00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael
00:03Copeland Costello and Ben Horowitz
00:05talked about leadership in front of an
00:07audience of military veterans and active
00:09duty soldiers on this segment of the a
00:1216z podcast with Silicon Valley can
00:15learn from the military's approach to
00:17leadership and how that applies and
00:19doesn't to building today's technology
00:21companies does leadership does it
00:24transfer from one venue to another so in
00:27this case from the military to Silicon
00:29Valley well I hope so because like all
00:32my favorite management books are
00:33military books so it's like the art of
00:35war there's the colon Powell book my
00:38American Journey there's the black
00:41jacobins so that to sound lo vetere book
00:44the problem with leadership in general
00:46is the easy thing to do is generally the
00:49wrong thing to do so you sort of slide
00:52into that and the great thing about the
00:55military leadership books is like
00:57everybody's gonna die if you do that
00:58whereas in like companies it's not
01:01actually life-and-death one of my
01:03favorite son Seuss stories which is I
01:06shouldn't even tell this story because
01:07it's so violent but there is a you know
01:12they're doing calisthenics and during
01:14the calisthenics to the guys are talking
01:17and you're not allowed to talk in
01:18calisthenics so he just walks over the
01:20guys talking tells him stand up takes
01:22out a sword and cuts off said no more
01:24talking cast at work not that you should
01:27do that in a company speeches don't do
01:29anything but like an object lesson like
01:31cut is that off they're like okay like
01:33everybody learned that and nobody's ever
01:35gonna forget it you give an all-hands
01:36speech nobody's gonna remember tomorrow
01:38and so you know these kinds of things
01:40are super powerful and it is like it's a
01:43pretty straight translation in that way
01:45for me I had several folks in my company
01:48who were leaders in the military and
01:50they were the most mentally tough people
01:51in the company remember the night of the
01:54IPO you know the stock was it like 47
01:56and we had priced at 16 on the s-1 like
01:59two weeks earlier and I got in front of
02:01everybody and said listen we took uh
02:03seven years to get from zero to 16 and
02:05now here we are two weeks later and it's
02:0747 it's not 47 because the company got
02:10three times more awesome in the last two
02:12weeks right so just remember
02:14it's gonna go down right but that's okay
02:16because we priced it at sixteen two
02:18weeks ago so we're it's great it's at
02:21forty it's at forty seven now but it
02:23might be 16 again just remember that's
02:26not mean it's that's not bad just as the
02:29fact that it's 47 today is not based on
02:31we got that much more awesome in two
02:33weeks so I thought well great like I've
02:36prepared them you know of and I've
02:37inoculated them to in the inevitable
02:39stock going down and of course the he's
02:42shaking is that goes down it was like oh
02:46you know what did we do wrong and you
02:49know Dave leg Aki who was a CEO and
02:52Anthony Noda with my CFO and Russ
02:55Laraway on my sales team was in the
02:57Marines were three of the three of the
03:00people who are like you know I yep we
03:04get it we're staying focused we know
03:05exactly what we have to do they were
03:07great with their team they didn't they
03:08didn't lose people on their teams they
03:11didn't have any churn so I always look
03:14for people like that who I knew are
03:15gonna be mentally tough and be able to
03:17deal with you know the ups and downs of
03:19the company and that goes for private
03:21companies as well as Ben knows I mean
03:23half the time you're like oh my god this
03:25is the best day of you know this is the
03:27company's going amazingly well in two
03:28days later like everything is ruined
03:30business in a week and does that need
03:32people who are mentally tough you know I
03:34got up on day at an all-hands and show
03:37just a picture of Mikkel Angela's David
03:39and I said all during the Renaissance
03:41these Renaissance artists portrayed
03:43David and Goliath as the moment after
03:45David chopped off Goliath's head you
03:47know the Verrocchio's and Donatello
03:50bronze statues are he's standing on top
03:52of his head with the sword and
03:53Caravaggio has got this bloody you know
03:55painting where he's chopping off his
03:57and Michelangelo chose to portray him
04:00just before he's about to throw the rock
04:03at him and he's got the sling over
04:05shoulder in the rock in his hands and
04:06he's focused you know and his muscles
04:08are sort of tense and I said you know
04:10Mikkel Angela chose to portray him in
04:12the moment between conscious choice and
04:14decisive action he knows what he's got
04:16to do and now he's got to go do it
04:18irrespective of all the other noise I
04:20said just keep that in mind when the
04:22media comes in and says this is you know
04:24what you're doing wrong and you should
04:27and the people who had been in the
04:29military and military leaders were the
04:31best at helping relate that story to
