00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael
00:03Copeland here on the road in London and
00:06that who you heard is from one of our
00:09special guests Martha Lane Fox who in
00:12the parlance is a crossbench Pierre the
00:14founder of lastminute.com you seem to be
00:17doing everything chair of the digital
00:19skills charity go on UK and you just
00:22launched dot everyone yes Martha welcome
00:25thank you also we have Russell Davies
00:27who is head of a digital strategy for
00:29the coop which is among the world's
00:31largest member owned coops you were the
00:35former head of strategy for the UK's
00:38government digital service you are a fan
00:41of the traditional English fry-up I am
00:45I'm the traditional English cafe more
00:47importantly and actually fan seems like
00:49I'm doing you disservice you're more
00:51like the Herodotus of the traditional
00:53English cafe I think you find you
00:54Herodotus Martha is a classical scholar
00:59I'm not what is one of the greatest
01:02historians of all of them the first
01:04historian of all time okay now if I am
01:07nothing and I'm sure he would have liked
01:09begging document eggs bacon chips and
01:12beans too I suppose but welcome to the
01:16pockets for joining us so Martha let's
01:19start and I don't want to start with
01:21this being a real bummer but you said
01:25recently that at least part of the tech
01:28industry you are finding very upsetting
01:32and depressing so I want to know what
01:34you mean by that well not all of it it
01:36would be churlish for me to say I
01:37founded the tech sector depressing and
01:39upsetting on every level because I
01:40having loved working in it and devote my
01:42life to it but the aspect that I feel
01:45most profoundly surprised by and baffled
01:49and yes frankly upset and depressed is
01:51the gender balance of the technology
01:52sector as you will know well it's pretty
01:56bad right there's a whole new
01:58establishment that's been created and I
02:00would argue it's a new establishment
02:01that has replicated the old
02:03establishment to a degree that those of
02:05us that were quite early into the
02:06dot-com boom and bust here in the UK are
02:10properly surprised by because it felt as
02:12though things might be different right
02:14I mean back when lastminute.com when you
02:16were starting that it sounded to me like
02:18things and even before that for that
02:20matter I mean the early days of
02:21computing there were many women
02:22absolutely absolutely there's an awesome
02:25woman here you may know her called
02:26Dame's Stefanie Shirley Stevie Shirley
02:28and she ran a programming company in the
02:3070s all women all working from home and
02:33all working on huge government contracts
02:35Polaris submarine black box for Concorde
02:37so something happened in the 80s and the
02:4090s that sort of absented women from the
02:44development of the technology and I
02:46think that's incredibly important and
02:47upsetting well and and certainly in
02:50Silicon Valley we it's not a different
02:52picture there at all and and people are
02:53trying to examine exactly how and why
02:55we've gotten to where we have but more
02:58importantly what can we do to move
03:00things forward and improve the situation
03:02as it stands well I'm a optimistic
03:05person and the great news is that here
03:07in the UK there is a lot happening it's
03:09just I think could do with some fuel a
03:11bit more coordination and probably a bit
03:13more funding as you said I'm launching
03:16dot everyone it's a public value
03:18organization creating organization and
03:20we are going to make the UK one of the
03:24best places to work as a woman in
03:26technology in the world as one of our
03:28first landmark projects and watch this
03:32space for how we plan to start idea
03:34because we could all learn from you guys
03:35if you actually pull it off and so I
03:37mean are there specifics that we can
03:40talk about or there's two areas we're
03:41gonna initially focus on and amongst
03:44some of the other things we're gonna do
03:44it don't everyone and the first thing is
03:47to help encourage women to start their
03:50own tech based organization either
03:53for-profit or not-for-profit and we're
03:56gonna do that by having some big
03:58matchmaking events where we get people
03:59who are already running things that
04:01might need more money into them or
04:03people that are already running things
04:04that might need new skills or people
04:06that are running things that are looking
04:07for women to come and work in them so
04:08we're going to try and put together
04:09people in an interesting in a different
04:11kind of way so that's the first thing
04:12I'm gonna do and the second thing we're
04:13going to do is we're going to work with
04:15some corporates to think about how we
04:18could encourage the currently 800,000
04:21unemployed women in this country to
04:23become part of the 600,000 jobs that we
04:26need to fill in the text
04:27so we're working with a couple of
04:29corporates who are interested in how we
04:30could give more specific mentoring
04:32training and help to some of those
04:34800,000 to fill those tech jobs so join
04:37up the pieces in a new and interesting
04:38way right Russell you haven't been
04:41involved both in terms of government and
04:42also you know at the köppen kind of
04:44bringing technology to a larger groups
04:46of people I mean in terms of what Martha
04:48was just describing are there programs
04:50and/or approaches it that you have seen
04:53that our bringing tech and the sort of
04:56goodness detect to a wider population of
04:58folks yes I mean I don't think it's
05:01specifically necessarily about what
05:04Martha is talking about and women in
05:06tech but there is I think one of the
05:08contributions that you get from outside
05:11Silicon Valley basically is we don't
05:13have the same necessarily the same blind
