00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6 & Z
00:02podcast today's episode is all about
00:04mentors and mentees the discussion takes
00:07place between a 6 and C co-founder Ben
00:09Horowitz and his mentor Ken Coleman who
00:12started his career at HP and then
00:13Activision was later chairman of
00:15accelerant his on multiple other boards
00:17and held several executive positions at
00:20Silicon Graphics in between it's based
00:22on a Q&A that took place at an event we
00:24hosted in May 2018 and the discussion is
00:26moderated by Michelle Feaster herself a
00:29mentee of Ben's she was formerly at HP
00:31and then aptio and is now the CEO and
00:33co-founder of user mind you can also
00:35hear her insights on creating a category
00:37from pricing to positioning in a
00:39previous episode which you can find at a
00:416 + Z comm slash podcast but today's
00:44episode covers everything about mentors
00:46and mentees from how to break into a
00:48particular industry or company to how to
00:50help up-and-comers of all backgrounds to
00:52the most annoying and best things
00:54between mentors and mentees but the
00:56conversation begins with how they found
00:59Ben how did you and kami love to hear
01:01that one there's an interesting story so
01:04my father who had I grew up in Berkeley
01:08my father was like a I don't know how to
01:12describe him like a political rabble
01:15rouser intellectual but no like
01:18connection to corporate America my mom
01:21was a nurse and you know I'm trying to
01:23get a job coming out of school and so
01:27you know I asked my Dean you know did he
01:28know anybody who like worked in
01:30technology and he said well you know I
01:32was at this yoga class and one of the
01:36women at yoga class she's married to
01:37this guy who runs a tech company and the
01:41woman was Sanjay McCracken and the the
01:43man was Ed McCracken and the company was
01:45Silicon Graphics he got Sanja to ask
01:48Edie if he would look at me as a summer
01:51intern and of course wasn't going to
01:54deal with that so he gave it to Ken
01:57as you do and you know Kent followed up
02:00which you know I said a lot of companies
02:02that follow up doesn't even happen he
02:04followed up and gave me that summer
02:06internship and that was in 1987 why did
02:11you follow up well I think there's an
02:14over liens on resumes and experience and
02:16people miss was really important in
02:18success which is skills abilities and
02:21personal attributes and I thought he was
02:22a smart kid at those days I thought he
02:27had just enough of an edge on him to be
02:30interesting he had a drive and I thought
02:34he had the personality to do interesting
02:36things and in those days we were looking
02:39for people at SGI who's gonna do the
02:42interesting things because we were
02:43creating new technology yeah by the way
02:47that's been part of my life experiences
02:48that I think the people who become the
02:50best mentors see past your resume and so
02:53I see something inside you that they
02:55connect with certainly I feel like
02:57that's what happened with us a good
02:58point and so I think when you're looking
03:00knowing whether that person has that
03:03approach to the people that they're
03:05encountering I think it's a core part of
03:06finding your and vice versa yeah you
03:08know the mentee has to take that
03:09approach I find it fascinating that a
03:13manager who's five years out of school
03:16recruiting somebody and put suspect
03:18together for 15 years experience not
03:23find it weird and they had to go to
03:27even though the manager event yeah yeah
03:30so I'm interested Ben so how did your
03:32relationship change over time how did it
03:34go from the initial kind of meeting and
03:36get any opportunity to really becoming a
03:38more important figure in your life yeah
03:41well so you know one thing that I think
03:43is actually important in retrospect it
03:45is you know as soon as I got in the
03:48company like people knew why I got the
03:51interview that's not something that
03:52stays secret okay you coming through
03:54like Ed McCracken and Kent Coleman and
03:56like Ken was literally I think six
03:59levels up the orchard like it was a big
04:02big distance so people know that and
04:04what that said to me wasn't oh I'm a
04:07made guy but that said to me is like I
04:10Kent I have to be better than everybody
04:13expects me to I had to work twice as
04:15hard I got to keep grinding and that's
04:17really how the relationship started like
04:19I just went in there and worked as hard
04:21as I possibly could and so because I
04:23knew somebody was gonna say something to
04:25it was either gonna be good or bad and I
04:28wanted it to be good and that's really
04:31yeah I totally relate to that it's funny
04:32I was telling some people I speak a lot
04:34in public but I was nervous before
