00:00hi everyone this is sonal welcome to the
00:02a 6nz podcast i'm here today with tim
00:04schafer of Double Fine productions tim
00:06is the CEO and co-founder of Double Fine
00:08which just put out broken age which was
00:11a massively crowdfunded game on
00:13Kickstarter massively odd funded early
00:15good it wasn't like the first actually
00:16the first million dollar game or
00:17something like that it was like one of
00:19the things that we had records in we had
00:21like the most numbers backers backers it
00:24was like fastest two bucks and it was
00:26like most exciting thing that happened
00:29as far as I'm concerned well and the way
00:31I know you is as the inventor of grim
00:34aging myself but that's what I know
00:36about you know in space it's really
00:37recent we just remastered it okay and
00:39I'm here with Justin who's the chief
00:41operating officer of the CEO of double
00:44fine and I'm here with Herman Niroula
00:46the CEO of improbable that full
00:48disclosure were investors in hi Herman
00:49hello we thought it'd be great to do a
00:51podcast on trends in gaming so we just
00:54want to let you guys talk and let's
00:56start off by just talking about the
00:58funding landscape because I think that's
00:59one of the first things that comes to
01:01mind yeah it's exciting I mean I people
01:04often asked like what are you excited
01:05about in games and like what technology
01:07like there's any of these new devices
01:08and there are a lot of you know new
01:10things going on VR and stuff lately I've
01:14been most excited by the how things have
01:15changed as far as business goes which
01:17sounds weird cuz I've always been on the
01:18creative side of things but you know
01:20what happened with us in crowdfunding
01:21has allowed us to have just so much more
01:24creative control and a more natural
01:26relationship with with people who we
01:28make games for because they're they're
01:30funding our games and we're directly in
01:32contact with them they really feel like
01:33they're participating and making the
01:35game because they help fund it and
01:37they're their big champions of the game
01:39and they get to see you know behind the
01:40curtain a little bit so it's really
01:42changed compared to the old days where
01:44we would have to deal with a large like
01:46gatekeeper a big large company who was
01:48like just trying to avoid risk and
01:50trying to you know change our games
01:52creatively you know we're much more in
01:54control of that so I guess that's the
01:55thing going on in games it's strange
01:57that the funding kind of revolution
01:59that's been going on has been having a
02:00huge impact on creativity I think it had
02:02a huge impact on technology side as well
02:04you know for us for example working with
02:06game developers who are increasingly
02:07interested in working with independent
02:08game developers because they have such
02:10huge followings distinct from large
02:13and they have an ability I mean like
02:14like Teen Hall for example have an
02:16ability to command the following and
02:18monetize that following in a way that
02:20previously they would have have to have
02:21gone through a big publisher to do I
02:23mean that's profound
02:24and I think technological innovation
02:26that makes games easier to build or
02:28quicker to build or widens the scope of
02:30what small teams can do may be quite
02:32important in the near future yeah and I
02:34see a historical precedent actually
02:36being set here if you actually look at
02:38what happens about 40 years ago in films
02:41you'll actually see film financing came
02:43about then and the creators were freed
02:45from a studio framework and it's really
02:47interesting to see what's actually
02:48happening right now with crowdfunding
02:50and other funding sources and games
02:51because it's creating those same
02:53dynamics that you know led to basically
02:55a creative explosion and how is it
02:57different from the music industry
02:58because a lot of people have a lot of
02:59like PTSD from the music industry like
03:01they come they come out they start you
03:02have to have your it almost seems like
03:04as preconditions you have to have your
03:05own following to really do indie game
03:06successfully like is that true can
03:08people really become successful if they
03:09don't really have they're following a
03:13really great game can grab everyone's
03:15attention that you know like you or
03:17sometimes just a shot of a game like
03:18hyper light drifter or something I've
03:19never seen before I didn't know the team
03:21never heard of you guys just like what
03:22is that I want to see that on the back
03:24pad and and then you know my case you
03:26know having many years of experience and
03:27then you know years to like generate
03:29that kind of following he definitely
03:30helped have a really big get
03:32kick-started but not everyone needs to
03:33you know have 3.3 million right off the
03:36bat in their first game right so I think
03:38it's it's a great natural
03:39self-correcting method to actually build
03:41that kind of following and yet I do