05:15spots that's that's how we'll compete
05:17with Silicon Valley Brown and one of
05:19them is about knowing that there's a
05:23role for technology in the public sector
05:25and one of them is also knowing that
05:28tech not you know a more diverse vision
05:31of technology will out-compete a white
05:34male rich version of technology let's
05:37just back up for a second here because I
05:39think it's always interesting when you
05:40get outside of our kind of tunnel vision
05:41of Silicon Valley to other places
05:44whether it's New York or Boston or you
05:46know anywhere in the United States but
05:47especially outside the u.s. completely
05:49you mentioned the blind spots what we
05:50have in Silicon Valley from the outside
05:52what would you describe those as
05:54obsession with VC funding with you there
06:03yeah an a a kind of super serving of a
06:08San Francisco user basically you know
06:11most markets most you know every app you
06:15see you go that would be really useful
06:16in San Francisco right and and then you
06:21know using market power and all kinds of
06:23things to try and force those into other
06:25places and sometimes they're right and
06:27sometimes they're not
06:27and sometimes they kind of fit sometimes
06:29they don't so there's that kind of thing
06:32and plus a kind of a and this is not new
06:36to the current generation of
06:38technologists but an assumption that
06:40regulation government wider society can
06:45basically I worked with Microsoft for a
06:49few years before they got sued by the
06:50DOJ right and they sued for antitrust
06:57yes yes and they just kind of had
07:01assumed up to that point that they could
07:02just ignore that and I mean arguably I
07:06think it derailed them for years
07:07possibly derailed them until now to some
07:10extent and you know that was just stupid
07:16they could have thought about that right
07:18you know that was just a blind spot on
07:20their behalf the thing that I find kind
07:22of interesting is the total kind of
07:24techno you tape envision that the tech
07:26platforms will sort out all the biggest
07:28challenges that we face and I'm not
07:29convinced by that you know arguably
07:31autonomous cars they are going to
07:33organize some bit of a problem that we
07:36have with road deaths organizing of
07:37smart cities but would be to be debated
07:40whether or not that's one of the top
07:41five or six issues that we face as
07:42humankind and I like thinking about how
07:45you could give the tools to more people
07:47to be able to sort out problems and I
07:48actually also think government is a
07:49force for good too generally and I don't
07:51think we should be trying to have a
07:53competition between whether the tech
07:55companies or government can sort things
07:56out we should be in bold earning
07:58countries to have more clear and
08:01exciting visions around what a
08:03combination of those things can do
08:05together and I think one of the aspects
08:07that we may be able to create real
08:10competitive advantage as in wider
08:12competitive advantage not just
08:14commercial competitive advantage for the
08:16UK is by joining all the pieces up you
08:18know you've had South Korea they're a
08:20huge and incredible job on
08:21infrastructure you've had Estonia do a
08:23huge an incredible job on government
08:25services online you've had Singapore
08:27they're an amazing job in smart cities
08:28you've had Canada actually do some
08:30interesting stuff in bits and pieces but
08:31I'm not sure there's a country that's
08:33actually had a proper digital vision and
08:36I'm excited about the possibility for
08:38the UK to do that because we're small we
08:40need to scale up our population really
08:42pretty fast we're in an interesting
08:44geographical location and I think that
08:46in order to build on what Russell said
08:47we have an opportunity here to be more
08:50wide-ranging in how we see all this
08:54this is something that you mentioned
08:55earlier but to put all those pieces
08:58together in some sense the technology is
09:00and and so what is the hard part and how
09:03did how do you then you know Martha I
09:05want you to describe this too how do you
09:07put that together I mean and what what
09:10are really the things I need to happen
09:11culturally and behaviorally to make it
09:13work well I think it's a dual thing
09:15right so I think you have to have some
09:17symbolic top-down leadership and that
09:19can come from a variety of sources I
09:21think it can come from political figures
09:23clearly it can come from the corporate
09:25sector as well but I also think some
09:27things need to happen that a robust and
09:30helpful on the ground as well and that's
09:32kind of what I want everyone to try and
09:34do and help with so we're doing two
09:35levels of things just to give an example
09:37we are creating a what I'm calling a
09:40virtual campus which we're going to be a
09:42showcase of the best stuff that's
09:44happening that's not just commercial
09:45technology so we're gonna wrap together
09:47all the exciting new Institute's that
09:48are being created we've got the turing
09:49institute building computer science
09:51capability we've got the open data
09:52Institute building open data capacity
09:54have got the go on UK organization I
09:56started about digital skills but we
09:58don't often talk about them as a story
09:59for the UK so all the chairs and CEOs
10:02are going to come together to create bit
10:03more of a story for the UK which I think
10:04will help in that kind of ambition and
10:06boldness and vision and then I think
10:08there are a whole plethora of things
10:09that are happening on the ground that
10:11could be small projects I'm about to go
10:13to Croydon after this which is a borough
10:15of London where we're launching a
10:16project to try and help the whole of
10:18Croydon use technology in a really deep
10:19way and we've got really interesting
