00:00today's episode of the a6 and z podcast
00:02recorded a month ago focus is on the
00:04refugee crisis as well as where tech may
00:06come in the conversation is co-hosted by
00:08a six in Z policy team partner Matt
00:10Spence who was previously Deputy
00:12Assistant Secretary of Defense of the
00:14Lina Sergey ATAR who is a co-founder of
00:16the Karim Foundation which focuses on
00:18education development and smart aid for
00:21displaced communities in Syria and in
00:23neighboring countries and finally we
00:25have Tony blinken the current Deputy
00:27Secretary of State who has focused on
00:28the global refugee crisis before we
00:31consider the role of tech we began by
00:33talking about the sheer scope and
00:34magnitude of the problem something no
00:36single conversation can do justice who
00:38are the refugees beyond statistics it's
00:41really important to put this in
00:42perspective you know we throw around
00:43words like crisis very easily but this
00:46is a global crisis and it is of historic
00:50proportions think about it this way we
00:53are now dealing with the largest single
00:55wave of human displacement around the
00:57world since World War two more people on
00:59the move because they are displaced from
01:01their homes and if you put all of these
01:04people together who are now currently
01:05displaced into one country it would be
01:08the 25th or twenty fourth largest
01:10bigger than South Korea bigger than
01:12Spain and what's in the headlines of
01:14course is Syria but its global in nature
01:16we have refugees Afghanistan Pakistan
01:19Bangladesh a dozen countries in Africa
01:23and of course Latin America as well and
01:25because it's a global crisis it actually
01:27demands a global response no single
01:30country can deal with this effectively
01:32on its own why is it so bad now like
01:34what has happened that the crisis is so
01:35profound more than almost any other time
01:37in history I think you've got a
01:38confluence of factors one is that
01:40unfortunately we're seeing more conflict
01:42in different places but also and
01:45ironically in a sense the spread of
01:47information has actually enough way
01:50exacerbated the crisis because people
01:53are now more aware of what's going on
01:55outside of where they're living they're
01:58more aware that life can be different
01:59somewhere else they're in greater touch
02:03with people who have already left and
02:04have gone somewhere else and that too
02:06creates a sort of pull factor that
02:09didn't exist as much in the past when
02:11people were more closed off
02:13I mean it is a global crisis and
02:15millions and millions of people are
02:17displaced right now and they come from
02:19all over the world but for Syria
02:21specifically we have a situation where
02:24we have over five million Syrian
02:26refugees outside the country over six
02:29million internally displaced which means
02:32that there are more than half of the
02:34original population of Syria now does
02:38not live in their of their homes people
02:40don't realize that before 2011 the
02:43number of Syrian refugees was zero and
02:45so it's this huge crisis at this
02:50staggering scale that happened very very
02:53quickly and I think that's one of the
02:55reasons why it takes more precedence in
02:58the in the media in addition to the way
03:01that the crisis unfolded especially with
03:05the waves of refugees going from Turkey
03:08to Greece and through Europe and what we
03:10saw last year and all of the drownings
03:12and all of the people in these camps and
03:15this problem is continuing because of
03:18the conflict that continues in Syria and
03:21I think that's one of the most important
03:22reasons that people have to keep in mind
03:25is that this is not some kind of natural
03:26disaster this is a man-made conflict
03:29man-made reasons and if the violence
03:32stopped especially the airstrikes the
03:35refugee crisis would at least be stemmed
03:37and a lot of refugees that I know would
03:39be able to return to their homes Lina
03:41you talked about the flood of refugees
03:43and I think people have heard a lot of
03:45the statistics but could you give me a
03:47sense of who are they where are they
03:49what were their jobs before they became
03:51refugees what could they do
03:53when resettled somewhere else in a more
03:55stable society and even socially
03:57economically it depends on where you're
03:59looking at if you're looking at the
04:00immediate host countries and even then
04:02it would depend on where they are the
04:04closer to the border they are the less
04:06money they had to flee with probably
04:09it's the least pleasant to be living in
04:12the IDP camps that are inside Syrian
04:15borders and then the refugee camps that
04:17are right outside Syrian borders the
04:19further away you get from Syria the more
04:21you see that it's really Syria's middle
04:23class that was able to flee into your
04:27something that people don't realize