04:35coming up on stage tonight and I was
04:37telling everybody I didn't want to
04:38embarrass you yeah there you go same
04:42feeling and I think you you know is
04:44really I was super grateful for the job
04:46I mean at that time I had no idea how to
04:48get into Silicon Valley I was coming
04:50you know outer space as far as I could
04:52tell yeah yeah so figuring out a way to
04:55get in not necessarily coming in through
04:57the front door you know I'd love kind of
04:59your I think it's a really important
05:00point companies put together systems and
05:04processes and unfortunately about 10
05:07sometimes up to 20 percent at a time
05:09that process makes no sense it's just
05:13not helpful and so what you want to do
05:15in the company is people who can do what
05:17I call intelligent override the problem
05:19is most countries don't have many people
05:21like that who will do intelligent
05:23override and so if you let the system
05:27dictate to you whether you get an
05:29opportunity or not you probably won't
05:31get that opportunity you can't take it
05:33personally then you need to figure out
05:36how to deal with that would intelligent
05:38override and if you interacting with the
05:40company you got to figure out how to go
05:42through the side door rather than have
05:44the system keep you for getting an
05:47opportunity I'm always impressed with
05:49people or persistent it will try to
05:51everything you know I admire those kind
05:53of people and you figure out they'll do
05:55that to get an interview they might do
05:58that to get a customer or solve a
06:01yeah that's a really interesting point
06:03it's a little bit of a qualifying test
06:06to see if you can actually find the side
06:08door and actually venture capital works
06:11very much like that and that you hear
06:13people complain a lot well I don't know
06:16any VC so I can't get my company funded
06:19well if you're gonna be an entrepreneur
06:20and build a company you know
06:22scrape and get customers and figure out
06:24how to build a product and hire people
06:26you better be able to find the side door
06:28because if you can't do that like that's
06:30actually an essential skill for that job
06:32part of it is you know is the person
06:34inclined to mentor but the other piece
06:36is does that mentor see something in you
06:38that persistence or that drive and that
06:40hustle that makes them want to take
06:42their time and spend it you know it's
06:45interesting I was reflecting on
06:46mentorship and mentors in my life you
06:48know most of them have been unexpected
06:50you know if you ask me to plan my life
06:52forward I would never imagine I'd be
06:53sitting here or that you'd be my mentor
06:55that I would necessarily be a founder so
06:57I'd love to hear from both of you like
06:59who have been the unexpected mentors in
07:01your life my first mentor in technology
07:04was a guy that most of you if I haven't
07:07heard of his name is Howard Smith before
07:09Silicon Graphics we were treated Howard
07:11to HP and I learned more about how to
07:14manage engineering from him than anybody
07:17and we used to go to a place called red
07:19coats and I used to drink Scott I talk
07:23about management and leadership and that
07:24kind of stuff and he would talk about
07:26engineering how you manage engineering
07:28how do you identify engineering people
07:30and I just went to school on him and
07:33that was a very important relationship
07:35and my point area you can have a peer as
07:38a mentor because we were peers I didn't
07:41work for him he didn't work for me I
07:43think every mentor I've had has been
07:45unexpected including Ken who I like I
07:49would never have expected
07:50ken to be my men are even like when I
07:53got the job that was just he was so
07:54senior to me at the time but like one of
07:57the more unusual ones is very early in
08:00my career I read a book called high
08:03output management by any Grove and I you
08:05know I thought it was the best book I'd
08:06read and first miss me yeah first book I
08:09gave you if I've given any of you a book
08:11it's probably that one and you know I
08:13read all his books and I studied him and
08:15you know I thought he was wow this guy's
08:17such a great CEO and he knows how to
08:19break down management in the right way
08:21and you know over the years I met him a
08:23couple times but in my mind he was
08:26always my mentor and the really crazy
08:29thing about that story is very very many
08:33years later towards the
08:34and his life he called me up he said
08:36they're doing a new addition to high
08:38output management I want you to write
08:39the foreword and I was like wow why me
08:43and he said you know watch this talk you
08:44gave at Stanford on your book and they
08:48asked you you know why you wrote it and
08:50you said when I was a kid
08:52Andy Grove wrote this book and I
