00:00hi everyone welcome to day 6 and Z
00:02podcast I'm sonal and today we're
00:04building further on our podcast on emoji
00:06talking about stickers streaming and all
00:09sorts of interesting cultural memes in
00:11the digital world in China and beyond
00:13and joining us to have that conversation
00:15with us we have christina she her lessee
00:18misspelled Xu who is a tech at naga fur
00:20and previously has sort of been infamous
00:22for helping co-founder awful Khan which
00:24is a conference about internet culture
00:25in communities and then we also have
00:27Connie Chen who is our partner who
00:30covers all things China and who has
00:32written a number of pieces on China and
00:35has been arguing for a lot of the things
00:38that she and others like Christine are
00:39observing as a new form of social
00:41communication why would you make the
00:43argument that all of these things
00:44together add up to a new form of
00:46cultural communication maybe we should
00:48start by saying what are stickers let's
00:49just start there and we can take it to
00:50streaming and everything else there are
00:52graphics that don't denote just an
00:54emotion but oftentimes an action or a
00:57phrase and what I find in Asia is that
01:00you can have a long conversation where
01:02it's just people sending stickers back
01:04and forth in the West we've been so
01:06obsessed with the emojis for so long but
01:08that is in my mind very obviously going
01:10to transition to stickers quite soon
01:13because you can just convey so much more
01:15information in one single sticker versus
01:17an emoji I think that is sticker and
01:19emoji and all of these other media is a
01:22way to add nuance back in we used to
01:24hear the argument a lot that text only
01:26communication especially over email or
01:29text really stripped out all of these
01:31nuances of communication that you get
01:34face to face or some people would even
01:36argue over the phone although I disagree
01:37personally I find text-based
01:39communication better than the phone and
01:41some people think otherwise and I think
01:43it just is a matter of what you're used
01:44to so it'll be interesting to see what
01:47happens with this generation growing up
01:48what they're going to complain about
01:50I've missing from the context when
01:52they're they're so used to this
01:54rapid-fire kind of sticker sending mode
01:57I don't necessarily think of it as a new
01:59form of cultural communication but a way
02:00to supplement what we already have in a
02:03very playful and expressive way just to
02:06like make sure we're all on the same
02:07page about the term terminology and
02:08especially because in our past podcast
02:10an emoji which you know listeners who
02:12haven't heard it are welcome to go to
02:13our website and find it defining the
02:15taxonomy so we start with the emoticons
02:17which are basically punctuation marks
02:19which are used to represent the rural
02:20expressions then we have emojis which
02:23like punctuation marks can be put in
02:24subject lines and therefore have to go
02:26through the Unicode consortium to be
02:28approved and vetted and then on top of
02:29that we have stickers which are
02:31essentially gifs or images that in
02:34bitmoji is a type of sticker even though
02:37it's called emoji has emoji in it in
02:38that they're all just images and they
02:40cannot be put in subject lines for
02:42example but they do convey a lot of
02:44meaning they capture full-on phrases
02:46they capture full-on sentences right
02:48what's interesting is they all have in
02:49common this notion of nuance and
02:50ambiguity Connie you've shared with me
02:52that sometimes a single sticker can have
02:54like three very different meanings so
02:56for example like if a sticker is of one
02:59person hugging another person you can
03:01interpret that as a romantic hug you can
03:03interpret it as a friendly hug it's
03:05really up to the sender and receiver to
03:07kind of guess what that meaning is but
03:09that's also what makes it so much more
03:11personal than just normal text christina
03:15you wrote an interpretive a scenario
03:16piece for motherboard about china's mean
03:18culture starting with oh my god i'm
03:21gonna butcher this by bowing so the term
03:29is being and it's usually used as the
03:32phrase belching ball which sort of means
03:34like bag of belching and it's people
03:38talk about that in the same way that
03:39they talk about their reaction gift
03:41folders in the states so it's sort of
03:43like the place where you collect all of
03:45these custom sticker like things for
03:49your own personal use so that you can
03:51react to a wide variety of situations
03:53it's essentially your built-in folder of
03:56yeah exactly your custom sticker
03:58collection and why is that such a big
04:00deal I mean is it just sort of like I
04:01mean well there's a sense of pride
04:02oftentimes they're they're traded almost
04:05like pokemon cards so you can throw out
04:07a sticker to a conversation and if it's
04:09a really popular one other folks will
04:11save it too and use it in subsequent
04:12shots so there's a sense of pride with
04:14having the coolest sticker how did the
04:16mechanics of this work out though
04:18because you're locked into what stickers
04:20proprietary ecosystems where you have
04:23stickers on WeChat you have stickers on
04:24Weibo you have stickers on US apps the
04:27emoji which has now been acquired by
04:29snapchat like we have stickers
04:31everywhere in these different ecosystems
04:32and one of the arguments that we made
04:34about emoji is that because it sort of
04:35translates interoperable II you know
04:37unless of course like Apple and Twitter
04:39have their own proprietary emoji sets
04:41that's not necessarily true of sticker
04:43so how do you smooth this communication
04:44across all these different platforms and
04:46you have these custom folders yeah well
04:48at least on WeChat there is this ability
04:50to import any image from your photo
04:52album on your phone and make it into a
04:54sticker and they have these automatic
04:56functions that strip out the background
04:57to make it look as close to a sticker
05:00format as possible so you are able to
05:02actually import images and graphics from
05:05all over the web it's a for example a
05:07lot of the line characters which is
05:09include this very popular brown bear
05:11called brown and a cute little white
05:14a lot of those characters I've seen
05:15people convert those images into WeChat
05:18stickers and actually use it on the Wii
05:19chat platform so you can really take an
05:21image from anywhere so is that legal by
05:23the way though for them to do that I
05:24don't know about the brown and Kony ones
05:25but it's WeChat is sort of designed for
05:28you can have just your own uploaded gift
05:31so actually when my cousin had a baby
05:33I made her a little bit Ching of her
05:35baby as a present and a folder of like
05:39cute little stickers of her baby yeah
05:42and a lot of these messaging apps they
05:45have their own marketplaces so artists
05:47can upload different sticker packs they
05:49can get paid for them they can receive
