00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6 & Z
00:03podcast I am sonal today we have a
00:05unique sort of crossover episode with
00:07writer director producer Brian Koppelman
00:09who with this partner David Levine also
00:12wrote some of the most popular and still
00:13discussed movies like Ocean's thirteen
00:15and rounders which will also touch on in
00:18this episode but currently brian is a co
00:20showrunner with David on billions which
00:23airs on Showtime and the newest season
00:24actually drops this weekend the reason
00:27I'm calling this a sort of crossover
00:28episode is that Brian also interviewed
00:30Marc Andreessen for his podcast the
00:32moment which you can listen to on iTunes
00:34and elsewhere if you want to hear more
00:36of their thoughts on the difference
00:37between a hallucination and vision
00:39putting your art or products and
00:40yourself out into the world and more we
00:43also put the written Q&A version of that
00:45conversation up if you want to read it
00:47on a 6 and Z com but they're two
00:49separate conversations so you don't have
00:51to have listened to either to follow
00:52both today's discussion begins with Marc
00:55interviewing Brian and I jump in in
00:56between here and there as well starting
00:59with the business of creativity and the
01:00creativity of business then going into
01:02how to speak to power speak to one's
01:04team speak to Co partners as well as
01:06managing the emotions and ego around all
01:09that and finally ending on some specific
01:11moments about billions the show in the
01:13last 10 minutes where I'll signal a
01:15light spoiler alert warning beforehand
01:17we're here to talk about the business
01:19and making of film and TV and startups
01:23and tech and the parallels and whatnot
01:25take it from the top mark fantastic so
01:27Brian thank you for doing this so I've
01:28always been fascinated I'm deeply
01:30fascinated by the process of creative
01:33expression and success in you know for
01:35sure and technology and if we think of
01:37what we do up here is fundamentally
01:38trying to find the most creative
01:39entrepreneurs and trying to help them
01:40build you know enormous both creative
01:42and professional and business success
01:44around what they do and and it strikes
01:46me it struck me for a long time that
01:48there are a lot of similarities between
01:49how the valley works and tech works and
01:51how entertainment how entertainment
01:53works film television other forms of
01:54entertainment works there's a big
01:55similarities there's also some big
01:56differences which hopefully we'll talk
01:57about you know it guy he's obviously
01:59been super successful across both film
02:01and television for a long time and even
02:03before that and in music but I'm gonna
02:04focus on film and television let's start
02:06with this what was the first project
02:08that you and I think it was you and your
02:10partner David yes first project that
02:11you've you that you and David will
02:13for creating selling and making it with
02:17rounders the for which we wrote the
02:19screenplay and it's today there are
02:20people online arguing about that movie
02:22which which is incredibly satisfying
02:24because as you know when you make these
02:27bets it takes a long time to know if you
02:29were right very often and rounders was
02:33rejected it was incredibly difficult the
02:35movie wasn't a big box office hit but 21
02:38years later people are in ferocious
02:40online arguments about the most
02:42microscopic moments in the film which I
02:44back then of course I would have said I
02:47would have said two things I would said
02:48we were trying to make a movie like and
02:49write a movie that would have the effect
02:51on people that movies like diner had on
02:53us which is that we would watch them
02:54over and over again and quote them and
02:56so the fact that happened is really
02:57rewarding it was kind of in our in our
02:59minds but when we set out to do that we
03:03knew that there was only a needle in a
03:05haystack chance of success
03:07the doing it we we knew right from the
03:09beginning and I think this is something
03:10that has been really important to our
03:13ability to continue to do this work
03:14David and me for it for this long is
03:16from the beginning it was only about us
03:19getting in a room and we're going
03:21separately in our individual rooms
03:23before we would come back together and
03:26doing the work itself trusting that if
03:29we found a way to do the work itself
03:31well enough some rewards would come some
03:34have been really delayed rewards and
03:35some have been much quicker you know we
03:39never know we never seem to know which
03:41it's correct so let's start with for
03:42people who have our listeners who
03:43haven't seen rounders maybe did
03:44thumbnail description of rounders
03:46rounders is a movie set in the poker