03:43think that is a little bit of a myth
03:45that like with crowdfunding a lot of
03:46people think that if you go there you
03:49know with the you know the current
03:50platforms that are in place that organic
03:52discovery is fairly large and we've
03:55actually found that to be quite to the
03:57contrary and you do need to come with
03:59your community a lot of the platforms
04:00exist today are about organizing your
04:02community around a single funding events
04:05the other thing is it's interesting to
04:07note if you were actually looking at the
04:08landscape you know the barriers to entry
04:11I've like just come down which is great
04:13but there's actually more access to more
04:15people than ever before and so there's
04:17like a new barrier that has that has
04:18come about which is discovery and it's
04:21very hard when you're an indie and
04:23you're very talented
04:24to get discovered these days it almost
04:26a new model for the publisher like
04:28following on from what you were saying I
04:29mean where the real role is around
04:31discovery it's around eating community
04:33interaction it's around magnifying what
04:35independents like yourself are already
04:37doing for new talent as opposed to being
04:39this kind of controlling influence that
04:41sort of swallow up I mean I agree like
04:43if you go back to that 40 years ago that
04:45actually was right around the time when
04:48you had trip Hawkins and he went out and
04:50he found and this actually ties in the
04:52music industry like he got the contracts
04:54in the music industry and used the same
04:56practices which have basically have been
04:58business practices established the last
05:0040 years in the game industry that was
05:02the same time by the way that the film
05:04financing thesis was happening and so
05:05you kind of saw the creatives the game
05:08industry potentially being more
05:09restricted and those restrictions are
05:11falling away now where the film industry
05:14you've seen you know the term auteur
05:16came from that time frame and a lot of
05:19the most dominant franchises and the
05:21creatives being in control now of the
05:23studio framework really has come about
05:25from that time so walk us down a little
05:27bit more to why this really matters for
05:29people who aren't inside the gaming
05:30industry like what does it mean when you
05:32give power back to the creators
05:33definitely something you should answer I
05:35mean I think it leads to the best work
05:39and I think at the health of the
05:40industry when you look at something like
05:42Sundance Film Festival and it's not like
05:44Sundance appeared and crushed all the
05:47studios and destroyed Hollywood forever
05:49it actually just enriched the whole
05:52ecosystem so you know you had a new a
05:54new place to discover up-and-coming
05:57artists or people returning artists but
05:59different kinds of movies were shown
06:00there and those people would call to
06:02work and all you wouldn't kind of just
06:03add new ideas to it in the same way that
06:05indie game market I think you know might
06:07make smaller games the triple-a
06:09developers but they're kind of going out
06:11in the direction of new new genres and
06:13new new ideas like there was no you know
06:16I don't think a triple-a studio would
06:17have created minecraft for example you
06:19know I don't think that followed any
06:20sort of rules that existed before it you
06:22know but I think when people have the
06:24ability to to kind of make these smaller
06:26personal more risky projects just it
06:29opens up it continues to grow the
06:33creativity I think always leads and then
06:34the players follow and then people with
06:39look everyone's going over there and
06:41wants to help that grow even bigger yeah
06:44I mean I think there's almost like a
06:45kind of Cambrian explosion of new
06:48possibilities and ideas I mean the one
06:50thing as a gamer is a big fan of some of
06:52your games as well that I've really you
06:54know hate it in the last few years has
06:56been the sameness and lack of risk
06:59around so many of the higher budget
07:01productions that are out there I mean
07:02still deeply entertaining and fun but
07:04the interesting thing about this
07:05industry is you don't really grow out of
07:06it you know the average age is what like
07:0836,000 gamers so these are the same
07:11eyeballs and you know there's something
07:12weird happening here whether they want
07:14more they want more variety so I think
07:15there's quite a voracious appetite out
07:17there for the new plethora of perhaps
07:20less risky independent projects or more
07:22risky creatively less risky financially
07:23now I'm curious also on your thoughts
07:27Tim on whether you feel that the mobile
07:29user base the kind of new generation
07:31gamers who maybe were never part of the
07:33last 20 years of gaming history are they
07:35going to be fundamentally different in
07:37what they want from the current like
07:39more insular gaming community or are
07:42they gonna be the same I mean I hope so
07:44I hope they're different in that I think
07:46a lot of people had an idea that gamers
