00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6nz podcast
00:03I am sonal and today I'm here with Adam
00:06grant who is a Wharton professor and a
00:09New York Times columnist who covers the
00:11topics of work and psychology and he has
00:14a new book out originals how non
00:16conformist moved the world and we
00:18thought it'd be really interesting to
00:19talk to Adam about this because there's
00:21a lot of overlap between nonconformist
00:22and entrepreneurs welcome Adam thank you
00:25the first thing I want to start with is
00:27how you actually define a nonconformist
00:30because I think there's a whole spectrum
00:31and I use spectrum in both the
00:33psychological sense and just a
00:35descriptive sense how do you know
00:36someone's a nonconformist and that like
00:38a good rebel versus the bad rebel like
00:40someone who's actually detrimental to
00:41society when I think about nonconformist
00:43I'm thinking about people who don't just
00:45reject the status quo for the sake of
00:47being different or for disagreeing but
00:50actually care about making things better
00:51for other people so I think about you
00:54know nonconformity as being you could
00:56think about you know creative rebels who
00:58say look you know there's a standard way
01:00of doing things that isn't right and I
01:02think I can improve it or you could
01:04think about being a moral rebel and say
01:06you know there's a rule a law a policy
01:08that doesn't make sense and that's
01:09hurting a particular group and I want to
01:12try to do something about that so the
01:13constructive form of non-conformism
01:15essentially exactly one funny anecdote
01:18that you mentioned which made me laugh
01:19out loud is that a person's choice of
01:21browser indicates where they fit so if
01:24you're like a chrome user for example or
01:26a Firefox Mozilla user you're more
01:28likely to be along those lines and not
01:31it feels kind of obvious in hindsight
01:33but it's a really funny thing to come
01:35across like how did you sort of come up
01:36with that well I wish I could take
01:38credit for it I was sitting at a
01:39conference one day and an economist
01:40Michael has been presented the study
01:42showing that he could predict her job
01:44performance and how long you stay in
01:46your job just by knowing what browser
01:47you use and a lot of people don't like
01:50the results of this study obviously and
01:51if you don't know what browser you use
01:53you should check Ask Jeeves right away
01:56basically what he found was Chrome and
01:58Firefox users were an average getting in
02:01call center jobs to customer
02:03satisfaction rates in 90 days that took
02:06Internet Explorer and Safari users 120
02:08days to reach and the Chrome and Firefox
02:10users also stuck around 15 percent
02:12longer and their jobs
02:14first instinct for me was this has got
02:16to be a technical advantage right the
02:18people who are more computer savvy are
02:19the ones who are using Chrome and
02:21Firefox especially what I would think
02:22too but Mike ran the data and there was
02:24no difference in typing speed or
02:26computer knowledge between the different
02:28browser groups and what I eventually
02:30realized was it's about how you get the
02:32browser because if you're an Internet
02:34Explorer or Safari user that was came
02:36pre-installed with your computer right
02:38there the default and you just accepted
02:40the status quo was handed to you whereas
02:43if you wanted Chrome or Firefox you have
02:44to take a tiny bit of initiative and
02:46upgrade or figure out you know maybe
02:48there's something different out there
02:50let me try it out and that turns out to
02:52be a signal of being the kind of person
02:53who doesn't just conform and accept the
02:55defaults that are given you what are
02:57some of the other pattern into territory
02:58sticks I think by the way
02:59procrastination was super interesting to
03:01me I think we've all procrastinated at
03:02some point in our lives and I will say
03:05though I'm pretty much the opposite of a
03:07procrastinator there's a term for me I'm
03:09a procrastinator so I'm one of those
03:11people who when I have a presentation
03:13given six months I will wake up tomorrow
03:15morning feeling this tremendous sense of
03:17urgency to get it done now so that I
03:20don't wait till the last minute and it's
03:21not hanging over my head and as I
03:24studied originals I found that many of
03:25them resisted that temptation and fused
03:28procrastination productively so look at
03:30Leonardo da Vinci for example who spent
03:32roughly 15 years trying to finish up the
03:35Last Supper and kept putting it off and
03:37working on these little optics
03:39experiments and he felt like he was
03:41spinning his wheels and wrote in his
03:42notebook over and over again tell me if
03:44anything ever was done but ultimately
03:48those diversions led him to make these
03:50discoveries in how to display light that
03:52dramatically improved his painting and
03:54made him the Renaissance man and there's
03:57a lot of research coming out suggesting
03:58that when we procrastinate we give
04:00ourselves more time to incubate ideas we
04:02do more divergent thinking we're less
04:04likely to be stuck in linear structured
04:06patterns of thought and that can be
04:08useful if you want to come up with new
04:09ideas I think I would probably nuance if
04:12I the description of procrastination
04:13then a little bit because I think either
04:15do it or you don't and I think what
04:17you're actually saying is actually that
04:18there's something more in between
04:19because when I think of how I
04:20procrastinate as well you know it's not
04:23like you're not working on it you're
04:24working out in the back of your head or
04:25you're putting on the back burner or
04:28ideas that are related to X topic and
04:29then when they suddenly kind of come
04:31together you're like okay now is the
04:32time to actually put it together on
04:34paper and and this is the right time to
04:36put it out there's another form of not
04:38procrastinating where you just stick
04:39your head in the sand and you just
04:40completely avoid it like the kind of
04:41member doing like in high school
04:43you don't even show up I feel like
04:44there's different flavors to those kinds
