00:00hi I'm Matt spent some a partner in
00:02recent Horowitz and welcome to the a 16z
00:04podcast we have today a conversation
00:06with Senator Camille Harris which was
00:08recorded at our DC policy summit live in
00:10May of this year senator thank you very
00:13much for making time to join us today
00:17Kamala Harris has devoted her career to
00:19public safety and civil rights she made
00:22history as the first African American
00:24and the first woman elected as the
00:27Attorney General of California and she
00:29is only the second african-american
00:31woman in history to be elected to the
00:34United States Senate we'll talk a little
00:36more about her careers of prosecutors we
00:38get into this but I do want to add this
00:40may not be clear from her work and the
00:41Senate she is a devout x-men fan and she
00:44is an excellent cook senator Harris
00:46before entering the Senate you are a
00:48career prosecutor you prosecuted
00:51everything from violent crimes to human
00:54trafficking to international criminal
00:56cartels and then you most recently
00:59served as the as California's Attorney
01:01General which is the chief law
01:03enforcement officer of the sixth largest
01:05economy in the world yes we have a view
01:08that some of the most important tech
01:10policy issues are actually not made in
01:12Washington at all but are actually made
01:14at the state and local level they're
01:16made by governor's attorney generals and
01:18mayor's who actually some of the most
01:19important tech policymakers and that's
01:22really what you're at the center of and
01:23so when you were representing California
01:26in Silicon Valley you really had a
01:28front-row seat to see some of the new
01:30technologies rolling out so that's
01:33everything from drones to ride-sharing
01:35drivers cars to digital currency how did
01:39you tackle and think about these
01:41challenges of updating existing rules
01:44and regulations to new technologies that
01:46lawmakers might not have even have
01:48thought about when they wrote some of
01:50these laws all right well so I am I will
01:54say with bravado a proud daughter of
01:55California my parents met when they were
01:59graduate students at UC Berkeley when
02:01they were active in the civil rights
02:02movement in the 1960s so my sister and I
02:06joke we grew up surrounded by a bunch of
02:08adults who spent full time marching and
02:09shouting about this thing called justice
02:13mother arrived at Berkeley as a 19 year
02:16old from India she graduated college she
02:20wanted to study science and one of the
02:23best schools in the world was UC
02:25Berkeley so my grandfather said do you
02:26want to do that go ahead and so that is
02:29where she met my father during the civil
02:31rights movement but I grew up then the
02:34daughter of a scientist and my mother
02:37would actually take us to the lab with
02:39her on weekends and after work in fact
02:41little-known fact my first job was
02:43cleaning pipettes I was awful I got
02:46fired but I grew up in this environment
02:49around people as an extension of my
02:53mother's communities scientists who were
02:56so passionate about what can be
03:00unburdened by what had been their entire
03:04motivation was to create the things that
03:07have not been created that will improve
03:10mankind that will improve the human
03:13experience so I very naturally just I
03:18have a great passion for innovation you
03:21know there is something about science
03:23also and and all that we have done in
03:24California around the creation of the
03:27technology that has changed the world
03:29that is also about understanding that
03:31when we're engaged in innovation it's
03:34it's not because we're bored with things
03:36as they've been innovation is about the
03:40pursuit of things that can improve that
03:43we can be more accurate we can be faster
03:45we can be more efficient I'm also as you
03:48said a career prosecutor I started my
03:50work at the Alameda County DA's office
03:53that earl warren once ran it's
03:54considered one of the best DA's offices
03:55in the country I started out with
03:57low-level offenses and and I rose up to
04:00prosecuting homicides so here we are in
04:03this incredible age where we're all
04:05privileged I think to be in the jobs
04:08that we have in the world is changing
04:10and technology has upended long-standing
04:12business models it's it's a whole new
04:15plateau in terms of our evolution and
04:17economies and all of that and the way
04:19that I then approach it with my
04:20background is to be very excited about
04:23the innovation and do and want to do
04:26encourage it I understand that
04:28government sometimes when presented with
