00:00i am ben horowitz andreessen horowitz
00:03and i'd like to thank you all for coming
00:04we have a really exciting and thrilling
00:08guest tonight Mellody Hobson and I'm
00:12going to give a brief introduction since
00:14we live in the world of Google I won't
00:16go through her childhood and everything
00:18but she's the president of Ariel
00:21Investments which is one of the larger
00:25investment firms and with just an
00:27absolutely stellar reputation she's also
00:29a metro say you know like running a big
00:33investment fund is one thing but she's
00:36chairwoman of the board at DreamWorks on
00:39the board of some companies you may have
00:41heard of Starbucks and Estee Lauder
00:44and she runs something that I know she
00:47runs a conference called the black
00:48directories conference which is one of
00:51the very best business conferences in
00:53the world I think and I bring that up
00:55because it's important to know that I'm
00:57as an investor she's also like she's the
01:00type of investor who could actually like
01:02run a company quite easily and clinician
01:05- an investment firm and then she is
01:09married to a decent filmmaker he made a
01:12movie that some of you may have seen
01:14called Star Wars but the the big thing
01:20about melody is that anyone who you ever
01:23run into who knows her will say she's
01:26the real deal she's unbelievable and I
01:28had this experience two nights ago I was
01:32with the legendary musician Quincy Jones
01:36and his son is here tonight and uh
01:39various qt3 and he asked me you know
01:43what are you doing next week I was like
01:44oh I'm interviewing melody hops and he's
01:46like Mellody Hobson and you have to
01:48understand Quincy Jones literally knows
01:49like everybody like he knows guys he
01:52knows like the President of Israel he
01:54knows people like who were in the Third
01:56Reich and any 82 so he's like way too
01:59honest he doesn't like you know and he
02:04goes melody Hopson he's like wow she's
02:08the best I give her all my money like
02:10and because like she just keeps me going
02:13the best person in the world and so like
02:16that that's what kind of reputation she
02:17has so everybody welcome Mellody Hobson
02:19thank you so melody Ariel's logo is a
02:31turtle holding up a cup and I thought
02:34that's a quite an interesting logo and
02:36how does that reflect the firm's
02:39investment philosophy ariel has a turtle
02:42as a logo we've had it since our
02:43inception 32 years ago soon to be 33 and
02:46the idea is to really underscore the
02:48investment philosophy which is patient
02:50investing we call ourselves the patient
02:52investors and on our pitch book it says
02:55at the bottom patience wins and we feel
02:58very strongly that the core of what we
03:02arbitrage so the short-term market
03:05gyrations and volatility etc that exists
03:09and will always also always access in
03:11varying degrees allow us we we are able
03:15to take an operative an edge of those
03:18moments and because we take such a
03:20long-term view we look we can look
03:22beyond what is going on at any get one
03:25point in time and say ok in a normalized
03:27environment what does this company look
03:30like so that is part and parcel because
03:32we are patient we can think
03:34independently because we are patient we
03:37can be extraordinarily focused at what
03:39we do so I always use the line that an
03:42expert is someone who knows more and
03:43more about less and less you know if you
03:46need brain surgery you don't go to a
03:47internist so where the people are
03:50learning more and more about less and
03:51less but because we're very patient we
03:54can continue to peel the onion and go
03:55deeper and deeper in very very niche
03:58areas and then last but not least
04:00because we were patient we're able to
04:01build a team so how does that give us
04:04give me an example of like how that
04:08might play out on an investment like
04:10what's an investment that you've made
04:12where the world had turned on it in the
04:14short term a simple one that I think
04:16works for this audience and that
04:17everyone can understand a few years ago
04:19we bought Madison Square Garden and
04:20Madison Square Garden was at an
04:22interesting moment first of all it had
04:24the Dolan family that was an owner
04:26and they called it a Dolan discount
04:28because people didn't like the family
04:30running the business that they like on
04:32the next to which is well it's been
04:34named the Liberty it's you know that but
04:37it's also a lot of other things they own
04:40state you know Rockefeller sorry the
04:44radius Lee videos hall excuse me I
04:46couldn't get out fast enough they have a
04:48bunch of properties the LA forum
04:51Cadillac Theatre in Chicago so they own
04:53a bunch of properties around the country
04:56but obviously the Knicks are a major
04:57major asset and so in Madison Square
05:01Garden itself so the time that we bought
05:04it it was the NBA lockout yeah okay
05:08let's start with that that's a good
05:09short-term classic short term they were
05:12in a retrofit of the garden that was
05:15totally over budget I mean just they
05:19missed big and they were also at the
05:23same time about to renegotiate the
05:25television contract so we looked at
05:27Madison Square Garden more as a media
05:29play than as this conglomerate of
05:33various businesses that were put
05:35together so we said basketball will
05:38eventually be played again the stock is
05:41you know is that you know people have
05:42obviously sold off the company because
05:46of the immediate situation and we went
05:49to visit Madison Square Garden and we
05:52saw what they were doing with the garden
05:54inside and we said this is genius they
05:56created these sky boxes on the ground
05:57floor that actually you don't sit in the
06:00skybox you sit in the seat and then you
06:02go back to get your food if you've ever
06:03been there it was actually a brilliant
06:06idea billion way to use space back of
06:08the house and sell it at a premium so
06:10the even though they were over budget we
06:12said this is going to sell out and we
06:14said when you know all the television
06:16contracts that are being renewed because
06:18Sports is such a great asset and the
06:21next are the NEX that they've been
06:23renewed at a higher rate so when we
06:26looked at all that together we said this
06:28is a great asset and you could not
06:30rebuild Madison Square Garden in New
06:33York City if you tried because of the
06:35size of the the number of city blocks
06:38so we said there's a
06:40barrier to entry here that is pretty
06:42significant as we put all that together
06:44we bought the stock then Jeremy Lin came
06:49and you know they raised all of their
06:51ticket prices by 40% dropped right to
06:54the bottom line renegotiated their
06:55television contract that was one where
06:57we've just said this is a moment
06:58everything that has gone were on wrong
07:01has gone wrong it's priced in so let's
07:04just get beyond this and then say what
07:06does this look like seven when Linsanity
07:09do you sell even though that short term
07:10or how we ended up owning that stock for
07:13quite a long time we still own it and
07:15then we benefited from the spin-off
07:17right which was also another great
07:19moment no but since you yourself have
07:23public shareholders how do you so you're
07:28a long-term but they're not always there
07:32yeah they're not always and they do tend
07:34to be prone to panic and you know on
07:38Madison Square Garden the NBA lockout