04:46of procrastination or what you're just
04:47yeah I think productive procrastination
04:50is intentionally delaying the start or
04:52finish of a task to make sure you have
04:54all the creative ideas that you might
04:56develop at your disposal and that's very
04:59different from just not engaging with
05:01the task at all right so I had a PhD
05:03student G Haitian who studied this and
05:05she found that there was a curvilinear
05:07relationship between how often you
05:09procrastinate and how creative your
05:11supervisors rate you in multiple
05:12organizations so if you put things off
05:14till the very last minute you're screwed
05:16and you just have to rush forward with
05:17the easiest ideas but there's a sweet
05:20spot where you put things off a little
05:21bit you're delaying but you are kind of
05:24doing some unconscious thoughts some
05:25incubating and that allows you then to
05:27come forward with more interesting ideas
05:29and more unusual possibilities because
05:31the first idea is that you generate are
05:33usually the most conventional and
05:34obvious right exactly and if you just
05:36march forward with those and you're
05:37limiting your field of vision but it is
05:40key that you are sort of processing the
05:42task so one of G his experiments
05:44randomly assigned people to
05:46procrastinate before developing business
05:48plan ideas by playing minesweeper and
05:50they were after doing that 28% more
05:53creative than people who jumped right
05:55into the task minesweepers awesome but
05:57it's not the reason more creative the
06:00effect only held if they were told about
06:01the task before they played minesweeper
06:03so that you know while they're working
06:05in the games they're kind of thinking
06:06about different business ideas and
06:08that's where the creativity came in so
06:11what's interesting about what you're
06:12describing is a type of behavior but in
06:14the real world people have deadlines and
06:16constraints that they have to follow and
06:18things that they have to deal with like
06:20if you're in a company or in school or
06:21you know in just paying your bills on
06:24time how does this sort of behavior play
06:26out in those scenarios like can you be
06:28an original in one aspect of your life
06:29and then suddenly be very punctual about
06:31the psychological traits we have it's
06:33not like you get to pick and choose what
06:34arenas of your life you get to be a
06:36certain way yeah I think it's hard to be
06:39an original without being flexible
06:41in fact that might be the most central
06:42defining characteristic of original
06:44people is that they're willing to bring
06:46different ways of solving problems to
06:49different situations so of course there
06:51are some tasks actually take any task
06:54where creativity is not important if
06:56you're paying bills you don't have to
06:59come up with novel solutions and in fact
07:00if you do the IRS might come calling
07:02that's a task where you want to be
07:03structured conscientious focused and you
07:06know sort of punch it in as quickly and
07:08efficiently as possible I think that
07:10we're we're originals end up
07:12procrastinating is when they know
07:14they're working on a hard problem one of
07:16my favorite examples of this is Aaron
07:17Sorkin the screenwriter who's known for
07:19the West Wing and the Steve Jobs movie
07:21and he was interviewed once by Katie
07:25you know you you basically you drive
07:26your staff crazy because sometimes
07:28you're literally about to shoot a scene
07:30and there's still no script like how do
07:32you put up with this procrastinating and
07:34and Sorkin said you call it
07:36procrastinating I call it thinking it's
07:38like an interesting way of reframing
07:39that I know you were talking about Aaron
07:41Sorkin writing the script for that movie
07:43but I do think it's interesting to talk
07:44about Steve Jobs as an example here
07:46because and I definitely don't want to
07:47be one of those people who elevates to
07:50this cult of Steve Jobs all the time I
07:51think we need to be both critical and
07:53mindful of what he did and didn't do but
07:55one thing that struck me when I was
07:58reading his biography the one that
07:59Walter Isaacson wrote was this concept
08:01of his reality distortion field and I
08:03think it's very closely tied like you
08:04have to have some sort of flexibility of
08:06reality a view of reality in order to to
08:09distort it for a better world and be
08:11able to envision a better possibility
08:13but then there were times when it became
08:15just straight-up delusion how do people
08:17navigate that balance and what are your
08:19views on how this sort of thing played
08:20out with an example like Steve Jobs it's
08:22a really interesting question
08:23I feel like Steve Jobs there's a
08:25Rorschach test for you you you put them
08:27out there and then whatever response you
08:30hear is much more revealing of the
08:32person answering than it is of Steve
08:34Jobs oh that's so interesting that's
08:36actually a really good point so what
08:37does it mean that that was my reaction I
08:39don't know okay so I'll put my biases on
08:45the table here I think that for me
08:48successful originals are not distorting
08:52reality as much as they are
08:54choosing when to present different
08:56realities my favorite example of this is
08:59Meredith Perry so Meredith has this
09:03amazing startup called you beam which is
09:06doing wireless power right full
09:07disclosure we actually investors in that
09:09when when Meredith came up with the idea
09:10for wireless power she went to some
09:13physicists and engineers and they all
09:14told her it was impossible and she was
09:16insane and she was in this sort of
09:18chicken-and-egg catch-22 scenario where
09:21she needed to build a prototype to prove
09:23it but she couldn't get anyone to work
09:25for her because they all told her she
09:26was out of her mind and at some point
09:28she realized that instead of going to
09:31engineers and saying you know I'm trying
09:33to build wireless power can you create
09:35this kind of transducer for me that I
09:37think will help me convert vibrations in
09:39the air into energy and having them say
09:42no that can't be done
09:44she started hiding her purpose and
