00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I am
00:02Michael Copeland and we have in the room
00:04our man in Barcelona Benedict Evans who
00:06is back now from Mobile World Congress
00:10Benedict Walla back hello
00:13alright let's talk about Mobile World
00:15Congress it is the largest gathering of
00:17what these days it's something like
00:20ninety to a hundred thousand attendees
00:22and it is the annual global trade fair
00:25for the mobile telecoms industry so all
00:29the people who sell stuff to telcos
00:31which is about a 1.2 trillion dollar
00:34industry so over double the size of the
00:37entire online appetite in the entire
00:39advertising industry for context in
00:41something like 10 times the size of the
00:42online advertising industry so it's a
00:44big industry and it's a big trade fair
00:46and it's everything from building
00:47software to base stations to handsets to
00:51camera sensors to every single bit of
00:53that value chain there's always been
00:56hand wringing over Mobile World Congress
00:58versus you know CES and other things and
01:01what's what's common and both of those
01:02massive gatherings is that Apple doesn't
01:05show up or at least Apple doesn't show
01:06up officially so we we hear about all
01:10the gadgets that come out of there it's
01:11a sort of Android world really is what
01:13it's come to or it used to be the nokia
01:15world but put that in context like what
01:17what does Mobile World Congress wrap its
01:19arms around these days and what does it
01:22start to look like well it's an
01:23interesting shift I mean I first went in
01:262001 as a baby analyst and it was
01:29probably a tenth of the size and it was
01:31in cann which was kind of a cold rainy
01:33French provincial town did your parents
01:35have to take you with their chaperone
01:37you know although there wasn't an urban
01:39legend about somebody whose assistant
01:40booked him a flight to call in the north
01:42of France which is if you don't actually
01:45know the spelling it looks kind of
01:46similar and so you went there and you
01:51saw all the new stuff you saw the new
01:52phones and he saw my god phones with
01:54cameras and phones with colour screens
01:55and maybe Java and you know this was the
01:57point that everything was kind of taking
01:59off and it was also just a year after
02:01the European 3G spectrum auctions when
02:04European operators spent about a hundred
02:06and ten billion euros on spectrum to do
02:07mobile data services
02:09and I kind of read a blog post about
02:11this kind of two weeks ago saying right
02:13it didn't you didn't really know at the
02:15time this is 2001 it was going to take
02:17until 2007 before you actually had a
02:19phone that could really do this stuff
02:21well first consumed a really good
02:23consumer sweetie phones outside Japan
02:24took till 2005 the iPhone was 2007 it
02:27really took till 2010 before smartphone
02:31sales were really started exploding yeah
02:32we here we are 2015 with 15 years later
02:35were only just at the point that kind of
02:37everybody's got one of these things and
02:38using it well over half of the Western
02:40population of the developed world has
02:41got one of these things in and he's
02:42starting to use it so it kind of took a
02:44long time there's a hundred and ten
02:46billion for a spectrum you know at the
02:49time people thought it was crazy looking
02:51back if you had known that it was gonna
02:53take that long you know time and you
02:54were a telco does that seem like a good
02:56way to spend your money I haven't done
02:59the ROI but I don't think any of the
03:01business cases that people have had my
03:03had in mind worked out and of course
03:05part of that is that telcos all had
03:06these sort of strategic envisions of
03:08everything that was going to be done on
03:09mobile phones and you know they they had
03:12Facebook and Instagram and Mail banking
03:14and all of this stuff in mind but of
03:16course they thought they'd all be doing
03:17it and they thought they would be were
03:18driving they thought they'd be making
03:19money from it and they thought they'd be
03:21selling extra data plans from it and
03:23they're not making any money from it so
03:24they built they spent all the money and
03:25they built all the network and their
03:27revenues been you see the European
03:28operators the revenue has been flat down
03:30for over a decade so I mean this is kind
03:33of a thought that I had is if I was to
03:35go back from 2016 to 2001 and kind of
03:39explain what was gonna happen you know
03:41what would I have said and would anyone
03:43have believed it it's going to take a
03:45decade for this stuff really to start
03:46working when it does all the crazy
03:50lunatic visions will happen for billions
03:53of people right but it all won't be done
03:56by Nokia or Microsoft it will be done by
03:58this second-tier South Korean
04:00electronics company Samsung and this has
04:03been American computer company that
04:05you've made Lee remember from the 80s
04:07called Apple Computer and none of the
