in front
26:13of us an integration with all these
26:15tools is really important because we're
26:17all just trying at the end of the day
26:18we're just trying to get work done I'm
26:20trying to sell a new customer I'm trying
26:23to run a new campaign I'm trying to
26:25build a product and I just need to get
26:28my job done and tools more often than
26:30not get in the way and how many of us
26:32have walked into a conference room and
26:34if you walk into a converse
26:35from these days it feels like it feels
26:38like maybe we just stepped into a time
26:40machine from like 1980 right and what's
26:44the first thing that happens we spend 15
26:47minutes trying to figure out how we get
26:49someone connected how do I get my
26:51document up on the screen how do i dial
26:55in this other person and we're busy
26:58shooting Rockets off to the moon
26:59building cars that drive themselves but
27:01we spend every single meeting burning 15
27:04minutes of everyone's time trying to get
27:06everyone connected that is so true I
27:08will still have that problem we all have
27:09that problem every single one of us has
27:10said this and somebody you know and
27:12every single one of us I imagine have
27:14probably actus it echoed the same exact
27:16thing somebody should fix this and so if
27:19you go look at you know the set of tools
27:21that we're talking about here I think
27:22they're all sort of attempts at fixing
27:25that problem and a lot of the reason why
27:26that problem exists is that the set of
27:29tools from 10 15 20 years ago that
27:31people are still using that 52 percent
27:33of the market are still using today they
27:35just didn't contemplate what today's
27:37world was they were invented when they
27:39were invented went before the internet
27:41was a thing they were invented before
27:43Wi-Fi existed they were invented before
27:46laptops became popular and these are
27:48still the same tools we're using today
27:49and so that's the the way we really
27:52think about how you participate in the
27:53ecosystem how do you design something
27:55that's doesn't that that assumes the
27:58things that we have today smartphones a
28:01high bandwidth connections the ability
28:03to connect to a cloud service and so the
28:06way we think about the world is just
28:07solve that problem of getting the first
28:0915 minutes of us connected and let
28:12people just do their work and whatever
28:14we need to integrate with to help people
28:15do their work that's that's the way we
28:17think about the world interesting
28:20integration we have a slightly different
28:22problems with integration because we at
28:24our devices are our physical nature and
28:26so so they have to basically be well
28:29we're integrating with things that other
28:32products can't like we're going to gate
28:33with doors like be able to open and
28:35click door so for instance that are we
28:41have a store on University Ave in Palo
28:44Alto right across for you from the Apple
28:46store and it's it's been we
28:49you opened it in October of last year a
28:52Halloween all right was her first day
28:54was open and it's a fully automated
28:56store there are no none of my employees
28:59are there in meat form it's been an
29:01entire year and the doors are all
29:03automated that everything in the whole
29:05store the store is automated so that's
29:07what kind of we had to integrate with
29:08right is actual it's just uh HVAC
29:13systems alarm systems because you know
29:16when the when you you have the alarm set
29:17on your building and then you beam in
29:19and moving around you can set off the
29:21motion sensors inside so we have to be a
29:23little interface to those things to turn
29:25those off while you're beamed in so okay
29:27so one last question then as a natural
29:28follow-up from this question around the
29:30tools and the integration and the
29:31environment or with other tools what are
29:33some of the design lessons or
29:35experiences you guys have had cuz all of
29:37you built products for many many years
29:39and over different types of companies I
29:43mean what are some of the interesting
29:45things that have come up with the
29:46problems you're solving for today like
29:47on the design side of things so the UM
29:50the interesting thing is for you know
29:52for switch or uber conference we can't
29:55just build this really cool web app or
29:57this will really cool mobile app that
29:59does all this cool stuff over IP and
30:01talks to its other people in IP we
30:03actually have to integrate with this 140
30:05year old PSTN phone system that's kind
30:08of like the lowest common denominator
30:10all around the world right so so it's
30:13not only can we just be the coolest next
30:16gen guys you actually have to work like
30:17as someone in Schaumburg Illinois
30:20picking up their telephone expects it to
30:22work with really reliable dial tone and
30:24I can call any number in the world and