05:51tips and rewards and there's a little
05:53bit of digital rights management on
05:55those sticker packs but I think on the
05:58whole Chinese app sort of tend towards
06:00openness so there they just make it
06:02pretty easy to download the actual naked
06:05gif file and then you can do whatever
06:06you want with that well talk to me more
06:08about this remix culture yeah so I was
06:10focusing on belching which I think like
06:12there's a very sticker like element to
06:15them but they're quite different from
06:16what we see in like snapchat or Facebook
06:18as stickers or even lying where there's
06:20like these custom-built sticker sets
06:22that all match and they're full of like
06:24your like decorations for photos yeah
06:26belching are like a little crappier they
06:29intentionally degrade it intentionally
06:31they're kind of more
06:33like rage faces if you remember that
06:34phenomenon from reddit a few years ago
06:36so they're these kind of like often very
06:39poorly photoshopped celebrity faces put
06:43on to in all kinds of contexts
06:46and what I found was that the vast
06:47majority of them were actually static
06:49images because it was easier for people
06:51to go in and change the caption the
06:53general format would be like a
06:55celebrity's face with like kind of an
06:57iconic expression so there's a South
07:00Korean actor who's got this incredible
07:02laughs his face gets photoshopped into
07:05all kinds of things almost in the same
07:07way that we use the sort of like crying
07:09but happy emoji though the face with
07:11tears of joy that looks like it's sad
07:13but it's actually really happy recognize
07:15I that you like this thing is so funny
07:16you were crying so that face gets used
07:20in a variety of context photoshopped
07:22onto these little cartoon bodies and
07:24then there's all of these captions that
07:25get updated with every new catchphrase
07:29you know if someone says something
07:30really goofy online will become a
07:32catchphrase in China and then call
07:34swimmer from the Olympics yeah yeah yeah
07:39that's a great example of a recent one
07:40so they're constantly making these new
07:43faces and updating the captions and so
07:46like people in particular fandoms so if
07:49you really like a band you might have a
07:53bow chin set that just matches that band
07:55or once you start getting into a TV show
07:57you would get a new set so it's this
07:59like I don't like moji but not with your
08:02own face but with a celebrity's face
08:04exactly or kind of this abstract face
08:06that everyone recognizes right and then
08:08it has a punch line to it too so it's
08:10not just you know a happy birthday and
08:12there's a cake there but there's an
08:13actual no line that goes with it there
08:16are so many interesting threads to pull
08:17on that one so just starting with first
08:19of all the question of why celebrities
08:21like what what does that give the person
08:23who's doing that like what does it
08:24provide them I kind of think that it
08:27there's this funny interplay right
08:29between like I want to show you that I'm
08:31expressing this emotion and so I'm going
08:35to show you this very exaggerated form
08:37of the emotion via this celebrity
08:40expressing that at sort of the peak it's
08:43the same way we use reaction gifts right
08:44where you see people using gift
08:46of like Nicki Minaj giving a side I like
08:50you can't give a side I as good as Nicki
08:52Minaj can you want to express that it's
08:54like a pure form the emotion but at the
08:57same time I think those faces and those
08:59expressions then become an emotion that
09:02you now have if that makes sense right
09:04so you're like I feel totally Nicki
09:06Minaj side I dot gif about this and so
09:09it actually shapes the way people talk
09:12to each other in a way and eventually it
09:14becomes codified in a really interesting
09:15way it just goes to show how genius Kim
09:18Kardashian is with her set of
09:20commodities because she's essentially
09:22providing people a way to easily do that
09:24in the u.s. yeah but what's also
09:26incredible about it is that I have the
09:28sense of a person as a single entity and
09:30then you can now take and literally
09:32disproportionately blow up any one
09:34element your eyebrows your facial
09:36expression your nose your sneezing your
09:38mouth your smile your laugh your sadness
09:40and essentially create this mosaic of
09:43different graphics that capture all
09:45these different elements and it's a
09:47distortion and a form of expression at
09:49the same time which is just incredibly
09:51fascinating it mean gives a whole new
09:53name to the traditional ideas of remix
09:55in the early days of digital remix thing
09:57we talked a lot about mashups where
09:58you'd have an overlay of one image or on
10:00top of another but it really takes
10:01things to a new level I would emphasize
10:03though the punchline is really critical
10:05because often times is the same image
10:07being used across a large wide range of
10:10different reactions it's that one
10:12sentence that goes above the image can
10:14you give me some examples we've had some
10:16that were really popular one that was an
10:18image pulled out of like a Star Trek
10:19Estela graphic yeah Picard looking
10:22disappointed in filming yeah or one oh
10:24yeah Ming smiling really happy there's
10:27one of Barack Obama that's really
10:28popular so in the West we have the same
10:30thing I think it was really popular on
10:33sites like Reddit or sites like nightly
10:35yeah so in China there's one of I'm like
10:40fascinated by which ones become part of
10:43the pantheon you know so there's one of
10:44this American wrestler named Elijah
10:47Burke and that gif was very popular on
10:49the American internet but it really took
10:51off as a range as a belching face in
10:54China and it's he's kind of like looking
10:57camera sideways and if that one gets
11:00used to caption a bunch of different
11:03emotions some of it it's like kind of
11:04challenging but some of it is there's
11:08like a very common thread to a lot of
11:09the belching where people just use them
11:11to accuse other people of being a poser
11:14so there's like a wide variety of ones
11:17where people are just sort of saying in
11:19all different ways like you're being a
11:21poser let's go be posers together you're
11:24posing work you're posing didn't work
11:25you know people somehow co-opted it into
11:27that use it took off into that youth and
11:29now we've been reinforced over and over
11:31again I suppose our face even though
11:33that's probably not at all with that
11:34star intended or Express yeah it's just
11:37been appropriated into in rarely new
11:39ways right you know it's funny we talk
11:40so much about cultural appropriation in
11:42certain directions and it's kind of
11:43funny to see it happening in a different
11:45direction sometimes as we have more of
11:47these multi-layered forms of
11:48communication the discussions around
11:49cultural appropriation will become even
11:51more complex I think the issue at hand
11:53for me is whenever there's a power