09:47telling the engineers she was trying to
09:49recruit about the means that she wanted
09:51but not the ends so instead of saying
09:53you know I'm trying to build wireless
09:54power you know I need a transducer that
09:57will help me convert vibrations in the
09:58air into energy she just said do you
10:02think you could build me a transducer
10:03with these properties and all of a
10:05sudden instead of knitted hell no the
10:08answer was yeah I could probably figure
10:11out a mate way to make that work and I
10:13think this is such a good example of
10:15timing which Rhett realities who present
10:18as opposed to distorting them it's not
10:20like she's lying to them she's not
10:21saying you know I'm trying to build a
10:23transducer in order to tie my shoes
10:27she's just choosing to reveal this
10:29information after she has more than
10:31technology available and people will be
10:33much more likely to believe her and I
10:35think this is to me a fascinating
10:37strategy for originals because we're
10:39always told especially if you watch
10:41simon Sinek stead talk start with why I
10:43love that TED talk I do too and I think
10:45the point is largely right that you have
10:48to in order to motivate people to come
10:51on board with most ideas and visions you
10:53have to explain your purpose but if you
10:55have a really original idea that's
10:58terrible advice because you're why
11:00sounds insane to other people and so if
11:03if you're Meredith or if you're Steve
11:04Jobs for that matter sometimes the how
11:07is much more believable than the why and
11:09I think that that's a skill that we
11:11could all work on right knowing when to
11:13say this is my ultimate goal and when to
11:15say you know I'm kind of working toward
11:17this mid-level objective do you think
11:18you could help me with that the most
11:20fascinating aspect of the anecdote you
11:22just shared to me is that she
11:25essentially had a very original idea and
11:28had to take a very non original approach
11:31she had to use people's non originality
11:34in order to get them to deliver what she
11:36needed incremental e to get her to the
11:38next goal so it's almost like you have
11:40this interesting interplay in an
11:41organization between the people who have
11:44this characteristic some people who
11:45don't and then how you sort of interact
11:46with each other and how you switch
11:48contacts based on that bingo and we see
11:51this with lots of great entrepreneurs
11:52this is exactly what Elan musk did with
11:54SpaceX he didn't recruit his team by
11:57saying let's go to Mars he said let's
12:01see if we can get a rocket into orbit
12:02and then back and once they saw that was
12:05possible it's a little bit more
12:07acceptable to start talking about
12:09whether we can colonize another planet
12:11but don't you want people who believe in
12:13your vision because when you say like
12:15Elon Musk recruited those some of those
12:16folks I mean okay clearly he needed
12:18people who aren't just so pie in the sky
12:20that they actually need to build what
12:21he's envisioning but at the same time I
12:23feel like one of the defining
12:25characteristics of startups and
12:26sometimes four really good leaders of
12:28startups is this collective of people
12:30who believe in a similar vision and not
12:32to sound like cult-like or like it's a
12:33mission but more like it's a way to
12:35really align people around like you're
12:37doing something like I I know I would
12:39not want to work for someplace where I
12:40didn't believe in the product for
12:41example of course I think though that
12:43the people that I would want to hire and
12:45that I think Elon wants to hire or
12:49skeptical optimists let's break that
12:51down a little bit yes so the optimism
12:52part is you believe that the future can
12:55be better than the president in the past
12:56and when you consider possibilities
13:00you're willing to have hope and see
13:02upsides the skepticism is saying I'm not
13:05going to be convinced by every Pollyanna
13:07idea that somebody throws at me I want
13:09to see the hard evidence you know show
13:11me that this is doable and so you know I
13:14think actually recruiting people who
13:15think that they could do for a fraction
13:18of NASA's budget something that NASA's
13:21able to do those are people who are
13:23willing to believe in a vision that buys
13:24you the optimism but I don't necessarily
13:26want to recruit people who believe on
13:28day one that Mars is a realistic
13:30destination in the next decade or two I
13:31love that you said that phrase of
13:33skeptical optimism Chris Anderson the
13:35former editor in chief of Wired used to
13:37always kind of describe our mission when
13:39we were at Wired as being informed
13:41optimists like the bar for a story
13:44getting through was like it's not only
13:46optimistic about the future of
13:47technology but that there's a level that
13:50isn't informed it's not just conspiracy
13:51theory I love that and I have to say by
13:53the way though Adam I think you're not
13:55the only one doing this but a lot of
13:56people use Pollyanna as this way of
13:58saying pollyannaish ideas like these
13:59sort of fluffy idealistic feel-good
14:02rose-colored glasses view of the world
14:04and in reality Pollyanna is actually a
14:06story about overcoming hardship the
14:08reality of the movie is and I hope I'm
14:10not giving spoilers because that movie
14:11is like 50 years old but is that she has
14:13a very optimistic view of the world but
14:15then she gets paralyzed and she has to
14:17then overcome her own fear of her own
14:19limitations in order to hopefully
14:22overcome that disease the movie is very
14:25much about the importance of a certain
14:27kind of optimism for overcoming tragedy
14:29I think that obviously the modern use of
14:31the turf has evolved to sort of focus on
14:34your glasses are so rose-colored that
14:36you might be a little bit unrealistic or
14:39too easily duped like you're gullible
14:41and that's totally fair
14:42I'm just like putting out my own
14:44personal agenda don't defend the movie
14:45let's talk a little bit more about some
14:47of the more counterintuitive
14:48characteristics what are some of the
14:50surprising things that define originals
14:52based on your research in this book I