07:40kind of lasted years or so they could
07:44have you know continued to be the Knicks
07:46and and lose all their games and trade
07:48away all their good players but
07:49interestingly they're sold out yeah it's
07:52like they sell out anyway they sell out
07:54you know it really all these French
07:56Chicago's I'm from Chicago it sold out
07:58so you know there may be a perspective
08:01of their winning or not winning but the
08:03the proof is in you we could look at
08:05data like season ticket holders buying
08:07every year that's data you can just see
08:10right so it gives you a great deal of
08:12confidence so would you're right we have
08:14public shareholders and our mutual funds
08:16and then we have institutional
08:17shareholders that we manage big pension
08:19fund accounts are endowments and
08:20foundations and there's no question we
08:23could call it the velocity of money has
08:25gotten much faster when I first started
08:27in the business I started Arial as the
08:30only place I've ever worked I graduated
08:32from Princeton and went to Ariel and
08:33I've been there for 25 years next year
08:35the average mutual fund investor held a
08:38fund for ten years then it dropped to
08:40seven now it's more like three for a
08:43mutual fund for a mutual fund not an
08:45individual stock oh my gosh and and to
08:51do mutual funds get electronic
08:54traded in the same way that stocks do or
08:57not as much or yeah or they're like the
09:00computer Center the picture there are
09:03people who do program trading around
09:05everything as you might expect and some
09:06do it on mutual funds
09:08the thing about mutual funds is a delay
09:09in pricing so what's really taking the
09:12place of that our ETF yes I say so you
09:15can't do a high-frequency mutual fund
09:16not really it's hard to do my next
09:20startup idea to so you said or you've
09:28been known to say that don't make
09:30decisions based on money which is a kind
09:33of a different sort of thing for an
09:34investment manager to say what do you
09:36mean by that like what do you make the
09:37decisions on if you're not making them
09:39on money so I got this advice when I
09:41first started working and it actually
09:43came from the person who's the chief
09:44investment officer of Ariel who started
09:46our firm john started a firm when he was
09:4824 years old when 24 year olds didn't
09:50start investment firms and go to pension
09:52funds and ask for money and he had an
09:54unusual way of coming to be just a an
09:58observed more than a casual observer of
10:00a stock market but obsessed with it and
10:02that his father gave him stocks every
10:04birthday and every Christmas instead of
10:06toys and he said in the beginning it
10:08wasn't very fun but he let him keep the
10:14dividend check so he was a 12 year old
10:15with cash flow I think said if he wanted
10:17to buy a candy bar he could and slowly
10:20he did in this modest portfolio started
10:22reinvesting the dividends etc so John
10:24this is the backdrop to the story of
10:26this is the chief investment officer of
10:28our firm he has started Ariel I'm 22
10:31years old and the first thing he says to
10:33me on the first day of working don't
10:35make any decision based on money so I'm
10:37like well that's just incongruent with
10:39what I would think an investment person
10:41would say and he said I believe people
10:44undervalue time and over value money and
10:48because of that they make a lot of
10:50decisions that are actually not rooted
10:52in the right set of circumstances so
10:56example he said a lot of people will
10:58take a job based upon money and not the
11:01job and they don't value and they may
11:05not talk them out of it but
11:06you know they may never be happy in that
11:09job but they're chasing the money it's
11:11not worth it right well it's your life
11:13yes or make big decisions about it could
11:17be marketing at Ariel or hiring somewhat
11:20at Ariel he said the biggest decision
11:22mistakes that he made is in the very
11:23very early years of our firm when we
11:26literally had no clients and no money
11:27under management he went to all of his
11:29friends and family and asked them to
11:31give him $20,000 each so that he could
11:34have a track record he started the Ariel
11:36fund which is now 2.5 billion dollar
11:39publicly-traded mutual fund and that
11:42that was to get $500,000 together to
11:44have a track record so he said during
11:47that period he was so confusing
11:49five hundred thousand dollars in our
11:51business is five thousand dollars a year
11:52one percent yeah so he said he was so
11:55concerned with you know making sure that
11:58he was very frugal and thoughtful that
12:01he let really great talent go away he
12:05didn't grab them when he could because
12:07he was concerned about making sure he
12:09didn't overextend himself and he said
12:11that was a bad decision that was making
12:13a bet a decision based upon money and he
12:16probably lost people who would have
12:17accelerated the growth had he hired them
12:21and then is there an application of that
12:25to investments themselves as well or is
12:28it is it more of a management life
12:30philosophy or is it also an investment
12:33philosophy like are their investment
12:34decisions that you should make based on
12:37Miami sounds like almost an oxymoron but
12:40I don't think we would say it that way
12:42because we're obviously modeling a
12:44return ya know and while we're taking a
12:47long-term view and we're patient
12:49investors we there's a sense of urgency
12:51right we don't want you to think we're
12:53like Zen hoping it works out we actually
12:57believe that a company lays out its
13:00goals and objectives and unless they
13:04have a very good reason that they don't
13:05meet them we shouldn't be there
13:07so that might change our investment
13:09decision but our decisions are made
13:12based upon what we believe the intrinsic
13:14value of a business is worth at Ariel we
13:16call that private market value so we say
13:20reasonable person pay if they were to
13:22buy this whole business or if it were
13:24broken up into pieces and sold and so
13:26ultimately there's a price applied to
13:28that we want to buy companies when
13:30they're selling at a 40% discount to
13:32what they're worth that to us creates a
13:34margin of safety for us and or 13 times
13:37or less next year's earnings which is
13:38why a lot of your companies don't follow
13:40the purview unless something has gone
13:43wrong yeah like that well generally for
13:47technology companies in that position
13:49it's probably not a good thing to buy
13:51well it's interesting
13:52not necessarily I mean Microsoft was in
13:55that from an earnings ratio absolutely I
13:58think got down to ten times yeah and you
14:01know it in the last couple years that
14:03our portfolio managers own it it's been
14:05a great stock for her we didn't know
14:07they were gonna fire Steve Ballmer but
14:10that's ticking know everything like this
14:13is true so one of the things we think
14:15about it Ariel we'll have a company
14:17where there'll be a subsidiary that's
14:18dragging down earnings or there's
14:21something broken inside the company or
14:23it could be a leadership issue although
14:24we tend to align ourselves what we think
14:26are strong leaders but we say what are
14:29the what is the likelihood that this
14:31company will let itself keep going in a
14:33way that is not on a good path right and
14:36so at some point you say with a company
14:38like Microsoft how much how much Mark
