00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast i'm michael
00:02copeland and we are here in front of
00:04Elliott Bay in Seattle Washington at the
00:06Zillow headquarters this is another
00:09segment in our in our boards series with
00:12us to help talk about all things boards
00:14private and public our Donald four
00:16former chairman and CEO of drugstore
00:18comm she sits on the boards today of AOL
00:22real networks and coupons.com has been
00:26on a lot of other boards including eBay
00:28and Walmart also joining us is Emmy
00:30butinsky CMO of the Zillow group here in
00:33Seattle and she is our host she sits on
00:35two private boards hotels tonight and
00:38although and our final guest today is
00:40Michelle Wilson she's a longtime SVP at
00:43Amazon and general counsel and sits on
00:46the board of a Zen desk down in the Bay
00:48Area welcome to you all thank you
00:51so let's talk about boards and I want to
00:53start with the sort of difference
00:55between private boards and public first
00:57off let me just back way up why do it
01:00why did you choose to join aboard the
01:04first time out Don maybe let's start
01:06with you so I spent 20 21 years at
01:09Charles Schwab and I felt that since I
01:12was growing up inside the company I
01:13needed to get some just learned some
01:17things outside of the people that I
01:18interacted with every day I wanted to
01:20learn about new industries I wanted
01:22interactions with other people
01:23especially CEOs you just learn a
01:25tremendous amount and I that was part of
01:27my own kind of development so I worked
01:29really hard it took a long time I
01:31networked for a long time got on my
01:33first public board and probably about
01:351997 1998 and it's just been an
01:38incredible just an incredible experience
01:41and when I when I was considered for the
01:44drugstore.com job I really felt like I
01:47had learned so much from watching other
01:48CEOs and I was able to apply that in
01:51when I went into the drugstore a job so
01:53it I think it's tremendous for
01:55development for your career for getting
01:57perspective for learning by watching
01:58other CEOs I just think it's it's a
02:00tremendous experience Amy and Michelle
02:02want you guys answer this - I know you
02:05know the obvious thing from the board
02:07side is that look I want ambien Michelle
02:08my board because I know what I can get
02:12when you're thinking about your first
02:13board seat and Amy let's let's start
02:16with you what not to be too crass but
02:19what's in it for you
02:20it's a great question because a couple
02:22years ago I had mentors of mine starting
02:25to say you really should start looking
02:26at but boards and other than the resume
02:29builder my first question was why right
02:32and if I'm gonna take time outside of my
02:34demanding day job what is in it for me
02:38what I heard and what I've learned is
02:41that it's it's tremendous learning on
02:44how other companies are operated and as
02:47Don said how other CEOs not just run
02:49their companies but communicate to the
02:51board I've been at Zillow almost 10
02:53years now my executive experience has
02:57been with the same team for the last 10
02:59years and the same board and just what
03:02I've learned in just the last year since
03:04joining these two boards has I think
03:06really made me a much better executive a
03:10much better communicator and has sort of
03:12opened me up to other styles of
03:15management other styles of operating a
03:19company that I didn't have exposure to
03:20before then and let me just probably bit
03:23on the unlined a question of when folks
03:25came to you and said look you know Amy
03:26you really should consider joining a
03:28board where were you in your career and
03:30then and why do you think they started
03:32you know applying pressure if that's the
03:34right word so I'm a chief marketing
03:37officer all of my career has been in the
03:40marketing field but I've been lucky
03:42enough to be able to be a part of Zillow
03:44as we've grown it from nothing to a you
03:46know 2000 plus person company so I've
03:49had some operational experience in that
03:51it's a time in my career where I need
03:53more of that right where I need to start
03:54thinking what does my career look like
03:56the next decade and do I take that
03:59outside of the marketing realm and how
04:00would I do that so for me it was it's a
04:02pretty critical learning period to
04:04understand as an executive how do I
04:06branch out beyond just sort of my area
04:09of expertise well I agree with what
04:11Donna Namie said it's just a huge
04:13development opportunity and learning
04:15opportunity but the other thing for me
04:17is I really like building things and
04:19helping to build things I find it super
04:22on board is just a really highly
04:25leveraged way to use your time and help
04:27some younger companies and help
04:28contribute in ways and bring experiences
04:30that maybe the management team can't one
