00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6 & Z
00:02podcast I am sonal we talk about
00:04everything from tech trends to company
00:06building on this podcast but one of the
00:08company building topics that
00:09surprisingly mystifying is PR since so
00:12much of the strategy and tactics behind
00:14public relations are actually hidden
00:16from public view so today we cover the
00:19frequently asked question of how to
00:20manage a PR agency from when to bring
00:23one in and the mechanics of onboarding
00:25and engaging with them two key acronyms
00:27to know in the process of doing so -
00:30what are the ideal configurations for
00:31the who what and where of in-house
00:33versus agency PR joining us to have this
00:36conversation we have Margot when
00:37Walker's operating partner at Andreessen
00:39Horowitz who oversees a six and zeez
00:41marketing function which includes brand
00:43and communications among many other
00:45things before that she co-founded and
00:47sold the outcast agency which worked
00:49with some of the now biggest Internet
00:51companies then startups and continues to
00:53work with leading tech companies today
00:55and then we have Shannon Brayton who is
00:57the chief marketing officer at LinkedIn
00:59she has worked in house in corporate
01:01communications at several prominent
01:02Internet companies including OpenTable
01:05which later IPO and formerly served as
01:07vice president of corporate
01:08communications at eBay together Shannon
01:11and Margit provide perspectives from
01:13both sides of the table in-house versus
01:15agency big company versus startup for
01:18what it takes to manage PR by the way
01:20you can find more background on other
01:21topics touched on in this episode
01:22including PR 101 crisis communications
01:25and building a personal brand in our
01:27podcast series you can look under public
01:29relations tag but this conversation
01:31begins by quickly recapping the why of
01:33PR the first voice you'll hear after
01:35mine is shannon's followed by markets so
01:37how do you guys actually answer the
01:39question of do they even need an agency
01:41or not in the first place
01:42well I always start with what are you
01:43trying to achieve so if you are there
01:45because you're trying to get users PR is
01:46not the only lever you should be pulling
01:48obviously but if you are trying to get
01:51funding or you're trying to get acquired
01:53or you're trying to get someone else's
01:55attention PR is a good lever to pull but
01:57you don't necessarily need an agency to
01:59do that right so it all depends on the
02:01objective yeah and if it's early-stage
02:03PR can be very helpful because it makes
02:06everything else easier right so it makes
02:09hiring easier it makes fundraising
02:11easier makes everything easier but
02:13there's almost never a direct
02:15correlation it's like I did this they
02:18interview in fortune and therefore I got
02:21these customers it's just not how it
02:22works you're saying it's valuable but
02:24there's not necessarily a direct it's
02:26hard to be measured it's a leap and
02:27aspirate it's a leap of faith yeah
02:30I think the biggest tip I give people
02:32that asked me about this is don't expect
02:35to hire an agency and get results
02:36immediately just laying them all of a
02:38sudden you actually need to invest in
02:39the relationship both ways the closer
02:41I've brought an agency the better the
02:44results the more I keep them out in
02:45arm's length the results just completely
02:48go downhill and then the expectations
02:51and the relationship just starts to sour
02:52but I have a question about this because
02:54honestly like if I'm a founder and I'm
02:56busy trying to build a fricken company
02:58for God's sake and in the beginning
02:59you're doing like 20 things that one's
03:00wearing 20 hats I don't have the time to
03:03manage an agency like isn't the point of
03:05outsourcing it to just not think about
03:07it in agencies ideally managed not by
03:10the founder because as a CEO you've lots
03:14of things to do right your growing
03:15company or probably managing engineering
03:17still there's a lot of things to do so
03:19ideally you have someone with a lot of
03:22input from you who will help the agency
03:26be successful and the other way around
03:28and so yes you do weekly phone calls and
03:31you share a list and like this is not in
03:32the other but there's like okay the
03:34building the camaraderie and sort of the
03:36the investment together the agency can
03:39only tell the stories that they know
03:41right so if you're if you are the
03:43founder that has that gene and
03:45understands like oh this will be
03:46interesting to wired that will be
03:48interesting to TechCrunch this is not
03:50interesting at all which obviously
03:51nobody can do like that's just a this is
03:54not a given that you have that skill so
03:56then if you don't then you need to let
03:59that team in so they can discover the
04:01stories and tell them for you and then
04:03they do all of the story finding the
04:05fact finding the backup like who needs
04:07to tell the story and all then then they
04:09figure out how to map a particular idea
04:11to a particular person at a particular
04:14outlet who will be interested in that
04:15and building the story is not oh hi I'm
04:18gonna call you and I'm gonna tell you
04:19the story and then you're gonna tell the
04:20reporter bringing the person into your
04:21world and letting them help find it
04:23experience your culture get to know you
04:26that's gonna make the story much richer
04:27yeah it's not dictation they asked them
04:29your story there has to be some tension
04:30who is well suited to tell the story
04:33what kind of proof point do you need if
04:35any right some right tip number one
04:37right right you have to be willing to be
04:39in a relationship so there's a real
04:41dance I'm hearing but quite frankly what
04:43I'm also hearing a little bit of it just
04:45disillusion me of this is why would I
04:48even bother outsourcing this why not
04:50just hire someone in-house like why do
