00:00hi everyone we're here today with a very
00:03special a 16 z podcast my name is Tom
00:06Reichert and today we're gonna be
00:08talking with the CEO of open government
00:11and also Michael Kasper Zach who is a
00:14council member of the city of Mountain
00:16View California and the former mayor I'm
00:18a partner here at Andreessen Horowitz
00:20and I co led an investment recently in
00:22open gov so I'm very excited to talk
00:25with you about technology in government
00:26I think the innovations that open gov
00:28and other companies are doing can make a
00:30difference for everyone in our country
00:31and so today we want to talk about some
00:33of those trends and how to work with
00:35government and some of the opportunities
00:38so I I'll first ask each of our guests
00:42here to introduce themselves so Zach
00:43could we start with you and hear a
00:44little bit of yourself and open gov glad
00:46- thanks Tom my personal background I my
00:49first business was when I was 8 years
00:51old back in Maryland I grew up near
00:53government near Washington DC but I I
00:55started in mowing lawns and then went to
00:58study government at at the University of
01:00Maryland later went to law school and
01:02did a master's degree in public
01:03administration before going to Mexico
01:06where I studied corruption in the
01:07Mexican government I later went to
01:10Afghanistan and served as an adviser to
01:12to United States Army generals on the
01:15transparency task force that was set up
01:16by General Petraeus at the IAF
01:19headquarters and and we started open
01:21Govan in the late 2000s after well we
01:24started looking at data visualization in
01:26the late 2000s after we saw two major
01:28trends one is that post recession
01:30government revenues were drying up and
01:33everyone in government and out of
01:34government was wondering hey where's all
01:36the money going how can we see this
01:38better and at the same time there was
01:40the rise in the cloud and in web-based
01:41technologies things like tableau and we
01:43thought the the latter could help the
01:45former and we went and talked with
01:46cities in the Bay Area and the state of
01:50California and said hey give us your
01:51budget data and we can help you
01:53visualize it and analyze it and and
01:56share it with people who who need it
01:58like your your your mayors and
01:59legislators and citizens and they said
02:02oh this sounds useful how do we get to
02:03our budget data and we said well you're
02:05the CEO just send it over and we sat
02:07we've talked with them we looked at
02:08their systems and discovered an epidemic
02:12it's in that virtually every state and
02:14local government is about 90,000 in the
02:15United States is using software that's
02:18often 30 years old and we saw a great
02:20opportunity to help those who are
02:21running governments and to help those
02:23who rely on the services and goods that
02:25governments provide yeah along with this
02:28software which is decades years old and
02:31a lot of government offices we're seeing
02:33that change but also the the people work
02:35in government there's a rising
02:36group of Millennials and people who are
02:38technology natives who are now entering
02:40the public sector and looking at how
02:41they can bring their expectations and
02:43knowledge of how to use technology into
02:45their roles there and also citizens so
02:48Michael maybe you can comment on just
02:50how technology changed your perspective
02:52and kind of how a local government here
02:55in California has been working sure and
02:57I'll give you a little bit of a resume a
02:59little bit too as as you said I've been
03:02the mayor twice in Mountain View and of
03:03course most people now know Mountain
03:05View there was a time when nobody knew
03:07where we were but first started Silicon
03:09Graphics and I would get a little
03:10company called Google over there so
03:12they're always fun to have around
03:13technology in government I you know a
03:17lot of people sort of sometimes thinks
03:19it's a bit of an oxymoron a little bit
03:21like military intelligence partly
03:24because there's so much inertia in
03:27government things don't change quickly
03:29which is usually a good a good thing if
03:32you really sit and think about it a
03:34mountain view just this year hired
03:37recall a you know a CIO is part of is as
03:43head of is one of our management team
03:45just because we just had random acts of
03:48technology going on in the city no
03:51central drive so it's really important
03:54but there's a lot of people that have
03:56been in government for a long time that
03:59I don't think they resist it they don't
04:01resist technology change but it's
04:03unfamiliar and nobody has time to get
04:07out and really spend time learning
04:09something new and that resources are so
04:11limited in government which is probably
04:13one of the biggest challenges so one of
04:15the benefits of open gov is that it's
04:17allowing much more data transparency
04:20right being able to surface things that
04:22before were locked away in documents and
04:24locked away in file cabinets behind
04:25doors and offices that were open you
04:27know between 8 & 2 p.m. so now with this
04:30data sharing how is that gonna change
04:31how local governments interact and you
04:33know what new what new dynamics dynamics
04:37can occur and how can governments run
04:39given the this openness of data we don't
04:42know what we don't know and so how to
04:45use this okay this is new you guys the
04:47developers have a great great idea great
04:50vision of what this can do and that's
04:53there but we haven't ever thought about
04:55it that way so how do we use this what
04:57can we use it for involve our social