04:33one of the things that's interesting
04:34that's a theme if you're if you grow up
04:36in a functional area I was CIO of Schwab
04:39I grew up in technology I think it's a
04:41wonderful way to broaden yourself I mean
04:42it's hard to break out of your
04:43functional area and become a more
04:45general executive and being on a board
04:47is a great way to do it so that's that's
04:49one thing and the second thing is that I
04:51do think it's a great way to give back
04:53if you've had great mentors along the
04:55way as you said it's just wonderful to
04:57give back and help another company does
05:00it have to be let's talk about public
05:01versus private boards for a minute here
05:03how do you view the differences between
05:06private and public boards and is there
05:07any kind of reason to think that if this
05:10is my first board I should be aiming for
05:12a public because that's more public or
05:14you know private is the way to go do you
05:16have opinions on that so what what I
05:19would say is they are different and if
05:23you want to be on public boards you need
05:26to get your first public board now that
05:27can be by going on a private board that
05:29goes public but if you really want to be
05:31on public boards a long term at some
05:33point you need to be on a public board
05:34because they are different you need that
05:36experience you know in my experience the
05:38private boards they're smaller usually
05:40they're many times you're helping the
05:43CEO scale or you're helping the company
05:45scale private public boards usually
05:47they've already scaled and they're
05:49really looking at maybe taking it to the
05:50next level there's a little more
05:52governance on a public board than
05:54private board although private boards
05:55are getting more focused on governance
05:56because it's a healthy way to run a
05:58company just to be prepared for what
06:01happens when you go public so they are I
06:03have found the private boards a little
06:05more informal than the public boards the
06:07public boards are a little more
06:09structured with process although that
06:11barry's - based on the board so I don't
06:13think one is better than the other I
06:15think they're both great experiences and
06:17I don't know what you guys think yeah I
06:18so I would the last couple of years I
06:20was actively looking for board
06:21opportunities and was telling people
06:23within my network that and I had a
06:24number come to me and some were public
06:26and somewhere private ultimately I made
06:29my decisions based on connection with
06:33the the CEO and the rest of the board
06:36what I felt I could learn from the
06:38opportunity and what I felt I could
06:40offer to the existing mix of people and
06:43I personally tried not to kind of sway
06:45public or private but just find what I
06:47thought would be the right fit for me if
06:49I'm going to spend these hours outside
06:51of my day job where would it be
06:53fulfilling and where do I think I could
06:55learn something to take my career to
06:57another level Michelle you were on
06:59Zendesk when it was private and now it's
07:01gone public so you must have a sort of
07:03very interesting perspective and I don't
07:05know like when that happened to they're
07:06like okay now we need to revamp the
07:08board I mean certainly some investors
07:10will fall off typically when when the
07:14but what has your experience been at
07:15Zendesk in that transition well just in
07:18general putting aside Zen to us for a
07:20minute companies do tend to transition
07:22their board around the time they go
07:23public hopefully a year or two so the
07:25directors can get up to speed they need
07:27to add independent directors they're a
07:29bunch of regulatory requirements you
07:30have to have three independent people an
07:31audit a couple of people on other
07:33committees so you really do have this
07:35need for independent directors for the
07:37beyond that companies are such a wide
07:40range when you have a huge range of
07:42private companies from you know a little
07:44tiny to people startups to very mature
07:46private companies that could be public
07:49similarly with public companies you have
07:51companies they're just public you know
07:53all the way to the very biggest
07:54companies in the world and the processes
07:56and experience I think is very different
07:58Zendesk is it my favorite stage which is
08:00the growth stage and it was fun to work
08:02with the company as it was putting in
08:04all of the the mechanics of being a
08:07public company and you know at the same
08:09time it was good Union to grow the
08:11business Michelle let's focus on your
08:13experience right now for a little bit
08:15you are a general counsel presumably
08:18you're a lawyer so what role do you play
08:21on the Zendesk board and how do you kind
08:24of see you know if we're thinking about
08:25there are slots on boards
08:28what are those slots and and how do they
08:30get filled yeah to speak about me in