04:12telcos will get any benefit from this at
04:14all except in the USA they'll manage to
04:16sell a lot of data plans because the
04:18markets not very competitive but the
04:19European carriers won't make any of this
04:21and Finland and Japan will stop
04:23and would anyone have believed like and
04:27like the portal model won't work like
04:28people thought the AOL model was gonna
04:30work for telcos they didn't realize that
04:32it wasn't even going to work for AOL and
04:34so like the future took longer and
04:37looked very different and there's a kind
04:39of an interesting tension point here and
04:40like all the conceptual stuff happened
04:43like all the amazing visionary stuff
04:45that people babbled about and
04:47visionaries and futurologists and so on
04:49said what's going to happen it all
04:51happened right but it took a lot longer
04:52and all the people who thought they're
04:53going to make money from it didn't make
04:54any money from it at all
04:55so I thought that but I just thought I
04:57was kind of casting my mind back and
04:59thinking about how it all happened but
05:02it all kind of ended up looking
05:03different from how we expected and then
05:05looking at you know kind of bringing up
05:06to the present day where you know it
05:08used to be that all the stuff was
05:09announced there and then apples bobble
05:11seemed pulled the announcements
05:12elsewhere and Samsung bullets
05:13announcements elsewhere this year a lot
05:15of new stuff was announced like modular
05:19phones it was kind of a throwback to you
05:21know in some ways shrugging off the the
05:24kind of I don't know bounds of the
05:26iPhone like let's try something
05:28yeah I think that's a bit of that I mean
05:30LG has got a modular thing Sony is kind
05:33of really kind of thinking about how to
05:34create kind of more of a lifestyle brand
05:38Samsung basically had the s6 s in the s7
05:41it like it's yes it's better but it kind
05:43of looks the same as the last year's
05:44model which is you know it's fine but
05:46it's not changing the world and then
05:48everybody piling into VR right which is
05:50sort of function of the dynamic of the
05:52Android Market which is everyone's
05:53selling a commodity product with
05:54commodity components and a commodity
05:55operating system so what are you gonna
05:57do well obviously you should DVR and so
06:00Samsung has evolved a gear LG has a VR
06:05headset that's a huge heathered from
06:06your phone which is kind of interesting
06:08HTC has a VR headset that's actually
06:13tethered from a high-end PC so it's an
06:15$800 head so it's directly competes with
06:17the the oculus headset both of which
06:19will be out this spring all this summer
06:22it seems like a bat yes I had the demo
06:29it's cool it works it's $2,000 it's
06:30seven eight hundred dollars plus like a
06:32$1500 PC Wow which using the ball same
06:36oculus and so VR it's interesting like
06:39everyone's piled into VR but I think
06:41it's as Chris Nixon made this point it's
06:43like you have the high-end product which
06:44is very expensive and still not like
06:46where you want it to be in the long term
06:48in terms of like pixel density and so on
06:50and then you have a low-end product at a
06:52high-end price which is what you get on
06:53cardboard or smartphones and so on which
06:55is you still got a well-known on our
06:56hand-press you you get but you're not
06:59getting the high-end product right but
07:00you have yeah but it's you know it's not
07:04is not the experience that you really
07:05want from which is what you get from
07:07what you sort of get from oculus in five
07:09today and we'll get from that over the
07:10next couple of years and so there's this
07:12kind of sense of like let's kind of
07:13hurry up and wait somewhere else from
07:16the smartphone guys and that the
07:18experience is there but it's not kind of
07:19this is like the v1 and this is the test
07:22in the demo that makes you think okay
07:23this is going to be interesting but it's
07:26not what you want yet it's kind of like
07:27the pre iPhone and so you think the guys
07:29are getting there because they believe
07:30that that's where VR goes yeah so I you
07:34know I kind of sort of basic thesis is
07:37clearly it's not it's not going to be a
07:39$2,000 product for it to be mass-market
07:41and it's probably got to be on your
07:42smartphone and it's got to be a lot
07:45better than the experience is now and
07:47that means it's going to take a couple
07:48of years and so in 2 3 4 5 years time
07:52depending on what you think you need and
07:53what you think the very map looks like
07:54this becomes a kind of a standard part
07:56of mid to high-end high-end smartphones
07:58with a headset and then everything gets
08:01built off the back of that and there may
08:03also be a games console product so
08:05obviously let's see hololens where they
08:07just announced their dev kit I think
08:09$3,000 2 or $3,000 I think it's $3,000
08:11and then there's a rumored Sony product
08:13for a games console as well but you know