14:54think one of the things that that really
14:56caught me off-guard is that they tend to
14:59have less expertise than a lot of their
15:00peers ooh interesting yeah so there's
15:03this curvilinear relationship between
15:04expertise and originality where when
15:07you're trying to come up with new ideas
15:08you obviously need to know a field or a
15:10domain well enough to have an
15:12understanding of what's possible and
15:13what's been done in the past right so
15:15Einstein couldn't have come up with his
15:16theory of relativity without knowing
15:18something about physics beforehand and
15:19studying Newton but it's not a
15:21coincidence that he was relatively new
15:23to the field because the longer you
15:25learn a particular domain of knowledge
15:27and the more you internalize it the
15:29easier it is to become entrenched where
15:31you basically take for granted
15:33assumptions that need to get questioned
15:34and what you see with a lot of
15:36successful originals is they've this
15:37great combination of breadth and depth
15:38where yes they know the domain
15:41reasonably well but they've also
15:43immersed themselves and I see ideas
15:45outside that domain to make sure that
15:46they're seeing things from a fresh
15:48perspective one of the ways you see this
15:50is actually if you look at Nobel
15:51prize-winning scientists one of the
15:53things that differentiates them from
15:54their peers is they're much more likely
15:56to have artistic hobbies so on average
15:58Nobel Prize winners are twice as likely
16:00to play a musical instrument they're
16:02seven times as likely to paint and do
16:04other kinds of art they're twelve times
16:06as likely to write creative fiction
16:08poetry and they are 22 times as likely
16:12to act dance or perform magic oh my god
16:16that's actually really funny yeah as a
16:18former magician I love that step but I
16:20think Aaron levy the CEO box is actually
16:22a magician - that is right and I think
16:26that you know obviously this is not all
16:28causal the the same curiosity that draws
16:30people to be creative also tends to
16:33pique their interests in these kinds of
16:34artistic hobbies mm-hmm but sometimes
16:36engagement with these hobbies helps with
16:39the discovery of original ideas Einstein
16:41said that the theory of relativity was a
16:44musical thought and that it came to him
16:46because of all the time he spent playing
16:47the violin and Galileo one of his
16:50greatest discoveries was being able to
16:52spot in mountains on the moon for the
16:54first time what's remarkable about
16:55Galileo is he was looking through his
16:57telescope at an image that other
16:58astronomers had seen but he was the only
17:01one who recognized that the shading he
17:03was observing was mountains and the
17:05reason for that was he had specialized
17:07in a drawing technique that used a very
17:09similar kind of shading and so he knew
17:11that that was how you represent a
17:13mountain and in that case if he had not
17:14been an artist he never would have made
17:16that discovery so that's a case where
17:17the art actually influenced how they
17:19viewed certain things I mean you're
17:21describing two things one is this sort
17:22of co-occurrence of this creativity in a
17:25field or experience in a field but
17:27you're also describing something where
17:29you're talking about the exact right
17:31amount of experience and expertise and
17:33you'd mention it as being curvilinear
17:34and at that's the second time you've
17:36mentioned the curvilinear as an example
17:38so it sounds like there's always like
17:39the sweet spot where there's not too
17:41much not too little but there's just
17:42this one just right amount how do you
17:44know what that sweet spot is like where
17:46do you sort of fall off into
17:48one side of the curve or not I think
17:50that part is much more art than science
17:51as much as it pains me as social
17:54sciences to admit it I wrote a paper
17:57about this a couple years ago with Barry
17:58Schwartz where we argued that everything
18:01in life is an inverted u and that you
18:03know if you take any strength or virtue
18:05or positive experience you can find too
18:08much of a good thing where you know like
18:10okay if you're if you're too confident
18:12we get narcissism if you're too generous
18:15we get altruistic self-sacrifice and you
18:18could play this out for any trait that
18:20you probably see in in a positive light
18:22I think the only thing that we really
18:24know at this stage about how to find the
18:26sweet spot is that good thing satiate
18:28and bad things escalate so the further
18:31that you move down the positive end of
18:33something the more likely the costs are
18:36to start out weighing the benefits and I
18:38think you can only usually see that by
18:40looking at the results so you know in
18:42the case of expertise right the question
18:44is okay when you start to generate ideas
18:46are you finding yourself trapped by what
18:49you already know in the fields as you're
18:51you know evaluating different kinds of
18:53ideas do you consistently gravitate
18:56toward what's already accepted and
18:57proven it's really funny that you guys
18:59try to overfitting the u-shaped curve to
19:01all these different things as well I
19:02think that there's a gender or racial
19:05background or other background effect
19:07that can play out here differently I'm
19:09thinking of cases where a lot of women
19:13well sometimes under play their
19:15expertise because you know I've seen a
19:17lot of my former male colleagues like
19:19there would be experts in things that
19:20they necessarily weren't but they would
19:22have the confidence to say that they
19:23were and to me that wasn't a sign of
19:25confidence I'd actually get really
19:26irritated when people said like be
19:27confident and say you're an expert in
19:29that and I'd be like I'm not gonna
19:30freaking claim to be an expert in
19:31something I'm not like I don't think
19:32that's confidence I think that's just
19:34being full of crap I think it's really
19:36interesting because I think some of
19:37these things also play out where there's
19:39an interaction effect between people's
19:40background whether it's gender race or
19:43privilege or other things that have
