00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael
00:02Copeland and we are here with Benedict
00:04Evans Habana act you've got this new
00:07post out and you started off by
00:09describing by saying that the smartphone
00:12itself is a social platform I think
00:15that's something that's been clear for a
00:17year or two really only in fact I've you
00:18know been saying it for you or two that
00:20is to say any app you put on your
00:23smartphone can access your address book
00:24and can get your photo library and your
00:27camera and your location and it can do
00:31push notifications and it gets an icon
00:33on your home screen and so you don't
00:35have to check another site to see if
00:37something's happened you don't have to
00:38upload you it's easy to share
00:40photographs and you can get to any new
00:44social app you install just by tapping
00:45to your buttons and so all the friction
00:48that made it of course you would stall
00:50the app and instantly you can see all of
00:51your friends and tell you who's already
00:52using this app you don't have to go and
00:54you know log into Google or upload an
00:56address book file or something and so
00:58all of the friction that made it
01:00difficult to use more than one social
01:02network on the desktop web go to web
01:04mobile almost all of it right the only
01:06thing that remains is that well you've
01:08still got to get people actually to
01:09install an app but other than that once
01:11you've got the app installed it's
01:13extremely easy to have more than one of
01:15these things extremely easy to switch
01:17between the two of them and this is why
01:18we've seen in the last two or three
01:20years an explosion of social messaging
01:22apps of various kinds from whatsapp
01:24onwards I think that much is kind of
01:26it's kind of given that's been kind of
01:28fairly well understood for the last
01:29couple of years I think what's
01:31interesting now is you're kind of going
01:33into a second phase beyond that that we
01:35kind of had the first wave of guys who
01:37are basically doing SMS plus or building
01:42little for building kind of portals and
01:43identity platforms which is kind of what
01:45line and so and we're doing but then
01:46you've had countries subsequent waves
01:48one of them was building platforms which
01:52is what we chat most obviously is done
01:54and a few other people have done as well
01:55and the other which is equally
01:58interesting is finding kind of little
02:00pieces of psychology or new types of
02:03and riding off those which is what you
02:06see an Instagram and you see in snapchat
02:08and you see in meerkat and various other
02:12things and secret and various other
02:13things like that and and so what you
02:15point out and this is what I wanted to
02:17dig into too is that Facebook really in
02:19that second wave has has really led you
02:22know other technology company is this
02:24kind of driving things with acquisitions
02:26like you say point out of Instagram and
02:28whatsapp but well they've been driving
02:29the count chart that is to say yeah
02:32created any new behavior since the
02:35newsfeed haven't done is a bored
02:37Instagram and they bought it very early
02:38at what right so what at the time
02:40everyone said was a ludicrously high
02:41price at the time it was actually was a
02:44very good price and then what's happened
02:46right um so so whether they've seen the
02:48second way of coming or where they they
02:49helped sort of push it and create it by
02:51acquisition Facebook is is is really
02:54driving a lot of behavior right now and
02:57so let's get into that a little bit when
02:59you you talk about like these three
03:00threads that you can pull out of this
03:02second wave that we're seeing and what
03:05those are yeah so I think this this two
03:08parts to this on the one hand can you
03:10find some interesting and cool behavior
03:12that you can use as a way of gaining any
03:16user base and because the smart of this
03:18sauce or a smartphone as a social
03:20platform dynamic if you can find that
03:22you can get astonishing growth you can
03:23get 2010 20 30 50 million 100 million
03:25users quite quickly the risk of course
03:28is actually they can leave really fast
03:29as well right there but the end the
03:31other part is how do you build can you
03:33actually build a platform and this is
03:34where the gold is because it's one thing
03:36to sell your users which is more
03:38Facebook basically does it's it's an
03:40acquired another thing actually to sell
03:42installs and to sell traffic and to sell
03:46that's to say advertising is one thing
03:48but you know app installs and purchases
03:50and e-commerce are quite another and so
03:52what you saw first with WeChat and then
03:55with UK attempted to do this in the West
03:58as well is you actually you can build
04:00little apps inside a messaging
04:02application and so I can send you I mean
04:05the example would be I can send you a
04:07coupon for a lift ride in a messaging
04:09app and you can get that coupon in you
04:12experience opens inside the messaging
04:14out on your phone we don't have you get
04:16the App Store and install it and it then
04:18has access to the payment wallet that's
