00:00hi this is Chris Dixon this is the a 16z
00:02podcast I'm here today with my
00:06Balaji Srinivasan and Gayle Shaffir
00:09today we're gonna talk about virtual
00:11reality and oculus I guess the first
00:15question is you know this is one of
00:17these things kind of like mobile
00:18computing which has been sort of people
00:21have tried to do for you know 20 plus
00:24years you know the there was a company
00:28for example called NGO computing in the
00:30early 90s which tried to do kind of
00:31early version of the iPad it didn't
00:34really work and then eventually the iPad
00:37there were people to try to virtual
00:38reality before and didn't work and then
00:40oculus came along wise is you know what
00:44sort of came together to make it happen
00:46now I think with virtual reality it's
00:49something that you can't do a poor job
00:50with because you've got a screen close
00:53to your face it's really easy to get
00:55motion sick and you know really small
00:57problems in the experience can can
00:59really destroy it for users so there had
01:02to be a number of advancements I think
01:03for it to really work on the display
01:06side high resolution screens with faster
01:10refresh rates and then a lot of the
01:12components that go into cell phones like
01:14the accelerometers and other inertial
01:17and just the speed of graphics chips
01:19like one of the key ideas with virtual
01:20reality right is the motion to photon
01:23latency so the move your head how
01:25quickly did screen get updated and so
01:26every one of those parts in between that
01:28there has to be incredibly well
01:30optimized right but even without that
01:31without the without the screen
01:33technology even you could potentially
01:35render wire frames fast enough for an
01:37interesting experience but even that
01:39would get people sick without yeah kind
01:41of yeah sort of some variant of like the
01:43uncanny valley or something where it's
01:46like if you graphed it out like until
01:48you get over some threshold it's it's
01:51it's sort of it's a terrible experience
01:53because you can get motion sickness and
01:54I think that happens some with the first
01:55dev kit because it wasn't quite there
01:59you know and so but once you kind of hit
02:01over that threshold suddenly it goes
02:02from like this kind of gadget into this
02:05feeling of presence which is like you're
02:06actually transported to some other place
02:08yeah it's a really interesting
02:09experience where we you know we
02:11mentioned all these things that if
02:12they're slightly off can destroy
02:13the experience but yet when all the
02:17things like refresh rates and positional
02:19tracking work together at that level
02:22where they don't cause any problems it
02:24does become a really magical experience
02:25yeah it's not also not an uncommon kind
02:29of phenomenon in technology like people
02:30talked about convergence device ten
02:31years before you had the iPhone and you
02:33know second life rupaul II have third
02:35life or second life 2.0 or something
02:37like that now so I think another
02:40iteration on the things that have
02:41happened like 5-10 years laters pretty
02:43it seems that pretty much everything
02:45talked about in science fiction
02:46eventually happens it's just a question
02:48of win yeah so what so in five years I
02:52think we're all believers this is going
02:54to be a pervasive widespread technology
02:58a lot of people think of it as just
03:01being about gaming I don't think we
03:04think that at all what are some of the
03:07things that that you think people using
03:09VR for so one application I'm pretty
03:11interested in is telepresence so you
03:15know if you imagine in maybe three five
03:17years to voltar got sort of demo units
03:19like this you know set up at you've got
03:21oculus on your head and you've got
03:23something like the thalmic Myo sensitive
03:26armbands on your on your wrist so that
03:28you can or your forearms so it can
03:30detect your foreign position you've got
03:32a 3d treadmill underneath you
03:33maybe got also an array of connects in
03:35front of you to detect facial
03:37expressions and body motions and so on
03:39and so forth you now have a very
03:40sensitive apparatus determine your
03:43body's conformation and now you can use
03:46that to for example control say one of
03:48these Google robots these humanoid
03:49robots that were originally acquired on
03:51the other side of the world and you can
03:52move it around and you can send
03:54telemetry back and so you can tour the
03:56pyramids for free right
03:58you know just boom SSH into this remote
04:00robot and walk it around and you can do
04:01tours and so I think that's going to be
04:03a very interesting kind of application
04:05you can also the other interesting thing
04:08is and people talk about this which
04:09reality is you can pre record the tour
04:12have the three-dimensional like so you
04:14go to the Taj Mahal you have the whole
04:16thing perfectly then rendered in virtual
04:19reality and then there's no reason to
04:20have to do it synchronously you can do a
04:21synchronously you can just go and
04:23anytime you want do VR tourism that's
04:25right it allows you be a big app
04:27yeah and in this case like the kind of
04:28app that I was thinking of it would so
04:30you could do it synchronously which I'd
04:32call a remote reality and then you can
04:33do it asynchronously which should be
04:34like an experiential or like virtual
04:36reality thing and it's almost like dual
