00:00hi and welcome to the a 16z podcast this
00:03conversation is all about the future of
00:05food from countering the limits of
00:07seasonality and global transport to
00:09rethinking about our species dependence
00:11on meat to optimizing nutrition
00:13including redefining what we think food
00:16really is recorded at our 2017 summit
00:19event the conversation includes bryan
00:21crowley president of Soylent sushma Garg
00:24founder and CEO of gobble david lee CEO
00:27and CFO of impossible foods and james
00:30rogers co-founder and CEO of appeal
00:32sciences and was moderated by a 16z
00:34partner kim milosevic we all have strong
00:38opinions about food and food has taken a
00:41long journey over time it's gone from
00:43coming straight from the farmed
00:45industrial air were packaged in
00:47processed foods to a trend back towards
00:50organic and now we're seeing a new food
00:53revolution why are we all of a sudden
00:55starting to see like this new kind of
00:57revolution and food starting I think
01:00it's information that's what is driving
01:02it just the availability and the amass
01:05of quantities of information out there
01:07I'd say that's one I think to the
01:10sustainability movement has drove quite
01:12a bit of what we've seen in terms of the
01:15impact of the food ecosystem on the
01:17planet had been the other and I think
01:20just our quest for longer healthier
01:22lives which I don't think is any
01:23different than it was a hundred years
01:25ago when we're building companies you
01:28could have an incredible idea but timing
01:29is everything and so I think the timing
01:31here is overwhelmingly now and we're
01:34writing you know multiple big waves one
01:36of them is just food TV
01:38you know the burst of food shows chef
01:41shows competitions etc and our industry
01:43is bar none and people are taking an
01:45interest and they want to be hobbyist
01:47cooks then there's just access to
01:49information like you said of in every
01:51industry kind of the democratization of
01:53knowledge and information allowing
01:56people to question CPG and ask what's in
01:58this food and lastly I think that Whole
02:01Foods talks about how when they've tried
02:04to market in favor of the farmer it
02:06didn't work or sustainability or local
02:08and only when they said organic is
02:10healthy for you food is about you
02:13when people started caring so this
02:15society getting more individualistic and
02:18food being aligned with identity in you
02:20is also causing this moment well why
02:23didn't happen before versus why is it
02:25happening now it's because there wasn't
02:27any innovation the consumer demand for
02:29healthier products for products that
02:31they can feel good about is persistent
02:32that is not new what's new is the
02:35ability to serve them well the truth is
02:38the way food trends are set now in the
02:40US are set by a different generation the
02:43Millennial is the largest consumer in my
02:45business of ground beef but they're also
02:47the ones that are setting trends and the
02:49way they're setting them is not the way
02:50many of us mass marketers serve them so
02:53for the first time I'm seeing
02:54across-the-board technology in food not
02:58just in the delivery of it but also in
03:01the food itself and I think that's
03:03what's prompting the change now there
03:05are now solutions I think the answer is
03:07that now we must you know we're gonna
03:10add a couple billion more people to this
03:11planet in the next thirty years and
03:13along with that we're not gonna get
03:16another rocket load of more arable land
03:18and more fresh water and you know if we
03:22look at the amount of food production
03:24that's gonna be required to feed this
03:27we're simply need to address this issue
03:31and now's the time and we look at this
03:33and look at the amount of produce that
03:36we're growing on this planet that
03:37ultimately ends up in a landfill there's
03:40been so much increase in farming
03:42efficiency from an increase in yields
03:44but because of that increase in farming
03:46yields we have not been addressing this
03:48issue of food waste and food loss and so
03:52we believe that the way forward for us
03:54is to better utilize the natural
03:57resources that were already using to
03:59produce food so you talk about natural
04:01resources but in fact we're actually
04:02innovating quite a bit on the actual
04:04ingredients of food and James you know
04:07you came from not a food background
04:08actually but material sciences yeah when
04:11I called my mom to tell her about the
04:13company that I was considering starting
04:15she said you know sweetie that sounds
04:16really nice but you don't know anything
04:17about fresh fruits and vegetables and
04:19that was totally correct but I was aware
04:22that there was a problem and we've
04:25developed a way to use food
04:26to preserve other food and so we use
04:29natural plant materials to create an
04:32invisible peel then we apply to the
04:35outside of fresh produce and by
04:37constructing this peel in the
04:39appropriate way from these food
04:40materials were able to develop an
04:42optimal living environment inside of
04:44each individual piece of produce and the
04:47result is that we're able to
04:48dramatically extend the shelf life of
04:50that produce without relying on the
04:52traditional forms of chemical techniques
04:54and refrigeration that are used today
04:57and the core of this is really going
04:59down to the fundamental building blocks
05:02which compose all food and relying on
05:05those materials rather than chemicals
