00:00hi everyone this is sonal welcome to the
00:03a6 & Z podcast we have two guests
00:05joining the pod today long time a 6mz
00:07partner Connie Chan who focuses on China
00:10and wired senior writer David Pierce who
00:13was formerly at the verge Connie is our
00:15resident China expert and we recently
00:17wrote a sort of ethnographic deep dive
00:19on how we chat works and what it tells
00:22us about mobile and business in China on
00:24the exact same day we shared our primer
00:26David wrote a piece and wired about
00:28WeChat and the universal interface that
00:30is messaging we're kind of jealous
00:31actually because his headline also said
00:33screw texting as David noted a great
00:36messaging app could be to the web
00:37browser what the browser was to the
00:39internet before it both Connie and David
00:41touch on the theme of how a messaging
00:43app can essentially become an operating
00:44system for our lives and so that's where
00:46we'll start the conversation so in the
00:48course of writing the piece that about
00:50one huge unanswered question that I
00:52still kind of have is why does this work
00:55so much better in China than anywhere
00:57else well I think there's a number of
00:59things in China that make it a ripe
01:01environment for WeChat to really take
01:03off one is email penetration it's
01:06actually much lower in China than it is
01:08also for people who are constantly
01:10texting there's a lot of SMS spam in
01:13China and I think a third contributing
01:15factor is people it's very common to
01:18have more than one phone number a lot of
01:20people I know have multiple SIM cards or
01:22there might be picking up other devices
01:23and having multiple phone numbers and so
01:26it's an environment where it's really
01:28hard to figure out how to contact
01:29someone yeah and I feel like the there's
01:31a big part of that that's just there's
01:34there's so little sort of technical
01:36inertia and a lot of that stuff where
01:38where China has grown so fast and they
01:41kind of skipped things like email and
01:43these sort of these things that weigh us
01:45down in places like the US now where
01:47they're they're not using laptops as
01:49much as we are like that for so many
01:51people I should know that this number
01:52off the top of my head but I don't
01:53they're for so many people in China that
01:55mobile was and is their only access to
01:59the Internet so there's no there's no
02:01design cruft like we invented all these
02:04ways in the u.s. to do different things
02:05and we kind of siloed everything off in
02:07its own place because that was the right
02:08way to do it you have used a much more
02:10complete version of WeChat than I have
02:12and so I'm very curious like from the
02:14from a pure design perspective like you
02:16you write all these features down or
02:18like you can do all these things the app
02:20just seems like it would be chaos and
02:21just impossible to figure out how to do
02:23anything or where anything is or what
02:25all the features are like what how does
02:27the app sort of mechanically solve some
02:30of those problems I actually think it's
02:32a very well-designed application and so
02:34once you get used to it's very easy to
02:36navigate and and they've actually put a
02:39lot of thought to try and make it as
02:41clean as they can so for example all of
02:44the official accounts that are more
02:46pushing news as opposed to transactions
02:48and services they're grouped together in
02:50a section called subscription so that's
02:53not flooding your inbox all the time
02:55there's a lot of thought to to try and
02:57make it as clean as possible
02:58and the the centerpiece is still chat
03:01like one to one and one to a few chat
03:03definitely which i think is so smart and
03:06so easy to forget to do and so rare that
03:09you even see it with snapchat which
03:11built this gigantic user base out of
03:13letting people talk to people I have
03:16like pretty rapidly changed that will
03:19just not say it's a bad thing but
03:20between discover and stories like the
03:22the fundamental aspect of what makes
03:25snapchat snapchat is changing and it's
03:28not necessarily worse and business-wise
03:30seems to have been smart for snapchat
03:31but it's just different and you kind of
03:34get away from or you run the risk any
03:36way of getting away from this place
03:38people obsessively go to talk to their
03:39friends and you become something
03:41different and when you become something
03:42different it seems to me it's much
03:44harder to go back as opposed to you can
03:46build and build and build on top of that
03:47but if you lose that I don't know how
03:50you get it back right I think
03:51communication is what makes an
03:53indispensable application Entertainment
03:56is much more you can take a break from
03:59it right you don't need it every single
04:01day but communication is something
04:02that's very hard to give up even for a
04:05short period of time yeah I read
04:06something the other day and I'm gonna
04:08totally make up this statistic but some
04:10a rage ously high like 95% of text
04:14messages get read within three minutes
04:15or something like that like it's we're
04:17so attuned to that stuff all the time
04:20that if you can if you can have that you
04:23can have anything else because I'll be
04:25there right now there are all these
04:26behaviors that it's this
04:28there's a great study I read a while ago
04:30that was like when people open their
04:31phone to do one thing they wind up doing
04:32six things and if you can give me all
04:35six of those things right next to where
04:38I did the one thing I meant to do like
04:40I'm never gonna leave and that's the
04:41crazy thing that we chat seems to have
04:43accomplished is that they've done that
04:45yeah it's not that many clicks to get
04:48each thing done I find that less of a
04:50hassle than closing out an application
04:52swiping my screen to the next the next
04:55grid of different applications finding