10:21combinations of people coming together
10:22from cafes to football stadia to the
10:25local council there's lots happening
10:27again I'm just think it needs sometimes
10:29to be brought together in a more
10:31coherent vision and mission and so I
10:33think there are now more organizations
10:35trying to do that than ever before and
10:36I'm confident we can give them fewer
10:38than a voice and perhaps the court could
10:39be one of those voices yeah well I hope
10:42and I think there's also a I mean if if
10:45digitally is gonna get widely adopted
10:48and transform the economy in the UK and
10:50that kind of thing large organisations
10:52are going to have to get it right you
10:55know right they're not all going to be
10:57replaced by an app and that means they
11:00have to learn how to do it themselves I
11:02think for the most part they used to be
11:03a there was an assumption from large
11:05organisations firstly that they could
11:07or it and then be buy it off someone
11:10else and then found a kind of lab or
11:13maybe partnered with a VC firm or you
11:17know do that kind of thing and now
11:18they're getting to the point where you
11:20go actually what we have to do is employ
11:22hundreds of people who know how the
11:25internet works who know how to build
11:26things we need developers we know you
11:28know we need to bring those into our
11:29organization and recognize that that
11:32will fundamentally change the way we
11:34I mean what's interesting is that most
11:37of the time these kind of innovation
11:38centers however you want to describe
11:40them they don't work right by what you
11:44mentioned Martha is this sort of bottoms
11:45up and top-down approach and III do
11:47think that we are in a different phase
11:49now where everyone's lives
11:51you know personally have been
11:53transformed by technology million adults
11:58in the UK a relatively small country who
12:00cannot do four things online that we
12:03know they're kind of most basic benefits
12:04to being on the Internet and that that's
12:06nearly twenty percent of the adult
12:07population but do they all have
12:09smartphones and their progress through
12:10no they're not using the Internet
12:11they're just either not able to because
12:13they're not connected they can't afford
12:15to there's no way they could afford a
12:16smartphone and ironically and you know
12:18this is why what gressil did in GDS
12:20government digital service was so
12:22important because they're also the
12:23heaviest users of government services
12:24you can cording that double track where
12:26government isn't able to make the next
12:27leap because we've got this pocket of
12:29people and they're not really even a
12:30pocket it's like a huge big bloody rip
12:32you still are completely dislocated so
12:34sorry something I really feel like
12:36that's one of the key parts of if we're
12:38gonna make a proper leap forward we've
12:41got to think about a whole network of
12:43inclusion - including everybody and just
12:45as you you you you know you can take
12:47inspiration from from other bits the
12:49world if we can work out how to serve
12:51those people well digitally that will
12:54transform how we serve everyone yeah
12:57because it's relatively easy to build a
13:00food delivery app for someone who lives
13:02very close to you and has got lots of
13:04money you know it's that kind of it
13:07that's part I think of what we'll take
13:09take the next leap is how to serve
13:11people who aren't attuned necessarily to
13:13the digital kind of revolution well so
13:16this gets me to one of the other topics
13:17I wanted to cover you know and I think
13:19of England in the UK
13:20I think of like you know this great
13:22history of manufacturing which like the
13:24United States I I assume I think has
13:27gone elsewhere and so outside of London
13:30there must be there are large
13:32communities of people maybe more --this
13:33is part of what you're describing who
13:35it's hard to get work the work that's
13:38available is maybe not kind of the the
13:40sort that can support a family on a kind
13:42of long term basis but is is technology
13:46being put to work in different ways and
13:48digital tools in those communities that
13:52that we can look to to sort of use as an
13:54example that maybe we can follow there
13:56are lots of examples of you know small
14:00probably quite scalable if they had a
14:02bit more fuel and funding whether there
14:05but you know based initiatives or
14:08whether they're you know more the tools
14:13that are helping the frontline services
14:15be delivered better so a bit more kind
14:16of hidden b2b kind of services you know
14:18for an example I saw a really smart
14:21little app the other day that helps
14:23homeless people you know strangely
14:25actually quite a lot of homeless people
14:26are using text message in smartphones
14:28you're constituent group - exactly -
14:30Russell's point if you can design for
14:32them and their experience of sleeping
14:33rough can be profoundly better because
14:35they can find somewhere where somebody
14:37might say this is a heated room that you
14:39can sleep in tonight as opposed to just
14:40being freezing on the street so there
14:42are lots of small examples and there are
14:43some bigger more community-wide examples
14:45so you know I think everything's
14:47happening actually I think that's that's
14:49the exciting thing about this country is
14:50a lots happening there has been a huge
14:52in certainly in the last 20 let alone 15
14:56years that I've been working in this
14:57sector the shift from you work in what
15:00to everybody wanting to be part of this
15:02is is phenomenal so that we have that to
15:04our advantage we've just got to keep
15:06betting on the right bits of it and this
15:07I think one of the things that's
15:08starting to happen now is well is
15:10something like I mean we we have still
