00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast Brooklyn
00:03edition we're here at the world
00:04headquarters of genius comm with Tom
00:07lemon and Alam Sakura co-founders two
00:12days ago the gang of genius released the
00:15genius isms and it's a list of rules
00:20concepts feelings to live by about
00:26command slash you know it's more about
00:28like just Commandments Commandments I
00:31think seventeen Commandments it's sort
00:35of like an aspirational self definition
00:39how we work sort of some slogans and
00:43some ideas you can refer to when you're
00:46working some things that tend to come up
00:47a lot over the years and we've been at
00:49this working together for five years and
00:50just a lot of stuff keeps coming up and
00:52as you're hiring and building a new
00:54company you have a new person and it's
00:56kind of like a region in all the sort of
00:59means you're used to dealing with and so
01:02we kind of tried to write it all down it
01:05stuff kind of doesn't happen so directly
01:06but Dan Gilbert when I first met him he
01:08was the sort of topic that he was
01:11fascinated by was just how do you
01:13communicate who you are to a growing
01:14company when you have 20 people or
01:17thirty people are a thousand people how
01:19do you communicate like the key ideas
01:21and do it in a way that sort of scales
01:23and is efficient and makes everybody
01:25work well together and so he told us
01:27that he told me that and I thought this
01:28was interesting he's saying some really
01:29interesting stuff he runs this huge
01:30multi-faceted organization and it turns
01:33out there's plenty of complexity with 25
01:35people that you have to do this type of
01:37thing too right and in some way I mean
01:39now you fend off even more complexity
01:41later is that the hope at least
01:43yeah that's though it's also fun to have
01:45stuff to say that people are gonna you
01:47know you gotta make the individual isms
01:49the individual Commandments marketable
01:52not all these are great we got to
01:54improve them but it should fun that
01:55stuff that you can say you know some
01:56shibboleths yeah we really like run into
01:58the spike and that's to get doing one of
02:01them is run into the spike yeah so run
02:04into the spike is basically the idea
02:06that whenever you're trying to decide
02:07to do you should do the thing you don't
02:09want to do so there's always when you're
02:11making a decision you're like well it's
02:13this or that and like I know what I want
02:16to do and so I'm gonna decide but just
02:18always do the thing you don't want to do
02:19so whether you think you don't wanna do
02:21is go exercise or the thing you want to
02:24do is go meditate or the thing you don't
02:25want to do is work on a hard project and
02:27you know think you do want to do is
02:28probably check your email or you know
02:30look at Twitter or check genius don't do
02:35that don't go to a website to use calm
02:39yeah run away from you use a calm and
02:41into the spike it's just a way of
02:44getting yourself to do things that are
02:45hard you know it's it's it's a there are
02:49a lot of things that you can do that are
02:52or let me put it this way like when I
02:54find myself procrastinating I'm rarely
02:56doing something where you know I'm
02:58rarely like on Facebook for like two
03:00hours but like what I will do to
03:02procrastinate is do maybe I'll go
03:04through my inbox for like a long time
03:05and like I trick myself into thinking
03:07that's not procrastinating because it's
03:08something that's like positive for the
03:10thing but it's really ultimately a waste
03:12of time relish what I should be doing so
03:14it's just run of the spike it's kind of
03:15one of the ways of getting towards like
03:17just what is the really hard thing you
03:18should be doing don't take the easy way
03:20out and do the procrastination thing
03:21it's also a thing where we believe that
03:22for anything you do that's valuable you
03:24kind of have to pay the toll of like
03:26getting there like there's bridge to get
03:28to doing the thing that's valuable and
03:30you have to walk across the bridge and
03:31there's someone saying like pay the toll
03:32in pain or whatever and so we believe in
03:35paying that toll and just embracing it
03:37you know like there's the feeling of
03:38running into the spike which is not
03:39always pleasant but if you kind of make
03:41it a value that's explicit people kind
03:43of get into it and then you have the
03:44pleasure of doing something that this is
03:47ABS always be suffering you know that
03:49was one of the original the original
03:50name for this was notes don't always be
03:52suffering but running this bike I think
03:53is still good so some of these kind of
03:56sound like what they are others I'm
03:57completely baffled by take the roast out
04:01of the oven this is an interesting one
04:04the name here is actually Jack from Dan