07:48mean a certain it means a certain thing
07:50just because it's been that way for a
07:52long time and I think the new people
07:53who've been brought in the market are
07:55showing something that it kind of
07:56highlights the difference to me between
07:57games and movies when you go to a
07:59multiplex site there's a movie for
08:01everybody there's a girl there's like a
08:02movie your parents will go see the kids
08:04we're gonna see this movie the teenagers
08:05we go see and there's there's there's
08:08comedies and dramas and there's still
08:10pretty mainstream right it's not like
08:11you don't think go to an art house to
08:12see that sort of variety but in games
08:15the in mainstream games you still have
08:17for the majority sense like summer
08:19action blockbusters they're mostly all
08:21in that genre if you know can be and I
08:23think any games kind of you know
08:25stretched out of that for sure but just
08:27the the idea that that that people you
08:30know the idea of a comedy that's not a
08:32big common thing you see in games like a
08:33comedy game exactly and you know
08:35definitely not a romance it's not a very
08:37common thing they exist but they're not
08:38that common I think that that shows that
08:40when new people come in through you know
08:42casual gaming or mobile gaming they
08:45don't have those same assumptions that
08:46everybody wants to play a certain type
08:48of game and and they
08:49I think it's kind of rough sometimes for
08:51the people who are in that existing
08:52community to feel it changing and
08:54feeling like new people are joining the
08:55club I think it you know makes them kind
08:57of angry sometimes but I think in
08:58general it'll it'll just keep growing
09:01and that's healthy for everybody could
09:02completely and I agree I also think it's
09:04kind of a gateway drug I think that you
09:06know people playing clash of clans today
09:08even crash of clans is more
09:09sophisticated than mobile experiences
09:11that came before I mean I remember snake
09:12I don't know if anyone else does back in
09:14the day right now you know when they
09:15want more what do they do and we had a
09:17very interesting little anecdotal story
09:19a lot of people had previously played
09:20mobile games and one of the requirements
09:22was to download the game from steam in
09:24order to interact with it and these
09:25weren't like hardcore gamers just the
09:27click process in steam it was utterly
09:29alien to them I mean these people that
09:30have used the iPhone store right so they
09:32were really used to a very slick
09:33experience instantly like thrown by
09:35trying to interact with this game it was
09:36like an alien world to them you know
09:38like people who used to Amazon or iTunes
09:39so there's a sort of adolescence to some
09:42of the non creative parts of the
09:43industry which needs to evolve if those
09:45people have to be brought into the fold
09:46what are some of the other changes we
09:48say as mobile that are changing loot
09:50gaming landscape for you guys as
09:51creators and producers of games I think
09:54like that diversity of people trying new
09:56things I think is changing a lot of
09:57people realizing that it's okay to have
09:59narrative in games again I think for
10:01I first start playing it was like text
10:03adventures I love playing these games
10:05that would tell you you're in the middle
10:06of a field there's a white house to the
10:08you know these Texas man you type in go
10:09north and you made adventure games all
10:13through the 90s that were all about like
10:14you know Pirates and bikers and
10:15tentacles and all sorts of stories and
10:18and I think then within the gaming
10:20community they were as a feeling of like
10:22we should do these you know non-scripted
10:24things they're just your systemic based
10:26where you make your own story by you
10:28know you know finding these emergent
10:30type behaviors and kind of scripted
10:32stories were kind of had a kind of a bad
10:34rap for a while and I think things like
10:37The Last of Us and home alone and games
10:40have come out where story is so strong
10:42and people are realizing that 'men have
10:45both you can have both emergent things
10:47happening in games you can have games
10:48across the whole spectrum of really
10:50scripted story based things to really
10:51just emergent type minecraft things and
10:54now they're doing a story based version
10:55of Minecraft so it's like everywhere
10:56between it's just basically a safe I
10:58think it's safe to explore the whole
10:59spectrum now which i think is a
11:01positive stem I mean our passion like
11:03full disclosure is in building massive
11:05emergent online experiences right and
11:07it's funny that you mentioned that you
11:08know it's okay to tell stories again I
11:10think going even further I think people
11:12who play online games in those
11:13communities they want to tell stories
11:15and be part of stories you know there
11:17can be a very same equality to online
11:19experiences you know you play something
11:20like Grim Fandango and you like you go
11:22on an emotional journey right you don't