14:42and Bill Gates take right I mean all
14:46bomber says he opted out himself I mean
14:48he clearly has more at stake than Bill
14:50Gates mm-hmm in terms of his you know
14:53how he sold that how do you predict that
14:57or how would you think about it's hard
14:59to predict like really is a you know
15:01you're you are in our situation we are
15:04literally looking we do scenario
15:06analysis if this than this what would
15:10happen is and we're modeling actually
15:13the company based upon multiple
15:15scenarios right so it could be they shut
15:18down the division and take the loss
15:21they sell the division they fix the
15:24division and it starts to grow I mean
15:26we'll that'll be just one we used to own
15:28McCormick Spice Company a McCormick
15:31Spice Company is you know the largest
15:34their annual reports are scented with
15:37spices you get like paprika or cinnamon
15:42which is a way of becomes in a mylar
15:45envelope and McCormick Spice was
15:48interesting they had a real estate
15:50division that was like completely a
15:52debacle at McCormick Spice Company so we
15:55looked at that one like world's largest
15:57bus company sold to both the end-user
16:00consumer and the food company so if
16:03you're Sarah Lee or frack if you are a
16:06huge fire of their spices they are it
16:09but also we're buying it for our table
16:12interesting philosophy
16:13in a bad economy where people can't buy
16:16maybe as upscale and item like steak or
16:19shrimp or whatever it might be they buy
16:22cheaper items that they seasoned more so
16:29it ends up being counter cyclical in
16:31some ways but McCormick Spice Company we
16:34were modeling it we said there's no way
16:36this great business this unbelievably
16:39dominant brand let's this ridiculous
16:42real estate division take the company
16:44down and they sold it to rouse which was
16:47another one of our companies okay so you
16:50said you said two things earlier that I
16:52know that a lot of our portfolio CEOs
16:55are thinking is extremely interesting
16:58one john found you when you were 22
17:00years old which is like how did he
17:05identify you at that age and know who
17:10you're gonna be and then you've been
17:12there 25 years next year which is
17:15unheard of where we are the average
17:18American will have 11 jobs in their
17:19lifetime average and obviously tech it's
17:22much higher yeah and so and you know
17:25it's interesting you've probably had 11
17:28jobs a few count all your directorships
17:30and other work that you do right but but
17:33at Ariel the whole time so how is he
17:37accomplish that like one how does he get
17:40how does he identify talent like you dad
17:42early and then holy genius thing and I
17:45give John a lot of credit because I have
17:47struggled with us I haven't been able to
17:49replicate it in the same way John meant
17:52me when I was 17 that's even more like I
17:57said I know a lot of 17 year-olds and
17:58they just scare me they he met me when I
18:02was 17 now I wasn't your typical 17 year
18:05old I was very driven very focused for a
18:09whole host of reasons and I was a summer
18:12intern at Ariel when I was 19 years old
18:14when I was 20 John sent me to be an
18:16intern at hero price I was the first
18:18undergraduate intern they'd ever had and
18:21he said you know I've got this woman
18:22working with me she's great we happen to
18:24be the largest shareholder of Tyrael
18:25price at the time so obviously they the
18:28gentle nudge worked so it was sent to
18:30Baltimore to work on the research side
18:32for a very famous portfolio manager
18:33named Jack Laporte who managed the New
18:35Horizons fund which was a famous small
18:37cap fund and the joke at two replies was
18:39that they were training me for John
18:43so I leave I graduate from college and
18:45go back to Ariel and this is something
18:47that I have never seen or heard before
18:51John used to take me to meet people and
18:54we would go meet people we didn't know
18:56and he said your job is to get us in and
18:59I was literally like 23 24 years old
19:03you have to know John because John is
19:05like he needs that service like his
19:08personality is because he's sounding
19:11like because he's so genius on this it
19:14sounds like he's the most extroverted
19:16like totally enjoy you got a pull it's
19:19pulling teeth yeah he won't look he and
19:21I really be very uncomfortable kind of
19:24he's like the classic he'd fit right in
19:26and yeah probably a little probably I
19:29say this to him with love I'm like you
19:31had Asperger's and like there was no
19:33spectrum back then yeah you know like
19:35you like but he's genius and great and
19:38wonderful and slightly awkward and
19:41wonderful so I'm 24 and it's true he
19:47said he hired people to do things he
19:48couldn't do true story one day we he
19:51read an article about dick Parsons who
19:53was running time savings and loan he was
19:55featured in The New York Times Magazine
19:56section and he said melody get us in to
19:59see dick Parsons so dick Parsons in the
20:01article says he loved bacon so I wrote
20:06him and who doesn't love bacon wrote him
20:09a letter and I said you know I tried to
20:11connect some dots of how he might know
20:13us and we don't want anything we just
20:14want to come in and tell you who we are
20:16and what we're doing and if you say yes
20:18we will bring bacon and he said yes
20:24water with me he brought me to a steel
20:27otter we're literally like pipsqueaks
20:29coming into his office before Time
20:31Warner and what's a Time Warner right
20:33after that to be CEO oh so John would
20:35have me go and make this effort to you
20:37know see people he was on the board of
20:39print Co prints an investment management
20:41company and Jack Bogle from Vanguard was
20:45on the board as well so one day John
20:47called and he said instead of you
20:50actually getting us to Jack Vogel I'm
20:51gonna tell Jack Bogle I want to come and
20:53see him and I want you to follow up and
20:55so I'm emailing back and forth with Jack
20:58bull goes office and you know Jack Bogle
21:00says listen I'm really busy but I'm
21:02riding the train from New York to
21:04Philadelphia on this day buy a ticket
21:08and you and John can ride to
21:10Philadelphia with me yeah so we fly to
21:13New York to write the train to
21:15Philadelphia we get on the train and
21:18Jack Bogle is like you know industry
21:20legend you know invented Vanguard and it
21:25was a senior thesis at Princeton and you
21:27know this is you know someone who's just
21:29very very very it's we're on the train
21:35and John says I wanted melodies to meet
21:37you because she's gonna be president of
21:38Ariel and how are you were 24 I like
21:42fell off the chair I'm like what are you
21:43talking about and he said I think it's
21:45really important to expose her to all
21:48the people that she needs to know and
21:49help her but when she's 30 she's going
21:52to be President so that's awesome for
21:54you but I have to ask this as a CEO
21:58question what about the other people at
22:02Ariel that then make him like did they
22:04hear about it do they make him tell us
22:05were they it was interesting were you
22:07able to keep it contained or did you
22:09roll back in the office and go
22:11no I was in such shock I think it was
22:16brilliant for so many reasons but one
22:18being he I knew and then I knew I had to
22:23be up to it so I was like what do I have
22:26to do to kill it so he just read your
22:29personality and said if I say this to
22:31melody she's gonna fulfill it and then