04:30something that is new and and and is not
04:34known can respond in a way with fear and
04:38wants to just regulate and shut it down
04:39and knowing that as a as a public
04:44servant I always wanted to cause us to
04:46pause and not do that and not be
04:48reflective in that way because we really
04:50need to encourage the innovation also as
04:53a prosecutor I know in this exciting new
04:56world there are vulnerable people and we
04:59have to do everything also that we can
05:02do to make sure that people are safe so
05:04how do you think about that because
05:05those are I've been to incredibly
05:07important balance right encouraging
05:09innovation and making people safe yep
05:12and the way people used to think about
05:13prosecutors doing that is using a stick
05:15you know right a threat of prosecution
05:17law enforcement and that creates a lot
05:19of uncertainty sighs right how did you
05:21think about balancing those things and
05:22working through that right so I think
05:25for so long on criminal justice policy
05:27we have been relegated to the false
05:32choice which suggests that you're either
05:33soft on crime or you're tough on crime
05:35instead of asking are we smart on crime
05:38instead of looking at what the public
05:41health model has taught us so well you
05:43want to deal with an epidemic be it
05:44health or crime smartest most effective
05:47and efficient way to deal with it is
05:48prevention first if we're dealing with
05:50it in the emergency room or the prison
05:51system far too late and much too
05:53expensive it is not efficient to build a
05:56system around reacting to a problem we
05:59must give equal priority at least to
06:02preventing the problem from occurring in
06:03the first place so on this issue about
06:05the concern that that that we have about
06:08technology growing at such a rapid pace
06:10and protecting vulnerable people my
06:13approach has been understanding that
06:15there are still there still protocols
06:19and procedures and and perspective that
06:21need to be taught and need to be learned
06:24by this industry this industry must
06:26understand that privacy is a value that
06:28we take seriously as a country it is it
06:31is very prevalent in the Constitution of
06:34the United States as a priority and so
06:36what can we do to build into the
06:39model of the industry a concern and an
06:41attention to this issue of privacy as an
06:44example of the things we can do we think
06:47how we did that so I'll give you a
06:49specific example when I shortly after I
06:53was elected Attorney General California
06:54which was in 2010 a group of my lawyers
06:57came into my office and and Here I am
07:00I'm the top cop of the biggest state in
07:02the country the Attorney General
07:03California and a group of my lawyers
07:05came in and they said hey boss hey boss
07:07is what they call me boss boss did you
07:09know that when you download a mobile app
07:13they can download your entire contact
07:15list and I said no I did not know that
07:18and they said well and you know it is
07:20explicit in the constitution of
07:22California that privacy is a right yes I
07:24do know that and so they said
07:26collectively so let's sue them and I
07:32said okay slow down Cowboys let's
07:35approach this a little differently
07:36let's bring in these folks and have a
07:39conversation with them and see if we can
07:41work something out and that's exactly
07:43what we did and I got on the phone with
07:45the folks at Apple and Microsoft and the
07:48six major platforms and and I'm not
07:52suggesting by any stretch that these
07:54folks were excited or happy to get a
07:56call from the Attorney General oh is it
07:58kind of a right exactly but they took
08:00the call and over the course of six
08:02months we worked out I think an
08:04all-too-rare example of government and
08:06industry coming together to solve a
08:08problem short of regulation or
08:12litigation or legislation and what we
08:14did is we came up with an understanding
08:16that would that there would be an
08:17industry standard that requires that
08:20that the hosts of these mobile apps
08:22would require that the mobile app have a
08:25privacy policy and that it would be
08:26explicit and available to everyone and
08:29you know the beauty of doing that work
08:31is that as we know technology is now
08:36it's not like we're talking about one
08:39group of companies in one neighborhood
08:42in one city in one state in one country
08:46when the technology companies actually
08:49agree to certain protocols and ways of
08:53it has global impact and so that's the
08:55exciting aspect of it but it also I
08:58think magnifies the the significance of
09:00having an understanding and coming to an