03:48underground of New York and Matt Damon
03:51and Edward Norton John Malkovich are the
03:52stars of the movie John Turturro and
03:54it's about a character who's faced with
03:57a life decision which is is he gonna
03:59pursue his passion this thing that he
04:01believes he's great at even though he's
04:03had setbacks and in fact these setbacks
04:06have threatened his stable life and so
04:08he's he's at a point where he has to
04:09choose the stable traditional road or
04:12the the road that his heart is telling
04:14him to pursue and that's the central
04:17question I mean the movie has a lot of
04:18sort of heightened dramatic you know you
04:20you want to choose a heightened dramatic
04:21construct in which to hide the theme
04:23because the last thing you wanted if you
04:24want to talk about the themes you know
04:27eliezer yudkowsky and just write essays
04:30if you're gonna tell it in a fictional
04:32construct make that construct compelling
04:34so only later people wonder and feel
04:36what the themes are so versus tell kind
04:38of thing so when you say they do the
04:40work like what was what was the do the
04:41work part of rounders for you and David
04:42first it was about researching so I walk
04:47into a poker club one night I heard the
04:49way the people spoke saw what it looked
04:52like and immediately recognized nobody's
04:55made a movie about this I can't believe
04:57this exists this should be a movie I
05:00called Dave he said that's great who are
05:02the people in the world we're gonna
05:03write about who are the characters were
05:04who were gonna care about so we started
05:07going to this poker club most every
05:09night taking notes surreptitiously and
05:12then at a certain point we felt we had
05:15enough of those notes we started really
05:17figuring out what the characters
05:19question would be who the character
05:21would be what the important
05:22relationships would be in his life and
05:24then we had to so then we started
05:27outlining it and then we had to just
05:28decide okay starting tomorrow we're
05:31gonna meet every morning one mistake I
05:32see people make when they decide they
05:34have to do some kind of artistic work is
05:36they think it means they have to grab
05:38that identity so hard that has to shut
05:40out the rest of their identity but what
05:42I found was you don't have to do that I
05:44didn't want to put all the pressure on
05:46myself of quitting my job and saying I
05:48need a beret and an easel and I'm an
05:49artist so what was your job at the time
05:51I was working as an executive in the
05:52music business okay David was bartending
05:54okay and so what we do was when he would
05:55come off bartending he would sleep a
05:57couple hours and and I would get up
05:58extra early and we would meet in a
06:01underneath my apartment that had a slop
06:03sink in it because it was an
06:04institutional little room had barely
06:06room for both of us to sit i sat on the
06:07floor a lot of the time and and we met
06:11every day for two hours in the morning
06:13to write the script and this is
06:14naturally completely on spackle in fact
06:17this is I think a piece of this puzzle
06:19that I never told before which is that
06:21when we had the idea David met a young
06:24producer and told them the idea and the
06:28producer offered us $5,000 now and said
06:30for five grand I'll be your partner I'll
06:33give you five grand but then we're gonna
06:34share and if we sell it we're gonna
06:36share in your in the writers fee and I'm
06:39gonna be your partner on the thing
06:40we were tempted because represented hey
06:42wait someone's paying me too - right
06:44we're professionals then right but we
06:46asked some advice a woman named Rachel
06:48harvest who was at fineline she happens
06:50to be the sister of Adam Horowitz the
06:51Beastie Boys Rachel was a great
06:54executive and I knew somebody who knew
06:55her and we we met met with her and we
06:57said what should we do someone's willing
06:59to pay us $5,000 and she said I don't
07:00need to hear the idea but if someone's
07:03willing to pay you guys with no credits
07:04$5,000 now right right the thing and
07:06you'll have a much better chance of
07:08success and we've taken that lesson to
07:10heart still to this day - right
07:11unencumbered we like to go in a room and
07:15let our idea come to fruition fully let
07:18ourselves let us work out all of the all
07:24the complicated parts of it without
07:26outside interference let me let me ask
07:28is a lot of professional right where the
07:29adages I think of professional writers
07:31is never write for free if you write for
07:33free you're a sucker Samuel Johnson said
07:35that right yeah you're a sucker you're
07:36being taken advantage of right never
07:37never you know a doctor wouldn't doctor
07:39wouldn't do surgery for free a pilot fly
07:41a plane for free writers wouldn't write