11:55differential between entities then that
11:56appropriation isn't necessarily
11:58appropriate but I don't know I mean
11:59there could be all kinds of debates
12:00around that so even on that point the
12:03sticker phenomenon in Asia is not just
12:05being used among friends it's being used
12:08in the workplace you can send a sticker
12:10to your boss you can send a sticker to a
12:12managing director you can stand a
12:13sticker to a founder or CEO you see it
12:16as slack right people like oh yeah it's
12:19a slack so slack is professionalizing it
12:21the way that it happens in China or is
12:23it similar or different what you say how
12:24the phenomena is playing out I think in
12:26a lot of ways in China that was kind of
12:29already the case like the work-life
12:31boundaries seem a lot more porous there
12:34I think it obviously depends on the
12:36organization but in a lot of ways like I
12:38saw a lot of you know people people's
12:41bosses sending them voice messages on
12:44WeChat you know and that that's single
12:46very very that's very very common so
12:48that's not even whereas here we might
12:50like think twice about you know can your
12:52boss text you when you're not at work in
12:55China that's not even a thing right but
12:57yeah in in the US I think is where we're
12:59seeing the professionalization of a lot
13:01of or these these memes infiltrate the
13:04professional workspaces I love it
13:06because it's fun it kind of brings this
13:09personal feel to any
13:11you have with someone in the workforce
13:13and then so it is a self-reinforcing
13:15thing and as it goes into one work
13:17culture it can just continue to grow how
13:20about generationally because I'm
13:21comparing not having been exposed to
13:23this firsthand what you guys described
13:25I'm comparing it to whatsapp and what
13:27happens at my cousins and relatives in
13:28India and it's really both funny and
13:31to see multiple generations from
13:34grandparents to to parents to kids to
13:36really young kids all sharing these gifs
13:40and sorry Christina I'm not gonna fight
13:42with you on the pronunciation but you
13:49know I see them chained exchanging these
13:51same type of graphics and they change
13:52the caption or a punch line to your
13:53point connie and it's kind of funny to
13:56see how differently they do it so in the
13:58case of my you know some of the
13:59grandparents they'll put like gujarati
14:00characters which is our family's
14:01language or it'll be like a prey or
14:04sentiment and one and then like a total
14:06shopping sentiment in the other it's
14:07just very very bizarre matter kind of
14:10cool mashup of time as well yeah how
14:13does it play out generationally in China
14:14I have an extensive collection of great
14:18grandma memes memes on WeChat which is
14:23the stuff that my aunties and you know
14:25my grandma sends over WeChat and I love
14:28them because they're very they're like
14:31they're almost like Hallmark cards a lot
14:33of them are around the holidays they
14:35glitter you know and like you can post
14:39from MySpace like yeah exact in 2001
14:422005 the sparkling glittering was a
14:45dream of icing live and we Charlie photo
14:48manipulated like still images that
14:51they've turned into an animation it
14:53looks a little bizarre but it's I find
14:55it really endearing but I think what's
14:57really remarkable about all of that is
15:00in China you really have this kind of
15:02leapfrogging where all the generations
15:04are on not not just online in a way that
15:07you don't really see here as much but on
15:10the same platform right the WeChat is so
15:12dominant that literally everyone you
15:14know is on it and so you get all of this
15:17interplay of everyone playing in the
15:19same ecosystem but in different spaces
15:22within that ecosystem um
15:24they develop all kinds of things on
15:27their own that are really fascinating
15:29mm-hmm I know you have a history of
15:30studying online communities as well you
15:33reference rage faces earlier which were
15:35popular and read it a few years ago yeah
15:37so rage faces were basically there was a
15:39subreddit for rage comics but it was
15:42basically like I don't even know how to
15:44really describe them I guess like the
15:47same thing as bell change they're taking
15:49like specific expressions of celebrities
15:53so there's like a very iconic one of
15:55Jackie Chan looking confused they turn
15:58that into like very simple black and
15:59white line art and then it gets used to
16:02say used to like make comics where you
16:04would talk about a situation as you go
16:08through your day and that the punchline
16:10would kind of be like that expression
16:11and so it became kind of a universal
16:13language for emotions which is really
16:17interesting is it because you could
16:19create a whole comic where you know the
16:21faces are changing very very radically
16:24every frame but you can kind of follow
16:27the story of the characters because you
16:29understand the emotional journey they're
16:31going through it's fascinating and it
16:32reminds me a lot of why snapchat filters
16:35took off so much in the u.s. because
16:36there's sort of this layering again this
16:39distortion of your face where you can
16:41now add on and layer on other people's
16:43expressions or some other filter whether
16:45it's a bear nose or whatever it is to
16:48create new forms of expression
16:50how do filters play out in China so
16:52popular filters have been popular long
16:55before snapchat filters came about and
16:57the first instances I think we're
16:59actually in the photo booths in Japan
17:01mm-hmm pretty cool how do you spell that
17:03PU RI k ura I think that's right yeah
17:12they still exist in Japan right now
17:14where you would go in and take your
17:16photo for a couple minutes you would run
17:17outside right away because you have a
17:19short couple of minutes where you can
17:20decorate and punctuate every single
17:22photo with graphics like fake bows or
17:25put glasses on yourself or sparkles and
17:28you can write words well over ten years
17:30ago and back then you could already see
17:32some of those photo booths not just in
17:34Asia but here in the Bay Area mm-hmm
17:37so you're saying that this meme culture
17:39building off on something that actually
17:40already existed physically in some ways
17:42the filter culture that the filter
17:44culture of like decorating your image
17:46and kind of distorting what you're
17:48wearing what you look like was already
17:50very popular through these physical
17:51photo booths and as the photo booths
17:53evolved even even many many years ago
17:56they already had to solve our technology
17:58that would either smooth out your skin
18:00or make your eyes bigger or do whatever
18:02it was that you wanted to change how you
18:04looked what age do you think it's
18:06tapping into this desire for filters and
18:08this reception people have two filters I
18:10mean I'm just trying to get behind why
18:11they're you they've taken off here
18:12without having as much pervasiveness of
18:14the boutique or a boots I think it's
18:16partially playfulness when you have the