08:15that again this is a little bit while
08:17out and so you know you go you have the
08:20demo you think this is astonishing this
08:22is part of the future and it will no
08:25question will be part of the future is
08:27not why here yet right
08:29given how handset makers make money or
08:32don't make money how does the VR help
08:35them I mean now they're gonna again I
08:36think well you get this question is does
08:39this become a condition of entry light
08:40you know you buy the Samsung one over
08:42the HTC One because it has this the over
08:44the LG one because it has the gear VR
08:45and you may not use it a lot be bought a
08:47bit and you get like the you
08:49off another bit of the higher market um
08:51and so you get this kind of subordinate
08:52question of well how long is Apple going
08:54to stay out of this the product right
08:56now is probably not what Apple would
08:57want to sell but do they leave it open
08:59to the Android Market into Google for
09:01the next two three however long until
09:02they think they can get it perfect you
09:04know we'll see they'll be my suspicion
09:06is they'll wait a while Apple tends to
09:08be kind of a fast follower in this stuff
09:09and then come in with what they hope is
09:11kind of a market defining product well
09:12and the rumor is that they're they're
09:14hiring like mad and working on some
09:16apparently so yes so but we'll see but I
09:19thought there was kind of an interesting
09:19contrast cuz on the one hand you have
09:21these kind of jumps into the future the
09:23probably the most kind of interesting or
09:26kind of interesting company for kind of
09:27what it symbolizes is something I found
09:29in the kind of the back alleys and I
09:31mean this is kind of the point of Mobile
09:32World Congress is you just walk and walk
09:34and walk so my watch test my SmartWatch
09:36tells me that I did 38 miles in four
09:38days of just walking and looking company
09:40so the company I met as a Algerian
09:43family-owned conglomerate as just kind
09:45of common story from middle income
09:46markets in the cement business then they
09:50got into the white goods business
09:51fridges and washing machines and so on
09:53no in factories and so on making them
09:55built up a chain of 150 stores around
09:58Algeria selling these then they get into
09:59what we call ground goods so TVs making
10:02TVs which again you buy the panels from
10:04LG and put them together right then they
10:06get into smart phones what's the brand
10:07typically for this company so they know
10:09their smartphone brand is kondal and
10:11warmed or has a third of the algerian
10:13market oh wow more than any other player
10:15in the market and this is that i say
10:19fine to say that's our g ria and so but
10:20what this symbolizes is this question of
10:23what happens to the future of the
10:24android OEM space because so samson
10:28cloned nokia you know you get people in
10:31the valley say they buy cloned apple no
10:32no they clone okiya in the sense of
10:34every handset every price point every
10:36technology every frequency every
10:38operator every sales channel sales
10:39talent in particular so it's in its on
10:41the street in bogota and you know rule
10:44wherever you can get a samsung phone and
10:46that only took them so far but in
10:49parallel what's happened is that the
10:51smartphone industry has kind of turned
10:53into the pc industry of the 80s in that
10:56you have commodity components commodity
10:58operating system and a thousand people
11:00piling in trying to work out how to do
11:02this it's like the pc
11:03and so the question is like what is the
11:08value chain look like once you leave the
11:09factory gate in China where does it go
11:13who sells it under what brand how do you
11:15get that phone and say anything from $40
11:19and incidentally the entry price of an
11:21Android to 3G Android phone now with
11:24half a gig of memory is probably 40 to
11:2750 no 25 to 30 dollars whole cell and
11:31then 4G is more like $40 and that's you
11:34know it's not a great experience but
11:36it's not bad especially not at that
11:38price and so here is the thing so you
11:40have Condor buying some components and
11:42putting them together in Algeria and
11:43selling them through their chain of 150
11:45shops and who else has got 150 chops
11:47shops in Algeria that can sell phones
11:49you know not Xiaomi I don't know but not
11:54Xiaomi and so then you say you have them
11:56and then you have Widow in France which
11:58is built a distribution in France the
12:00phones are made in China they brand and
12:01sell them in France you have Micromax in
12:04India you have cherry mobile in the
12:05Philippines you have maybe a dozen other
12:08companies scattered all across this
12:10quadrant of some combination of making
12:13designing branding and marketing but
12:15above all else being the guys you can
12:16actually put them into the hands of
12:17consumers do you sell online do you sell
12:19in shops do you have a strong consumer
12:21brand do not you change your software