15:12got a manufacturing industry which and
15:14it's bigger than everyone always thinks
15:16but what it hasn't done particularly
15:19well is embrace how digital technologies
15:22can make them better manufacturers that
15:24make them better at marketing their
15:26wares all that kind of thing and but
15:28also how much it can transform their
15:30business so they can continue to make
15:32their widget but they can make it better
15:34and quicker'n and all that kind of stuff
15:36partly because I think one of the things
15:38the social media revolution did is full
15:41large organizations into thinking that
15:43they understood digital and yeah because
15:47because they spent five years working
15:48out how to use Twitter and then thought
15:50they've done it right kind of like okay
15:52we've done digital now what they hadn't
15:54reckoned with is how it's going to
15:56transform the everything else they do
15:58and we're in that stage in the UK you
16:00know we've we're pretty Swift in in sort
16:04of media revolution in those those
16:06things digital stuff yeah we you know
16:10all that kind of almost the low-hanging
16:11fruit of what digital will do to the to
16:14the economy has happened and we're now
16:16into the next stage of how will it
16:17affect manufacturing how will it affect
16:19you know the next layer of things and
16:22one of the things I think is an
16:23opportunity for for things like coops is
16:26car sharing makes massive amount of
16:29sense in a small rural community where
16:32they have terrible public transport
16:34right but uber aren't going there
16:36tomorrow you know so but actually if you
16:38can build a platter you know cooperative
16:41platform for car sharing in small rural
16:43communities that's kind of an
16:45interesting thing to do yeah or or a
16:48food delivery or food preparation or I
16:51mean I'm sure you do all these things at
16:53the coop but yeah I think that the this
16:55large-scale or at least larger scale
16:58buying power and just like let's switch
17:02a or flip a switch and decide to do it
17:04is a really interesting proposition yeah
17:09application that tend to sort of seamen
17:12feel like they've been developed by
17:13people San Francisco for San Franciscans
17:16what's a well what's an example of that
17:18and then what's a counter example maybe
17:20of how you're seeing technology
17:22developed differently here and perhaps
17:24for the use cases that are more specific
17:26to to being in England or in Europe well
17:29one of the things I mean it's still very
17:31early days I think a lot of the most
17:34interesting thinking and not yet turned
17:37into commercial propositions around
17:39Internet of Things stuff is happening in
17:42the UK and in Europe or happening
17:45actually by Brits in
17:48San Francisco right but but I think it's
17:52because partly because we had a kind of
17:54weird and different kombu here that
17:58people got spat out and started thinking
18:00about the next thing for maybe a couple
18:02of years before they did in the u.s.
18:05also I think it's down to things like
18:08weirdly very specific things like the
18:12interaction design course at the RCA
18:14we're kind of every designer you've
18:17heard of went to and they start you know
18:19they had tutors who started them
18:21thinking about interaction for something
18:23other than a I don't know you know kind
18:26of flat square so how is that starting
18:28to manifest itself either you know in in
18:30I guess models and or or actual products
18:35but what are you starting to see it's at
18:37the moment I it's still at the thinking
18:38and prototypes kind of stuff I think but
18:41it's it's it's and it's within large
18:44organizations as well you know your
18:47apples and you Google's that there's
18:48designers there who are kind of going
18:50again thinking about particularly with
18:52Internet of Things devices how does a
18:56family control the device rather than a
18:58single individual for instance you know
19:00the the the problem with so much of that
19:03stuff designed for the home is it
19:05assumes a kind of model of a single
19:07owner ran a master you know the master
19:09head of household or mistress but it
19:14broadly assumes a master I know so
19:16friend of mine Tom Coates always talks
19:19about how he has got a house you know
19:21that's kind of a prototype for Internet
19:23of Things devices and at least three of
19:26his friends who no longer you know you
19:28don't live there can control his lights
19:30and it's kind of how do you you know
19:34because they visited once so from across
19:38the world they can turn his lights on
19:39and off right tom coats for those of you
19:41don't know he was a yahoo for a long
19:42time and sort of ran their skunk works
19:45lab and you know he's got a blog called
19:48plastic bag plastic bags updated that
19:52for about but he's doing and him and
19:56another friend of ours who's also from
19:58London or doing a really interesting
20:01startup called thing turn which is the
20:04thing they're thinking about is not the
20:06devices but how do you control multiple
20:08connected devices in your home when that
20:11you need multiple layers of permission
20:13and ownership and that and those are
20:16going to be the big problems not you
20:18know not how does one person turn the
20:19temperature up or not but how does
20:21people in a house consensually agree
20:24what the right temperature yeah and do
20:26that in a way that you don't have to be
20:27a network administrator to actually just
20:29turn on the lights there is a mazing
20:32tool place all recently about the
20:33combative MIT where you're gonna be
20:35followed around by your own temperature
20:37I would open data you know the UK
20:41arguably has been a world leader in open
20:43data the government did a big push about
20:46five years ago and a lot of stuff got
20:47freed up it needs that push needs to