04:28watching the images of Syrian refugees
04:30arriving to Europe which is an extremely
04:34difficult journey but actually has cost
04:36these refugee families thousands and
04:38thousands of dollars to actually get a
04:40place on a Smuggler's boat
04:42it's the businessmen the educated the
04:45university students and people who had a
04:48very good life in Syria lived in host
04:51countries for a few years
04:52watch their savings being depleted and
04:54used really the last of their savings to
04:56be able to take that journey when you
04:59get to the United States the snapshot of
05:02refugees is very diverse
05:04it goes from you know people that were
05:06able to get through the whole vetting
05:07process and get here and some of these
05:09people have never you know traveled
05:11outside Syria before and are finding
05:14life in the United States very
05:16alienating I mean it comes to my own
05:19parents who are American but had to flee
05:22Aleppo in 2012 and both of them are
05:24doctors but when they came here in 2012
05:27they came with their four suitcases it
05:29wasn't their choice that's a perspective
05:32that I personally see as a daughter of
05:35immigrants who came in the 70s and came
05:38with the immigrant mentality and wanting
05:40to make a better future for themselves
05:42and their families I'm also a daughter
05:44of immigrants and I was born and raised
05:46in the US but my family my extended
05:49family my mom's side was in Uganda and
05:52they were kicked out during the 70's
05:54with Idi Amin my mom's sister went to
05:56Sweden and my grandparents went to the
05:59UK and I think that's the other side of
06:02you mentioned the impact on receiving
06:04countries and communities can we talk a
06:06little bit about that like what some of
06:08the fears and concerns are and what the
06:10twist top-of-mind for folks if you visit
06:12Lebanon Jordan Turkey these are the
06:14countries that have received the most
06:15Syrian refugees because as Lina said
06:18there they're the neighboring countries
06:19and put this in perspective in Lebanon
06:22today somewhere between a quarter and a
06:24third of the entire population is a
06:26Syrian refugee there are more Syrian
06:29children in Lebanese public schools than
06:31there are 11 YZ children in these
06:34imagine the burden that this puts on
06:36these countries transpose it to the
06:38United States the number of refugees
06:40in Lebanon if you transpose that the
06:42United States it would be the equivalent
06:43of us taking 70 million people and you
06:47know the debates we're having about
06:48taking 10,000 Syrian right so these
06:51countries are bearing a very significant
06:53burden and Lina is exactly right
06:55ultimately the way to end this challenge
06:58and problem is to end the civil war in
07:00Syria and to stop the bombing and we're
07:02working 25 hours a day trying to do that
07:06even just getting a cessation of
07:07hostilities to take that pressure off
07:08and get humanitarian assistance flowing
07:10but as that's happening what's driving
07:13them when they get to Jordan Lebanon
07:15Turkey or two things one is access to
07:17education they want their kids to be in
07:19school and second is the ability to work
07:21what you're seeing is so many people and
07:24so many middle class people who've left
07:26take their savings with them 90% are not
07:29in refugee camps they are actually
07:31integrated into host communities that
07:33means they have to pay for housing and
07:35that means if they can't work they're
07:36going to deplete their savings and
07:38they're going to reach a point where the
07:39money's gone it's very hard in many of
07:42these places for adults to work as a
07:44policy matter to get countries to change
07:46their policies to allow people to work
07:48but in the absence of that it drives
07:50kids into the gray market to do jobs
07:53that it would be harder to detect that
07:56means they're not in school
07:57and even when they want to go to school
07:59they may not have access because the
08:01schools are overburdened so we've been
08:03working very hard on that getting access
08:04to classrooms there's been real progress
08:06in all three of these countries but
08:08you're still leaving lots of kids out of
08:10school and the risk of a lost generation
08:12so we have to look at also how we can
08:15help these countries at first asylum and
08:17first refuge meet the burden and then
08:19how we can do more including in the
08:21United States to resettle more people
08:23but Lina said something really important
08:25to so many people who are in this
08:28situation it's not that they want to
08:30come here or want to come to to Europe
08:32or Turkey Lebanon Jordan they're their
08:34highest aspiration is to come home
08:36they're not they don't want to be
08:37perceived as a burden which I think a
08:39lot of people portray about but
08:41tragically here's what we know civil war
08:44is like the one in Syria
08:46don't end overnight on average we're