22:36the second thing was I think it gave it
22:38was at that point I was probably six
22:41years away it gave everyone time and
22:45they knew I mean we all knew but it was
22:48a very it was a it kept me very loyal
22:52Arielle became my company - I mean a lot
22:55of things happen in that six year period
22:57and I tell you I I don't know how he
23:01knew to do that but he did Wow
23:04and I assume he didn't tell other people
23:07they were going to be President so he
23:08just needed that for you and there were
23:12you know there was one person who had a
23:13problem with it yeah and you know we you
23:18know he was like if it's a choice I
23:19choose her wow that's that's amazing no
23:23I haven't been able to replicate that I
23:24always joked with John I want me yeah I
23:28want the person who you could take all
23:30that off your desk and give it to
23:32like you do to me every day and he's
23:35like no no no that's you okay well the
23:38other thing I'll just tell you one other
23:39piece that I thought was interesting so
23:40early you know I'm having things thrown
23:42at me that we we divorced our mutual
23:45fund company had never been done before
23:46we took two operating mutual funds out
23:49of an operating mutual fund company
23:51called the Calvert group and one off on
23:53our own and I made this presentation to
23:55our board to say that we should do this
23:56we spent our life savings on it and it
23:59had all sorts of repercussions and at
24:02the time it was when they came to us it
24:03was 300 million dollars in assets and
24:05today in those mutual funds we have five
24:07billion dollars in assets so it
24:08obviously worked but John during that
24:12period which was you know
24:13extraordinarily difficult and hard and a
24:16lot of stuff was going on he was really
24:21smart about making it clear to me what
24:25were so one day this is the rule I walk
24:29into his office and literally I'm a
24:31pipsqueak like I'm literally like I was
24:33called John's grasshopper it was the one
24:35who just did everything he wanted me to
24:36do right so I walk into his office and
24:40I'm having a meltdown full-on about
24:42something not going well and I start
24:44crying and John is like the nicest most
24:48gentle person that you've ever met ever
24:50like has winnie-the-pooh in his office
25:00Winnie the Pooh stuffed animals all
25:03sorts of things he likes teddy bears
25:05so he's like this is not the playground
25:09and he said and I want you to understand
25:12something today and forever more you do
25:15not bring me any problems I give you
25:19problems to solve and I was like in
25:26shock and I just pulled myself together
25:28and walked out and then the follow-up to
25:31that this big issue that I was working
25:33on we're on a plane and I'm like you
25:36know deep in thought writing like crazy
25:37he's sitting right next to me and he
25:39says what what is wrong with you so I
25:42finally tell him what I was working on
25:43he starts laughing hysterically so I
25:46said to him why are you laughing it goes
25:47I'm so glad it's your problem and not
25:50no no what if he do you think he would
25:53have given that same kind of instruction
25:56to somebody else or was that like
25:57special for you because he knew who you
26:01were that was the role he wanted me to
26:03I was the fixer yeah I was not the
26:05person I was to simplify his life not
26:07make it harder ever I was my job was to
26:10leave his brain free to think about
26:13investing right right
26:17amazing so all right so are the other
26:20employees at Ariel like how long do they
26:23stay what's the time yeah long time so
26:26they're done that you and we have a
26:28hundred people approximately but there's
26:30a bunch of us that are really young but
26:32have been there for a long time so we
26:34have multiple 20 25 year you know
26:37fifteen years and the people are not 40
26:40years old so it's pretty amazing I mean
26:43we say patience is not just a slogan for
26:46us it's a way we do business and we want
26:48to attract people to our firm who take a
26:51patient view so when we read resumes we
26:54Nick's job hoppers if you've had too
26:56many jobs we we throw out your resume we
27:01said we said you're not gonna be the
27:03person who comes and stays here right
27:05because they haven't given those jobs a
27:07chance to work right and that's what
27:08John always says even with CEOs that
27:10were looking at where we're investing he
27:11said there's nothing worse than the
27:13person who is that some people move just
27:15in time yeah and we all know those
27:17people right where it's like don't know
27:20more do any startup CEOs here they fail
27:24up they go just in time before the thing
27:27falls apart and they can take credit for
27:29something and you never quite know what
27:31they built yeah no no well we we see a
27:36lot of that here and it's interesting
27:37because here you know where we're at
27:39this hyper competitive talent
27:40environment and you know it's an advice
27:44that I always give but it's very very
27:47hard for the CEOs to follow because the
27:51bar for engineers you have to be not
27:53just a good engineer you've got to be a
27:55great engineer and then there's only so
27:56many of those and then when shows up but
27:58guess what they were only at their last
28:00job two years you know do you take them
28:02or do you not and we're often did not
28:04people take them and I think that more
28:08often than that they're gone in two
28:09years so it's interesting as I've often
28:11thought you know from my glimpses at
28:14your world and times that I spend on the
28:17group on board that you know it's like
28:20mercenaries you know that to get that
28:23person who's truly committed to the
28:25company is so hard to do because there's
28:28that sense that you can trade up and so
28:31I get that it's harder probably in in
28:33the technology space than maybe what we
28:35do in terms of what we're looking for it
28:37is just a natural you know ebb and flow
28:40of people moving around yeah part of the
28:43challenges the companies themselves are
28:45ephemeral to a large degree so there
28:47aren't that many long lasting technology
28:50right Microsoft is one of the oldest
28:53technology companies you know they were
28:54founded in 1975 in your world that's not
28:58whereas in our world like guys older
29:02than them were like IBM military and and
29:06generally when you get really old you
29:08struggle in technology because the
29:10product cycles are so short sure it's
29:12actually that's a good segue into you
29:15know one of the big memes that we have
29:18in technology is it's a bad idea to go
29:22public because public investors are all
29:25just totally short term and that
29:29actually becomes extremely dangerous for
29:31a technology company because if you
29:34don't invest in the next product cycle
29:36which only makes your bottom line worse
29:39you're gonna be dead soon because no
29:42product cycle lasts more than you know
29:44five to ten years that's the longest and
29:46some are much shorter than that and you
29:48can see that with companies like you
29:51know Facebook got like roundly attacked
29:55in the public markets and by public
29:57market analysts and on CNBC for buying
30:00Instagram but that was the exact right
30:04thing to do and that the story is
30:06repeated and repeated repeated and so
30:09how would how would you advise us on
30:12that given your position as a public
30:14market investor so on which piece there
30:17well on that life we should go public