04:20built into your messaging app as well
04:21and your location and so you can see
04:23that and you can order the car and you
04:25can acquire that user using social as a
04:29channel for sharing and engagement
04:30without having to get an app installed
04:32so that was kind of the first that was
04:34of the kind of the first vision right um
04:37then what happened last week is it
04:40Facebook a she turned around and did
04:42something quite different in a sec they
04:43kind of pulled that whole model inside
04:45out which is very interesting and very
04:47clever what they're doing I mean that
04:50though she do two things the first thing
04:52they do which I'll come back to in a
04:53minute is they're letting websites send
04:55messages directly into directly to you
04:58in facebook Messenger even if they don't
05:00have an app installed on your phone so
05:02you can place an order on guilt calm
05:04where you're signed in with Facebook and
05:06guilt can tell you that that order was
05:07shipped in facebook Messenger without
05:09you having to install the guilt map I
05:11see so that again it's coming straight
05:13to Facebook and so who owns that then
05:15and then so then there's a second thing
05:17that they're doing which is that any an
05:20app that you have on your phone can
05:22share content into a facebook messenger
05:24feed so if I have an app that makes a
05:27cool gift or a cool video or cool
05:29cartoon basically stickers I can write
05:32an app that can record video edit video
05:34cut up all sorts of stuff and then
05:36insert that into Facebook Messenger and
05:38then in facebook Messenger there's a
05:40little more button that lists all the
05:42apps on the App Store that can do this
05:43and which of them you've got installed
05:44so you can sell me that sticker I don't
05:46necessarily even have to have that app
05:47installed you don't have to have the app
05:49installed and there will be a little
05:50install this app but underneath that
05:53content and so what Apple what Facebook
05:56have done is they've made an API for the
05:58sticker button internet and but the kind
06:03of the Jujitsu part here is you've got
06:06that you've sort out that new piece of
06:07psychology do you try and get everybody
06:10to install it and get all of their
06:12friends to install it before they can
06:14share that piece of content or do you
06:16plug into facebook Messenger 600ml
06:19monthly active users right and then only
06:22one person in a social group has to get
06:24it one person at school gets this new
06:26thing they can send it to all of their
06:28friends at school a week later
06:29everybody's tap the download link and
06:31it's growing and so you get a ton of a
06:33viral growth potentially much quicker
06:35than you have if you force people to go
06:37to the App Store in order to but but
06:39this is Facebook's App Store right
06:41exactly but the catch is well it
06:42actually takes you out to Google Play or
06:44iTunes to cachi is their Facebook users
06:46uh-huh well I described that how are
06:49they physics users sending it through
06:50the messenger social graph you're
06:53sending it into messenger and messengers
06:55deciding messenger is deciding whether
06:57if a facebook is deciding whether to
06:59feature you are not on that list
07:00they're acting as a gatekeeper in a king
07:02maker and so what they're doing in
07:04effect is is co-opting the next snapchat
07:06so they do two things firstly they're
07:08co-opting the next snapchat is this very
07:10seductive do you want a sit-in slog away
07:12to try and build an audience for your
07:14type of content or do you just drop it
07:16into facebook Messenger right instantly
07:18you can get access to 600 million people
07:20but you aren't there ever going to be a
07:2310 billion or 20 billion dollar company
07:25because they're not users right
07:28so then the other part of this of course
07:30is this means that if you stay out then
07:33you're competing not just with facebook
07:35Messenger but in with any every single
07:37app that plugs into facebook Messenger
07:39so what effectively what Facebook is
07:41trying to do is make snapchat compete
07:42with the whole app store okay so now
07:44chad is only going to have the content
07:45and snapchat dreams up whereas facebook
07:47Messenger will have the content that
07:48anybody can dream up and decide to plug
07:50into it so that's the vision you know
07:52what they're trying to do is they are
07:54attacking the concept of the smartphone
07:57as a social platform you know because
08:00the great criticism that was made is
08:02well they bought Instagram before
08:03whatever it was 1% of the value of the
08:04company and then they bought Facebook
08:06for it so then they bought snap and
08:09whatsapp for say gemstone to the value
08:11of the company they can't keep buying
08:12everything they did radish to buy
08:14snapchat they can't just buy every one
08:15of these ones that comes along and so
08:18what I think they've done is able to
08:19have to get ahead of that and say like
08:21actually we're going to make sure that
08:23al awful lot of the things that bubble
08:25up in the future never turn into pen
08:27dependent networks we just get them to
08:29flow their stuff straight into Facebook
