00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6 & Z
00:02podcast I'm sonal we recently took the a
00:046 and Z podcast on the road to New York
00:07City and so today's episode features a
00:09fly-on-the-wall recording of a
00:11conversation between venture capitalists
00:13and longtime internet investor Fred
00:15Wilson of Union Square Ventures and a 6
00:18and Z crypto general partner Chris Dixon
00:21the to discuss everything from current
00:23tech trends like AI to seemingly more
00:25mature trends like mobile and cloud to
00:28the advent of crypto and throughout the
00:30episode they weave through past and
00:32present in internet history to reflect
00:34on where we are now really to where we
00:36may go next are we seeing disruption or
00:39is a lot of current innovation just as
00:41sustaining innovation to borrow from
00:43clay Christensen's framework or how
00:45about Carlota Perez this framework for
00:46tech revolution and financial capital
00:48does that fully apply to software and
00:50what precisely is so unique about
00:52software itself and how might that
00:54affect internet native applications for
00:56things like crypto the to discuss all
00:58this and much more in this episode of
01:00the a6 insi podcast as a reminder the
01:02content provided here is for
01:03informational purposes only and does not
01:06constitute an offer or solicitation to
01:08purchase any investment solution or a
01:09recommendation to buy or sell a security
01:11nor is it to be taken as legal business
01:14investment or tax advice please also see
01:17a 6 + Z crypto comm slash disclosures
01:20for further information there so 2018
01:23you know I don't know what it is now 25
01:27years into the inner sort of the modern
01:29the mainstream internet some some very
01:33large you know trillion dollar tech
01:36incumbents very venture industry has
01:40grown dramatically tech seems more
01:42mainstream some people argue it's
01:45perhaps becoming mature you know maybe
01:48it's like TV where there's like 4 TV
01:51channels and there's four big incumbents
01:52there's all sorts of interesting stuff
01:54happening and like crypto and AI and new
01:58devices like virtual reality and
02:00augmented reality and self-driving cars
02:01and drones there's interesting stuff
02:04happening verticals like changes in
02:06healthcare and real estate and finance
02:08you know so I guess a question I think
02:11about a lot and I'm sure you do is
02:13is where are we now and how does that
02:17inform how we think about the next
02:19decade two decades so you know I think
02:24it's really important to have a
02:25framework and as a lot of people who you
02:28know follow me and us vino we're really
02:31big fans of Carlota Perez and if you
02:34look at the big technological shifts
02:37that have happened over the past 200 300
02:40years what you see is that many of them
02:44last for kind of a century right like
02:48automotive or more broadly speaking
02:51industrial or manufacturing based
02:53businesses were kind of the
02:55technological revolution of the 20th
02:57century and even though internet and
03:00tech kind of emerged very powerfully in
03:03the 80s and 90s I think we might argue
03:07that internet and tech really is the
03:11technological revolution of the century
03:13we're in now and so if that's the case
03:17it's 2018 we have 82 more years to go
03:22and yet like we're feeling like it's
03:25already a mature sector right we're
03:27looking at are saying Google Amazon
03:29Facebook Apple you know they have these
03:33massive entrenched platforms and it's
03:36becoming really really hard to compete
03:39with them how could we have you know
03:42another 50 60 70 years to go and I think
03:47you know going back to something that
03:48Marc Andreessen said you know in the
03:51original design of the internet and the
03:54world wide web you know we didn't
03:56necessarily get it all right and so what
04:00we have now in terms of like these
04:03entrenched platforms is maybe a function
04:07of what the spec was that we've been
04:10building on for the past 25 or 30 years
04:12and if we could maybe broaden out what
04:17the protocols are to a point where you
04:21know we could have a much more open and
04:25level playing field we might actually
04:27have a lot more ways to go so that's me
04:30speaking optimistically about where we
04:32are let me give you a maybe more often
04:35even more famous images so i one thing i
04:37went with Carlota Perez and I think it's
04:39a brilliant you know brilliant theory
04:41and explains a lot of history but I
04:43wonder if software is different than
04:45hardware and and let me start explain
04:48that so you build a car you know 1900
04:50ish you build cars you have Ford and GM
04:53etc they get better but you know they
04:55don't dramatically the cars has stayed
04:58mostly the same you know obviously got
05:01better but they're they're still the
05:02same basic function same basic you know
05:06kind of design and then all the action
05:09from I don't know nineteen probably what
05:1232 today moved to kind of the
05:14quote-unquote a player right it was it
05:16was an interstate highway system and
05:18shopping centers and trucking systems
05:21and they sort of the quote apps of cars
05:22right right and then TV right like so TV
05:25you build the TV you have the radio well
05:27you know they build the the the physical
05:29infrastructure and then maybe you
05:30upgrade color HD or somebody's
05:33fundamentally fixed right it's
05:34fundamentally once you've built the core
05:35it's fundamentally done and then you
05:36just build around it right the internet
05:38as you know is is deliberately designed
05:41to be a very lightweight protocol where
05:45all of the intelligence lies at the
05:48nodes and the servers and in our
05:51software base and can upgrade themselves
05:53and so I guess the what I would say is I
05:57wonder if software because it's a it's
05:59fundamentally a software that I mean of
06:01course at the at the bottom level it's
06:02copper and other you know fiber and
06:04other things in radio waves um but but
06:07the heart of it is software and I just
06:09wonder if software has my view software
06:11has so many more degrees of freedom it
06:13has so much more kind of plasticity
06:15ability to adapt ability to evolve that
06:18may be unlike the car and the TV that
06:22the core itself will also dramatically
06:24change and not just the apps around it
06:26so I think certainly the total economic
06:32value that will be unlocked with the
06:35software revolution should be at least
06:40three orders of magnitude bigger than
06:41what we saw with manufacturing
06:44automotive you know for the reasons you
06:46described I just think that it's just if
06:48everything if we can get everything into
06:50software then just imagine like what the
06:53possibilities are right
06:54it's the expressive power or the it's
06:57the design a much richer design space
06:59you can write you can do so many you can
07:00encode any kind of human process can be
07:02encoded in software yeah I mean even
07:04even you know the greatest thing about
07:06Tesla is the over-the-air software
07:08upgrade it's like literally get in the
07:09car and all of a sudden I got a new
07:11upgrade and there's you know new
07:12software all of a sudden they actually
07:14fix they actually fixed like the braking
07:15and stuff right today that they pushed
07:18an update to people who were who have
07:21cars in the affected areas of Hurricane
07:23Florence I don't know but to make a
07:24batteries last longer right like so that
07:26they could go long without charging
07:28that's amazing this think about
07:29that boom okay imagine like Elon Musk
07:32woke up thinking he was gonna do that
07:34and he just hits a buck well it has
07:35implications like so if I remember
07:37reading a book about Ford and the whole