07:42for free but and anyway you're not
07:44writing for free per se but like there
07:45is an element of this of like how like
07:47it feels like a lot of your peers need
07:50the deal before depends where you where
07:52you put Evie right um
07:54expect you know right where do you put
07:56the Evie right I look the way I view the
08:00need for personal expression I don't I
08:03actually completely disagree with that
08:05quote I understand what the quote is
08:06talking about don't be taken advantage
08:07of and it's also kind of making fun of
08:08the artistic impulse it's saying are you
08:10a professional or not yeah but I would
08:12assert you can be a professional you can
08:14treat you can act like a professional
08:15before you're paid as a professional it
08:18depends how you're going to approach it
08:19depends what your expectations are but
08:21our expected value even though it might
08:23have been foolhardy to think so was that
08:25there would be something on the other
08:27side of it that and and I'll say this
08:28the expected value of not doing the work
08:31like there's no there's no question
08:34about the evie of just thinking I'd like
08:36to write and not writing well if you had
08:37shown up and he's in if you if you guys
08:39have just gone and tried to pitch try to
08:41get it staged your careers would you
08:43been able to do the project no probably
08:45not other than we got someone would've
08:47paid us five grand but okay but but then
08:49later we did make the mistake of
08:51pitching at various times and I mean
08:52occasionally a pitch
08:54has become a movie for us but for
08:56whatever reason we've found that our
08:59strongest work is done in private and
09:01then we take it out and show the world
09:03and that's the for us the for us we find
09:07that when you when you pitch an idea as
09:09you know when someone comes to pitch you
09:10you're entering in a dialogue about this
09:13endeavor and inevitably what we found is
09:16a smart person would say something in
09:18the room so let's assume for a moment
09:19that the people across the desk are an
09:21idiot's someone says something smart you
09:24can't help but have them in your head
09:25when you're then going to do the work
09:26and that might be a smart thing but it
09:28really might not be the right thing
09:29because maybe I've only explained this
09:32this feeling that that that I have about
09:34what this thing could be maybe I've
09:36explained it in a way the best I could
09:39at that moment but left to my own it
09:42would take all sorts of different terms
09:43but but I have that that phrase that the
09:45person uttered to me and I have to keep
09:48returning to that for some reason
09:49because I've already let them inside
09:50this process I have a question about
09:52this though because you know when we go
09:54back to this idea of what you had the
09:56confidence to do this in private and
09:58then put it out into the world and even
10:00with the rounders there was sort of a
10:01long staying power that came about with
10:03that it wasn't like an instant like
10:05box-office hit and one friend how do you
10:08what's the time frame that you sort of a
10:09gauges a success and be how do you sort
10:12of balance this sort of impetus from
10:14executives and other people in your life
10:17who care we're producing and paying for
10:19these products with sort of keeping the
10:22creative process intact without over so
10:26let me back up to answer that question I
10:27have to tell you where I was before we
10:30wrote the first thing and where I was
10:32was in a pretty decent state of misery
10:34because although I had a job that was
10:39well-paying and on the surface seen
10:40creative and although I had I was lucky
10:43enough even having a me and then our
10:45first child did not was not a salve for
10:48the way I was feeling which was like I
10:51wasn't doing this thing that I knew I
10:52had to pursue yeah I wasn't doing the
10:53work I was blocked and and I have this
10:56notion that when you're a block person
10:59when you allow this creative impulse to
11:01be kept down it dies and like any other
11:05kind of death there's toxicity
11:07that's attached to that and as in the
11:09toxicity I knew would leech out and
11:11would actually make you know leech on to
11:14the people that I loved because I would
11:16become a bitter person and I wanted to
11:17be the kind of person who would come
11:19home and tell my kids that they should
11:22chase their dreams with rigor you know
11:24people often just think of it as a relic
11:26of the 60s and it's like hey pursue your
11:29dreams do your thing but it's like well
11:30weights not a slope if you have a dream
11:32if you have a dream work with incredible
11:34rigor and discipline to pursue it and so
11:36I finally got to the place where I knew
11:37and it wasn't about can I have a movie
11:39in the movie theaters what it was about