30:19because public market investors are all
30:21shorter I would wait as long as you
30:22possibly can and worried forever forever
30:27I think that I think it's interesting
30:31how Travis is talking about it at uber
30:32saying you know we're just starting to
30:34crawl and you want us to go to the prom
30:35I thought that was pretty genius that
30:38the one thing that is we see that is
30:40true as companies are going public
30:41faster than they used to go public so
30:44when you and I are talking about this on
30:46the phone I said if you looked at the
30:47history of companies being born and
30:50going public even in technology that
30:52that period is getting shorter and
30:55shorter and shorter and to be public is
30:58a very transparent existence maybe
31:02leading up to it with some of the
31:03filings you have to do obviously there
31:05transparency there when you get over
31:06certain number shareholders but it is a
31:09transparent existence and I think it at
31:12times if you are very concerned about
31:14public sentiment may lead you to do
31:16things that you don't want to do so I
31:18think you wait as long as possible I
31:20also think that the public the analyst
31:25engagement and and and what you have to
31:28do there is going to take a lot of time
31:30and energy that you have to learn how to
31:32handle I mean you're talking about how
31:34you have to go out and see your
31:35investors we own in some of our cases of
31:37Ariel stocks where we own 20% of the
31:39company and we call and say we want a
31:41meeting they stop what they do and give
31:43us a meeting they just do and that is
31:45you know challenging the stock market if
31:48you're twenty percent hold and start
31:49selling and it's not yelling it's just
31:52saying we want to sit down with you and
31:53understand whatever this issue is the
31:56way that I often tell people you know
31:58and what are those meetings like so what
32:00you're on 20% of my stock and you call
32:02me up in you're like Ben I'd like to
32:07you know what would I expect in a
32:10meeting like that and what are the kinds
32:11of questions that you want to ask me so
32:15we're not gonna ask you about a quarter
32:16we're not gonna ask you about any
32:18earnings short-term we don't care we're
32:21gonna ask you about long term issues
32:22we're gonna talk about strategy do you
32:24have a plan to win and it's not going to
32:29even though we're asking for a meeting
32:30we're talking to you every quarter one
32:32of the reasons we want to talk to a
32:33management team every quarter and we
32:35want the same people to do it they get
32:37to know the people and they can start to
32:39discern moods how they answer questions
32:42how upbeat or downbeat they are you get
32:45lots of nonverbal cues and that's very
32:49helpful especially when you've talked to
32:50some foreign for 10 years every quarter
32:54we ask questions that are different and
32:57you know I've heard Charlie one rose
32:59once say it's not the first question
33:00it's the follow-up though it's always
33:03about the follow-up and so many people
33:05leave the follow-up on the table which
33:07is the critical issue we actually use an
33:10organization called BIA associates
33:12business intelligence advisors ex-cia
33:15agents who help us in in
33:19and they littering the light they are
33:23unbelievably great they literally train
33:27you to understand and know when someone
33:30is uncomfortable when you're starting a
33:32probe so it's not some kind of all the
33:34things you think it is like eye contact
33:36or they shifted it's not it's not that
33:38simple generally what happens when
33:41someone is uncomfortable they do a
33:42cluster of actions at once they'll like
33:45move in their chair or wipe their brow
33:47look away they're a few things happen
33:49that shows their their body gives away
33:51the issue the other thing they teach us
33:54to do is again not ask the obvious so
33:56here's a simple example we would ask a
34:00you know reg FD means they can't tell us
34:02something that they're not telling
34:03everyone right so we will say we don't
34:07want to ask you about next quarter the
34:09worst will say God considering how oil
34:13has traded down so dramatically we
34:16wouldn't be surprised if you missed
34:18earnings by 50% will come with the wild
34:20answer that's called planting a virus in
34:24the goal is to see how they react and if
34:26they say like oh god what are you
34:27thinking that's crazy
34:29or if they don't they could be then you
34:31know you're closer than not you'll ask
34:38that's very tricky presumptuous learned
34:43carrot works better than stick you don't
34:45yell at people you want them to feel
34:47aligned with you and we are they we are
34:49in it together with them we are owners
34:51of their business with them we often own
34:53varied we are often the largest
34:55shareholder of the companies were
34:56invested on especially on the domestic
34:58side if you say that to me and I go we
35:02could miss by 50 percent
35:04like or do you just like sell my stock
35:09no it could be the person says something
35:12like you know it's gonna be really tough
35:15and you know we're looking at everything
35:19you kind of know you're in the right
35:20ballpark well we may be saying at that
35:22point are we gonna average down because
35:24this is a temporary moment they're going
35:26to report they're gonna disappoint and
35:27then we're gonna go in and buy if we
35:30have that high level of conviction and
35:32then that way over the long term it ends
35:34up being an even better return so the
35:36stuff that we've been doing that on
35:37lately that has been just a real problem
35:40child is this company called Bristow so
35:42Bristow is a helicopter company that
35:44takes oil workers back and forth to oil
35:47rigs as far as 600 miles offshore this
35:55is the perfect example of an aerial
35:57stock yeah they trade in tandem with oil
35:59and their contracts have nothing to do
36:01with oil prices because they have
36:04contracts that are stand and wait for
36:07the client because if there's an
36:08accident or a rig they have to get there
36:10very quickly right so their contract is
36:12three to five years traded with oil so
36:18annoy us down you buy it regardless
36:21that's very good but their numbers but
36:24they'll still hit their numbers anyway
36:25well they are cess they're they they're
36:27on long term country they've had some
36:29issues that have that have affected
36:32their earnings because they have a
36:33search-and-rescue business that's pretty
36:35significant and they provide search and
36:38rescue for the UK government's way the
36:40oil business is so dirty like really
36:42baby they literally have guys in
36:44helicopters to search and rescue for
36:47like the people who died in the oil rig
36:49fires no or it could be search and
36:50rescue for anything so in this in the
36:53country of Britain they are the
36:54outsourced provider for search and
36:56rescue for the country for the country -
36:58even though they're number two
36:59competitors based in Britain yeah
37:02interesting interesting right the stock
37:05is trading for less than all the
37:08helicopters have you sold them
37:10interesting thing about helicopters they
37:12don't appreciate the way other vehicles
37:14do because every five years you have to
37:16replace the engine and the rotor you
37:17basically have a new helicopter every
37:19five years okay so that's already baked
37:21into the price yeah so we do all that
37:24math and say right this makes a lot of
37:26sense okay so when we have those
