00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6 & Z
00:02podcast today we're talking about a
00:04really interesting trend nootropics it's
00:06basically supplements that people can
00:07take to enhance your cognitive
00:08performance and we're talking about the
00:10broader trend as well as how it connects
00:12to other movements like the quantified
00:14self biohacking whether an argument can
00:16be made that we can compare what's
00:18happening now to what happened with the
00:20early days of personal computing at the
00:22homebrew club and whether the same thing
00:23will happen here to host this
00:25conversation we brought the founders of
00:27nutri box which develops manufactures
00:29and distributes prepackaged nootropics
00:30which are currently in the form of pills
00:32for baseline cognition staying awake and
00:34sleeping ok and moderating this
00:36discussion today will be a 16 Z's Kyle
00:39Russell hi everyone I'm Carl Russell I'm
00:42a partner in the deal and research team
00:43here at a 16 Z where I focus on virtual
00:45reality augmented reality and drones
00:47crypto in other categories that my
00:50colleagues roll up into something we
00:52call the weird stuff I'm also joined by
00:54my colleague saku who also works on a
00:56lot of the same topics here at a 16 Z as
00:58well as Jeff woo and Michael Brandt the
01:00cofounders of neutral box just so that
01:03our listeners can attach a voice to name
01:05which guys like to introduce yourselves
01:07and get started thanks Kyle I'm Jeffrey
01:09Wu co-founder and CEO of neutral box
01:12I'm Michael Brandt I'm co-founder on
01:14neutral box hi I'm second thoughts about
01:16now I'm a partner here at a 16 Z so you
01:20guys are working on a problem that I
01:21think a lot of people relate to which is
01:22trying to get a little bit more
01:24productivity out of your brain I think
01:26all of us have had two days where we're
01:27going I'm just not able to get through
01:30this work or you know I wish I could
01:32have just gotten through this project a
01:33little bit faster so I could have gotten
01:34started on this next thing and had more
01:36time free on my weekend when it comes to
01:38doing that I think a lot of times the
01:40off-the-shelf thing that everyone goes
01:41for is coffee like gotta get more work
01:43done let's let me drink some coffee does
01:44it like am I in the zone now I'm
01:46drinking coffee and and basically the
01:49entire notion of new Shabaks is
01:51predicated on the idea of like hey is
01:52there something better than coffee that
01:54like everyone should be having access to
01:56I anticipate so what's better than my
01:57daily cup of joe there's a lot of things
01:59that are better than your daily cup of
02:00jelly I mean with coffee in particular a
02:02lot of times people find that it can
02:04make them overly active or have a hard
02:07time focusing on things that maybe when
02:09it comes to purely stimulating your
02:11cognition that just like a jolt of
02:12energy isn't necessary
02:14the be-all-end-all there's other things
02:15that they can be better for instance
02:17maybe be more relaxed or less stressed
02:18or having better short-term working
02:21memory these are all other aspects of
02:22cognition besides just you know the pure
02:24energy of a cup of coffee so the broader
02:27category is nootropics sort of the
02:29colloquial term for cognitive enhancers
02:31or I guess a more scientific term for
02:33cognitive enhancers and this is it
02:36covers a broad spectrum of different
02:37compounds ranging from things that are
02:40considered dietary supplements to things
02:42that are considered pharmaceuticals the
02:45things that are considered research
02:46chemicals and broadly speaking
02:47nootropics work in three sort of main
02:49pathways one main pathway sort of
02:52increasing the different
02:54neurotransmitters levels in your brain
02:56and these can be sort of acetylcholine
02:57or dopamine things are associated with
03:01another main pathway is increasing blood
03:04flow to the brain you know your brain
03:06runs on glucose and oxygen so increasing
03:08the the carriers of those compounds a.k
03:12blood to brain increases the capacity so
03:14the horsepower available for the brain
03:17in the last main pathway that nootropics
03:20work is sort of anti sort of neuro
03:24protective effects there are different
03:26therapeutics for Alzheimer's different
03:28sort of cognitive impairments you know
03:30when you're looking at these things
03:31besides maybe you'll say pharmaceuticals
03:33which go through like the kind of
03:35complex FDA approval process and all the
03:37tears and tears of scientific work that
03:39has to go into proving a single drug in
03:40years of repeated studies for those the
03:44other you know kind of avenues to
03:46improving cognitive performance how do
03:48we know they work our process has been
03:50sort of driven from multiple different
03:52levels one just seeing what the hobbyist
03:54community really have sort of battle
03:57tested on N equals one sample size like
04:00personal trials and in reading those
04:01stories and in talking to those hobbyist
04:03hackers and experimenting with with them
04:05ourselves to actually looking at the
04:08Western clinical randomized sort of gold
04:11standard trials in the space I think the