18:18dog years or whatever in snapchat like
18:20that's mostly about playfulness but part
18:23of it is also just its its Photoshop
18:25culture for your own face right if
18:27you're gonna post a selfie it might as
18:28well look good and so as the technology
18:30gets more and more advanced for that it
18:32it becomes a form of digital makeup that
18:35you if you're good at filters it can be
18:37almost as good as being good at makeup
18:39yes I mean in that sense I think that
18:41the remix culture has been become more
18:43democratized now because in the past you
18:45know if you wanted to remix two things
18:46you had to be proficient in Photoshop or
18:49some other tool and now you have like
18:50endless tools online and as you know
18:52there's automation that happens like AI
18:54that lets people now map it onto the
18:56points of your face in the computer
18:58vision set so there's definitely
18:59something that makes it easier and the
19:01beautification side con unite swap apps
19:03all the time because I'm like so
19:05obsessed apply your makeup and do all
19:09this other crap and it's insane like
19:11what was driving that I mean part of it
19:14is the selfie culture right you always
19:15want to put your best foot forward and
19:17so these beautiful patients are really
19:19ugly though for the record yes but for a
19:22lot of people they want apps where even
19:24though they might have a filter that
19:26makes them look ugly it's almost done as
19:28if you can tell that the person behind
19:30it still looks good yeah and so a lot of
19:32these beautification apps like these one
19:35one-click makeup applications like my -
19:37it's me - me - it may - has a whole army
19:40of applications one of them that's in
19:42English that's called makeup plus where
19:43you can literally with just one click
19:45apply your entire makeup and on to your
19:48eyebrows your eyeliner your eye
19:49Oh your hair it'll change your eye color
19:52if you want you can do a face slimming
19:54all kinds of things and a lot of the new
19:56phones for example like the hallway p9
19:58it has these beautification tools built
20:00right into the camera
20:01so you can train it to know a particular
20:03face and say I always want my face
20:05Slim's by this amount well because your
20:07camera on your smartphone is essentially
20:09yeah and it's your training it to know
20:11your face that whenever you're taking a
20:13photo of yourself it'll apply the exact
20:15same amount of skin smoothing the exact
20:17same amount of face slimming and so
20:18forth and then all your photos look
20:20beautiful I have to ask this because we
20:22talked about this as well on our emoji
20:23podcast how do real life social dynamics
20:25play out in these apps one of the things
20:27that I've noticed for example in India
20:29is a lot of women would be really into
20:30like face lightening creams you know or
20:33other sort of things is is predominant
20:35only among women do men use it to you
20:36have manicure say about the demographics
20:39and the socio-cultural aspects of it men
20:40definitely use that but it is majority
20:43woman I believe and there are definitely
20:46cultural and they wants us there for
20:47example a lot of the Asian apps will
20:49make your skin look whiter
20:51because whitening of skin is really
20:53popular there but if you look at how
20:54it's impacted society some things I'm
20:57really fascinated about for example
20:58include how it plays generationally and
21:01I've heard stories where there's folks
21:03know where there are parents who are in
21:04their 60s or 70s when they travel they
21:07take so many more selfies because
21:09they're happy with how they look and if
21:11you think about those kinds of stories
21:12it's wonderful that these apps are
21:14encouraging people to take more images
21:16and capture more memories yeah I mean I
21:19think you know like any technology they
21:21codify especially consumer-facing
21:24technology they codify the sort of norms
21:26that we have circulating I love that
21:28some of the apps will actually make you
21:30taller in photos which has a very tall
21:34asian yeah I don't need really
21:40addressing people's natural real life
21:42yeah in a way that you know it
21:45reinforces things that aren't always
21:47positive but like Connie said I think
21:50people use it for a variety of different
21:52reasons and in different ways what are
21:54some of the new and unexpected things
21:55that are happening only digitally that
21:57you never saw online I mean in real life
21:59a lot of people make your digital
22:00dualism argument that you can't really
22:01separate the in real life
22:02and digital and while I agree with a lot
22:04of that the reality is that you can do
22:06things in the virtual environment that
22:08you can never do in the physical a
22:09perfect example of this is you know you
22:11can Pat an avatar on the head of someone
22:15your colleagues with but you would
22:17probably never do that to them in person
22:18oh yeah like we mentioned earlier our
22:21faces you would not say in person you
22:23would not even write out in text form
22:25but in sticker form it's more okay right
22:29exactly so like I mean it's very
22:30liberating in a certain sense and it's
22:31again allowing the sort of uncoupling of
22:33your physical presence what would you
22:36say are some of the unexpected or
22:37surprising things you've seen people do
22:38I think in general you know exactly what
22:41Connie said you see people being a lot
22:43more playful and free and informal my
22:46french rochelle wong who's also I know
22:49she's done this incredible work about
22:52elastic selves and how basically Chinese
22:55youth are sometimes more open with total
22:58strangers on the internet than they are
22:59with their close friends and family
23:00because there aren't consequences there
23:02right and so they're they're more
23:03willing to like experiment with their
23:05identity or they're more willing to
23:06share secrets and ask difficult awkward
23:09questions with total total strangers on
23:11the internet and all of that kind of
23:13manifests in different cultural ways I
23:16think you know for one clear example is
23:19that um LGBT dating apps are much much
23:22more prevalent digitally than they are
23:24in person or like equivalent services in
23:26person because of cultural constraints
23:28yeah I think because like people may not
23:30feel comfortable going to actual gay
23:32clubs but you know it's not a big deal
23:34to download an app and go on and and
23:36click around talk to people and things
23:38like that and so from that kind of
23:40foundation you'll see new types of
23:43yeah and through stickers um like what
23:46you mentioned earlier I do think there's
23:48moments where even within your close
23:50family you might use stickers to express
23:52things you wouldn't normally say to your
23:54parents yeah - your siblings like there
23:56are very many I love you stickers yeah
23:58both online on WeChat on a number of
24:01these apps and it's easier to send that
24:03kind of sticker to your mom and dad
24:04whereas you might feel more awkward or
24:06uncomfortable saying it in person I love