08:34particular so I think of myself as a
08:36business person first in a lawyer second
08:38at this point I've been doing it for so
08:40long and had such a broad role at Amazon
08:43for so long across so many different
08:44businesses that in the context of a
08:46board meeting I'm in our
08:47taking in a business role you know
08:49sometimes I'll see a small legal issue
08:51or something and then and raise it or
08:54address it but it really is a broad
08:56broad business role and said this has a
08:58great general counsel too so there's
09:00really not a lot for me to do on the
09:01legal side and I think again part of we
09:04talked about this already but part of
09:05being on a board is really broadening
09:07yourself beyond whatever that basic
09:09functional area is and getting that
09:11broader experience and contributing in a
09:12broader way there's no slots like I
09:14don't think of slots right and act to
09:16your point you're you can't be a one
09:18topic board member that just doesn't
09:20work and you're not contributing to the
09:22board so I think every company is
09:24different and you've probably found that
09:26with Zendesk right I mean some need
09:27different skill sets but it's not a slot
09:29for a lawyer a slot for a technician a
09:31slot for a marketing person I don't
09:33think very many boards operate that way
09:35so I mean it sounds like the message is
09:37you need to you come in with your sort
09:39of own personal expertise broad or
09:40narrow or otherwise but you need to be
09:42willing to kind of jump in and think
09:45broadly about all sorts of things
09:47absolutely and even for there are some
09:49spots like public companies boarding you
09:51need to have a financial expert but even
09:53that financial expert needs to be able
09:55to contribute very broadly across all
09:57issues right Amy you are on your first
10:00two boards what what's been surprising
10:04as a board member so you've presented to
10:06you know hundreds of board meetings I'm
10:08sure from the other side now that you're
10:10on a board what's been surprising to you
10:13well I it's been interesting certainly
10:16to see and learn the different ways that
10:18various CEOs communicate with our board
10:21and the different ways that boards spend
10:22the time together comparing that to
10:25Zillow's board which I'm very familiar
10:26with and these two there are some of
10:29them that the entire time is spent
10:32giving an update on the business and
10:34then there's very little time at the end
10:36for the board to actually give feedback
10:38and talk about bigger issues there are
10:41some that materials are set in advance
10:44we read it all and then we spend the
10:45whole time talking about big-picture
10:48issues and I think I've learned a lot
10:49about what works best in in board
10:52meetings and I've been able to give
10:54feedback to the CEOs at the boards that
10:57I'm on so that's been really I think
10:59interesting and enlightening
11:00to me but also the various roles that
11:03different board members play on one of
11:06the boards I'm the first independent
11:08director and a person who's an operator
11:11today in a room full of VCS so I think
11:13there's a an interesting juxtaposition
11:15and in everybody has a different
11:18and that's been something that's been
11:19you know really interesting to learn as
11:21well Don you have the most experience
11:23around this boardroom table what are
11:26some of the obstacles that you think
11:28first-time board members or maybe not
11:31even first-time an experienced board
11:32members face and and what do you need to
11:34be prepared to sort of get through and
11:36maybe it's finding your own board
11:39presence and personality or you think
11:42you know what you're doing and maybe you
11:44do but maybe you don't you don't really
11:45first of all every board is different as
11:47everybody has said and so you have to
11:48figure out what's the culture of the
11:50board one of the norms of the board it's
11:52interesting when I was interviewing for
11:54the Walmart board somebody asked me the
11:56best question I've ever been asked in an
11:57interview and I actually use it they
11:59said do you have enough self-confidence
12:00to not talk and I thought it was a very
12:04wonderful question because a board
12:05meetings can go awry if somebody wants
12:08to hear themselves talk and so you need
12:10to know that you don't always have to
12:12say something so I think that's and and
12:15I always tell people when they're new on
12:16a board do a lot of listening I mean do
12:18a lot of listening although once again
12:21on my Walmart board the first board
12:22meeting I listened I took lots of notes
12:25and we got to the end of the meeting and
12:27the Chairman said okay now it's time for
12:28each board member to spend ten minutes
12:31talking about their perspective and I
12:33thought oh my god I'm free
12:36thankfully I'd taken a lot of notes but
12:38so you have to be prepared when somebody