11:24with a game where all the content is
11:26static so how to bring the teeming mass
11:29of online gamers to the same kind of
11:31emotional experiences that they get from
11:33really good single-player experience
11:34this is a really hard challenge too and
11:37I think they'll focus on VR and graphics
11:38I know how you feel about this but I
11:39think that I think that graphics are not
11:42the be-all and end-all of gaming
11:43experience I think there's more
11:44fundamental components to engagement
11:45that I wish people would explore more
11:47which aren't as flashy as just
11:49increasing pixel density and I mean it's
11:51it's why I like people like them and
11:52others are so enduring in their ability
11:54to produce great games there must be
11:55something fundamental that crosses
11:56medium that crosses audience which you
11:59know needs to be explored yeah and I
12:00think it was what Tim was talking about
12:01too is the the story side of things and
12:03one thing I think it's interesting is
12:05gonna happen here is you have you know
12:07we talked about mobile but VR which I'm
12:08just alluding to and what that does to
12:11the gaming landscape which I'm really
12:13excited about because a lot of the
12:14saving things that actually worked in
12:16the same techniques and with Hollywood
12:18films and these big blockbuster games
12:20like they just don't translate over to
12:23the VR experience which you know I think
12:25potentially you'll see a spotlight on
12:27things like narrative and exploration
12:30which do translate to that medium and I
12:32think it's something interesting here
12:34you know what Tim's take on it is by I
12:36think it's interesting because the I
12:38guess beyond story and gameplay all
12:41these things to me are part of this
12:43toolkit to to do one thing which is the
12:45thing I like to do most in games which
12:46is just pull someone into a world just
12:48Pro something till they forget they're
12:49sitting on the couch or wherever they
12:50are they're just in this world the
12:52characters feel real to them the
12:54problems the world become their problems
12:55and the don't you know the be the other
12:57world they just they feel like they're
12:58just transported into it they never want
12:59to leave I mean they you know want them
13:01to leave and go have dinner and stuff
13:02like that but they miss it you know I
13:04feeling when you're playing a really
13:05great game and you're at school or work
13:06and you're I can't wait to go back to
13:08that world it's so fun because I feel
13:09like um there's something there is
13:11something really positive about just
13:12going to a fantasy world
13:14getting lost in that it's like a mental
13:15transformation and I think you know VR
13:20just has a lot of potential obviously
13:22for making you feel like you're in
13:23another place but you were physically in
13:25another place so you're really really
13:26there's a lot of potential for that for
13:29sure it's kind of interesting too
13:30because you're talking about like the
13:31gateway drug right yeah well I mean is
13:33VR like the farthest you can get away
13:35from the gateway drug because you're
13:36you're strapping something on your head
13:37that's that's really really interesting
13:39I completely agree I think deepening the
13:41experience in other ways is important
13:43but I think that the fundamental
13:45threshold is those things were all
13:48periphery they're very important but the
13:49fundamental threshold is am I engaged
13:51with what I'm interacting with am i
13:53emotionally personally mentally engaged
13:54and that boils down to in my views it's
13:57just my opinion on what that content is
13:59and what the fundamentals of that
14:00experience are and I think when people
14:02try and paper that over with better
14:04graphics or with something superficially
14:06more immersive they can't they can't fix
14:08that flaw like and that I think to
14:10really explore what will work in your
14:11mediums requires exactly what you guys
14:12are talking about way more
14:13experimentation which isn't done enabled
14:15by better funding models and more people
14:17trying new things you know and you're
14:19right the old stuff won't work you know
14:21even an online like look at Daisy I mean
14:23that was what the hell is that was a
14:26whole new experience I mean that's
14:27another thing I just love the business
14:28side so I did a little bit of tangent
14:30here but if you went to steam which you
14:31talked about earlier now so Daisy is
14:34probably one of those properties is
14:36perform really well on steam it's a
14:37little unaccessible to most people but
14:39if you went on to that place to buy it
14:40you actually saw the description that
14:42was like on all caps that look like
14:44lawyers fee which is basically do not
14:46buy this game like it's buggy it's not
14:49finished it's unpolished like don't get
14:52it all so they did incredibly well in
14:54the steam sales no they have something
14:55now they won't even on sale yeah like
14:57it's got a really strange word of mouth
14:59there's something that's never happened