08:49looking at a decade and in the case of
08:51something as complex as Syria when you
08:53actors involved well beyond a decade and
08:56syria's now in year six of the Civil War
08:58how did that reality play out with
09:00countries and some of the examples we
09:02just right now have a situation where
09:05there are millions of Afghan refugees in
09:07Pakistan who are finding the climate in
09:10Pakistan to be less hospitable than it
09:12was who are being driven back into
09:14needless to say Afghanistan's not in the
09:17ideal situation to take in more of its
09:19own citizens at this point that's
09:21creating a whole new crisis you talked
09:23about the sheer numbers of people coming
09:26here and and for Americans Americans
09:28both want to be helpful but are scared
09:30and one make sure we know who are coming
09:32in the idea of vetting has been very
09:34important most people don't understand
09:35actually how intense the vetting is yeah
09:38and I would actually add to that it's
09:40not always gonna be the example of two
09:42parents we're doctors but there are
09:44people who are productive members of
09:47society in so many other ways how do you
09:49know and do you have is it good to even
09:51try to is that the right thing to do to
09:52try to filter that well a couple of
09:54things first we have to keep in mind one
09:56basic fact is that the overwhelming
09:58majority of refugees people who are
10:02leaving everything behind putting their
10:05lives in danger to come cross an ocean
10:08put themselves in the hands of human
10:09traffickers even these are people who
10:12are fleeing violence not perpetrating
10:14violence and it's really important to
10:16just start with that basic premise
10:17you're right because there's an
10:19association in people as mind it's
10:20exactly the reverse if they are fleeing
10:22terrorism they're not terrorists second
10:25when it comes to the United States we're
10:27almost in a unique position because the
10:30overwhelming majority of refugees who
10:31come here are actually referred in the
10:33first instance by the United Nations and
10:35they've gone through an entire process
10:37of vetting first by the United Nations
10:40and one of its agencies then when they
10:43referred to us they go through our
10:45process which is extraordinary in its
10:48focus and depth we have multiple
10:51security agencies that are doing very
10:54detailed background checks
10:55investigations of anyone seeking to come
10:58here on average we had no idea it takes
11:01two years for someone to come to the
11:04United States and we're actually data
11:05today does like the FBI
11:07you've got the alphabet soup of agencies
11:10that are involved in this in different
11:12ways not just the State Department but
11:15the FBI the CIA the NTC is TC the other
11:19intelligence agencies all pulling
11:22whatever data is available interviews by
11:25people who are trained in the skillset
11:27interviews of people who know the person
11:30applying to be a refugee very very
11:33sophisticated work biometrics and all of
11:36this is pulled together and marshaled
11:38together and job number one for these
11:41agencies for the government is security
11:43because even though again as I said
11:4699.9% are people fleeing violence not
11:50perpetrating it we want to make sure
11:52that that point one percent doesn't get
11:54in and that's a lot of information is
11:56there more that either data analytics or
11:59tech or other things can do to help more
12:01accurately assess what these threats are
12:03yeah the short answer is yes and it's
12:05something that as sophisticated as the
12:07system is as much work and effort as
12:08already goes into it we're constantly
12:10looking for ways to perfect it and one
12:12of the ways is through technology what's
12:14striking to me is how much more vetting
12:16goes on there than it does for any other
12:19job any other bringing a child into this
12:22world I mean there is no sense of that
12:24level of detail your existing and what's
12:27the other thing is it's important to
12:29recognize too that if you were a
12:31terrorist trying to come into this
12:32country the last way you would come in
12:35is as a refugee because it's the hardest
12:37way to get into the United States you
12:39probably more likely to come in through
12:40some other mechanism as a tourist yeah
12:42we're talking a lot right now on what's
12:44happening during migration what happens
12:47post resettlement there's a lot of
12:49technologies and new companies out there
12:50that have a lot of things around like
12:52mobile visa is we have a company in our
12:54own portfolio teleport that does what
12:56are some of the technologies that are
12:57post settlement this is look this is
12:58critical because the two things one if
13:01you're in a country of first for future
13:04Sodom like Turkey Jordan Lebanon as I
13:06mentioned what people desperately need
13:08our access to education for their kids
13:10and access to employment for the parents
