00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6nz podcast
00:02today's episode is based on a
00:04conversation between actor David Oyelowo
00:06and Ben Horowitz that took place last
00:09month at the a 16 Z special screening of
00:12the new Disney movie now out queen of
00:14cat way the movies directed by Mira Nair
00:16and based on a book by Tim Carruthers
00:18about Ugandan chess master Fiona Moe
00:21David plays one of the main characters
00:22in the movie Robert Curtin day the
00:24mentor who taught chess to kids in the
00:26slums of Kampala Uganda that's nice very
00:41nice congratulations first of all I know
00:43I'm making just a beautiful film and
00:46thank you thank you thank you I really
00:50really really appreciate that reaction
00:53it was a it was a labor of love for us
00:55as you can probably tell from watching
00:57the film these are images we don't tend
00:59to get to see of people we don't tend to
01:02get to see in this way and as a child of
01:06Nigerian parents myself having ah I feel
01:15so much more comfortable now
01:17but anyway it's just amazing to be able
01:20to share these kind of images with you
01:22guys and pretty to be so well received
01:23so thank you crazy and you one of the
01:25thinks you were saying to me earlier was
01:27that there's a lot of movies about
01:30Africa filmed in Africa but they don't
01:33show a part of Africa that you really
01:36wanted to show and can you tell us about
01:38that yeah I mean look it's no secret
01:43that the narrative thus far
01:46cinematically when it comes to Africa
01:50has been largely through white eyes I
01:54love all you white people in here but
02:00you know and not only through white eyes
02:01in terms of who's making the movie but
02:03in terms of the protagonists as well you
02:06know this phrase white Savior has become
02:09something that is more well known now
02:12that's largely how we have seen Africa
02:15as an African myself I know for a fact
02:17that we are people who are very self
02:21possessed who have more than enough
02:23ability to progress individually and
02:26autonomously and you don't tend to see
02:28that in film and you know diversity and
02:33inclusion have become buzzwords in
02:35Hollywood thankfully but this is it in
02:39a wonderful executive at Disney by the
02:42name of tender and the gander who is
02:44here where are you take a bow I went out
02:54tender because this is diversity and
02:56inclusion in action he is of Ugandan
02:59there is no way I think that this film
03:02will be getting made if he didn't make
03:04it his passion and he didn't walk it
03:07down the halls to get it made and I
03:10think you know built into this from a
03:12diversity and inclusion point of view
03:14it's made by meer Ania a woman who yes
03:17give it up for Meera you know a
03:22wonderful female director who was called
03:25Uganda her home for over 27 years I
03:28think that a female director directing
03:33this is why you have an 11 year old girl
03:37as the center of the story that's why we
03:42need female directors that's why we need
03:45different voices telling these stories
03:48it's because of tender niganda being at
03:52the center of getting this made that my
03:54character isn't a white missionary which
03:57is what it would which is what it has
03:58been up until you know when I say a
04:00white serviço that's how this film would
04:02have got made 10 years ago and what it
04:05got made today if different people had
04:07made it several studios that would have
04:10won it Ryan Gosling whose fabulous
04:13and probably very compelling as a chess
04:16teacher you know another thing that
04:20really struck me about the movie was
04:22there was poverty but that wasn't the
04:24story it wasn't all about sadness it
04:26wasn't all about struggle there were a
04:29lot of other aspects to it and in our
04:31conversation earlier that seems like
04:33that's much more realistic view of how
04:37it really is to live even in katway yeah
04:41one doesn't want to deny the inherent
04:44problems that exist anywhere in in a bid
04:48to redress the balance of what has gone
04:50on before you just want to tell the
04:52truth and you know I was in Uganda over
04:56ten years ago and I did a film there
04:58called the Last King of Scotland and we
05:10had a great experience doing it and one
05:12of the my lasting memories from that
05:14film is our makeup artist who is a lady
05:17from London very affluent lady we were
05:20in Uganda and we all just couldn't get
05:23over how people who had and have so
05:26little can be so joyful a lot of them
05:29existing on a banana or two a day yeah
05:33and she came home from our time in
05:35Uganda opened her fridge her full fridge