04:05Gilbert just because we started sort of
04:07repeating this and found it to be like
04:09sticky for whatever reason but the idea
04:10is you know you can put all this work
04:13into getting this whole roast ready and
04:16it's in the oven and all you have to do
04:17is take it out of the oven to serve the
04:18meal and so just take it out of the oven
04:20you know it seems like a simple thing
04:21finish the job but like in real life
04:23it's often harder to take it out of the
04:25oven and finish the job and so you know
04:27what will happen is you'll get to 80%
04:29done on a project and now like whoa like
04:32getting to the point where I could
04:33actually put this out in the world is
04:35actually like it seems harder than I
04:36thought it was and so you know I bet
04:39that that's both reason to like push
04:41yourself through and finish and don't
04:42give up and like actually make the world
04:43different and also be careful about what
04:45you embark upon because it's probably
04:47gonna be harder than you think and you
04:48don't want to get far down the road with
04:50a project or something you want to do
04:51and then quit and that's a bad thing to
04:53do so avoid that there are people who
04:55work extremely hard and do a lot of
04:57really high-quality work but have a sort
04:59of fear of finishing of putting
05:02themselves out there and this is to make
05:05you feel like you have to well I mean
05:07your world in the world of you know
05:09software essentially you have no choice
05:12but to keep taking those roast out of
05:13the oven - yeah and part of the roast of
05:15the oven thing is connected to another
05:16is a may be the earliest ISM in some
05:19sense one that I was banding about on
05:21the tech side for you know a couple
05:23years actually called worse is better
05:24which is just this idea one way to get
05:26the roast out of the oven is just take
05:28it out even if you think it is not done
05:30even if you think it's gonna be
05:31embarrassing you mean you think it's you
05:33know just definitely not you know - take
05:35it out put it out there in the world you
05:36know the worst the worst thing is the
05:38best thing like the worst the project is
05:40the better it is to get it out there and
05:41then really perfect it in public so they
05:43send needs to be perfected just worse is
05:45better and take the roast day they
05:46haven't kind of combined to say just
05:48like you know your perfectionism your
05:51desire to make things perfect is good it
05:53comes from a good place but ultimately
05:54to make progress you you can't be a
05:56slave to that you've got to just put
05:58stuff out there and see whatever there
05:59are artists who you know take 10 years
06:0215 years between projects between an
06:04album or between their next film or
06:06whatever and then there are artists who
06:07put out thousands of songs or whatever
06:09and we think that in the art of trying
06:13a consumer facing Internet company gotta
06:16be more like Lil B and less like was a
06:19good artist who takes like 20 years like
06:21D'Angelo or Michelangelo yeah yeah you
06:25know I think and there's another aspect
06:27of it which is just don't try to plan
06:29everything out in advance you know like
06:30one sort of almost ISM is don't be like
06:32AB or CA you know am i pronouncing that
06:34right so you know the corset the
06:36Courvoisier thank you you know I I saw
06:39it read before pronounced that's
06:40actually better that I can't say I write
06:41poppy yeah you know obviously and so he
06:45you know his thing was like let's plan
06:47the city down to the doorknob you know
06:49what's planned everything out in advance
06:51and and the perfectionist impose the
06:53anti worse is better impulse the anti
06:54take the roast at the oven impulses I've
06:56got this grand plan for this thing and
06:58I'm going to execute that plan and
06:59release it it's like you don't have a
07:00plan you know it's gotta be this organic
07:02thing it's gotta be more organic and so
07:04you know I just want to recommend this
07:06this book that Elan and mock but
07:09actually recommend it to me so I'm just
07:10totally jacking from them that I I came
07:12to love it more than they ever will
07:14it's called seeing like a state by Jim
07:16Scott and basically sort of is a long
07:18argument against sort of making a grand
07:21plan and then trying to execute it and
07:24it's just it's gonna go awry so don't
07:26make a grand plan do an incremental
07:27thing right don't be looking for CA
07:29anyone listening this or you find
07:31yourself literally being like Morrissey
07:32I stopped the story is basically about
07:34how even well-intentioned scare quotes I
07:38guess we're on the radio you can tell
07:39but like well-intentioned government
07:41schemes to improve the human condition
07:43large-scale projects have caused you
07:47know and told human suffering unintended