04:38to like a Google glass 2.0 where
04:40michaelis would play it back and then a
04:41Google glass 2.0 might record another
04:43thing like that are sporting and musical
04:45events so you got whatever so your
04:47favorite band is playing your favorite
04:48sports team I've seen companies building
04:51orb like giant camera things where you
04:54can put them there and then you record
04:56the whole thing and then as you turn
04:57your head you know you can it's as if
04:59you're there because it's all the
05:01different the whole scene that's been
05:02running I think it I think if you look
05:03at what people are doing right now in
05:05their leisure time it'll tell you a lot
05:07about what people will likely be doing
05:08with with VR if people are watching
05:10sports if they're watching movies in
05:12virtual reality just provides a much
05:14better medium to actually experience
05:16those I agree I think also um the one of
05:21the things I know about you get a Gil
05:23but but in using VR lately I've come to
05:27believe that games like shooters are
05:30actually going to be far too intense
05:32because it's like being there so imagine
05:35you're actually there and you feel like
05:36whoa that guy's shooting at me so I've
05:38actually come to be kind of somewhat
05:40bearish on some of the more game I mean
05:42at least the games as they exist today
05:43on the Xbox for example you know
05:45titanfall like you're gonna have a heart
05:47attack if you have like a giant Titan
05:48coming at you oculus will reduce
05:51violence in video games well no I think
05:52it will I think actually like driving
05:54might be intense enough and I also think
05:56like remember the demos where you're
05:58like sitting on a beach and there's like
05:59a it's like a three dimensional photo
06:01which like three dimensional photos have
06:02always been disappointed so I'm like
06:04panoramic photos like on your iphone
06:06like what's the point because you're
06:06viewing it back on an iPhone 3d TVs or a
06:10gimmick and they don't really work in
06:12this case when you've actually recorded
06:14the true 3d and you're seeing in true 3d
06:16going and sitting on a beach in Italy or
06:19something for half an hour after I get
06:20home from work and like when I go home
06:23from work out a long day
06:24I'm gonna have a beer and I'm gonna send
06:25the beach in Italy like that's kind of a
06:27good experience as opposed to running
06:29around shooting people yeah I think
06:30these they're just so amazingly
06:32compelling experiences that certainly
06:34things like relaxation or meditation or
06:36actually they're interesting non-game
06:38use days I also like the number of
06:40I'll mention about the experiences is
06:41like I don't think you've ever no one
06:43has ever experienced true digital 3d I'm
06:46now concluded until VR because 3d movies
06:48you're watching the movie and it's like
06:50regular stuff and then suddenly like the
06:51thing comes at you it's like a gimmick
06:52right like I hate 3d movies like in
06:55these demos with VR like the sense of
06:57scale I have never experienced like
07:00seeing your like flying through space
07:01and there's a giant obelisk or whatever
07:02the only time I've ever experienced that
07:04my life is like in New York City looking
07:06up at a skyscraper like yeah I've never
07:07been afraid that something in a 3d movie
07:10was gonna come out and hit me in the
07:12head but I found myself in some of those
07:14demos ducking as cubes who are rotating
07:17towards me yeah so regarding 3d photos
07:19also like you know the destiny of every
07:21piece of hardware is ultimately to
07:23integrate with a mobile phone or many of
07:24them and you know connects we started to
07:27see some of these mobile phones that
07:28become basically 3d scanners and see
07:30that because I think I think within two
07:32years four phones almost all smartphones
07:34will be able to take three to 3d imaging
07:37exactly and so then like you know you
07:39can talk about experiencing those
07:41moments again because you're 3d scanned
07:43the room and then you can wander around
07:44in oculus like you know almost like
07:47these you know kind of TV shows where
07:49the psychic works back into some of
07:51these heads and they walk around the
07:52scene or something like that right I
07:54think we're also like I think about like
07:56diversity that famous photo where I
07:58think it's like and whatever 1905 or
08:01whenever the first films were come 15 or
08:03whatever the first films are coming out
08:04of there's a photo where the train's
08:05coming at people told me our brothers
08:07yeah yeah exactly and and everyone's
08:09like ducking because no one had seen
08:10this train coming at you right right and
08:13like didn't know how to react and now of
08:14course we understand the language of
08:16like there's a language now for
08:17filmmaking and there's a language for
08:19watching films and the interesting thing
08:20with VR is we haven't yet discovered
08:22those languages right and so people are
08:24gonna realize oh you know you can't do
08:26shooting and running or this but you can
08:28do this and like what works and what
08:29doesn't I think it's gonna be I I think
08:31it's gonna be a really exciting time to
08:33be either gamed whatever gonna call it a
08:35VR maker which is like maybe game
08:36developers are probably filmmakers
08:37actually very fitting that that oculus
08:40is Anela it's like this is a new film
08:41medium there's gonna be a really
08:44interesting period there were people are