05:40breakdown and the reason she had this
05:43breakdown she told me in an explicit
05:44time she said I looked at my fridge full
05:47of food and I knew that in my life I
05:50don't have an iota of the joy I saw in
05:54the faces and in the lives of people who
05:55have nothing and it made me completely
05:59reassess my life and what I deemed to be
06:02of value and that to me is why a film
06:07like this is of value because to be able
06:10to see joy genius ingenuity family love
06:16grace in the midst of that is
06:20universally beautiful I think anyone
06:23anywhere can appreciate the value of
06:25that that's why you don't shy
06:27away from it you just tell the truth of
06:29it yeah that's amazing truth you kind of
06:32are at a point in your career which I
06:34think most actors would die for which is
06:37you've gotten to a point where you're
06:40important enough you played Martin
06:42Luther King you've been in great movies
06:44that you can choose a bit what you're
06:48gonna do you don't have to take the work
06:50that's offered which is very few people
06:52achieve that level and you chose to make
06:55this movie which is you know the entire
06:57budget for the film was only 15 million
06:59dollars so certainly you could have done
07:01something that was worth more money and
07:03and watching the film the character that
07:05you play kind of made a very similar
07:07choice with his life where he could have
07:09you know been an engineering supervisor
07:11he was clearly a very talented guy when
07:14you researched him did you identify with
07:17this character more than other
07:19characters that you've played yeah
07:21absolutely I mean Robert K tenday who is
07:24a saint I mean you know one of the
07:27challenges in playing him was how to
07:30make him feel like a human being but
07:33great so incredible I mean as a human
07:37being and I hugely admire him and what
07:39he is done and is doing but for me I am
07:44I'm very very blessed to do what I do
07:46but I also really appreciate how
07:50impactful cinema is culturally and
07:55having been in films that I have seen
07:58impact culture you know educate people
08:02enlighten people bring people joy help
08:06them reevaluate or evaluate their lives
08:08I have basically set myself the remit
08:12that for me I have to use this tool to
08:17contextualize what it is to be black on
08:19planet earth and that is very complex
08:25you know in setting myself that remit
08:27what i mean by that is film culturally
08:31has I think marginalized what it is to
08:34be a person of color
08:35it has marginalized the female voice as
08:38well behind the camera in front of the
08:41camera so few female directors getting
08:44to operate on our honor scale of this
08:46which has to change and so few people of
08:49color and able to be the protagonists
08:51and so being afforded the opportunities
08:54that you quite rightly say I have been
08:56afforded I try to take every opportunity
08:58where I'm blessed with the opportunity
09:00to do a film to move the ball down the
09:03field as it pertains to what I deemed to
09:07be the African experience the
09:10african-american experience the black
09:13I want to champion the female experience
09:15in all of its complexities so so yes
09:18when this project came along it ticked
09:20all of my boxes in terms of what I want
09:23to contribute what I want my footprint
09:25to be as an artist in terms of the work
09:28I do being from Nigeria and then London
09:32you've played what many people consider
09:34the most important african-american and
09:36maybe ever but certainly in the last
09:39century how did you learn about African
09:43Americans well I had this incredible
09:45journey I did a series of films that
09:48really went into the American experience
09:52but more specifically the African
09:53American experience I did the film
09:55called Red Tails above in Tuskegee
09:57Airmen I did a film called the butler
10:01which which also looked at the African
10:04American experience also very unusual
10:06but that but either of those movies get
10:09made and it was a fight it was a real
10:11fight we didn't have a tender and again
10:13to there I'll tell you that
10:16you know I did a film called the help as
10:18well and a film called Lincoln all of
10:21which really you know cover the last
10:23hundred and fifty years of what it is to
10:25be black in America yes I did
10:34there so so but you know I couldn't have
10:37predicted that would happen to to to my
10:40career but I can absolutely track it
10:42with the presidency of Barack Obama you
10:45know I think those films got made
10:48because this country as it still is
10:50reeling from the fact that we've had an
10:53african-american president for eight