08:31and become a platform in its own right
08:32and so therefore you they address both
08:35this kind of the WeChat so to speak
08:37question of do they build a platform but
08:39also the the kind of the virality
08:41question and try and get away from this
08:44dynamic of there being dozens of these
08:46things rising and falling all the time
08:47and turn them all into a facebook
08:49product and meanwhile let's not forget
08:52this is happening either within Android
08:54or iOS so how does then Facebook's you
08:59know maneuver with message error play
09:01against both Google and Apple well this
09:03is interesting I mean some people have
09:06pointed out that if you read the Apple
09:08iTunes terms of conditions it would
09:10appear to forbid facebook Messenger now
09:13one would suspect that Apple and
09:15Facebook could both perfectly aware of
09:16that and the Apple have taken the
09:18decision hu what this is doing is it's
09:19driving engagement it's making this
09:20variants better you know what they don't
09:22want to block this I think there's a
09:24broader and much more interesting point
09:26though for both Google and Apple which
09:28is what's actually happening much more
09:30broadly than facebook Messenger is
09:32you're see notifications becoming
09:33another one time on the device mm-hmm
09:35that is to say you have the web browser
09:36and then you have native apps in part
09:38combination with the app store but then
09:40more and more the way that you're kind
09:42of your primary unit of interaction is a
09:44notification and both Apple and Google
09:46have made notifications interactive so
09:47you can have an action button or two and
09:49you can have a payload so you can have
09:50an image and then if you think about
09:52what the watch does either
09:54Apple watch or you know Android wear to
09:57the extent that they those become a
09:58success phasing turned cut also kind of
10:00reinforces model of like an atomic unit
10:01of content right and it's only sort of
10:03notification that's um well alright well
10:05it's or at least starts it's all a
10:07notification or a message of some sense
10:09I mean it's you know you can argue about
10:10you know quite what you call it but it's
10:12a little atomic unit of content it's not
10:13the whole app mm-hmm experience and so
10:15you're unbundling a piece of something
10:17whether it's a message from a friend or
10:19a piece of information about any product
10:21or you know you you know your calendar
10:23app pops up and says hey because you
10:25know your calendar app pops up and says
10:28hey you know you need to leave your
10:30message in the nest for your next
10:32meeting in five minutes do you want to
10:33call a car yes-no NEP press yes the api
10:36to that service just summons a car
10:39loading the app from that ride-sharing
10:41cell right and so and of course then if
10:43you look on the watch again of course it
10:45that reinforces that model of just a
10:46one-button apps or one one or two button
10:49interaction models and so the the
10:52notifications panel becomes this other
10:53runtime and if you pull your
10:55notifications panel down now and you're
10:57not kind of anal about flowing it out
11:00all the time you'll see like a whole
11:01dozen or two dozen bunches of things and
11:03they're you know they're sorted
11:05differently on iOS and Android and this
11:06kind of you know both of them have kind
11:08of both Apple and Google have kind of
11:09got halfway in building you a
11:10notification story in that they kind of
11:12they started from a modal dialogue with
11:14a pop top said hey there's a message
11:16from this dismissal okay and everything
11:18here maybe we should store this
11:19somewhere right built something for
11:27jailbroken iPhone I think I can't
11:29remember now anyway and whatever it is
11:31right and start out as like this is
11:33gonna be another one time it's kind of
11:34turned into another one time from the
11:36kind of the business logic in the
11:38interaction logic and so now you've got
11:40this thing which is actually quite often
11:43my main mean my first step in
11:45interacting with the property so you
11:46think right okay how do we turn that
11:49into something that works in a
11:50systematic way maybe that should be
11:52sorted maybe they should be an algorithm
11:54for that maybe like you know the
11:55Facebook newsfeed is you know an analogy
11:57here what does it mean for Google or
11:59Apple to do that then you think okay
12:01well certainly Google is going to be
12:05interested in websites going to be being
12:07able to send notifications to the
12:09notifications panel certainly web sites
12:12on the phone because that's the whole
12:13vision of chrome is that chrome tab has
12:15become a native citizen so chrome tabs
12:17are going to have to be able to send
12:18notifications so any website you go to
12:20on your phone can send you notifications
12:22Apple already does this on Yosemite but
12:25those aren't personalized it's just a
12:27so I mean again you kind of you keep
12:29thinking about these swirling moving
12:31parts then the next question is well
12:32Facebook has an identity platform so you
12:35can go to a website your love you can be
12:37logged in with that to the website with