11:41was can I find a way to have the courage
11:43to do the work that I'm worried I'll
11:45fail at the work that I think is going
11:47to be meaningful and so I decided to
11:49follow my curiosity and my obsessions
11:51and it's not merely paid following your
11:53passion what it is is figuring out if
11:56I'm incredibly curious if I can get to
11:58the root of that and I can somehow
12:00create something out of it that is
12:02worthy first of all in the doing I will
12:05change and become better to answer a
12:07question about success the moment that I
12:10was in there for two hours a day I was
12:13charged the rest of the day so the job
12:15that it seemed mundane and bitter and
12:17sort of annoying to me was much easier
12:20to get through because I'd spent two
12:21hours already firing on all cylinders
12:24and so that in the beginning and and of
12:27course along a career you can hold on to
12:29those things and you can let them go
12:30because we're all human which means that
12:33we're all prey to we can all fall fall
12:36prey to being judged by a standard that
12:39isn't our own and we have to find a way
12:40to remind ourselves that our own
12:42standard is the standard that matters so
12:44of course I'm not gonna say that the
12:45whole time I've been doing this I only
12:47cared about what I felt like when I was
12:48doing the work I will say that each time
12:50I have reframed and refocused to
12:52remember that what matters is what I
12:53feel like when I'm doing the work it
12:55immediately makes me feel better and
12:57then I immediately don't care about the
12:59rest of that stuff easier to say of
13:00court you might think easier to say
13:01because we've had this this success but
13:04I but I know I can point to a movie like
13:05solitary Man which was a commercial
13:06failure once I mean it made its money
13:08back but it was not a big commercial
13:10success but I know it's the best movie
13:13we ever made it got these incredible
13:14reviews so I wasn't a craze that's how I
13:16know you know this question I'm really
13:18interested in is delusion verse genius
13:20illusion verse capability but I wouldn't
13:22change anything of the four-year
13:23struggle to write that movie and then we
13:25directed the movie because as an artist
13:27if you get to express the thing you want
13:29to express and then you get to make it
13:31you've kind of won the odds against are
13:35so great even the odds against
13:38completing something right even the odds
13:39against actually showing up I want to be
13:42a writer is way different than I am a
13:43writer I want to be an artist who's way
13:44different than I am an artist and we
13:46decide where you get when you get to
13:47give yourself those designations but I
13:49was so sad so miserable that and it
13:53immediately changed upon doing the work
13:55and so that's I have had to force myself
13:58to have that be the stance go back to
14:00the state so do you ever suffer from
14:02writer's block no because I rituals like
14:04morning could you describe that yeah I
14:06do I do I meditate every morning and I
14:08do morning pages every morning so what
14:10certain morning pages like out of Julie
14:12Cameron's book the artists way I I do
14:13three longhand pages a real brain dump
14:16where I just let the pen move for three
14:20pages no matter what and it has this
14:22incredible effect on me it's
14:23self-hypnosis it's a brain dump so that
14:25you're putting all the dross just gets
14:29out there on the page also it has the
14:30effect of I can't be blocked I've
14:32already written three pages so you're in
14:34a state of flow you're in a state of
14:36movement that is the tool I used to
14:38become unblocked when I was 30 and it
14:40when I was that unhappy and I said I had
14:43to try to write something I had given
14:45Dave awaken the giant within and Dave
14:47gave me the artist way and the
14:49combination of those things made me
14:50realize I had to figure out what it was
14:53that I really wanted to do and be and
14:55then the artists way gave me this tool
14:57to try to actualize and as soon as I
15:00start doing those pages I was like oh I
15:01can do this I can write I didn't
15:02actually make good on it and I've done
15:04it for 23 years do you keep the pages no
15:06your bartley i mike there are my kids
15:08have instructions to burn upon my you
15:11know decades or centuries later they
15:13skate publishers at the notebooks I
15:14can't no I can't moves no I've read chem
15:16who's notebooks and Somerset mom's
15:17notebooks and I'm happy that they exist
15:19but that probably wasn't their intention
15:21so what did you get when you guys when
15:23you guys sold routers I got the gun the
15:25trigger got pulled yes so what did you
15:26guys have when you walked in the room to
15:28do that at that at that point well so we
15:31finished the screenplay it was first
15:34favorite story and I tell in detail on