08:54couldn't even understand why the CEO of
08:56Intel would write a how-to book on
08:58management like there is no reason for
09:00him to do that of event you know to help
09:02people like me and so I thought if I
09:04ever get to any level near what he got
09:06to I will try and do something like that
09:08and he said I read the book and like
09:10it's pretty good which form Andy Grove
09:13that's and so it's just like a very
09:16unusual mentor-mentee relationship for
09:18me and I think therefore that book is my
09:21favorite thing that I've ever written so
09:23mentoring founders right that's a unique
09:26thing can you talk about transitioning
09:29like how do you mentor a founder how do
09:30you see them transitioning from founders
09:32to successful CEOs I've been thinking
09:35about that a lot recently as I've worked
09:37with founders trying to build companies
09:40and I being as what Ben has to say about
09:42this also but there's a difference when
09:46there are five of you or eight of you or
09:4810 of you when there's 500 of you or
09:51thousand of you and the person's job who
09:55changes the most in a growing
09:56environment is a CEO chef the guy at the
09:59top a woman at the top hundred percent
10:01and that's a tough journey that's a
10:04really difficult complex journey you
10:07know because when you're up to about a
10:09hundred and twenty-five people you the
10:11CEO you're the leader of the company can
10:14know everybody when you got 500 people
10:17everybody knows you and you know a very
10:19small part of the company one of the
10:22first thing that happens when you goes
10:23that transition you realize I didn't
10:25know so much about X because I now have
10:27an expert I always remember when I hired
10:29a general counselor world for me I said
10:33what's my value proposition the guy's
10:35gonna know more about legal than I'll
10:37ever know confronting that reality that
10:40it is a really a different job is really
10:43important you know like when I was CEO I
10:46would sometimes just give somebody
10:48you got to do it this way but you can't
10:50do that as a CEO mentor and it is
10:52complicated at times because you will
10:54know the answer and you have to have the
10:56discipline to not go all the way through
10:58so Ben was my mentor before I became a
11:00CEO so you know when I was an executive
11:02and kind of a middle level product
11:04person and has stayed in my life you
11:07know since I made the transition to
11:08founder and CEO I find two things very
11:11fascinating about how you mentor me one
11:13you know it's a lot of questions but two
11:16you've known me so long that I feel like
11:18you have a sense for how I'm gonna react
11:20and sometimes your questions are like
11:22snap me out of an emotional state that
11:24I'm in and get me to engage more
11:26intellectually you know with the problem
11:28I'm solving I mean do you think that
11:30relationship mentoring is as core to it
11:33as like the fact that you've both been
11:34CEOs and so you know how to ask the
11:36right questions it's hard to advise
11:38people on how to do this is it really
11:41does get out what you're talking about
11:42it's there's no real generic advice that
11:45works you can't say it you know it's for
11:47that person in that situation based on
11:49what they're feeling and so much of that
11:51job is so emotional and so much of when
11:53they screw it up they're so afraid of
11:55the dark place that they put themselves
11:56in a dark place that was my phone call
11:59to Ben last week you have to be a good
12:01listener you got to be able to ask good
12:03questions and I can tell a lot about
12:05ability to be helpful two things one is
12:09how self-aware is a person
12:11it's a present of a sense of who they
12:12are what their blind spots are and
12:14that's one two is there's somebody and
12:17you make a point he always has the
12:19answer he's figured out before you're
12:21gonna have the question well nobody's
12:23always figured out and so when to
12:25somebody like that is gonna be really
12:27hard to come to grips with an issue so
12:30the people that can grow the Mo's or
12:34people when you have a conversation
12:36today and you talk to him a week from
12:39the day and they've done something with
12:40the conversation not to necessarily did
12:43what I might have done but they've done
12:45something because I always fascinating
12:48if I meet any of you or executives or
12:50managers and I asked you a question to
12:53walk me through your team always like
12:55everybody I have somebody on my team I
12:57say why is that person given what you
12:59just said to me why is that person
13:02you given what not what I said
13:05it's what you said and so it's just
13:08being a mirror to what somebody said can
13:12be quite helpful that person now they
13:14can still choose not to deal with it but
13:16they can't deny but they said it