24:08that example because just on a personal
24:10note my dad also Asian there's a sort of
24:13conservatism between fathers and
24:15and how you express yourself you know I
24:16know my dad loves us but he's not the
24:18type to actually say I love you right
24:20overtly and the day he learned how to
24:22use text messaging he still didn't
24:24really know how to use ticker stickers
24:25and Joe's he does now communicate in a
24:29completely different way in text message
24:31that he would never communicate in
24:33person right and it's probably one of my
24:35most gratifying things to see and I
24:36think that a lot of people take this for
24:38granted because they're not necessarily
24:39from cultures that are like that we sort
24:42of see that this actually allows a
24:43different kind of behavior because again
24:45we're making a lot of sweeping
24:46generalizations here but in general when
24:48you think of the US there's a certain
24:49openness and freedom of speech that is
24:52taken for granted that's not common in a
24:54lot of different cultures and so it is
24:55kind of fascinating see how these things
24:57play out yeah I love looking at how
24:58group chats work within families in Asia
25:01and that's completely changed how people
25:03can stay in touch with each other
25:04especially for example even in China a
25:08lot of the parents don't always live in
25:10the same city as the kids even when the
25:12kids are young but also when the kids
25:13are older and using these group chats
25:16within WeChat allows people to stay in
25:18close touch with each other and give
25:20people regular updates and share
25:21articles and people are just so much
25:24closer as a result yeah it's kind of
25:25nice that you can have this sort of
25:27ambient social feeling without you know
25:30if you're gonna call someone you have to
25:32actually have a conversation you have to
25:34have things to say but what group chat
25:36allows you is for you can just keep
25:37sending stickers back and forth to each
25:39other you can never say a thing right
25:40but feel like you're in constant contact
25:42with people it's asynchronous you're not
25:44compelled to respond right then and
25:46there it's asymmetric it's okay if you
25:48have like one person who does 50 texts
25:50and you only do one back you don't have
25:52to reciprocate and kind
25:53and equally and like you cite us it's
25:55private exactly I do agree with you that
25:57I think there's a real fascinating
25:59subculture and family group chats to
26:01mine here so you know speaking of this
26:03idea of people expressing themselves in
26:05ways that they would not necessarily in
26:07person one thing that comes to mind is
26:10in your recent post on live streaming
26:11trends in China economy and one of the
26:13things that's really interesting is
26:15quotes from people who they would never
26:17actually be public speaking or on camera
26:21necessarily in their physical life but
26:22somehow feel liberated to do so in live
26:25streams so what's driving the live
26:26streaming phenomenon
26:28well live-streaming is a huge phenomenon
26:29in China right now it really took off
26:31and to be clear it's public not private
26:33broadcasting yes public broadcasting and
26:36a lot of it took off right after meerkat
26:38was launched in the US and South by
26:40Southwest and in 2015 and after that
26:43basically a bunch of Chinese developers
26:46decided that they could also build their
26:47own apps and what they all found very
26:49quickly was that in these mobile live
26:52streaming apps you might run into the
26:53issue which meerkat did run into which
26:56is not having enough constant content
26:58what the Chinese developers did was they
27:00added digital gifts to these streams the
27:03digital gift is really one way of
27:04expressing this interaction between
27:06viewer and broadcaster and the
27:07interaction is the fundamental piece of
27:09China mobile life streaming and it's
27:11because there's interaction that these
27:12apps can monetize so easily so for
27:14example if you are a broadcaster and you
27:18don't necessarily have musical talent or
27:19anything but you are willing to engage
27:21with strangers and just be really
27:23conversational people can start speaking
27:25with you and in writing you questions
27:27and they might play an online game of
27:29truth or dare they might ask you to do
27:31certain things like write their name on
27:33the board or or cut your hair or do all
27:36kinds of weird zany things and in order
27:39to encourage you to do that they'll send
27:40you digital gifts the broadcaster
27:42actually receives a financial pail from
27:45each of these gifts through this app
27:47platform and so for a lot of these
27:48broadcasters it's also a way to make
27:50money and that gives them enough
27:51incentive to constantly go back to these
27:53platforms and just stream very
27:56frequently and for very long periods of
27:58time and from the viewers perspective
27:59they get all kinds of benefits from
28:02having the social interaction and just
28:03to be clear you're seeing gifts as in
28:06digital sticker digital stickers yes and
28:09those are generally just like the
28:11stickers we've been talking about all
28:12along they could be any type of sticker
28:13yes usually it's more of like a graphic
28:17of a car or beer or a teddy bear or
28:19heart so in flowers just mostly [ __ ] way
28:23back in the day you could send that's
28:29part of my question this interaction
28:30that you described which is a key
28:32component that's making mobile live
28:34streaming as entertainment take off in
28:36China is largely enabled by this culture
28:41which we don't really have in place here
28:42so what do you think is making the
28:45digital gift culture in the first place
28:46work I think it's also partially because
28:48it's so built on top of it's it's
28:51basically like the live streaming apps
28:53there are built on top of dating apps
28:55more or less right or like they go hand
28:57in hand with that and so there's a lot
28:58of flirtation and with flirtation the
29:01gifts make sense whereas I think our
29:03live streaming culture kind of more
29:04comes from like games right so we have
29:06twitch and that's really the big the
29:08first like major player and so you it
29:11you get a lot of the same phenomenon
29:12right it's people willing to do things
29:14online and talking with their audience
29:17but not not quite the same level but the
29:18gifting I'd say the way what Facebook
29:20gifting did versus what all these live
29:22streaming apps the main difference is
29:24one is instant and it's part of the
29:26conversation as opposed to one is kind
29:29of I'm watching or I'm admiring you and
29:31I'm kind of tipping you and giving you
29:33this gift to the so it's like in that
29:34interactive right in the moment reminds
29:36me of reinforcement learning where you
29:38can have like you know instant
29:39reinforcement like Pavlov's dog the dog
29:41ears the wit Bell of whistle for food he
29:43immediately salivates and they're sort
29:44of this instant reaction reinforcement
29:46that's happening through these stickers