04:58the right one and then doing whatever I
05:00need to do and then close in that
05:02application and going back so bad that
05:05actually is navigating the phone's
05:07operating system to me is not a more
05:09elegant solution than clicking to a
05:12different tablet than WeChat well I
05:13think one area of app design that's very
05:16common in China but not as seen in the
05:18States is the usage of QR codes and the
05:21usage of the scanning feature in any app
05:23and WeChat is actually it's heavily
05:28reliant on the scanning feature so for
05:31example you can scan a QR code to access
05:33Wi-Fi in a coffee shop you can scan a QR
05:35code to find the origins of your
05:37Starbucks coffee you can scan a QR code
05:40to follow an account to join events and
05:42so forth and that's one type of design
05:45usage that I don't see us frequently in
05:47the state yeah there's an interesting
05:48sort of chicken and egg problem inherent
05:52there where because that like those two
05:55things sort of create a virtuous cycle
05:57right where it's I remember Foursquare
05:59tried to do this forever ago where they
06:00were like they tried to put the symbols
06:02in every store and then half the stores
06:04were like well we don't know if you're
06:05gonna take off so they didn't play along
06:07I don't know there seems to have been a
06:10point at which everybody kind of
06:11collectively decided we're gonna play
06:13along that just didn't happen here like
06:16it at some point you kind of need
06:17everybody to take one leap together
06:20right and but the beauty is you know
06:22when everyone does take that leap the
06:26product it just grows so much faster so
06:28for example we chat because QR codes are
06:31so commonly used you see posters all
06:33over the places in malls where stores
06:36have have their QR code and it says
06:38WeChat and says scan us to to follow us
06:41which basically helps the network grow
06:44much faster do you know if the QR codes
06:46were kind of already there and then we
06:49chat started taking advantage of it or
06:51did those things start to be put out
06:52because we chat supported it because QR
06:54codes aren't you know in theory they
06:56were they were supposed to be kind of a
06:57universal standard that everything could
06:59read right for a lot of the official
07:01accounts I don't think they were pushing
07:02QR codes nearly as much four years ago
07:05and that was those sweet chats pushing
07:07to that place I think we chat definitely
07:09contributed to it I mean the QR code
07:12usage is even used to add friends so
07:15when you're adding a friend on WeChat
07:16you can do it by searching their user ID
07:18or you can use one of their radar
07:21features to find friends in the vicinity
07:23but the primary way that I use WeChat to
07:26add friends I use the QR code so each
07:29individual has their own QR code yeah
07:32that's actually one thing I think is so
07:33interesting about WeChat and seems to be
07:35one of the reasons that it it has grown
07:38so quickly is that there are so many
07:40different ways to connect to different
07:43people I can't think of an app in the
07:45u.s. that's anything like that and
07:47everything that has tried to do even
07:48pieces of that has kind of failed but in
07:50WeChat you can connect to a random
07:52stranger you can connect to a not random
07:55stranger you can connect to people near
07:57you you can connect to people with
07:58similar interests you can connect to
07:59people you found on purpose and so you
08:01you create this gigantic network almost
08:04by accident where and then suddenly over
08:07the course of doing these kind of little
08:09activities in bits and pieces you've
08:11built this group of people and then
08:13suddenly you have the makings of a
08:14really great messaging app and then
08:15everything kind of builds out of that
08:16right and I love what you touched upon
08:18which is how how you can use it to
08:21contact strangers I think a lot of
08:23people don't realize we chats very
08:25frequently used especially in its early
08:26years to contact strangers and it's
08:29totally socially acceptable and so they
08:31had this one feature where you shook
08:33your phone and they would find someone
08:35else who recently shook their phone and
08:37you're near vicinity and they would
08:39connect you to and you guys could start
08:41a conversation and it's very difficult
08:44for most social networks to to pull off
08:46both being private and safe but also
08:49being a place where you can meet new
08:51so is there something about China that
08:55because they're something culturally
08:56about China that makes that more
08:58interesting or exciting to people
09:00because I think of apps like highlight
09:02in the u.s. that just launched to
09:04nothing and they were they had not quite
09:07the same idea but something similar was
09:10the goal was you know find people around
09:12you yeah well I think somebody else I
09:14think a big benefit is that we chat has
09:16both and so it's not an application
09:19that's used only for connections you
09:21already have and it's not an application
09:22that's used just for meeting new
09:24strangers but it's really the marriage
09:26of the two that makes it so interesting
09:27because someone who you meant as a
09:29stranger can then become your friend and
09:31go and switch from one ladder to the
09:34other or just remain a total stranger
09:37yes which is totally okay yeah I think
09:39if there's this app called photo suerte
09:41that my girlfriend discovered and has
09:43fallen in love with and all you do is
09:45you take a picture and you press the
09:46button and it sends it to someone
09:47somewhere in the world and then that
09:49person can send you a picture back
09:51that's it that's the whole thing and she
09:53loves it it's her favorite just spend a
09:57night like will we say no in couches
09:59she'll just like take a picture of the
10:00TV and send it and then somebody in st.