07:38you know the big problem was they they
07:40broke down all the time and so the big
07:41innovation was service centers
07:43everywhere and so you know this this
07:46change in being able to update
07:48over-the-air also changes for example
07:50the service model and nice and and
07:51therefore that kind of almost you know
07:53the industry structure but I mean the
07:54card I mean that is that car is still
07:56not a piece of software right there's
07:59more software in that car driving for my
08:04entire life and so so you know we'll get
08:08more and more of what we interface with
08:10in business and our personal life
08:12whatever that's gonna be software as
08:14opposed to hardware and I just think
08:15that that makes the total available
08:18market of this technological shift way
08:20way way larger I think we're in a moment
08:22in time where it feels like there's not
08:26a lot of innovation and you know I will
08:29admit that you know the past innovation
08:33or disruptions disruption yeah there's a
08:36lot of innovation right I mean this
08:37great stuff happening in AI and
08:39self-driving cars and a lot of screwing
08:42it has a really good example right so
08:44you know if you if you look at the big
08:47tech companies I don't think that they
08:50were disrupted very much by the shift
08:53and I don't think they're gonna be
08:54disrupted very much by the adoption of
08:57AI images may further entrench their
09:01monopolies because of the data the fact
09:03that you're differentiating the AI
09:05through data and and they're most likely
09:07to have the most data
09:07I forget where I read this and this is
09:09this data is now four or five years old
09:10but if you look at the top hundred
09:13mobile apps and you look at what the top
09:15hundred websites were before the iPhone
09:17came out it's not a very different list
09:19right so you know those companies
09:22Facebook I think is the perfect example
09:24of this saw that the mobile phone and
09:27mobile apps could potentially disrupt
09:29them they pivoted their focus to get
09:33there and they got there and the net of
09:35it is that they're in a stronger
09:37position than ever so I don't think you
09:40know that a lot of the innovation is
09:44currently powering a lot of disruption
09:47one thing that mobile did you know you
09:49take the ride-hailing as an example it
09:51did enable new behaviors which allowed
09:54for startup opportunities that right I
09:57mean so it did you know ever I think of
09:59it as every new computing platform has
10:00new capabilities right and generally
10:02startups will exploit the uniquely new
10:04capabilities and incumbents may or may
10:06not successfully pour it over to the
10:10platform in the case of mobile they did
10:11but it also I'm not you know so you have
10:13the intimacy of the camera allowed for
10:15snapchat is but even that you know I've
10:18always thought that the Maps layer could
10:22commoditize the entire ride-sharing
10:24business hasn't right like uber and lyft
10:26and a bunch of other companies a bunch
10:28of companies in Asia dominate that
10:30business but I don't understand why the
10:33map on your phone whether it's an iPhone
10:36or an Android phone isn't the
10:39ride-sharing application and then all of
10:40these ride-sharing networks may be what
10:43Google wants to do longer-term I won't
10:45think with their self-driving car or
10:46effort in there it's like you've got a
10:48but you use Google Maps you open it up
10:49you got a button get a car right and
10:51like why doesn't that happen today I
10:53don't get it like how I mean I don't I
10:55don't understand why the map interface
10:58hasn't become the default interface for
11:00dispatch of anything whether it's a
11:03scooter or a car or a bike or whatever
11:05maybe it's just like it's going to
11:07sometime yeah maybe that's that doesn't
11:08happen overnight but that's where I want
11:11to do the dispatch so even that I think
11:15you know the mobile OS has have the
11:17opportunity to suck that functionality
11:20in and that is one thing that's going on
11:22a lot right now is that the
11:24functionality is getting sucked more and
11:27more into the operating systems and the
11:30and the proprietary apps that these big
11:32companies have built on top of those
11:34operating systems and so that's what so
11:37when you say there's a lot of innovation
11:38what you I think what we're to clarify
11:40there's a lot of clever you know
11:42inventions happening it is a I I think
11:46if it is like AI do computing platforms
11:48crypto etc but there's the there's a lot
11:51of that happening but a lot of it feels
11:53sustaining is like clay Christensen
11:55would say not disruptive right so it
11:57will reinforce the current industry
12:00structure not change it I think that's
12:03but yet you know and this is why we're
12:06so interested in crypto I think crypto
12:08is is the one innovation out there that
12:11feels highly disruptive because it's a
12:13real change in business model it's not
12:15just a technological change it's a
12:17fundamental change in business model
12:19you're not monetizing with ads you're
12:21not monetizing with subscriptions you're
12:22monetizing with the underlying token
12:24it's just it's it's like we're fog and
12:26all - all of mobile wasn't mobile would
12:29some say was sustaining the internet was
12:30disruptive so in some ways crypto like
12:32the Internet is the first kind of
12:34potentially major disruptive wave is
12:37that your view yeah I mean I think what
12:39Google did is that they made advertising
12:43the business model for applications
12:46right like my mail and my you know my
12:51browsing and my searching is all
12:53supported by advertising like Microsoft
12:55would have made me pay for that right
12:58they would have said you're gonna pay
12:59for Explorer or you're gonna pay for
13:02outlook and and that's how we're gonna
13:05monetize it Google comes along and says
13:06no that's that's an ad product and so
13:08that's that's what's disruptive is like
13:10that's just everything changes when you
13:13change the business model it's like all
13:15of a sudden you know your strengths
13:17become your weaknesses and and that's
13:18what allows a lot of
13:20entrance to come in it's funny because I
13:22talked to people now who I think weren't
13:24around during the early internet and a
13:26lot of people will say I hear a lot that
13:29that well the internet came along and
13:30you know by 94 had all these killer abs
13:35you know I think one fun exercises to go
13:37watch movies from the 90's has a way
13:40does it kind of go back and look at it
13:41and first of all the interesting thing
13:42right the internet just doesn't exist
13:43there's no mobile phones right every
13:44once in a while someone will like it's
13:46like this ritual they'll say I'm gonna
13:48go online and like the very phrase like
13:50go online right kind of is this kind of
13:52archaic phrase that is from that era
13:54right and it's an in like this beeping
13:56and there's this and that and then
13:58there's you've got mail and they get on
13:59and they do this thing and then they get
14:00off and like it's this thing and it's
14:02this thing you do for ten minutes but it
14:04almost station if you actually watched
14:05movies in the nineties like the Internet
14:06even that doesn't happen right except
14:07for like hackers or some couple of like
14:09specialty movies or something right and
14:12it was essentially you know I mean it
14:13was like literally waiting for an image
14:15to load and like innovations of the time
14:17were things like having the image load
14:18in a less annoying way because it was
14:21that slow look I remember listening to
14:22what we would now call podcasts over
14:25dial-up in 97-98 a friend of mine Josh