19:45influenced how they grow up like how did
19:47you see that play out in thinking about
19:48originals yeah it's interesting even how
19:50you set up that comment right because a
19:52man would have said it's a fundamental
19:55fact as opposed to here's what I fake
19:57good I've kind of noticed oh god you're
19:59right it's funny because when I hear
20:01myself on the podcast
20:02I'm always like I really got to take out
20:04some of those caveat ik words I use like
20:06kind of maybe what do you think vocal
20:08fry' whatever all the stuff that I think
20:10I tend to do sometimes and I hear it I
20:12cringe other times I'm like it it's
20:14Who I am like take it you know what I
20:16mean like anyway you're totally right
20:18well so it's that step further yeah
20:20let's talk about it do you really want
20:22to take that out I would say maybe not
20:24so Zach termal at Stanford has these
20:26studies showing that experts are
20:29believed more when they express
20:30uncertainty I like that because I
20:32actually think that is what a true
20:34expert is it's hubris to claim to be an
20:36expert in something you're not at the
20:38same time I will say coming full circle
20:40to your point I have observed that the
20:43people who actually go out and start
20:45companies and this takes us to
20:46entrepreneurs are people who have such
20:49belief in an alternative view of the
20:51world even if they're not experts in X Y
20:53or Z that they're the ones who go out
20:55and do it and I admire that I do think
20:57it takes a certain amount of knowing
21:00that you can do that so like what's the
21:03difference is that a confidence thing is
21:05that a experience thing is that a
21:07originals mindset I mean where do we
21:10grow out like what's making an
21:11entrepreneur tick there there's a
21:13there's a huge debate about you know how
21:15much does confidence really drive
21:17success and like everything else it's
21:19curvilinear it's so if you have too
21:21little confidence you never act and if
21:23you have too much confidence then you
21:25end up getting complacent and missing
21:29out on on threats and opportunities that
21:31you underestimate I think that where I
21:35would come down on this is Susan Cain is
21:38fond of saying that there's zero
21:39correlation between who's the best
21:41talker and who has the best ideas and
21:42that's true empirically the sad thing is
21:44though a lot of us take confidence as a
21:47signal of competence and I think we need
21:49to stop doing that I think if we stop
21:51doing that we'll see many more women and
21:53minorities rise into leadership
21:55positions because we'll see that
21:57oftentimes they are better prepared but
22:00communicating in such a way that didn't
22:02always signal you know the the
22:04competence behind the idea right I would
22:06also say that the the self-esteem
22:08movement has been disastrous for
22:10entrepreneurs in the sense that like
22:12becoming a successful entrepreneur is
22:14not about thinking that you're
22:16it's about believing that you know
22:18somebody else could do this maybe I
22:20could do and I think that confidence
22:23should come as a consequence of
22:24confidence right so instead of saying
22:27well I need to build my confidence and
22:28then I'll be successful no let's let's
22:31develop grit let's have a growth mindset
22:33let's work as hard as we can to achieve
22:35success and then confidence will be the
22:37natural product of that when you know
22:39something really well or you feel very
22:41passionate about it feels true to you
22:43the way I feel say personally about
22:44editing you feel incredibly confident in
22:46that because it is a consequence of
22:48competence you recorded Susan Cain's
22:50work and she's the author of introverts
22:51that they're not necessarily being a
22:53correlation between how one communicates
22:55and that confidence and the competence I
22:57think it's interesting though because
22:59when it comes to leadership as you know
23:01and I've seen this with entrepreneurs as
23:03well you are motivating people by being
23:05able to communicate your vision as well
23:07and it has implications for hiring for
23:09everything else so it actually really
23:11does matter I mean I don't think we can
23:13easily dismiss that out of hand either
23:14let's let's be careful not to over rate
23:17confidence but but yeah it plays a role
23:21I think for most people grounded
23:23confidence comes from accomplishments
23:25not the other way around
23:26are there any other takeaways like I'm
23:27actually curious not just for
23:28entrepreneurship but like for education
23:31for raising kids like you had an article
23:33in The New York Times this past weekend
23:35that talked about like mistakes a lot of
23:37parents commonly make like you know over
23:39programming their kids what are some of
23:40the implications of your research one of
23:43the things that surprised me the most is
23:44when you study originals and look back
23:47at their childhood histories you see
23:49that their parents often focused on
23:52creating a really strong moral compass
23:54so they're these brilliant studies of
23:57creative architects where you look at
23:59the people who are nominated
24:00consistently by the most respected
24:03people in their field is truly original
24:05and then you compare them to their peers
24:07who are technically skilled but haven't
24:08necessarily done anything creative and
24:10the the original study is there were
24:13extensive interviews not only with the
24:16architects but their family members lots
24:18of observations assessments one of the
24:20things that came out was that the
24:22parents of the creative architects
24:23tended to focus less on rules and more
24:26on values but that they gave their
24:28children a lot of freedom to
24:30actually determine their own values and
24:31what happened was the architects then
24:33developed their own values which you
24:36know we're grounded in a moral framework
24:37that when other people said your idea
24:39was ridiculous they were much more
24:41comfortable standing their ground and
24:42saying well this is Who I am and I'm
24:45they also you know in addition to just
24:48being comfortable with nonconformity
24:49they were much more likely to be
24:51concerned about you know what is my