13:13in fact visiting in Beirut one of the
13:17community centers established by in this
13:19case Caritas a Catholic relief
13:21to support refugees from Syria you'd go
13:24from room to room and in the first room
13:26the men the climate in that room could
13:29best be described as depressed and the
13:31reason was these men had been stripped
13:34of their dignity because they couldn't
13:35work didn't have access to jobs couldn't
13:37provide for their families and they felt
13:40it and then you moved on to the women in
13:42the next room and there was a frantic
13:44energy in that room but that was because
13:45they were desperate to figure out how to
13:47get their kids or keep their kids in
13:49school the good news was when you moved
13:51to talk to the children they still had
13:52that innate optimism that comes from
13:54being a child but technology can play a
13:57usual so at just a sight one example in
13:59education these classrooms are
14:02overwhelmed an overburdened in in these
14:04countries they can't keep up with the
14:06indigenous demand much less refugees now
14:09huge efforts have been made and all
14:10three of those countries have done
14:12incredible work to actually create
14:14greater access but they're still big
14:16gaps so there are distance learning
14:19platforms that can make a huge
14:21difference and sometimes this can be run
14:23through UN agencies and other and NGOs
14:26but distance learning you mean like
14:28Udacity and like MOOCs or if you can get
14:31the hardware into the hands of children
14:35and then you can get the software on the
14:37hardware with the right curriculum then
14:40you can actually prevent a gap from
14:42growing and it creates a stopgap while
14:45you're trying to find space for kids in
14:46the formal education system we're seeing
14:49that start to have start to have an
14:51impact that's just one way of doing
14:53things same on the on the employment
14:55front and again the numbers are not big
14:57but the ability of some people to be
15:01able through the internet to actually be
15:04employed at a distance to be making
15:06something or providing some service that
15:09can then be delivered through the
15:11internet that can take some burden off
15:13of the local job market and create
15:16opportunities that that wouldn't
15:17otherwise exist now it's still a
15:19relatively small thing and it tends to
15:21to cater to more skilled people but we
15:24see this working as well we're trying to
15:25expand that okay so the story that we've
15:27been reading a lot in the news and I'd
15:28read two articles in both wired and New
15:31York Times in the past year it's a story
15:33about the role of the smartphone in
15:35and what people are calling this modern
15:37migration there's mapping there's GPS
15:39there's messaging there's apps that help
15:42people find a place to sleep my former
15:44colleague at Wired she wrote this line
15:46that almost every need is met with
15:48mobile but the flip side of this is that
15:50there's also a question for me about who
15:53has access to these mobile phones is it
15:55people who could afford them in their
15:56what about confiscation of mobile phones
15:58at checkpoints people asking for
16:00passwords to your Facebook accounts or
16:02mobile phones are also surveillance
16:04devices so there's sort of a
16:05double-edged sword here I'd love to hear
16:07your guys's thoughts and how mobile
16:08phones are playing a unique role in this
16:10particular modern migration yeah well I
16:12think you've really touched on some of
16:13the key aspects of this there is
16:15connectivity that otherwise wouldn't
16:17exist that means a lot of things it
16:20means that families are actually in
16:21touch with one another that's vitally
16:24important whether it's families that are
16:25themselves in the refugee flow or family
16:29members who may already have gotten to
16:31another country even though they're
16:32underfunded and overburdened there still
16:34are a lot of resources out there but if
16:36people don't know it if they can't get
16:38the information it doesn't do them any
16:40good so having that kind of connectivity
16:42and getting that kind of information
16:43flow going is is vital it's a basic life
16:46support system I can't overestimate how
16:50important the smartphone has been to
16:52Syrian refugees and even to the Syrian
16:55Revolution in general and social media
16:57and YouTube and connecting information
17:01getting information out from inside
17:03Syria recording protests recording
17:07atrocities recording airstrikes
17:10recording basically everything that
17:12journalists cannot access inside Syria
17:15because of the regime's closing off
17:19Syria really to any kind of outside
17:21media that is not overseen by the
17:24government so I think that we've seen an
17:27arc with using technology and can in
17:30terms of connections from the beginning
17:32of you know the Arab Spring Syrian
17:34uprising all the way through the refugee