04:34their teams people talk about wartime
04:36CEOs and peacetime CEOs is that a real
04:38thing or is it just gradations of war
04:41well I started that you know with the
04:44peacetime CEO blog post I think yeah and
04:49and I actually got it from my friend
04:51Bill Campbell who you used to kind of
04:53talk about it to me a bit I think that
04:56the thing is management books are
04:58written almost entirely from the
05:01perspective of peacetime and so that
05:03that was the thing that I was trying to
05:05get out there designed to make it look
05:07simple and so then a lot of the things
05:09stylistically that come out of it like
05:11one of the things that you always get
05:12management books is never ever berate
05:17anybody in public but then you read
05:19about guys like Steve Jobs and
05:21anti-growth all day long they're
05:22berating people are public like they
05:24were the most successful so like what's
05:26going on here it does get down to look
05:30there are times when you need so much
05:33precision that like if you're gonna lose
05:35somebody in whatever a war for talent
05:38because they got their feelings hurt
05:39well that's just gonna be how it's got
05:40to be because you need to teach that
05:42sunsoo object lesson like somebody's
05:45getting their head chopped off for the
05:46good of the whole because like the
05:48Army's got to stay discipline you know
05:49that is kind of the wartime mentality
05:51now like if you do that all the time and
05:53you're doing it in peacetime they're
05:55like nobody's going to want to work for
05:56you and and like so that that is a real
05:59thing and you do want to look you want
06:02to develop people and give them a chance
06:05to make mistakes and that like create
06:08environment of so much fear that people
06:10are afraid to talk and and all these
06:12things are important but at the same
06:14time there are situations where you're
06:17really going to lose a company if people
06:19don't do what they're supposed to do and
06:20so you've got to treat those that way so
06:23yeah I do think there are both yeah
06:25sometimes you're both at the same time
06:26inside the company right with remember
06:28times at Twitter where with the sales
06:30team I could focus on all right this is
06:33really good this engines really working
06:34it's going well let's focus on you know
06:36building better leaders and let's focus
06:39on how can we improve the
06:40working with resellers you know and
06:42meanwhile over in product you know I'm
06:44like what's the matter with this thing
06:46taking like four weeks instead of you
06:48know that was supposed to be out
06:50the team that you described at Twitter
06:52were like they stayed focused they
06:54didn't lose anyone when the when the
06:56stock was falling what engenders loyalty
07:00and commitment in Silicon Valley how can
07:02you build teams that have your back and
07:03yeah and we'll stick together this is
07:06gonna sound probably trite but I'll
07:08explain it trust you know the best
07:11leaders tell everyone on their team the
07:13same thing and they don't manage by
07:16they managed by you know telling
07:18everyone the truth and being honest and
07:20direct with them and the reason that
07:22those several teams didn't lose people
07:24is because those leaders at that point
07:26told them hey you remember the night of
07:28the IPO and dick gave us this talk it's
07:30we're gonna go through this rough patch
07:31all companies do the media is gonna beat
07:34the out of us for the next two
07:35months come and ask me if you have any
07:37questions it's gonna get really tough
07:39the stock might even go might go down a
07:40lot further and so people are like ok
07:42and then when that happens they're like
07:44okay you know rustler russ told me that
07:47might happen and you know coming in
07:49every morning we're still focused on the
07:50same three things instead of the leader
07:53who tells people what they want to hear
07:54and tells Ryan something slightly
07:56different than what he tells Cathy and
07:58you know and and oh people are sad maybe
08:01I'll tell them I'll try to get them
08:02promoted next time and you know and
08:04those are the people that they leave
08:05that meeting happy and two months later
08:07they realized that their leaders just
08:09been creating misery for them and they
08:11leave so clarity of message consistency
08:13of message or just being truthful
08:15telling people what what they need to
08:18hear even if it's hard for them to hear
08:20it and they don't agree with it that's
08:22the way you build trust with your team
08:24you know and they leave the room may be
08:25unhappy in that moment or sad in that
08:27moment but later on they realized okay
08:30well you know Russ told me that three
08:32months ago and here we are instead of
08:34wait you told me you know that you'd
08:36talk to dick about promoting me to
08:37senior director if I stayed here through
08:40this rough patch right then how do you
08:43view that building that trust or putting
08:45that commitment they think that's right
08:47like a lot of it you know when you're in
08:51a place like Silicon Valley where
