00:00hi and welcome to the a 16z podcast in
00:02this episode Dick Costolo former CEO of
00:05Twitter and a 16 seed general partner
00:07Peter Levine talk about all things
00:09leadership how to do what you love why a
00:11background and comedy improv might be
00:13more useful than you think and the
00:15importance of resilience the
00:17conversation was recorded as part of the
00:19breakline tech program for military
00:20veterans hosted at Andreessen Horowitz
00:23last time we met you were still CEO at
00:26Twitter and we haven't met since so what
00:30have you been up to and what was the
00:32departure like when I told the company I
00:35was leaving and one of the employees
00:37asked me what I was gonna do next I was
00:38like first thing women do is sleep until
00:4010:00 a.m. so I didn't do anything for
00:41six months except travel around I went
00:43to Cuba went Africa sort of all over the
00:46place and there was a strange background
00:48in comedy and I'd always wanted to go
00:50into comedy so I contacted the HBO folks
00:54who are doing the TV show Silicon Valley
00:56and said hey I want to come work on
00:57Silicon Valley and the CEO of HBO
01:00Richard pepper said well we need a like
01:02technical consultant but like we can't
01:04like pay you to do it I said I'll just
01:07do it for free he was like oh okay great
01:09that's works that works rough anyway so
01:13I went and worked on season three of
01:15Silicon Valley for that year so was in
01:17the writers room the whole summer which
01:19was awesome and just funny to see the
01:21perspective that the people in Hollywood
01:23have about like Silicon Valley and the
01:25way they view it differently than the
01:26people here view it you did improv early
01:28on in your career and then he did tack
01:31and how are those two are they related
01:33like how did one overlap and the other
01:36you're the only person in Silicon Valley
01:39who kind of has that background from my
01:41under your I think that's true so the
01:46idea that what happened was I was
01:49getting computer science degree at
01:50University of Michigan and at the time
01:52it wasn't in the engineering department
01:53it was in the sort of humanities
01:55department back when I got it because
01:59I decided I had to take class in my
02:03senior year that allowed me to have time
02:06to work on my operating systems class
02:07because my operating systems class was
02:09super hard and had involved tons of
02:11coding and I had to spend tons of time
02:12on that so I thought well I'll take an
02:14acting class because that'll be like
02:16super easy and I won't really have to do
02:17anything and I'll just go up and do
02:19scenes and stuff and can spend most of
02:21my time on my operating systems class
02:23and I had a ball doing that my first
02:25term senior year so I decided was gonna
02:27take another acting class and start
02:28doing like stand-up at the student union
02:30on like open mic night and stuff and
02:33that went really well and was super fun
02:35so I decided when I graduated not to
02:37take any of the programming job offers I
02:39had and instead try to go to second city
02:41in Chicago and do improv comedy and get
02:44into Saturday alive from there because
02:45that was sort of the stepping stone to
02:47SNL for everybody at the time and still
02:49is in fact I remember I got there my
02:50first day and you're doing the second
02:52city training center and Steve Carell
02:54and I and Rachel Dratch were all in the
02:56same group so he and I and Rachel know
02:58each other from like God 30 years ago
03:00now anyway long story short you know I
03:02eventually several years later got my
03:04audition for SNL and didn't didn't even
03:05make it to callbacks it just got sort of
03:07nuked in the first round and then
03:09auditioned for MADtv which was on Fox at
03:11the time and didn't get that I was like
03:12all right I got to go get a programming
03:14job and we went back into tech from
03:16there and amazingly years and years
03:19later the improv background and doing
03:21improv in front of you know hundreds and
03:23thousands of people without having a
03:25script like totally serves you well
03:27being a leader one first thing you learn
03:30and improv is that listening is the most
03:32important thing you can do on stage
03:34because you got to be aware of what else
03:35is happening in the scene and what else
03:37other people are doing otherwise if you
03:38go out there with some preconceived idea