14:30Harris had this company called pseudo
14:32and he was making basically audio and
14:35video wasn't it kind of like justin.tv
14:37lycoming his life and yeah yeah he he
14:41was just 15 years too early but he had
14:43all the right ideas and you know all the
14:46all the ideas that happened that weapons
14:48instacart like they all all of them I
14:50had this gaint this board game I still
14:52have it somewhere it was called dot bomb
14:53right and it was like making fun of all
14:56the terrible ideas I blogged about this
14:57once and it was like this joke game
14:59about all the stupid ideas the 90s and
15:01it's literally like every unicorn like
15:03high company today it was like internet
15:05money you know grocery delivery like
15:08well you know you and I are friendly
15:10with an entrepreneur here in Newark New
15:11York named decide man add assignment had
15:14YouTube in like 99 it just like didn't
15:17make any sense in 99 like like I mean I
15:21think it was 2000 was you to 2005 I
15:23think spice that was kind of the moment
15:27tipped and you could plausibly have
15:29right I mean and to Monowitz the
15:30internet didn't wasn't a real thing I
15:33think until you had broadband I hope
15:34everybody did I think I I think the two
15:37big moves that that made YouTube
15:39successful where's all the people who
15:41tried YouTube before YouTube were we're
15:44broadband that's like eighty to ninety
15:46percent of it and also social sharing
15:48it's the idea that you could take a
15:49youtube video and embed it on your
15:51MySpace page or even just send somebody
15:53like a URL and boom they hit it and they
15:56could watch something like the idea that
15:58everybody was gonna go somewhere to
16:01what's social and social sharing it blew
16:03that idea up now all of a sudden the
16:05embeddable youtube player yeah they're
16:10really like there's a whole concept
16:12before that was destination right
16:13business model part of it was a business
16:15model in addition to your earlier point
16:16right because the thought was you need
16:18to get eyeballs on your page stickiness
16:20these concepts which prevented people
16:23from from encouraging why disturb you
16:27have in bed like one one school of
16:29thought would have been letting people
16:30embed YouTube well how do you make money
16:31how do you do this right but that was
16:32one of the very insightful things the
16:35YouTube creators did right but broadband
16:37I think you know was the main thing but
16:40but everybody had had that opportunity
16:44right everybody who was trying to do
16:46YouTube at that time was benefiting from
16:48broadband so there were a couple things
16:49that YouTube did that others didn't do
16:52and I think the embeddable player was
16:54was maybe the move that differentiated
16:56them from everybody else and just maybe
16:58the timing plus they had a lot of
17:00venture capital money behind him so they
17:01could spend money sometimes that's
17:03different yeah they the I think I was
17:08reading this history as I think it was
17:09Vimeo and a few of the competitors and
17:10they had just as a whole different set
17:11of financial constraints and kind and
17:13also frankly the view towards copyright
17:15I think YouTube took a more
17:17laissez-faire view right but that
17:19ultimately caused them to have to sell
17:21to Google live because they concluded
17:22that they couldn't continue to play the
17:24game that way which was the right way to
17:25play the game as an independent company
17:28yeah they needed somebody who could
17:30fight the content owners yeah okay so
17:32going back to to what's happening today
17:34that bring it so kind of the big I mean
17:37I think there's there's multiple layers
17:39here right so there's kind of
17:40core tech trends I don't know if you
17:42agree but I think it's gonna be a kind
17:44of a proliferation of new kind of
17:45computing devices I'm so proud I think I
17:49think cloud is still any clouds like a
17:50ten year old story but I still think
17:54cloud is driving a lot of innovation
17:56like still think about infrastructure
17:57apps the SAS I'm thinking infrastructure
18:00it's it's pretty amazing how I'm having
18:02the fresh codebase having the fresh
18:03attitude the different perspective you
18:05can just you can kind of if you could
18:07build on night to them if you could
18:08build on stripe versus you couldn't
18:09build on stripe yeah you know like that
18:12was a big difference like that whole
18:15I mean that's the whole modern thing
18:16into the developer I think the whole
18:18concept of like developer experience
18:19right really thinking through you know I
18:21think you you didn't didn't you're
18:23obviously you were investor in Twilio
18:25right they one of their big focuses was
18:26kind of the time to time to delight or
18:28something or time to hello world or just
18:30like immediately getting in there and
18:31like the idea of introducing text
18:34messaging into your app like what's the
18:37big deal about having to be able to text
18:38natively from an app but you think about
18:40it and like so many little things but
18:44they're big things are enabled by an app
18:46being able to text you like with a
18:48two-factor code or your car's arriving
18:51or whatever like like and to do that
18:54before Twilio was was like hard and now
18:57it's like five lines of code and we're
18:59how do you think about so in in that in
19:02the cloud infrastructure world you have
19:04AWS as you're yeah Google that I think
19:07is game over mostly like maybe there's
19:10somebody's gonna come out from left
19:12field over in the sense of incumbents
19:14are winning or eight of us has won it or
19:15I think incumbents I think Google's
19:17gonna take some shared I feel like what
19:20Google is doing is they're going
19:21top-down into their market they're going
19:22to some of AWS as big as customers and
19:25they're saying you know we've got some
19:27better tech maybe they do maybe they
19:29we'll do it for less and we'll care
19:32about you where they don't they're
19:33taking share but I think it could be
19:35like Amazon has 60 percent of the market
19:37google is 30 percent of the market and
19:39Microsoft has 10 percent of the market I
19:40think it's gonna be a three-player game
19:42in that business and that's good
19:43I think the check the thing I hear from
19:45Google is the challenges it's just that
19:47the sort of the high touch concierge
19:49enterprise kind of model
19:51which those company you know that
19:53whatever the city banks of the right
19:54expect is just not something there you
19:57see although that now they have Diane
19:59green in that so maybe Microsoft will
20:01get there you know I've heard is
20:03Microsoft isn't making more progress
20:04because there used to because exactly
20:06that is I mean Microsoft fundamentally
20:08is an enterprise company okay right and
20:09they and they're very very good at sort
20:12of you know servicing these large
20:14corporate clients and then they also
20:16have these as I understand it these sort
20:17of like they they tie everything
20:18together it's effectively a new kind of
20:20bundling right you already have office
20:21you have all this other stuff but
20:22there's a second kind of enterprise
20:23customer there's there's the truly
20:26legacy legacy enterprise customers who
20:29are I think you're right it's a very
20:30high touch white glove kind of thing
20:32then there's the new enterprise
20:34companies the Spotify's of the world
20:36right like Spotify is gonna either be on
20:38Amazon Google or Microsoft but Spotify
20:42might not be high-touch yeah right they
20:44may just want a namely good
20:46infrastructure and they may care that
20:48for example Google seems to have an
20:49advantage on their you know their teepee
20:52use they write their AI chips for exam