08:54there's a lot of competition for talent
08:56and people do have a fiduciary
08:57responsibility to their families to take
09:00the best opportunity for them it is a
09:04little more nuanced than in most places
09:08but think dicks getting at the thing
09:11which is you gotta remember when you go
09:15to work somewhere you start to kind a
09:18little bit become your environment and
09:20you know particularly the younger you
09:22are the more you become your environment
09:24and so if it's a place where you feel
09:28like you're either not learning or
09:30becoming a worse person like not the
09:32person you want to be then you know
09:35that's when you really know even if
09:37you're a loyal person you're gonna want
09:38to leave you know and vice versa if you
09:41feel like okay now like I I'm actually
09:42really learning how to be the person I
09:45always wanted to become because like
09:47this is the kind of leadership I have
09:49and this is how it's going then then
09:51that's going to make you stay and a lot
09:53of that you know to dick's point is you
09:56know like how loyal are you to your
09:58people are you committed to telling them
09:59the truth are you committed to their
10:01development are you gonna really tell
10:04them when something's in their best
10:05interests are not in their best and
10:06right this is the horrible thing about
10:09being a leader you kind of get the
10:11environment that you create you get the
10:13people will behave the way you do and so
10:16like your flaws get magnified in a
10:18really horrifying way if you don't work
10:22on them so like I think one of the most
10:24important things to get loyalty is like
10:26you got to really work on yourself and
10:28make sure you're the type of person that
10:30somebody's gonna want to work with okay
10:32and if you do that then yeah that's but
10:34that usually is the biggest thing you
10:36can do if a military ex-military active
10:39military comes in and says like okay I
10:41want to go work for your new startup
10:42where I want to go work for one of our
10:43portfolios companies what are the
10:45positive and negative biases that sort
10:48of pop into your head or are you past
10:50that I can tell you immediately what
10:53mine were the positives were this person
10:56will be a you know I know they're gonna
10:58come in they're gonna be mentally tough
10:59they're gonna work their ass off and
11:01they'll be like not distracted by like
11:05some nonsense like oh there's a bad
11:07mean blog post about us in Business
11:09Insider you know I mean you would be you
11:11laugh but you'd be you know surprised
11:21so that and that's great and that's
11:23worth its weight in gold
11:25the only negative that kind of that I
11:27can think of is the in in a couple
11:30specific cases for me there was a lack
11:32of just domain expertise and the thing
11:35that I where I really wanted them to
11:37work and they had to come up to speed on
11:38that so I would look for areas where I
11:40thought well this person's gonna be able
11:41to come up to speed on it and they'll be
11:43able to do it very quickly and in fact
11:44in both cases they were incredibly
11:46successful yeah I'd say so
11:48to me and I think those are real alright
11:52to me the biggest thing about having
11:54somebody who opted to go into the
11:57military and then has spent time there
11:58is when you look at a company people are
12:02in your company for a variety of reasons
12:04like they're they're doing it to get
12:05rich or they're doing it to like yeah
12:07for their image of changing and they're
12:09all or they're doing it to advance their
12:10career and for the best company like the
12:14the very best work experience the very
12:16best companies when they're doing it for
12:18each other you know in a great way and a
12:22lot of people come out of Stanford or
12:24you know Berkeley computer so I don't
12:27understand what that means and don't
12:29understand what it means to do something
12:30bigger than yourself but it's always
12:33been the Marines or you know I decided
12:38to do that like you really know what
12:39that means you know the power of it and
12:42you know what it means not just in the
12:44job but in life and so having people in
12:47the company who can lead the company to
12:51that kind of thing to me is the number
12:54one reason why you know I would just
12:57write that very highly of a cultural
12:59standpoint that's the number one thing
13:00that I look for in a in any kind of
13:02organization that I'm involved in
13:04because at the end of the day that is
13:06what's gonna matter then you you
13:08addressed the graduating class from
13:11Columbia last year and your basic
13:14message was don't follow your passion
13:17why crush everyone's dreams over what
13:21I think I'd listen the whole speech look
13:26when you're in college people that give
13:28you this advice follow your passion and
13:30and it's actually difficult advice
13:32because like when you know my passion
13:35when I was 20 years old was to be a
13:37rapper you know that's great but like I
13:45didn't really have the talent and so you
13:50know is that really the thing that I