03:40about where the scenes should go and
03:41it's already going in another direction
03:42it's not gonna make any sense I mean the
03:44people who are the best listeners turn
03:46out to be the best improvisers well 80%
03:49of what you do as a manager and a tech
03:50company and Silicon Valley is gather
03:53feedback and listen to your team and the
03:54people who go into the room thinking
03:56that they already know what the answer
03:57is and making decisions that you know
04:00create misery for the team aren't based
04:02on the right information or full
04:03information or maybe based on one
04:05stakeholders point of view and they
04:06don't end up being very good managers or
04:08leaders the second thing was it was very
04:10easy to do things like interviews
04:12I remember on CNBC interview the person
04:14was like hey this is gonna be live is
04:16that okay with you and I was like I've
04:17been booed onstage at 11 p.m. at the
04:20Adelaide Opera House by a 2000 drunk
04:22Australians like I'm gonna be fine
04:25having a camera here while we talk for 5
04:27minutes about advertising you know all
04:29these things that you do that seem like
04:30they're totally random end up helping
04:32you as a leader I teach at the GSB here
04:35and often my students come to me and say
04:37hey like what should I do after I
04:39graduate what should I do with my career
04:41and the simplest answer I give them is
04:44do what you love right as opposed to
04:46what's expected of you because many
04:47people come out of whatever environment
04:50there's all these external pressures it
04:53come out of a school you come out of a
04:55program whatever and people expect you
04:57to do certain things and we tend to bend
05:01in those directions because of these
05:03external pressures and so you're famous
05:07for doing what you love and not what's
05:09expected and how do you get over that
05:10what's your advice there I couldn't
05:13agree with you more my commencement
05:15speech at university of michigan in 2013
05:17i basically told them the exact same
05:19thing you just said I said listen you
05:21all got here by meeting and exceeding
05:24expectations you know you get into the
05:25University of Michigan and you graduate
05:27from it by meeting and exceeding
05:28expectations the problem is now there
05:31are no longer expectations and if you do
05:34what you think you're expected to do or
05:36suppose to do instead of doing what you
05:39love you know when things go wrong as
05:41they inevitably do you'll be standing
05:43there frozen on the stage of your life
05:46wondering well now what am I supposed to
05:47do and instead if you do what you love
05:50and things go wrong is he will you
05:53become resilient you're like all right
05:54well the acting stuff I just all right
05:57well that didn't work I'll go do another
05:58audition okay that didn't work I'll go
06:00do this and then you know it bounced
06:01around and do that stuff for seven eight
06:03years and didn't make any money but it
06:04was awesome I was having a ball
06:05performing and every time I took a big
06:08risk in my life that wasn't the right
06:11thing to go to next it totally paid off
06:14for me and worked out long-term and you
06:17know the other problem with doing what
06:18you're expected to do is you know people
06:20always tell students you have to go make
06:22an impact in the world and I always
06:24thought like I don't know what to do
06:26I'm supposed to do and if I think back
06:29on the things that Twitter or the things
06:30that I did in my life that ended up
06:32making an impact or having a big impact
06:33I didn't even know they were making an
06:35impact while we were doing them I
06:37remember one time Medvedev the President
06:39of Russia was at Twitter and we were
06:42like scrambling around trying to deal
06:44with him being there that day and you
06:45know there were all these security dogs
06:47in the building and the building
06:48landlord didn't want dogs in the
06:50building and the CIA was like you're
06:52gonna have friggin dogs in the building
06:53and here you're running around and like
06:55it's a nightmare and people are like
06:57trying to get an autograph from him I'm
06:59like he's not gonna give you an
07:00autograph he's the President of Russia
07:02anyway the next day in the front of the
07:04New York Times was like you know
07:05Medvedev greets Obama on Twitter and
07:09there's the exchanged greetings on the
07:11platform and I was like oh that was like