10:02Petersburg will send her a picture back
10:03and well I should've had that exact same
10:06feature actually four years ago yeah so
10:08another feature that most people don't
10:09use only chat is a drift bottle feature
10:12where you can send any message basically
10:14out into the ocean of WeChat and then
10:16someone can look at it and reply with
10:17whatever they want to which is awesome
10:20it's such a great idea the idea is that
10:22we chat can address loneliness which is
10:25you can meet strangers anyone born after
10:271979 is an only child and so loneliness
10:31is a very real problem in China no I
10:35mean I think the thing that really
10:36struck me about WeChat and kind of this
10:39phenomenon that grew out of it was that
10:41it started as fundamentally a messaging
10:45app like it that that was the the basis
10:47of this whole thing was and correct me
10:49if I'm wrong but this is then this is
10:51just my impression was that it didn't
10:52start as this enormous way to you know
10:56pay your taxes and get cars and do your
10:58laundry it started as a way to talk to
10:59your friends right or not even to your
11:01friends but to people right whether it
11:03was friends or strangers or whoever it
11:05was the goal was to connect people and
11:08it grew from there and it seems it seems
11:11so obvious in retrospect that it would
11:14be that way but I think so many things
11:15try to do it in that in the wrong
11:18direction or they try to do something
11:20differently or they try to tack on this
11:22kind of one to one or one to several
11:25interaction later and it just doesn't
11:28quite work and it seems to me that so
11:30much of the power of it it's like if you
11:31go where people are already talking to
11:34their friends and and then you just
11:37replicate that mechanic but you're
11:40talking to something other than your
11:41friends you can go anywhere there's so
11:44much power in well I think there's two
11:46nuggets that come out of that one is
11:47they didn't start official accounts for
11:50for the first year when we tuff was
11:52first created right and because of that
11:55there was already a heavy reliance on
11:57WeChat for communication and just like
12:00what you're saying it already took a
12:01very large percentage of my digital time
12:04and so there was already a heavy usage
12:07of it you had to use it it was basically
12:09like not having a phone number or not
12:11having your email if you didn't have
12:12your WeChat at that time right and the
12:15second thing which is the interlacing of
12:17the official accounts and your personal
12:18what that does is it actually makes the
12:20official accounts feel more personal
12:22which is really important to understand
12:24so one of which hats first major
12:27official accounts was a celebrity singer
12:29and when he first launched his account
12:32he put out videos and he put out audio
12:35recordings and he would sing messages or
12:38say notes to his fans but when you were
12:41a fan receiving that note right next to
12:43the message from your mother or from
12:45your brother it felt like that thing was
12:47speaking directly to you and so it gave
12:49off a very different feel than receiving
12:51a fan newsletter yeah and it you you
12:54know the way you say that it sounds
12:56cynical almost like you could read it as
12:58feeling kind of gross almost in in the
13:01sense of like I think it works like I
13:05think there's this really interesting I
13:08don't know that this thing happening
13:11where where brands want to talk to you
13:12like people and and in a lot of ways it
13:16doesn't work and you see you know
13:17whether it's Hillary Clinton's campaign
13:19trying way too hard to in
13:21Millennials on snapchat or its Taco Bell
13:26trying to be funny and missing horribly
13:28all these things it just doesn't quite
13:29play but with within something like
13:32WeChat in an a messaging app where the
13:34rest of the context shows you that
13:37you're talking to a person it feels so
13:39much more like a person which is really
13:40interesting in addition to that I think
13:42we chat helped enable that by giving
13:44these celebrities these official
13:46accounts such strong capability and
13:49targeting so for example a celebrity can
13:51send a different message to users and
13:54fans in one city versus another oh wow
13:56yeah it's actually a very very
13:58sophisticated targeting that official
14:00accounts can have and by the way an
14:02official account is basically a brand or
14:05an influencer or a company or a service
14:07that a user is connecting to so someone
14:09not in their personal network about a
14:12third party and they actually have a
14:13huge amount of leeway on WeChat right
14:16like this is one thing I actually
14:17thought was kind of counterintuitive to
14:19the rest of the research I was doing
14:21which said you know as much the more you
14:23can embed into what people already know
14:27and do and see the better but on WeChat
14:30it seems like particularly in China
14:32there's this gigantic range of things
14:34that you can do as an official account
14:36that can be unique to you I think part
14:39of that beauty is because technically
14:42whenever you interact with an official
14:44account that official account can
14:46basically take you to something that's
14:47similar to a web page that says wrapped
14:49inside of WeChat and so there's
14:51tremendous flexibility in design so why
14:54is it so important and this is this is
14:56one thing as a United States user I just
14:59that I might not understand or somebody
15:01who's been using a computer for a long
15:02time but why what is it that's so
15:05powerful about being in WeChat the whole
15:07time to be honest I think having lower
15:10friction when you're on a mobile device
15:12is always a good thing and being able to
15:14access or get something done with fewer
15:16clicks is always a good thing and in my
15:19mind that's probably why I personally
15:21like all the functionality that's baked
15:23into one application versus the app
15:25constellation model that a lot of
15:28companies in the States tend to follow
15:30it doesn't work as well for me I don't
15:32like having to exit out and up and
15:33opening another one to do something
15:35another benefit of it all being inside
15:38we chats is WeChat can then basically
15:42have you logged into all of these
15:44official accounts and also pass on your