07:49human suffering and no one's gonna be
07:50occasion in Brasilia except I can I
07:52wanna go feel it to my face this is a
07:56big one like you know Tom and I we were
07:59kind of on this tip in the early days
08:01because just we found that the
08:03co-founder relationship was just so
08:05fraught with feelings and
08:08you know then if you don't talk about
08:11things you don't hammer out the subtext
08:13if you don't check in if you don't admit
08:14vulnerability you're you're screwed you
08:17know you can't really run a business if
08:18it's loaded with or do it for a creative
08:21project with someone if it's just
08:22totally loaded with unspoken emotional
08:24stuff and you know we hire a bunch of
08:28people a bunch of really talented people
08:30people with strong personalities people
08:32who feel things very deeply and that
08:34stuff needs to get communicated and
08:36often it's not clear if you're an
08:37employee in a company like what's
08:38appropriate what's not appropriate to
08:40say to other people and so we just
08:42believe that not only should you if
08:44you're feeling something and it's making
08:46you unhappy and easy or whatever you
08:48should say it to someone but in
08:49particular you should say to the person
08:51who it's relevant to users like relevant
08:54to your situations if I'm feeling
08:55something about let's just say max who
08:59works here oh and great guy Greg and so
09:08you know it's better for me to go just
09:10talk to max and like sort of run into
09:11that spike rather than to go talk to Tom
09:13about how Max is upsetting me because
09:15and to have Tom soothe me or everything
09:16max is just blissfully unaware of the
09:19whole thing so it's about just going to
09:20the people suffering that initial
09:22discomfort realizing it's not as bad as
09:24you think it's gonna be and in fact it's
09:25actually really healthy you probably
09:26feel a lot better at another sort of
09:28sorry another side of this is about
09:30feedback you know so like just say what
09:32you actually think about something
09:33whether it's someone's you know some
09:35work that someone did whether it's what
09:37the company's doing you know like think
09:40about like if you have food on your face
09:42like your friend tells you that your
09:44food on your face your nan friend
09:46doesn't tell you and the reason is your
09:48friends down to suffer a and
09:50uncomfortable conversation to help you
09:52and your nan friend just doesn't want
09:54themselves to feel uncomfortable and so
09:56you know if someone is food on their
09:57face metaphorically or literally like
09:59suffer the uncomfortable moment and tell
10:01them what's what's real you know it's
10:03also just just the whole it's the feel
10:05to my face is part of another thing
10:07which I think just people under
10:09business is just how big of a part the
10:12emotional side of things play so part of
10:14feel it to my face it's not just like
10:16you know part of it is the feedback
10:17thing but like that in some sense it's
10:19kind of obvious because it's like we're
10:20here working on something we're doing
10:22this work and if I think the work is bad
10:24I probably should overcome the
10:26awkwardness and say something but the
10:27emotional side if I just feel like do we
10:29have like an awkward moment there nice
10:31it wasn't like the emotional side like I
10:34think people and I definitely did this
10:35especially was coming out of school
10:36people just think that like ah the way
10:37the world of adults work is people will
10:39go to the offices and kind of check
10:41their emotions at the door and they're
10:42professionals whatever it's like that's
10:44not true the emotional side of the world
10:46is just very very real
10:47you know and in the middle of people no
10:50matter how well you know the people it
10:52may be even more so as you know the
10:54people better but like Tom and I through
10:56all our experience and like however
10:57close we are still have the capacity to
11:00make each other feel very bad even by
11:02accident you know just by being who we
11:05are and having communication patterns
11:06and so like you know we'll have some
11:08conversation about something and might
11:09just feel a little bit off and neither
11:10of us can diagnose it or whatever but I
11:12will go away and I'll feel bad until we
11:15resolve it and somebody's got to break
11:16through and say the thing which is like
11:17it's something weird with our
11:18relationship and then we talk about
11:20what's really going on and what sort of
11:21unrelated things happened and then you
11:24know feel much better so this is sort of
11:26relates to one that I really like you
11:27write it like a write like a human mmm
11:30why was that even necessary although I
11:33believe it is and believe me I hope I
11:35wish everyone did yeah you know the
11:36thinking behind this was like I was kind
11:38of saying like we were kind of trying to