07:13a big day in the world but at the time I
07:16was like stop asking him for an
07:18autograph so I just remember that as one
07:21of those great examples of you can't
07:22think about that stuff in advance and
07:24try to plan it out it's kind of like
07:26what happens when you look over your
07:28shoulder is like oh that was those
07:29things we did made this big impact so
07:31you just have to do the things you want
07:33to do if you're not doing what you love
07:34you're not really going to be great at
07:36it and there's gonna be somebody else
07:38who's doing that job that you think
07:40you're expected to go do who loves that
07:43job who will crush you right because
07:45they really want to go do it and so the
07:48answer is actually so simple go do what
07:51you love no you're right I remember I
07:53saw I hadn't seen Steve for like 25
07:56years and he gave a talk here at the
07:58Lucile Packard Children's Hospital and I
08:00brought this Chicago Tribune review from
08:021986 of our show at Second City this
08:05picture of him and I and the other six
08:06people in the group I went up to him
08:08afterwards and showed him the picture
08:09and he patted me on the back you know as
08:10CEO of Twitter this is like 2012 and he
08:12patted me on the back and said I'm sorry
08:13it didn't work out for you
08:19consolation prize maybe let's switch
08:21attack you know maybe when you started
08:24and I started around the same time
08:25intact there was no internet at the time
08:27I was just coming out right like news
08:29groups now it's everywhere so you know
08:33if you were to sort of look ahead and
08:34say what consumer trends might be out
08:36there what are you seeing what do you
08:38hear I think it can be over stated or
08:42over dramatized but the machine learning
08:44stuff is just so important I mean even
08:49when I left Twitter it was really
08:50starting to impact our ability to
08:52deliver the right kinds of things to
08:53people on its powering half of Twitter
08:56moments which is instead of having to
08:58craft your own timeline which takes a
08:59lot of time and effort and going and
09:01finding all the accounts to follow
09:02moments just kind of uses human curation
09:04and machine learning to deliver the
09:06right kind of stuff to you all that is
09:08gonna be fascinating and important and
09:11have really profound implications for
09:15lots and lots and lots of domains I mean
09:17healthcare we're gonna look back 10
09:19years from now and go oh my god we let
09:21humans would only seen four cases of
09:23this decide what to do next instead of
09:25running it through you know here are the
09:27symptoms and evaluating against
09:29terabytes of historical data that was
09:31stupid you know how did you guys how did
09:33people live you know we'll think about
09:35it that way and I think that's gonna be
09:37your like wild and amazing and have lots
09:39of cool implications and ethical
09:42you know the alphago machine beat the
09:46world go champion Lise say doll move 37
09:49in the second game alphago made this
09:51move that all the expert commentators
09:53were like oh it screwed up it made a
09:55mistake look it made this stupid random
09:57move that's obviously a mistake and you
10:00know surprise surprise it turned out to
10:01be this like genius beautiful move and
10:03won the game and the Eagles quarterback
10:09but you know it's one of those they're
10:12gonna be lots of cases of in specific
10:14domains of it did this thing a human
10:16would never do and there will be lots of
10:17machine learning examples of well the
10:19machine thinks we should do X and the
10:21people think we should do Y but the
10:23machines will prove to be right more
10:25often than not so I just think that's
10:26going to be fascinating and
10:28of interesting implications there for
10:30tactical now you're not at Twitter you
10:32know you obviously learned a tremendous
10:34amount there and my role here I always
10:37try to figure out like what makes a
10:38great CEO as a board member and you look
10:41at CEOs everyone is different yeah yeah
10:45introverts technical not technical
10:48inside out upside down this set and the
10:50other some are great some are not great
10:52and some late lots are not great in your
10:57mind makes like the great CEOs man I can
11:01talk about this for hours so I'll try to
11:02summarize one they're super resilient
11:05look as I've said already a couple of
11:07times things inevitably go wrong like
11:10they just do something's happen you know