04:14biggest concern in the whole nootropic
04:17space is is this you know too good to be
04:20is this placebo is a snake oil that was
04:23sort of our immediate concern as
04:24entrepreneurs looking at the space hey
04:27seems really cool we like the effects
04:29that we see on ourselves but you know is
04:32there actual a large body of rigorous
04:34science around this and in fact there is
04:37a lot of science around certain
04:39compounds that's the stuff that we at
04:41nature box focus on there's a whole
04:44universe of different things that people
04:45from different your take sort of Hindu
04:48medicine traditions from Chinese Tibetan
04:50medicines we focus on compounds that
04:53have been studied in sort of the
04:55pharmaceutical regimen actually so
04:58double-blind randomized controlled
04:59trials if you do the research you
05:02actually could be surprised with you
05:03know how rigorous and how statistically
05:06significant some of these results are
05:08and and those are the compounds that we
05:11work with at neutral box but that raises
05:13the question if these supplements are
05:15actually so effective how come they're
05:16not prescribed by doctors the
05:19pharmaceutical industry is a very
05:20interesting one where their business
05:22model is predicated on the government
05:24giving the company you know a 20-year
05:27monopoly on different compounds
05:29therefore there is an economic incentive
05:31for pharmaceutical companies to now put
05:34hundreds of millions - a billion dollars
05:36into Rd to bring new compounds to market
05:39so the thing with nootropics is that a
05:41lot of nootropic compounds fall under
05:43open domain or are well understood thank
05:46generic supplements aka generic
05:48supplements exactly so they cannot be
05:50patented therefore there's not a
05:53monopolistic sort of end goal for
05:55companies pharmaceutical eyes if I just
05:59invented a word these these supplements
06:01see through the sales process at a
06:03regular drug would go through correct at
06:06neutral box we have a couple MD PhDs on
06:07our team we're learning our own clinical
06:09trials on on on these compounds and we
06:12see long-term that we're not only
06:14increasing the science and pushing
06:16forward our understanding nootropics but
06:18also being the most legitimate welcome
06:21mat for people interested in generics to
06:24also answer your question Saku about why
06:28our if these things work why are they
06:30not pharmaceuticals I think a big part
06:32of the supplements industry in general
06:33is predicated on the notion that people
06:36should just have basic access to like
06:37fundamental nutrition or fundamental
06:40that exist out there that those things
06:42rather than being pharmaceuticals by
06:44default they should just be available so
06:47there's there's supplements that are
06:49just available you should be able to buy
06:51gins and you should be able to buy
06:52protein powder that shouldn't be a
06:55pharmaceutical and that there's
06:57basically increasing research done on
06:59that class of compounds that are
07:01regarded as supplements and generally
07:03regarded as safe there's increasing
07:05research on how those things actually
07:06can drive cognitive improvement but
07:10there's they're not pharmaceuticals it's
07:12publicly available and it's interesting
07:14you say that because the actual
07:15supplements industry doesn't have that
07:17kind of transparency all the time the
07:19things that are sold as supplements are
07:22mixture compounds like proprietary burns
07:24and things like that and even they don't
07:25have data to back up what they're doing
07:27and they're not required to submit it
07:29right yeah so Michael and I have
07:31literally visited and dozens of contract
07:34manufacturers basically people who are
07:35manufacturing supplements for in your
07:38big-box retailers we've seen people that
07:41manufacture soft gels for your visors
07:44and mercs of the world so we've become
07:46experts and production and how business
07:49is done as usual in supplements industry
07:50as it currently exists and the
07:53proprietary blend moniker as you
07:56mentioned Saku is essentially a code
07:58word for industry that whatever's on our
08:01shelf at the time we can just dump in
08:03into your capsules and usually if you
08:06look at the proprietary blend list it's
08:07just like 17 different compounds and as
08:09long as there is some minut trace of you
08:13know something in there then they can
08:14put it as a proprietary blend and it you
08:17know I think from a marketing standpoint
08:21the business might you know claim but
08:23hey this is a special ratio of compounds
08:25that's really off you skating it's not
08:28going to be a consistent blend
08:29necessarily that you take every single
08:31time and I think we are super keen on
08:35the fact that our formulas are open
08:37source you should know what you're
08:40taking into your body we think that's
08:41just critical to your health
08:44decision-making so soccer here inside a
08:4716 see you surfaced the nootropic
08:50community to ask me this all aware of
08:52you know what they were all up to
08:54where are those discussions happening
08:55and what are they doing with these
08:56compounds the big community of new
08:58traffic ceases the reddit the subreddit