13:51should be doing and then you know the
13:53other thing is like what you love it 20
13:54isn't necessarily what you love it 25 or
13:5730 and so forth and so the point I
13:59wanted to make to them was you know
14:01follow your contribution like what do
14:04you feel like where you can really make
14:06a difference and do that and you'll end
14:09up really liking it and it's a little
14:11bit of a false thing because people are
14:13super successful go yeah I'm totally
14:15passionate about my work but it didn't
14:18start that way right they did they're
14:19passionate because they're successful
14:21like they're they're great at it they
14:23love doing it you know like if they
14:24sucked at it they wouldn't be passionate
14:26about it and so like my passion wasn't
14:29to be a venture capitalist but I love
14:30doing it because I'm good at it and then
14:32I always thought follow your passion was
14:34the most self-centered like advice like
14:36ever it's like oh it's all about me what
14:38do I love to do you know like well like
14:41how about you know what you can
14:42contribute to tethers when you can do
14:45and then the biggest thing I've learned
14:46as I've gotten older is that the biggest
14:49secret to life is what you contribute
14:53means a lot more than what you get I
14:55mean you went from you followed your
14:58passion but it seems like you found your
14:59passion to building companies and well
15:02look if I had auditioned for sale I
15:04haven't gotten in you know but I didn't
15:07get in you know like it's a hard
15:10audition and they were tearing didn't
15:13get it at the time I just happened to
15:14have you know Tina auditioned and didn't
15:17get in around the same time but you know
15:19she was like I'm gonna everything else
15:21I'm gonna do I'm doing this so I gotta
15:23figure it out and I had my computer
15:25science degree to fall back on and love
15:26doing it love doing that too so I went
15:28back to technology does everyone in
15:30technology have to be an entrepreneur at
15:34or are there roles where it's not
15:37necessarily entrepreneur at the heart of
15:41things most people aren't entrepreneurs
15:43that's too many generals not enough
15:44soldiers I mean like yeah it's good to
15:52have people who are entrepreneurial in
15:53your company but if but you know I'm
15:56really entrepreneurs people who are
15:59great entrepreneurs have like and and
16:02have amazing short-term memory-loss like
16:05they're just like even going back and
16:07starting this company now that I'm
16:08starting I'm like oh god I forgot what
16:11and even though I've done it four times
16:13I was out in the and the lobby of our
16:15office the other day I said God I forgot
16:17what a pain in the ass like setting up
16:19XYZ is and you know it's like you've
16:21done this like five times how can you
16:23not remember what to play you know it's
16:24like I just keep forget you know and
16:26then you start over and you're like this
16:27is going to be amazing and you have to
16:29do all that stupid stuff again and so I
16:32think there there there are a few of
16:35those people and probably more doing it
16:37than should and there's plenty of room
16:39for great leaders in in Silicon Valley
16:41who are not for us as leaders don't ask
16:44you this first been in you to dick bet
16:45when people start calling for your head
16:47media investors employees it's happened
16:52to you I know how do you process that
16:58and then how do you get through it
17:01you just gotta focus on the mission I
17:03mean like it is what it is you know like
17:05people aren't if as the leader
17:07everybody likes what you do you're not a
17:09you know politician yeah like you're
17:11running for president at that point you
17:12get paid to make the decision that's
17:16unpopular right like if everybody knows
17:19the direction the organization should go
17:21in then they don't need you right it's
17:24when you do something that people think
17:26oh that's a wrong direction and they
17:28don't like that's gonna be the actual
17:31important work that you do and so there
17:34are going to be times when the people
17:35who don't like that our investors or
17:37people in the press and if you look at
17:39any of the really outstanding CEOs
17:42they've all gone through that that's
17:43just how it is and you can't worry about
17:46and then the other thing for me
17:48I was lucky and that I had a board that
17:50I really trusted and I said to the board
17:52I'm probably too many occasions but I
17:55like I would say too that might say to
17:56mark was on my board I said mark like if
17:59you need to fire me you don't even have
18:01to sit me down tell me I'm fired you
18:02just like tapped me on the shoulder and
18:04like we didn't have the conversation
18:06like I'm done if you think I'm not the
18:09best person to run this company it's not
18:11a problem for me because I'm not is it
18:13about me this is about the company and
18:15I'm a big shareholder I want it to
18:17succeed don't even worry about it just
18:19just give me a nod and I'm gone
18:21and so and I think that's how you have
18:24to feel as a leader right you're trying
18:25to totally agree yeah I mean I had the