05:01media person to start putting it out
05:04always to start using it and as that
05:06changes I think we will see how it's
05:09used differently in the house and how
05:12the community can really get out there
05:14and start using I would interject here I
05:18take a lot of onus I think the onus is
05:20on open gov to help the customers
05:22realize the value to see the use cases
05:24it's a bit of a give and take because
05:27we're learning so much from our
05:28customers by having Mayor Casper's AG
05:31around asking questions have his staff
05:33engaging with the software the same goes
05:36for other customers mayor Garcetti in
05:38the city of Los Angeles
05:39two months ago released his first
05:41proposed budget as mayor to 4,000,000
05:44Los Angelenos using open gov software he
05:47gathered the whole LA press corps and
05:48brought them to City Hall and so there
05:50were the 5-foot television screen and
05:52walked through the budget and allowed
05:54them to drill down and see basically how
05:5622 billion dollars is planned to be
05:58spent across the city and that was
06:01exciting to us because believe it or not
06:03we hadn't we hadn't really thought
06:04through wow this is a perfect vehicle
06:06for the mayor of the council to stand
06:08before citizens or even before
06:10committees and other things and actually
06:12convey this critical information rather
06:14than have a two-page budget book printed
06:16out or circulated PDF yeah and there's
06:19so many use cases like that that we're
06:21actively developing and that's really
06:23the power of basically bringing the
06:25Internet to the finances and budget of
06:27government so a follow-up to that is so
06:30what is the implication of this so you
06:33go from a you know 200 page book to a
06:36five foot television screen but but what
06:38and how the the the government runs when
06:42they have access to information they can
06:44share it you know we think about the
06:45network effects of a lot of different
06:47towns or cities to even be able to share
06:49this information with each other
06:50what's the longer-term implications sure
06:52well let me paint a few pictures here
06:54and then and then I'll turn over to Mike
06:57and I'll just rapid-fire here not
07:01unlikely that a member of the community
07:02asks the mayor hey how much have we
07:04spent on police salaries over the last
07:05five years until opened up the mayor
07:08doesn't have any tools at his disposal
07:09to actually answer that very basic
07:11question post open gov the mayor can
07:13take about 10 seconds and do it
07:15post open gov the citizen can take about
07:1710 seconds and avoid the question in the
07:18first place another use case that
07:20citizens going to go ask a question of
07:23the administration in the government and
07:25these are people who have tons of work
07:26going on and have to do different things
07:28and now a request comes in that they
07:30need to respond to and they don't have
07:32any tools that they're disposable to
07:33respond to it so why don't we go have
07:35the manager who's a highly paid senior
07:37executive call IT to run a report or an
07:40object query from the thirty-year-old
07:42financial management system in order to
07:44respond to a basic question from a
07:45citizen and take a couple hours out of
07:47two or three people's day to get that
07:49information out to the public not the
07:51best use of resources for really anyone
07:54ranging from the citizen to the senior
07:55executive to the IT team third use case
07:58that citizen trusts his or her
08:00government just a tiny little bit more
08:01and that government can start to
08:04actually work just a little bit better
08:05for the citizen imagine you need to pass
08:08a bond measure or a tax measure this is
08:10going on in a another open gov customer
08:12namely the Union city of Union City
08:14California they're using our new balance
08:16sheet visualization and plan to make a
08:18proposal to their community for a tax
08:20measure when you're going out to raise
08:22money to build a bridge or a school or
08:24library and your citizens trust you more
08:26or they understand why you need to do
08:28something you just generated revenue for
08:31the government so it can provide goods
08:32and services to the citizens I could go
08:34on and on and on but these are the use
08:36cases that were developing and the ROI
08:38that we're seeing mm-hmm
08:40no I was just gonna say you know all of
08:43those are true I mean one of them that
08:45he was just talking about are issues
08:47around and we just were
08:49this the other day we're having an
08:51explosion of public records requests and
08:54a lot of those are financially based and
08:57having participated in webinar this
08:59morning it was learning about one of the
09:02products where you can actually go in
09:05and sort all the data you can find every
09:06check written to this person much
09:09quicker than having a highly paid you
09:12know city attorney going through and
09:14going through the record I mean and
09:16that's just people responding to
09:19information requests as opposed to
09:21actually doing the people's business
09:23knowing is is what's gonna make this
09:26really exciting so let's fast forward to
09:30the the city of the future right so
09:31we're talking about some examples of
09:33streamlining how information shared and
09:35kind of the checks and balances and how
09:37that fast that cycle can run with the
09:38public how are all I will the public
09:42interact with the government in the
09:43future how well vendors interact with
09:44the government in the future
09:46when maybe there's an API for government
09:49to be able to get to this data and to
09:50build applications and want to hear what