15:46payment credentials and so rather than
15:48typing in my credit card information
15:50every time I'm transacting with a new
15:52official account I only have to link my
15:54payments once to the WeChat payment
15:57system and basically payments are just
15:59one or two buttons away to me that's
16:02that is one of I think the most powerful
16:04pieces of this whole thing is that these
16:08payments really like once you bake money
16:10into it they opens up everything else
16:13like I think the easiest example for me
16:15to the easiest metaphors is iTunes
16:17really where Apple has your credit card
16:20on file and once they have your credit
16:22card on file it becomes terrifyingly
16:24easy to buy anything and whether it was
16:27the numbers for them signing people up
16:29for Apple music because it took it was a
16:31free trial that is going to expire and
16:33then start charging people money that
16:34they didn't mean to start charging but
16:36because it took two seconds and by the
16:38time you can buy there's so much mess in
16:42entering your payment credentials that
16:44anything you can do to avoid that and
16:46then also once you have the trust of a
16:49service like WeChat or like Facebook or
16:52like iTunes that says you know will
16:54control paying for this stuff you
16:57suddenly feel more comfortable paying
16:58for stuff whereas instead of going to
17:00different websites and they just become
17:02so much more seamless where there's what
17:04I know where my credit card lives and
17:05then it's spreading it out everywhere
17:07else what do you think about how
17:08different networks and different
17:10applications in the States are
17:11integrating payments well so I think
17:13it's it's it's clear that most companies
17:17seem to understand the power of being
17:19the one thing you use to pay for
17:22which has led to there being a thousand
17:25ways to be the one way to pay for
17:27everything whether it's you know Amazon
17:29has the sort of payment buttons it's
17:32flinging all across the web and you can
17:34buy things through Pinterest directly
17:36now and you can buy things through
17:38you're gonna be able to buy things
17:38through Twitter soon and Apple pay is
17:41everywhere and Samsung pay is everywhere
17:42and so it's we've almost it seems like
17:45avoided solving this problem in trying
17:47problem which is a thing we do a lot in
17:50the US I think there's that great xkcd
17:52comic where they were like the problem
17:53is we have 14 standards and I'm gonna
17:56create the universal standard and then
17:57it's like blank pane and then the third
17:59one is problem we have 15 universal
18:01standards and that's what we do and this
18:05is I don't know that this keeps coming
18:07back to sort of the same thing that so
18:09fascinates me about WeChat is there
18:11there was a moment that I don't I don't
18:14understand it was I don't know how they
18:16got there where it just turned and we
18:19chatted a point where it was so powerful
18:21and so all-encompassing that it could
18:24then kind of do whatever it wanted
18:26because I think of like Facebook
18:29messenger which is probably the closest
18:30us analog to each other because we chat
18:33in the u.s. is nothing like WeChat in
18:35China which is interesting but Facebook
18:38Messenger has this payment backbone they
18:40have sort of an app store it's it's not
18:43quite the same and it's not nearly as
18:44powerful but it's there and they have a
18:47giant user base but yet it doesn't have
18:50nearly the leverage or network power to
18:53start doing the things that we chat can
18:55do and for whatever reason we chat got
18:58that and once you kind of start that
19:00snowball rolling it just keeps rolling
19:03it seems like but it's nothing here
19:06everybody is trying and nobody is doing
19:08it here which is wonderful and also sort
19:11of frustrating because you can do with
19:14anything any way you want which leads to
19:16everybody doing it differently which
19:17leads us back to the problem of not
19:19having the right way to do it I think we
19:21really benefited from becoming something
19:23that everyone now relies on like it's
19:26very difficult to to function now in
19:28some of the top tier cities without
19:30having a WeChat account when you meet
19:32someone there they're not necessarily
19:34likely to give you their phone number or
19:35their email address but they will share
19:37their which on account with you so it's
19:40almost a situation where there is no
19:41real alternative for contacting a lot of
19:45people and brands was the original pitch
19:47of WeChat to basically replace text
19:50messaging that was my guess but I wasn't
19:53I wasn't actually sure if that was true
19:55well tunson already had a product called
19:57QQ that was that is wildly successful
20:00but when the smartphone really came
20:02along they realized they needed to
20:04create something else that looked
20:06completely different so they had a
20:07separate team create a new type of
20:10communication messaging platform so what
20:12was the do you have a sense of kind of
20:14what the initial sort of push was for
20:16them because they had QQ still very
20:17popular I think more popular than WeChat
20:20even but it doesn't have nearly these
20:22sort of ecosystem power that we chat
20:25seems to like what was it that they were
20:28initially trying to create in WeChat
20:30well we chat and QQ slightly differ also
20:33in terms of which cities they cluster in
20:35so for example QQ it's a different
20:39demographic if it's a different type of
20:41city whereas WeChat is very common in
20:45Beijing Shanghai tier 1 cities China if
20:49you go to a tier 2 tier 3 city you might
20:51not see WeChat all over the malls but
20:53you might see more people using QQ to
20:56talk to each other but it's a different
20:57demographic in China
20:59so just getting back to your question on
21:02why payments is so critical to WeChat
21:04users how payments work in this app
21:06basically what you do is you go to one
21:08tab where you can see your WeChat wallet
21:11and here you can link your banking cards
21:14or your credit card and then once you do
21:17it once you can basically access
21:19payments throughout the entire
21:21application so there's a section in the
21:23WeChat app where $0.10 vets and chooses
21:26partners and that's called the WeChat
21:27Wallet and there you'll see things like
21:29hailing a taxi buying a movie ticket