24:52contribution of the world right when
24:54when I'm constantly asked to think about
24:56one of the consequences of my actions
24:57for other people I want to leave the
24:59world better than I found it and I think
25:01we could probably all do a better job I
25:03know I can as a parent you know really
25:05having that conversation about you know
25:08here are some broad values that we think
25:09matter how do you want to live by those
25:11are those things you think communicated
25:13verbally or through modeling because one
25:14thing that comes to mind when you
25:15describe that is that probably explains
25:17a lot of immigrant children's success in
25:20the first second and third generations I
25:21know the effect tends to disappear after
25:22the third generation in past studies but
25:24I wonder if with immigrants it's kind of
25:27like this epoch that you get because you
25:29just watch it I mean I would speak
25:31blandly for every ethnicity out there
25:33but a lot of immigrant groups you're not
25:35having those conversations with your
25:36parents in any kind of articulated way
25:37like it's not a it's a very non verbal
25:39type of culture in that way and so you
25:41can actually learn those things just by
25:43watching them work hard and try to
25:44contribute something to the world yeah
25:46modeling effects are often stronger than
25:48than conversation effects in in part
25:50because role models when you see the
25:53behavior it it teaches you how to do it
25:56it tends to raise your expectations of
25:58what's possible conversations don't
26:00always have that impact they also
26:02sometimes you know create this reverse
26:04psychology reaction of don't tell me
26:06what to do I will now do the opposite
26:07exactly you also mention role models the
26:10existence of because one thing that
26:11comes to mind as well and I'm thinking
26:13of classic developmental psychology
26:15studies of resilience and orphan
26:17children were orphans in previous World
26:19Wars and one of the consistent findings
26:21that came through over and over again is
26:23no matter what else those children did
26:25not have one of the greatest predictors
26:26of resilience was having a person they
26:29could look to as a mentor or as a role
26:31model how does that play out with taking
26:33it a step further like beyond survival
26:35to becoming a productive non conformist
26:37I think that parents don't necessarily
26:39have to be role models I think that
26:43needs a role model in order to have some
26:46kind of vision for what it looks like to
26:48make a mark but we can find role models
26:50in some pretty unexpected places
26:53there's some classic research looking at
26:55patent rates and innovation trajectories
26:58of entire economies mm-hmm and my
27:00favorite finding out of this body of
27:02work is that you can predict the spikes
27:06and Falls in US patent rates by coding
27:10themes of original accomplishment in
27:11children's books really yeah so if you
27:14look at the children's literature of a
27:16particular era when that literature
27:18starts to include examples of people
27:21accomplishing things and succeeding in
27:23ways that are new and innovative patent
27:25rates actually spiked 20 to 40 years
27:27later was the era where doctors like
27:29published Cat in the Hat like super high
27:30on patents like I mean those kids were
27:32fully defying their parents looked like
27:34the cat mouths yeah I think there's
27:35there's a case to be made there and more
27:37recently oh the places you'll go I think
27:40was the most popular children's book of
27:42the 90s which was all about choosing
27:43your own path and what's fascinating
27:45about this is in part it's just a
27:47reflection of the culture right so you
27:50know when innovation becomes more
27:51important we tend to write and buy and
27:53read children's books that are
27:55innovative but there's I think a story
27:58to be told about how these books
28:01actually shape originals what you will
28:03find is that if you talk to some of the
28:06great originals of our time they are
28:08constantly saying their favorite books
28:10we're stories of actually other kids who
28:13were you know inventing things or
28:15accomplishing things that were
28:16impossible previously if you ask Peter
28:19Thiel and Elon Musk to name their
28:20favorite childhood books they both pick
28:22Lord of the Rings Jeff Bezos and Sheryl
28:24Sandberg boasted a wrinkle in time yeah
28:28we all did right and that what is that
28:30story about is about a young girl
28:31bending the laws of physics and
28:33traveling through time yes like if that
28:35doesn't get you thinking about making an
28:37original contribution of the world I
28:38don't know what does well they're both
28:40sci-fi books they all fall in the sci-fi
28:41genre which is interesting in and of
28:43itself they do and it's not a
28:44coincidence by the way that you can
28:46trace a lot of modern inventions to you
28:49know the writings of Jules Verne and the
28:50technology that we watched on Star Trek
28:52and you know I think you're a very real
28:54way these fictional role models
28:56children the freedom to define their own
28:58Nicias and imagine doing things that
29:01that don't exist or aren't currently
29:04I really think Harry Potter's gonna have
29:05this impact I probably put my money on
29:08JK Rowling as the most influential
29:10original life because Harry Potter sold
29:13more books than any other series except
29:15maybe the Bible so it's reached a lot of
29:17people you have kids saving the world
29:21and inventing spells in ways that spark
29:23lots of creative thinking and there's
29:26also academic research now showing that
29:28after kids read Harry Potter they become
29:31less prejudiced so they learned not to
29:33stereotype people in the way that
29:34wizards look down on muggles you know
29:37that's a pretty good trifecta right
29:38reaching hundreds of millions of people
29:40getting them to think in original ways
29:42and making sure that they don't have
29:44these strong in-group out-group
29:45boundaries I'm fascinated by that I mean
29:48it's one of my all-time favorite series
29:50so I'm personally incredibly motivated
29:52by Harry Potter but to hear that it
29:53could have that effect on people is