11:40say like writing is important and here
11:42is the most important thing about
11:43writing from a business perspective in
11:45my opinion and it's like be a good
11:48writer and do well written
11:49communications is definitely important
11:51and like if I could just tell you one
11:53thing for the top level thing it's just
11:54write like a human right like you would
11:56communicate if you're just talking to
11:57someone trust your natural voice trust
12:00who you are don't think you have to come
12:01in to a professional or business context
12:04and change who you are to be someone
12:06else because that's what's professional
12:07it's kind of related to the emotional
12:08side of things like I'm gonna check my
12:10emotions at the door and I'm going to
12:12write like I'm not a human like I have
12:13no emotions I'm just gonna
12:15professional hats of people the world
12:16right and the answer the actual reality
12:18is just trust your normal voice and that
12:20will make you seem more appealing and
12:22that will be just more fun and better
12:24and so it's just right like you would
12:26say it don't say you know don't hesitate
12:29to ask give any questions or whatever
12:33we'll figure it out yeah we'll figure it
12:38out as this is I got to give a shout out
12:40to Tom Tom's really like taught me this
12:42over the years like in terms of crisis
12:44psychology even if it's not a huge
12:47crisis but in huge crises as well as
12:48just always have the attitude of we'll
12:51figure it out things can appear things
12:53will appear if you're doing any startup
12:55things will appear incredibly gloomy no
12:57matter how good your circumstances are
12:59I'm sure that in the sort of meteoric
13:01rise of Facebook or Google or whatever
13:03they felt at times like they were
13:10and you know you have to have you can't
13:14overreact you can't do stupid things out
13:17of like an emotional impulse and you
13:20have to look at crises as opportunities
13:22so you got to be sort of clinical when
13:24stuff's going on sort of check your
13:25anger though or compartmentalize your
13:27anger and say okay like I'm confident
13:30we've been in these situations before we
13:33will figure it out we'll work our way
13:34out of this hole and even beyond that
13:37what are the big opportunities that are
13:39here now because we're in this crisis
13:41that might not otherwise have been there
13:42and can we seize those opportunities and
13:44so it's just a basic like having a base
13:47level of optimism even when things feel
13:49really bad and not sort of taking out
13:53your pessimism on other people and
13:55trying to get credit because you're
13:57predicting doom and you might be right
13:58right right yeah what I like about will
14:00figure it out is it's just among what I
14:02was saying like just it's something
14:04we're just the name of it I think it's
14:06good just start saying we'll figure it
14:07out like if someone if you're getting a
14:09thing and looks New England just say
14:11we'll figure it out and that will like
14:12that's what you're supposed to say and
14:13that situation that make you feel a
14:14little better that's your approach does
14:16it give people here a little bit more
14:18freedom to just try stuff too and like
14:21maybe go in the wrong direction and or
14:25cause a problem for that matter yeah you
14:28know I think the I think that's
14:29something probably we should add to that
14:31like I think you know one part and we'll
14:34figure it out is don't get mad at
14:36someone for you know don't get upset
14:38with someone for causing a problem you
14:40know like they're gonna be problems and
14:41fault is like who knows like what like
14:44some person maybe literally cause it but
14:45who knows what led to it the point is
14:47we're gonna have problems don't get set
14:48with someone for solving a problem be
14:50solution-oriented maybe you should get
14:52upset with someone if they aren't down
14:53to help solve it but like you know
14:55problems are gonna happen we will figure
14:57it out don't lose your head and that
14:59also means don't get upset of people for
15:01doing bad stuff accidentally the chaos
15:04will not be minimized this is a this is
15:10a obviously a Gil scott-heron reference
15:13that should be in the annotation but you
15:15know this is kind of related to the book
15:18Abbasi a thing in a sense like anything
15:21is messy building anything great is
15:23messy and so if you look at like you
15:25know an art studio or an operating room
15:27or you know my favorite example just
15:29from seeing like the state seeing like a
15:30state is like an army on parade
15:32versus an army in battle and you think
15:35if you were new to army as you might
15:36think god an army on parade that's what
15:38I want it looks like this art project
15:40it's so in line everyone's orderly but
15:42they're not doing what they're supposed
15:43to do in that context like the army