20:49continue its sort of patchy because now
20:51sort of some of things were getting a
20:53bit buried and departments are being a
20:55bit more difficult about it but the open
20:57data Institute founded by Tim
20:58berners-lee and Nigel Shadbolt has
21:00really pushed this agenda hard I'm
21:02biased I should say I'm on the board so
21:04I feel like I should bridge I said that
21:07interesting case people think I'm being
21:09overly unobjective but I think they are
21:12agreed that it is agreed that that's
21:14been a hugely important device for
21:17creating startups and for creating a new
21:20wave of public facing organizations in
21:23the sense that we can all access this
21:25massive amount of data and then
21:26therefore buildings you know they've got
21:29a space in East London and they've got a
21:30bunch of companies there or you know
21:32combination and not profits and
21:34companies and they use that you know
21:37there are classic Khan speaks are a
21:39classic accelerator models they've got a
21:40group of people they get lots of support
21:42and help they might come in with a small
21:43idea might come on with a big idea
21:44there's a great one there called open
21:46corporates they take all of the open
21:48data that corporate sector puts out
21:50there about itself and puts it together
21:51to show companies that are either being
21:53really untransparent about things or
21:55ones that are being really great about
21:56things it's another great company called
21:57mastered and see they've done a whole
21:58lot of stuff with big data in health so
22:01I would say open data is another area
22:02where I think the UK and all Europe
22:04could be continue to be well leader you
22:07know is that open data the United States
22:09is is I think probably far behind in
22:12terms of that in the healthcare industry
22:15reasons of it being privatized mostly
22:16but are there I'll be the same here for
22:19reasons of it being public okay I was
22:21wondering if there's really interesting
22:22I think the rhetoric here and I've been
22:25doing a little bit of work in health
22:26through dot everyone recently and the
22:28things that I've heard from lots of
22:29different people have engaged with this
22:31but you'll never get anything wrong
22:32because we haven't completely screwed up
22:34bureaucratic health service not that
22:36they want it to be privatized not at all
22:37but just that their ways into it and the
22:39roots are hard right so it's interesting
22:40that you say the same whether it comes
22:42from the other angle right because
22:44they're silos of information in unit and
22:45in health especially if you can kind of
22:47look across massive amounts of datas
22:49outcomes for Health forget you know
22:51payment et cetera which is another area
22:52but just making people healthier but
22:54again that that should be a thing
22:56hopefully with the with the you know
22:58with the NHS with the with a massive
23:01health care system where you ought to be
23:03able to create a way where you can
23:05aggregate data well and anonymously in
23:08order that that people can do useful
23:10research on it part the reason that
23:12hasn't happened is is simply that the
23:14people at the top of all these
23:15organizations don't know how to do it
23:18right there they they buy and sometimes
23:22repeat the rhetoric of big data etc but
23:26they don't have actual you know data
23:29scientists inside their organization who
23:31know how to take aggregate data and make
23:34it usable without giving everyone
23:35secrets away and that partly will just
23:39be a generational shift but if we
23:42accelerate that you know we'll get a
23:44lead and and UK medicine and science and
23:48research will benefit from that but I
23:50think we have a very very very serious
23:52skills challenge you know we that's why
23:54I'm energized by the fact we're a small
23:56island I looked up the population of
23:58greater Tokyo recently it's 55 million
24:00people and we're just over 60 million or
24:02whatever we are would like basically
24:03we're a huge Asian city and yet we've
24:05got a bit of a bigger landmass we must
24:06be able to make the ambition that will
24:09be the most highly skilled otherwise I
24:10fear for our economy in the future not
24:12like five years but 25 years we've got
24:14profound gaps in data scientists
24:16profound gaps in all levels of the the
24:18skills chain so that's why I really
24:21think it's important we keep banging on
24:22about this stuff and we and we explore a
24:24lot of our best people to the US
24:26caught up by the big platforms so Martha
24:33your your sort of calling for a new army
24:35of warriors me and those warriors that
24:38you're asking for you want to be women
24:41or at least a majority of them I just
24:43think that's a huge enormous opportunity
24:45I think that if we could be a bit more
24:46imaginative as I said if we could think
24:47about how can we get even a portion of
24:49those 800,000 women who are currently
24:51unemployed into some of those tech jobs
24:53that are currently unfilled we know that
24:55it takes them anywhere between six weeks
24:56and 18 months to get to be a relatively
24:59good either software engineer or
25:02architect or sizzles whatever it's not
25:05out of the wit of a woman to imagine
25:08that out of that eight hundred thousand
25:09could be more women and into that army
25:11and the reason I just used a bit of a
25:13device was because as I'm sure you know
25:153,000 BC they've discovered lots of
25:17nomadic tribes across the plains of
25:19between Mongolia and through to the
25:21cooks and all around the top of northern
25:23Europe and they thought for ages that
25:25all these people that bones that they
25:27dug up women but then they realized
25:28through new bone density technology that
25:31they were women so the women had been
25:32the ones firing weapons and with the
25:34tools and if you were to think what the