12:38Facebook on your PC then it can send
12:40messages to your phone and their
12:41messages to you Michael your shoes have
12:44shipped your surfboard
12:52so you know Google would like to have
12:55that identity platform in plus
12:57plastically didn't work apple doesn't
12:59have an identity platform in that sense
13:01and it's probably quite ambivalent about
13:02whether it wants one given its whole
13:04sort of mission sense if we don't
13:05collect information but on the other
13:07hand Apple clearly has an identity story
13:08in touch ID and in Apple pay right and
13:11so you know this is sort of an obvious
13:14question the way that I think about
13:16Apple pay is it's not very interesting a
13:17point of sale it's very interesting
13:19inside apps because suddenly you don't
13:20have to enter your credit card and your
13:22billing address in your shipping address
13:22you just press yes and put your finger
13:24on the scanner so the question when
13:26Apple paid came out was clearly is the
13:27next version that you are like open that
13:29up to apps on the phone do you even open
13:31it up to open that Apple pay up to apps
13:32on the desktop if you want to Mac or
13:34something um do does that pay become a
13:37border identity platform does that
13:38become a way for you to log into
13:40websites if so dude can they send
13:42notifications so you start kind of
13:44pursuing the idea maze off in all sorts
13:46of different directions as to what are
13:48the potential roadmaps here the
13:50underlying point is there is this other
13:53whole other model of interacting with
13:55staff that is emerged on a mobile device
13:57and Facebook would like to capture that
14:00and make itself that kind of primary
14:03Channel I mean the thing the subtext for
14:04Facebook of course has been you know we
14:06saw this with home Facebook is inside
14:09one blue icon on your phone and it wants
14:11to break out of that open one way it can
14:13break out is to say there's 150 things
14:15inside that blue icon and actually you
14:17should have to be at four different icon
14:18sets so you have a messenger app that I
14:19should just messaging well and you have
14:21a Facebook proper application just us a
14:22newsfeed well but that's kind of and
14:25then you have Instagram which just those
14:27photos well and so on but that's kind of
14:28you know that's just your honor that's a
14:30sort of it's not terribly profound
14:32product shift the deeper point is they
14:34want to get further down the stag on the
14:38phone itself because I mean the sort of
14:40the fundamental change here is that for
14:4220 years the internet experience as a
14:44web browser and a mouse and a keyboard
14:45and the web browser was fundamentally a
14:47neutral platform you know I'd only a
14:50measly nevus and so we should make a web
14:51browser right well maybe they did you
14:57know e-commerce company would be sitting
14:59in thinking we need to have a web
15:00but never made a web browser Google did
15:02make a web browser but you know that was
15:03other reasons but then on the mobile on
15:07smartphone it's not the web browser
15:08that's a platform it's a phone that's
15:10the platform the platform owners at
15:12Google and Apple can do stuff like they
15:14can embed search into it or they can
15:16embed product discovery or they can
15:17embed social into that or messaging into
15:19that and so Facebook is sort of sitting
15:21as a silo and someone else who sort of
15:24Platts else's platform and that someone
15:26else sort of competes them that sort of
15:29yeah and so they want to say they tried
15:32home that didn't work for a whole bunch
15:33of reasons then they're thinking okay
15:36maybe notifications through a better way
15:38of doing this right now on Android of
15:41course which is something I forgot to
15:42mention in my blog post you can make
15:44your own edification panel and install
15:46one so you know Facebook could make your
15:47notifications panel there a couple of
15:49interesting entrepreneurs making them
15:50themselves and iOS obviously you can't
15:52so you think working which we do but it
15:56feels like that's another way for
15:58Facebook to try and kind of pull back an
16:01aggregation model and try and aggregate
16:03everything that's happening on your fan
16:05and so do notifications become for lack
16:07of a better word a sort of form of
16:10portal you mean or no we kind of you
16:14know the old Jim Barksdale line about
16:16you know the only ways to make money and
16:17software were bundling and unbundling
16:18and so you know how many different
16:20layers of bundling have we got here I
16:21mean this is a joke I made in another
16:23blog post about this a while ago this is
16:24sort of a quote from PG woodhouse for a
16:26character who thinks his fiancee it's
16:28been stolen from him says that when he
16:30catches this man he'll pull him inside
16:31out and make him swallow himself how
16:34many times can you pull the cell model
16:35inside out so you've got you had a
16:37website for your unbundled websites from
16:38the browser into apps then you bundled
16:40unbundle content from the apps into
16:42notifications then you bundle the
16:44notification is the interface for