09:00all new topics it's probably going about
09:0160,000 subscribers at the moment which
09:03is it's gonna grow very fast they have
09:06this whole wiki full of stacks which is
09:07combinations of new topics that they
09:09think work really well together so
09:11what's your stack is like you know what
09:12are you what are you having today what's
09:14your mixture what are you going for it's
09:15just like this folk dollars just
09:17developed and share their results with
09:19other people in the forum which is how
09:20you get the accumulated knowledge it's
09:22it kind of reminds me of people building
09:24their own gaming PC's on the gaming
09:26subreddit right so it's you know hey
09:28here's the parts I was using I got these
09:30results but the thing is like this folk
09:32knowledge it's not properly quantified
09:34and it's not very transparent even
09:36though there is something there I think
09:38what nature box of data is like but
09:40somehow science and data to it to kind
09:42of bring that out of the duck I love the
09:44analogy to the gaming rigs we recently
09:47published a byline on TechCrunch
09:50comparing the biohackers of the debt of
09:52today to the homebrew club of 70s and
09:5580s where a bunch of hobbyists were
09:57figuring out hey we have these computer
10:00parts we have monitors we have these
10:01teletype terminals how do we put them
10:04what can we even do with these things
10:06right some of the most early programs
10:09were making beeping music I don't know
10:12there atari is right like these were
10:13super raw components and we see that
10:17similar behavior in the biohacking
10:19community today when we see all this
10:22excitement going around in nootropics
10:25and it reminds us that maybe just like
10:27with computers maybe nootropics and
10:30biohacking actually makes sense for
10:31everyone that in one lens you look at it
10:34and it's 60,000 people nerding out on
10:37reddit about their personalized stacks
10:39but on another hand it's like hey maybe
10:41this is the tip of an iceberg for
10:42something really big and that we're
10:44seeing a larger trend around human
10:46enhancement that there's gonna be
10:47multiple billion-dollar companies in the
10:50space that there's gonna be real really
10:52interesting stuff really novel new
10:54science ways of understanding our body
10:57and ways of affecting it to further the
11:00analogy to hardware it's like you think
11:03of a typical computer system and there's
11:06usually a way to read from
11:07in a way to write from it or you can
11:10read data you can you can save a file
11:11you can write to it what if the analogy
11:13carries to the human body where you're
11:15able to read from your body read signals
11:18and then intelligently affect them
11:21affect you're able to write to your body
11:23essentially and make changes lower your
11:25level of stress increase your level of
11:27vitamin D understand your level of
11:29sensitivity to caffeine be aware of your
11:31predisposition to something and when you
11:34think about it that way it's like wow
11:36that that should be for everyone that's
11:37not just sixty thousand people on a
11:39subreddit everyone can benefit from that
11:41coming out of those home group clubs was
11:43the Apple one which kind of crystallized
11:45the idea that it's computers aren't just
11:48going to be these things where it's
11:49either these big giant machines that
11:51companies buy or these little machines
11:52where you just kind of tinker but there
11:54will be a mainstream version that is
11:57more broadly useful can be abused for
12:00work but also for entertainment you know
12:02what what it makes the jump from people
12:04hacking around with different stacks to
12:06something that could improve the lives
12:08of many many more people who don't
12:10necessarily want to experiment with
12:11their bodies but just want something
12:12that they know like input one pill
12:15output like this much more work what I
12:18think Apple did very well was bundling
12:21into a very seamless convenient
12:22experience where a lot of the friction
12:24of acquiring 17 different computer parts
12:26or abstracted away I think that's the
12:29big problem we're solving
12:30not only just developing and creating
12:33the best you know understood nootropics
12:36out there but also can you know putting
12:38that together in a convenient easy to
12:40use easy to access package where you
12:42know you can actually trust that we're
12:46sourcing the highest quality raw
12:47ingredients going through all the heavy
12:49metal sort of adulterant testing and
12:52having that reliably mail to your door
12:55every single month things that don't
12:57require your doctor's prescription I
12:59mean regarded is that by the FDA is as
13:01safe and and sellable as supplements you
13:05can pick it up at 7-eleven you can sell
13:06it online you can just buy it so if
13:09these pills are kind of you know the
13:12approximate Apple one of nutrifix
13:15the ones that you're making and you know
13:16letting people subscribe to what's the
13:19Apple - is it different com
13:21or is it making it even more accessible
13:23like what does that look like one there
13:26is a bunch of super super exciting
13:28compounds out there too it's playing
13:31with different form factors one form