18:28exact same conversation with my board
18:30many times you know long before the IPO
18:33like hey listen when it comes time for
18:35don't ever have any conversation behind
18:37my back about it just come tell me
18:39you're not the guy anymore and I'll like
18:41listen I'll be cooperative and and
18:43you're not gonna get a degree from me
18:44about severance I'll just go great
18:46thanks it's been an amazing experience
18:48and I'll be super supportive of whatever
18:50you want to do next and if you don't
18:53have that attitude about it you're just
18:55gonna be you know then then you're just
18:56gonna be miserable and you're not going
18:58to be able to lead because you're gonna
18:59be constantly thinking well what would
19:01the board be happy if I do right right
19:04and you can't miss no waiting she's
19:05gonna create misery for everybody and
19:07it's all yourself and what you're
19:09describing both of you it's not like you
19:10have to be thick-skinned you just need
19:12to be one truthful and engaged in the
19:16right way it sounds like well hurts your
19:17feelings like like when somebody says
19:19you're like the worst CEO ever if you're
19:21an egomaniac out of control or you have
19:23no strategy I've heard Sarah feels
19:34ignored stuff and then I would say wow
19:38did you see this Jesus why did you send
19:42my daughter texted me one day at the end
19:46of 2014 she's like hey Dad
19:48bad news good news what's the bad news
19:51she's like the bad news is Yahoo said my
19:53daughter 17 now 16 I'm at 15 that time
19:56she sends me his text and says the bad
19:58news is Yahoo Finance says you're one of
20:01five worst CEOs of 2014 okay what's the
20:08good news she goes your number five I
20:11want to shift a little bit to the US
20:13military and kind of what happens coming
20:16out of it from a company creation
20:18standpoint then Israel has this
20:19incredible company formation machine
20:21that starts with the military you work
20:22on teams together and it seems like a
20:24you know every other team starts their
20:27own company is this well I've read
20:29everybody in the country of Israel is in
20:31the military I wouldn't take the
20:35military process to be the company
20:37building it's just like if you're an
20:38entrepreneur and you're from Israel you
20:39were in the military they do go out and
20:44they like start coke well so they're so
20:45dis I'm sorry what's missing here or is
20:47there not like I think there's
20:49definitely a lot of relevant things that
20:51come across but the other thing that
20:53that is kind of more important is the
20:56systems thinking like how do systems
20:58work you know be a technical system an
21:01organizational system a company and
21:04that's what you need you know a CEO from
21:08leadership perspective yeah you need
21:10people who think about it in a systems
21:12context one of the things about being in
21:15the military is it's a system that's
21:18evolved over centuries and the knowledge
21:22that's gone into how it's organized how
21:24instructions come down how they're kind
21:27of validated and followed and so forth
21:29you can't be part of that and not think
21:32okay if we take this action then there's
21:34these consequences we know about there's
21:37these unintended consequences you know
21:39like how does that move through and like
21:41how our people affect it so that is all
21:44I would say just very very valuable I
21:46think there are things that go kind of
21:50cross anyone with a military background
21:53like there is no leadership real
21:56leadership training for sure in college
21:59here and typically not even in business
22:02school there's no leadership training or
22:04no meaningful leadership training and in
22:06the military that is kind of a real
22:09fundamental part of the experience and
22:11so that tends to be very useful because
22:13this dick will tell you one of the
22:15dick and I started spending a lot of
22:16time together was just how necessary
22:19management training is here because
22:21nobody has it no nobody knows what
22:23they're doing and so if you don't teach
22:24it in your company you're gonna have a
22:26really poorly run company and so to have
22:29people who come in with an orientation
22:31around that is super powerful and then
22:33there's all you know there are you know
22:35to the extent that you have technical
22:37training that's also incredibly valuable
22:39and in Silicon Valley for sure you know
22:41one of the things you I remember you
22:43telling me which most people and
22:45management roles in Silicon Valley don't
22:47implement is make sure everybody
22:49understands what you understand course
22:53it's make sure everybody understands
22:55what you understand and people coming in
22:56from military have that perspective much
23:01more deeply ingrained in them than 95%
23:04of people who are in management roles in
23:06Silicon Valley I would even do things
23:07like ask a director of engineering it is
23:10are you sure everyone on the iOS team
23:12knows what the top three power yeah
23:14absent we're all we're on the same page
23:17uh-huh go down there you know 9:00 p.m.