30:26get a call from anywhere in the world so
30:28like beyond just design like the whole
30:30infrastructure behind it like we now
30:32have you know data centers on four
30:34continents we can make sure the voice
30:36quality is great no matter where you are
30:37in the world and we have you know
30:39companies with offices in 42 countries
30:42where we're able to get phone numbers
30:43and have to do all this like traditional
30:45stuff but the good news is like all
30:47those traditional telephony guys
30:49generally are the worst designers on the
30:51planet if you've ever seen an interface
30:53for a PBX or like a traditional phone
30:56system they're horrific right no one
30:58like knives at Yahoo they put in a new
31:00PBX and they handed us like a hundred
31:01on how to use it oh my god terrible so
31:04so being able to kind of like have a
31:07group that has that killer web design
31:10aesthetic of end user first it should be
31:13intuitive it should be delightful it
31:14should make sense you shouldn't need
31:16instructions and then being able to like
31:19cross that Venn diagram of the Bell
31:21telephony world of it has to work
31:23everywhere and comply with regulations
31:26everywhere like very few people care
31:28companies do that really well so like
31:30we've always and we have out of a
31:32hundred people ten percent of the
31:34company we have ten designers and it's
31:35always been we've always had a minimum
31:37of like five designers one of our
31:39co-founders was a designer just because
31:41it's so important and it's you know when
31:43you're competing in the telephony world
31:44it's one thing that can really
31:46distinguish you from the competition
31:47because usually design is the last thing
31:49to think about well even if it's
31:50something subtle cuz I remember when you
31:52got you still do but when you had like
31:54fun listening music while you're waiting
31:56on hold which I thought was brilliant
31:58because the worst thing is music it's
32:00like oh my god he'll kill me now
32:02but yeah even little details like that I
32:04think you mentioned the word delight I
32:05think that's interesting and important
32:07because we're talking about human
32:08connection here and human connections
32:10aren't just about transaction they are
32:11about delight and joy and all the other
32:13things that sadness that come with it
32:15just because you're going to work
32:17doesn't mean you leave your humanity
32:20behind right like it doesn't mean you
32:22should use these coal dust here you know
32:23very tools you still want you know like
32:26that's why people like their iPhones
32:27that work if you can serve that consumer
32:29sensibility in the enterprise and still
32:31give them high quality and security and
32:33all the things they need then you're
32:34onto something we you know video is not
32:37new technology but the problem is video
32:40was just never used and there's a couple
32:42of reasons for that we were joking about
32:44telepresence being kind of like the
32:45mainframe market but that's what it was
32:46it was really expensive gear that you
32:49had to install in these huge closets
32:51right and the only people that could use
32:53them because they were so expensive were
32:55the executives and the important people
32:57in your company and these are the people
33:00that had access to dedicated IT people
33:02who would come and set up the call so
33:03that you could have a big video call but
33:06what we discovered is if you can make it
33:10make the technology really easy to use
33:12if you can make it affordable you can
33:15way more broadly so that the average
33:17person can walk in and just use a system
33:20and not burn 15 minutes trying to do the
33:22thing that they're trying to do which is
33:23just get their work done and so what we
33:26found was that that design was the was
33:29was a huge part of why of what is needs
33:33to happen to the whole world of video
33:34solve the technology problem and solve
33:37the design problem in the intersection
33:38that I think Craig is dealing with in
33:40the sort of the telephony world same
33:42thing applies to the the video world one
33:44of the first five hires we had was a
33:47head of design the thing that's
33:49remarkable I think is everyone just
33:52wants everything to work but when you go
33:53sit down and really analyze what people
33:56are trying to do there's about 10 15 20
33:59different use cases that you're trying
34:01to do whether you realize it or not and
34:04that's the power of being able to apply
34:06design which is thinking about all of
34:08those different use cases weaving them
34:10together and then making the technology
34:12work underneath that to go deliver a
34:13seamless easy to use experience that you
34:16can use to actually bring to not just
34:18important people in your company how do
34:19we take video and make that something
34:21that is applicable to everybody in your