10:55years we're finding out quite a good one
11:00yes exactly and I think that these films
11:04got made to give us context as to how we
11:07got to this moment and so through doing
11:11those those movies I got this unexpected
11:14education unexpected love actually for
11:18african-american history
11:19african-americans because I'm British
11:21I'm Nigerian I wouldn't have identified
11:24as african-american but I now have of my
11:26four children two of them are Americans
11:28they were born here I just became a
11:30citizen three weeks gradually so in my
11:37house we call ourselves African
11:39Americans just to lump everything
11:43together nicely so yeah you know that
11:45journey I've been on is really helped me
11:48drill down and get a sense of what I
11:50want to do which is something that you
11:52you don't really get to know as an
11:53artist all the time in terms of the kind
11:55of films I want to make so one of the
11:57things in the movie that there were so
11:59many nice nuances and in terms of the
12:02clothing and that you know Sehwa hideous
12:06as much as I love robucket nd what's
12:09with the shirt those were his authentic
12:13shirts yeah there was a very bright
12:17their shirts loved him yes yeah that was
12:22really amazing was the snap no that
12:24actually from the team oh yeah yeah
12:26that's that's a very real thing
12:28everywhere you go you know and that's
12:30what's so great about getting to see
12:33different places different people to you
12:37know I guarantee that's gonna creep into
12:39schools that's gonna become something
12:42amount of times I've spent teaching
12:45people how to do that but yeah it's a
12:47it's a it's a fantastic thing that they
12:49do I learned so much you know they're
12:51definitely made you feel like you were
12:53there yeah like part of the team it's
12:55really amazing so one of your co-stars
12:58Lapita you know they they say there are
13:01there are actresses and then there are
13:02movie stars and she's clearly jumps
13:06right off the screen and it's a movie
13:07star and what does it like to act or
13:09have to be in a scene with such a
13:11presence that's that big it does that
13:13make it more difficult does that make it
13:14easier oh it's a complete joy especially
13:17when there's such an incredible human
13:19being I mean she really is one of the
13:22loveliest people I have met and she's
13:26just she's so talented she's so gracious
13:30but what blew me away about Lupita in
13:33this movie is that as you will see in
13:36some of those scenes with her is that we
13:39now have a woman on planet earth who can
13:45completely pass for a Ugandan corn
13:49seller in the slums of cartway she can
13:54pass for it you can you can have the
13:55camera go buying and real corn sell a
13:57real corn sell a movie stuff real cool
14:00teller real coins and buy it yeah is
14:03just incredible because I don't know
14:06that we've had the combination of that
14:09talent that beauty that amazing hue of
14:13her skin combined in a world renowned
14:18movie star and that is just amazing and
14:23she is one of the reason the movie gets
14:26made because when you don't have someone
14:29like that that gives a company like
14:32Disney the confidence to make the film
14:35because that you know at the end of the
14:36day you want people in these movies that
14:39draw a crowd and if you just if you
14:42haven't had the opportunity to nurture
14:43that talent to the point whereby she is
14:46as you say a movie star the truth of the
14:48matter is these films don't get made and
14:50so her existence to me is both a miracle
14:56source of warm inner fuzzy loveliness I
15:00said and she is just I mean that I don't
15:04know if you said I remember one day or
15:05when we were shooting and I saw her
15:08practicing her waddle and I did you see
15:11because you know because that's not how
15:13Lupita walked quite impressive
15:23yes so if you were her agent you know
15:26and and she can make a movie like this
15:28that's so important but she's so
15:31important as you pointed out in not just
15:35showing these kinds of films but really
15:36in diversifying all of Hollywood how
15:39many films like this would you have her
15:42make and then would you also want her to
15:45be in blockbusters just to show that
15:48greatness can come in that package or
15:51like how would you think about that if
15:53you are now you know running CA or
15:55William Morris or wherever it's it's a
15:58really good question because up until
16:01now what has tended to happen when a
16:05black woman in particular is afforded
16:09this kind of notoriety this kind of
16:11success winning an Oscar being in a hit
16:13film is it's really difficult