04:52all this work if you're saying it's not
04:54dictation you should be able to discover
04:55it's totally legit I mean like yeah I
04:58don't think Apple has really used PR
05:00agencies there are models where you
05:02don't have an agency at all what we
05:04should do is dissect like how would you
05:06divide and conquer like who's who's good
05:08at what if your internal you probably
05:11are you're more of your time is often
05:13consumed with like talking to the
05:14product managers and figure out what the
05:16roadmap is right and like doing all that
05:18like finding the stories making sure
05:20that everything moves forward do all
05:22those meetings right and you don't have
05:24any of that when you're on the agency
05:25sorry right your time is taken up with
05:26talking to reporters all the time
05:29because you have multiple clients and as
05:31a result you know stories that are kind
05:34of outside of scope and that's
05:35interesting to a client where it's like
05:37you know I be good for me to know if
05:40wired is doing a cover story on AI so
05:42you're saying an agency in that context
05:44that that person has the time to really
05:46keep their tabs and what the reports are
05:47doing all the time yeah essentially I
05:49two things I think when it works really
05:52really well so one is when you've got
05:53way more program dollars to spend and
05:55you'd rather do that then bring on a
05:56head count which is much more of a fixed
05:58cost so a CFO actually a conversation
06:00with the CFO is typically Oh an agency
06:03sounds like the great model instead of
06:04hiring three people that may be very
06:05very hard to manage and then potentially
06:08have to exit at some point number two if
06:10you've got you get the phone call hey
06:12we're gonna launch in India but we're
06:14actually not gonna put an office there
06:15or a country manager and we just need
06:17some arms and legs on the ground that
06:19works beautifully to be able to find an
06:20agency in the network and call up and
06:22say we really need your help with
06:23project a and if it works out we'd love
06:25to keep you up so that's where like more
06:26specialty type thinkin
06:27you can dial up and down and sideways
06:29particularly you know once you're really
06:31established high-growth company you want
06:33to grow the team you want all of that
06:34but like when you're not in that stage
06:36an agency can be super super effective
06:38so the I hear that thing
06:40on that specialties may vary and that
06:42some of the media relationships may vary
06:43but are you also guys saying then that
06:46people should outsource their media
06:47relationships to their agency or do the
06:49in-house people also still invest like
06:51how you sort of divvy that bit up I
06:53think it really depends on who's got the
06:55relationship and there should not be
06:56pride of ownership no if the agency has
06:59the better relationship like in markets
07:00KSAT outcasts they probably had way
07:02better relationships with reporters and
07:03half their clients the client has to be
07:05willing to say Margit I'm fine with you
07:07calling Quentin Hardy I don't need to do
07:09that and not having that conflict of
07:12interest between the two it should
07:13really be who's ever got the best
07:14relations right and at the same time I
07:16think is really important for internal
07:18folks to be talking to the press because
07:21you kind of lose touch what is even a
07:23good story what are they thinking like
07:25what what's kind of in the water and not
07:28knowing that at all it is just really
07:30detrimental however do you need to be
07:34booking all of the appointments or do
07:35you need to be working on every story
07:37probably not right so it's a balance and
07:39the internal team too gets a lot of g2
07:42on other companies by talking to
07:43reporters directly to if shapes out the
07:45relationship some information about
07:46other companies I'm recommending the
07:48valley and Industry just Intel in
07:50general and so I think you don't want to
07:52ever have the agency team do all of it
07:54at the exclusion of the right in-house
07:56they should have their own it's like
07:58you're basically not outsourcing your
07:59insights and your connections but you
08:01are trying to scale what you do and and
08:03leverage where you don't have
08:04specialties right etcetera that
08:06potentially fixed cost I remember being
08:08in situations where the reporter won't
08:11tell the company directly like what's up
08:14but they'll tell you you're the
08:16inconvenient messenger I think a conduit
08:19and then on the client side sometimes
08:21sometimes it's really nice to have an
08:23agency walk in and it'll ever a
08:25particular message versus you do I got
08:28you're the best definition of consulting
08:30in general is that they're the people
08:31who will say what the internal people
08:33think all along and but just don't get
08:35across this is why I love agencies do
08:37media training to it because agencies
08:39can really tell a CEO actually you look
08:41like a complete dweeb or this message
08:43completely did not resonate where the
08:44employee sometimes has a harder time
08:46landing that message so we've been
08:48talking so far about
08:49common configurations for working with
08:51an agency like having an in-house and
08:53and an agency let's switch and talk
08:55about timing when should you bring an
08:58agency in or not now one assumption
09:01maybe this is a good assumption I've
09:02heard is that a lot of times in the very
09:04early days of a startup at least you
09:06don't have any hires you just need to
09:08get launched and announcement out is
09:10that the time to bring an agency in or
09:12should you be trying to hire I think an
09:13agency to come in at the very beginning
09:15and talk about the company's narrative
09:17and what are your value props
09:18what are your market fit and who are the
09:19people running this company super super
09:21valuable to have an agency help you do
09:22that without having to hire someone at
09:24the outset I totally agree one thing
09:27that I've learned in working with a lot