13:18heightens they have you know all three
13:21of us are kind of walking
13:22representations for the power of
13:24mentorship in our lives and so I think
13:26everyone here is gonna walk out of there
13:28thinking I want a mentor maybe they came
13:31in here wanting a mentor but I think
13:33it's hard to find what advice would you
13:35how do people network or cultivate these
13:38kinds of life-changing relationships I
13:40feel strongly that networking is an
13:43undervalued skill in the world so I
13:46believe you should be about getting to
13:48know more and more people and the
13:51mentorship happens organically as you
13:54get to know people because you can't
13:55make somebody be a mentor and for it to
13:58work that relationship there has to be
14:01trust and you've got to be willing to
14:03hear if your mentee something that you
14:05don't want to hear and then for the
14:07mentor I got to feel like it's worth the
14:10journey you know that there's a
14:13chemistry is worth the time and effort
14:14to spend with somebody and so it's you
14:18got a date and see if it happens if
14:23you're trying to develop a relation with
14:25somebody of how do you stay engaged
14:27without being a pest there's a skill
14:29there or a sense there if you just pull
14:34away and don't stay in contact that
14:36doesn't work but if you're a pest that
14:39doesn't work so you got to have the
14:40sensibility to how much is enough so
14:44that I maintain a relationship what
14:46build a relationship but not be a pest I
14:49mean you guys seem verified on rap
14:52genius like where the rapper explains
14:54his own lyrics so Jeezy did one and it's
14:57a great explanation of kind of
14:59mentorship because it's really like
15:00people like you know he's a established
15:03rapper so people want to have Jeezy as a
15:05mentor and he says look I don't hang a
15:09lot of rappers because I feel like
15:10rappers are fake I dress up in their
15:12Halloween costumes and you know there
15:14always trying to pretend to be somebody
15:16he says I like to hang around with
15:18genuine like somebody who
15:21will call you on your birthday or you
15:23know call to check in on you and to me
15:26that really got at it in that look it's
15:29a relationship and it's got to be a
15:31relationship where there's value going
15:33in both directions where you know you're
15:35actually interested in that person not
15:37and what you can get out of them I
15:39totally agree I've mentored people
15:41who've worked for me and mentor people
15:43who just got intro to me you know
15:45friends kids and I think some of its
15:48chemistry and some of it is like do I
15:50just admire their grit and determination
15:52you know they come to me prepared and
15:54they you know ask me questions and don't
15:55waste my time and then do we you know
15:58meet enough times to actually develop a
16:00relationship so I think you know you
16:03can't make it happen you can't force
16:04that right there is some core element of
16:06chemistry to it so you both talked about
16:09mentorship as a two-way street right
16:11where you're giving to the mentee and
16:13you're also learning from them I'd love
16:16to hear you know what less than or a
16:18piece of advice that you learned from
16:20one of your mentees that kind of changed
16:22your point of view on the world well
16:24I'll tell you one right here Bennett
16:28started Opsware before I started the
16:30company and I used to go meet with Ben
16:32and more regularly tell me about what
16:35you guys have learned what would the
16:37tripwires you chipped over not tripped
16:40over a lot of and so I got from him on
16:44their journey that helped me deal with
16:47my journey so I think you can learn
16:50something from anybody and if it's not a
16:53two-way street it doesn't work very well
16:55I learned a lot from everybody that I
16:58work with and you learn different kinds
17:00of things so one of the best CEOs I work
17:02with is like really really remarkable
17:04CEO and one thing is just his relentless
17:09sense of what the standard has to be at
17:13his company in terms of how good you
17:15have to be to work there how good the
17:17processes have to be he's always going
17:19like are we the best company that you
17:22have like ads will develop it was better
17:25he always wants to know that calm
17:27suddenly and he's always kind of meeting
17:29people and seeing like how his team
17:31stacks up and really really trying to be
17:33the best possible there is somebody I
17:36mentor a long time I learned something
17:39very powerful for him every time you
17:43meet with this guy he always ends with
17:47what can I do for you this fast is
17:50disarming and you feel well he cares he
17:53cares about how he can help me and I
17:56just find that a very powerful way to
17:59end the conversation yeah yeah I've
18:02certainly been changed by both my
18:04mentors in my life and the people I've