09:03understanding when we can with industry
09:05yeah and I let me just be clear about
09:07this I I also am very well aware that I
09:10have a carrot and a stick I prefer to
09:14start with the carrot but I'm also
09:15prepared to the stick had we not been
09:18able to come to that agreement and where
09:21there were examples of folks who are not
09:22complying with that agreement we did
09:25I mean that's important I think I think
09:28folks don't usually appreciate just the
09:30sheer amount of that convening power and
09:32use absolutely right there's a huge
09:34trend towards modernizing government at
09:36all levels you know whether it's foster
09:38care providing better medical care
09:40caring for our veterans but on the crime
09:43front that you spent so much time on you
09:46mentioned the role that technology can
09:47play yeah how did you think about or how
09:49do you think about how we might use
09:50technology to better fight crime and
09:52apply some of those insights to this
09:54really tough problem
09:55so I'm obsessed with the need for
09:57adoption of technology by government
09:59with a specific emphasis based on my
10:01career as a prosecutor on the adoption
10:04of technology by law enforcement so
10:06let's put all of this in context so
10:09technology has brought about so many new
10:13ways of thinking of having a motion of
10:16language and all of that and it's
10:18brought about certain terms that
10:19everyone here knows right open open data
10:22big data you know when I came out of law
10:25school we had big data and I will tell
10:28you what it looked like it was this
10:30really tall aluminum file cabinet with
10:33thousands of files that was big data
10:36right but now because of technology we
10:40can write code that can figure out what
10:43is in there and analyze it we can engage
10:45in predictive policy we can be smarter
10:47so when I was Attorney General
10:50California I decided that we would try
10:52an open data initiative with the vast
10:56amount of data that we had in terms of
10:58the criminal justice system in this the
11:00largest state in the country almost 39
11:02million people and so we created an open
11:06initiative and basically what we did is
11:08we downloaded and then made available to
11:12the public all of the information we had
11:15about criminal justice data as it
11:17relates to arrests as it relates to
11:19deaths in custody police officers killed
11:22in the line of duty I'll tell you
11:23something else about government which
11:25you all probably know government has a
11:27tendency to be like private individuals
11:29which is this all of that data all that
11:31information about ourselves we just hold
11:34on to we don't like to share it because
11:38transparency reads as also we all know
11:41this vulnerability oh my goodness I have
11:44to put all my stuff out there people
11:46will start picking apart that doesn't
11:48feel good that doesn't make me
11:50comfortable so we hold on to this but if
11:53we're really gonna be smarter as
11:55government we need to understand that
11:57this data when we analyze it when we
12:00apply metrics to our analysis and
12:02evaluation of our effectiveness instead
12:04of gauging effectiveness based on some
12:07good blind adherence to tradition when
12:10we apply metrics to our measurement of
12:13our effectiveness we all know private
12:14sector knows it quite well we will be
12:16much more effective and so the data
12:19helps us do that and so we created this
12:21open data initiative we called it open
12:23justice where we shared with everyone
12:25journalists academics whoever wanted to
12:28see it all this information and I'll
12:29give you an example of what came about
12:31as a result of of downloading it and
12:33then sharing it without any depth of
12:36analysis we saw a few things and by the
12:38way I shared this with everyone because
12:40I also know government does not have the
12:41skill set the culture or the bandwidth
12:43to necessarily analyze this data within
12:48its current structure and so the benefit
12:50also about an open data initiative as it
12:52relates to government is all of these
12:54other folks journalists and academics
12:56can use their skills and their tools to
12:59help government analyze its own
13:01effectiveness and so as an example with
13:04open justice we found african-americans
13:06are 6 percent of California's population
13:08and we're almost 25 percent of
13:11in-custody deaths so that required us to
13:14have a conversation with folks who were
13:19the protests of black lives matters and
13:22say hey guess what the data shows us
13:27there are significant disparities in
13:30terms of what we're seeing in the
13:32criminal justice system so let's