09:29of startups is that you need to like
09:30strip all the language that we are used
09:33to because I can't hear it so so for
09:36example CEO will call and say like we're
09:40launching soon we need to have an agency
09:42you know like can you arrange the launch
09:45and then oftentimes people say like well
09:48first thing we need to do is we need to
09:49do a messaging positioning blah blah and
09:51they just you're like blah blah blah
09:52dollars blah blah blah dollars and none
09:54of it means anything to you try to work
09:56backwards from where the CEO is okay so
09:59when is the product ready you know it's
10:02all different whether it's consumer
10:03Enterprise right like and work back from
10:05there and go like well if you want to
10:07get have your launch day be that that
10:09means you'd have to be on the road doing
10:11interviews then and then before that
10:13just kind of meet them where they are
10:15and try to strip out all the technical
10:17lingo out of the thing because that's
10:19that's like it's like engineer talk it
10:21was back to starting with what the goal
10:23is right and one of the things I'll ask
10:25people to at the at the outset is what
10:27is your desired headline let's link
10:29think about your dream cover story what
10:31does that say and what is the headline
10:33and then you get a really good view into
10:36what's going on when you asked about the
10:37absolute dreaded headline because you
10:39can actually glean what is potentially
10:41underneath that you're not necessarily
10:42being told isn't that a little bit
10:44dangerous also for them though in terms
10:46of mixed messages because a lot of
10:48founders especially those who haven't
10:50done communications and marketing before
10:52they assume that oh I'm gonna say this
10:54this is the truth this is the message
10:56there is no variation from this it's
10:58like logic not story which has multiple
11:01flavors of interpretation
11:03why so what would you would do is like
11:04you basically are taking them on the
11:07journey with you right if they say like
11:09I want the headline to be like we have
11:11the best search engine technology on the
11:13planet mm-hmm and you're like okay well
11:15then how like what would the reporter
11:17need to come to that conclusion right
11:20and so then you'll walk again you walk
11:22backwards with them where you have them
11:24go substantiate the story and then if
11:27you can't then they'll discover you're
11:30discovering that together right you
11:32don't commit to the headline basically
11:34say if this is the type of story you
11:36want here's all the stuff I'm gonna need
11:38to be true in order to help you go and
11:40don't trust an agency ever that will
11:42promise you a headline or a story or any
11:44kind of outcome so how does the
11:46lifecycle of a company look and if you
11:48could set up an ideal model is there an
11:49ideal model so an example you're a
11:52basically an established person with an
11:55established career in Silicon Valley and
11:57all you want to do is you know put out
12:01something that you're working on
12:02something so you get an inflow of like
12:04talent and you know investors knocking
12:06on the door and whatnot and you just
12:08want to be very efficient about it you
12:10probably have a relationship with a
12:12reporter and you I don't pick up the
12:13phone assign it to someone you do this
12:15one story and off you go and then you go
12:17back into stealth and you're done like
12:19you don't really need it need an agent
12:21and what would the next inflection point
12:23be to bring in an agency again or to
12:24have one on a regular basis I'd say a
12:26huge influx of media inquiries coming to
12:28you because then you realize actually
12:30this is getting out there we're not
12:31controlling the story so I think if
12:32you're getting you know 5 to 10 a month
12:34you're probably at a point where you may
12:36need an agency to help you manage
12:38through that so when you get a lot of
12:40media inquiries other inflection points
12:41there are companies that like really
12:43don't have any profile and they're
12:46thinking of going public I would say you
12:48have left money on the table if you find
12:50yourself in that position because
12:52there's not that much you can do look
12:54once you meet with bankers you're in a
12:56quiet period so you can't really be
12:58doing anything right so if you are a
13:01company where there's product market fit
13:04the company is growing things are going
13:07well and you're thinking of if it's an
13:08enterprise software company another
13:10office somewhere you have a management
13:11team right and you're thinking like you
13:13know what we should you know we should
13:15get the CFO in the door
13:17because in the next two years we want to
13:20be in a position that if the market is
13:22good we might file you definitely need
13:24to get a PR firm and yesterday because
13:26you only have a very short window in
13:29which you can do anything at all before
13:30you go quiet that's actually rather
13:31counterintuitive because I would think
13:33that you would want PR when things
13:34aren't going very well but it sounds
13:35like you're saying actually when you
13:36have tracks you want to take advantage a
13:38little that's right and that's the next
13:40inflection point I was going to say
13:41which is it's more incidental than
13:43inflection point but a crisis I would
13:45not leave it to a founder or management
13:48team to manage a crisis on their own you
13:49don't have damp PR expertise you're not
13:52allowed to do this long and frankly even
13:54if you did I was what to say I've seen
13:55these guys in action like there's a
13:57diagnostic thing that only a crisis
13:59person can come out yeah you want
14:01professional help the best example the
14:03trivia one they desperately needed some
14:06PR help way earlier than they probably
14:09actually all right yes you're
14:10referencing the story where the founder
14:12emailed the PR folks and said don't
14:14quote this guy correct have this article
14:15and that person who was working for them