15:01in the history the steam sale which is
15:02it was the holiday side it was like the
15:04Christmas sale yeah and for the whole
15:06sale they stayed the number one yeah
15:07this is what he was telling us something
15:09like so working working with him now and
15:11like one of the interesting points about
15:12that game is what was it that kept
15:15people there like the armored engine you
15:17know he'd be the first to say was not it
15:19wouldn't have been necessarily as first
15:20choice like you know and the development
15:22methodology of the game and the and kind
15:24of from a bargain development
15:26perspective it was a challenging project
15:27I mean it was unbelievably engaging yeah
15:29and there's something really cool there
15:31which is which I'm still trying to
15:32figure out from just a business side of
15:34like opportunities and stuff but if you
15:35look at dota it was basically a mod well
15:37which became a League of Legends and you
15:39look at you know this from Armin it's
15:41like Daisy it's like this mod community
15:43that grabs something it makes it
15:45something bigger it's really interesting
15:46I had totally I mean we we started I
15:48don't know what you feel about the stem
15:50but we started this sort of radical
15:51paradigm internally which is we think
15:53for now like all the development teams
15:55experimenting with us they're all
15:56modding versions of code bases that made
15:59up earlier games built on improve our
16:01whole stack is based around the idea
16:02that there's not really any difference
16:04between a game developer and a model
16:05they're both manipulating a shared goal
16:08base that they can keep adding to so you
16:10get these really strange variations of
16:12products that are in development they
16:13just kind of spin out in our team
16:14everyone's always game jamming and
16:16riffing on what people it's also like
16:18they can actually take a chance because
16:20they don't exactly yeah and they're not
16:22tied to commercial model and it's like
16:24it's not the same publishing model where
16:25it's like they can't take risks they
16:27have to sit there and plug the same
16:28franchise they have to do proven
16:29mechanics and the expectations are
16:31different to if you be soft to come out
16:33and really just Daisy like here it is
16:35people would have treated them I think
16:37differently yeah it was like it shows
16:41how I mean modeling is a great example
16:43of putting tools in the hands of a lot
16:45of people and shows how you know the
16:47next great idea it's really hard to
16:49ensure that it's in the right place like
16:52in your company it's like it might be
16:54out in the wild somewhere and whoever
16:55you know I made the right mod to that
16:57game and also created a new genre like
16:59they did with completely and the core
17:03risk of you no matter that game you die
17:04and you're permanently dead and when you
17:06meet people you know there's this choice
17:08I mean you see people streaming reaction
17:10shots of experiences they've had in the
17:12game these are real experience and they
17:14create a game right yeah and you created
17:15things in the players that they wanted
17:17to talk about completely I don't think
17:19is how things get promoted these days
17:21it's just everyone talking about it kind
17:23of there used to be called water coolers
17:25but I think it's obviously just YouTube
17:27streams exactly I mean I mean it left an
17:30effect on you and it was an effect that
17:31was yours and unique I remember I was
17:34one of those bad people that I want to
17:36confess that I played Daisy and I
17:38force-fed rotten meat
17:41like that I mean I was actually helped
17:42by this nice group of people and I just
17:44decided that stuff look really shiny and
17:45you know the game is quite laborious so
17:48I brutally murdered them with a shovel
17:49right and it was you know however it was
17:52I thought it would just be a game and I
17:53could Garris right but at the end of
17:54that experience you actually felt awful
17:56like absolutely awful there are these
17:59people that like why we helped you like
18:00why have you done this and I'm like I
18:02don't know I'm sorry you don't get that
18:05you know in an experience which is
18:06cookie-cutter or where you know the
18:08player engagement in that core the your
18:10choices are not being valued you know it
18:11sounds really bad but I feel like that's
18:13the valuable things about games that
18:15people don't talk about a lot which is
18:16experimenting with morality and behavior
18:19like little kids do like you're playing
18:21games you know you do something mean to
18:22someone and then you're like you didn't
18:24I didn't like how that felt I felt weird
18:26when they asked me why I did that you
18:27know like yeah you know like you know I
18:30think it's really great the kids play
18:31these games and they roleplay emotional
18:33situations or moral situations and they
18:35test out how it feels to misbehave or be
18:38bad or be the bad guy and they kind of
18:40make a choice that they liked it or they