25:35tools of the future they would be
25:37digital so come on they assumed they
25:39were men that was the mistake they made
25:41because they were worried because they
25:42would well baby exactly they were buried
25:44with tools and weapons and they thought
25:46they must be here yeah you actually
25:48mocked up a photographic up picture
25:55because despite being a bit digital I'm
25:57not very good was just describing it was
26:01a skull two is two graves they were
26:03great from 3,000 BC which was the grave
26:05they found that they thought were men
26:06they actually were women buried with
26:07tools and with small bows and arrows for
26:10their smaller frames right and I mocked
26:12up let's say what would Grave look like
26:14from 200 and what was it two thousand
26:17two hundred and it was beer small bones
26:19of the night a USB port so that would be
26:21the digital yes there's B sticks that I
26:24would be the digital grave the future
26:25although I mean I think that's good but
26:27I think everything is gonna be in the
26:28clouds I know yeah I don't know how you
26:34that's the biggest challenge for
26:36technology industry of the next five
26:37uses how do you visualize the cloud
26:39makes your PowerPoint really bad
26:42you mentioned Universal what are some of
26:43your bugaboos here you know what what
26:46can you not stand people saying or
26:49hearing about you know unicorn is one
26:50maybe big data is another one these
26:53things that people say and somehow it
26:56loses their meaning just so we can be
26:57careful or maybe there's different ones
26:59here well you know I think it's more to
27:01me about you know we started up talking
27:04about what come how can we manage the
27:06blind spots to use Russell's phrase and
27:07I think I feel just sort of upset when I
27:10think that we're replicating too much of
27:12other people's technology systems I get
27:15a bit of a bugbear about the word
27:16ecosystem I'm not really sure what that
27:18means I think we've ripped that from the
27:19west coast probably actually just from
27:21San Francisco and that might be the only
27:22possible weaker system in the world who
27:23knows I think we should be creating some
27:25new ideas and new things so I don't like
27:27unicorns I found an absolutely brilliant
27:29poem by the British writer Angela Carter
27:32the old day called unicorn she wrote in
27:331965 it's really seedy and absolutely
27:36brilliant for any time I hear the word
27:38unicorn I'm gonna give this poem to the
27:40tech gazillionaire sitting in front of
27:42me and just say stop it
27:43I you know for me it's the fact that we
27:46are still monumentally bedazzled by
27:48valuation and I just find that upsetting
27:51because valuation does not equal impact
27:53it doesn't even equal it might equal
27:55maybe some commercial impact although
27:57that's arguable but it certainly doesn't
27:58necessarily not necessarily equal social
28:00impact some pretend right right so I
28:02just think come on come on we've got to
28:04find some different measures because
28:05that's just really boring and again it's
28:10it's it's sort of diversity you know all
28:13the way up and down the stack it's it's
28:15kind of its fractal it's it's it's not
28:18just the diversity of people you employ
28:19but the diversity of models yes and at
28:22the moment there's a kind of I mean
28:24maybe you don't get that impression but
28:26I think Martha and I are both really
28:29excited by technology and I definitely
28:32believe that software will lead the
28:34world it's just it won't necessarily
28:35crap out kind of rapidly free market
28:39kind of Silicon Valley cronyism you know
28:43there will be other models that will
28:45from networks and software and those
28:48kinds of things and as Martha says I
28:51think in the UK we have been to be
28:53dazzled by the model of start-up VC
28:56valuation that kind of thing there are
28:59other ways of transforming the world
29:01with technology and some of them I in
29:05order for the UK and for Europe and for
29:08everywhere that's not the u.s. to be
29:10good at them they have to investigate
29:11some of those other models we can't just
29:13replicate the effect of you know decades
29:15of Defense funding and Stanford right
29:18right and we can't just we must provide
29:20a as be dazzling a future that means
29:23that when Google comes and says I'm
29:25gonna give you X billion for your very
29:27small startup based in East London
29:29people say actually no what I'm gonna
29:30try this one over here and that you know
29:32and that's a really odd thing to do and
29:34said she got off of one of those
29:36checkbooks and took it so it was from
29:38the oils from the US sort of but I you
29:41know I think that this is complicated
29:42stuff but we haven't really Russell's
29:44point presented an alternative worldview
29:46with compulsion right an eternity
29:48worldview and also I guess the model for
29:51success right yeah I mean there's
29:54certainly success stories you know
29:55throughout the UK in Europe but
29:57sometimes I was get overshadowed I think
29:59like you say by the googles and
30:00Facebooks and you know you name it it's
30:02hard to get a you know in in classic VC
30:04tones it's hard to get a big exit in UK
30:07or in Europe you know and the fact that
30:08there have been as many as they have
30:10with the reduced amount of money that
30:12is testament that there are people here
30:14know what they're doing but also that
30:17there should be other ways to succeed
30:18right both financially and in social
30:21impact and that kind of thing I'm just
30:23just positing all the possibilities is
30:25it is a start you know let me do a very
30:28quick I'm gonna run through a couple of
30:30themes and we've covered some of them
30:31actually and just get your quick
30:32responses the gig economy you know this
30:35is driving cars delivering food other
30:39things how is the gig economy