20:54you know all the kind of bells and
20:55whistles and fancy technology they have
20:56which of course they will have I think
20:58winning the hearts and minds of
21:00developers is really hard when you've
21:03got an incumbent and it's like the
21:05standard like every developer knows how
21:07to build on AWS so if you're starting a
21:08company where are you gonna build it are
21:10you probably gonna database 90% of the
21:12companies maybe 95% of the companies we
21:14back are built on AWS but once you're an
21:17established company and you can think
21:19about maybe moving from one to another I
21:22do think I think that there'll be three
21:23players network so how do startups fit
21:25in into cloud it says well I think there
21:28are big beneficiaries of cloud
21:29infrastructure ok right today building
21:31on top and that's you're able to take
21:33what was capex and move it off X enough
21:35and worry you can focus on what you want
21:36to focus focus on music playing that's a
21:38story by the way that's a story has been
21:40playing out for for better part of 10
21:41years what I'm saying is I think there's
21:42still some legs to that like you were
21:44saying what are the big drivers it's AI
21:46it's a R and B are its crypto and then
21:49we were talking about a few other things
21:51that I think are still playing out and
21:52one of the things that's still playing
21:53out is cloud I think there's still some
21:54legs there I think also on the app side
21:58I mean Sassa I mean I think we live in
22:00this world where we think everything is
22:01you know is is SAS based and right
22:04the data I see it's something it's like
22:06sub 10% of corporate applications today
22:08are still you know it's um it's
22:10unbelievably low right I mean is still
22:12people are still using you know I don't
22:15know you go to the whatever you go to
22:16the United desk and they've got like a
22:17dass interface you go here and they got
22:19me says you know I mean the government
22:21hack was like COBOL you know like and so
22:23and a lot of its more modern but it's
22:25still like it's Windows it's whatever
22:27it's not you know we live in this kind
22:29of world of where we think everything is
22:31SAS delivered and so you know you see
22:33these really interesting things
22:34happening where like vertical SAS is an
22:36interesting trend right where you see
22:37this you know whatever massage parlors
22:40need their own billing and reservation
22:43system or something and it turns out
22:45that's a big market and people those
22:46people previously wouldn't really have
22:48software I kind of think of it almost
22:50like people have this view that like AI
22:53is gonna come take the jobs but they
22:56have this kind of anthropomorphic idea
22:59that it's gonna be like the Jetsons like
23:01this robot is gonna come in and take it
23:02and like move over I'm gonna type and do
23:04it but what actually the way that the
23:06jobs are actually taken is a much
23:08subtler thing which is these these new
23:11software applications just just you know
23:14whatever you knew you know payroll
23:16system you do payroll SAS app just
23:18suddenly you don't need as many people
23:19in your payroll department right and
23:20it's a much subtler thing and it's not a
23:22one-to-one transition and it's not a
23:24literal thing of like kind of like Elon
23:25Musk AI comes in and like replaces your
23:28payroll department it's just like more
23:30and more just kind of incremental
23:33software comes in and just makes
23:37everyone more efficient which takes jobs
23:39now I think also will create many jobs
23:42they'll just be it's just always harder
23:45to envision the jobs that are created
23:48than it is to envision the jobs that are
23:50destroyed you're talking about right now
23:52I think is where a lot of the action is
23:55in startups and venture capital right
23:57now I look at where you know a lot of
24:00the dollars are being invested where a
24:02lot of the value creation is happening
24:04where a lot of the bigger companies are
24:06getting built it is sort of in that
24:10I think consumer has gotten harder
24:13because of some of the things we've been
24:14talking about before but I don't think
24:17ass has gotten harder and so in a way I
24:20think for we've thought for the past
24:23four or five years it's more of a
24:26grinded out execution operational not
24:29super sexy style of startup and style of
24:32investing that has been winning the day
24:34and the things that were kind of
24:35happening in the latter part of the last
24:38decade where you had like a face book
24:40come out of nowhere a Twitter come out
24:42of nowhere YouTube come out of nowhere
24:43where theses were making a hundred times
24:45their money on these huge big consumer
24:47breakouts we see those but not as money
24:50yeah I mean the great thing about sass
24:52right is the business once you have
24:53those customers and they like your
24:54software they stick with you so it's
24:56like an annuity right it's very it's
24:58very hard margin annuity it's it's it's
25:01a challenge to get those customers and
25:03you have to get there's a lot of
25:04detailed kind of sales and marketing
25:06execution to go reach efficiently I mean
25:08that's kind of the trick in a lot of
25:09those companies how do you efficiently
25:11reach the massage parlor the whatever my
25:14small business payrolls you know people
25:16person these payroll the founders all
25:19complain to me they're like every
25:20venture capital meeting I take they want
25:22to know kak over alpha they want to know
25:24three metrics driven they're like they
25:25want to know our sales power they want
25:27to know like you know and and I was like
25:29your mother's no because honestly that's
25:32what separates the winners and losers in
25:34that world and in that world there's
25:36almost always five credit or three to
25:38two to five credible competitors too
25:40right so it's it's like a cage match you
25:43know it's not like you're some weird you
25:45know okay but they're also not winner
25:47take all market right so the probably
25:51still a power-law distribution in the
25:53outcomes but maybe it's not as severe
25:54maybe it's not maybe the winners not ten
25:57times bigger than number two who's then
25:58ten times bigger than number three which
26:00you can see in consumer but maybe an
26:02enterprise it's the winners three times
26:03bigger than the next biggest one is then
26:05three times bigger the next biggest one
26:06and if it's a business that can support
26:08you know you know billions of dollars of
26:13market value that that could be two or
26:15three companies that could be pretty big
26:18winners for the founders and for the VCS
26:21who back them so let's maybe talk a
26:23little about the changing capital market
26:27so the venture world has changed a lot
26:30there's new ways to fund startups
26:35including you know crowdfunding which
26:38you've been really involved with there's
26:40you know the icy OS and the kind of the
26:41crypto stuff that's that's kind of you
26:43know emerging there's a lot more venture
26:46capital there's a lot more stages of it
26:47they're these mega funds you know I
26:49guess what you know how is it how how
26:51have you seen the industry change over
26:53time and what the first thing I would
26:56say is what you said is that I think
26:58there's more capital available for
27:00founders today than there's ever been
27:03and I think that's a good thing you know
27:06a lot of people in the venture business
27:08or the people who give us the money you
27:11know think there's too much money and
27:14maybe yes but the reality is like what's
27:18good for founders is good for the
27:19venture business I just kind of believe
27:21that it's like a fundamental truth so
27:22there's a lot of money out there the