05:07that we've derived in some laboratory
05:09and relying on those building blocks
05:10which Nature has provided to reconstruct
05:13this edible and visible peel Soylent you
05:15guys have also experimented quite a bit
05:17with all kinds of new ingredients I
05:19think one of the big things is plant
05:21basis I mean we're very very focused on
05:23on plant base so a is one of the more
05:25sustainable crops there is but we think
05:28there's actually better out there the
05:30next big thing is fungi is actually
05:32mushroom we're putting a lot of research
05:34and and investment dollars into high-end
05:36partnerships in terms of how do we
05:38actually find that next sustainable
05:40protein source so that we can actually
05:43again have less impact on the
05:44environment Soylent is ambient 12 months
05:47shelf life when you're in the food
05:49business if it doesn't taste good and
05:50it's not convenient like we're just
05:52talking to ourselves so I think we're
05:54gonna keep pushing the envelope I came
05:56from kombucha probiotic company prior
05:59the technology that's happening on the
06:01fermentation side is pretty amazing
06:03technology is really enabling us to
06:05actually get the ingredients that we
06:07need in the most sustainable way that we
06:09can get them so talking about new
06:11ingredients I know at Appeal what you
06:13guys are trying to do is have this
06:14imperceptible layer that we're not even
06:16gonna detect but davidandem possible
06:18foods you guys have actually created
06:20like a whole new type of agar and you
06:23smoke all of this is impacting how we
06:24consume food and just the taste of food
06:26David are you just trying to essentially
06:28replicate exactly that burger experience
06:31in a new way animal farming produces
06:34more greenhouse gases than almost any
06:36sector the same as all forms of
06:38transportation combined period
06:40our approach is to introduce the same
06:42things that people crave today it turns
06:45out that there's this thing and a burger
06:47from a cow that is the only thing that's
06:48going to make a meat-eater like a burger
06:50we found it naturally occurring in a
06:52plant that no one had seen before that
06:54we discover that's actually natural
06:56kurung and everything it's the only
06:58thing that acts as a catalyst to create
06:59these thousands of aromas and molecules
07:01period so we don't color our food our
07:05food is the same color in the same taste
07:07for the same molecule that's in a burger
07:09from a cow our focus is on making back
07:11ingredient in a far more efficient way
07:14and in the same way that Belgian beers
07:17made or most industrial cheeses are made
07:19we use fermentation three-quarters of
07:22the people eat our product or
07:23meat-eaters every time a meat-eater
07:24picks our burger versus a burger from a
07:26cow they say 95% of the land they save
07:2974 percent of the water they produce 1/8
07:32of the greenhouse gases for the
07:34alternative we know empirically tested
07:37blind versus a cow whereas delicious to
07:38a meat-eater mm-hmm our approach is just
07:40to produce the same craveability and in
07:43some cases the same very molecule and
07:45ingredient in a much more efficient way
07:47so a you've talked about sort of
07:49distilling these different flavors and
07:51tell us a little bit about what your
07:53approach is there so gobble-gobble
07:55attacks two distinct areas kind of in
07:57this big food space one of them is diet
08:01so here we're talking about folks that
08:02make ingredients and you know food
08:05that's sustainable or affordable for the
08:06world but our thesis is that it's not a
08:09one-size-fits-all and even for each
08:12individual person there are many
08:14different ways that you consume food and
08:16many different kinds of food that you
08:17want to consume some of them might be on
08:19the go and attendee here was saying
08:20two-thirds of their diet is and recent
08:23funded and that they use Soylent for
08:25breakfast and lunch and gobble for
08:27dinner every day and that was really
08:29neat to hear because you might want to
08:31put people in buckets and say well
08:32either someone is doing this or they're
08:33doing that but actually you find that
08:35you know people eat Doritos or feed
08:37their kids you know the Dino nuggets and
08:39then they also really care about organic
08:41lunches or other dinners and so on
08:43long term we think about what is best
08:46for you to eat based on your genetics
08:49your age your background your taste
08:53we try to personalize food in the same
08:55way that Spotify has developed a
08:57fingerprint for music we want to own
08:59that fingerprint or that kind of taste
09:01map for every meal in your entire life
09:04and then we work on the experience we
09:06focus on the experience at home in a
09:09world where people are so individual
09:11most of the day every day so you're
09:14talking about more just like bringing
09:16the food that we all know and love like
09:18to our table and then you know some of
09:20the rest of you guys are talking about
09:22kind of reinventing what food is exactly
09:24I mean there seems to be this divide
09:26between these kind of science-based
09:28approach and these more traditional kind
09:30of organic approaches how do we really
09:32like solve for that divide again because
09:36of the nine point seven billion number
09:38that we all know is out there by 2050
09:40there are multiple ways to to get at it
09:43but we do need to actually attack it in
09:45a big way the GMO debate is one that's
09:48really interesting and really important