37:28conversations with them we are going to
37:31add the issue with them is they have to
37:32put a hundred million dollars in their
37:33search-and-rescue business in the UK so
37:35people think they're going to raise
37:36equity we don't believe they are we
37:38think they're gonna just borrow the
37:39money so the stock has traded down on
37:41yeah yeah very very very interesting so
37:45I I know kind of from previous
37:49conversations with you that you you're a
37:52student of leadership and you and you
37:55look at leadership and the companies
37:57that that you're invested in what do you
38:02look for you know in those conversations
38:05from the CEO to go you know this is
38:09somebody who knows where they're going
38:10who can get the organization there and
38:13like maybe he's got a bad quarter maybe
38:15she's got a bad quarter but I'm not even
38:18worried about it because I know like
38:19this this is a person and when you go I
38:21don't care how good the quarter is like
38:24this thing is going to be in trouble
38:25over time so you're always worried about
38:27something I mean I wish I could say
38:29we're never worried because anything can
38:32but I would say we're looking for
38:34leaders who are aligned with the
38:35shareholder if we see CEOs who don't own
38:38any stock that's just not good if we
38:41CEOs who you know pay themselves too
38:44much or where you have a closely held
38:46business and five family members are on
38:49the board no yeah you know that and
38:52they're all making you know huge they
38:54have sort of phantom titles and big
38:56paychecks those are the kind of things
38:58we don't like to see we like to see
39:00companies that that where the CEOs are
39:03smart allocators of capital that's
39:05really important and as you've already
39:08suggested they have a vision and they
39:09can articulate with that vision because
39:11remember we're going in as value
39:13investors when something's wrong
39:14something has not gone well if we're
39:17interested in your company right right
39:19so it seems like melody shows up I guess
39:26you probably are they probably already
39:27know they have problems so yes no but
39:30they love us when we show up because
39:31we're such a long-term investor right
39:33shareholders I mean company management
39:35teams want Ariel in their stock because
39:38they know we're not gonna trade around
39:39and whipsaw they're come they're sent
39:40their shares right right well and also
39:43you've got potentially very large
39:47built-in gains I remember when my stock
39:49went to 47 cents 35 cents but the people
39:54who invested then how
39:55forever because you know they have all
39:58the way to 1425 because they if you
40:01could buy it then then you would take
40:04the time to understand what it was
40:05whereas if you're buying it on the rise
40:07you're just buying momentum so really
40:10are asking yourself do you believe in
40:11the people you know there are certain
40:13people who hype everything and we want
40:16to avoid that and there are certain
40:18people who are truth tellers you know
40:20they're telling you the pros and cons
40:21what they're really confronting what's
40:23going well and what's not going well so
40:25that you have an honest assessment that
40:26you can look at it and hopefully an
40:28unbiased way we have to force ourselves
40:31we talked a lot about behavioral finance
40:32not to get anchored and what was and to
40:35really try to understand what could be
40:37you know Warren Buffett as a way of
40:39saying you know don't get mad at the
40:40stock it doesn't know you own it you
40:42know you know if it goes down you know
40:45you're looking at it fresh from today
40:47not what you paid for it and that's very
40:49very hard for some people to understand
40:51yeah no question and so like of the
40:57companies you look at like how often are
41:01they truth tellers versus hi people we
41:04are avoiding trying to avoid the high
41:06people trying to like of the CEOs that
41:10you look at like how unusual is it for
41:14the CEO to be honest is that most of
41:16them is that 25% of them no I think ours
41:19are largely you know if we're investing
41:21alongside of them we believe in them and
41:23that doesn't mean we always get it right
41:24we get leap you know that's the one
41:26thing about again investing your batting
41:28average doesn't have to be a hundred
41:29percent to do very very well
41:31so we miss sometimes we get we invest in
41:34the wrong person or the the strategy is
41:37not doable and of the deals that you
41:39look at like how often would you invest
41:42we look at a lot of things before we buy
41:45mm-hmm we look at a lot so our universe
41:49is about in our small cap product is
41:51about four hundred stocks but we only
41:53own 40 and if we found a new name we
41:56wanted to buy it would force the name
41:57out of the portfolio we can't we won't
41:59go over 40 we like less is more so we've
42:02concentrated portfolios Rupal Bhansali
42:04who runs our international and global
42:06portfolio you know she's looking at
42:09Sakshi eliminates two-thirds of them
42:11right off the top first process is one
42:13of elimination and only she describes it
42:15which I love she says she assumes she
42:17doesn't want to own anything until she
42:20can't reject everything is a rejection
42:23and like what is the basis for like
42:26rejecting all these stocks so lots of
42:28things you it could be anything from the
42:31businesses to cyclical it has too much
42:34of a commodity emphasis that which is
42:36something we cannot predict we want
42:38companies that have brands or franchises
42:39that have moats around them as Warren
42:42Buffett talks about that are very hard
42:45to to copy or to for new competitors to
42:50come in and or they have some defining
42:53aspect of them this gives us great
42:55confidence in its long term but so we we
42:58don't like commodity businesses we don't
43:00like new people doing new things for the
43:03first time we we actually avoid that
43:05where you don't you can't see any
43:07history or track record so that's not to
43:10say we won't buy an IPO we usually are
43:12buying cold IPOs but we're buying IPOs
43:14that the company's been in business for
43:16enough time for us to look at the
43:18history but it sounds like you start
43:21with the business not the financials and
43:24the financials come next right okay
43:27interesting but we're screening for a
43:29whole host of issues I mean we're
43:30looking at thousands of companies yes
43:32yes yeah so there's plenty to look at so
43:36what what's an investment that you
43:38didn't make where you said like that's
43:40like we're taking out off the list in
43:43you and then went back and said boy that
43:46John has one that he talks a lot about
43:48so we have had a tremendous we had
43:50tremendous success over the years in
43:52casinos we owned Caesars three times and
43:55they were you know obviously leveraged
43:58buyouts all sorts of things happened
44:00along the way that made that just a
44:01really wonderful stock for us when we
44:04owned it and John at one point was
44:07looking in the casinos casino space in
44:112008/2009 Mandalay Bay was the stock he
44:15didn't buy because he thought there was
44:16too much debt and because that will be a
44:22and especially no you know death is
44:29poison if your small cap and you can't
44:32you know you don't have the cash flow
44:34you can't find finance it's it's a
44:37disaster so debt interest coverage
44:40ratios we play a ton of attention to and