27:27traditional angel seed early-stage VC
27:31then growth VC market I think the
27:36explosion of capital is probably more in
27:39the later stage you know with the soft
27:41banks and Sequoia going on and raising
27:43however many billions they raised and so
27:45on and so forth and I think that if
27:47anything there might may have been a
27:49slight contraction in seed and Angel and
27:53early-stage money in the past few years
27:55but I think that what's interesting
27:56about crypto so first of all you know
27:59there's a lot of people who who went and
28:01you know used tokens or just a crypto
28:05business plan or business model to go
28:06tap into like a lot of new money that
28:08was showing up in the world of crypto
28:11and and I think that that may you know
28:15certainly in 2017 and even now there's
28:19there's a lot of that money sloshing
28:20around but I think what we're really
28:22seeing and I'm an optimist here and I'm
28:25hopeful about this is that we're seeing
28:27a new capital market being built we're
28:30seeing a new way of raising capital
28:32that's global from the ground up that's
28:35not subject to these I think antiquity
28:40antiquated laws around who can invest in
28:42startups and who can't invest in
28:44startups and just unleashing the the
28:50startup capital markets to be global and
28:54anyone can play is is great it's a huge
28:58innovation right and I understand
29:00there's people out there saying there's
29:02gonna be scams and you know people are
29:04gonna vest and lose all their money and
29:05I get all that and I realized that
29:06that's that's not all good but in
29:09general I think that making it possible
29:13for everybody to invest in in these you
29:16know high growth opportunities who's
29:18good and I think it's good for founders
29:20that that the capital markets for what
29:22they're doing are gonna continue to grow
29:23I mean the fact that today you have to
29:24be literally a millionaire to invest in
29:27startups right to be an accredited er if
29:29you actually participate in IC o----
29:31it's very complex right you need to
29:32download like a mall if they up to like
29:34put in a long hexadecimal address I
29:38don't I mean I I am pretty pretty sure
29:42that almost all people have just been
29:43those things were technical people that
29:44were into crypto I mean the vast
29:46majority were and those are people like
29:48and I just said like anecdotally around
29:49Silicon Valley these were like
29:50programmers who are very sophisticated
29:52who understood exactly what the
29:54technology was who were not maybe not
29:56accredit investors and who felt like now
29:58they finally found a market where like
30:00they understood the product you ain't
30:02right I mean they were customers of the
30:03product they were literally protocols
30:04built for developers and they would use
30:06it and they could participate in this
30:07and the idea that you know a
30:10non-technical wealthy person is able to
30:14invest in that but this programmer who
30:15really deeply understands the protocol
30:17is not just seems strange right very
30:19strange and wrong the other thing is you
30:22know if you were an early user of
30:24Facebook you might have said to yourself
30:26oh my god this thing's gonna be huge
30:28right it was so they so let's say that
30:32was 2003 or 2004 or 2005 whenever that
30:35was Wendy face would go public
30:3711:12 right so it was like seven years
30:41before you could eventually become a
30:43shareholder on Facebook but if you're an
30:44early user of Bitcoin you had Bitcoin
30:47day one right so like what's great about
30:49crypto is that I think it allows the
30:53to not only be users but also
30:56participate financially if they want to
30:58they want to hold on to their Bitcoin
30:59and and go along for the ride they can
31:02do that and that's why I think the this
31:04token business model is so exciting is
31:06that in a way it kind of takes the world
31:09of investing and the world of using and
31:14combines them and like there was this I
31:17read this blog post last week about like
31:19there's two parts of crypto there's the
31:20money part of crypto and there's the
31:22utility part of crypto money like the
31:26money people are like Bitcoin
31:27maximalists and they're really focused
31:29on hard money in the and the in the tech
31:32people are a theory and maximalists in
31:34there they're focused on you know damn
31:36platforms and smart contracts and all
31:37that I don't buy that at all I that that
31:40to me is I mean not I'm not arguing that
31:42that's what the world is today I think
31:44that I think that I think is Eric
31:46Torborg who wrote it and I thought it
31:47was very insightful about where we are
31:49encrypted right now but I reject that
31:51idea and I think what's powerful about
31:53crypto is that they're the same thing
31:55that using and investing are the same
31:58thing that they and you don't have to be
32:01a user to be an investor and you don't
32:03have to be an investor to be a user but
32:07if you want to be you can be both and
32:08it's just as easy to be like it's just
32:11an easy to be both right and and that I
32:14think it's just not right particularly
32:17for a lot of these businesses where the
32:21user is the product right Facebook users
32:24made Facebook Twitter users made Twitter
32:26you know YouTube users made YouTube
32:28right it's just not right that the
32:30people who make the product have no
32:33participation innovation and beyond that
32:36right to me to me one of the great
32:37tragedies in the history is the
32:39technology industry is that what happens
32:42and there's a sort of life cycle of
32:43every network right and I use a network
32:45in a very broad sense I include I think
32:47Windows as a network right so it's a
32:48network between developers and racers
32:50right and there's a life cycle right and
32:52they start off and and at the beginning
32:54there's sort of this you know the the
32:55network the platform wants to attract
32:57everybody and they play very well right
32:59and so they you know they provide tools
33:01for this third-party software developers
33:03face book early on says hey media
33:05work with us you know they're solicitous
33:07and then over time you know that you hit
33:09the kind of growth peak and everyone
33:10it's a party and everyone's having a
33:11good time and like you know if you're
33:13growing 100 percent you every year you
33:15know you don't worry too much about
33:16stuff and then eventually at the top of
33:18the s-curve comes right and then it
33:19becomes that's when things get ugly and
33:20that's when and it's not and I don't
33:22blame any of the management of these
33:24companies or the boards I think it's
33:25just the logic of the business model the
33:27logic of the business model is sort of
33:29it forces them at that point when things
33:31start to slow it's like Google like
33:33Google search like if you look at mobile
33:35like it's hard now you get all sponsored
33:38they just keep adding more sponsored
33:39links you have Yelp going up in front of
33:41Congress and do it you know like when
33:42it's the growth period
33:43hey great we'll have two one one little
33:45ad at the top and like well you know the
33:47pies growing no one's fighting over a
33:49piece of the pie when the pie stops
33:51growing people start fighting over the
33:53piece and so and then what happens is
33:54these networks have these kind of
33:56internal battles right and and those are
33:58the most vicious but like that's the
33:59funny thing about tech I think that like
34:00you bas I detect them so traditionally
34:02in economics people think of substitutes
34:04as the competitors right so if a
34:05hamburger in the hive of slice use the
34:07hamburger the hot dog at the competitors
34:08whereas in tech actually the hot dog in