17:38crisis refugees the most important
17:42object that they have is their
17:45smartphone one of the economic
17:49smartphones are chopping into smugglers
17:51and traffickers business there's a
17:53really popular Facebook group that's
17:54called and this is a title smuggle
17:56yourself to Europe without a trafficker
17:58and that supposed to be the most popular
17:59Facebook group among refugees they kept
18:02make the journey from Turkey to Greece
18:04without it people were using GPS
18:07coordination systems to connect with
18:08different boats and different people
18:11families often get separated during the
18:13journey the only way that they can
18:15connect is through their phones one
18:17Syrian refugee that I'm in connection
18:20with in Istanbul she says what's up is
18:22everything I can't live without what's
18:24up that's the most important thing I
18:27have I don't know any Syrian family
18:29including my own that doesn't have their
18:31family whatsapp group because that's the
18:33only way that you can actually see each
18:34other because people don't meet each
18:37other anymore inside Syria so it's very
18:40very important as a piece of connection
18:43and also as for documentation one of the
18:46saddest uses of a phone that I've ever
18:49witnessed was in the ultime IDP camp
18:54that's in northern Syria which I visited
18:56in late 2012 20,000 people have been
18:59there in that camp now for over five
19:02years and they live still in plastic
19:04tents and in the mud and in the dust and
19:07they don't have access to bathrooms or
19:10heating systems or really any kind of
19:13basic necessities for years and one of
19:15the women lost both of her children in a
19:19camp fire and and she they there was a
19:23fire in her tent within a few minutes
19:25she lost both of her children and all
19:28she had left of them were the pictures
19:30of them on her phone and when I met her
19:33she told me her whole story and she said
19:35I can never lose this phone because
19:37that's all I have left of them I lost my
19:39home I lost my family I lost my kids and
19:42all I have left is my phone it's
19:43heartbreaking from the government side
19:46the phone can actually use to help with
19:48civilian casualties you know so if you
19:50are a refugee being victim to strikes
19:53that are happening using the phones to
19:54report when you hear airplanes overhead
19:57or drones overhead or things like that
20:00can communicate a huge amount of
20:01information I felt when I was in the
20:02government for government policymakers
20:04there's this assumption from the outside
20:06that our intelligence collection is is
20:08NIP attend and Journal as we get
20:11information from everywhere but it's
20:12really the individual stories that you
20:13get from people which can show where
20:15should we devote resources and what
20:16should we be doing and I think one of
20:17the things that we're seeing too and
20:19Lena mentioned this as well if you're
20:21trying to monitor a ceasefire or a
20:23cessation of hostilities sometimes the
20:25groups that would normally do that can't
20:26get in don't have access but the people
20:29do they're there and just as you've said
20:31Matt there's also a two-way
20:33communication possibility so that if
20:35people are in harm's way they can
20:37hopefully be warned and can get out of
20:39the way or conversely they can report
20:41that something's happening that we
20:42didn't know about and maybe we can maybe
20:44we can help stop it if they're equipped
20:46with a smart phone they're able to
20:47report in real-time whether there's a
20:49violation I mean one of the things that
20:51that just struck for me and made it
20:53personal as is you know when I would go
20:55to the Middle East I went there 30 times
20:56and in three years and I was talking to
20:58a senior Jordanian efficently said look
21:00I understand the protection and you have
21:01the best planes and the best
21:02intelligence in the world but it's like
21:04do you know what Matt what I really need
21:05I need four million jobs I remember we
21:07were at you know an office near the
21:09Saatchi refugee camp and we're meeting
21:12with a group of woman they first showed
21:13us their mobile phones and they showed
21:15us how they were using Facebook and
21:17other online platforms
21:18to sell handmade goods when you're
21:20sitting in the Situation Room those are
21:22not the types of things you're trying to
21:23think about I think that's basically the
21:26biggest issue is that there was never
21:28enough listening to the refugees and to
21:32the communities what we saw in zachetti
21:35was basically the director the UNHCR
21:37director of zachetti camp said we came
21:39to build a camp and the Syrians came to
21:42build a city and it took that long to
21:44realize that these Syrian refugees are
21:46coming from a background educated have
21:50funds fleeing violence and they weren't
21:53going to sit around in a camp waiting