14:17kind of went rogue and did their own
14:18thing and they were all over social
14:21media and the whole story was just take
14:23going in a million different directions
14:24nobody wasn't charged over there boy
14:26they sure could have brought in some
14:28help one other thing too I think there
14:31are certain people I've worked with who
14:32think oh I don't need to tell her about
14:34that thing it's like some skeleton that
14:36I inevitably end up finding out about
14:38and so I wish I knew upfront because I
14:40would potentially do things differently
14:42in year one if I knew that in year two
14:44it was gonna come out you had a DUI or
14:47something the thing is that you know I
14:49think lawyers I've never been in the
14:50situation knock on wood but I think the
14:52lawyers tell you like I don't want to
14:53know if you did the thing all right
14:55whatever PR people do I want to know
14:57it's the exact opposite and not help you
14:59if you're lying to me and I cannot help
15:01I cannot steer the ship right story wise
15:03if I don't know what to stay away from
15:06no information is privileged for a PR
15:08person that's right and by the way with
15:10my DUI example it's totally hypothetical
15:12but I would not put a founder into a car
15:16for a photo shoot if I knew he had a DUI
15:19cuz I think that way sure is gonna be
15:20amazing for reporters to use in a year
15:23so I need to know that but that's you
15:25know that's a very different muscle
15:26right so there is a kind of PR that
15:29you build right and then there's a kind
15:31of PR that helps you protect and you
15:33know like figure out how the most
15:35elegant way to be in a crouch proactive
15:37and reactive basically essentially yeah
15:39well there's reactive stuff where you
15:40know things are going great and people
15:42want to write about you and you want to
15:43do the building phase yeah yeah and you
15:45react to that but like all of that is
15:47building right you are trying to see
15:49stories that don't exist right you're in
15:51a crisis you're trying to minimize a
15:53story that very much exists a very
15:55certain type of person enjoys managing
15:57through a crisis and so you want to get
15:59an agency that has that type of person
16:01or that type of deep experience in the
16:03trench it's more time people this goes
16:04back to the whole notion of specialties
16:06which you both mentioned earlier so are
16:07there any other specialties on the PR
16:08I'm sure there's a million flavors there
16:11are people who are really good at
16:12product reviews and if you're a hardware
16:14company and like product reviews are the
16:17they're their own animal right like and
16:20you want to make them for the most part
16:22yeah really high touch you know someone
16:25is there to hold the reporters hands
16:26obviously and prover really you know as
16:30they discover the product that's its own
16:32muscle there's a set of people who will
16:34review products you know if you do it
16:35right you know you even get coverage
16:37about like the unpacking the whole nine
16:38bits like that's very different from
16:40exact comps so so far I've heard exact
16:43comms product I've heard crisis are
16:46there developers or like dealing with
16:48developer communities consumer consumer
16:50I could do GMA Today Show or CBS this
16:52morning which segment do you want though
16:54that's a real specialty and those are
16:56usually people based in New York who
16:58have the deep relationships with the
16:59producers at these shows for a consumer
17:01facing product that's the Nirvana is to
17:03have a tenacious lot right right still
17:05still even that's just hard to believe
17:07that I just this morning apparently in
17:102019 the people will get the majority of
17:13their news online and not on TV I'm like
17:16it hasn't happened yet that's surprising
17:18well that's where the reality does come
17:19in I have a friend who founded a beauty
17:21related company and she was saying that
17:22getting a placement in InStyle magazine
17:24and also in Hugh Donnelly built based in
17:26New York was the only thing that moved
17:29product for them and the thing is like
17:31you do the holiday gift guide press tour
17:35in July and you do the little stand and
17:37yeah giveaways and it's beautiful photo
17:40photography and it's
17:42all that stuff it's like it has nothing
17:45to do with like how you would community
17:47how you blog for a developer I worked at
17:49eBay for seven years and so every July
17:51we literally had like a Santa in
17:53100-degree weather passing out eBay
17:55related gifts I'm literally at Times
17:57Square that's what you had to get in the
18:00gift guides with in July but you need
18:03someone that knows that you need someone
18:04that really understands how to execute
18:06that type of event and that you need
18:07that kind of lead time yeah I mean like
18:09literally I've come across companies
18:11where they they call in November and I
18:14want to be in the holiday gift oh that's
18:15and now these the following here the
18:17magazine side like that's the thing
18:18sorority shipped like you're already
18:19late physically editorially you know if
18:22you're a product company like how would
18:24you possibly know right exactly are
18:26there other milestones like that so as
18:28we're on this topic of managing an
18:29agency clearly part of this process you
18:31guys began with the need to discover the
18:33stories internally you've talked about
18:35the but proactive and reactive moments
18:37incidental and building ones now what
18:40are the other kind of broad milestones
18:42to think about in a company's life cycle
18:43that could be newsy moments exist right
18:47and let me just say a lot of them you
18:49bundle together right like we exist and
18:52depend that's interesting depending on
18:54who the people are and what they're
18:55working on all of that then you've
18:57raised money and of course the weather
18:59that's an inflection points that the bar
19:00for press coverage keeps raising because
19:02you know people raise rather large
19:04rounds these days right then you get