15:45doing what it's supposed to do is in
15:46battle and from the outside it looks
15:48like a total mess and it feels like a
15:49total mess from the inside but you know
15:51you can you know accomplish things that
15:53way because what we're trying to do with
15:54the Army's trying to do is maximize
15:55results maximize output not minimize
15:58chaos or maximize comfort I think a lot
16:00of the time people kind of feel like why
16:02would you do this you know why would you
16:04do this to me this sucks for me to be to
16:07have a reorganization of how the
16:09company's management works now I work
16:10for someone else I thought I work for
16:12you and it's kind of like well that is
16:14definitely your feelings in this case
16:16are like a consideration but like the
16:18chaos will not be minimized means like
16:21we're always gonna be changing we're
16:23always gonna be doing what's best for
16:24the company it doesn't mean that too
16:26much change can't be disruptive to
16:27actual effectiveness and productivity
16:28like you still have to like think about
16:30that but we are not just going to make
16:32decisions to minimize rough change
16:37reactions like we are going to make the
16:39best decisions and everyone's got to
16:41kind of get down at the fact that things
16:42change a lot or else this probably isn't
16:44a place for you and you should be
16:45working in a bigger company yeah and
16:46it's not it's not a function of 25
16:48people or 50 people or a thousand people
16:50even like I think that's just what
16:52you're gonna do mm-hmm well it's just
16:54the converse if you're doing the thing
16:55that makes you feel comfortable you know
16:56there's the Mario Andretti quote I guess
16:59like if you're if you feel like you
17:01could control your car you're going too
17:03slow or it's just like if you are
17:05feeling comfortable you are not moving
17:07fast enough you're not pushing hard
17:08enough and it's kind of a corny likely
17:10share this point but I think it's very
17:10true and so you know if you work here
17:13you shouldn't expect to feel comfortable
17:15but also whatever you're doing in life
17:16if you're feeling comfortable you might
17:18want to try like moving faster pushing
17:20harder don't fill up on bread yeah
17:23other food-related one of the other food
17:26is in ones I take the roast out of the
17:28oven and never eat gluten don't fill
17:32that funny one cred like another way of
17:34saying this is just like don't work on
17:37stupid that seems like it might be
17:40good right there it's it's so there's so
17:43many small projects you can do that seem
17:45like they're valuable you can have so
17:46many pieces of bread before dinner
17:48but you've got to work on big sort of
17:51impactful opportunities as much as you
17:54can and there's lots of small projects
17:55that you have to work on sometimes but
17:57just if you could fill your whole work
18:00life just doing small stuff and then you
18:03just you're gonna get fat I think the
18:05the sort of challenge is when you're
18:08thinking about worse is better you're
18:09thinking about doing small things you
18:10want a reality which is you don't to
18:12release some huge you know the software
18:14context some huge feature in whole cloth
18:16and so the idea of worse is better is do
18:17it in small increments but you want to
18:19make sure your small increments are
18:20leading towards a brand vision and
18:21you're not just doing a bunch of random
18:23small stuff because it's very easy to do
18:25a bunch of random small stuff there's
18:26plenty and stuff like if you look at
18:28someone's gonna write you an email and
18:29say hey like I work at blah blah and
18:32maybe we could collaborate at Global and
18:33maybe you should do that but you
18:34probably shouldn't do it just because
18:35you happen to see in your inbox can be
18:36part of your plan in some way are you
18:39guys experts in anything it says here be
18:40skeptical of experts I mean you people
18:44would think I'm an expert in a lot of
18:45stuff or some stuff and then they would
18:47ask me questions and they should
18:48definitely be skeptical of my advice
18:49like I'm an expert in SEO I'm an expert
18:52in hypnotherapy like well I don't know
18:54what else but one of my favorite is
18:56about anus annotations in Ilan's hypno
19:00Elaan wrote a brilliant essay about a
19:03meditation retreat he took and one of
19:06the reasons for taking the treat was
19:08some anxiety and it was like in the text
19:10it was a it was like some anxiety around
19:13my like my iTunes playlist and if you
19:15click the annotation you see like here
19:16was the playlist in question and the top
19:18thing is how it'd be a super confident
19:20hypnotherapist and so here's like it was
19:23like dela Jose like how to stop being
19:26lazy like how to get rid of like such a
19:28such a diction or that addiction and
19:30then it's just like how to be a super