15:36my blog which is not a very active blog
15:38Brian Koppelman calm but we were
15:41rejected by every single agency in
15:43Hollywood one said it was overwritten
15:44another said it was underwritten I still
15:46don't know what either of those terms
15:47mean and I wrote down everything they
15:49all said and this is an incredible
15:51Hollywood lesson because I really begin
15:53until personal every rejection also
15:56feels so final right in the beginning so
15:59I wrote on what everyone said and then
16:01we sold the thing and that Monday so we
16:05sold the thing over a weekend on a
16:06Monday and by Tuesday every single
16:10agency that had passed called us to try
16:14to sign us and I read them all their
16:16comments I had it on a yellow legal pad
16:18right and I just read them I said well
16:20but you said that the thing was
16:21overwritten I did I read it to him and
16:23it wasn't that the movie got made and
16:24they like it was simply that you think
16:27it intrinsically changed in the work
16:29itself and they all and nobody owned it
16:32not one of them said you know what I
16:34guess I'm all set I didn't read it it
16:35was my readers my assistants it was
16:40about poker and I thought it was your
16:41script it was incredible but immediately
16:43just I got it immediately framed the
16:45question for me for the rest of my
16:46career about who knows who knows what so
16:49then it's bought by Miramax and which is
16:53something I guess I used to say with
16:54pride and Dave and I were just the
16:55writers weren't the producers on the
16:56movie we weren't the directors of the
16:57movie but we and this has to do with
17:00continuing to work with rigor there was
17:02a moment where they were gonna hire a
17:03director that who we thought would fire
17:06us off the movie and we thought would do
17:07a bad job we met him we didn't like him
17:10and so even though it wasn't art but in
17:12our billet we decided we'd better find a
17:15director who they would hire but who
17:18would be someone we felt we could work
17:20with and it was really overstepping our
17:23position and and I think part of it is
17:27and this gets into I know part of it was
17:29that we were each of us were raised in
17:32environments where we saw people take
17:34these kinds of risks and my dad was an
17:37entrepreneur and I saw a lot of the time
17:38the way that he would just overstep his
17:41position to achieve a result and so we
17:44found out through some sources who
17:47the movie company who they were
17:49interested in making movies with we
17:51triangulated that with people we could
17:52get to and found out that our agency
17:54represented John Dahl who was really
17:56high on our list and we said to our
17:59agents at the time listen we're gonna
18:01stay in California until you can get us
18:04a meeting with John Dahl and they were
18:05like well how are we gonna do it we'll
18:06send him this script the letter that we
18:08write and we'll just wait around and
18:10they had all just competed to sign us
18:12right so this was the very beginning of
18:15this relationship with the agent and in
18:17a way he had he had to prove himself to
18:20us we're here with a leverage that the
18:22newness of the situation even though
18:23often people in that situation think
18:25that they work for the agency and the
18:28agents do a really good job of making
18:29people feel lucky to have them but we
18:32were aware of the actual leverage in the
18:34situation he got the script to John John
18:37read it luckily for us he really liked
18:38it he came over in medicine our hotel we
18:41all shook hands on it we knew he was an
18:42honorable person we then got to have
18:45this incredibly incredible moment which
18:47now and I think back and I kind of can't
18:49even believe happened which is we then
18:50called the producers and the studio and
18:52we said John dollars gonna direct
18:53rounders and they all went well then
18:55that makes no sense he's supposed to
18:56direct this other move for how could you
18:57do that you overstepped and we all said
18:59well do you want John Doyle to direct
19:00the movie and they went yeah that
19:04allowed us to be on set every day
19:06because when you're the one who brought
19:07the director in and you have this
19:09relationship plus John it has no ego and
19:12he knew we understood the world of Poker
19:14also this incredibly lucky thing was we
19:17were the same age as Matt and Edward and
19:19so there was a relationship that
19:22developed right away which was we were
19:24gonna take these guys and show them the
19:25world of underground poker we were gonna
19:27be experts about this John Doyle gave us
19:29our limits he was like you have to
19:30really think carefully but we said
19:31actors you can't contradict me you have
19:33to we're gonna work together but there
19:35was a chain of command and then with
19:36that he gave us complete freedom within