34:23company well I love what you're saying
34:24because it's basically talking about
34:26using design to democratize
34:27communication to anybody regardless of
34:29company size or importance or hierarchy
34:32yeah exactly right and I think what
34:34design should do I mean we tend to treat
34:36design as this rarefied thing but we
34:39forget that ease of use is actually what
34:41what opens the daughter to that democra
34:42exactly I think that companies are our
34:46products that try to they don't think
34:50about where are they putting the the
34:52cognitive load right over like how to
34:54use a product like learning how to use a
34:56product I think that's one of the
34:57problems with a lot of the traditional
35:00teleconferencing systems are that it
35:04requires both parties to learn how to
35:05use it right today in order to
35:08communicate and then so it and so that's
35:10why a lot of the old video conferencing
35:12stuff never got don't get that much
35:14usage because the you know one side
35:17might people wanting to use it the other
35:18price ID is like I don't have time to
35:19learn how I use this thing right or they
35:20don't have the resources to get someone
35:22there to actually help them use it right
35:24and so in a design of our product and my
35:29you should only put the burden of
35:31learning on the person who most benefits
35:34from that technology right you shouldn't
35:37put it on someone who doesn't really
35:38benefit from it right so you wouldn't
35:40like was a good example it's like so for
35:44our product the remote person the person
35:46who is not there right on the beam
35:49product has to learn how to to use a
35:52software install it and all that stuff
35:54right but the person that is on the
35:56receiving side of the beam doesn't have
35:58to learn how to do anything I mean like
36:00you said you were standing around with
36:04no water cooler and and someone came up
36:07and was starting to and so you basically
36:10were using the technology but you didn't
36:14have to do you'd have to use any hands
36:15anything at all and so if you look at
36:17the beam product there are no buttons on
36:19at all there's no switches there's no
36:20dials there's nothing to do on your side
36:23and that was very intentional that
36:25there's nothing to do because I didn't
36:27want the person who is on the receiving
36:31side of Technology to have to learn
36:33anything it reminds me of the not using
36:35the pin codes because that was very
36:37separate even that is very liberating
36:38for me is to get on a call without ever
36:41having to worry about trying to find a
36:42pin code even I mean because it puts a
36:44burden on me participant to have to find
36:47the number exactly it's interesting you
36:49talk about the cognitive load problem
36:50how does it how does it change how you
36:53design I mean I know you've talked about
36:55shifting the load so you put all the
36:57design features all the controls on the
36:59person who is the remote entity well
37:03it's it's it's actually really simple
37:04you you say no buttons yeah like no
37:08nothing like not nothing on visible on
37:12the device at all and so you're like
37:15well I don't know what to do I mean if
37:17you walk up to it and it's not on not
37:18being used there's nothing you can
37:20actually do with the thing it's just
37:21sitting there right and so you don't
37:23into when people see something with
37:25buttons on it they sometimes go oh I
37:27don't want to even try that thing
37:29because I and I mean I need to learn
37:30something right how to do something and
37:33so if you make a product that just just
37:35works that's awesome right it's just
37:39like it's just intuitive because it just
37:41are it's already working
37:42front of you sort of how we that's how I
37:45see it's right and so I think Steve Jobs
37:47was like oh only one button on the mouse
37:49or whatever right and and eventually got
37:53rid of all the buttons and just make the
37:54whole entire thing a button basically
37:55that's what the the advent of things to
37:58make things look simple I think there's
38:00the thing about making it look simple
38:02where it's on the surface it's simple
38:04but it's very sophisticated once you get
38:06to learn I'm right yeah right well
38:08there's also a school of thought that
38:09says that the more you make certain
38:10features obscure the harder it is for
38:12some users to figure things out and
38:14troubleshoot but if it works you should
38:17not have to troubleshoot yeah if
38:19you're if you're getting value from
38:20product you know it should just work
38:22exactly and I love this so it should
38:24just work and it should allow us to do
38:26our work um okay well I think that's all
38:29we have time for everyone thank you for
38:31your time and for joining the a 6nz
38:33podcast thanks so much thank you so much
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