44:43Mandalay Bay was one that was really on
44:45the edge on the death side even though
44:47the cash flow there is unbelievable John
44:49didn't buy the stock he still talks
44:51about it still it's like I missed that
44:53Mandalay Bay you know hits spectacular
44:56returns from the bottom spectacular and
44:59then he just misunderstood there or he
45:01didn't weigh his own principle the core
45:03business hardened nothing I think he
45:05felt he was discouraged by the debt
45:07piece but the debt piece was manageable
45:09because of the cash flow and so it was a
45:11little bit of a chicken and egg thing
45:12yeah so I'm gonna switch gears a little
45:15bit or a lot bit your husband George his
45:19entrepreneurs story is quite an amazing
45:21story in that he was the entrepreneur
45:24that no investor believed in at least
45:26having watched the making of Star Wars
45:28it's just an incredible story if you
45:30haven't seen it they tried to shut down
45:33the movie I don't know how many tell
45:34like every week they come in like we're
45:35setting it down like it's over and then
45:37he finally negotiated that the movie go
45:41on by saying like you don't have to pay
45:45for this film at all all I want is the
45:49merchandising rights for the sequel and
45:52the next sequel for Phil and they gave
45:54it to him and it was like the greatest
45:56deal anybody's ever cut in the history
45:59of mankind you can imagine that so he is
46:03like the ultimate person that nobody
46:04believed in and what do you learn from
46:08that knowing him and who he is and do
46:12you look for that sometimes in companies
46:14well your facts are close but a little
46:17over corrected the original Star Wars
46:20budget was ten million dollars and
46:22George made it for 13 the board actually
46:29greenlit the movie and edit people like
46:31Princess Grace on the board of 20th
46:33Century Fox at the time
46:35he was paid a director's fee for writing
46:40for for directing the movie and he was
46:43so concerned when he wrote the original
46:45Star Wars the script was so long it was
46:47a hundred pages that he divided it up
46:50into three movies and said no matter
46:52what I will get these movies made no
46:54matter what so the first movie was made
46:57it ended up being this giant success it
47:01was in the theater for over a year like
47:04we can't even imagine that
47:09so now it's time to make the sequel so
47:12they say he's coming off of American
47:14Graffiti which it was made for $700,000
47:17and grossed 100 million and he's coming
47:20off of Star Wars he's gonna ask us for a
47:23huge amount of money for this next one
47:25if they thought he was going to judge
47:26the terms of the deal right she said no
47:28I won't change the terms of the deal but
47:29I want the because I want to make these
47:31two others I want the sequel really cut
47:33the front end right exactly so Bay there
47:38was no such thing as licensing yeah
47:40there were no action figures
47:42there was no he said the you know toys
47:44were like GI Joe and they were dolls
47:46right were twelve and twelve inches tall
47:49so he would he thought the licensing
47:51would be that they could do t-shirts and
47:53the t-shirts would be a form of
47:55advertising and so that's what he
47:57thought he was doing and then it turned
47:59into obviously told you know fifty
48:04thousand separate licenses and all these
48:06other things and so they gave him that
48:10this is classic corporate America yeah
48:13they gave him the sequel rights in order
48:15to make their quarter there were a
48:22million dollars off which was George's
48:24fee Wow and what did the ballpark what
48:27were all those rights worth that they
48:29did right there we know four billion
48:31dollars it was you know Lucasfilm was
48:34eventually sold for but you know and
48:37obviously all the revenues and the value
48:38that were generated over those forty
48:40years but you know was a big mess yeah
48:42but it was to make their quarter that
48:44they made that trade but knowing that
48:48that you have an entrepreneur like that
48:50who's got the confidence in himself to
48:53cut the deal but then even he didn't
48:56know what he had how do you think about
49:00when you're looking at new entrepreneurs
49:03or new businesses like does that affect
49:08do you see George in any of these people
49:11like like okay I know what that is that
49:13person's gotta be I see George more in
49:16investors than I see in the companies
49:18just because of the vantage point that I
49:21have so we to dinner with Mario gabelli
49:23Mario gabelli is a great media investor
49:25great and sitting down with Mario
49:28gabelli and having Mario talk about
49:30media for the last 40 years with detail
49:34that was like at a level of detail that
49:37I've never it was exquisite like
49:39earnings for Time Warner in 1989 you
49:42know where I'm like I just miss up and
49:45see if he's right and he's right
49:46you know just exquisite that was the
49:49kind of you know that kind of conviction
49:51around a set of beliefs and seeing
49:54something that other people don't see I
49:56see that a lot with some of the great
49:58investors that I really admire and them
50:01again taking the long term view George
50:03was in it for the long term he will tell
50:06you he did nothing to make money he did
50:10he was practicing his craft and he
50:13happened to make money but he ended up
50:15being incredibly thoughtful about how to
50:19monetize those assets so for example one
50:22of the things I saw it said to me was
50:23every movie had different stuff yeah
50:27different toys to different race yeah
50:29yeah yeah we put different things in the
50:32movie to drive his merchandising
50:34business you said he wasn't in it for
50:37the money for him it was about the story
50:42first you know this is what he says
50:44people think that in the movie business
50:46you can have a property and just have
50:50merchandise and he says it's very very
50:52hard there are 10,000 named characters
50:54in Star Wars he's like we all made ten
50:58thousand named characters
51:00you know it does always seem so
51:02amazingly intricate like one of the
51:05things that that that we tech people
51:07love about it is just like the just
51:10sheer force of imagination to create
51:12that whole thing with all those all that
51:15stuff well it's a whole nother world
51:16like it's so he built out like Jim been
51:19populated I guess when Jim Cameron did
51:22Avatar yeah the New York Times called
51:24George and they said they were making
51:25average hired Skywalker and he said they
51:28were mixing it at the end and they did
51:29some of the visual effects so he said
51:32the New York Times called him and they
51:33said well what do you think about avatar
51:35and George at scene and he's like I will
51:36just tell you one thing it's very hard
51:38to create a world so when you go to our
51:41if you go to George's writing room yeah
51:43every planet has a binder and when I
51:47went there and saw this for the first
51:48time I was like this is the level of
51:51detail that you are with your business
51:53that these entrepreneurs are in this
51:55room with their startups that the
51:57Twitter product guy was telling me about
51:59his new product it's the same level of I
52:02mean fanaticism and detail so you pull
52:06language clothes plates silverware
52:09terrain like it's this big Wow every
52:15every planet hoth same thing you know
52:20he'd go you go on and on you said see
52:22next to his bed he just writes names
52:23yeah so one day I said to George I made