09:50that we got to have more of it because
09:52organic and non GMO is just not
09:55sustainable it's not sustainable
09:57globally it's not even sustainable in
09:59the richest country in the world when
10:01you think about the masses and what
10:03they're going through living check to
10:04check the science is gonna actually help
10:07us get there we gotta follow the science
10:09and we have to follow the data and if we
10:12do that then that'll help us get there
10:14but it's gonna be a tough week we've
10:16been genetically engineering foods for
10:18the last ten thousand years it's just
10:20not through the approaches that you know
10:22people consider to be well that's GMO if
10:24it's done in a laboratory but if we're
10:26just doing crossbreeding experiments in
10:27the field then that's not you know
10:30genetic engineering that we just
10:31consider that crossbreeding and but
10:33we've been doing that for the last ten
10:34food is an emotional experience is not
10:37like enterprise software and so the
10:40reality is I absolutely agree if 40% of
10:43the ice-free land today is used in the
10:45production of animal farming population
10:47growth is massive so we have no choice
10:48but to be innovative but we also have no
10:51choice but to meet the consumer where
10:53they are the consumer doesn't know what
10:54GMO is there is massive confusion and
10:57arguably those of us who have been
10:59enlarged few companies contributed to it
11:01the way I think all of us are trying to
11:03do it though starts with something
11:05consumers haven't seen Radek
11:07Transparency you know the Millenial
11:08actually deeply cares much more what's
11:10in their food where it comes from what
11:12it says about themselves when I'm asked
11:14about GMO I like to say to those
11:16Millennials being anti GMO is a bit like
11:18being anti science are you anti the GMO
11:21that contributed to the roundup you know
11:23pesticide resistant or friendly crop is
11:26that the same thing with the Belgian
11:29beer you're drinking but we also
11:30shouldn't say that GMO is the end-all
11:33be-all it's an intermediate solution
11:34right it's not the optimal solution
11:37there are some negative consequences
11:39from GMOs to the environment because of
11:41methods of farming that they allow us to
11:44utilize and so there are alternative
11:47solutions to this to go back to your
11:48point listen I try to deliver customers
11:51something that they've never seen before
11:53let's deliver them something that they
11:54already want let's just get it to them
11:56in a better safer more cost-effective
11:59way and we see this in the industry all
12:00the time you know people complain about
12:02their you know their poor tasting
12:04tomatoes and the reason that this is so
12:06ubiquitous that you know no one's had a
12:08great tomato unless they've picked it
12:09out of their backyard is that
12:10industrially in order to make it to you
12:13for consumption those tomatoes are
12:15harvested prematurely they're harvested
12:17at a color stage 3 or when they're green
12:18and then they're shipped to where
12:20they're going to be consumed or
12:21processed in many situations and the
12:23result is you get the physiological
12:26characteristics of a ripened piece of
12:27fruit but because it's been disconnected
12:29from the factory which are the leaves of
12:31the plant and it's just the storage
12:32vesicle you end up with flavor profiles
12:34and nutrient densities that are 1/3 or
12:361/2 in some situations what they could
12:38be otherwise what we're doing is by
12:41reducing the perishability that produce
12:42we're allowing the growers to optimize
12:45their harvest decisions for quality and
12:47freshness of that produce apply our
12:50products and then put it into the same
12:52supply chain so the result for the
12:54consumer is a better tasting more
12:56nutritious longer-lasting piece of fresh
12:58produce the problem in like just in our
13:00society broadly even outside of food and
13:02especially in food is that everyone
13:04wants a one word or a one label answer
13:06and they just want to know that you know
13:08organic is good GMO is bad paleo is good
13:11keto is good or whatever it is using you
13:14know all of the content platforms that
13:16are so easy for us now to use and to
13:18reach our constituents
13:20to help them understand some of the
13:22nuance here is mission critical
13:24achieving anything and so not only do we
13:27have to educate but we also have to
13:29combat this somewhat uniquely American
13:32and growing mentality that everything is
13:34in either this or that I wanted to kind
13:38of shift gears a little bit so as we
13:39talk about innovation across the board
13:40especially as it affects physical things
13:42like food what is the regulatory
13:44environment like listen when you're
13:46trying to change should have known about
13:49it and we should have been having these
13:52conversations so shame on us and we're
13:54fixing that but we're planning to launch
13:57in the UK next year and you can imagine
13:58the product development we have to do
14:01for a pro-gmo pro-science company to get
14:04into the UK where it all started so I
14:06think the regulatory it's as important
14:09that you're working that angle because
14:11we have to partner with them right they
14:13can't be the enemy you know I have to
14:15partner with them to figure this out
14:17because we're all trying to do the right
14:19thing they want they're well-intentioned
14:20right yeah but it's their job to be the
14:23laggard and the tail because their job
14:26is is to protect consumers for the same