19:31competent hypnotherapist me well my
19:33hypnotherapy clients are reading that
19:34though who is this guy and so it's like
19:36you go in do they have no therapy thing
19:38but beforehand you know the
19:39hypnotherapist is is is playing pop that
19:42to pump himself up because he's nervous
19:43about the thing and that's part of it
19:46the other side of it is just an
19:47experience that that we had like
19:48particularly in Y Combinator which was
19:50just we get to Y Combinator and you know
19:53frankly I personally at least was
19:54totally starstruck you know like Paul
19:55Graham in particular but everyone else
19:57around there it was like this was like
19:58my dream you know and these were my
20:00idols and not only that but they gave so
20:02much access so you know Paul Graham you
20:04can talk to him you can talk to Sam
20:06Altman you can talk to everyone on staff
20:08and they can hook you up with anyone
20:09else to it so you go and you say wow
20:10with all this access I'm gonna be able
20:12to find people who are gonna help me
20:13solve my hard problems and so you know
20:16part of that is true talking to people
20:18inspires you and and and can give you
20:20good advice and can help but whenever I
20:21had on whenever we had a hard problem
20:23and we went into a meeting with a lawyer
20:24or an investor or YC partner or some
20:27kind of expert thinking this is the
20:28meeting or someone's gonna tell us like
20:29what to do and it's so great that we
20:31have access to this it just doesn't
20:32happen and the reason is that a the
20:35idiosyncrasies of your situation are
20:37more relevant than you think
20:39like you can't truly describe your whole
20:41situation in like an hour
20:42or something like it's you know a lot
20:44more use and credited stuff than you
20:45think which is also related to look
20:47across the air by the way like the
20:48Christians like Morsi is there's so much
20:49idiosyncratic on-the-ground social life
20:51going on in cities that you can't just
20:53take the expert of anyway so there's a
20:55lot of stuff you know and the expert
20:56doesn't care as much as you probably and
20:58so you need to combine those two things
21:00your superior knowledge in your superior
21:01amount of caring and figured out
21:03yourself and not look for the mythical
21:04expert who's gonna get you out of your
21:05heart problem so you guys have these you
21:08know from top to bottom is there sort of
21:11ascending or descending order or they
21:13all equally important
21:15I just depend on the situation I think
21:18it's good there's no I don't think
21:19there's any real implicit order here
21:22I think it'll emerge like which ones get
21:23used the most but they're sort of just
21:25an unequal CeMAT smattering oh it's a
21:27sea salt mortar I think we'll figure it
21:30out I definitely wanted to put at the
21:32end because of like statement of hope
21:33and I think it's not not your job is a
21:35good one too to start with and people
21:38look another way this is all up on
21:39juniors comm and people can come in and
21:41annotator oh yeah yeah put some
21:43annotations up there especially if you
21:44disagree with something you know clap at
21:48us you know deal it to our face yeah I
21:55just think that's like a overall sort of
21:56positive message to say I mean it's kind
21:59of phrased and somewhat negatively but
22:01just the double neck it's a double
22:03negative so I think it works out to
22:07something good basically and so you know
22:09it's just a statement about like you
22:10know look like and this is related to
22:13like only hire the best people only hire
22:15a players is like everyone we bring in
22:16here you know is going to be responsible
22:19for either the success or failure of the
22:21company that's how we genuinely feel and
22:22you know that doesn't mean that everyone
22:24should be thinking about every problem
22:25every second but no one should ever be
22:27in a situation where they are thinking
22:28okay I am doing my job
22:30right and that's it like if the company
22:33failed I would still say to myself I did
22:35my job great and you know this is not
22:37how it is at bigger you know companies
22:40like a big company a lot of inertia
22:41around what's going on like you can just
22:44do your job and that's fine but here
22:45everyone's got to be leader ever it's
22:46got to be looking out for the actual
22:48success of the thing and that means you
22:50know one thing that means is trusting
22:52your gut about what's good and bad you
22:54know part of you know it's it's not just
22:56a lazy thing of saying like oh I don't
22:59want to do this it's kind of like I'll
23:01leave that to the to the expert of doing
23:02that like I think something's weird and
23:04this part of the company but I'm just
23:06not gonna say anything it's like no say
23:07something speak up like don't say I
23:08don't think you're not qualified to