16:45messenger then you have then you have a
16:48watch and what does that do and it's
16:49like kind of it's like a kind of an
16:51endless cycle round and round and round
16:53where is the best place to put this
16:55stuff I mean this is sort of as another
16:58aside here but lives are sort of there's
17:00a narrative in the industry that says we
17:01need a common standard for messaging
17:03apps listen to me I think completely
17:04misunderstands a notification know the
17:06motivation of anybody who's building a
17:08messaging out there's the last thing
17:09they want but actually if you pull down
17:12panel on your phone well there it is
17:13there there's little aggregators right
17:15you know all your messages for many
17:17different services there is your common
17:19standard that is your common platform
17:20and so going forward I mean developers
17:23are always faced with a choice do I play
17:26Apple's game now it seems like do I play
17:28Facebook's sort of view of the world
17:30play within that does this change a
17:33developer's calculus as they're thinking
17:36where to go and how to go out it's
17:39always a carrot and a stick and Facebook
17:41is offering a big juicy carrot in the
17:43form of 600 million years or so offering
17:45you not so much a stick but you know the
17:46downside is they're not your users so
17:48there were some developers for whom this
17:49is going to be absolutely the right
17:51thing and now suddenly you've got a
17:53route to market for your product and you
17:54never really have managed to get enough
17:56a lot of people installing that kind of
17:58thing that I wrote and created that you
18:00had in mind for others you know it's
18:03very clear you shouldn't do that a lot
18:05of people that would be kind of
18:06ambivalent in the middle um I think this
18:08sort of there's two other strands to
18:09kind of pull out here one of them is
18:11there's a whole you know the sort of the
18:15whole history of Facebook is a bit
18:16creating development platforms that then
18:18kind of went away the challenge I think
18:21and of course at each stage people had a
18:23bunch of really coherent and sensible
18:25reasons why Facebook wouldn't shoot them
18:27in the back of the head and somehow or
18:28other always happening they did yeah so
18:31I think there was a difference here in
18:34that were the reason that Facebook
18:36talent attended to pull back in the past
18:39we sit it's very very vigorously focused
18:42on protecting the user experience of the
18:44newsfeed and then if stuff is happening
18:46those annoying people that will shut it
18:48down no matter how much it's previously
18:50said that they was committed to making
18:52that work or something now the point is
18:56so the news feed is algorithmically
18:57filtered your friend list and the stuff
18:59that your friend sent to you is not
19:00right and so you know they can shut down
19:05an app that's a no if you know if you've
19:07got an app that's automatically posting
19:09stuff into you all of your friends
19:10newsfeed and it's annoying them it will
19:12Facebook will turn off the tap but if
19:15I'm sending my friends pictures of gifts
19:19Facebook isn't gonna start editing what
19:22I mean it might pull the F if the app is
19:25posting stuff that's making the app
19:26crash or something but it's not going to
19:29just say well you know your friends
19:31don't we decided that quite a lot of
19:32people don't like getting animated gifs
19:34so you're not going to be able
19:38calculation it's not the newsfeed that's
19:40my point I hope that day never comes
19:42everything else was the newsfeed this is
19:43not the newsfeed this is not filtered
19:45and curated so there is no algorithm
19:46where Facebook would change settings to
19:49break this and the other thing and this
19:51is sort of you know to go to a much
19:53higher level you couldn't do me a cat
19:56using Facebook's platform I mean you
19:58could tell all your friends you're
19:59posting to but you couldn't deliver that
20:01content type you couldn't do live video
20:03using this all you could do is send them
20:05a link which is you know really you care
20:06it's not you know which is what people
20:08are doing on Twitter um you couldn't
20:10really do snapchat either you couldn't
20:13add it in the sense of getting messages
20:15to disappear mm-hmm you certainly
20:17couldn't do what we chats doing which is
20:19actually sharing you know having
20:21embedded apps within it although
20:22Facebook may well add that later and so
20:26you know the thing that's kind of
20:28happens is you know we're kind of in
20:33this wave where the whole bunch of
20:34people doing kind of cool things that
20:35you can share with people inside a chat
20:37app that's okay that's fine but actually
20:40the next thing that comes along it's
20:41going to be huge may may well not be
20:44something that works like this in maybe
20:46a how can be another interaction model
20:48maybe humming that doesn't my messenger
20:49that's the point and I think to kind of
20:51and so you know Facebook is you can
20:54argue that they're trying to get ahead
20:55of this and reset this dynamic of a
20:57small phone as a social platform that
20:58allows hundreds of competitors by
21:00attempting those hundreds of competitors