21:55for their - UNHCR meals a day and sit
21:59there in a camp for the 17 average years
22:01they are going to set up shop they are
22:03going to trade and build an economy an
22:06internal economy and and make things and
22:08sell things and figure it out because
22:10that's who they are and we see that
22:13the board with Syrian refugees and
22:14that's it's really heartbreaking because
22:17I feel like even the word innovation or
22:19you know apps for humanitarian aid have
22:22become almost meaningless because
22:24everybody thinks that they can create an
22:26app and it's going to solve the problem
22:28or we can paste the word innovation on
22:30anything and that basically becomes
22:33innovative and it's it's really not the
22:35most innovative solutions are coming
22:37from the people themselves and this is
22:40what we're seeing in the media with like
22:41the feel-good stories of refugees who've
22:43made it in Germany or made it in the US
22:45and brought pieces of their culture and
22:47now they're very successful and even
22:49these stories are painting refugees as
22:52almost these superheroes that they're
22:54going to come and they're going to be in
22:56the Olympics or they're going to come
22:57and build an unbelievable restaurant or
23:00they're going to overcome their
23:01obstacles in such a grand way it also
23:04creates a sense of over expectation on
23:07what refugees not what refugees can do
23:10or but what they're supposed to be doing
23:13so it'd be I think the most important
23:15part is to take these technologies and
23:17take places like Silicon Valley's
23:20strengths at scaling a a solution but
23:25those solutions really have to come and
23:27be co-authored if not completely
23:30basically absorbed by the communities
23:33themselves I think that's so important
23:36that you brought that up it's really
23:37about empowering voices or you're
23:39creating tools for people whether you're
23:41a user of a tool when you talk about
23:42innovation as an overused word I mean I
23:44agree with that we're in the business of
23:46that so it's kind of hard not to use
23:48that word but I will say that the
23:50concept that comes to mind is this
23:51concept of jugaad innovation which is
23:54the term that na'vi Raj do wrote about a
23:56few years ago but it's based on this
23:58word in India jugaad which is like you
24:00have a very limited constraints and you
24:03have to figure out how to innovate
24:04within these limited constraints and
24:06there's a lot of resource fulness that
24:07comes with that to your point Lina
24:09the flip side of it is exactly right
24:11that I don't think we can expect the
24:13superhero narrative either when people
24:14reference Steve Jobs like there's a
24:16million Steve Jobs in hiding in a
24:18current cohort of refugees because Steve
24:21Jobs you know technically it was part
24:23Syrian but the reality is like these are
24:26just people living their daily
24:27we just wanted they who they are and
24:29contribute in some natural way and I do
24:32think that we have a tendency sometimes
24:33in tech to get a little solution istic
24:34but we are in the business of thinking
24:36of solutions and so that said where are
24:38the areas that we can build tools to
24:41empower education and some of the other
24:44things that you're talking about one of
24:45the most frustrating things for me as
24:48someone who runs a non-profit when I
24:50constantly find for instance technology
24:52or apps or curriculum about coding for
24:57instance if we teach kids how to code
24:59then problem solved we can all become
25:01coders the solution is not in teaching
25:04kids how to code the solution is how do
25:07you introduce Syrian refugee kids or any
25:10group of kids to the concept of coding
25:13in a way that they connects them to
25:14passions that they might use in the
25:17future to or not use depending on what
25:20their what they actually want to do in
25:22life and take that and run we had a
25:25journalist with us on one of our
25:26missions that we do in refugee schools
25:29in Turkey and we take all sorts of
25:30mentors with us who are artists
25:33journalists writers dentists all sorts
25:35of people and we had a journalist with
25:38us and the kids saw her and they asked
25:40her what she does because they saw her
25:42taking notes and she told them I'm a
25:44journalist and they all said we want to
25:46learn journalism and she set up a
25:48workshop the next day which we hadn't
25:50planned for right in the garden because
25:52we didn't have a classroom for her and
25:54within a year because she created a
25:57Facebook group with the kids that she
25:59gave the journalism class to and she
26:01went back with another group of
26:03journalists these are all like new york
26:04times AP journalists and they did a
26:07video editing class and in terms of
26:10scale it's very interesting because the
26:11first group she had was 40 kids the
26:13facebook group became around 20 and then
26:16the actual group who took the advanced