19:38that he was like now help me make the
19:40movie but none of it would have happened
19:42if we would have pitched a movie we
19:44would have been powerless
19:44we had ownership because we'd written
19:46the whole thing and we'd proven we were
19:48experts can ask you a quick question on
19:50this notion of ownership David Levine
19:52and you you guys are both showing us for
19:53billions I'm dying to know how because
19:56when a studio buys your show someone is
20:01it is your show as showrunner like what
20:04if there's a conflict and you guys have
20:06like a huge falling-out and I'm thinking
20:08of the case of like the
20:09sherman-palladino x' and Gilmore Girls
20:11and they had to exit before the last
20:12season and it totally changed the last
20:14season of the show and then they came
20:16back to remake the thing is they're this
20:18thing where you're owning this thing
20:20that other people are now sharing in and
20:21then you have to kind of give up your
20:22baby like well I'll tell you it's it's
20:26it's so analogous to the way a founder
20:29and we'll work with the investors right
20:32the VC the board it it's up to you to
20:36manage that relationship it's up to you
20:38to set the terms and look this does get
20:41into questions of privilege like as two
20:44white men growing up in some with
20:47David's grandfather and my father were
20:49pretty successful we learned at a young
20:52age how to talk to powerful people most
20:54people don't get an education and
20:56talking about you're right about that
20:57and that when people ask about
20:59advantages it yes getting college paid
21:01for was a huge advantage any I could
21:04take certain risks that other people
21:06couldn't because I didn't have a massive
21:07debt but much more important are
21:09certainly equally important was from a
21:11young age my dad would like put me in
21:13situations where I would have to deal
21:14with powerful people and I would have to
21:16find a way to get the result I wanted I
21:19could he would let me be in a recording
21:21studio when he was making records and
21:22sometimes asked my opinion in a room
21:25full of incredibly scary powerful people
21:27he would let me be in meetings and he
21:29would leave and so I understood from a
21:32young age how to enter how to interact
21:35how to talk to power I can tell the main
21:40thing is is don't treat them as though
21:42most of the time don't treat them with
21:44the sense of awe and that they're like
21:46their station makes them better than you
21:47but also don't try to condescend to them
21:49as though you're the smartest person in
21:51the world and you know the biggest thing
21:53make them laugh once in a while that's
21:54actually probably right walk into a room
21:56make them laugh make them feel like you
21:58have the answers to their problems yeah
22:00and that you're comfortable in your own
22:01skin I mean so much of what I'm talking
22:03about is an ingrained sense of comfort
22:06in your own skin is being able to just
22:08continue to grow you must always
22:10continue to grow continue better
22:11yourself but find a way to sit there in
22:14relaxed and and understand that you're
22:17not sitting there with the all-knowing
22:18all-powerful Oracle or oz so which is to
22:21say to answer your question it's our job
22:24to make the show to make the actors
22:27comfortable to make the crew feel
22:30empowered to make sure the show is
22:32written edited and shot right it's also
22:34our job to make the show on budget to
22:37communicate with the show time if
22:39there's gonna be hey guess what this
22:41next week it's gonna look like we're
22:42over but here's how we're gonna solve
22:44that the week after also to make them
22:46feel heard when they're talking about
22:48the show you're giving notes make them
22:50feel heard make them know that you
22:52actually are listening then it's really
22:54important that we only take the notes
22:56that will make the show better and we do
22:58that in a way that makes them feel good
22:59about that advise that's so great it's
23:03like that can apply to anybody does I
23:04think that applies across the board you
23:05know how I coach people how to do that
23:07from Larry Sanders I don't even know you
23:19must watch it immediately so already the
23:21producer in Torrance legendary all ready
23:24the producer and and so typically we see
23:27this with young people went here which
23:28is like you give somebody in your world
23:30it's called a note in our world it's
23:31like feedback or it's like you know
23:32here's an idea and you give somebody an
23:34idea and like they immediately get the
23:35backup right well they do one of two
23:37things they either like take it way too
23:38seriously and they like try to do
23:39everything you tell them or they get
23:40their backup and they get offended like
23:41how dare you question my vision kind of
23:43stuff and then that sets up a weird