11:13you make stupid decisions you're like
11:15God why did I you know in hindsight
11:17you're like that was such a stupid
11:18decision and great CEOs are resilient I
11:21always told the team and the Pixar
11:23president Ed Catmull says this as well
11:25in his great book creativity Inc it's
11:28not your job as a leader to prevent
11:30mistakes from happening it's your job as
11:32leader to correct mistakes as quickly as
11:34you can when they happen if you try to
11:35lead by preventing mistakes from
11:37happening nobody's going to friggin take
11:38any chances and the company will slow
11:41because everyone's gonna go I don't want
11:42to get in trouble for you know that
11:44might something might go wrong if we do
11:45that and everyone's gonna start going
11:47around and asking for permission and
11:48then nothing gets done so it always tell
11:50my manager is like don't try to prevent
11:52mistakes from happening correct mistakes
11:54when they happen and I always tried to
11:56make sure that I admitted to the team
11:58when I screwed something up like hey
12:00last time we did this reorg it took too
12:02long when real eggs take a long time
12:04people start jockeying for position and
12:05being really political I totally screwed
12:07that up caused a bunch of brain damage
12:10so people knew like it was okay to make
12:12mistakes I'll tell you great resilience
12:14stories specific one so we're doing our
12:17IPO for Twitter in November 2013 and it
12:20took us like seven years to get to $16 a
12:23share and then it took us two weeks to
12:25get to $26 a share and then a day to get
12:28to 47 dollars a share the company didn't
12:30get five times better in the last two
12:32weeks than it did in the first seven
12:34years so just remember we now have a
12:37stock that will go up and down never had
12:39so you know and you try to like prepare
12:42for that and just get them to be
12:43resilient to it but you have to keep
12:45sort of reminding them of that stuff as
12:47bad news comes in or tried to always
12:49tell them like you know we're not as
12:51good as we are when people think
12:53everything's going great and we're not
12:54going to be as bad as things seem when
12:55people start writing bad articles about
12:57us what was it like to lead Twitter
13:00let's say through movements like the
13:02Arab Spring or the natural disaster the
13:05tsunami in Japan remember yep and
13:10there's news right it all comes to you
13:12guys so I'm having my Monday morning
13:14staff meeting one day and Kelly my chief
13:16of staff walk him and she's like
13:18whispering phone call for you I'm like
13:20I'm in the middle of my Monday morning
13:22staff meeting she goes it's a white
13:24house you know and I was like what do
13:26you call me for what did I do and so
13:28there was this weird you know time
13:30period we're a bunch of us out here had
13:32to start to realize wow we're like in
13:33the thick of these international
13:35discourse and political conversations
13:38and Egypt you know during the Arab
13:40Spring which sort of started in Tunisia
13:42with people organizing protests on
13:44Twitter and they were able to organize
13:45protests on Twitter because they were
13:47writing under pseudonyms and not you
13:49know their actual name so people weren't
13:50able to come over to their house and
13:51arrest them and then spread across North
13:53Africa and then Egypt shut us down and
13:55we work with Google to be able to allow
13:58people to use Twitter over the you know
13:59phone networks and through sort of
14:01various proxy servers they set up etc it
14:04was amazing to go from being like a you
14:06know computer science guy leading a tech
14:08company to involved in these
14:10conversations in the White House and
14:13when the White House cob just curious
14:14like what are they so it was Valerie
14:18Jarrett and she's like look the
14:19president wants to have a conversation
14:20about a bunch of stuff related to you
14:22know the way these platforms are being
14:24used and how they're being used and so a
14:25bunch of tech CEOs go to the White House
14:27and we're sitting in the Roosevelt Room
14:29and President Obama comes in we all sit
14:31down and unfortunately he asked me the
14:33first question so I'm like so like I
14:36stupidly I first stupidly all I do is
14:40answer the question and then he says you
14:42know to someone who I won't name know so
14:44and so what do you think about that and
14:46the person because first of all mr.