29:47that mean yeah instant interaction the
29:49that makes the curse work there's like
29:52live streaming apps where you can stream
29:53concerts of like Korean boy bands which
29:55are huge in China and all over Asia and
29:58one of them which was a big boy was that
30:00one of the big bang big bang yeah yeah
30:03you could stream a Big Bang concert and
30:05what you can do as a fan who's not there
30:07is you can give them a certain amount of
30:09money and they'll actually like light up
30:11a physical candle on the venue for you
30:14and so you like in some way have like
30:17sent your presents to be at this concert
30:20remotely even though you're not there
30:21and there's like something really nice
30:23as a fan of knowing that like in some
30:26tiny tiny tiny way you know the can see
30:31just a little bit more of like actual
30:33physical support from you I thought that
30:34was so smart but there's another nuance
30:36here still something different I think
30:37than gain than even gaming and dating
30:41one of the key points in the piece that
30:42we recently posted is about the fact
30:45that it's shifting the focus from the
30:46outward facing camera to the inward
30:48facing camera and what that means and so
30:51it's essentially like selfie live
30:52streaming in a lot of ways as annex
30:54of selfie streaming so what's happening
30:56differently now in that evolution like
30:59Oh again that goes back to the
31:01interaction it's basically all the
31:03broadcaster's acting like talk-show
31:05hosts or acting like Raleigh TV TV and
31:08it's much less about where they are and
31:10what they're looking at and much more
31:11about what they're thinking what they're
31:13saying and what they're doing what if
31:14you have nothing interesting to say
31:15because the biggest complaint people had
31:17about Twitter in the early days is that
31:18it really optimizes for people who have
31:21a lot to share ideas to share not the
31:24interaction so for example if you sent
31:26me a gift I would say thank you sonal
31:28and I would call out your name and from
31:30that you would receive gratification
31:32alone and you might ask me a question
31:34the fact that I choose to acknowledge it
31:36and answer you receive more catification
31:38so the interaction you're saying it sort
31:39of makes up for that asymmetric
31:41following that happens because in
31:43Twitter's case you know you pay you have
31:45this pressure to actually say something
31:46it's a lot of people would lurk and not
31:48actually communicate and add things and
31:50be the interaction was more
31:52eavesdropping than it was really like
31:53sort of participating you do see a
31:55really long tail right like there are
31:57some people who have like hundreds of
31:59thousands millions of followers and some
32:01people who are live-streaming and no
32:02one's watching them because there's this
32:04whole group of broadcasters that are
32:05actually really good at engaging with
32:07other folks that didn't have a platform
32:09before right to kind of really go in
32:11they weren't necessarily dancers or
32:13singers right in the same way that
32:14YouTube stars couldn't have been talk
32:16show hosts but became very successful
32:18YouTube stars because they know a
32:19different way of engaging like there's a
32:21whole group of people who can be
32:23charismatic and who can engage with
32:26other folks and create these games like
32:28okay let's go play a truth or dare game
32:29now whoever gives me the most gifts in
32:31the next 30 seconds I'm gonna take your
32:33question first see I think that's a key
32:35point because this about engaging a
32:36different way because when I think of
32:37YouTube stars I think of cases where
32:39they may not have had traditional
32:40talents like singing or dancing but they
32:42had talents like makeup artists injury
32:44like how to do a makeup tutorial which
32:45is super popular and YouTube obviously
32:47and my absolute favorite genre to watch
32:49on YouTube but this is literally the
32:51case of people which is early hanging
32:52out unplanned streams which is just
32:54crazy to me think of it as the video
32:56format of AOL chat rooms back in the 90s
32:59right and so and if you think of it with
33:02that lens that really helps you
33:03understand the psychology behind it say
33:05for example you're a person who doesn't
33:07but you go on this platform and
33:09instantly you have a bunch of people who
33:10are watching you you feel popular and
33:12you feel more willing to talk to other
33:14folks and you feel like you can find a
33:15community at any time of the day all
33:17right and also I mean again not to
33:19overly generalize but you know China is
33:21a cult has a culture where conviviality
33:24is like so baked into our needs as
33:28Chinese people right so if you have to
33:30eat dinner by yourself every night
33:32that's just something that you don't
33:33grow up doing and it feels wrong and so
33:37at some point you might you know take
33:39comfort in eating your own but you're
33:42watching an intimacy to a whole new
33:46level I mean you maybe I met Connie that
33:48it's like a solve for loneliness I think
33:50that's totally right I shouldn't caveat
33:52it just like what Christina saying there
33:53is a very long tail you could just be
33:55sitting there kind of doing your own
33:56thing so I guess you know not every
33:58single broadcaster has to be incredibly
34:01charismatic as long as you aren't
34:02ignoring your viewers and you still
34:04interact with them in some form I think
34:07that's what makes the broadcasters do
34:08yeah Christina tell us a little bit more
34:10about the what you wrote about on the
34:12live streaming of eating behaviour like
34:14this yeah so I wrote a piece on lucky
34:16peaches I talked to a lot of people in
34:18China who are showing me their favorite
34:19you know I was hoping they would show me
34:21like great internet memes and they were
34:23just showing me videos of people eating
34:25very very mundane just literally someone
34:28putting food into their mouth and you
34:31know a little part of it was this sort
34:32of like gastrin yin the same reason why
34:34we watch cooking shows right like you
34:36were watching someone eat something
34:37really delicious that you wish you were
34:38eating a lot of the people I talked to
34:40were younger people who lived far away
34:41from their families for work and they
34:43kind of just missed that feeling of like
34:45sitting around and talking with people
34:47around a table for hours at a time and
34:50so I I was really moved by a lot of the
34:52comments that you would see which were
34:54these commenters kind of almost
34:56performing familial relationships by
35:00being like oh you look tired today are
35:02you okay you know okay you shouldn't
35:07work so hard and you know sometimes
35:09these were people who knew each other
35:10but sometimes it was just really this
35:12like sense of I want to to connect to
35:16people in a way and I think that touches
35:18upon a point that's absolutely critical
35:20for live streaming apps to
35:21which is a new tools so for example
35:23broadcasters if there's ever a