12:23how much you change your software how
12:24many people are trying to clone shammy
12:26and so of course Shammi had these two
12:28innovations one is change of software in
12:30a way that makes Android kind of
12:31differentiated and to have a completely
12:33new reach market in terms of kind of
12:35online flash sales turns out an awful
12:37lot of people are trying to clone the
12:38software approach and it's not yet clear
12:40whether the online fly sales model will
12:42work outside China they've tried to make
12:44it work in India they've done ok it
12:45clearly has annexed you know they don't
12:47dominate the market there yet but you
12:48know we'll see and then you have you
12:51know Apple kind of sitting out on one
12:53end of that which is you know in any of
12:54the factories but they do they design
12:56the whole thing and the branding and the
12:57marketing and distribution and
12:58everything else and so they're kind of
12:59right in one corner of whatever that
13:01quadrant would look like and then you
13:03have a whole bunch of people who's go to
13:05Foxconn and say well have number seven
13:07and number 15 please and can you make it
13:09green and silk screen although go on the
13:11back which to your point the PC clone
13:14days were just like that and in some
13:16you know you could build it you could
13:17build your own but you almost didn't
13:19care and tell you know I was a gamer or
13:22I was a business person or I was and
13:24then someone I tended to make the
13:25perfect analogy because the PC cleaners
13:27did tend to put them together themselves
13:29right well it's a lot of these companies
13:31you farm putting them together
13:32themselves although you know with the
13:34example of Condor actually they are
13:35putting the thing together themselves or
13:36half of it you know they sort of half
13:38they do about half of the work they say
13:39um what you then have or you haven't yet
13:43had is kind of the del aha Dada is to
13:45say the company that comes along and
13:47says do you know what this is kind of a
13:48crappy low-margin business and we're
13:50going to love that and be that and we're
13:52going to create the business model the
13:54wins in that world and we haven't quite
13:58had that but what I thought was
13:59interesting coming back to Condor is
14:01like if you're in the cement business
14:04what margin do you think is a great
14:05margin to make then if you're in the
14:09consumer if you are then in the handset
14:11business what margin do you think is a
14:13great margin to make and if you're in
14:14consumer electronics or whatnot or TVs
14:16well margin is a great margin to make
14:18I'm just guessing and I don't know this
14:20for sure I'm guessing the margin even in
14:22TVs is better than the margin in cement
14:24well that's about it because the TV room
14:26is like it's like half a point my point
14:31is you have a question of you know total
14:35commodity product can you create some
14:38differentiation around brand around the
14:41design of the handset around software
14:42that you load onto it maybe using
14:44cyanogenic a portfolio company to create
14:47something nice on top of Android but how
14:50do you put it in your customers hands
14:52well how do you build a support the
14:55customer support so that if there's a
14:57problem people can get it and get it
14:58resolved and how far do you need to do
15:00that how far do you need to make it as
15:03opposed to bewitch bits of that value
15:06change you need to put in place and you
15:08know that is completely open at the
15:11moment you describe this family from
15:13Algeria that makes you know from cement
15:14now to smartphones in the Condor brand
15:16Google doesn't have the answer to this
15:18question either Google's decided to like
15:20you know what we can't do it the way we
15:21were doing it we're gonna bring it more
15:23in house and do our own so it's a great
15:26observation that sundar pichai made to
15:29running Android and is now running
15:30Google made this kind of point that you
15:32know when Samsung dominated Android
15:34people said geez and all you've got a
15:35big problem Samsung dominates Android
15:36and now that sounds like doesn't
15:37dominate Android people are saying geez
15:39and are you've got this big problem like
15:40all these other companies coming up
15:41right I mean I you know I have a you
15:43know how am i sort of this is sort of a
15:45separate conversation but like clearly
15:46there is a question within this for
15:49Google which is like it does given like
15:53the kind of the fundamental shift as we
15:55went from one of the fundamental shifts
15:56as we went from a desktop internet to
15:58the mobile internet was that the
15:59smartphone itself is the platform and
16:01therefore the operating as opposed to
16:02the web browser and so you are very
16:04often you're targeting the smartphone
16:06and the smartphone operating system
16:07itself becomes a user acquisition model
16:09so the platform is where Windows wasn't
16:12you know Microsoft couldn't do stuff
16:13that changed how different websites