19:07Rockstar independent board member all of
19:09those are ingredients right okay product
19:11right like and where the product
19:13milestones you and then you have product
19:14market fit where all of a sudden 50% of
19:16Wall Street uses your product like
19:18there's lots of milestones and I'm not
19:20saying every one of them is a big to-do
19:23but they're markers and then you want to
19:25handle them strategically I'm so glad
19:27you brought this up I think a lot of
19:29people particularly when it's their
19:31first time out they're lucky they just
19:33this PR thing happens they have a nice
19:36product and it it's viral and this and
19:38the other and they don't understand like
19:40how lucky there and they can't separate
19:42the two and then they just think it just
19:44rinse and repeat without doing anything
19:46and that that those are flukes right
19:48most of the rest of us you need to be
19:50very deliberate and thoughtful and smart
19:55moments you aggregate together or can go
19:57stand alone who cares about the
20:00different things beyond salvation what
20:02do you mean by what's the vehicle
20:03sometimes you want to put a tweet out
20:04sometimes you actually want to just give
20:06it to a reporter exclusive right
20:07sometimes you want to write a press
20:09release do people still do those it kind
20:11of depends on what you're trying to
20:12achieve so what are other milestones I
20:14mean you mentioned earlier the Gift
20:16Guide were there any other consumer type
20:18ones like that there's a company I'm
20:19talking to you right now who's based in
20:21LA and they want to go national so if
20:22you're really taking your story out of a
20:25small area and making it national that's
20:27an excellent place for an agency because
20:29you know if you are launching you know
20:31if you're one of those like companies in
20:33the transportation bucket right like
20:35you're not going to put people
20:36everywhere but you are going to launch
20:37in different markets right right for
20:39sure kind of getting local people
20:40players on the ground so let's shift
20:42gear here and just go deep for a couple
20:44of minutes on some terminology I love
20:45doing this on the podcast we do taxonomy
20:47and terminology people mostly don't like
20:49to admit that they don't know a lot of
20:50these they think PR is fluffy and oh I
20:52should know it right when you dig into
20:54it you realize most people don't know
20:58side of receiving PR pitches and when I
21:00first came here someone mentioned g8 and
21:03I was like what the is GA and it's
21:05generally available for the product
21:06being available let's do a little
21:08so AOR agency of record and what does it
21:11mean why does it matter it means that
21:13you have a master agreement with an
21:15agency who's going to service your
21:17business for a certain amount of money
21:19feels like a retainer it's a retainer
21:20it's a contract mm-hm so let me ask you
21:22a question so because you've been on the
21:24corporate side so much like you have an
21:26agency of record but you have multiple
21:28agencies okay biggest it's probably the
21:33biggest piece of your budget it's the
21:35deepest relationship and say it's an
21:37agency who covers everything except
21:39crisis and then you have a crisis you
21:40would go outside of your AOR to
21:42supplement their skillset with another
21:44with a different agency RFP request for
21:47proposal and so we do this at the same
21:50time oh my god so that's sort of
21:52oftentimes companies use this process
21:54where they put out an RFP to multiple
21:56agencies so they have some sort of
21:59standard set of questions and answers
22:00right and oftentimes they select the
22:03bigger the company gets the more
22:04involved they can get and they're often
22:05driven by a procurement and not the
22:09although they're obviously orchestrated
22:10by that and it's sort of who's who are
22:13you as a business right like revenues
22:15team size locations all that kind of
22:17stuff right and then how would you
22:19handle X or give us your ideas for Y and
22:23then the agency comes in and oftentimes
22:26you send in the questionnaire and then
22:28there's sort of this bake-off right
22:30where you do the proposal and you bring
22:32the team it's a dog and pony show it's a
22:34dog and pony show you come up with
22:36really good ideas based on nothing and
22:38then you get you have to sell I'm not
22:42sure I would recommend them I don't
22:43think they're the most effective things
22:44it comes down to oftentimes where like
22:46that agency has really good ideas the
22:49big thing I would add on RFP to is do
22:51not bring in the shiny object from DC or
22:54the shiny object from New York if that
22:55is not your account team bring the
22:57people who are going to work on
22:58accounting that is one thing an agency
22:59will do is like Oh John is here he was
23:03Clinton's social media policy person and
23:06then you never see John ever again yes
23:08there to win the pitch I always when I
23:10would do rfp's back in the day I would
23:12always tell people I only want to see
23:14the team that I'm gonna be working with
23:15every day it's really important that's
23:17super important and that's why you know
23:19if if you actually do the process that
23:21way and you make that requirement that
23:23team is ready to go you've literally
23:24onboard of them actually they're in it
23:25yes so I'd love to get your perspective
23:28on this if you put your account up for
23:30review because you're not happy with
23:31your agency the incumbent agency should
23:34not be allowed to pitch I think it's
23:36terrible for the agency and I think it's
23:38terrible for the company I'm gonna say
23:40something harsh if the agency actually
23:42wants to reap itch the business you
23:44should fire them again just a stupid-ass
23:47decision replace the revenue learn from
23:51why is the account gone and then move
23:53the hell on I could not agree more you
23:56set up all these bad dynamics by doing
23:57it well I do have a question though
23:59which is how do you avoid the
24:01complacency problem when you do have an