35:24misbehaving viewer they can block them
35:27permanently and they also give those
35:28rights to their top fans to help police
35:31the viewing community I'm glad you
35:33brought that up because my mind
35:34immediately went to the trolled 'm that
35:36typically happens in any open platform
35:38but the difference here and i have to
35:39ask that this is partly a cultural thing
35:41due to being located in china is there
35:43just a lot more clamping down or group
35:46monitoring of behavior like behavior
35:48censoring because of the fact that it's
35:50expected there is it just that they're
35:52better tools so a lot of these apps they
35:54have teams of hundreds of people who are
35:57watching these streams live at the same
35:58time and if they think something's
36:00inappropriate that's happening they'll
36:01stop it immediately and what about some
36:03of the more subversive behaviors that
36:05can take place because of course the
36:06Chinese government monitoring these more
36:08closely and and watching them for
36:09subversive behavior so example that
36:11comes to mind this meme of women in
36:14China seductively eating bananas on live
36:17streams first place be that it caught on
36:24and then everybody started doing it and
36:26see like that the Chinese government is
36:28essentially cottoned onto it and said
36:29stop tell me more about that I think it
36:31shows that because live-streaming is
36:34becoming so popular the content is being
36:36regulated almost as if it was actual
36:38television or if it was a video that was
36:40showing on Youku or tutto or another big
36:43video platform with the Chinese internet
36:45you constantly get this like
36:47cat-and-mouse game and like everyone
36:49knows that that's what it is where
36:50people are making things in a very
36:53playful way and trying to push the
36:54envelope and it's sort of like willing
36:56to try whatever they want until they
36:59notice the clamping down happens and
37:00then they move somewhere else I often
37:02hear narratives about the Chinese
37:04internet as a very fearful place and at
37:07least experientially it doesn't I mean
37:09if you are an activist sure there are
37:11like clear boundaries you have to kind
37:12of dance around but as an everyday user
37:15you know the there's a lot of roasting
37:18including of the government there's a
37:20lot of playfulness and and server cygnus
37:23there is a lot of trolling actually
37:25trolling is a huge huge problem which is
37:27it everywhere as it is everywhere but
37:29yeah I think the difference is that the
37:30platforms are just willing to cut down
37:32on it if we think our legal system is
37:34this stuff you know these things are
37:36moving so fast in China there's no way
37:38that they've been able to pass laws fast
37:40enough so the companies have really had
37:42to move in to do the work it reinforces
37:44yet another interesting theme that comes
37:46up a lot as company is a regulator
37:48mm-hmm you think about Google banning
37:50certain things or the power of Facebook
37:51to include or not include things and so
37:54on I mean all these platforms that
37:55become many governments and of
37:57okay so then to wrap up let's talk about
37:59some of the technologies behind a lot of
38:00this we've talked already about
38:03that's a theme that comes up a lot in
38:04developing countries where their
38:06infrastructure is essentially
38:07they're skipping a PC and going straight
38:09to mobile the second phenomena obviously
38:11is connectivity and bandwidth and
38:12there's obviously other technologies
38:14like automation and AI and that are
38:16enabling these things to take off
38:17something kind of more mundane that I'd
38:19love to talk to both of you guys about
38:20is the role of QR codes kind of you've
38:22written about it in the context of
38:24WeChat and Kristina use actually talked
38:26about a funny tumbler which you should
38:27tell us about yeah there used to be this
38:29great joke tumblr called pictures of
38:31people scanning QR codes tumblr comm and
38:33you would go there and there were no
38:35posts and that was the whole joke right
38:36that that in the u.s. no one did it and
38:39so when I went to started going to China
38:41a lot you're like the joke's on you now
38:43I know I was like they're everywhere my
38:45favorite example I collect pictures of
38:47them my favorite example is a shop that
38:49sold bamboo wares actually wove one out
38:51of bamboo actually cue our physical QR
38:55code oh yeah out of like different
38:58ambu it was yeah it worked I tried it so
39:00what would common all over Asia not just
39:03China yeah I mean Japan all kinds of
39:04other places waiting QR codes because
39:06that is a key factor as well not
39:08necessarily only for stickers and
39:09communications but this interactivity
39:11between physical and digital and offline
39:13and on the good as like a shortcut to
39:15doing something whether it's going to a
39:17website or adding someone as a friend or
39:19very soon installing a new application
39:22in that sense if you if you think back
39:24to when Facebook first launched official
39:27pages or when Twitter had official
39:28accounts you would see on commercials
39:31and on billboards follow us at
39:32facebook.com slash write XYZ same thing
39:35for their Twitter handle and so forth so
39:36a QR code is kind of like that except
39:38it's a much more efficient way of
39:40getting the action done yeah so one of
39:43my hypotheses was that the internet
39:45infrastructure is in English URLs are in
39:48Roman characters that don't really
39:50correspond to Chinese and so a lot of
39:52even like large Chinese companies will
39:54have URLs that basically look like FXY
39:58JJJ calm or dass en slash you know some
40:01other string of pinyin which is the way
40:03that you transliterate Chinese
40:05characters into Roman characters and
40:07that's just so counterintuitive for a
40:10lot of people that scanning a QR code is
40:12way easier whereas the pitch here was
40:14like you can either type in facebook.com
40:15or you can scan this bizarre-looking
40:18thing and so for us there wasn't that
40:21much of a value-add but in China there
40:23actually was because remembering these
40:25complicated URLs was was bizarre QR
40:28codes were very popular in Asia ten plus
40:31years ago so I think part of it is also
40:34they just got to that solution first I
40:37mean but it's interesting to me that
40:39like we got to the solution here but we
40:41didn't like it right it was kind of like
40:43up until very recently with snapchat I
40:45would say sort of like one of the first
40:47examples of QR codes messengers travel
40:51and so a couple of changes so I mean I
40:54definitely see there's something and
40:55what you're saying about the friction
40:56and amount of the barriers to entry to
40:58be able to quickly and engage with the
40:59QR code versus a text URL given the
41:02cultural language differences and then
41:04there's also that messaging is taking
41:06off because you're now communicating on
41:07this mobile platform and that really
41:08enables this online to offline
41:10snappiness that you couldn't do before