23:45dynamic where you feel like you can't
23:46talk to them right and so and both of
23:47those are bad right one way you
23:49basically hijack their creative vision
23:50to be a bad affect the other way is you
23:52end up with a bad a hostile relationship
23:54and so our teas whole approach to
23:56dealing with the network executives in
23:58Larry Sanders is a show inside a show
24:00basically it's a show about a show his
24:02way of dealing with the the suits from
24:04the network was basically that you know
24:05they'd say well I don't know you know I
24:06think that you know the curtain that the
24:07talk show is red we really think it
24:08should be purple and Artie would
24:09literally say that is a really
24:11interesting idea I am really gonna think
24:13hard about that one and you're right
24:14it's like okay look okay okay we know
24:16what else do you have right and then of
24:18course you know in the show the suit
24:19leaves the room he rips around their way
24:21out they're like that was the best
24:22meeting ever yeah the viewing of feeling
24:24that you've been hurt and so that's like
24:26it was what I telling people was like
24:28like if you can if you can just do that
24:30you're better than most and then and
24:32then to your point if on top of that you
24:33can actually consider and actually
24:35absorb something sometimes nobody's
24:37perfect so there are times I'm working
24:3917 hours a day and somebody gives me
24:40know what I really disagree with and I
24:42might say you know I might as you here's
24:52the thing if you have the right kind of
24:54relationship with the people with whom
24:55you work you can say that because they
24:58know that's not your default position
25:00and they understand because you're
25:01you're in dialogue with them but not
25:03operating from a place no one's
25:04operating from a place of fear hurt or
25:06misunderstanding and by the way if you
25:08say that's the stupidest [ __ ] note I
25:09ever heard call them the next day and
25:11say let me tell you it was going on
25:13here's the way I'm gonna think about
25:14addressing it or read this and tell me
25:15if you still think so it's a constant
25:18you you you constantly have to remember
25:20if you're in an hour position that
25:23you're grateful to be in this situation
25:24but that you're not in indentured you're
25:27not you're not so grateful that you're
25:29gonna prostrate yourself and ruin the
25:31thing in the process of course and if
25:32you remember that you're in okay shape
25:34the part that I always struggle with
25:35here and I wonder if a lot of people
25:36struggle with this is it I always had
25:39this belief that competency is a thing
25:40that will always get you ahead the
25:42result will speak for itself how do you
25:43sort of play back the results to tell
25:45the story that you want because often
25:47times like the rounders example like
25:49it's this is the conversation that's
25:50happening around the movie because
25:51people have ways of defining those
25:53things I think that's a really big
25:55challenge how do you sort of define it
25:56so that you can make sure that the
25:58narrative you want told your way is that
26:02part of the point I mean in terms of
26:04when you're a showrunner of a a going
26:08concern you're gonna get to prove it out
26:10or not prove it out because you're
26:12making the show and I will say certainly
26:16in the relationship we have with
26:17Showtime all their notes are suggestions
26:20and so Dave and I are getting to prove
26:22it out every episode I will see we did
26:24so okay there a few other things it's
26:26not bad thing to learn the mistakes
26:28people have made ahead of you it's not
26:30bad to do research and know well what is
26:33the third rail in this situation right
26:35so if the third round the situation is
26:36don't go more than 3% over budget on a
26:39given episode and you shall
26:40having conversations that that's that
26:42that is the third rail then don't go
26:44then you know don't be a jerk you're in
26:46a incredibly lucky situation to find a
26:48way they do what you have to do but
26:50there are many other non budgetary
26:53examples so here's how a pilot works
26:56when I lay this out example out it'll
26:57there'll be parallels to your world so a
27:00pilot gets greenlit they give you this
27:02amount of money to go make the pilot and
27:04you're in they've already approved the
27:07script you cast the show together so
27:09that's another one of these things where
27:11you're trying to find a way to express
27:14your opinions make sure you have the
27:16cash you want while understanding we're
27:18in the real world you're not gonna cast
27:19a complete unknown to play the lead
27:21unless you have a bunch of other ways to
27:23say well that's okay because in these
27:25three spots we have people who aren't
27:26but then once that stuff's done guys go