12:40calls on you as well but it's it's like
12:42starting a job you have to treat it like
12:44starting a job it's important is that
12:47one of the things like take a lot of
12:48notes I mean is that we were talking
12:50about the other day about minutes and
12:51how important those are but I mean are
12:53there are certain things that really
12:55help you be a better board member if you
12:58don't know the business for me I like to
13:01learn about the business and it helps me
13:03stay focused and learn about the
13:05business everybody's different and you
13:07know boards are different in terms of
13:09how much note-taking they want or don't
13:10want and how the materials are presented
13:12every board is a little different but so
13:14depends on how you learn and how you
13:15engage actually I think one thing that's
13:17been a learning process for me is for
13:19both the boards I'm on as a CMO I could
13:24jump in and say here's how you should
13:27run in these areas of marketing but as a
13:29board member I'm gonna be much more
13:31effective if I just ask questions and
13:33listen and that was something when I've
13:35joined both boards I wasn't quite sure
13:38at the beginning what role I should play
13:40and it's something I've learned right
13:42ask the questions connect them with
13:45people empower them to figure out the
13:47right solutions for them but don't jump
13:48in and tell them how to do it right
13:50because it's your job to be CMO for the
13:52Zillow group but it's not your job to be
13:53CMO for these abilities interesting
13:56Michelle what works for you so I think
13:59you need to be super super passionate
14:02about the company the people and its
14:04products and I think you need to do your
14:06homework between meetings like if
14:08there's a product you better be using it
14:10and understand that it's a product you
14:11communities you better be losing
14:13competitors products you'd better be
14:15reading everything about that company
14:16you'd better be reading everything about
14:18competitors if you have questions you
14:20need to be you know talking to
14:22management about it you just you can't
14:24really do it I think at the meetings you
14:26need you can't you have to pursue in the
14:28meetings obviously but so much of it is
14:29just what you do between meetings really
14:32making sure you understand what's going
14:33on and you're up to speed and can
14:35contribute what's been a surprise for
14:37you in terms of like wow I didn't know
14:38that this is the way it worked
14:41being on a board you know I you know I
14:43have been in the boardroom my whole
14:44career starting when I was a lawyer at
14:46Perkins cuy and various sizes of
14:47companies and then the whole time I was
14:49said Amazon you know every board in
14:50committee meetings so to me it was a
14:52really natural role the hardest thing
14:55for me has been that even though I
14:57understand the board recruiting process
14:59and I was in charge of a lot of it at
15:01Amazon working really closely with the
15:03outside directors I just it is a long
15:06process and it's really in fits and
15:08starts and a lot of times there's in
15:09perfect information blowback to the
15:11candidate so and I'd like to drive
15:13things and so I've just had to force
15:15myself to be really patient one of the
15:17things about being on a board is that
15:19it's this sort of chicken and egg
15:20problem you know people who are on
15:21boards get invited to be on other boards
15:23but how do you break through that
15:26and you know Don you probably help folks
15:29in all of you do this process but you
15:32know what do you but what works well and
15:35what would you advise so I don't know
15:37that there's any one thing that works
15:40well I think there's a variety of things
15:41network network network everybody says
15:43that I networked for about 20 months
15:45before I got my first board and I was
15:48working with a colleague at Schwab who
15:50had been a CEO previously and then came
15:52in to Schwab to run a big division and I
15:54she was the one she got calls for boards
15:57all the time and one came that sounded
15:59like it was a good fit for me and she
16:00recommended me and so that's the way it
16:03goes you need to let a lot of people
16:04know you're looking and you know they'll
16:06keep their ears open hopefully and you
16:08have to not nag them but you have to
16:10kind of just remind them periodically
16:12that you're looking many times to say
16:14what are you looking for in my case I
16:16didn't really I didn't have any specific
16:18thing I was looking for it was more a
16:19general place where I could leverage my
16:23technology expertise at that point so I
16:25do think networking works very well for
16:27private boards obviously the
16:29relationships with a bunch of
16:30capitalists work well relationships with
16:32the CEOs I also think you can be an
16:34adviser you can be an angel investor you
16:36can get to know the team and show your