16:17Hollywood finds it very difficult to
16:19know what to do with them but but even
16:21beyond that it's just okay so what do we
16:24do with them now do we pair them with
16:27Brad Pitt do we have him with George
16:29Clooney do we you know the Jennifer
16:32Lawrence route right is not what is
16:35going to happen unfortunately because of
16:38this confusion as to okay she's got this
16:41amazing dark skin and the truth of the
16:49matter is again to talk about diversity
16:53if tender niganda doesn't exist if he
16:56isn't walking this project down the
16:58halls beyond 12 years a slave this is
17:03the first time we're seeing Lupita in
17:05the flesh since then
17:08and that bears out it's actually
17:10shocking it is and that would not be the
17:13case with Jennifer Lawrence winning the
17:16Oscar it's about four or five giant no
17:18exactly it's not gonna be the case for
17:20brie Larson who's just won the Oscar
17:22it's not gonna be the case for Amy Adams
17:24so you know what what I would say is
17:27that she's doing it absolutely right she
17:30went on to Broadway and got nominated
17:32for a Tony that's how you keep the
17:36narrative going because you have to the
17:39best weapon in my view against prejudice
17:42is excellence how my entrepreneurs hear
17:48that if you can constantly remain on the
17:52undeniable path of excellence you
17:55literally shame people into giving you
17:58your opportunities into making the
18:01opportunities that you create yourself
18:03and so I think that we are more and more
18:07waking up to that I know that she is
18:09woken up to that it's certainly
18:11something I try to do but it doesn't
18:13mean it's easy you know she is well on
18:16her way to continuing to be a game
18:18changer I think yeah no doubt and that
18:20was amazing yeah we just saw her in so
18:23we spoke about Disney a bunch so you
18:26know here's a the most successful
18:29company in the world in making films but
18:31known for having that great profitable
18:35success by making franchises that can
18:39merchandise mm-hmm and clearly hit this
18:42once that one that there's an easy
18:44sequel for have no idea what you're
18:45talking about I the doll is on its way
18:49do you have interchangeable robotic
18:54we've got this so now yes but so how how
18:59does Disney you know end up embracing a
19:02film like this and what does that mean
19:04do you think going forward
19:05look this hasn't happened before is the
19:07truth of the matter is it hasn't
19:09happened before and you know even when
19:12we sit there thinking of how to market
19:15who's gonna come and see the film you
19:16know what we tend to do in Hollywood is
19:18we think about comps what is the film
19:20like we just don't have comps so that's
19:26I mean in in a world of sequels and
19:29reimagined IP and all this kind of stuff
19:32to have something that you're literally
19:33going know that a film like this exists
19:37and it be made by the biggest media
19:39company in the world is truly incredible
19:42so you know how this happened I think
19:46even Disney is going thankfully they're
19:58very happy with it but honestly I'm
20:01sorry I just go back to tender niganda I
20:04mean you know he had great success with
20:07Cinderella that he was a big part of
20:09getting that film made saving mr. banks
20:11which he got me so again excellence
20:14excellence bred success which bred
20:16opportunity and that meant that we got
20:19to go and make this movie miron I add
20:21that the work that she's been doing
20:23positioned her in order to when this
20:26came along she was right there
20:27Lupita and 12 years a slave eroded their
20:30excuses to not make this film they were
20:33they were talking about this from just
20:34as I had done Salma so thankfully you
20:36know me as an addition to it we just
20:38literally through excellence and the
20:41pursuit of excellence it got to here so
20:43I only don't have a real answers for you
20:47as to how this happened all I can hope
20:50is that this becomes a model for what
20:54because I know we need it but you know I
20:57just pray that it attains the level of
21:00success that means that we continue
21:02there to a road not just Disney's but
21:04Warner Brothers Universal Sony
21:07paramount all of their excuses to not
21:10make movies like this thank you again
21:14and everybody maybe we can turn on the
21:16lights just so David can see everybody's
21:19smiling say it would be nice because we
21:22can't see you at all thank you thank you
21:29again for just a wonderful film and
21:31changing Hollywood and making all of us
21:34thank you thank you guys bless you thank
21:36you very much thank you thank you
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