18:06mentored can I'd love to know what was
18:08your experience like you know when you
18:09first got to the valley and and how is
18:11diversity changed over the course of
18:13your time here that's an interesting
18:15question I get that a lot you know when
18:18I got here there were very few
18:21african-americans in technology I've
18:24never thought about it quite that way I
18:26thought about achieving making a
18:28difference being successful having a
18:31challenge and in my generation life was
18:36gonna be hard and I had to be better
18:38than my white counterpart that was
18:41Justin his antiseptic reality and
18:45there's a book I read in college and
18:49most of you if I'd never heard of it and
18:51I'm sure it's not in printing were
18:52called five smooth stones and this is a
18:56really effective way I view my life as a
18:59black male and this black kid in New
19:03Orleans and he had a mentor and he was
19:07going to college in Ohio and as mentor
19:10said this you're gonna go to school in
19:12Ohio and you find prejudice and
19:14discrimination but don't look under the
19:17bed for it what that means is if you
19:20black in this country or you're female
19:23or if you're different you're not
19:26majority there are some people that
19:28won't appreciate you and will
19:31discriminate you because of that fact
19:33but if you spend your life looking for
19:36it you can't be successful
19:39you can't win you can't even afford to
19:43make an excuse for yourself you can't be
19:46stupid about it can't be naive the world
19:48is what it is and some people will do
19:50bad things because of that but you got
19:53to move on you can't get bogged down
19:55with it now I tell my close white
19:59friends have to be careful no matter how
20:01liberal you are you never have to ask
20:03yourself this question did this happen
20:05to me because I was black you never have
20:08to ask that question as a different
20:09experience and that you have to
20:11appreciate that you know in hindsight I
20:14powered through I wasn't looking for
20:16excuses and I was just trying to achieve
20:19and then I'll try to bring people along
20:22with me and force organizations to deal
20:26with themselves and understand what
20:29they're doing if you take a simple thing
20:31as I said earlier an over-reliance of
20:34experience if you over rely on
20:37experience and not on skills abilities
20:42and personal attributes you can cut out
20:45women and minorities who might not have
20:46lots of experience I didn't find it
20:49lonely to be an early black person in
20:53this business I just was trying to win
20:56make a difference be challenged I worry
20:59about I'm finding that a number of DNI
21:02people have the job and no power no
21:05influence and trying to do diversity is
21:09hard like anything else you have to have
21:12goals and objectives like anything else
21:14that's important and you have to have
21:17people who have the ability to move the
21:19needle you can't just hang your sign out
21:21and says I believe in diversity and
21:23think diversity happens you know
21:27companies are social systems social
21:29systems like to recreate themselves and
21:32so if you want to create a diverse
21:34workforce because you think is important
21:37then you have to be willing to work at
21:40and you know there's this statement I've
21:44ever just went about the elephant and
21:46so the giraffes were in tall slender
21:50building it was raining outside like
21:53terribly and the sort of feeling sorry
21:57for the elephants and so you know they
22:00gonna recruit then bring in the
22:02elephants in the building because they
22:05will feel sorry for the elephants and
22:06then after Elvis has been in the
22:08building for a while they says we can't
22:11see out of the window but the windows
22:13are too high and the giraffe says the
22:16elephants will grow your neck longer all
22:19right and then the elephant says well
22:22the walls are too tight can we widen the
22:25building a little bit so we can fit it
22:28is lose weight so I think that what
22:31companies often do they hire like folks
22:35or one-minute cetera but they talk and
22:38act and do is a key what they've always
22:40done they don't accommodate mm-hmm
22:43that's why the inclusion part of D&I is
22:45really important it you have to look at
22:47who you are and how you do things and it
22:51is really are those the best thing to be
22:53doing you know a lot of the press about
22:55the valley is what are we doing about
22:57hiring but to your point how do we
22:59include how do we make people feel
23:01welcome and stay in cultures yeah well I
23:04think when you set up a job you accept a
23:07profile that you want for the candidate
23:09and people's natural tendency is to
23:11profile to themselves because I know
23:14what I'm good at I value it highly and I
23:17can test for it in an interview so like