29:55incredible and to your point it does
29:57indicate how culture does shape these
29:59sort of thinking that comes out in each
30:00generation what's more fascinating to me
30:02is the recent uptick in the last five to
30:05ten years of young adult literature that
30:07is really strong female characters you
30:10know like obvious examples include The
30:12Hunger Games with Katniss Everdeen the
30:14divergent series by Veronica Roth and
30:17there's like countless others I mean I
30:18read like one a month they're just
30:20amazing I'm glad I'm not alone no and
30:22you're not alone and what's actually
30:24refreshing is when we were growing up do
30:26you remember even having that many
30:27female strong characters out there
30:28because I don't remember that I used to
30:30read stuff like I mean I remember
30:31reading like David Eddings like a
30:33belgariad or like other things that
30:35there were male characters there weren't
30:36like strong female characters or if
30:38there were they were like adjuncts to
30:39the male character instead of the main
30:41character yeah as I think about it like
30:43the the female protagonists or heroes
30:45like a my childhood where Nancy Drew
30:48Wonder Woman and maybe penny from
30:51Inspector Gadget exactly and they're
30:53they're great strong women but it's very
30:55different than today where you have
30:56Katniss Everdeen like murdering people
30:58for survival in The Hunger Games arena I
31:01mean they're strong hard characters and
31:04I think that's incredible one other
31:06interesting thing though is I think
31:07we're only talking about books as an
31:08influence on literature I think it's
31:10to mention other forms of narrative like
31:13TV shows things like Game of Thrones
31:14where there's really no narrative arc
31:16it's this endless story that keeps
31:18developing or even like video games not
31:20all video games have a fixed content arc
31:23if they're not a content based video
31:25game so I think that'll be interesting
31:26to see how that plays out and what
31:28you're describing here because there
31:29might not be as many examples in the
31:30future of that sort of thing I think so
31:32too I'd love to see the evidence so far
31:34we've been talking about a lot of
31:35interesting themes and research and
31:38anecdotes that are really centered on
31:40outliers as cases or as individuals one
31:44thing I'm interested in particularly
31:46because you're a professor at Wharton
31:47and you studied management science and
31:49things connected to this how does this
31:50all play out systematically like in the
31:52organization for example because we all
31:55live like we probably spend more of our
31:56day inside a firm than we do in our own
31:59families and so I'm really interested in
32:01hearing how these dynamics play out in
32:02in groups and in culturally across
32:05organizations as sort of containers of
32:06that sort of culture part of originals
32:09is about how individuals can champion
32:10new ideas and then how parents can try
32:14to nurture kids to think differently but
32:17I think it's just as important if not
32:19more so for us to understand how leaders
32:21build cultures that welcome original
32:23thoughts and that fight groupthink and
32:24there are couple things that most
32:26leaders do wrong if you look at the data
32:28first thing is hiring on cultural fits
32:32so one of my favorite studies looks at
32:34over 200 Silicon Valley startups and
32:36tracks them before and after the dot-com
32:38bust I like where this is going there's
32:40gonna be interesting yeah this is this
32:42is fun so you see that there are three
32:45prototypical ways that founders hire
32:48when they're looking at talent some
32:50higher on skills so they're looking for
32:52people who have a certain set of
32:53competencies now some hire on potential
32:55so it doesn't matter what you know today
32:57and how much do we think we you can
32:59learn and then a third group hire on
33:01cultural fit do you do you share values
33:03around here and when you track the
33:06founders firms what you see is that the
33:08founders who hire on cultural fit are
33:10less likely to see their startups fail
33:13and they're more likely to make it to
33:14IPO hmm then after IPO their firms grow
33:18at a much slower rate then what does
33:21that higher on scalar potential so
33:24helps you grow and takeoff and then it
33:27causes you to stagnate and maybe
33:28increases your risk of failure why is
33:31that the basic explanation is that
33:33cultural fit is a great way to get
33:36groupthink you have these founders who
33:38are incredibly original at the outset
33:39and then they hire a bunch of people who
33:41see the world exactly the same way they
33:43do and they end up cloning themselves
33:46and getting homogeneity of thought
33:47instead of diversity so I think the
33:49solution to this is at some point as
33:52your organization grows and you need to
33:53start questioning the very values that
33:55made you successful in the first place
33:57you want to stop hiring on cultural fit
33:59and start hiring on cultural
34:00contribution so what's the difference
34:02there because I mean I think people
34:03would come I would complete that yes a
34:05cultural fit is basically who are we and
34:07how do we bring in people who are just
34:08like that cultural contribution is
34:11asking what's missing from the culture
34:12mm-hm and how can we bring that to the
34:15table so trying to figure out who's
34:16going to enrich the culture and add
34:18diversity of thought to it as opposed to
34:20just replicating it of course you can
34:22also overcome some of these problems if
34:23diversity is one of your core values
34:25right I agree I don't think you can just
34:27hack it on and say you know it's like a
34:29sidebar silo thing it has to be start
34:31from the leadership has to start from
34:32the top like you have to believe in
34:33something you have to believe whatever
34:35values leaders believe in is essentially
34:36what the company is gonna believe in it
34:37yeah and I think you know you can you
34:39can screen on this in really interesting
34:40ways so one of my favorite interview
34:42questions is to ask people tell me
34:44what's wrong with our interview process
34:46and how you would improve it or you know