24:02ongoing agency of record and you want to
24:05light a fire under them so I think
24:07Outcast was really good at this because
24:09we had clients like so Salesforce calm
24:11for example we had I think about a dozen
24:13years from 1998 onwards right through
24:17think of five V PS of marketing before
24:20the company filed for IPO and that was
24:22Karen Maroni she did an amazing amazing
24:25job managing that account through
24:26changes inflection points growth and
24:29what we would do is we would ask
24:31ourselves and we'd ask the teams like
24:34okay so what's on the to-do list and
24:36what's not on the to-do list and like
24:39forget what the client is telling you
24:41during the weekly call it's like what do
24:43you think will blow them away and then
24:45go do that and like do not ignore media
24:48because if there's a good story you have
24:51permission to do everything else you can
24:53have every conversation you can screw up
24:55occasionally but if there's no media
24:56then like what are you doing and as a
24:58result we always were called a media
25:00shop and I was like you know what I'll
25:01wear that badge with pride because I
25:02think it's important what does it mean
25:04to be a media shop actually don't know
25:05what that means that oh the only thing
25:06that you can do is talk to reporters do
25:09you do best as media right you can't
25:10like you're not really good at crisis
25:13you're not really good at building out
25:15like messaging but like that's the thing
25:17it's like you get so mired into like
25:19this is what's on the to-do list and
25:21mind you if you're working with a
25:24company your client may be sophisticated
25:28and they may not be so you need to do
25:30that like you need to be have your own
25:31motor and machine to go like okay what
25:34should it look like and then go do that
25:37yep and on my own I would say at eBay
25:39the best relationship I ever had with an
25:41agency was with Kaplow communications
25:43who was based in New York and the reason
25:45that we were able to avoid complacency
25:47with them is we were basically
25:48categorized into different products
25:52categories basically what they had
25:54clothing shoes and accessories but it
25:56was like if you nail this you can get
25:58another category so he kept up being the
26:00PI and they weren't a fit for every
26:02single category right but it was always
26:04a possibility and so that kept them from
26:07besides the domains you guys have
26:09described like consumer enterprise some
26:11of these pieces of the pie or
26:12specialties like crisis local what are
26:15that your thoughts aren't the other
26:17competencies within a shop like should
26:19you go for one-size-fits-all agency that
26:21offers interactive and writing and other
26:23things should you go for a boutique firm
26:25that only focuses on X like do you have
26:27thoughts on the size and the types of
26:29the agencies themselves I don't mean to
26:31sound like a broken record but it
26:32depends what you're trying to solve for
26:34well that's it we're sort of very
26:36if the company is doing well basically
26:40across the board and its global it's
26:43kind of nice to have an AOR that is
26:46global because you can just turn knobs
26:48you can turn things on and off and then
26:50you can add and layer and we look at the
26:53look at yes a global agreement because
26:55you know if you know if you if you're
26:58that established it's nice to go like
27:00okay I need the Indian people to do X
27:03right I need the team in South Africa to
27:05lay low for a while it's just that's
27:08easier like otherwise you have like you
27:10have to figure out like who's my
27:12international agency there and who may I
27:14do think a lot of agencies promise that
27:16they're amazing at that oh don't worry
27:17my Greece counterpart will easily talk
27:19to the Brazil counterpart it doesn't
27:21happen as seamlessly as it looks so you
27:23really have to dig before you hire them
27:25on for a global job to make sure that
27:26these processes are really down you will
27:29often give up the higher a bar for the
27:34globe for the coverage because I don't
27:35think it's true like nobody can tell me
27:37that there is an eight I have not seen
27:39an agency that is equally excellent in
27:43every office after they have I just
27:45don't a less than a few minutes now just
27:47talking about the mechanics of engaging
27:48with an agency we've already talked
27:50about the process of why it matters the
27:52terms how to you know the configurations
27:55give me some more of the nitty-gritty of
27:57bringing them into your machinery so you
27:59guys mentioned like you want to have
28:00regular check-ins should they be weekly
28:02should they be daily should there be
28:04someone in your office embedded should
28:06there be someone just on a phone call
28:08how do you manage all that
28:10so weekly usually has worked for me in
28:13the past I think embedding them those
28:15are the people who have done the best
28:17with the company they can walk around
28:18they've got great relationships they get
28:20a vibe for the culture they can go to an
28:21all-hands meeting in here the story from
28:23the CEO there was a model again with
28:25Kaplow where there had somebody that
28:27went on leave for six weeks and I went
28:29to New York and worked out of their
28:30office for six weeks and that was
28:32amazing for me too it was 38 yeah
28:34inverted it and I got a better view of
28:36how the agency ran and what they needed
28:39more from my team and how challenging
28:40the time zone thing was and it was
28:43really valuable there's nothing that
28:44sort of is like picking up the phone
28:47going like hey it doesn't have to be I'm
28:50back to you on what I promise it gave me
28:51I just had coffee with a reporter and
28:53they're really interested in X or you
28:56know your competition seems to be all
28:57over right like you know so just sharing
29:00Intel back and forth because you need
29:02what you you need to communicate enough
29:04so that you're in a groove so they were
29:06like talking to your kids like you need