23:19why when I profile to me it's perfect
23:23but if you do that you're taking a very
23:25narrow view of the talent pool because
23:27you're seeing it through a very very
23:28specific prism and so the challenge the
23:33work I think starts with broadening your
23:37view of what the profile should be
23:38beyond yourself the real benefit of that
23:41is gets to the giraffe and the elephant
23:43which is what somebody comes on board
23:47with a broader profile than just like
23:49the person hiring then nobody has to
23:51question why they're there look
23:54everybody knows why they there they're
23:55the very best candidate for that job
23:56description because like that's the
23:58criteria I have a belief I think no
24:02matter what we'd say around here
24:04in technology that the average hiring
24:07manager is not trying to maximize the
24:09opportunity to find a minimize risk
24:12that's a great point yeah so if you buy
24:15that then the more different you are a
24:21I perceive yeah especially if you are of
24:25a person who's really different than me
24:27so if I'm white male I went to Stanford
24:31then it just feels well the better yet
24:34I'm blackmailing with Ohio State so I
24:37know they're better than Stanford people
24:38so less risky mm-hmm okay but you create
24:42that at least subconsciously if not
24:45consciously in your mind
24:47and so that manager the sub-continent
24:51immed at company creates a higher bar of
24:55qualification to minimize to perceive
24:58risk and I believe if you don't tease
25:00that out we will all make that mistake
25:03and so I think it's very important as a
25:06manager or an executive as a company to
25:10make sure that your first not trying to
25:13minimize risk you're trying to maximize
25:16opportunity and that you deal with your
25:19own belief system about what a qualified
25:23person looks like yeah and be willing to
25:26broaden that if you believe that
25:29diversity of thought and talents and
25:32experience creates a better outcomes
25:35Cowan Powell had a great line on that
25:37which is you hire for the strength not
25:39the lack of weakness and very few people
25:42do that but it's a huge advantage if you
25:44can because that's how you get greatness
25:46you never get greatness if you look for
25:48like this the person not have any holes
25:50and I'll tell you something about lack
25:52of weakness everybody's got a weakness
25:54you just didn't see it in the interview
25:55you want to know what you were getting
25:58so you can manage say I can manage
26:01against that weakness I can surround
26:03that person with the support against
26:05that weakness but if you don't know the
26:07weakness of somebody you're trying to
26:08hire that doesn't mean they're perfect
26:10if you don't know what you need to work
26:12on you're not working on it yeah yeah
26:13you know so when you think about your
26:16point of view on diversity
26:17inclusion how does that affect the way
26:19you coach and mentor the next generation
26:22of entrepreneurs one of the fascinating
26:25things about diversity is if there's a
26:28it just shows up more powerfully or
26:31quicker to a person it was different or
26:34minority person or a female person so if
26:37you push out on the diversity issues
26:40it'll make you a better company or a
26:42better leader and so I believe that that
26:48is to your best interest to challenge
26:50yourself as a company as a leader as a
26:53person I agree so I had a manager and he
26:56had a woman working for him and I he
26:58said like I can't manager like she hates
27:00me and I said well why do you think that
27:02and he said well you know we were having
27:05a meeting and I cut her off during the
27:07meeting and she came to me afterwards
27:09and she said I really appreciate how you
27:11cut me off during the meeting and I said
27:13well why do you think she hates you and
27:18he's like well it's such a small thing
27:19to have a confrontation over so I just
27:21said it's like well maybe she just
27:23didn't like the way you cut her off in
27:25the meeting this is why don't you go
27:29talk to her about that and find out
27:30there are these little things that can
27:32turn into big things from a diversity
27:34standpoint and you know like people come
27:36from different backgrounds they're used
27:37to different things I mean I I was a
27:39diversity problem when I started working
27:41at SGI because you know in my family
27:43like the way we used to argue because my
27:45father and the way he is is like you
27:48know you attack each other you call them
27:50idiots and you do that in a company
27:51setting they say well you're an idiot
27:53people don't like that no wonder we get
27:57along so sometimes you have to help
28:00somebody adjust into the culture that
28:02you have and in just because they come
28:04from a different culture doesn't mean