21:32paying off your utilities but then there
21:34are also 10 million different official
21:36accounts out there actually more than 10
21:38million and a lot of them are unable to
21:40accept payments and so once you enter in
21:43your payments once on the WeChat Wallet
21:45you can basically use transactions
21:48throughout the entire thing so that
21:49actually brings up two things I think
21:51I'm curious about and think it's really
21:52interesting one is that these WeChat in
21:55China does it have tentacles outside of
21:58WeChat like can you pay for things with
22:00your WeChat wallet when you're not using
22:01WeChat you can use WeChat payments
22:04offline okay everywhere I shouldn't say
22:07everywhere and a lot of places so for
22:09example at a 7-eleven if you're buying
22:11something you can take
22:13you're we chat up takeout payments they
22:15scan a QR code and your payment is done
22:17okay so it definitely works offline
22:20third they're dabbling putting it in a
22:23lot of brick-and-mortar shops retail
22:24hotels large events concerts yeah that's
22:29that just seems really powerful to me
22:31because you keep reinforcing this idea
22:33that your central while it is the WeChat
22:36wallet no matter where you are it's
22:38always the thing you have where as I
22:40feel like and this is sort of
22:42oversimplifying but that there's
22:44something to the idea that I think
22:45people in the US when they're gonna pay
22:47for something they take out their credit
22:49card whether you're sitting at the
22:50computer to do it or whether you're
22:51sitting in a store to do it that the
22:52natural reflex when it comes time to pay
22:54for something is to take out your credit
22:55card and if you can shift that to have
22:57people take out their phone or you know
23:01go into WeChat to pay for it no matter
23:03where you are what you're doing that's
23:05hugely powerful I would think right this
23:08isn't an area where $0.10 doesn't have
23:09competition though I should say I'm Aly
23:11pay is still very very big in China as a
23:14term as a way of paying for something
23:16digitally and they also are well I think
23:20a lot of people use both and Ali pay
23:22also is accepted and a lot of offline
23:25brick-and-mortar places this actually
23:27answers to how I got interested in doing
23:28this story was basically that I think
23:32there's been a shift over the last say
23:37six months where messaging has really
23:40become a key piece of interface for all
23:44kinds of things like I I think the
23:46second story I wrote at Wired was about
23:49this startup called magic where their
23:51whole deal was that you could just send
23:53a text message and say you wanted
23:54anything and they would get it for you
23:56that was the whole thing and it was it
23:58was it was broken and it didn't work
24:00properly and it was just a bunch of guys
24:02building an app that wasn't great and
24:04they were like we're gonna get better at
24:05it but it's live now but it it was part
24:09of this whole revolution of things where
24:11you could do a lot of things just by
24:12sending text messages and it has a lot
24:14to do with you know how AI has gotten
24:16better and how we're able to process
24:18language and understand what people mean
24:21when they type things and computers can
24:23start to do some of this work for you
24:24and all this stuff and I think the idea
24:27messaging and and chat is an interface
24:29for doing really powerful things with
24:32technology and not just typing in a text
24:35box but all kinds of sort of
24:36conversation and messaging is
24:38fascinating and WeChat seems to have
24:40been on that way before just about
24:42anybody else and I'm not I don't know
24:45why that is like that you know maybe you
24:47were talking about how China it's harder
24:49to type in China so maybe that has
24:51changed things I think to me messaging
24:55as a way of just inputting data and so
24:58in in we chat messaging exists not just
25:01in text it also exists in audio formats
25:04voicemail might not be common in the
25:06States but leaving an audio message on
25:08WeChat is super common in China and I
25:12even think things like sending someone's
25:14location inside a chat is another
25:17example of a data input that you can
25:19send to a person or to an account yeah
25:21and oh that's a fee is so powerfully
25:25doable in a in sort of the course of a
25:28conversation where you're able to do all
25:29of this work kind of in bits and pieces
25:32as opposed to basically going through a
25:34decision tree where you're looking at
25:36menus and dropdowns and filling in forms
25:38and all these different kinds of things
25:40it just it's actually much more natural
25:43and direct to get what you want you know
25:45when you now create something that can
25:47allow for audio messages to be just as
25:49common for text there's a user delight
25:52that comes when you hear someone squeal
25:53or when you hear someone laugh that
25:55doesn't come across well in text right
25:58so so there are elements of adding all
26:00these different kinds of communication
26:02that actually enhances the communication
26:04it makes it better than what people had
26:06before like another example is the
26:09stickers the stickers on WeChat some of
26:12them are licensed and some of them are
26:13cute and animated but a bunch of them
26:15that are frequently used at least among
26:18me and my friends are are ones that are
26:20not not sold by $0.10 but you are
26:24actually able to take any gif any JPEG
26:27save it as sticker and send that along
26:29yeah and so a lot of times during
26:31especially Valentine's Day Christmas New
26:33Year's that's a very easy way to almost
26:36sound like a greeting card to someone or
26:38to send someone a message without having
26:41personal message yeah which is really
26:43cool because these stickers aren't just
26:44denoting emotions they're denoting
26:48I think audio is particularly cool that
26:51way I think there's you know we left
26:55phone calls behind a long time ago in
26:58theory anyway I don't think it's
26:59actually as true as people like to make
27:00it out to be but the idea that that
27:04that's not actually a good way to talk
27:07it's crazy it's a great way to talk so
27:10many more things with with your voice
27:12and by hearing someone else's voice that
27:15you just can't do with with text yeah
27:18and by I think I was talking to these