16:15could access their customers Google
16:16could but Microsoft couldn't and Apple
16:18couldn't whereas on a smartphone the
16:20operating system owner is actually doing
16:21stuff and so it matters to some extent
16:25for Google what the Android world looks
16:27like because that may mean that stuff
16:31Google want to do or other people wants
16:33to do may affect how people get to
16:35Google and obviously you see this with
16:37what Mac Apple is doing an iOS that they
16:39do stuff that routes people away from
16:40Google not necessarily out of kind of
16:43aggression but just because it's that's
16:44kind of the natural flow of the product
16:45evolution and so you do get this
16:47question well what is the Android world
16:49gonna look like and right how does that
16:50affect you --gel does it do you get lots
16:52of people trying to try to change
16:53Android do you get lots of people just
16:55saying you know we're gonna take the
16:56latest signage and build and we're going
16:57to put you near prelates free apps and
16:59put a logo on the front and that's and
17:00we're done my suspicion is probably more
17:03the latter than the former but it just
17:06kind of poses this interesting question
17:08of you know what is all this stuff gonna
17:09look like and you know in the long term
17:11you know there are say there's probably
17:15less than 300 million phone PCs were
17:17sold last year that will drop down to
17:19probably 200 to 250 million pcs being
17:22sold and there's one and a half billion
17:24pcs on us maybe maybe a bit less and
17:26that might drop down to one and a
17:28quarter maybe even one and there were
17:30two billion phones being sold as opposed
17:33to so you go to a world and that will
17:36come rise a bit and so you will go to a
17:40world in which there are
17:41four billion maybe five billion people
17:44with a mobile phone most of which will
17:47be running iOS or Android and sales of
17:51iOS and Android devices every year of
17:53over two billion units and so the unit
17:57sales of iOS and Android will be 10 X or
17:59sales or pcs and the install base will
18:02be probably 5 X the install base of PCs
18:04and what that well looks like is kind of
18:09you know we don't quite know yet is that
18:11gonna look like the world of white goods
18:13you know is it gonna look like the world
18:14of TVs is it going to be lots and lots
18:16of like regional players is it going to
18:18be a boat is a Brazilian company that
18:20just has a quarter of the market in
18:21Brazil or there going to be two that
18:23have 2/3 of it between them what is that
18:25how is that how is all that going to
18:26shake out will it be Samson will it be
18:28Lenovo who are away will it be you know
18:30do we move to a world where there's just
18:32lots and lots and lots of companies
18:33doing this do we move to a world where
18:35manufacturing happens you know outside
18:36of the places as it happens now - or is
18:39that just so locked down now that you
18:41think there's not much chance as you
18:44know you could argue I don't have a
18:46strong view on this you could argue that
18:48as the product becomes more commoditized
18:50and it becomes you know these three
18:52chips plus this screen plus piece of
18:54injection molding plus is about so and
18:56so and so on that you have less need for
18:59the kind of the cluster of expertise
19:01that you having Chen Zhen right and
19:02that's more of like certainly like the
19:04assembly may move outside China
19:06that's certainly happened in some other
19:08sectors it may do I do I don't have a
19:10strong view on that certainly you can
19:12start seeing that happen for some of
19:13these companies like Munich condo is
19:15doing half of the work in they say
19:17you're doing half the work in Algeria
19:18you know we'll see it made it and you
19:21know Shenzhen we may move on to kind of
19:24high majnu pup the value chain just as
19:26happened in other industries but it's
19:28just kind of fascinates me just kind of
19:29see like on the one hand you have the VR
19:32world and this kind of super high-end
19:34vision of the future on the other hand
19:36kind of scurrying around in the kind of
19:38hole 6 & 7 you've got these other guys
19:41building this kind of completely
19:43different question as to like it's not
19:45the technology it's like who owns the
19:48shop in the third tier market town in
19:50Mozambique right right right
19:52was there anything else that you could
19:55we began this conversation in picanha
19:57your early days and the early days of
19:59Mobile World Congress do you get a sense
20:01of and and you know the telcos paying
20:03this massive amount of you know money
20:05for spectrum that turns out didn't
20:07actually turn into a great business for
20:09them is there a group that's ascendant
20:11and and/or descent and do you get a
20:13feeling like that it's telco isn't
20:15really the thing it's something else
20:16like how does that express itself at at
20:18Mobile World Congress well what's
20:22happened is that the value kind of moves