23:19at night or 10:00 p.m. at night go up to
23:21a couple of the iOS engineers we're the
23:23top three priorities of like what you
23:25guys are working on you know this guy's
23:26got you know XY and Z Prime and this guy
23:30says no no it's a B and you know for and
23:33so that's how most people manage make up
23:36in Silicon Valley let's open it up to
23:37questions from you guys so we're coming
23:40from military institution where there
23:43are good leaders and bad leaders we all
23:44have anecdotal experiences with that but
23:47the very nature of what we did required
23:49mission accomplishment so if there was a
23:52bad leader or we rallied you kind of
23:54worked around it and the bad leader
23:56wasn't always aware that they were a bad
23:58leader but here they're right if you're
24:01a bad leader I mean there's not that
24:03same level of commitment to your company
24:05right I'm gonna go somewhere else where
24:06I'm recognized as this is a meritocracy
24:09right so then they leave and then the
24:11bad leader is like well everyone left
24:13was at the market or was it that I was a
24:15bad leader and then you know what their
24:17career can decide what I was hoping that
24:20you could provide insight on for us was
24:22highlighting when that objective lesson
24:25is really required because we all know
24:27that like there have been times
24:29we've needed to pull that out but in our
24:31institution that's also like a sign of
24:33marketing that's like a bravado brands
24:35that you kind of bring to the table like
24:37the first day of prison like I'm gonna
24:39talk the deepest and talked to loudest
24:40and that means I'm a good leader could
24:42you provide some insight or maybe the
24:44strategies you've seen where that's
24:47necessary to break people in public but
24:50then kind of when it's where we lack is
24:52trying to read people as people who come
24:55from completely different backgrounds
24:57and different experiences and how to
24:59really motivate them to do what they
25:01need to do and stay loyal to you you
25:04know generally like these tools you you
25:07always want to do anything as a leader
25:10because it's effective not because you
25:13know it's your personality or it makes
25:14you feel good about yourself or whatever
25:16to like yell at somebody or so forth so
25:18I think that if you go into a meeting
25:22and you go look it's really critical in
25:25this company that for just a simple
25:26example meetings start on time like
25:29we're gonna be precise we're gonna work
25:32hard we're not we're gonna be respectful
25:34of each other and not waste each other's
25:35time by coming into a meeting thirty
25:37minutes late or something then you know
25:39one of my favorite stories is Andy Grove
25:42at Intel who is like him he's running
25:43Intel and tells a gigantic company and
25:45he's in the meeting and somebody walks
25:48in five minutes late and he looks at
25:50them and he says all I have in this
25:52world is time and you're wasting it that
25:54is like how can you make anybody feel
25:56smaller his purpose there was to one to
26:00let everybody in that room know how
26:02important it was to be on time but then
26:04also say it in a way that was so
26:06colorful even I heard it and I even work
26:08at Intel right and so that kind of
26:12spread so that's like a an instance of
26:14doing something that was very effective
26:16I've got people highly disciplined and
26:18there was a ton of kind of Intel stories
26:21like that he would get to work early in
26:23the morning and if your desk was messy
26:25write you up but like Andy Grove would
26:27write you up in so you clean up your
26:29desk but it was just all around you know
26:30we are making we're in a precision
26:32business we've got to be on time we've
26:34got to be organized and that kind of
26:36thing and so if that's what you want
26:38you've got to teach in those kinds of
26:40object lessons that's different than
26:42having a bad day and losing it on
26:46we're like you're just they had a
26:48different opinion than you where they
26:50challenged you or your decision and said
26:52well why are we doing it this way and
26:54you just explode at them that's terrible
26:56because now people aren't going to tell
26:58you the truth right so you get a
27:00different outcome so you have to think
27:01about like what your behavior you like
27:03what's the what what is the end result
27:05of your behavior when you do something
27:07like that in public and that's the kind
27:10of that's the leadership that's the
27:12discipline of the leader to make sure
27:14that you're being effective and getting
27:16what you want and teaching the lessons
27:18you want known and not getting
27:19unintended consequences because you
27:21can't control yourself you're acting
27:23like an idiot it's a fine line right it
27:26actually looks the same to everybody but
27:29it's not the same I would always tell my
27:31managers and leaders you have to help
27:34people understand why we must achieve
27:37what we must achieve you can't just tell
27:39them what they have to do
27:40well the an says that we're out of time
27:42I'm a so I want to thank dick and Ben
27:45thank you guys so much and you guys been
27:47great thanks thanks everybody
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