18:41didn't like it you know I don't know if
18:43he'd be more likely to steal someone's
18:45food that's you know even me I mean
18:46after seeing what a shovel muttering
18:47looks like I'm off for life it's not
18:50gonna be any of those so let's talk a
18:51little bit more about this element of
18:53moral and ethical components to gaining
18:55I think that's actually really
18:56interesting we should pull on that
18:57thread a little bit more moral choices
18:58any choice right like the question is
19:00are they authentic choices you know most
19:03games don't I mean many games don't give
19:05people antic choices the ones that are
19:06don't think of the ones that they want
19:07really this really obvious choices like
19:09you found a puppy do you kill it do you
19:12harvest its blood or do you yeah and one
19:17choice is always like this is definitely
19:19better like you know it every way and oh
19:21by the way please click this button here
19:22yeah but I think yeah it's not about the
19:24games preaching a certain moral tone to
19:26the players it's about you probably if
19:28you provide that kind of either sandbox
19:30or a structured experience you can let
19:33them play like like I was saying little
19:35kids when they play cops and robbers is
19:36there any sort of like pretend role
19:38playing the kids to do is them exploring
19:41you know what is it like for me to be a
19:43powerful character or weaker character
19:45or just someone in a certain situation I
19:47can't be in real life then what would I
19:49do if I was that if I if I if I was
19:51invisible or could fly like whoa
19:53it for good let me try using it for bad
19:55looking it's it's great the kids can try
19:58out these things like I have a daughter
19:59and she's she just turned seven and
20:01sometimes I hear her being mean to her
20:04dolls and I used to be like are you
20:06crazy are you gonna be like an evil
20:07villain and I can tell it she is just
20:10like exploring things that are hard to
20:12do in real life like you don't want to
20:14actually be mean to people or you know
20:16but she's interested in the range of you
20:18know what happens if you try these
20:19things and I think when kids play with
20:21dolls that they figure out to role
20:23playing what it feels like and they get
20:25this kind of emotional practice and I
20:27think all sorts of play does this
20:28including video games so video games can
20:30just do it in a way that is really
20:32interesting it has a whole bunch of new
20:33potential and anything that we can do as
20:36technologists or developers to try and
20:37help people make and create more
20:39authentic choices and options and games
20:41is important right like if you're really
20:43gonna rob someone there should be a
20:44reaction in the world I'm you know if
20:46you you know there should be
20:46consequences to your actions and at
20:48least in the online game space that's I
20:50guess my main preoccupation trying to
20:51make that more possible because you did
20:53benefit by shoveling those people didn't
20:57tell you right or wrong the game didn't
20:58be like oh you know I didn't and that
21:00was but it was a real I probably thought
21:02about that choice in that game more than
21:04I think any choice I've thought about in
21:06any game have ever made since then and
21:08it's an experience that was entirely
21:09uniquely mine and when I went to dr.
21:11people about it they had their own
21:12advice but they didn't have the exact
21:13same choice right like a it was a unique
21:15moment yeah that that's when it was like
21:17minecraft things too that came up with
21:18minecraft it's like that first night you
21:20had to build a structure and the zombies
21:22come out because I'm like that was the
21:23first experience people had it's like
21:25well what was that like that first night
21:26for you yeah exactly but and then and it
21:28would've been slightly different each
21:29time depending upon where they were
21:30right so for me that's that's it I think
21:32that the magic future is one where you
21:34know we can do exactly what Tim says
21:36right which is have a have a world where
21:38you're exploring authentic choices be
21:40their moral or otherwise and whatever it
21:42takes to make those choices more
21:43authentic if it's putting on a VR
21:44headset or if it's you know being a
21:46simulated online world or if it's just
21:47having a really cracking good story
21:49if you ever considered like a system
21:51based game or more like online or
21:53something them you know yeah let's go
21:55well I mean especially after making an
21:56adventure game I was like oh now I
21:58remember why I stopped making those
21:59those are so hard to make is it every
22:01everything is a one-off thing like
22:03single-use thing you'll work for three
22:04months on somebody will take the player
22:06minutes to experience and I see the
22:09benefit of leveraging things the other
22:10ways so like you work on something for
22:13like an hour that takes someone like a
22:15day to play yeah it's been a big thing
22:18for us too like trying to save as much
22:20time to the developers as possible and