09:53you think the future holds for all the
09:55different constituents there's a whole
09:57bunch of things jumping out to me I'll
09:59just I'll jump fast forward a year or
10:01two although this is really happening
10:03right now we are building the capability
10:05for cities and other governments to
10:07start comparing their finances to each
10:09other start networking imagine if you're
10:11running a government you need to compare
10:14how much you're spending with how much
10:15you budget it whether you're running the
10:17whole government the police department
10:18one division within the police
10:19department that's a laborious process in
10:22and of itself and that's basic
10:23management reporting we've unveiled the
10:25capabilities to do that with the click
10:27of a few buttons imagine being able to
10:30do that running a city or running a
10:32department or running a division and
10:33then comparing your budget or your
10:35actuals with 50 or 150 other governments
10:38across the platform to see how
10:39comparable cities or to find comparable
10:41cities and see how they're spending
10:42their money that's the heart of business
10:44intelligence if you're running a
10:45start-up how much should I spend on
10:47marketing Tom how how much I spend on
10:49operations well I need that advice I
10:51might want to talk to other
10:52entrepreneurs or other startups
10:53governments need to do this too how much
10:56should you be spending on library
10:57what about community theater what kind
11:00of community do you want to run
11:01model yourself after these are questions
11:03and these are capabilities that software
11:05can grant and so we see a world in which
11:07governments can learn from each other
11:08network and tighten that community of
11:11administration so that it can be more
11:12efficient in data-driven I think there's
11:15also a more nebulous thing and I think
11:18one of the things this does is it
11:22citizens start having more trade trust
11:26and faith in their governments I mean
11:28when everything is out there you know
11:30you know open the kimono as they say you
11:33know you can see everything and people
11:35can you know they can see what we're
11:37spending money on and they can see where
11:39it's going and they can see where it
11:41isn't going and I think that really is
11:42important in in a day and age where
11:45people are actually having less and less
11:47faith in their government and in that
11:50interesting point think about the future
11:51and kind of what the average citizen
11:54will look like we assume they're gonna
11:55be very technology savvy and be able to
11:57kind of engage with these systems that
11:59might be out there but there might be
12:01folks who are we're not tech savvy right
12:03there might be the the citizens who just
12:05refuse to to do the new thing and unlike
12:09a corporation you can't fire those as
12:10customers right you know the people are
12:12still on Windows XP you know they want
12:14to upgrade and Microsoft eventually says
12:15you know what you can't upgrade anymore
12:17you gotta move on you can't do that if
12:19you're the government so how do you
12:20think about the kind of the late
12:22majority and the the laggards who may
12:24not want to engage with the government
12:26using any of these new systems that work
12:28for dreaming up it's a tough one
12:31from my perspective because as you say
12:34you can't just say this is the way we're
12:36gonna do it from now on and because
12:39every citizen has a right and
12:41unfortunately I think what that means is
12:43there has to be a certain amount of sort
12:46of say you know analog service delivery
12:49analog information delivery until people
12:53do come along now surprisingly though I
12:56mean my mother is 85 years old and she
12:59asked me every day how to do Facebook
13:00and every day I tell her and every day
13:02she writes it down and every day she
13:03asked me again but she's trying and I
13:06think we are coming along and there will
13:10I mean there are people that won't read
13:12the newspaper therapy
13:14that won't watch the television and
13:15they're just not going to adopt
13:17technology and at some point I think
13:20governments large and small are just
13:24going to have to move on and you know
13:27there will be alternative channels but
13:29if you if you want to read it you're
13:30gonna have to come down to the library
13:32and read it we're not gonna mail it to
13:34you like we've done for the last 20
13:36years sort of thing Michael earlier you
13:38made the point that government may not
13:40move at the speed of corporations and
13:42maybe that's that's the way it ought to
13:44be can you comment more on that and sure
13:47I've you know governments are but
13:49they're by their nature risk-averse
13:50that's one thing they have a huge public
13:54trust that they have to maintain and
13:57there is a public process you know
14:01public hearings that the rights of
14:03people to come out and be heard and that
14:06is a slow process and it's part of the
14:10whole transparency world of we do stuff
14:13in public we encourage public input and
14:16if you short-circuit that there is heck
14:19to pay so I'd love to add some color to
14:23that most governments in the country
14:25mind you he as the mayor noted are run
14:29by professional administrators it's only
14:31the largest governments in the country
14:32where the senior elected official like
14:35the mayor is also the CEO most
14:37governments are run by councils which
14:39are effectively legislatures and what
14:41you do when you have a council form of
14:44government is you've introduced
14:46consensus decision making if you will or
14:48majority decision making and that's just
14:50naturally less efficient just go look at