13:33factor we're super excited about is our
13:34go cubes our chewable coffee cubes that
13:37has done sort of 150 percent of its
13:39prief crowdfunding goal on IndieGoGo so
13:43I think unique form factors interesting
13:45form factors is another way we look at
13:48sort of our Apple 2 and then also just
13:52developing and figuring out ways to
13:56actually be quantitative with with with
13:59the whole space the biggest criticism
14:02that you can level at the space is that
14:05one it's very self-reported it's very
14:07sort of subjective and how can we bring
14:10actual objective metrics to this space
14:13so you can actually measure improvements
14:15and measure the difference so one area
14:17that we are pretty interested in is the
14:21idea of leveraging the computer that
14:23everyone has in their pocket to collect
14:25more data about themselves and then get
14:28here's what you should be doing based on
14:30you know how you're living so how are
14:32you thinking about incorporating like
14:33that kind of thinking into you know
14:36people's improving people's cognitive
14:38performance I think this the notion that
14:40hey there's going to be a ton of sensors
14:42that are gonna be constantly on you
14:44super exciting from a quantified self
14:46health perspective this is sort of
14:48unprecedented in terms of the amount of
14:50access now that we can collect on
14:53anyone's daily routines as Jeff
14:56mentioned there's this wealth of data
14:57that we're able to access that
15:00individuals are able to access due to
15:01just the devices in their pocket or
15:04ancillary devices to that that can
15:06measure your posture your breathing your
15:08foot steps per day your heart rate and
15:10one of the other really interesting
15:12areas is just mental state so there's
15:15hobbyists there's this notion of the
15:17quantified self movement where people
15:19track in very scrupulous detail what's
15:22going on with them every step of the day
15:24we've seen this happen in the fitness
15:26health dieting space but people are also
15:30hobbyists again are getting a lot of
15:32value out of tracking their mental state
15:35productive of my feeling today what's my
15:36mood today so that's something that
15:38we're interested in unlocking as well
15:40helping people track that in a in an
15:43objective reliable routinely routine
15:46type of way it's also creating real
15:49actual data or recommendations on top of
15:53this data you know how I see it is that
15:55sure we have a lot of data and I like to
15:58call a ton of data data porn like it's
16:00it's cool to see but what are we
16:02actually doing about it how do we
16:04process massive amounts of data and
16:06produce interesting signals interesting
16:08correlations on top of that data in ways
16:10that actually can recommend actions and
16:12change the decisions that you make in
16:15your daily routines yeah sometimes
16:17supplements may work for some people but
16:18no others but we at the moment have a
16:20way of telling what supplement will be
16:22and with data you can change that yeah I
16:25think yeah there's the post facto data
16:27which is sort of running N equals one
16:30experiments on yourself and another's
16:32realm of data that hasn't been tapped
16:34into from the supplement sort of health
16:37regimen perspective is a priori data and
16:40that data we consider your genomic data
16:44your biome data and sort of going back
16:46to our human as the next platform human
16:50as a hardware analogy here you have
16:52companies like 23andme and you biome
16:54essentially serving as api's now that
16:56open up capability of reading what your
17:00genome is reading what your biome is and
17:02we're super interested in capturing and
17:07informing our stacks with your post
17:09facto data as well as your a priority
17:11data so given you know let's say the
17:15five-year vision of there's going to be
17:17more data about ourselves our bodies how
17:20we're feeling do you think that over
17:22time maybe you like why not best with
17:24what you in particular need not
17:25necessarily just a generic option so
17:27absolutely personalization will happen
17:29across all segments of the economy right
17:31there's already personalization for your
17:33financial advice or just personalization
17:35on what things you want to buy from
17:37Amazon and it stands to reason that the
17:40way personalization for things you
17:41consume and things that optimize your
17:43productivity and performance so I think
17:45that's a larger opportunity that people
17:48are just sewing away
17:49- with the quantified self in nootropics
17:51i think that when a lot of people think
17:52of the idea of a cognitive enhancer or
17:55smart drug however you want to refer to
17:56it cochlea colloquially people tend to
18:00think of you know like limitless of this
18:02drug that maybe it's is it that like
18:04adderall I don't know I've never taken
18:05it so but it makes you look smarter and
18:08you're able to process more information
18:10and all that what is the experience like
18:13when you consume one of these is it you
18:14know you're up and at them you're really
18:16intensely focused on something what it
18:18was it feel like there's a lot of
18:19different ways of thinking about
18:22cognitive enhancement because there's a
18:23lot of different ways our brains work