22:21each better gameplay IP introduced the
22:23idea of surgery and they introduced the
22:24idea of like electrocution they just
22:26create loads of moments right because
22:28that sort of a week of coding that is
22:30then months of potential variation so
22:32yeah yeah I worry about this though cuz
22:34this is um extreme example well no no
22:36it's crazy but it's the system versus
22:38content based games and it's like in the
22:40consumers minds it's like you know what
22:43are we basically doing there is when you
22:45go and watch a movie you know you pay 12
22:47bucks and that's fine but when you pay
22:48like and that's for a two hour
22:50experience but when you actually go and
22:52play a system based game you can play it
22:53for almost infinity let's just say you
22:55took 120 hours 160 hours and you're like
22:57you're expecting your expectation then
22:59is there's a cost associated with the
23:01playtime and so it almost makes these
23:03experiences content-based game
23:05experiences it sets them up to fail
23:08because people are like oh well that
23:10should be free when it takes like a
23:12crafting of years to it right completely
23:14and there's another worse problem which
23:15is that I think some systems case games
23:17based design can be very lazy right like
23:19you're still trying to create a fantasy
23:20you're still trying to create something
23:21that drives and guides a developer what
23:24I'd love is to take the crafted feeling
23:28of a proper fantasy universe or like a
23:31proper storyline experience and then
23:33combine that with components around
23:35system based experiences but components
23:37are designed to give the game more depth
23:39and background not do kind of pollute
23:41the core experience you know that's
23:43that's something that we'd really love
23:44to like explore I also think that online
23:46games have been such a scary bug there
23:47there's so many potentially fantastic
23:49developers just because of the crazy Sun
23:51cost and other stuff I want to dispel
23:53that illusion and let those developers
23:55experiment with kick-ass stuff so let's
23:58say this this this path continues
24:00there's more and more emancipation for
24:01developers was more and more direct
24:03access to the community and there's
24:05alternative funding channels it's bring
24:06up that allows you to kind of really you
24:08could do bigger productions for example
24:10but with the same the same kind of feel
24:13as the things that Double Fine makes
24:14right now what do you think the gaming
24:15arms keep that looks like I mean does it
24:17become like the music industry we've got
24:19if they had a gift from broken into
24:22Taylor Swift the next day the Swift in
24:27gaming that's my question production I
24:31mean I think it's it is interesting
24:32because one thing we were talking about
24:33earlier about modders and Indies and
24:36like how they get involved is the
24:37control aspect and it's like with Indies
24:39and with modders you don't have that
24:41control and that's one thing I'm excited
24:43to see you know how how will happen how
24:45evolve is with when you don't have that
24:47that old model is talking about a music
24:49industry was all about control over the
24:52creators and like if you decouple that
24:53and now you have access to money yeah
24:56and it's without control and so I think
24:58the creatives actually take that money
25:00and in you know before it's been like
25:02modders don't have money Indies don't
25:04have money but now you know Studios like
25:06I would Tim has a Tim as a label for
25:09this like triple I said these these
25:12studios they exist between Indies and
25:15Triple A which are like Double Fine
25:17which you know have an existing consumer
25:19base what do you say that naturally as a
25:21result of being Kickstarter originally
25:23funded and having the experience you
25:24guys did that you represent a more
25:26efficient model of game development do
25:28you think your capital usage is more
25:29efficient than if you were a studio
25:30funded company if you're in a studio and
25:32you have a bunch of say you have much'
25:33bands your music studio you know not all
25:36of them are gonna be the Rolling Stones
25:37and the Rolling Stones are gonna pay for
25:38all the other bands but you
25:40cross-collateralized so that you know
25:42they all kind of pay for each other
25:43which is great for you because you've
25:45taken the risk cuz you don't know which
25:46bands gonna be a hit you've taken that
25:48risk of spread it out and overall you
25:49know you're gonna make money cuz you
25:50have a you know 100 bands signed but if
25:53you're one of those individual bands you
25:54know you're not gonna make anything and
25:56you're not gonna keep any of your money
25:57because you're paying if you can make a
25:59little bit of money you're gonna be
25:59paying for all the other bands and you
26:01see these stories of occasionally a huge
26:03band big getting rich and so that kind
26:05of keeps the whole system going because
26:06like somebody's getting rich like it
26:07might it's like that's like a Vegas