26:18journalism class was about 10 and out of
26:21after one year who never thought they
26:23ever wanted to do journalism we had four
26:25who now work full-time for a newspaper
26:28in Istanbul as their job and one of the
26:31kids has to front-page stories and
26:33that's just from introducing kids to
26:36different ideas different creative
26:38concepts things that they are they were
26:41- before they don't have exposure - and
26:44especially the teenagers which we think
26:47are the most vulnerable refugee
26:50population both boys and girls because
26:53we have a very limited amount of time to
26:55intervene and get them either to stay in
26:58school get them into higher education
27:00opportunities or get them to be able to
27:03train in useful skills that they could
27:06actually use to have the employment
27:08opportunities as Lina said it's very
27:10important that those solutions be not
27:13just designed with refugees in mind but
27:15also designed by refugees because they
27:17will have a much better innate
27:19understanding of where their interests
27:21are what their needs are than anyone
27:23doing it from the outside so
27:24government's role in a census to be a
27:26convener a catalyzer bringing these
27:28groups together we're finding that
27:30virtually everything we're trying to do
27:31in foreign policy is at the intersection
27:34of foreign policy and technology and so
27:36many of the answers have a technological
27:39component they may not be the entire
27:41answer or the only answer but it's often
27:43and so if we're trying to do arms
27:45control around the world if we're trying
27:46to monitor a ceasefire if we're trying
27:48to figure out how to promote greater
27:49health security energy security food
27:51security there's going to be a
27:52technological component and same with
27:55the refugee crisis so we actually come
27:57out here on a regular basis and we get
27:59the best minds we can find to sit
28:02together and to think together around
28:04solving a problem and we've done that
28:05with distance education for refugees and
28:08found a lot of very good practical ideas
28:10coming from that that some of which are
28:12now being applied I was frustrated with
28:14Washington bureaucracy as much as anyone
28:16and I was in the administration for
28:17seven years but the thing that surprises
28:20me is there is an enormous sense of
28:23mission both in Washington and in here
28:25people want to solve things like they're
28:27willing to work hard it's not about the
28:28pay and it's not about the risk of
28:30failure like you're willing to do it you
28:31just want to feel like you're part of
28:32something bigger and then you're
28:34empowered to do it when you think about
28:35technologists building tools at the end
28:37of the day our job is to build solutions
28:38and it doesn't mean that it replaces
28:40structural things that need to happen as
28:42well but it comes from LinkedIn's
28:44program matching you know refugees with
28:47job opportunities or Airbnb matching
28:49housing or you know tech Fugees the
28:51conference in London that's bringing all
28:53these people together
28:54and trying to build new types of apps we
28:56don't app if I immigration but you're
28:58also telling me that there's this
29:00important awareness of how a lot of
29:01these problems are actually they do
29:03require government awareness yeah we
29:06need to realize as Lena said these are
29:07man-made problems and governments are
29:09dealing with complicated political
29:11issues so for Silicon Valley for example
29:13as I think there has been resistance in
29:14the past about getting involved in some
29:16of these because it can seem political
29:18you know it's one thing to deal with
29:19response like a hurricane or an
29:21earthquake you know another thing to
29:23look at issues that get into very
29:24complicated immigration of political
29:26issues and I think you need to strike
29:28the right balance of going in and
29:30helping on the ground but also realize
29:32that there are many players on the
29:33ground there are non-government
29:34organizations who have been dealing with
29:36this for a while and you want to make
29:37sure is when you're going in you're
29:39aware of the larger context so you're
29:41not doing harm but there's another side
29:43to that I heard a lot whether you're
29:45talking to the governments of Jordan or
29:47Turkey or Lebanon that faces the
29:49refugees where on the one hand they
29:51obviously want to help address the
29:53problem and the suffering happens our
29:55refugees on the other hand they're
29:57concerned about creating a new permanent
29:59citizen group that they have not
30:01anticipated for so there's a delicate
30:03balance between helping to solve the
30:05problems that they need while also not
30:07creating the conditions that what is
30:09meant to be a temporary refugee camp
30:11instead becomes a permanent city or in
30:13fact a lot of the refugees actually just