16:37value over time and that can leave to a
16:39board seat so I think that's another way
16:41the other thing I think is helpful in
16:43addition is just all the general
16:44networking letting everybody you know
16:47understand helping them understand that
16:49you're interested in a board is if you
16:51if you have an idea of what you want to
16:52do and you can really try to learn more
16:55about getting on to those companies what
16:57I did when I started as I picked five
16:59companies that I thought were just super
17:00interesting where I thought I could
17:02really add value but also really learn
17:04and I decided I want to try to I want to
17:05try to get an introduction to each of
17:07those firms and I did which was great
17:10but I ended up not getting any of those
17:12board seats as part of that process I
17:13got on the Zendesk board can I ask
17:16something you know when you say you
17:17wanted to pick companies that where you
17:19could add value how sort of honest do
17:22you need to be with yourself about that
17:24I mean I sort of think oh I could go on
17:25the board of you know gee you really do
17:30I mean for one thing I hear people say
17:31well I'm on lots of nonprofit boards so
17:34therefore I can do a public or a private
17:36you know corporate board they're nothing
17:38like each other nothing at
17:39as far as I'm concerned doing nonprofits
17:41which are great things to do that's not
17:43going to prepare you for a board and you
17:45have to be honest so you know if you're
17:48a marketing person or a technology
17:49person does the company need that
17:51expertise right I mean you're not going
17:53to go to a company that's doesn't have a
17:55brand and has never marketed and never
17:56wants to market that's not gonna be a
17:58good fit I'm not going to go to it you
17:59know you're not going to go to a company
18:00now I've been a CEO but before I wasn't
18:02gonna go to a company that thought
18:03technology was the you know evil of all
18:06evils that's not going to work so you
18:07have to be really honest about what you
18:09bring to the table and and you have to
18:11and you can't just say I want to be on a
18:14board because it's good for me you have
18:16to say what can I add to the company how
18:18can I be helpful I've scaled things or
18:21I've you know whatever it is I mean a me
18:23CMO that role and a company's obviously
18:26very vital but it hasn't been it's sort
18:28of a non-traditional role at many boards
18:31but not today like more and more people
18:33are looking for people like you to help
18:35them why do you think that is you know
18:37certainly in the technology world but
18:39maybe more broadly well I think
18:41certainly for private companies and
18:44earlier stage venture funded companies
18:47nailing the marketing and the growth is
18:49going to be essential to to whatever
18:53they want their next stage to be so so I
18:56think it's it's an easier sell sometimes
18:58for private companies where I've been
19:00contacted on public companies though
19:02it's often something where the marketing
19:06isn't working right or they have a new
19:08competitive set so I think from a skill
19:11standpoint I hear people a lot who who
19:14are looking for a marketing background
19:17and and often a marketing background
19:19like mine which has a lot of non
19:21traditional marketing non spend
19:23marketing in it but what I've also found
19:26though is just from the operator
19:28standpoint yes I'm a kind of a
19:29functional marketer but I've been a part
19:32of a team that built Zillow from the
19:34beginning right so so the on one of the
19:37companies where I'm on the board for
19:39example I just joined the comp committee
19:40and and you know what I can offer there
19:42as far as organizational structure to
19:45this and putting more structure to how
19:49we how we handle performance reviews and
19:53is really relevant and isn't just
19:54marketing focus it's operator focused
19:56let me ask you guys this and you can
19:58name names you don't have to but what
20:00has been the best board you've served on
20:03or to put it another way kind of some of
20:05the best board meetings and why like
20:09what was it about this board or this
20:11like session or this intense period that
20:15well I can't name I that would be
20:17inappropriate for me to name names I
20:19mean I've enjoyed all the boards that
20:20I've been on but the meetings I find
20:23most enjoyable are the ones that are
20:25dealing with strategy the ones where
20:27you're not just having a presentation
20:29which sometimes is necessary and I
20:31understand that but the ones where
20:33you're actually engaging around the
20:34strategy those are very interesting and
20:36where the CEO really uses the board very
20:39strategically and I've been lucky enough
20:41to work with many many CEOs who use
20:43their boards very strategically and
20:45that's really fun it's it's you feel
20:47like you're making a contribution and
20:49you know you're learning a lot at the