30:42manifesting itself here in the UK if it
30:44is it is I would say but it is doing in
30:47very very small pockets so central
30:49London big dick and I live in central
30:51London and I'm lucky I'm rich so big
30:53tick for me but to Russell's point if
30:55you're living anywhere that doesn't have
30:56broadband or which is quite a lot of
30:58I think throws down I know but again the
31:02principles and some of the models in
31:03there absolutely can transform all sorts
31:06of communities and provide work in lots
31:08of interesting ways it's just right now
31:10they're they're not geared for that kind
31:13of world right they need to be adjusted
31:15for places other than central London and
31:17the radio a lot recently because
31:19Chancellor George Wilson has announced
31:21this infrastructure commission good idea
31:23long term thinking outside governments
31:25are independent group of people who will
31:26think what do we need in twenty thirty
31:28is there a mention of digital there is
31:29not yeah I rest my case
31:31drones do you guys did you arrived here
31:34by drone I mean they're obviously
31:42amazing the project that you see with
31:44drones are dropping food into places
31:45that would never normally have it in the
31:46middle of South Sudan or wherever you
31:48know the extraordinary things that they
31:50can do they don't particularly float my
31:54weird mixed metaphor yeah it is they
31:57would care about yes I've said it's just
32:01a language problem the fact that the
32:02killer killer robots from space have the
32:05same word as the as the cute gadgets
32:07that you can play with and the potential
32:10future delivery things is just a problem
32:13if someone can sort out the language so
32:15the rails all talking about that it's a
32:16game we're sending a drone to your home
32:19when you're like me is it is a dinner or
32:22is it yeah the end well the truth is is
32:24both right because GCHQ and amazon oral
32:26working together in that little drone so
32:28yeah yeah MOOCs online education I'm
32:31well I'm Chancellor of the Open
32:32University which is as you may know one
32:34of the largest universities in the world
32:36and was started on the premise that
32:37anyone can learn from any background
32:39anywhere always with a tutorial and a
32:41person at the other end of her an email
32:43a phone call an electronic something now
32:45so they're really interesting and what
32:49the Open University would say is we want
32:51to be playing around in MOOCs we started
32:52something called future learn but the
32:54key thing here is converting people to
32:56make sure that they take that next step
32:58in education I mean some people might
33:00not want to in they're an amazing
33:01resource but as you know
33:02I think that it's working out what that
33:06kind of chain of activity is so that the
33:08individual gets the learning experience
33:10that they really want the difficulty
33:12that at least in the United States and I
33:15guess plenty of them all over the world
33:16have found is that like people sign up
33:17but they never completely futurelearn
33:22actually I think they have that kind of
33:24second or third mover advantage thing or
33:26they knew that was a problem when they
33:27started yeah and I've got much better
33:30conversion rate but yes I mean that but
33:33that's one of those solvable problems
33:35that that's how you know digital lets
33:38you iterate I think that will get solved
33:40the bigger question is kind of what role
33:43does it play within a larger education
33:45kind of story it's not going to replace
33:47every form of Education so how does it
33:50fit right feels like wearables I noticed
33:53Russell you're wearing the Apple watch
33:54yes yes I have normally I've got my
34:01couvert on do you know about be covert
34:03no so it's beautiful jewelry that kind
34:07of you can set up to do stuff so I have
34:09a bracelet and you can set it up just to
34:11buzz you if you get a text or a message
34:13or whatever or email from a particular
34:15set of individuals so I might have
34:17Russell on red alert so we're just
34:19buzzed discreetly I don't have it on
34:21today so that was a very long answer to
34:22your question I bought every small watch
34:26for the last 25 years I have to say and
34:28that I watch is the first one that
34:31almost works you know so I'm kind of
34:33very excited about the next version one
34:38of my obsessions and I again I think
34:39it's one of the things that hopefully
34:41outside the u.s. we might get to think
34:43about is is how you interact with the
34:46network and with computers in a way
34:48other than just touching a shiny screen
34:50you know and and wearables and talking
34:53and those kinds of things feel like
34:56interest namely remember having a long
34:58discussion about 15 years ago I would
35:00really love a microchip in my wrist that
35:02just did all a lot of stuff I have a
35:04very bad car accident and I love
35:05painkillers I've done management various
35:07different bits and pieces and I'm really
35:08looking forward and I'm sure they'll
35:09crack it to either something internally
35:12in me or a wearable that would mean I
35:14didn't have to think about the drug
35:15they would be able to start telling me
35:16about the drugs opening this is coming
35:19for sure right it's happening mmm this
35:21is an unfair quick answer question about
35:23privacy well we don't like it the
35:29biggest issue of the next 10 years
35:30Kelley easily because how you gonna if
35:33you don't trust the organization that
35:35you're being asked to interact with
35:37eventually you're gonna stop and there's
35:39going to be huge issues and data
35:42breaches and interesting there's another
35:45column this weekend a funny writer
35:47called Giles Coren who was writing
35:49enough very brief comment basically say
35:52get over yourself no one cares they're
35:53not looking at you and he was being