23:09comment pick Oh pick up the rock and see
23:11the creepy-crawlies underneath and tell
23:14people about and try to fix the problems
23:15like you know before I had this in here
23:17before we put this in here like one
23:19thing and I still am tempted to tell us
23:21say this when new people join us just
23:22like everything you think that's
23:26everything you think that's messed up is
23:28actually messed up like there's a 10 so
23:30you come a new place you should send me
23:31myself you think oh it's me like I'm not
23:32seeing the the real deal like it I must
23:35not know what's up know if you think
23:36it's messed up it is messed up speak up
23:38in doing this did because it took a lot
23:42of sort of obviously thought and and
23:44focus to kind of figure out what you
23:47guys are all about you probably knew it
23:48sort of intuitively but to put it down
23:50to write it down did it sort of teach
23:52you guys any anything about this company
23:58well it's taught us that our impulse is
24:01to be very verbose so I got to give
24:03props to a LAN it was much better at
24:05sort of saying saying the truth about
24:08like how many isms you should have
24:10started least I was sort of like in his
24:13in Fantasyland yes are there forty or so
24:16like 27 that's what you know we were
24:18having a good natured board meeting and
24:20the sort of slogan of as we presented
24:23our 32 isms or whatever to them was sort
24:27of like more in more engineers fewer
24:29isms I think was the the basic like
24:32rallying cry but that was a good round
24:33so any engineers out there like we need
24:35you to work here so we can have more
24:37isms right that's yeah yeah yes from the
25:05outside by genius calm but also on the
25:07inside within media properties what's
25:10that an attempt to do and I just want to
25:13sort of get your opinion I like how we
25:14can have better conversations within the
25:16news flow and it can be entertainment
25:18news whatever but you know within the
25:20flow of information how can we have
25:22better conversations what are you guys
25:23doing to that end there are a bunch of
25:25levels to like what annotation can bring
25:28to news you know I think is most
25:30exciting and most interesting is
25:31bringing real accountability to
25:35you know obviously people can annotate a
25:37primary source and people want to
25:38annotate the State of the Union and have
25:39commentary on it because it's an
25:41interesting primary text but you know
25:42what secondary sources you know if you
25:45look at the Newsweek article about the
25:47Bitcoin founder for example that was a
25:50case where there's this article it's in
25:52this major publication and there's some
25:54criticism flying around the internet on
25:56Twitter and elsewhere but if you can go
25:58directly to the article and have that
26:00have experts on the subject and a tape
26:03and challenge the journalist claims or
26:05have the subject of a piece oftentimes
26:07there are articles about people and
26:09people get upset because they were
26:11misquoted things we're getting out of
26:13context subjecting a piece the Internet
26:17and this technology allows you to
26:18subject all pieces of journalism to
26:21actual criticism and that criticism can
26:24come from regular people who have
26:26something to say about it or it can come
26:28from subjects of a piece it can come
26:29from experts on a piece the journalist
26:31can respond to criticism on the piece
26:34itself focused on specific aspects of
26:37the piece they're in question so you
26:39structure a conversation around a claim
26:41around the specific real piece of
26:43reporting that's happening and so we
26:46think we're building some tools that
26:47allow these conversations to happen in
26:48interesting ways and surface these
26:50conversations to the right people also
26:52send signals to people who might be
26:53interesting commentators on these
26:54stories and so as we build out our
26:57product which is allowing people to
26:59annotate any website we're not just
27:01stuff on our site we think this is gonna
27:03be a key part of how people read and
27:04write journalism so distinguish then
27:07we have comments or at least we've had
27:10comments you know off and on depending
27:11on whether you've eaten and and watch
27:13but they usually devolve into sort of
27:16kissing matches right then that's the
27:18problem of comments by and large how
27:20does this change that dynamic or or
27:22Canady you think well I think a big part
27:25of it is the sort of community and
27:26editorial structure for what happens on
27:29on our site and what will soon happen on
27:31every site when the platform sort of
27:33gets what is the fabric of the Internet
27:34so you know one big thing that we do on
27:36the site right now is we are trying to
27:38sort of explain what's going on so
27:40whether you're reading a Shakespeare you
27:42know where the 7:00 a.m.