13:34acknowledge it and then deal with that
13:36and so the point about open data as it
13:38relates to government is it's so
13:40profound when you think about it because
13:42government has three essential functions
13:46Public Safety public education and
13:50public health can you imagine if
13:53government writ large really really
13:56adopted technology in a way that we
13:58engaged in open data the kind of
14:01information that we possess if it were
14:04really available for academics for
14:08journalists for whoever to analyze and
14:11help us figure out where we are or if we
14:14are being effective it's I mean I'm so
14:17excited about the possibilities if we
14:19can get everyone there and not be afraid
14:20yeah of technology there's in fact one
14:23company work with open gov which talks
14:25about trying to tax a lot of this data
14:27that's exactly put it together at the
14:28state and local level and the insights
14:30you have about budgeting others absolute
14:32significant and return on investment
14:34yeah so you know in the United States
14:36Senate yes and you know one of the
14:39themes that we've thought about and
14:41talked about and this conference again
14:44is bridging this divide so in your
14:46months and the Senate you know what
14:48surprised you what are some of your
14:50interactions been with some of the
14:52senators and what's you know as being a
14:54freshman what are you what are you
14:54seeing so far it's in it you know it's
14:58an interesting experience and it's an
15:01environment I'm told by people who have
15:02been here for a while that is is is
15:04different because it's upended a lot of
15:07folks in terms of their expectations of
15:09what would be happening and their role
15:11in terms of government and leadership
15:13but it's been a it's been a good
15:15experience it's been a learning
15:16experience I'm on the Budget Committee
15:19I'm on Environment and Public Works I'm
15:23on Homeland Security and I'm on the
15:25Senate Intelligence Committee so all of
15:27them are presenting us with a lot of
15:31information about challenge
15:32and the Senators like hang out do you
15:34have dinner well yes and I and I'll tell
15:37you this I mean I feel very strongly
15:38that some of the most intractable issues
15:41that challenge us as a country are not
15:44only bipartisan they're nonpartisan and
15:47if you know and so if we approach it
15:49from that perspective I think will be
15:51much more effective here's another way I
15:53look at it in my experience when people
15:55wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning with
15:59that thing that is challenging them with
16:01that thing that causes us to be jarred
16:03awake with a cold sweat
16:05the thing that is weighing on us and
16:07worries us we are thinking about that
16:10issue never through the lens of are we a
16:13Democrat or Republican right and when we
16:17have that thought it usually relates to
16:19one of just a very few things our
16:21personal health the health of our
16:23children or our parents can we get a job
16:26can we keep a job can we pay the bills
16:28by the end of the month can we retire
16:29with dignity the vast majority of
16:32Americans these are the issues that wake
16:35them up at 3 o'clock in the morning and
16:36if we as leaders I think we're able to
16:40to really more fully appreciate that I
16:42mean we would have less dysfunction in
16:45terms of the partisanship that I think
16:48bogs down what could otherwise be smart
16:50public policy but so I've definitely
16:52been reaching out and and and it has
16:56been reciprocal with my now colleagues
16:59across the aisle a funny little story
17:01Lindsey Graham came up to me about a
17:05couple months ago and he came up to me
17:07you know he's a big deal in the Senate
17:10because of course the United States
17:11Senate is very steeped in tradition
17:12including seniority and I am the
17:14freshman and he is not and but he came
17:18up to me came across the room and he and
17:20he just looked at me he said you need to
17:24so Mike Oh looked at him and it was just
17:28one of those days and my response was
17:30why he said to me so I don't have to pay
17:38ma'am Oh fantastic fantastic and so we
17:46talking about what we can do in a
17:49bipartisan way to deal with immigration
17:53because one of the underlying points
17:55that he and I have discussed is you know
17:57this has been a big issue for me
17:58California has an outside stake in the
18:00outcome of this conversation we have
18:02more immigrants documented and
18:04undocumented than any state in the
18:05country and I strongly believe we have
18:08to not vilify this community and we need
18:11to pass comprehensive immigration reform