29:09to be talking basically you need to be
29:12in some communication all the time so
29:14that there's a groove because you want
29:16to be top of mind for the agency so that
29:19pay attention to you and for the agency
29:21you want to be top of mind so they
29:22include you and stuff one thing we did
29:24at LinkedIn too is quarterly we would
29:26sit down with the agency and we
29:27basically had like a red yellow green on
29:29the things that we'd agreed they would
29:30do and talk about what was working what
29:33wasn't and that was an opportunity not
29:34for us to just say hey this isn't
29:36working they were able to tell us we
29:38could make this work if we had more of
29:40XY and Z to use that for success exactly
29:42and it felt like you could have a
29:44transparent conversation without hurting
29:45the other person's feelings so I will
29:47add one more thing I actually think that
29:50it is important for the CEO to know at
29:54least some people at the agency and for
29:56them occasionally to staff a meeting and
29:59a lot of people probably disagree with
30:01me on that I totally agree with you
30:02because one is eventually there's a bill
30:05right and like if they don't ever see
30:08you right it's like out of sight out of
30:10mind what am I paying for what is this
30:12and also there's a reason that person is
30:16the CEO and the founder of the company
30:18they are the originator of the idea they
30:21are hopefully the most compelling person
30:24to talk about what it is and where it is
30:26going and again if you want to enable a
30:29bunch of storytelling then you ought to
30:31have the people have access to the
30:33holder of the story and the in-house PR
30:36person needs to give up a little of the
30:37control to allow the agency in sometimes
30:40this is a fraction of the questions I
30:41want to ask which is a founder CEO
30:43should be pretty not too involved and
30:46not uninvolved the thing with you know
30:49if you're the founder of a company
30:50you're trusting those people to
30:52represent your soul to the outside world
30:55which then gets written up in some way
30:58by a neutral third party
31:00hopefully neutral I think that those
31:03or you want to know absolutely yeah I do
31:05too and I think a lot of CEOs don't have
31:08the patience because they again have
31:09this mind size on outsource it isn't the
31:11whole point of me paying for all this I
31:13don't to deal with it you're taking care
31:14etc but you're saying that they are it's
31:17like sales you to put the CEO in front
31:19of the account yeah I mean look if you
31:21don't want to deal with PR then don't
31:24bother hiring an agency a normal
31:26reporter completely reasonable reporter
31:29will expect to see and meet and talk to
31:31the CEO some more on the mechanic side
31:33tell me we were talking about the RFPs
31:35or the proposals and getting all these
31:37and whether you do it or not you clearly
31:38may have multiple people you're
31:40considering as potential agencies how do
31:42you vet them and know that they're the
31:44right one for you I think the best
31:46agency referrals come from reporters so
31:49they'll come in and they'll pitch and
31:50you'll say wow that team was amazing
31:52great ideas but to get to the real heart
31:55of who they are as media relations
31:57experts as you call reporters you have
31:58relationships with and say what do you
32:00think of so-and-so at such-and-such
32:01agency I love you for saying that
32:03because I will tell you so many people
32:06when I say are you referencing them with
32:08reporters I'm like oh good idea duh
32:10that's their customer so referencing
32:13them for sure and then other clients
32:14either clients that have turned out you
32:16get a lot of feedback that way yes or
32:17current clients too who are probably
32:19relatively happy what if a problem is on
32:21your side as a company like what if the
32:23turnovers on your side and you're the
32:24reason the agency is not doing well like
32:26how do you sort of tease apart like the
32:28truth and the reality that does even
32:29matter it's excellent because many
32:31companies don't even ask themselves that
32:32question so they'll call and they'll go
32:35like we're unhappy with our PR firm and
32:37then you start digging it's like why
32:40well they're just not executing like
32:42what's gotten like and you just try to
32:43diagnose like okay so do they know what
32:46to do are you giving them information or
32:48they part you know and something I
32:51always said was like you know if you're
32:52a good client they're they have a chance
32:54if you're not a good client then they
32:57don't even have a chance that's why I
32:58like that report card thing because yes
33:00you can easily say look you're not
33:01executing on this and they consider you
33:03well you didn't give me a cue
33:05exactly you use that review to basically
33:08talk about what you as a company could
33:09be doing better and you're absolutely
33:10right it's usually two-sided it's very
33:13infrequently just the agency it's just
33:15much easier to blame the Aged right also
33:17my favorite is like new CMO comes in
33:19first thing they do is do an agency
33:21review happens all the time but like I
33:24think it's just so much smarter to take
33:26some time and go like okay what's
33:27actually going on here so that's about
33:29diagnosing the success of it how do you
33:31know it's successful it's working that
33:33your partnership this is not the
33:35measurement question because I know
33:36we've talked about a lot and there's not
33:37a clear-cut answer how about telling
33:39selling people internally what if you
33:40the person who's managing the agency
33:42knows it's working but your CFO who
33:44holds like the purse controller doesn't
33:47agree or how do you make that case
33:49internally well you obviously try to
33:52explain and educate like what it is and
33:55what they're supposed to do and then at
33:57the end of the day it comes down to do
33:58you have a mandate I think it's good to
34:01include everybody in the process and in
34:03the updates give have them see and