27:43and speech you know mewling and puking
27:46like an infant or whatever like if
27:48you're reading like you know mewling
27:49means or if you're you know listening to
27:51a piece of music you want to know that
27:53means and so we spend a lot of time
27:54developing software and and then social
27:57norms surrounding this community that
27:58you know sort of it's designed to
28:00produce the best possible interpretation
28:03so one person will take a stab at
28:04interpreting a line and another person
28:06will add a suggestion that an editor
28:08will come in and sort of sort of resolve
28:11the the sort of you know the discrepancy
28:14between the suggestion the original
28:15thing and create like a wiki style
28:17document that's that's gonna you know
28:19cover the the good explanation of what's
28:21going on and so you know it's sort of
28:22that type of thing we want to take to
28:24other sites so both literally in the
28:25sense that you should be go to a site
28:26and see a sort of genius editorial board
28:29approved annotation which is we call it
28:31the genius annotation which is sort of
28:32the annotation that we are putting out
28:33there and we are saying like this is the
28:36sort of best impartial not too long
28:39kind of funny annotation explanation of
28:42like what is going on in this claim the
28:44author's making but then the editorial
28:45board also has another function which is
28:47finding and surfacing relevant and other
28:50people's comments so you know for
28:52example like you know as long as saying
28:54like one key example is like the subject
28:55of a piece or someone cited in a piece
28:57so like we want that person to be able
28:59to comment and right now if that person
29:00goes and comments you know on the piece
29:02in the comments below like their
29:03comments it's gonna get lost or maybe if
29:05it's not lost someone will have a
29:06question about is it actually from this
29:07person is this real and so the function
29:10of the community and the software is
29:11basically to find out okay who's
29:12relevant to this how can we bring them
29:14to this piece you know how can we
29:16confirm that they are real and then when
29:18they do annotate how can we make sure
29:19their annotations are visible and noted
29:21as such and so you know that kind of
29:22curatorial aspect combined with this or
29:25the straight editorial function is going
29:27to be a big sorry in general and
29:28comments at the bottom of an article you
29:31don't have any principled organization
29:34that says let's surface the best of the
29:36topic part of what reddit has been how I
29:38read it has been so successful they
29:39simply have a good algorithm for sorting
29:41the top comment out or hacker news it's
29:44like normally you read what is the thing
29:46and the top comment and that thread is
29:48usually fairly interesting underneath
29:50the top comment you know with most
29:52publications don't even do that let
29:57saying something why is it interesting
29:59tying into a specific part of the
30:01article that it's referencing and you
30:03have people sort of manually quoting
30:04things and then commenting on them but
30:06then it's just lost in a wash of a lot
30:07of commentary if you have an editorial
30:10and sort of community infrastructure
30:11that creates interesting comment both
30:15from the sort of crowd perspective and
30:17from an individual perspective and
30:18surfaces that content right there on the
30:20article that makes for a pretty
30:21interesting reading experience alright
30:24that wasn't very lightning but we're
30:25gonna go into the lightning round now
30:26piece of music coming out that you're
30:28excited about dance stage loaf Dave's
30:32loaf is she has a song called try me she
30:36was some hot we good she's a rapper out
30:38she's just arriving and she's gonna be
30:41massive at that love her I also gotta
30:43say like I'm super slow and like lame
30:45basically but I just love the song
30:47lifestyle rich gang and young thug which
30:50is just the classic I really found out
30:52about it because everyone on Twitter was
30:53like that's the song you really need rap
30:55genius for cuz I can't you know I just
30:56don't even because it's really hard to
30:58understand what he's saying but it's
30:59it's a great song and I just I can't get
31:01it out that's not really new I apologize
31:03sneakers high tops or low tops both you
31:07just got impossible to answer it's
31:09insanely complicated both I think Nike
31:13Air Max is probably you know the gold
31:16standard for sneaker but you know I'm
31:18wearing mid tops now and loving every
31:20second of it but it's not bad
31:22I love it Brooklyn getting crowded
31:26having to move yeah we're running away
31:29from the hordes you know we're in
31:30Williamsburg right now but we're moving
31:32to Gowanus Gowanus still a lot of people
31:36there but there's like far fewer so
31:42similar it's coupled watching the only
31:44Whole Foods in Brooklyn so it's not
31:45exactly totally out there but Gowanus is
31:47historically kind of like more of like
31:50what Williamsburg was 25 years ago or
31:52something like that the headline
31:54and the Wall Street Journal I think was
31:56like area known for smelly canal draws
31:58hot startup or something oh there's a
32:01canal there's a pro body in the Gowanus
32:04that's kind of what the Gowanus is known
32:06for well hopefully there'll be no body
32:09stone on the ground you're kept um this
32:12time Tom get on thank you guys very much
32:15that's it okay all right it's good
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