28:05they can't make that adjustment and so I
28:08think how you think of it on the
28:09individual level particularly when
28:11you're coming up for yourself should be
28:12different than how you think about it
28:14and that's so important because they do
28:16think people you know lose ground
28:19because if you feel defeated before you
28:21start then you are defeated so some of
28:23the companies I work with I have work
28:26with people will say doing diversity is
28:29hard to virtually to tears
28:31and I say yeah but we do hard in this
28:35business that we're all yeah do you
28:37think diverse is hard try to build the
28:39company yeah try to raise money nothing
28:43I mean so try to deal with the people
28:46you raised so hard is a terrible reason
28:55not to do anything because we live in
28:57this world where we choose to do hard
28:59every day yeah we do my last startup and
29:02I was constantly having culture issues
29:04with my peers and I call him one day and
29:07I'm kind of complaining about this
29:08culture and how I don't fit in and bed
29:10said why don't you just go found your
29:11own company and create your own culture
29:13and so you know I think that's a third
29:15way I think you know entrepreneurship is
29:17a powerful vehicle for social change and
29:20my company you know works certainly not
29:22perfect but I do think that's a third
29:24option and I'm glad he challenged me and
29:26I'm glad I did it and it changed my life
29:28so I would encourage those of you who
29:30get stuck drop out my question is when
29:40you think about mentors and you want to
29:43approach someone with a request to be a
29:44mentor and then you're sort of in a
29:46junior role you guys mentioned that it's
29:48important to have a two-way relationship
29:49you know like both parties have to get
29:52something out of it and you want to talk
29:54to an exec and you're like in the junior
29:55role like how do you present that how
29:57would you give back to them one of the
29:59things that you you know you can start
30:01with is if there's somebody who you want
30:05to get to know then you can say look
30:08especially if they're in the same
30:09companies you can say like I really
30:11admire you would you mind if I bought
30:14you lunch and asked you some questions
30:15and then you know you you really just
30:18want to get started you know just go
30:20will you marry me it's like who are you
30:24you know like what are you talking about
30:27so you know start there and you know and
30:30it really is people like people who know
30:33them and you know like how much do you
30:35really understand about that person and
30:37do you really like them or are you just
30:39doing this you know so that you can kind
30:41of have a relationship with somebody up
30:43Araki and those are the kinds of things
30:45you need to ask yourself and try and
30:47find a mentor who you really like and
30:49would love to just me that's a great
30:51place to start so I have one thought
30:53there by the way targeting so I think
30:55anyone who is inclined to mentor has a
30:57track record of promoting from within
30:59they have a track record of of kind of
31:02having mentees and it's pretty evident
31:04if you think about it who's inclined to
31:06take that lunch meeting and who's not
31:07and so I think I would put that lens on
31:10it and you can't control the chemistry
31:12but you can control the selection of who
31:14joins you for lunch so I would be
31:16deliberate many many people don't value
31:18that and their actions and their own
31:20teams they manage clearly reflect that
31:22so we've talked a lot of tonight about
31:24positive experiences with mentorship but
31:26have any of you ever had any experiences
31:28with mentor mentee relationships that
31:31haven't worked out and at what point do
31:33you make the decision to step away well
31:36it can be really self challenging and
31:39frustrating to see somebody headed for a
31:42train wreck that you seem 10 times at
31:45does he talk about me go work at net
31:47laugh and the person just won't listen
31:51and at some point I've had to say it's
31:55just not worth my time because a person
31:57knows it all you know and they don't
32:00care to hear you know they have all the
32:03answers to everything and I just I don't
32:07want to waste my time or your time it's
32:09always if I have no value proposition I
32:12don't know why we should be discussing
32:13it so I've had that happen several times
32:15in my career yeah for me the biggest
32:17thing is when they don't tell me the
32:19yeah on purpose you know it's not that
32:22they don't know they know and they don't
32:24want me to know and so I'm just like why
32:26am I here under no circumstances do I
32:30want to work with somebody who doesn't
32:33tell me the truth like consistently what
32:36a marvelous evening thank you guys very
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