52:27a joke with him I was like you know you
52:28really need to loofah and he's like
52:31that's gonna be the character in Clone
52:33Wars and I was like and he was like
52:36literally like like wrote down loofah
52:39Panetti it was a character Wow Wow
52:43like so what sound intimidating when you
52:46when you have the baby to name the baby
52:52like is this baby gonna be in Star Wars
52:56not intimidating but there is a genius
53:00there that has been very his brain and
53:03the brains of his friends they work in a
53:06completely different way probably more
53:08similar you know a lot of everything he
53:10did was tech based so you know he sold
53:13Pixar to Steve Jobs when it was a
53:15medical device company that and they
53:17when Ed Catmull wanted to take it into
53:20the direction and John Lasseter of
53:23he created thx sound he yeah thx was
53:31from his first movie thx 1138
53:34he created edit droid which was a way
53:37that they they edit movies I mean there
53:39are all these he used technology to
53:41serve the art and he always tells people
53:44that art is just basically a process of
53:48hitting up against technology and he
53:50gives you this like lecture on it that's
53:52brilliant where he talks about the fact
53:54that the greatest thing that ever
53:55happened to artists was oil paint being
53:57able to go into a tube which allowed you
53:59to go outside you know and hero because
54:02before that it was frescoes yeah and you
54:05did those in the dark a little
54:10depressing you chair the board of
54:14DreamWorks so when you you know are
54:18looking at what they're doing and they
54:20are you know they're they're kind of in
54:22the they're almost like modeled off of
54:24George's work in terms of Technology and
54:27in the kind of creativity that they do
54:31do you bring some of what you learned at
54:34home to the job and say you know like I
54:38know how this gets done but like the way
54:40you guys are thinking about that I think
54:42going aboard you serve a role you are a
54:47representative of shareholders in your
54:49fiduciary my job is not to be the
54:51creative force at DreamWorks right my
54:53job is not to even create critique
54:55that you know we watch a lot of movies
54:58in our board meetings which is also
55:00pretty cool and fun yeah you know a lot
55:02of board meetings are we're just in a
55:04movie theater and it's interesting
55:07because we come out and everyone who are
55:09taking notes the next board meeting I go
55:12to I would like to see it they say
55:14really good film and I say I'm always
55:16wrong yeah what I love other people
55:20don't what I don't love is like a giant
55:22hit so I'm I don't guess my job is
55:25process you know big issues process
55:31budget vision you know have we
55:34diversified our business enough to live
55:36through all the things that could happen
55:38when you only make two movies a year
55:39right and that's the giant source of
55:42your revenues so those are the things I
55:44spend a lot of my time on not did I
55:46laugh at this joke because that's not
55:49what my expertise is my expertise is the
55:52management and governance of the company
55:54and making sure that we're holding the
55:56team accountable I mean Jeffrey has
55:58voting control of heir of DreamWorks
56:00which is interesting you know both of my
56:03DreamWorks Anesti have voting control
56:05and to be with people who hold voting
56:07control and make sure that doesn't get
56:11in the way of them making the best
56:13decisions for the company I know that
56:15that may sound counterintuitive but it
56:18really is something like if you have an
56:20independent board in there you want to
56:22make sure that your own point of view
56:25doesn't limit you so is it it's almost
56:29as though you're you're bringing
56:32perspective so they there's no reason
56:35for them to lie to you because they have
56:36but in control but they might be
56:39deceiving themselves or you know
56:43certainly when you have those kind of
56:44executives and certainly there are a lot
56:46of them in this room who have those
56:48stock structures you want to challenge
56:52their thinking and you've got to be able
56:54to go toe-to-toe with them in a way that
56:56is not aggressive where they turn off to
56:59being open to the point of view so I ask
57:02questions always so it'll be a simple
57:05thing like will debate it be debating
57:07that we're going to do something or not
57:09and to one of my standard questions
57:11which I was told you is that I told you
57:12already told you is will we do this if
57:14we were private right and it's
57:16interesting the number of times someone
57:18might say for sure mm-hmm and you say to
57:24yourself well then that just answers the
57:25question yeah because the not doing it
57:28is more about how's the market gonna
57:30react how will we explain it to Wall
57:32Street what will be but that's not
57:34necessarily in the best interest of the
57:35company long term so when they say for
57:37sure I'm like what are we debating you
57:40know it's interesting because there's
57:42probably an analog for private companies
57:44which would you do this if would you do
57:47this if you were pressed in attacking or
57:49would you do it if you're a public or
57:51would you do it in the light of day
57:52right yeah which is it you know it's a
57:55it's not about being honest or dishonest
57:57because I don't spend time with people
57:59or involve myself with people where I
58:01have to ask myself that question I
58:03assume a high level of integrity and we
58:06assume actually that with most of our
58:08management teams unless we were led to
58:11believe otherwise if we're sitting with
58:13people and we believe they're being
58:15straight and honest with us everything
58:17won't go right so we're not going to
58:19assume that it went wrong because they
58:21were lying to us if they don't have a
58:23good answer right then that's a
58:25different story but the back-and-forth
58:27with someone like Jeffery is so robust
58:31and so energized because he wants you to
58:37poke holes and he wants your best
58:39thinking and he doesn't want you to
58:41handle him with kid gloves and you end
58:43up with a better outcome when a bunch of
58:45diverse people around the table
58:46challenges thinking and diverse in terms
58:48of all of our backgrounds so we come at
58:50it from all different ways at the Wall
58:52Street perspective of the media
58:54perspective you know we have Mike
58:56Montgomery who is the investment banking
58:57perspective we have Tom Freston who has
59:02the big media perspective Viacom via set
59:05cetera so everyone's in that room with a
59:08different point of view we used to have
59:10Nathan or Nathan Myhrvold and we used to
59:11have Meg on our board I mean the board
59:14was just unbelievable and Paul Allen and
59:16David Geffen I mean it was like I called
59:19it moguls R Us you know it was like but
59:22someone asked a question it was you know
59:25this wasn't the guy holding all the
59:28you know you don't invite those kind of
59:30people into the room if you're that guy
59:32right right and you don't get you don't
59:35put something over on that group you
59:38know you just don't and if you think you
59:40are you're really wrong it's like the
59:43best forever movies moguls it's
59:47so we I've got over my time a little but
59:51I just want to say thank you to melody
59:54this has been incredible I've been so
59:56like fascinated but I caught up and ran
59:59right by it but thank you everybody
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