14:52the United States Congress but also the
14:55very idea of budgeting is designed I
14:58don't love this word anti-corruption you
15:00might as well just call it transparency
15:01but it's designed to map out where all
15:04the money's going to go so that you
15:06can't make snap decisions and so that
15:08you know what's going on and so that the
15:09money goes where it's supposed to go
15:10well that's a really laborious process
15:13we don't typically live our lives as
15:15individuals like that you don't map out
15:17you know what you're gonna spend on
15:19everything how much you can spend on
15:21restaurants this year how much you're
15:22going to spend on shirts and clothes
15:24actually the government almost does that
15:27and that's a very complicated process
15:29and it requires lots of coordination
15:32every division director rolling up a
15:35budget to department heads rolling up a
15:36budget to finance and managers and back
15:38down and that process right there
15:42is low yes so we might be able to say
15:46that technology may potentially be able
15:48to automate some of those checks and
15:49balances right that's built into the
15:50system to prevent things from going off
15:52the rails or from any behavior which
15:55isn't aboveboard and that's partly I
15:58think the benefit of all the technology
16:00that can be done now in the cloud and be
16:02accessible but a much broader audience
16:04inside of the government one you know on
16:06that note what we really see is the
16:11power of technology to help people do
16:12their work better so that if we do have
16:15a large work flow to go through and
16:17there's portions of it that can be
16:19automated let's automate let's let's
16:20offer to do the hard work so so the
16:22council or so professional finance
16:25managers and and senior executives can
16:27use their brains in their job and not
16:29have to rifle through the data just to
16:31get what they need to do their job so
16:33we've talked about how far technology
16:35could go but what are the issues that
16:37technology won't touch back to the study
16:40of corruption and kind of fighting that
16:42issue in government you know that's a
16:43people problem more than a technology
16:45problem what are the things you think
16:47are still fundamentals that maybe
16:49technology can be approached but there's
16:52still kind of other changes that need to
16:54happen and kind of help people work with
16:56technology what it constantly amazes me
16:59in the world you know and you know
17:01transparency hopefully you you can't
17:04hide anything so people see what's going
17:06on and so issues of potential corruption
17:08are eliminated but what I find is when
17:11there's corruption its people doing what
17:14they know is absolutely wrong and all
17:17the laws in the world don't stop people
17:19from doing that and I don't think
17:21anything you could do in a technology
17:23world really can affect people deciding
17:26to do the wrong thing I think I think
17:31financial transparency can create a
17:32great norm and help communities and help
17:35administrators but I would note maybe as
17:40governments in our experience and we
17:42work with many dozens of governments
17:44across the country now in 20 states if
17:47they're not like filled with corruption
17:48it doesn't work quite like that and we
17:51don't see ourselves as antique or
17:53anything like that you say yeah there's
17:55not like a line item for corruption in a
17:57government budget in fact governments
18:00typically unfortunately as is the case
18:02in life have to operate in a zero-sum
18:04game where you can buy more parks or you
18:07can buy more police officers but you
18:09can't have more of everything unless you
18:11want to raise more money and so this is
18:15open gov and tools like it and and the
18:19the growing trend toward more technology
18:21in government can greatly help in terms
18:23of efficiency but it's not really about
18:25gotcha you know it can help reporters do
18:28their job it can help citizens engage
18:30all these things are critical as a great
18:32manager in a local city here once said
18:35you know citizens often get the
18:37government they deserve and what he
18:39meant by that was citizens and are they
18:41engaging do they even know how it
18:43government works do they even know the
18:44difference between a manager and a mayor
18:46and and you can get answers to that with
18:49technology and that can help strengthen
18:51the kind of glue of democracy and so
18:53it's not really about wow this is gonna
18:55open up show that hidden pot of money or
18:58you know expose corruption or you know I
19:01gotcha and more about how can people do
19:03their jobs better how can citizens do
19:05their jobs better and I think you know
19:08ultimately in in sort of the government
19:10world it's all about community and there
19:13are lots of ways to do sort of digital
19:15community I mean Facebook next door you
19:17name it but still people have to get
19:20together there still has to be a sense
19:22of community and I really don't think
19:24that's something that actually can be
19:26replaced should be replaced you know and
19:29you know until we're in a Star Trek
19:31episode and we're all just a theory ol
19:33brainwaves in pods yeah well I want to
19:37thank both of you for being with us
19:38today and been a very interesting
19:41conversation and Zak we look forward to
19:43open groves growth in Mexico still
19:46waiting to go down there and fix some of
19:48the problems you you identified they
19:49kind of got you going on this journey
19:50and Michael we'll be keeping our eye on
19:53seeing that all the innovative things
19:54that town is doing and again thank you
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