30:14want to go home and this is where
30:16government can actually play a key role
30:18there's always a policy component to
30:19this too so for example with Jordan
30:22we've worked with the Europeans and with
30:24Jordan to develop a compact so that if a
30:27product is made in a certain area and
30:30refugees are part of making that product
30:32it will get some kind of preferential
30:34treatment when it's exported to another
30:37market but the companies involved will
30:39employ the local population and employ
30:42refugees at the same time similarly a
30:44lot of these countries because they're
30:46so-called middle-income countries don't
30:48qualify for the lowest lending rates
30:50from the international financial
30:52institutions we've instituted a new
30:54policy that gives them access to those
30:56rates in order to help meet some of the
30:59burden so this is an area where
31:00governments can really make a difference
31:02in changing policy one other example
31:03when it comes to education one of the
31:05most important things we can do because
31:08of this lack of capacity in a turkey
31:10Lebanon or Jordan is to allow kids to
31:12get informal education while we're
31:14trying to find space for them in the
31:16formal system but that informal
31:18education needs to be accredited you
31:19need to be able once you've had a year
31:21or two of learning in a community center
31:24in a UN agency the ability to have that
31:26translate into credit for the formal
31:29system and that's a policy issue because
31:31in a lot of countries they don't want
31:32and there's a tech issue too
31:33I mean fin tech for example Alex here
31:36says often it's you know if you had to
31:37recreate a bank right now what would you
31:39what would you do differently everything
31:41you know I mean you're dealing with some
31:43areas where you don't have trouble
31:44credit scores you have people who maybe
31:46have access to mobile money but not
31:47actually credit cards the real gap I see
31:50here is here the policy needs here's
31:52what's going on the ground let's tell
31:53people what's happening and then combine
31:55that with people or just think about
31:56kind of solutions and I would add
31:58solutions that are also tools enabling
32:00the creation of other things Wow exactly
32:03both Washington having humility but
32:04Silicon Valley having the humility and
32:06knowing is those tools and solutions can
32:08only go so far but there's a lot more
32:10they can go but realize like what the
32:12broader context you operating so we
32:14don't get carried away and say oh Tech
32:15is gonna lead us all to hold hands and
32:17sing Kumbaya what this really points to
32:19is that given the complexity the
32:22magnitude of the problem
32:23no single actor whether it's government
32:26whether it's NGOs whether it's the
32:29international relief system whether it's
32:31Silicon Valley no single actor can solve
32:33but together working together
32:35coordinated together there are solutions
32:37and that's what we need to do we need to
32:39bring people together to channel their
32:41energies and their focus on this
32:43challenge for people listening what can
32:45concretely dad okay well we're seeing it
32:48often starts with an individual just
32:49having an idea or saying we should
32:51figure out a way to help and how do we
32:52bring what's unique about our company to
32:55bear on this problem so you mentioned
32:56Airbnb before they are now soliciting
32:58their host community to take in refugees
33:01on on an emergency basis it may be as
33:04simple as simply opening up job
33:06opportunities to refugees most of these
33:08companies you get benefits and you get
33:11socialized in working with other people
33:13and that gives you a platform to go on
33:15from there so I think it's really a
33:17matter to of people just asking
33:19themselves wherever they're working
33:21there's something either that I can do
33:23as an individual or is there something
33:24that my company can bring to this not
33:26just necessarily in inventing something
33:28but literally opening its doors in a new
33:31way to bringing people in I think that
33:33it's very important for people to
33:35understand that Syria is really much
33:39much beyond a political problem at this
33:42point it's really a collective humanity
33:45issue and the way that we will deal with
33:49this crisis this ongoing crisis and not
33:52just the refugees the actual conflict
33:55itself really will define all of us in
33:58history it's a responsibility it's not
34:01something you can just sit out no it's
34:02not I want to thank you for being here
34:04today to talk about this I'm sure it's
34:06not easy given all the things that you
34:07witnessed firsthand and that's going on
34:09for you guys to talk about it in this
34:10context but we really appreciate your
34:12taking the time and the work that you do
34:14thank you for joining the i6 & z podcast
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