21:02to adopt the Facebook platform in order
21:04to do this because it's easier to get a
21:06pin stalls and let's make they make this
21:08clear as well if someone fixed app
21:10installs yeah this is Facebook's attempt
21:12to fix app installs as well amusingly
21:15incidentally it um undermines their app
21:19apps can go by or without in which is
21:22another interesting question but the
21:24point is it each sort of predicated on
21:26the current structure of well this is
21:27what people share and this is how this
21:29is this problem with getting people to
21:30install apps so to the extent that
21:32problem get solved this becomes
21:33irrelevant and I think you need to kind
21:36of to make a higher-level point as I
21:38said earlier we had the web browser in
21:39the mouse and a keyboard for 20 years
21:41and that was the model and then for 10
21:43or 15 years we had Google Earth on top
21:44of that and then we went to smartphones
21:46and we left that behind clearly we know
21:48we have a much more complicated in model
21:50now with all sorts of different stuff
21:51going on including this in WeChat and
21:53you know passbook and Siri and now and
21:55all sorts of other stuff but we haven't
21:59actually settled on something new and so
22:01everything keeps changing and I think
22:03what we're seeing you know then you sort
22:05of you go back to your question of well
22:07will Apple and Facebook versus Apple
22:08Google well what are Apple and Google
22:10going to do about notifications this
22:11weekend this summer they might do
22:13something really radical around an
22:15identity platform and letting you send
22:17stuff from the web they might not they
22:19might have some whole other roadmap and
22:22Facebook is running hard in this one
22:23direction it turns out like well we're
22:25gonna go in a completely different to
22:26maybe just ignore this yeah ignore
22:31notifications it may be that Apple's got
22:33this big plan for how they rebuild
22:35notifications and Google doesn't it's
22:37actually quite likely bases they've got
22:39a big plan for how they view building
22:40that but you build notifications unlike
22:41a four year roadmap and apples will drop
22:43at a different time to Google see Apple
22:45talk apples will talk one summer we will
22:47sort off another summer and everyone
22:48said oh my god I flipped off Google or
22:50Google Apple is actually say the point
22:56is is a bit there's roadmaps there
22:58there's very maps around things like
22:59Syria now in around you know location
23:01and around the watch and all this other
23:04stuff and so to my point these are not
23:06neutral platforms and they're changing
23:08all the time web didn't change like this
23:10from web browser was kind of there and
23:12it kind of gained you know me a better
23:15standards and what-have-you but you
23:16didn't fundamentally have whole
23:18completely new stuff that I do and and
23:20to your point though I mean then based
23:22on what you've observed over time it it
23:25likely will continue to change right
23:27we're like it's not like we land on
23:29something that works and okay we've done
23:30it let's stick with this yeah
23:33and that was kind of what happened with
23:34the web in the web people you had the
23:36web and then people spent 20 years
23:37facing it and make it better and adding
23:39all the standards and the stuff that you
23:40have now that let you do a Jackson and
23:42everything else but it was for the web
23:44right and it was very very hard to do
23:47anything outside it and obviously you
23:49have email sitting inside a client and
23:51then you have sings I Spotify in Skype
23:52around the sides but basically
23:54everything happened in the browser it
23:55was a square box with an address bar at
23:57the top and now your wheels where is on
23:59a smart phone it's just way way way wide
24:02open as to what the interaction wall is
24:04I mean it's you know to me to go off on
24:06another tangent it's entirely possible
24:08that in five years time Google's mobile
24:10story is a chrome phone that only runs
24:12web apps that is to say the iPhone
24:14ironically that's what the iPhone was in
24:172017 it doesn't run native code anyone's
24:19web apps um and of course Apple is
24:21getting more open and you have
24:22extensions and you have api's and you
24:24have all this other stuff going on so
24:27you know it's tremendously exciting it's
24:30tremendously complicated you know and I
24:33think you know this creates these sorts
24:35of opportunities for Facebook to try and
24:37you know insert itself into various
24:40places in the user flow to make itself
24:42more central to the way that you use
24:44your phone so this is not about gifts
24:47you know obviously it's you know it is
24:49about gifts but it's also had a lot of
24:50other stuff as to how Facebook can make
24:52itself kind of central on to your device
24:54but as this unfolds we will talk more
24:57about it and you know and as other
24:59players trying to wedge themselves into
25:01this as well so whether it's coming from
25:03you know Asia and WeChat and others will
25:07keep you here and keep us up to date
25:10cool thanks very much thank you
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