27:22two guys who built an app called chord
27:23which I really like and their whole
27:25interface is basically you you press and
27:28hold on somebody's face and you talk and
27:30then when you stop talking you take your
27:31finger off their face and it sends it to
27:33them and they're like the the great
27:35thing that we did was not let you send
27:37text I think they were like their whole
27:39your whole thing is is you're gonna poke
27:42on their face and you're gonna talk to
27:43them and they said they've seen is
27:45totally different kind of use because
27:47people can you can do it long and you
27:49can do it short and they're like well
27:50the part that sucked about phone calls
27:52was when your phone rang and you didn't
27:53want to pick it up and then you felt
27:54like a jerk for not picking it up like
27:55well if we can solve that and bring sort
27:58of the a synchronicity of this whole
27:59thing to our app and also all of the
28:03context and emotion and feelings and
28:06relationships that come with hearing
28:07somebody's voice that's really powerful
28:10and then when you can bake that into
28:12getting more work done to do things like
28:15book flights and get you know get movie
28:19tickets and instead of having to go back
28:21and forth and back and forth you can
28:22just kind of say what you want and then
28:25have it get done for you that's hugely
28:27powerful and that goes off you know in
28:28this whole sort of other direction of
28:30things that are starting to happen where
28:31you know you're able to whether it's
28:33Siri or some of the other kind of
28:36virtual assistants that are coming out
28:37that you can just ask questions I think
28:39what you're getting at which I
28:40completely agree with is talking is
28:42actually faster most of the time then
28:43typing something yeah and it gets back
28:45to the whole thing of like ultimately
28:47what people want and the the places
28:50people will gravitate is where they can
28:51communicate and be together and it
28:55as transactional as it might otherwise
28:57because it feels like you're having a
28:59conversation as opposed to you know and
29:01there's there's no right way to say it
29:03or there's no you know to make a payment
29:07press payment like that's not that
29:09doesn't you don't need that and as soon
29:11as you don't have that that goes a long
29:12way towards what you were saying earlier
29:13about making these official accounts
29:15feel more personal because you're you
29:17can communicate with them the same way
29:18you communicate with your friend there's
29:19no context switching there are no
29:21vocabulary changes and right words to
29:24use and right ways to use them it's just
29:26natural which is amazing and that's like
29:28if that's that should be the future of
29:31technology that seems like that's it
29:33that's kind of this neat moment that
29:35we're at now is where these things are
29:37starting to come along that work the way
29:39that we do and we don't have to remember
29:41how to use them we just use them the way
29:42we would and if they work yeah I really
29:45love how we chap focuses on the chat the
29:49conversation element of the app as the
29:51primary use case of the app so a lot of
29:55people in the States might not be aware
29:57but they actually have an area called
29:58moments which is very similar to kind of
30:00a social newsfeed where you're posting
30:02links or photos or or texts but by
30:05design that's actually not it doesn't
30:08even have a tab of its own you have to
30:09click on to I think that's the third
30:11time and it's the first choice on that
30:12time but it was by design not put as a
30:16primary tab because we tried wants to be
30:19known for communication which is
30:21something you are fully relying on you
30:23cannot function without as opposed to a
30:26place where you're getting all of these
30:27social updates it was by choice not put
30:31as a primary interests they wanted to
30:33keep it between people as opposed to
30:35public more in the sense that if you
30:37think we shot the main thing should be
30:39chats and conversations not a newsfeed
30:42of social elements so something that
30:44gets tricky though on the conversation
30:46element is WeChat is increasingly being
30:48used in the workplace and that's
30:50probably really hard for people in the
30:51States to see but a lot of Chinese
30:53companies will do a lot of a lot of
30:56communication knowledge is through be
30:58chat and it's for a number of reasons
31:00one by design the group chats can have
31:02up to 500 members which is actually a
31:04lot higher than a lot of the other
31:06messaging apps out there
31:08and when you're communicating you can
31:09use text you can use audio but you can
31:11also send Word documents PowerPoint
31:14presentations Excel I've actually even
31:17heard stories of VCS sending term sheets
31:19Wow through WeChat conversations and
31:22then so it from the IT side actually
31:25they even have unique functionality
31:27where they can control for
31:29confidentiality they can set it so that
31:31you can't forward specific messages they
31:33can tear your access so you only see
31:35certain parts of official accounts so
31:37they're really trying to structure the
31:39app so that it can be used both in the
31:41workplace but also personal the tricky
31:44thing is then your chat inbox now has
31:47messages from your boss right next to
31:49messages from your mother right next to
31:50a message from a celebrity that you're
31:52following and so there's this there's
31:54this intermingling of your personal
31:56professional life that's now very hard
31:57to tear apart and just even anecdotally
32:00I have friends in China who complained
32:01because now they're expected to be
32:03reachable 24/7 and there's no real shut
32:06off shut off from work well I just
32:09imagine like if I'm if I'm drinking I
32:12can I should not be trusted to not have
32:15one my boss's name by accident instead
32:17of my friend's name that sounds that's
32:18just that sounds dangerous
32:21but no I mean and that seems I think
32:24there's that's a real trend of kind of
32:27how people operate and I think you know
32:29seeing and this might be sort of a
32:31uniquely Silicon Valley thing but I
32:33think work in life are sort of bleeding
32:34together in a lot of ways for people
32:36starting to yeah yeah and I think the D
32:38it's the same with sort of public and