34:10the hot dog bun are the ones that have
34:11the most vicious fights maybe Microsoft
34:13Netscape you know Facebook Zynga like
34:16Twitter and the Twitter apps or whatever
34:17right because like with Twitter it just
34:19feels kind of tragic to me that you had
34:21this giant developer ecosystem that was
34:23trying to make the protocol proliferate
34:25and they could have worked together in
34:28concert and it could have been a much
34:30bigger and more impactful platform but
34:33the logic of the business model the ad
34:35based business model said we need to
34:37control the experience we need to
34:38control where the ads appear we need to
34:40like etc etc again not placing blame on
34:43anybody it's the logic of that model
34:46right look I mean you know it did live
34:47through that period and I was on the
34:49board of the company during that time
34:50and I very much wanted to see an open
34:54platform I mean if you read the blog
34:56posts that I wrote when we invested in
34:58Twitter it's still on us be calm I wrote
35:01about the API in the open ecosystem and
35:03all the souther was getting built on top
35:04of Twitter that's what I wanted Twitter
35:06to be but we had an advertising
35:08attention based business model and the
35:10truth of the matter was there were other
35:12people who were out there running around
35:14buying up third-party Twitter clients
35:17and inside Twitter we
35:19saw that and we're like we keep we can't
35:21have that right we can't let somebody go
35:25get half of our user base by acquiring
35:28all these third-party clients and then
35:30taking them on to a new new network and
35:32then we've just lost half of our users
35:34right particularly when we have a
35:36tension based business model right if if
35:39Bitcoin and tokens had existed in 2005
35:43instead of 2009 I think it's very
35:46possible that Twitter could have adopted
35:48a token based business model left the
35:50protocol open Twitter could have been
35:52the protocol and the third-party clients
35:53could have been the clients on top of
35:55the protocol and it could have worked
35:56beautifully and like part of me just
35:59wishes that we could have done that and
36:02then we could have seen how powerful
36:04this new business model is we're gonna
36:06see it eventually we're gonna see it
36:08someone's gonna do it we're gonna be
36:11instead of the fighting right you'll
36:13have this beautiful alignment between
36:16the core protocol all of the third-party
36:18developers all of the users and by the
36:20way the other thing you didn't mention
36:21when you mentioned the Bitcoin users not
36:22only do those users own Bitcoin a
36:24participate in it they also probably by
36:26the way disproportionately have twitter
36:27followers reddit karma right hacker news
36:30cred whatever that's called right now
36:32Google juice right and they're out there
36:33like talking about it and marketing it
36:35and so you have this army of users
36:39miners developers core protocol
36:41developers all fully aligned right
36:44that's and all and by the way and
36:46control and probably very powerful
36:48relatively speaking on the most
36:50important marketing medium of the you
36:53know the internet and and it's just a
36:55very powerful combination I think it's
36:57by the way I think that's a wonderful
36:59thing I think that's very scary to a lot
37:02of the people whose jobs it is to
37:04regulate and and protect the capital
37:08markets because they're looking at that
37:09and they're saying there's all these
37:11people who own a lot of this thing and
37:13they're out there promoting the out
37:15of it right the truth of the matter is
37:17though it's moseys people are not
37:19pumping and dumping the truth of the
37:20matter is mostly people are true
37:22believers right who have held all the
37:25way through once my money gets into the
37:28crypto ecosystem it's gonna stay in the
37:30crypto ecosystem it might you know more
37:32definitely gonna be playing around and
37:34all these networks and and you know
37:37using them and staking and doing all
37:40this incredibly cool that you can
37:42do but that wealth that I took out of
37:45Fiat and put into crypto back in 11 12
37:4913 14 it's not going back that way
37:51I need to try this out I have this
37:52theory think of this theory I have this
37:54theory that we are in the middle of a
37:55transition period where the digital
38:00world is becoming more more important to
38:02the point but we're in a transition
38:04period in the sense that we still it's
38:06even in our we still we still think of
38:07the visit the the offline world is
38:10primary mm-hm and the and and you see
38:12this by the way and all the critiques of
38:14Bitcoin for example Oh like in the end a
38:16lot of like the you know traditional
38:17economist critiquing it boils down to oh
38:19it's this it's fake money it's its
38:21digital therefore it's fake right and
38:23and like for example like to think that
38:25gold which you know has whatever beasts
38:27out of dental and speaker wires and it
38:28has no real utility like to think that
38:30that has some kind of like ontological
38:32like higher status than a digital good
38:34is I think evidence of this sort of
38:37offline bias right and like and I think
38:40you hear it I by the way I noticed is
38:42whenever people use language eSports
38:43right notice ecommerce like when you you
38:45have to preface the online one is the
38:47one with the modifier right right right
38:49and so at some point by the way you
38:50these things will flip and it'll be like
38:52that's commerce and then there's awful
38:53in commerce see that the predecessors to
38:55Bitcoin were called emoney yeah whenever
39:00you have a modifier on the thing you
39:02know that people think it's subordinate
39:03right right but eventually it'll flip
39:05and it'll be like Amazon is Commerce and
39:07Walmart is oh yeah it's like you know
39:08meatspace or offline Commerce or IRL
39:10Commerce or whatever they're gonna call
39:11it so I think we're in this transition
39:13period and it's funny too because like
39:14you know fortnight made 300 million
39:16dollars last month on dance moves right
39:18emotes right alright and so digital
39:21goods have become a massive industry for
39:23example in video games and and and and
39:26digital resources domain names you know
39:28I've always bought I've been a long time
39:30collector of domain names I'm like let
39:32me - it's a little piece of the internet
39:33like of course it's gonna be valuable
39:34and I've always wanted them and I
39:35hold on to them and that's a multi only
39:38those either it's only the intern you
39:44own a piece of the Internet
39:45it's like owning it it's like owning
39:47real estate on around Central Park or in
39:49a way this is like religion right like
39:51it's like you know I would never ever
39:54I might swap a domain like if you said
39:56you know hey I've got you know ABCD and
39:58and I said well I got you know I we
40:00might swap well but I've never never
40:01sold for dollars so I think that we're
40:03in this transition period where we're
40:05still kind of like anchored on this sort
40:06of thing of like well it's not real
40:08right but it's gonna be obvious 10 to 20
40:11years from now especially as like the
40:12newer generation kind of grows up and
40:13just of course like of course an e mode
40:15is worth more than a you know offline
40:17equivalent or whatever and that it's
40:20going to be an these words are gonna
40:21send the language is gonna change with
40:22it and just the whole kind of way of
40:23thinking about it and there's not gonna
40:25be this weird thing like oh it's digital
40:26it's not as alright you just I'm saying
40:29though like and I think like eSports is
40:30great like I don't think I think about
40:32it's like a lot of like I remember a lot