14:48president I just want to I think I'm
14:50sure I speak for all of us what I want
14:51to thank you for inviting us here today
14:54say you know and so while they're in the
14:58middle of that I go straight and
15:00everyone the room stops and looks at me
15:01and go and I go I meant to say that
15:05anyway so good thing
15:10listen here's a Brian Roberts of Comcast
15:12you like hit me it's like you're in huge
15:15trouble it must be so interesting all of
15:18a sudden you're in the middle of GOP
15:21round then though and you know like
15:24you're a platform for facilitating
15:27communication and like everyone expects
15:30you to have all the answers like hey
15:32what's going on in Tunisia like oh well
15:34I don't know be running this platform
15:38right it's like really interesting there
15:40were all sorts of moments like that at
15:42one point so there were some things
15:44going on if I remember correctly in
15:47Turkey it was that people were tweeting
15:50sort of blasphemous things about Ataturk
15:52the founder of the country and in
15:54Pakistan they were tweeting some things
15:56that were sort of you know against the
15:57speech restrictions in Pakistan and we
16:00got a fax from Pakistan and someone came
16:03into my office the truck had trust and
16:05safety came into my offices like hey we
16:06have a fax from the you know so-and-so
16:08our department in Pakistan it's like we
16:10have a fax machine no you could still
16:18get those you know and I was like how do
16:20we know it's from Pakistan you know it's
16:23just so weird and they're like how do we
16:25what do we do we fax them back what do
16:28we do I mean so it's like you're trying
16:31to find people in the country to deal
16:33with about this communications issue but
16:35you're like you don't have anyone on the
16:36ground in Pakistan it's just like you're
16:38you know you're fumbling around trying
16:39to figure out how to do that as a result
16:42of that was there a whole group inside
16:44of Twitter eventually that was sort of
16:45government interaction we put together a
16:47government group we had a team in DC
16:49that's trying to learn everything about
16:51how Washington works how do you fax
16:53Pakistan when they fax you dealing with
16:58things like you know everything from
16:59that to onboarding global leaders right
17:04Modi and in India on the platform and
17:07Prime Minister Abe a and Japan and those
17:09are I mean talk about nerve wracking
17:11like the Prime Minister of Japan was to
17:12meet you when you're here and like oh my
17:14god I hope I fumbled the ball in the
17:16Roosevelt Room I'm gonna go to Japan and
17:18do that correctly I like you know you're
17:21trying to learn all the things you have
17:22the protocol and the way to come into
17:24the room and who's supposed to speak
17:26I'm with Jenna computer science guy like
17:28you're trying to just figure this stuff
17:29out as you go all right cool
17:31all right let me open it up for
17:32questions I've noticed that the most
17:34successful people also have a really
17:37amazing capability to tell stories and
17:39you're known as an amazing storyteller
17:41thank you know it's not all improv one
17:46of the things I used to like to do at
17:48Twitter is because I felt like imagery
17:50was important and powerful is I'd put an
17:54image up in front of the company and
17:55tell a story about that image and then
17:58when they would see that image like oh
17:59yeah that's your representation of this
18:01story so you know 2014 comes around sure
18:04enough as I said the night of the IPO
18:06that you know stock went to 47 and I got
18:08up in front of the company gave that
18:09speech by the end of the year the stock
18:10could gone to 75 in fact the last week
18:13of the year of 2013 while I was you know
18:16had taken a much-needed vacation with
18:18the family at the end of the year after
18:19the IPO the stock went up $5 a day every
18:23day for no reason like I don't know was
18:25the end of the year and people were like
18:26giving other people Twitter shares for
18:29Christmas or something so I got back and
18:32our stock was at $75 a share again keep
18:34in mind a month earlier it was like it's
18:37gonna be a 16 dollar a share stock it's
18:38now at 75 not much has changed at all
18:41and I walked in the office and looked at
18:42Kelly know when were so like this
18:45is gonna be a horrible year because
18:47first of all over the holiday break all
18:49my employers are multiplying their
18:51number of options by 75 I now have this
18:53in your three years I'll have this much
18:55money when all my options are vested and
18:57I'd like you can tell people until
18:59you're blue in the face hey we're gonna
19:00now have a stock that goes up and down
19:03this time 75 is this much
19:07it goes up to a hundred it'll be this
19:10much so I should look at these kinds of
19:12houses so in 2014 you know as the new
19:16cycle inevitably starts to get to be
19:18what's wrong like why isn't it eight
19:20times better than it was last year I put
19:22the image of Mikkel Angelo's David just
19:24the Statue of David in front of the