32:41private to where like the the lines
32:42between those things are much less clear
32:44than they once were and I get the sense
32:46that people worry about them a lot less
32:48than then they used to or then maybe
32:52they probably should but it just seems
32:54like it's it's the kind of thing where
32:55those it's there's this wide spectrum
32:58and the lines are increasingly not
33:00obvious and everybody's kind of
33:02perpetually walking on both sides trying
33:04to figure it out and people don't seem
33:06to worry about it as much like I have
33:08friends who you know drunk text they're
33:09bossed and it's not it's not weird
33:11no I I've done it I guess it's fine I
33:15just think that that's it it's
33:20fraught and and complicated and I think
33:22part of very complication and I think
33:24there's something nice about the context
33:27switching a little bit like I have a I
33:29have we use HipChat at work and I know
33:32when I am when I open HipChat I am doing
33:34work things and if I mean if I'm gonna
33:36talk to even the same people but not
33:38about work things I'm not gonna do it in
33:40HipChat and on the one hand that is just
33:43terribly inefficient because I'm talking
33:45to the same people in different places
33:47and they remember that I was also
33:49talking to them about work but now we're
33:52talking about other things but that's we
33:53as people are able to do those context
33:56switches but there's something there is
33:58something nice about kind of knowing
34:00where I am as I'm in a particular app
34:03and WeChat seems to just throw all of
34:04that out the window yeah and there are
34:06consequences to that decision right like
34:08in the in the moment section which is
34:11again like the newsfeed I've even seen
34:13in the last four years in the beginning
34:14I would see a lot of friends posting
34:16personal photos what is that they're
34:18family photos what they're doing each
34:20day and now I see far more links
34:22business articles I see much fewer
34:26photos of children interesting yeah I
34:28mean that's that's one thing I've always
34:29kind of wondered about and I think it's
34:32it's kind of what comes up when we talk
34:33about the difference between like
34:34messaging apps and social networks where
34:37social networks kind of necessarily
34:39become performant right like you're
34:41you're playing some sort of character
34:43whether it's business character on
34:45LinkedIn or you want to seem like you
34:47have a really fun life on Instagram or
34:49you know your kid is adorable on
34:51Facebook whatever it is like I think
34:52everybody becomes something other than
34:55what they are in totality but when you
35:00have messaging apps my impression is at
35:02least that I'm much more able to be
35:05whatever I want to be and not worry
35:07about it because there's a sense of
35:08there's a sense of privacy there and
35:11you're not you're not worrying about
35:12kind of who's seeing what and where and
35:15in what context right I mean I love
35:17snapchat for that reason yeah you know
35:19that that person doesn't have a stored
35:21memory of whatever you just sent them
35:22right there is one really cool thing
35:24that we chatted to kind of address that
35:26same exact issue is so on the moment
35:28section when you're posting photos or
35:30posting links they made one
35:33vision for functionality I think is
35:35really interesting which is if I comment
35:38on some photo or anything you posted
35:40only our mutual friends will see my
35:42comment and therefore that takes
35:44pressure off you as the person who
35:46posted the photo from amassing a lot of
35:48comments and likes because me as a
35:51person commenting I might just assume oh
35:53we don't have that many mutual friends
35:54but you might have a lot of other
35:56friends who sighs so there is much less
35:58of this concept of collecting a lot of
36:00likes or comments or comparing to other
36:03people because you can't see how many
36:05likes any posts actually has that's
36:07really and it seems like that requires
36:09kind of impressive restraint on their
36:12part to do that because I there's such a
36:14pull to want to make everything big and
36:18public it was it's a really easy thing
36:21to want to broadcast everything that
36:23everyone is doing because it makes you
36:25look good and it makes your thing look
36:26vibrant it makes people want to use it
36:28more and it's kind of impressive on
36:31WeChat sparked that they've worked so
36:34hard to keep that I think
36:35philosophically they've never confined
36:37themselves to a construct of a social
36:39network so they don't feel like
36:41everything needs to be public and if I
36:44interact with the brand that interaction
36:47doesn't have to be seen by the rest of
36:48the world and so because they're not
36:50focusing on a social network and they're
36:52building a mobile lifestyle where the
36:53goal is just to help you interact and
36:55connect with brands people companies
36:57services they aren't as limited are
37:02there metrics I just was I have no idea
37:04like are there do you get you know
37:06points on WeChat for doing anything like
37:09are there winners and losers of WeChat
37:11not in terms of like how many friends
37:14you have or how popular you have there
37:16are like leaderboards for example when
37:18you're playing games with each other or
37:20they have another cool feature recently
37:21which is them if you use any of the
37:24wearables you can track your steps first
37:28there's no follower account like there
37:29is on Twitter or anything now that okay
37:32I feel like that also goes a long way
37:35towards not kind of morphing the point
37:37of it because you're not competing for
37:39anything like you use it as you will use
37:41it and other people do and there's no
37:43thank you you're using the same thing
37:45different ways and everybody's okay with
37:46to other things which kind of right or
37:50push you towards certain sorts of
37:53metrics great whether it's likes or
37:55followers or or what-have-you and that
37:56that again is like that's the relentless
37:59pull back towards social network as
38:00opposed to being kind of a confined
38:03thing like WeChat seems to want to be
38:04this to me is the thing that's so
38:06different about WeChat from anything in
38:10the US I mean it seems like you know to
38:12keep coming back to Facebook but they