18:12we need to deal with h-1b visas we need
18:15to do all of that but what has occurred
18:17to me in the conversations I've been
18:18having with my now colleagues from
18:21around the country is there are a lot of
18:22them who just don't have the population
18:26that we have in California and so this
18:28topic of immigration and and and what we
18:31need to do around comprehensive
18:32immigration reform it is purely
18:34theoretical for a lot of them and and
18:38ideological because they that the folks
18:41we're talking about are not their
18:42neighbors or their co-workers or in
18:44school with their children and so what
18:46Lindsey Graham and I have talked about
18:48is he has indicated a willingness to
18:51pull together a group of Republicans
18:54from red states and because I'd like to
18:57host them in California mm-hmm to meet
19:00with our dreamers to meet with the folks
19:02who have the h-1b visas and understand
19:05in a you know in a real way who these
19:08populations are and what they are
19:10contributing and and to understand that
19:12they do not pose a threat to what are
19:15otherwise considered to be America's
19:17values or culture you know there's
19:19another divide that we've talked about
19:20of course it's still between Silicon
19:23Valley and Washington so based based on
19:25your time in the Senate so far what do
19:27you think that Washington can learn from
19:30Silicon Valley oh well I and vice and
19:33vice versa and is there anything Silicon
19:34Valley can learn from Washington sure
19:38so I mentioned I'm on homeland security
19:43and intelligence is to Senate committees
19:46and again as a career prosecutor I know
19:50that one of the biggest threats to any
19:53individual and in terms of a violation
19:56and national security threats a cyber
20:00and in order to understand the you know
20:04in order to combat that threat one must
20:06understand it and there is I think a lot
20:10of work that we still have to do in in
20:13creating a greater understanding and
20:14appreciation within you know these
20:17highest bodies of governance and then
20:20legislation around how technology works
20:23and how we can then when we understand
20:27it prevent the harm that concerns us but
20:30also approach it from a way that is not
20:32the traditional way of just only
20:34thinking about combating it but
20:36understanding specifically when we're
20:37talking about cybersecurity it's not
20:40only about prevention it's about
20:42detection you know and so building into
20:44the system and ability to detect the
20:47harm unity we've all read about that
20:49that it's all open source information
20:51I'm not sharing anything classified
20:53about the Russian hacking of the
20:55election of the president United States
20:57one of the big issues there is that is
20:59the detection issue right so there's the
21:02prevention the detection then there is
21:05also the point that is rarely discussed
21:07which is resilience after the attack has
21:11happened there should be equal weight in
21:14terms of public policy given to how can
21:16we regroup as quickly as possible
21:19because in particular if we're talking
21:21about the the attack being as it relates
21:24to our public grid electricity in
21:28hospitals we need to get back up and
21:31running as quickly as possible
21:32our financial structure we need to get
21:34up and running as quickly as possible
21:35store resilience and then the fourth
21:37piece is accountability how do we build
21:40into the system a way that and this is
21:41something we do naturally with the harm
21:43we'd always think about what will be the
21:45repercussions will be the punishment
21:46what will be accountability but I think
21:50there needs to be greater appreciation
21:51for all of those factors and give them
21:53at least equal weight and the in the
21:56industry technology industry as a whole
21:58it appreciates those points more than
22:00anyone and I think there's a lot of room
22:03for sharing that information but also
22:06sharing the knowledge about how
22:08technology works to actually accomplish
22:10each of those four pieces right in that
22:11and that as you said I mean that
22:13is an area that falls right squarely
22:14between law enforcement attorney-general
22:17and intelligence and homeland security
22:19and it's also you know I'll bring it up
22:21in the context of another issue that
22:23I've dealt with which is cyber
22:24exploitation so the press calls it
22:26revenge porn I really don't like that
22:28term for a number of reasons revenge
22:31suggests that there was something that
22:33was done that requires or at least
22:35justifies that response you know revenge
22:37and then porn you know this is not