40:34of times in the history of tech like
40:35mobile 2011 or 12 it felt like mobile
40:38was definitely growing but I don't think
40:40at least for me until like maybe 2012 I
40:42didn't realize it it actually replaced
40:44desktop there was a moment at which she
40:45was sort of like wait a second this
40:46isn't just like a big thing this is this
40:48is the thing right you know what I mean
40:49and and you realize now in retrospect
40:52that we thought we were in kind of this
40:53growth period we're actually in this
40:55hockey stick right right and I think
40:57that sort of I believe one of my
40:58theories is wearing this like so to take
40:59eSports as an example I think we're in
41:01this hockey stick right now with these
41:02sports like video games it's just gonna
41:04be obvious that like it's gonna to see
41:07me I mean I think it's always great that
41:09people play physical sports I'm not anti
41:10but you know it'll be like horseback
41:11riding vinyl records like you know a
41:14whole bunch of other kind of I think I
41:16think this is where what geeks call NF
41:18T's non fungible tokens you called I
41:22think you just calm digital goods crypto
41:23good good I think the innovation here is
41:27that these digital assets can be scarce
41:32can be one-of-a-kind
41:34you know the reality is like we've never
41:36had the ability to make a digital good
41:41non replicable right and that's I think
41:44what you know has held back a lot of the
41:47business models around did
41:49goods it's just like if you had an mp3
41:51you could give it to a million people if
41:53you had an you know an MPEG you could
41:56give it to a million people so I was
41:59explaining this to somebody last week
42:01who's trying to like figure out you know
42:04crypto and I said you know think about
42:07all of the digital goods that you earn
42:09in a video game right and you spend you
42:13know you're obsessed about this video
42:14game for like six months and you collect
42:15all these incredible video but they're
42:17stuck in the game yeah like imagine if
42:20you could take him out of the game and
42:21you could put them in your wallet or
42:22think about just like a bank account
42:23right and then another game comes along
42:25and you could literally take them to
42:27another game and this person who I was
42:29talking to who was a skeptic like a
42:32 skeptic like you wouldn't
42:33believe he's like holy my 12 year
42:36old would just be all over that like
42:39that's that's like you have just given
42:42my 12 year old his like Nirvana I said
42:45but that's what we're doing here like
42:47that is that's where we're going I think
42:49I think games will be the first to adopt
42:51this stuff because they they just tend
42:53to be very kind of fast cycle time
42:55experimental no no it's not just that
42:57it's also who's playing them you mean
43:00the kids the kids that are far more open
43:02to new to them like tell a kid to
43:05download like an aetherium wallet that
43:07has NFT capability and and move their
43:09games out a fortnight into their
43:10coinbase wallet or like that's not gonna
43:13get in the way but I think the other
43:15thing with excites me is I feel like
43:17this should be a wonderful time in
43:21history for creative people with you
43:23know 4 billion smartphones and the
43:25ability to just sit down and write
43:26something and create a piece of music
43:28and from a business model perspective it
43:30hasn't been and - one of the things
43:32that's really exciting to me about NF
43:33T's is if you let Sigma ik as an example
43:35right so mostly on like selling the the
43:39song itself has become a not great
43:41business model and so a lot of musicians
43:43have moved to big good where the
43:44scarcity is right and the scarcity is
43:46offline and so it's shows and
43:48merchandising and so one of the really
43:50exciting things to me about NF T's is
43:51the idea that you can reintroduce
43:52digital scarcity and have whatever
43:54exclusive album art exclusive whatever
43:56maybe this is to me it seems like a very
43:57promising new business model not just
43:59for games but for writers for
44:01musicians for you know whatever you film
44:06makers video makers it reintroducing
44:10scarcity allowing kind of business model
44:12innovation well the cold the cool thing
44:15is it it it doesn't have to be that
44:20there's only one of them it could be
44:22this a million of them or in the case of
44:23Bitcoin 21 million we still haven't mind
44:26all the Bitcoin and we're nine years
44:30into it now right so like imagine if you
44:33made a song I just came up with I think
44:38badger if you made a song and there was
44:4021 million listens to it and you had to
44:43mine the listens right like but it was
44:46gonna take maybe five or ten years to
44:48mind all those listens you know actually
44:50you get 21 million listens pretty
44:51quickly on the most popular song but
44:54like imagine if there was some mechanism
44:56of releasing a piece of art or a piece
44:58of music that felt more like mining
45:00Bitcoin than it did you could never do
45:02scarcity free there was no way to ever
45:04do mean they tried with DRM and things
45:06like the point I'm trying to make is
45:08like I don't think necessarily for the
45:10artists the move is super tight scarcity
45:12I think the move might be pretty loose
45:14scarcity but still some scarcity and the
45:17other thing that's cool that's haven't
45:18Bitcoin is the value has risen over time
45:21I know that's come down recently but
45:22it's mostly risen over time as we've
45:24started to mine more and more of it
45:26right so we've never seen well you have
45:29seen that a little bit in art like
45:31certainly physical aren't you that's
45:32what you do see but you know I don't I
45:36don't have a crystal ball view of how
45:38this is all gonna go down but I
45:40definitely think that the move is not
45:41like one of the things I've learned
45:42really like almost like painfully was
45:47that when when we first started
45:48investing in the Internet in 94 95 96
45:50what we were doing was dumb we were just
45:53basically investing in things that had
45:56existed in the offline world they were
45:58getting moved onto the internet like
46:00okay so let's let's invest in a online
46:02newspaper let's invest in an online
46:04store let's invest you know like but
46:07that's actually not the move the move is
46:09you got to find the native thing that
46:10that needs to happen now to
46:12funny every form of media you go back
46:14and look at the early movies and they
46:15were plays and they were trying to film
46:17to play and then later on they're like
46:18oh we can do a close-up we can do an
46:20establishing shot we can do this we can
46:21do that and they just have developing
46:22new grammar and then there's sort of the
46:23there's the movie native movies or
46:26something right it's I think it's a very
46:28bright with digital goods with music
46:31with film with art with other like I
46:33think it will be some it's not it's not
46:35to make I don't think it's to make like
46:37a limited edition piece of your art like
46:40that there's gonna be 10 of these I
46:41think it's something that's more like
46:43the way Bitcoin has happened where it
46:45gets mined over time released by
46:47something you never have done before as
46:49opposed to a direct kind of whatever
46:52just like porting over right some
46:54concept from the non crypto that's why I
46:56don't love when when when entrepreneurs
46:58founders come to us and they're like
47:00we're gonna take mortgage-backed
47:01securities and put them on the
47:03blockchain or we're gonna take like
47:06they're they're really interested in
47:08taking things that exist in the physical
47:10world or the existing financial world
47:12and putting them on a on a distributed