20:51same time everybody wants to make a
20:52difference you want to walk away from a
20:54board meeting feeling like wow I
20:55contributed I made a difference I mean
20:57and and sometimes that's what makes a
20:59good board meeting as well if you could
21:00let me just poke on that a little bit if
21:02you could tell us the iou's how to use
21:03their boards well what would you tell
21:05them well I do think that first of all I
21:07would say be transparent transparent
21:09transparent and I learned a lot from all
21:11the boards I was on but one of the
21:13earliest sports I was on was eBay and I
21:15was on there for 13 years and so I
21:16watched both Meg and John and they were
21:18both incredibly transparent with their
21:20board they didn't hide anything and they
21:21didn't bring just finished things they
21:24would bring things I'm thinking about
21:25this what do you guys think or I'm you
21:27know kind of mulling about the
21:28competitive set what do you think about
21:30it and first of all I think that really
21:33engages your board members but being
21:34transparent is really important because
21:37people can't help you if they don't know
21:39what the issues are right and and you
21:41don't want to just package things for a
21:43board and not very few people do that
21:44now but that's something that I really
21:47took to heart when I started running
21:48drugstore I was completely transparent
21:50with my board they saw the good the bad
21:52and the ugly all the time and I think
21:54the best board meetings also are those
21:56where the time is used
21:57to talk strategy to answer big quest to
22:01discover PSA's to walk through every
22:04area of the business and give an update
22:05so it's not 300 slide PowerPoint
22:08presence I'm een it can be I don't think
22:10sometimes that's the best use of time I
22:13would rather be sent about ahead of time
22:15have time to absorb that and not go
22:18through everything single slide rather
22:20have the CEO say you know here's five
22:23questions who are that are top of mind
22:25for me you've now seen how the business
22:28is doing here's the big things that keep
22:29me up at night let's discuss right
22:31Michele I think that's I agree with it
22:36was both Don and Amy I do think that the
22:39best board meetings are the ones where
22:40the directors really get to contribute
22:42and that means you've done
22:43I think of it as compliance work but
22:46your business updates you know
22:48efficiently with written updates in
22:50advance and quicker discussions and then
22:52let's see I can bring a hard problem
22:54that the board can really contribute on
22:56especially if you know about the problem
22:57in advance and can think about it it's
22:59really valuable so that's your advice
23:00for CEOs to to best use their boards I
23:03think so yeah you have to fulfill the
23:06kind of updating requirements but you
23:08really ought to save time to get input
23:10on strategy and hard problems presumably
23:12you put smart people on your board so
23:14you should you know use that expertise I
23:16also think exposure to the team is good
23:19and it's different in a small company or
23:20a big company but seeing the CEOs direct
23:23reports seeing them in action getting to
23:25know them building relationships with
23:26them I think that's also very positive
23:29what what drives you bananas about being
23:33on board sometimes and and let's get
23:35back to Amy you talk about like if I'm
23:36going to do this you know with all the
23:38vast extra time you have how much time
23:41is it I not I don't know it's driving me
23:44bananas is the right term but there are
23:46challenges it to it when you have a
23:48demanding day job that there are weeks
23:51when you have time to devote to it and
23:53weeks when you don't and often something
23:58big or urgent happens on those weeks
24:00when you really don't have the time
24:01right so so figuring out how to balance
24:03that how to be a good board member to be
24:06available for the CEO and other board
24:09members but also balance that
24:10with your current challenges in your job
24:12and things you sometimes can't plan for
24:13it's hard I think the answer on your
24:16time commitment question I think it's an
24:18important question because it really
24:20varies especially for public company
24:21boards I think you can be sailing along
24:24and spending really not very much time
24:25but if something big happens you're
24:28gonna have to focus on it and you're
24:29gonna have to focus on it now and so
24:31when you take a board seat you need to
24:33be prepared to make that commitment and
24:34to understand that it's a very variable
24:36time commitment and one thing for
24:39first-time board members too is is
24:43securing the support of your own boss or
24:47CEO or board members that you'll be
24:49spending time away or traveling away
24:52from your job for this sort of thing and
24:55making sure they're supportive and can
24:57can help you in this let's switch gears