22:40pornography and what I'm talking about
22:41is those cases that have been widely
22:43reported and those larger number of
22:46cases that have not been reported where
22:48the photograph of someone is shared
22:51publicly and usually 90% of them is the
22:53photograph of the woman in a sub Ekka
22:56consensual relationship in the context
22:58of that consensual relationship someone
23:00takes a selfie usually the woman of
23:02herself in a pose without any clothes on
23:06or some little bit of clothes on sends
23:08it to the person she's in a consensual
23:09relationship with one of the things that
23:12that everyone doesn't understand is that
23:1490% of those consensual relationships do
23:16not end in marriage and so it's probably
23:18not a good idea but it happens and no
23:20one should fault the person for doing it
23:22and so play it out relationship ends
23:26they breakup disgruntled former lover
23:29post the image on websites so I actually
23:34through my office through the AG's
23:36office prosecuted the first case the
23:38Bolar case it was the case where this
23:41fellow held up a head created a website
23:43you got posted and he would post these
23:47images at the request of the disgruntled
23:50ex-lover and when the women the vast
23:54majority again were women the victims
23:56would contact him and say please take
23:59that down and by the way they'd find out
24:00in all these awful ways like their
24:02friends would find out or there were a
24:04young women who were in graduate school
24:06and had graduated and going to get a job
24:08and they're in a job interview and
24:10they're being asked all these questions
24:10that they can't understand why it's
24:12being asked and they realize it's
24:14because the employer prospective
24:16employer saw the photograph right so
24:19these women then contact you that posted
24:21please take the thing down and no I'll
24:25do it only if you give me some money
24:26well that's called xtour
24:28so we prosecuted the case but through
24:31the course of dealing with that case it
24:32became apparent to me that there were a
24:34lot of gaps in our system in terms of
24:36how to deal with it there were gaps in
24:38our system in terms of the law because
24:40our laws on technology writ large are
24:44many of them are quite obsolete
24:46he just can't there is not a historical
24:50precedent for a lot of what technology
24:52has created and so in this case it was
24:55that there were not any laws really on
24:57the book about how you would prosecute
24:58that case in terms of creating
25:00responsibilities for those who post
25:02these images and notification and there
25:05were no laws on the books about how the
25:07host has a responsibility to take the
25:10image down when requested so what we did
25:13is we actually convened about 50 tech
25:16companies in my office in San Francisco
25:18national companies startups the whole
25:21gamut and brought them in then brought
25:24in police officers and victims to talk
25:25about how this was happening and how the
25:27industry could adapt to the the fact of
25:30this and take on some responsibility for
25:33helping to mitigate the harm and and
25:35hopefully even dissuade and deter the
25:39activity and we made huge progress again
25:42the point about convening right there
25:44was one fellow I won't name the tech
25:46company and he said calmly you know you
25:48want us to take it down but you know how
25:50many people want us to take an image
25:52down because you know she had a pimple
25:53on her face that day like we can't be in
25:55the business of just because somebody
25:58requests us taking down an image just
26:00taking it down and I said that's a very
26:01good point a legitimate point well part
26:04of what we have done classically is in a
26:07temporary restraining order if a
26:08domestic violence victim comes to a
26:10police department and says please make
26:12sure that he stays away from me
26:14case hasn't been litigated but what the
26:16court will do is say well if you have a
26:17police report that that legitimizes the
26:20the complaint that might be some
26:22evidence that that causes us to do what
26:24you want us to do long story short maybe
26:26not so sure with industry we came up
26:28with policies and right now I'm
26:30sponsoring co-sponsoring legislation to
26:32make cyber exploitation a crime a
26:34federal crime because we just need to
26:37deal with it well let's Harris thank you
26:40we could continue for
26:41longer thank you for spending time with
26:43us thank you for thinking about these
26:45tech issues in your new role bring the
26:47experience your previous role and I'd
26:49like us all to thank you for spending
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