08:45sort of constructing that language which
08:47took you decades in the case of film
08:49yeah and and that's interesting actually
08:50because even like almost a passive
08:53game where you'd sort of be walked
08:55around within the game without being too
08:57interactive could be kind of interesting
08:59so a bit like a film and you could have
09:00a continuum between that versus a very
09:02highly interactive game just like the
09:03experience and being in 3ds that might
09:05people are the first things it's done
09:06it's gonna be like you know those like
09:08performance art plays they have in New
09:11York where you're like you could you get
09:12to walk around the play yeah they're
09:13doing it exactly that's how movies are
09:15gonna be used right like you're in the
09:16scene and like oh where were you and
09:17that happened I was actually right by
09:19the guy who's right you can watch you
09:20can watch the movie over and over again
09:21from different positions and you know
09:24learn all the intricate details what's
09:26going on in an area so let's talk about
09:28in like business use cases for VR like
09:32training for sure I mean any you know
09:35for surgery for example if you're a
09:37mechanic um any kind of trained
09:40firefighters firefighters cops or
09:42whatever like yeah I think any kind of
09:44training environment especially one that
09:46has some degree of risk like
09:47construction for example right
09:49you can even simulate here's what would
09:51happen and this would be bad like if
09:52this burger falls on you and here's
09:53here's a good thing and in fact this is
09:55actually relieved to some you know
09:56neuroscientific theories about how
09:58consciousness evolved right like imagine
10:00you're a hunter-gatherer and you're you
10:02know running through jungle and there's
10:03a saber-toothed tiger that's chasing you
10:04right having some awareness of yourself
10:07whether you're large or small will tell
10:09you whether or not you can duck under
10:11that you know piece of lumber in front
10:13that's fallen or not right
10:15so some reasons you have a model of
10:17yourself in your head because you can
10:18simulate whether you died going this
10:20route or not and so kind of in the same
10:23way oculus as a training device can let
10:25us die a thousand times in virtual
10:28reality so that we don't die in real
10:30life so I think it candy risk situation
10:32so that's kind of interesting I also
10:33think you know why do you still travel
10:36in business like the most part it
10:38involves before before people exchange
10:40large sums of money like for sales or
10:42investment they like to look the other
10:44person in the eye and have an emotional
10:46connection right that's a great a large
10:49proportion of business travels around
10:51that emotional connection that goes with
10:53deal making and I think you know you
10:56with this I also think with even without
10:58VR with super high res you know modern
11:01video conferencing where you can make
11:02eye contact and things but I think also
11:05you can basically replace business
11:07travel yeah and so I think the key
11:09technical thing for that is going to be
11:10recording very with very high resolution
11:15the you know eyes and kind of emotions
11:19around the face and so on and so forth
11:20so you'd need like two directional
11:22cameras and stuff oh yeah also if you're
11:24wearing goggle that for in fact I was
11:25gonna get dramatically different they'll
11:26probably end up looking like regular
11:28glasses at some point Oh interesting
11:29okay yeah I mean just all this like all
11:31like this everything all the the cost
11:33cost and performance and form factor
11:35curves of all you know the hardware
11:37technology yeah even the Kinect is
11:39getting into a mobile phone form factor
11:41but yeah once you can record the faces
11:43confirmations and then transmit that
11:45then yes then it does replace business
11:48beings it replaces in fact all kinds of
11:50meetings I mean I had a editor post the
11:52other day where basically or a tweet
11:54where I kind of was talking about I
11:57think people do not appreciate the scale
12:00of online crowds right like what is a
12:02hundred thousand people a hundred
12:03thousand people is Michigan Stadium
12:05packed right it's an enormous number of
12:08people so you know when you say like a
12:10blog post has had a hundred thousand
12:12views the people who are watching that
12:14also don't really have a sense of it
12:15they see a counter but they don't get a
12:17sense of the scale and so I think a very
12:18interesting application is also going to
12:20be for oculus like any large reddit
12:23thread or something like that you'll
12:24have new kinds of online for up which
12:26give you the sense of what a popular
12:28event it is right you can be in a
12:30massive stadium and actually see all
12:31these other people and you can even
12:32combine some of the offline and online
12:33imagine kind of having that visual of
12:36seeing the stadium but then you also
12:37have like a search box and you can type
12:39in your interests and you're teleported
12:40within the stadium to people who are
12:41kind of like you nearby and then you can
12:43kind of talk to them or whatever you see
12:44chat bubbles appear over their heads so
12:46you can imagine you'll have to iterate
12:47on the experiences there but I think
12:48like stadium or like forum type
12:50applications that use oculus also be
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