24:59a little bit we are in Seattle and we
25:02are looking out over Elliot Bay what's
25:05the Seattle tech scene like these days
25:06you know I came up from the Bay Area
25:08which there's a tech scene down there
25:09certainly Amazon Microsoft Zillow what
25:15is the Northwest sort of doing a good
25:17job at right now and how are how are
25:19things changing there's lots of exciting
25:21young companies here now I think it's
25:24getting much much more vibrant and I
25:25think we're gonna see even more over the
25:27next five to ten years there's a great
25:29angel investing Network I've been doing
25:31some advising and a little bit of
25:32investing and I've been very impressed
25:34with the quality of the CEOs that I'm
25:36seeing the quality of the ideas and I've
25:39seen a big change in the 10 years I've
25:41been in Seattle it's much more vibrant
25:42there's much more going on now I think
25:44it's pretty exciting I think there is
25:46there's an interesting parallel to the I
25:50guess personality of Seattle lights
25:53versus the Bay Area that you can see in
25:55a lot of the companies here
25:57Seattle lights are a little less ego
26:00driven a little less apt to talk about
26:03themselves and you see this in companies
26:06in good ways and bad ways so in in bad
26:09ways what I see sometimes with with
26:11startups and early-stage companies is
26:13they don't go into this saying you know
26:16I'm gonna rule the world and build the
26:17biggest thing I can and everyone's gonna
26:20they come into it saying you know we
26:21have a really good idea and we're gonna
26:23this and see what happens but sometimes
26:25that can hurt companies in not setting
26:27their in in dishes or taking big
26:29enough swings or investing in things
26:31like PR and marketing early on on the
26:34good side of it I find that tack workers
26:37in Seattle are loyal uh-huh we don't
26:40have the types of problems that our Bay
26:42Area office has and others have of
26:44people every eighteen months to two
26:46years looking for the next thing that's
26:49going to pay them more and I think that
26:51pays off in the companies we build here
26:54in Seattle and that we're able to get
26:56people who are loyalists who believe in
26:58the dream and who stick around to see it
26:59happen don't just kind of easily hop to
27:01the next thing I think that's great more
27:04companies are seeing that now though and
27:06and seeing the tech talent here and we
27:08have plenty of prominent Bay Area names
27:11opening offices up here which now makes
27:13the the job market more competitive
27:15fikriye ami but you know it's
27:16interesting people said that to me years
27:18ago and you know in the Bay Area people
27:20want to change the world up here they
27:22want to have a single or a double you
27:24know that kind of thing I've seen a real
27:25change in the last few years I'm seeing
27:27CEOs who are kind of dreaming big and
27:30founder so I do think it's I agree with
27:32Seattle has a very different personality
27:34than the Bay Area very different and I
27:36agree with everything you said about the
27:37personality but I am seeing a little bit
27:39of a change and I do think the tech
27:41market is getting more competitive up
27:43here than it was we we definitely have
27:45more I'd say mid stage success stories
27:49than we did a decade ago a decade ago it
27:51used to be early-stage startups and you
27:55know Microsoft Amazon and the big guys
27:57now in the middle you've got the Zillow
27:59and and concur and other companies that
28:03have you know seen successful IPOs that
28:06have seen successful sales that are
28:08building you know bigger workforces and
28:12bigger brand recognition and I think
28:14that's sort of kind of spreading out and
28:16exciting everyone majid remain Seattle
28:18also has another swath of non tech
28:20companies that are doing incredibly well
28:21yes - yes Michelle you were saying I
28:25think another positive change over the
28:26last five to ten years I think there's a
28:28much broader basis to
28:30angel investors which is really helpful
28:33for the younger companies I think is a
28:34lot easier to get funding here now than
28:36it used to be I mean hopefully it's
28:37gonna get easier still but it's
28:39definitely getting better there's a
28:40great angel Network here I think it's
28:42really grown up in the last five that's
28:45a function of success at companies like
28:46Microsoft and Amazon and Enzo partly I
28:49will say that having grown up here and
28:52then looking at South Lake Union where
28:54Amazon's building things and where Paul
28:56Allen honed kind of that I mean Seattle
28:59looks like it's changing more than you
29:01know any city in the Bay Area I will say
29:02that it's changed a lot it has changed a
29:05lot and in good ways yeah so well I want
29:07to thank you guys all so much
29:09Don Amy and Michelle this has been great
29:12and I really appreciate it thanks for
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