38:14they have Facebook loves to break out
38:16all of its possible options into
38:18different apps and they're like if you
38:20want to do this thing this way do it
38:21here and if you want to do it this way
38:22do it here and that just seems wrong
38:26it's just fundamentally you're you're
38:29losing all these opportunities to be the
38:31place that people go to do everything
38:33because I think you're exactly right
38:35that you want to be in a place like the
38:38miracle of WeChat is that they've built
38:40something that no matter what you want
38:42to do or what context you're in or how
38:44you want to do it you can do it in
38:45WeChat and that's kind of a design and
38:48engineering achievement more than
38:50anything else but it's it's that's
38:52amazing it's really hard to unseat
38:55because if you're doing 12 things well
38:56and somebody comes along and does you
38:58know six of those things even if they do
39:00all six better you're not going to leave
39:02the thing that does 12 things well and
39:03doing 12 things better than we chad is
39:06very very hard the reason why we tried
39:09is so convenient is it because it really
39:11is a place where a bunch of apps are
39:14within an app right and so what people
39:17don't realize when they're using
39:18official accounts is it's not
39:19necessarily stuck with the chat paradigm
39:21because it can basically show you a
39:24webpage that's wrapped inside of which
39:25hi it can give you a lot of app
39:27functionality and it can almost look
39:30like a native app in that sense and a
39:32lot of official accounts when they
39:33create the official account within
39:35WeChat they'll give you a good amount of
39:38functionality in that official account
39:39they might leave some things extra and
39:41so what's really great is users can get
39:43enough of the feature and functionality
39:45they need from the official account and
39:46if they need to they might go download a
39:48separate standalone app so for example
39:50in the WeChat wallet you can hail a taxi
39:52through DT so and you can get the entire
39:55thing done pay your tip everything
39:57through that integration but if you
40:00the functionality you might go and
40:02download the DD dots that application
40:03separately but I wonder it's it's
40:06interesting to me that that seems like
40:09and I say this without any knowledge of
40:11the actual data behind it but it seems
40:13like you have in doing so doing totally
40:15disincentivize anyone from going and
40:17downloading that app because if you can
40:19do a certain percentage of it or enough
40:22of it within WeChat and again this is
40:24you know part of the whole pitch of
40:25WeChat is if you can do it in there why
40:28leave and that I think to me and this is
40:30part of what I talked about in my piece
40:32was that that's there's part of that
40:33that's scary that there's once you have
40:37enough people using your app for enough
40:40things and often enough you have all of
40:43the leverage and and kind of at this
40:45point you you dictate whatever terms you
40:48want and you know I don't pretend to
40:51understand the political ambitions of 10
40:5310 and WeChat but they have so much
40:55power there's no obvious second best
40:58where it's like well this doesn't work
40:59anymore we'll all go over here and I
41:01think people are justifiably worried
41:04about that kind of thing and I think
41:05there's there's real worry and debate
41:08over how important and how good it will
41:10actually be if and when something takes
41:13over because there's this whole side of
41:17it that's wonderful and this is like
41:19this is the debate we have with Google
41:19all the time where it's like how much
41:21how much am I willing to give up for
41:22value and convenience and it's it's
41:24privacy versus convenience and it's like
41:26I'm gonna the more I tell you the better
41:29Google now is and the better Google
41:30searches and the better Gmail is and all
41:32these things whereas but then it knows
41:35more about me and that's a little scary
41:37and it's sort of directionless scary
41:39right now because the implications are
41:41not so obvious about what's gonna happen
41:43because for most people nothing has
41:46happened yet that that feels dramatic
41:49and bad with knowing information about
41:51me but I think with something like
41:53WeChat whether it's the power that it
41:55now has over brands - whether to dictate
41:58terms if it so chooses or to take more
42:04money or whatever it is I think it's
42:05it's just a complicated thing that I
42:08think is gonna have to get sorted out
42:10one way or another before people here
42:14you buy in in in a way big enough to
42:17give enough value back I'd say we chat
42:21since inception has has been very
42:24developer friendly and very friendly to
42:26third parties giving them a lot of
42:28flexibility and what kind of features
42:29and functionality they want to include
42:31but they also don't charge to create an
42:34official account maybe there might be
42:36that fear but so far it's unjustified
42:40right and that's the that's the funny
42:42part about all of this right is that
42:43it's not and all of that fear is is kind
42:46of its what if fear which is in a lot of
42:49ways useful and in a lot of ways not
42:51useful because you should always kind of
42:55be aware of the bad things that could
42:56happen but none of those bad things are
42:58currently happening and I think
43:00especially with things like WeChat and
43:03and Facebook and snapchat as they get
43:05bigger and more powerful and more
43:07understanding about the world like I
43:08remember when Google turned on this is
43:11just a few weeks ago when they turned on
43:12the location tracking so you could kind
43:14of see where you had been in Google Maps
43:15there were people who are like oh my
43:17gosh that's terrifying it was like well
43:18no you put your address in Google Maps
43:20like of course they had this information
43:21that's how they do their job and they're
43:23not doing anything with it because
43:24they're not doing anything with it but
43:26and I think it's it's perpetually it's
43:29the right debate and so debate that
43:31continues to be worth having but I think
43:32that's the big challenge going forward
43:35for something like this okay well that's
43:37all we have time for it thanks you guys
43:39for joining a six in Z podcast
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