14:28reasons that we're discussing we need to
14:30help educate consumers about what the
14:31new alternatives are at the same time we
14:33need to be helping to educate the
14:35regulatory side and what's coming why
14:38this is so important but that's a
14:39challenge and so really it's very
14:41difficult I believe for companies to get
14:44into the food space because of the
14:46massive amount of overhead that's
14:47required in order to install things like
14:49current good manufacturing practices you
14:51know food regulatory programs within the
14:54company all of these things that prevent
14:56people from actually getting products
14:58into the market but once you do
15:00understand that space then it can be
15:03very productive because you're provided
15:05almost a framework in which to work and
15:07how to have those conversations with
15:09those regulators I really like
15:11regulatory forces at work in food and
15:13let me tell you why when you look at it
15:14globally when you look at China when you
15:17look at Singapore and the impact of how
15:20China is the surgeons in Southeast Asia
15:23like it is a dynamic potential force for
15:26great good we tend to view those of us
15:29here in the US and those of us who spend
15:31time in tech in particular as viewing
15:34a lot of people with the hubris of
15:35disrupting a new industry tend to view
15:38the regulator's as the foe
15:39listen animal farming in my case is
15:42arguably the most well-funded lobbying
15:45organization in the United States much
15:47bigger than the NRA by far you have to
15:50partner with industry you have to have
15:53the best lobbying group on your payroll
15:55as a young pre-revenue start if you want
15:58to compete and once you build those
16:01allies and you speak their language and
16:03you you fight their fights with the same
16:05kind of armament to the point raised
16:08once you cross over there is a world of
16:11benefit you know people talk about heavy
16:13capex but heavy capex once you're fully
16:16advertising the fixed costs become you
16:18just print money and there's a similar
16:20analogy to getting through and
16:22partnering you know we've been generally
16:23recognized as safe as 2014 we just filed
16:26in over a thousand page FDA you know
16:28filing that we are now publishing to the
16:31world it's been years of effort but I'd
16:34like to think we're very close now to
16:36having the gold standard that many food
16:38companies don't seek because I know
16:40we're gonna be attacked by a very large
16:42lobbying organization maybe you guys
16:43could just give one sentence each on
16:45kind of where you think the future of
16:47food is going so in ten years kind of
16:49where you hope it's gonna go or maybe
16:50where you fear it might go either way
16:52can I just say a frank silent no just
16:56kidding listen I think it's gonna be
16:59it's gonna be a long journey I I do
17:01think science and technology are gonna
17:02lead the way that's what brought me here
17:04and I think we're gonna actually start
17:05steering our focus to the masses versus
17:08the one-percenters and that's what I'm
17:10most worried about most of the
17:11investment in private equity and the
17:14food and beverage space is going to
17:16initiatives that only benefit the
17:17one-percenters and that's what I'm
17:19hoping for for the next ten years that
17:21that shift happens I think so on the one
17:24hand we're seeing a shift to direct a
17:26consumer so people are expecting things
17:29at home and everyone's used to
17:30subscriptions and Amazon and so on and
17:32so forth so that's affecting convenience
17:34retail corner takeout etc so down the
17:37line I see experiences let's say like a
17:40movie theater outside and then things
17:43like renting movies or you know
17:45commodities inside so we're bringing
17:48to your home but we think that people
17:49will still go out for fine dining mm-hmm
17:51I also think that now people are taking
17:54IVs or you know pills and all different
17:57kinds of things I think someone
17:59mentioned body hacking a bit earlier so
18:01I see all of that happening and growing
18:04but at the same time I also think that
18:07people's desire to connect over food and
18:09have a family and a sense of family at
18:11the dinner table won't change people
18:13still have to eat food and they will
18:16still want to eat broccoli for example
18:18so it's a really neat industry because
18:21it has tons of innovation as well as a
18:24ton of tradition at the same time pop
18:26around my founder said one day little
18:29kids will look at their parents shocked
18:31and horrified and say I cannot believe
18:33you all used to eat meat meat of dead
18:36animals my greatest fear is that we
18:40solve the math of the food issue which
18:42is immense and the emotional connection
18:45that people have to food is lost because
18:47we started too late we didn't apply
18:49technology earlier enough and you know a
18:52future draconian world where we're all
18:54just eating supplements to stay alive is
18:56my fear I think we're going to see the
18:58evolution and development deployment of
19:00an entirely new food supply chain which
19:03unlocks trillions of dollars in value
19:06improves the quality of the produce that
19:09we're growing reduces or it eliminates
19:12this whole idea of seasonality of
19:14produce eliminates this whole idea of
19:17shrink on retail shelves and results in
19:19a consumer experience with fresh produce
19:21that we haven't had since we were
19:23growing in the backyards thanks
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