19:25company and I gave this like long talk
19:28about it I said listen during the
19:29Renaissance all the other Renaissance
19:31artists who portrayed that David and
19:33Goliath they represented it in sculpture
19:35as David having beheaded Goliath and
19:38standing on his head with his sword at
19:40his feet you know Verrocchio's Donatello
19:41and these bronzes with David standing on
19:44Goliath's head and when michelangiolo
19:46portrayed the David you know he's got
19:48the sling over his shoulder in the rock
19:50in his hand and he's like tenses neck
19:51muscles are tensed up is he's obviously
19:53looking in the direction of Goliath and
19:55art historians like to say that
19:57michelangiolo wanted to portray David in
20:00that moment between conscious choice and
20:02decisive action he knows what he needs
20:04to do and now he just needs to go do it
20:06and I showed that image to the company I
20:08said look there's gonna be all these
20:10articles this year about like you know
20:11Dick's are had you know the company
20:14can't do anything why is Facebook have a
20:17billion users and you guys only have 300
20:19million just remember this like we know
20:21we have to do we've had a plan that
20:22we've needed X you'd against for the
20:24last year we all know what those
20:25priorities are we've made our decision
20:26about what we need to do now we need to
20:28go do it we're between conscious choice
20:30and decisive action don't get distracted
20:32by the external noise we're not as great
20:35as everyone thinks we are today and
20:36we're not going to be as stupid as
20:37everyone thinks we are tomorrow so I
20:39tried to do that with stories I would do
20:42that like every so often you know
20:43whether it was that or another image or
20:45some other piece of art or something
20:47that was easy for people to remember I
20:48wonder for both of you if you could
20:50paint a picture of your circle of
20:51expressed advisors how do you think
20:53about structuring that and then maybe
20:55how that might translate for us who are
20:57new to the industry you need to learn
20:59and grow and maybe just - I'll answer it
21:04slightly as opposed to trusted advisor
21:06the idea of mentorship when I was at
21:09this company Veritas I came in as an
21:11engineer and like I just you know
21:14started coding right and that was like
21:16what I did and I formed a relationship
21:20the CEO at the point at you know early
21:22in my career there I don't know actually
21:23how it had well we went out to lunch one
21:26day and he said hey what do you want to
21:27do when you grow up and I said well I'm
21:29not really sure maybe I want to run a
21:31company someday whatever and like he
21:34took notice of me finding a mentor in an
21:37environment is super important at least
21:38it was for me they can guide you you
21:40know they have seniority and expertise
21:43to say hey why don't you go try this and
21:45they sort of watch out for you a little
21:46bit so they won't let you go off the
21:48guardrails too much and like they want
21:50you to try new things and experience new
21:52things so I'll often suggest that to
21:54people I mean to answer the question
21:56trusted advisor it's more about
21:57mentorship I have lots and lots and lots
22:01of them and I'm always interested in
22:04more and I never have viewed those
22:07advisors as having to be people that are
22:11so Kelley was like one of my trusted
22:13advisors of Twitter I always knew she
22:14would tell me the truth you know people
22:16would go like that was great that was
22:17great and Kelley would go like you kind
22:18of like that was kind of we were all
22:20over the place I don't know if everyone
22:21understands what you were talking about
22:22you know cuz everyone else is like
22:24telling me what I want to hear how was
22:25that it was great when Kelley would say
22:27like you know like you need to tighten
22:29that up so I would always look for
22:30people that would tell me the truth you
22:32it didn't matter what their seniority
22:34was or whether they had done this job
22:35before anything like that but I felt
22:37like I could learn from so Kelley this
22:39woman who worked for me at Twitter named
22:40Kim Scott we used to run Google Adsense
22:43publisher side at Google who was also
22:45like Kim's not gonna you know be su
22:47she's gonna be like don't do that again
22:49that was horrible so to have a sort of
22:51half-hour weekly meeting with her cuz I
22:53knew she would just you know tell it
22:54like it is and then Bill Campbell who is
22:56you know on the Apple board and work
22:59closely with Steve and Eric Schmidt at
23:00Google and Bill was also like really no
23:03BS like how is that shitty you know like
23:06oh okay well got it don't do that again
23:10you know that kind of stuff like so
23:12people who would tell you the truth and
23:14be forthright with you and cut through
23:15the you know well this was okay and I
23:17was always all people I felt like I
23:19would tell me the truth and I could
23:20learn from those people okay thank you
23:22very much thanks everybody
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