47:14ledger and I mean I think that that's
47:16like think I think there is some
47:18incremental value to doing that but what
47:20I'm much more excited about is people
47:23creating brand new things de novo from
47:26scratch on these crypto networks that
47:30never existed off the crypto networks
47:32couldn't have existed off the crypto
47:34networks and always will live on the
47:35crypto networks like to me that just
47:37seems like a 10x or 100x better idea
47:39yeah like like autonomous organizations
47:43right this concept which is now it kind
47:46of fell a little bit of disrepute
47:47because of this thing called the Dow
47:48which was kind of mismanagement it's
47:51unfortunate that they name themselves I
47:55mean to me it still blows my mind that
47:57you just look at any of these
47:58interesting solidity contracts and and
48:01it's just it's code running on the
48:03internet no one can you know once the
48:04developers have shifted out and taken
48:06off all of the like you know the you
48:09know the controlling kind of code it's
48:12just it's just literally code that
48:14exists up its autonomous code and it's
48:17got a sort of it's it's own little
48:19organization right and these things will
48:21get more and more sophisticated and this
48:23is something that can never exist
48:24right like new Mirage one that you get
48:26involved in for example think that new
48:28mirai is a hedge fund powered by a
48:31crowdsource network of data scientists
48:33and it is but i actually think if you
48:35really try to understand what Richards
48:37doing I think he's playing around with
48:39staking it's like staking is a really
48:43I mean it's existed forever I mean if
48:46you if you read a Talib's new book it's
48:50really all about skin in the game about
48:51staking but I think that we're gonna see
48:54a lot of really innovative things being
48:57done with staking because I think crypto
48:59tokens make staking super easy to do and
49:02there are like I think Richards idea is
49:05that if I can get data scientists to
49:07stake their models to put skin in the
49:10game against their models I'm gonna get
49:12much better models than if they just
49:13throw them up against the wall so I just
49:16think we're gonna see a lot of
49:18innovation around staking around
49:20governance you know on chain governance
49:23is that gonna work I don't know I think
49:25I like part of me says it'll never work
49:28and part of me is like I hope it does
49:29work obviously we're both excited about
49:31crypto how long and there's all these
49:34great ideas floating around but it's
49:35early you know what how long you think
49:38it'll take to play out to sort of I mean
49:41it'll obviously hopefully take many
49:42decades but like when will we start to
49:44see meaningful applications used by
49:47people beyond the kind of crypto into
49:49this I think that we got a fix
49:53it's the broadband issue we got to
49:55figure out how to get crypto networks
49:59that are truly secure and decentralized
50:02that can handle much higher transaction
50:07processing speeds than what we have
50:08today it's you could I think it's to me
50:11it's a it's think if the crypto network
50:13has a computer right and the computer
50:15has different design criteria it's very
50:16different than trician computers and
50:17network right but but in the consensus
50:20mechanism etcetera makes this
50:21abstraction that's a computer on top and
50:22you need trust you need developer
50:24experience you need scalability and yeah
50:27it's like we're internet pretty Bob and
50:28we're mobile phone free iPhone exactly
50:32remember like remember winter the sign
50:34people were building like what were they
50:36called where they call that was it was a
50:40map or something there was like some
50:41yeah some standard for building
50:43applications on I had this poor friend
50:45who was like into mobile from like the
50:4790s and I think he like gave up in 2006
50:50it's never good that's what we are we
50:53have not had our iPhone moment encrypted
50:54and and attached to the iPhone moment
50:57and that's what I'm waiting for and you
50:59know it doesn't have to be totally
51:00decentralized as this whole narrative
51:02around like you know where we're on the
51:04decentralized curve is enough I just
51:06think like decentralized means that
51:10nobody controls the network and that's
51:12kind of to be fundamental like to me
51:14means trust and then and that it goes
51:16along with nobody controlled like this
51:17you trust you trust the network I trust
51:19that if I have this entity I really have
51:21it right and no one can take it away no
51:23single person can take it away no bad
51:25system engineer you can take it away
51:26what's the quote like power corrupts
51:28absolute power absolutely crops or
51:30whatever it is but like look you just
51:32said like when Facebook realizes that
51:35they've got the keys to the castle
51:36you're gonna start to extract rinse like
51:38it's just it's just it's what happens so
51:40that's why decentralization is so
51:41important and so I think you got a hint
51:43we got a have a crypto network or two or
51:46three or four ten who knows that is
51:49truly decentralized truly secure and can
51:53process transactions at the speeds at
51:55least of like an ATM network or
51:58something you know we don't have that
52:00yeah yeah so that we need that and then
52:02and then and then it happens over so
52:05whenever that happens and then hopefully
52:06we have the five to ten year kind of
52:09immediate explosion of apps the way we
52:11did with the internet and mobile and
52:13then and then a long tail of kind of
52:15further innovation definitely that's
52:17what I that's what I see and that's why
52:20largely we're not investing in a lot of
52:23I mean we are playing around with NF T's
52:25and games for all the reasons you you
52:27raise I just think that's the first
52:28place that we might see it and by the
52:32way if you go back and look at the
52:36history of infrastructure
52:38sometimes it's the apps that demand the
52:43infrastructure and then the
52:44infrastructure gets there because
52:45the apps demanded so games in a way
52:48games might make it such that we get the
52:52the crypto Network we need right like
52:53like it's a good historical example were
52:56the app demanded I think actually by the
52:57way games have driven for example games
52:59of driven GPUs so like just like the
53:01that market is one where the the gamers
53:04have been endlessly hungry for more
53:06polygons and and that created this kind
53:08of you know Nvidia and this whole
53:09industry around it which then had these
53:11interesting you know then of course spun
53:12out the deep learning movement right
53:15well I mean it may be a good example
53:17like a lot of interesting core
53:19infrastructure came out of Netscape
53:21right why didn't escape have to build it
53:22because didn't exist cookies
53:25but if you go all the way back to like
53:27we where we started I think we are maybe
53:31in the most interesting time I've ever
53:35seen in my 30-year career but but it's
53:42not at the surface right it's like under
53:46the water and and you're not getting
53:49rewarded very much as an investor for
53:54being you know super bullish what last
53:58year was great like everybody want to
54:00own crypto but I think that was kind of
54:01like a wave and it's certainly come and
54:03go on I don't think you're getting word
54:05a lot for that and you are getting
54:07reward a lot more for you know the more
54:10operational execution oriented stuff
54:13like Enterprise SAS and things like that
54:14but I think what's what's super
54:17interesting is the stuff that's that's
54:18going to start bubbling up and and
54:20that's where my head's at awesome
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