41:12QR codes are used to enable services as
41:16well so for example you can go to a cafe
41:18and you can scan a QR code and get
41:20internet access and then in return you
41:23are following that cafes official
41:24account and they can therefore ping you
41:26with coupons or things afterwards but it
41:29can trigger things beyond going to a
41:31site or beyond adding a particular
41:33person so in that sense it's a
41:34replacement for email because currently
41:36what we would do here is you go to a
41:38coffee shop you'd sign up for get the
41:40Wi-Fi and maybe drop your name and a pen
41:42and paper on the counter top to sign up
41:44for their weekly updates or whatever
41:46coupons they might give you is another
41:48cultural element here that email is not
41:49as popular and widely used email it's
41:51not as popular I think one of the other
41:54things that is a major contributing
41:56factor is that we didn't really ever get
41:58to a point in the US until maybe
42:01everyone knew exactly how to scan a QR
42:04code on their phones here I think I see
42:06both filled up we don't we don't have
42:09apps that have QR codes built into them
42:11you know that that wasn't really a thing
42:13until very very recently whereas in
42:15China because everyone has WeChat many
42:18people have Weibo many people have these
42:19other apps it was like basically you
42:22knew that your phone had a QR code
42:23scanner in it you knew how to use it the
42:25cafe example that Connie talked about
42:27it's enabled because everyone is on
42:29WeChat and right so I'm like you're not
42:31just like giving someone your email is
42:34like a very loose point of contact but
42:37it's it's almost as if Facebook or our
42:39operating system and you could just use
42:42which QR codes within that context to
42:46create these direct connections whereas
42:48here I still have to download a separate
42:50multiple separate QR readers because not
42:52all of them work exactly an accurate
42:54code to URL like QR code going to a
42:56random website is actually not as
42:58compelling or interesting as I QR code
43:01to we are enough friends and even on the
43:04the friending component of WeChat if
43:06we're in a group setting at a party for
43:08example rather than me having to scan
43:10ten people's QR codes we can all just
43:13open a different area of adding contacts
43:15press down our buttons and then
43:18everyone's names will show up and we can
43:20add it each other almost instantly so
43:22they're pushing the envelope on QR codes
43:25well speaking of envelope and no pun
43:27intended because you meant it in a very
43:28different sense let's talk briefly about
43:29red envelopes I mean that's something
43:31that started as a natural cultural meme
43:33where you would have Chinese New Year's
43:35red envelopes and paper red envelopes
43:36with money in them both of you have
43:38talked about how they've become a thing
43:40to make messaging apps like Ali pay and
43:42whatnot really take off the big thing
43:44there is they turned it into this game
43:46where if I am sending a red envelope to
43:49a group of people there's kind of this
43:51lottery mechanism where you can assign
43:53random amounts of money to the people
43:55who are collecting it and you can also
43:57say if I'm sending a red envelope to ten
43:59people that only three people are
44:00eligible to receive it so there's this
44:02race to kind of claim one of the three
44:04envelopes and this game mechanic has
44:07become so popular in China that it's
44:10used for not just the Chinese newer
44:12holiday but for all kinds of moments for
44:15a new group chat or you you just joined
44:17a new company and say there's a group of
44:19employees you might send a red envelope
44:22to a big group of people and kind of
44:23this is my welcome welcome gift to
44:27everyone hmmm but what I really love
44:28about is that all mobile payments are
44:30kind of referred to as red envelopes so
44:32like I've purchased very like large
44:35purchases using the red envelope feature
44:37and we chat on what I really love about
44:39it I think in addition to the gaming
44:41part which is like really brilliantly
44:43designed there's also like a shaking
44:45part right like it depending on what
44:47type of red envelope it is some of them
44:49require you to like shake the really
44:50hard to shake at the TV sometimes the
44:52color you see everyone doing it I have
44:55like all these vines of traffic cops all
44:58ignoring their jobs but what I think is
45:03so brilliant about it is it took
45:05something that here you know we kind of
45:07had to onboard people on in are still
45:09onboarding people on which is mobile
45:10payments peer-to-peer mobile payments
45:12and there they just so brilliantly kind
45:14of grafted it on to this cultural
45:17phenomenon that already exists to people
45:22exact like we know what that is and we
45:24know how to use it and now this thing
45:26that would have seemed very alien and
45:28unsafe and actually somebody at which
45:30had told me that when they tried rolling
45:33out mobile payments between people and
45:35stores people are very distrustful of
45:37you know why would I send you my payment
45:40information on my cell phone that seems
45:42so hackable as soon as they repackaged
45:44it as the the home bottle red envelope
45:46phenomenon people were like oh that's
45:48the thing I have to do with my family
45:49right and so the onboarding yeah Chinese
45:51New Year was just ridiculous clearly
45:54newspaper backing or you're saying
45:55grafted onto an existing cultural meme
45:57the part that I find most fascinating
45:58about this is the network effects
46:00component of it because we don't have an
46:02equivalent like that in the u.s. really
46:04that sort of universal that everyone
46:07does automatically and so there's a lot
46:09of tricks that platforms have to use in
46:12order to bootstrap these network effects
46:14you have to find all these growth hacks
46:16as people say in the jargon and in China
46:18they sort of a built-in cultural meme
46:20around the world there are more of these
46:22existing cultural means that people can
46:23sort of piggyback on the red envelopes
46:25is a is a massive enabler for payment
46:27information and for group
46:29but even aside from that we shot also
46:30did have hats there was a period of time
46:33where if you were hailing a taxi a DD
46:35car through WeChat it was discounted so
46:38they definitely invested in kind of
46:40hacking that growth as well you're
46:41saying it's not just an accident like
46:43they so it's actually a combination what
46:44you're saying together that they grafted
46:47it onto an existing mean but they also
46:49had to intentionally which is what we
46:50talk about when we talk about network
46:52effects they have to intentionally do a
46:53number of things in order to continue
46:55growing and now in that Network
46:56essentially revolve well you guys I
46:58think we can talk for hours about a
47:00cultural tour of memes in China but
47:03that's all we have time for thank you
47:04for joining the a 6nz podcast thank you
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