35:55provocative clearly buts regardless of
35:58kind of even interaction with
35:59organizations I think we will really
36:00really look back and say hold on a
36:03something has profoundly shifted if we
36:05are accepting that there needs to be a
36:08blanket surveillance of us all which is
36:10what we are going through Parliament
36:12right now in the legislative process so
36:14I don't know if it's the defining moment
36:17for the next five years but it feels
36:19pretty important I know that there's
36:20CCTV cameras all around we have more
36:23than any other country on the road I
36:25mean behaviorally are you know there's
36:27guys with much worse criminals but is
36:31there a different sense of privacy here
36:32in London or in you know in London let's
36:34just say than other places well I'm
36:37surprised because I always thought that
36:38we actually pretty private people's yeah
36:40and I think that place you know classic
36:43English caricature of what I imagine is
36:45kind of reserved and sort of
36:46hierarchical and all of those things
36:48which is why you sometimes find the
36:49extreme left and the extreme right
36:50uniting on these issues as you do with
36:52many things so you know but I think it's
36:55a universal human truth so we're on
36:57there and we also don't have the same
36:59kind of constitutional you know like
37:03written down constitutional defenses
37:05against breaches of privacy
37:07you really kind of have centuries of
37:09habit and tradition and somewhat
37:11codified into law but but and again with
37:14one of the reasons we've surrendered so
37:16much privacy is we had a generation of
37:19village legislators who didn't
37:20understand what they were agreeing to
37:22basically why do we get something to do
37:23with the Queen and her knickers or
37:25something that people really care like
37:27okay that's too far yeah dr. who do you
37:32mm-hmm I know this that's fine whatever
37:35I didn't mean I don't know I thought it
37:36was gonna be a woman the new Star Wars I
37:39have tried to avoid seeing anything so I
37:41can be excited so I'm excited well it
37:45was a big deal in my family my brother
37:47and I were completely obsessed my
37:49brother particularly and his now two
37:50little boys are also really obsessed and
37:52they say very casually things like you
37:54know the you know one two three were
37:56never very good were they four five six
37:57they were the really good one I think
37:58that's interesting that's come through
37:59someone else thank you I wonder what
38:02their musical tastes are - well let me
38:04ask you this then this will be my final
38:06question so given Silicon Valley's
38:11influence and given kind of how you see
38:13development in tech happening here you
38:16know if you could ask for another
38:19version of technology or another app or
38:23something that would help what would you
38:25like people to get out there and start
38:27making politicians answer but I don't
38:32care what they make as long as they make
38:33it in a different spirit so I would like
38:36the values of it being for everyone
38:39being diverse including women in the
38:42design process in a completely different
38:43way not necessarily thinking it's going
38:45to be an effing unicorn just starting
38:48from a different point I would just
38:50agree with Martha to do so and when will
38:56we stop being depressed and disappointed
38:59do you think I look depressed and upset
39:01no you don't I like I like whipping them
39:05up a bit and I think you know I'm lucky
39:07I've got a bit of a voice and sometimes
39:09I can take a position which means then
39:10it might just in some small way
39:12encourage somebody else have a
39:13conversation at one or whatever whatever
39:14whatever I'm not really depressed I
39:16think we've got a massive opportunity
39:17but I think it won't just happen we have
39:19to grab it and change it that that to me
39:21that's the really exciting thing is that
39:22I I think given those blind spots that
39:25we've talked about but also given the
39:27monumental stuff that Silicon Valley and
39:29the u.s. has achieved if you kind of go
39:31okay they've achieved that with the
39:32handicap of those blind spots right what
39:35could we do if we overcame those what
39:37could we do if we got the other 50% of
39:39the planet on board you
39:40walk the that's that's the exciting bit
39:42and parochially that's the opportunity
39:45in the UK is to is to think a bit
39:47differently about this kind of stuff and
39:49what's the risk if you don't fast you're
39:51on there I mean there's a there's a flip
39:53side right and then do do I mean you
39:54start to see these gaps widening I think
39:56or or do you I completely absolutely
39:58think you know and I totally and
40:00completely reject the notion that
40:01somehow technology will be so easy it'll
40:03just be ever I don't agree I think I
40:05could easily imagine how in 20 years
40:06time we could have a profoundly
40:08disadvantaged and dislocated and
40:10completely without you know in today's
40:12absent from in their lives even in a
40:15hyper-connected super smart city so
40:17that's one thing and secondarily I think
40:19we won't have people to do the jobs I
40:21don't think we will have an economy
40:23because I think unless we put real
40:25attention into both filling the gaps
40:27that we have right now in the digital
40:29sector but also enabling the Russells
40:31point as big organizations to be able to
40:33shift to enable us to keep that value
40:37and I don't mean that just us locally
40:39here in the UK but just keep the value
40:40in this society then we're gonna be in a
40:43right old pickle that's a proper British
40:45phrase to end it with not a right old
40:52pickle and I somehow with you to onboard
40:55Martha Lane Fox thank you so much and
40:58Russell Davies thank you thank you
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