34:05engage with the agency and do all of
34:07those things right but at the end of the
34:09day to me it is a little binary you
34:12either have a mandate to figure out how
34:14to make your function successful within
34:15a certain budget parameter or you don't
34:18and it's making sure - you can't be
34:21assured that a CFO saw the big story in
34:23The Chronicle this morning you actually
34:25do need to do some promotion of the work
34:26that the agency and the team do PR
34:28attract internally basically exactly you
34:29can't just expect everyone's gonna fall
34:31into your story right or absolutely saw
34:33it so you actually have to do a little
34:34promotion internally so we talked about
34:37some major inflection points in the
34:38company what about going public so you
34:41talked about Margit earlier about the
34:42importance of having PR milestones in
34:45place before you go public so Shannon
34:46you've taken a couple of companies
34:47public what's some special advice you
34:49have for those thinking about that
34:51particular piece so a financial comms
34:53agency is super super helpful in the
34:55lead up to your first earnings call so
34:57there's the actual IPO piece which I
34:59think a lot of people think is much
35:00trickier than it really is
35:01the day of is that very busy crazy day
35:04but it's not rocket science necessarily
35:06I think getting an agency to help write
35:09a script and get the CEO and CFO to
35:11really be on the same page about the
35:13story and practice their own tracking
35:15day know your first earnings call post
35:17IPO so I think that I
35:19pío has this misnomer that it's like
35:20super challenging and tricky and yeah
35:23there's some complexity to it but what's
35:25really hard as your first earnings call
35:27as a public company and so that's where
35:29I would optimize for getting an agency
35:31in to really help figure out are these
35:32two on the same page what is our story
35:35where are we and where are the gaps and
35:38does that person report in to an
35:40investor relations function what if that
35:42it depends I've seen Investor Relations
35:44report into the CFO and the comms person
35:48reports sometimes to the CEO or CMO and
35:51market of all the startups you've seen
35:52what would you say is the best reporting
35:54structure for where an agency and the
35:56comms person should kind of report into
35:59is there any variations on that so I am
36:01a proponent of having the PR person
36:03report to the CEO it can report in to
36:06the CMO but it's just in oftentimes so
36:10if the CMO is a quant person I think
36:13definitely PR should not report in to
36:15the CMO it's just a different animal if
36:17the CMO is a brand story type of person
36:21it can certainly work regardless of the
36:24who does your review the PR person needs
36:27to have access to the CEO whenever they
36:31and then that layer in between whoever
36:33it is cannot be upset when the PR person
36:36goes direct to the CEO it doesn't
36:38necessarily loop into them so they have
36:39to have everyone's got to be okay with
36:42the fact that I may not report to the
36:44CEO but I have direct access and I don't
36:45need to bring you in every single time I
36:47talk to him or her son that the CEO is
36:49the one responsible for setting that
36:50precedent and culture that that all
36:51that's all these pieces are okay it's
36:53telling right when they refuse when a
36:56CEO refuses to do that the caliber of
36:59talent they can get just drops 10
37:02notches and it shows too that they may
37:04not value the function as much as we
37:06would like them to okay you guys have
37:08given us a lot of food for thought in
37:09terms of how to concretely manage an
37:10agency to think about strategically what
37:12are the things that you wish you could
37:14tell founders I'm like hit them over the
37:15head with every day that you're I want
37:17these guys to know this I think founders
37:19have an idea that you call a reporter
37:21and go hey can you write this story it
37:23does not work that way and I wish people
37:26were a little more thoughtful about the
37:28function the coms function and actually
37:31how strategic it needs to be and how
37:33thought out it needs to be before you
37:34take a story to an important reporter
37:37it's not easy I was gonna argue almost
37:40the flip of that which is seems like
37:42there's a new breed of founders who sort
37:44of are in this internet native world of
37:46blogging as everything go direct you
37:49don't need any middlemen and looming at
37:50all the middlemen you can do that but
37:53you will never be as credible as an
37:57independent source of information and
38:00you may also not have the eyeballs that
38:03that you can get when wired writes a
38:06story and then it gets shared on social
38:08channels worse let's say you're
38:12established you've done fine on your own
38:13things are great well what are something
38:16goes sideways you have no relationships
38:18you have no trust you have no benefit of
38:21the doubt all you have is people like
38:24hear all of your claims and adoration
38:27and all of a sudden you have to do a
38:29product recall wouldn't you like to have
38:31some relationships in place where at
38:33least you can explain yourself yeah I
38:35think so it's a perfect place in a bank
38:37to that's great any other final common
38:39myths misconceptions parting I would
38:41just say you know as much to take care
38:44as you take with your product and the
38:47hiring of your first 10 engineers and
38:49like you know whose money you take right
38:52take as much care to decide like you are
38:55they going to take this function
38:56seriously and then actually do it and
38:59learn it because the people who are
39:00there to help you or actually don't
39:02bother because spending $2 with a
39:04half-hearted commitment is a complete
39:06waste and don't be afraid to admit when
39:09you don't know something related to PR
39:10hopefully that's the point of this
39:12podcast Thank You Shannon and Margit for
39:14joining the ACMG podcast
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