34:48more broadly based on what you know
34:49about the culture so far if you were in
34:51charge here what are the three biggest
34:52changes that you would make people
34:54aren't willing to give that kind of
34:55constructive for criticism or bring in
34:57dissenting opinions in the hiring
34:58process I'm a little worried about
35:00whether they're going to do that moving
35:02forward one thing I'm really fascinated
35:04in because you brought this up a number
35:05of times in the book is power
35:06differentials and that's power
35:08differentials between people like
35:09speaking truth to power people have less
35:11powers people who aren't in management
35:13but who are contributing original
35:15thinking even power differentials with
35:17people who are not represented like
35:18whether you're underrepresented in the
35:20organization how does those play out in
35:23this in this scenario unfortunately the
35:25evidence suggests that lots of people
35:28who come from non-dominant groups are
35:30less likely to get heard when they speak
35:31up so Sheryl Sandberg and I wrote an
35:33op-ed last year called speaking well
35:35female yeah where we covered a lot of
35:38when a woman in a man make the same
35:40point the man gets a big pat on the back
35:42and people start to rally around him and
35:44the woman is either not heard or
35:47punished for being too aggressive and
35:49you see the the same effect with
35:51different kinds of minority groups
35:53because this is not fundamentally a
35:56gender effect it's a power effect right
35:58so the groups that are perceived as you
36:01know as not occupying high status
36:03positions in society get stereotypes as
36:05you know sort of needing to find their
36:08place and you know they're often
36:11perceived as as stepping out of bounds
36:14when they're just trying to make
36:15suggestions or get their opinion it's
36:16hard you know I think from an
36:18organizational standpoint we need to be
36:20especially careful to welcome dissenting
36:22voices when they come from people who
36:23don't look like everyone else and you
36:25don't come from the most common
36:27backgrounds in the organization but I
36:29think from an individual perspective one
36:32of the opportunities to overcome these
36:34biases is to make sure that your earn
36:36status before you exercise power that's
36:38a good good way of putting it
36:39once once you're recognized as an expert
36:42and authority as you know having made
36:44valuable contributions to the
36:45organization it's much easier for people
36:47to look at your suggestion and say yeah
36:49you know like you've you've given a lot
36:51here so you have license to deviate from
36:53from the majority's preferences or you
36:56know you've shown that you really care
36:57about the group and you're committed to
36:58making the team successful and now we're
37:01gonna interpret your idea as you know an
37:03effort to help us get better as opposed
37:05to a threat or a challenge of course
37:07that does by the way assume a very
37:08meritocratic organization because there
37:10are plenty of cases where there's a very
37:12nepotistic flavor of earning status like
37:15you happen to work with someone before
37:16and you believe in them or you're just
37:18friends and buddies and you guys party
37:20together or you know what I mean like
37:22not everything necessarily plays out in
37:23a meritocratic way there is that effect
37:26as well I think so true and so sad yeah
37:29it is you know I think one of the other
37:31opportunities for leaders on this is
37:33when when making decisions almost every
37:36leader I've ever worked with has made a
37:38point of assigning a devil's advocate
37:40and said you know look we need to make
37:42sure we have you know divergent thinking
37:43in the room we want to hear all the
37:45dissenting opinion so you know I'm gonna
37:47ask a few people to represent the
37:49opposite the set thing is if
37:52look at 40 years of research by
37:53Charlaine Nemeth at Berkeley she shows
37:55that Telus advocates rarely work you
37:58know when you're given the devil's
37:59advocate role you don't argue as
38:01forcefully as you should you're like all
38:04right so I'm gonna take the opposite
38:05perspective okay now let me go right
38:08back to what I really or you can have
38:09something like the New York Times where
38:10you have like devil's advocate I mean I
38:12don't you I know you work there so you
38:13may or may not be able to comment on
38:14this but where you have like someone
38:15like Margaret Sullavan who plays through
38:17a public editor and I love reading her
38:18stuff it's fascinating but even though
38:20it's public and it's a criticism of the
38:22New York Times it's it's like a siloed
38:25thing like do people actually then do
38:27anything with those takeaways I have no
38:29idea but I you know the evidence would
38:31suggest that a lot of people don't
38:33because the other side of this is just
38:34as you don't take the role seriously
38:36enough your audience doesn't either
38:37they're like alright so we know you're
38:40just playing the role so we're just
38:43gonna let you give your lip service to
38:44it and stick with what we already
38:45believed so what do you do what you do
38:49is instead of assigning a devil's
38:50advocate you unearth the devil's
38:52advocate it's the only authentic dissent
38:53that that has the best chance of working
38:56that means you need to find people who
38:58genuinely disagree and invite them into
38:59the conversation and guess what that's
39:01more likely to be a minority group
39:03members right who come from a different
39:05perspective and a different background
39:07and that yeah this is this is one of the
39:10things is easy to talk about and hard to
39:11do which is you actually have to know
39:13what people think right you have to go
39:15out to meet the silent minority and say
39:18look you know we really value your input
39:20let's find out what your reaction is to
39:22this idea that's actually good way of
39:23putting it there's so much more we could
39:25talk about but I think people just go
39:27ahead read your book originals how non
39:28conformist move the world which is out
39:30now and thank you for joining the a 6nc
39:32podcast thank you for having
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