20:24up the stack with each generation and so
20:26it went from being the arm network
20:30operators who designed and built I mean
20:32back in the 80s and network operators
20:34designed and built all the equipment
20:35like Bell that's made all the gear from
20:38AT&T and NTT made in part of their own
20:41equipment or the captive manufacturers
20:43did and so that got disaggregated um and
20:46the telcos don't make their own
20:47equipment anymore and then the guys who
20:49made equipment also made handsets and
20:51it's kind of interesting that you know
20:53if you think back again 15 years ago
20:54none of the companies that kind of
20:56created cellular or in the handset
20:58business anymore like none of them they
20:59were all out of it like Nokia Ericsson
21:01Siemens you know Motorola um all of
21:06those companies were out of the handset
21:07business Samsung is the only one and
21:08they were yeah they were there but they
21:10weren't like one of the kind of primary
21:11creators of cellular technology Samsung
21:13and the only brand name from 15 years
21:15ago that are still in the handset
21:16business pretty much I mean there may be
21:18another I can't think of another airline
21:20Bell Labs is now part of Nokia
21:22incidentally which is you know tells you
21:24how the world has changed because Bell
21:26Labs merge out became recent which
21:28merged with Alcatel and Alcatel this
21:29Nokia for actual distance nowhere
21:31business so that that value moved up but
21:34then the operating system moved away
21:36from the handset makers except for Apple
21:37and then the value moved the services
21:40moved away from the operating system and
21:41so you get this continual disaggregation
21:44moving up and up and up the stack and
21:45then you know which is not kind of
21:47conversation for another day then you
21:48look at what's happening on handsets and
21:49it's like okay Facebook trying to move
21:51the disaggregate book trying to do what
21:53we chat and to some extent by do have
21:55moved in China which is moves a
21:57discovery and acquisition and you know
21:58engagement another layer up stack from
22:00the operating system right um and so
22:02we'll see at f8 and then i/o and WWDC
22:05what Apple Google Facebook plan to try
22:07and do around this which all of those
22:09in the next couple of months right in
22:10the springtime more or less sir exactly
22:11yes so and they're all sort of you know
22:15we keep circling around this question
22:16from on mobile of like we are post
22:19Netscape and post PageRank we moved on
22:21from the world where it was web browser
22:23mouse keyboard but we haven't likes got
22:26any stability on what that will look
22:27like and this is not incidentally
22:29something that with anyone was really
22:30discussing on the show floor at Mobile
22:33World Congress but this is like the next
22:36question as to Lou what is the discovery
22:38acquisition engagement stat look like at
22:41the top of the stack and then what layer
22:43appears above that whether it's you
22:45could argue it's a or vo on the one hand
22:47you could argue it's a I on the other
22:49hand in Cisco I don't like kind of
22:50career is going move from as my career
22:53started I was in telecoms in it was all
22:54about five letter acronyms like WCDMA
22:56and then you move to tech in its kind of
22:58three-letter acronyms and now it's like
23:00the three acronyms that matter or I pay
23:02our VR I want to just put in a plug for
23:07the low end VR I think that you know we
23:10talk here a lot about high end versus
23:12low end if you haven't done the low and
23:13go do it I mean it's I said well this is
23:15an interesting aside so Samsung boats at
23:17CES and on their stand here how to demo
23:20stand where you had like I think like 30
23:24or 40 seats whether you go you queue up
23:26you sit in the seat you put the gear VR
23:27on the seat the kind of stand kind of
23:30moves around and they play a roller
23:31coaster demo and that was full the every
23:34single day of the whole day at CES and
23:37full every single day the whole day I'm
23:38over all Congress and you can do the
23:41kind of the the back of the emam a sonic
23:42a five minute demo times four days or
23:44whatever the number is but it kind of
23:46tells you it's interesting that like the
23:48people who are paying however many
23:50thousand dollars to go to this
23:51conference and stay in the hotel and who
23:53work full-time in this industry a
23:55willing to queue 15 minutes to have this
23:57demo because they haven't seen it yet
23:58yeah no I mean never mind like
24:00quote-unquote civilians or normal people
24:02or whatever you muggles or whatever you
24:03want to call like people you don't work
24:04outside it takes people Infotech haven't
24:07seen this yet yeah yeah it's cool stuff
24:09and so if you get a chance go do it
24:10Benedikt thank you welcome back and
24:13you're gonna be leaving again soon and
24:14we'll talk more about where you go next
24:16but we will talk more about mobile
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