18:25right so you can think of enhancing your
18:27cognition with respect to creativity or
18:28worth respect to focus I mean those
18:31might be two different things actually
18:33they might be competitive enhancing one
18:35might decrease the other you know for an
18:37afternoon one way we think about is you
18:39think of the Red Bulls and the energy
18:42drinks and and things like that is like
18:43you know it's snowboarder racing down a
18:45mount and jumping off of half pipes but
18:48when you think of hitting flow state
18:51with your mental output it looks more
18:55like a surgeon or a chess master so
18:58there's a sense of alertness but it's
19:01not a overly stimulated sense of
19:03alertness it's a calm cool and
19:05collective sense of alertness so what's
19:08the value of being incredibly pumped and
19:10you know feel like your heart is racing
19:11if what you're trying to do is sit at
19:12your desk and crank through writing a
19:14document or preparing a presentation
19:15yeah and hey it might be great for
19:17brainstorm if you yeah go go chug - Red
19:20Bulls it might be good for certain types
19:22of things but I think in general when
19:24we're thinking about cognition you're
19:26spending several hours you're writing
19:28something you're reading something
19:29you're coding something you're designing
19:31something and there's this high-level
19:32thought going into it and it helps to be
19:34able to be alert but not overly active
19:37there is a sense like this is a
19:39well-documented psychological phenomenon
19:42it's called the York's Dodson curve
19:44where if you're if you're - activated
19:46you actually your performance on mental
19:49tasks decreases if you're if you're
19:51overly alert you do worse I think I
19:54think one thing - that is good to think
19:57about is like imagine you on your best
19:58day or imagine you when you're like
19:59really prepared for the exam you're
20:02exam you're really crushing it what if
20:04you could have access to that mental
20:06state like every afternoon reliably
20:09that's really interesting so do does it
20:11make so you can learn Mandarin in a day
20:13like in limitless no not not necessarily
20:15but it what it does allow you to do is
20:17access a like a best version of yourself
20:20and I think one thing that's also really
20:21interesting when you mention limitless
20:24is limitless is the movie is this movie
20:26about one guy who gets super smart and
20:27takes over the world but in reality it
20:32might be interesting to imagine a world
20:33where it's not one guy who's massively
20:36smarter than everyone what if across all
20:38of society everyone is a little bit
20:40higher functioning you know that that
20:42raises an interesting possibility which
20:44is you know products aren't necessarily
20:46distributed evenly among the society so
20:49is there an issue with you know some
20:51people have access to something that
20:52improves cognitive performance while
20:54others are left behind maybe I saw
20:56recently there's a Android phone
20:59available for $10 and you can you can
21:03buy it and have access to a smartphone
21:04the internet Google at your fingertips
21:06and that sounds to me like complete
21:09democratization of technology so I think
21:12that in general for new trends you will
21:13see an early adopter curve where new
21:15technologies will be more expensive and
21:16available to an elite group of people
21:19but I think that over time what you see
21:22is if these things are legitimately
21:23useful then they end up spreading and
21:25becoming accessible to all levels of
21:28society and to riff on that I think one
21:31interesting other interesting computer
21:33analogies Metcalfe's law the the value
21:35of a network exponentially increases by
21:39the number of sort of note valuable
21:41nodes in a network right and this is
21:43this is the description of what happened
21:46when they you know brought about
21:47Ethernet and you know a couple of people
21:49idea that cards not that useful if
21:50iPhone not in the office is a connected
21:52computer suddenly everyone's it's
21:54facilitating a lot more communication if
21:56everyone in the building has it if
21:57everyone in your industry has it what
21:59does that mean this is like in complete
22:01contrast to doping in sports where if
22:03someone takes a you know your
22:05disadvantage in everyone else but in
22:07this case if you make if you make
22:09yourself a little bit smart so you're
22:10actually just helping the people around
22:12you yeah basically we see human
22:16and it's not it's not a non zero or a
22:19zero-sum game we think that if Michael
22:22you're smarter of Saku in count and
22:24everyone you know in this building and
22:26in the world was a little bit smarter
22:27the whole world has is you know stands
22:31for example like wearing glasses you're
22:34boosting your personal effectiveness in
22:38some way but do I consider that you know
22:41crowding out my ability to compete with
22:43you know it's I think it's like you're
22:45going to your full potential and you're
22:47adding your own knowledge and insights
22:49back into the world back into the system
22:50this was a great discussion guys thank
22:53you for your time and thanks for coming
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