26:09thing yeah could be me when I pull that
26:11lever it might be me so I feel like um I
26:13feel like that is inefficient you know
26:17when you look at it from that side cuz
26:18you're you're just trying to deal with
26:20risk looking at it from us a far enough
26:23back scale that uh it it's not as scary
26:26I guess but in terms of one per your one
26:29band or one game developing you're gonna
26:32you cut out that middleman who's just
26:33trying to mitigate their risk of their
26:35investment and you get the money
26:36directly from people who accept the risk
26:38in that you know I don't you know Tim's
26:40announcing a new adventure game he
26:42hasn't given the title he hasn't told me
26:43anything about it I don't know if he
26:46you don't who knows what's gonna happen
26:47but I want this I am a you know I'm a
26:51high-value consumer that knows what they
26:53want and I'm gonna put down $35 in
26:56advance you know I could lose it all but
26:58I'm gonna put it down because I need
27:00either because I believe so much in that
27:01person or because I just want it to
27:03happen so bad may they accept that risk
27:05and I feel like it creates this really
27:06kind of like I'm a bond that is
27:09financial but it's also based on like
27:11kind of commitment and passion and all
27:13they're all the right things I
27:14completely agree with that and this is
27:16where I think technology is important to
27:18Tim for you since you've been in the
27:19gaming industry so long like how has
27:21that evolved for you like the technology
27:23platforms like what's the biggest I mean
27:24you're you're at the heart you're
27:26consonant storyteller so I feel like for
27:28you like that's the primary focus but
27:30like how is that changed it's funny cuz
27:32I could at the beginning you know we're
27:33just starting a new project now so we
27:34should ship the last one and I still go
27:36to this um spiral notebook and started
27:38writing ideas down with a pen it's like
27:40this is the process is exactly the same
27:41for me cuz like kind of it's more of a
27:43journey into your own mind and trying to
27:44find ideas and and but I think the
27:48besides the funding models changing is
27:50the relationship with the community and
27:53how social media has changed that so
27:54they all have access to us in a way like
27:57when I was a kid I didn't have any idea
27:59how I could get in contact with a guy
28:01who you know no one bush no or like you
28:03know as of my Atari so much I don't know
28:06what to do with this area I can't go on
28:07Twitter and be like Nolan but nowadays
28:10you could you can go people can tell me
28:12immediately and trust me they do whether
28:14they like or don't like the game like
28:15the day it the second it comes out
28:17you'll hear from you know people of all
28:20all the whole spectrum of how they felt
28:21about your game and that's that's
28:23something you Jets are really like you
28:25know we have a full-time community
28:27manager to to handle that because that
28:29could be a great powerful part of the
28:31whole whole deal and it could be very
28:33dangerous if if you don't you know treat
28:36them well and and and be honest with
28:38them and and pay attention to them you
28:41know sometimes you have the angriest
28:42person in the world right your meanest
28:45just say oh oh I'm sorry you had that
28:47issue let me try and get that in our bug
28:49tracking system they're like I can't
28:50believe you answered they're so happy
28:52that you just listen to them so I just
28:54like listening to them and interacting
28:57with them and is definitely a new thing
28:59compared to how it was back in the 90s
29:01so that's the biggest change for you
29:02completely and I guess now more and more
29:04I guess the technology side would be
29:05developers can do something about it
29:07even for online games right you can you
29:09can make changes you can modify stuff
29:10like there were some people on worlds
29:12drift bosses come game and you know it's
29:14all about systems and physics but then
29:15they had a really semi resource model
29:17where like you were actually going up to
29:19a tree or a rock and extracting
29:20resources and people like flame them
29:22right they were like you built the
29:23physics game where your men do abut
29:24interact with the world and you have
29:25this technology like why can't you do it
29:26like a week later they posted a video of
29:28people dynamiting rocks and blowing them
29:29up and chopping down physicalize trees
29:31but to be able to do something about it
29:33in a week you know it feeds that cycle
29:34of community members who you know and
29:36the people the guy who posted the thing
29:38you know he's like the most you know
29:40he's a super fan now right like a boss
29:42every week right Lizzie's like wow you
29:43know I had that interaction and this is
29:46again where I think that Taylor Swift
29:47analogy is that's ridiculous right like
29:50a direct fan contact direct fan
29:52responses you know that's something
29:55that's now possible never was before
29:56great you guys thank you
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