27:29off make your show right because once it
27:33starts going and before it's edited
27:34there is no feedback they can really
27:36give you you're making the show you're
27:38you're making the show you go in the
27:40editing room after you have all this
27:41material you know the show is gonna fit
27:43in an hour-long slot but most people
27:48when they cut their pilot because they
27:49don't actually have the real limitation
27:52of an hour will turn in a sixty seven
27:55minute pilot because their every idea
27:58they had everything they want to be are
28:00now David and I because won't by the
28:02time billions have come around we've
28:03been doing this for a long time and what
28:05happens when you give the 67 minute
28:06thing is you're inviting a bunch of
28:09people to tell you how to get the thing
28:11to 57 or 58 minutes suddenly they're
28:15giving you their opinion on it also by
28:18you not having to have rigorously with
28:21discipline make those decisions you've
28:23inevitably left in a bunch of stuff that
28:26is you shouldn't have so Dave and I
28:28decided and no you know no matter what
28:30we're turning something in that's 57 or
28:3358 minutes maybe 56 if we could do it
28:35we're gonna take all of those questions
28:38off the table before showing it to the
28:40people who put up the money and I'll
28:43tell you we gave them this cut and and
28:46and and we're realistic people so we
28:48knew all the flaws and the things we
28:50would want to reshoot before it would go
28:51on the air but you know they're gonna
28:52make it and maybe some of the audience
28:54when you shoot a pilot there's no
28:55guarantee you're gonna have a series
28:56right they've invested a bunch of money
28:57showtimes no.14 if they make a drama
28:59pilot there it's very likely they're
29:01gonna put on the air but you don't know
29:02and so we turn over this pilot and the
29:06first thing they said to us when they
29:08called us was you guys have already done
29:10all the stuff that normally takes a
29:11month for us to work through with
29:13showrunners which is you've gotten the
29:15thing into a show shape yeah and so
29:17that's because we looked ahead at how
29:21best practice yeah and by the way it's
29:24hard right it's it's actually when
29:26you're in that then you're in the
29:27situation you understand why everybody
29:29turns in in at 67 minutes because you
29:31have to it's much easier to not have to
29:33make those decisions total right it's
29:35much easier to handle decision
29:37confidence actually quite frank yeah is
29:38it's easier to offload those decisions
29:40to the axis someone else the people who
29:42are paying for it instead we said you
29:43know we're gonna make these choices and
29:45we're gonna show them that this is the
29:47vision we have for the show our
29:49structure I think I put the pilot script
29:51online at my I think I put it online at
29:53the blog and if you go look at it
29:55I put rounders up there too which people
29:57have really been reading a lot lately
29:58but if you look at it structurally it's
30:00quite different than the pilot that gone
30:01on on the air different Sheen scene
30:03starts it and because when we got in the
30:05editing room we decided well now we have
30:07the opportunity to make the show be the
30:09best version of itself we were able to
30:11gain objectivity even though it was all
30:13of our hearts in there it's only in the
30:15Edit that you get that are there's one
30:17message you're delivering it's like
30:18here's an incredible product the meta
30:19message I think you're delivering is you
30:21guys are professionals they said that's
30:22a specific explicitly said we know your
30:26show runners who can make the show that
30:28was what gave so this goes to your
30:30question of the relationship how do you
30:31establish a relationship with with that
30:33show your that makes them you're a
30:35professional we can trust and by the way
30:36as you know all you want is a founder
30:39show a founder CEO who can not make it
30:43your job to run the company and just
30:45take the best of your ideas and you want
30:47them to discard the worst of your idea
30:49don't knock it out of the park right do
30:50your thing by the way that's hard those
30:51are hard-won lessons over a career yeah
30:58learned that I think we stole grounders
30:59in 1997 and we made the pilot of this in
31:022015 2015 so that's a long period of
31:05time over which we figured this stuff
31:07out so for people who aren't aware
31:09there's a very interesting kind of split
31:11and how movies are made and how TV shows
31:12are made at least these days which is
31:14movies are made generally the writer
31:16writes the script turns it over and then
31:17other people run with it and other
31:19people being the presumably the
31:20producers and then particular the
31:21director director director ends up
31:23actually running the project in a lot of
31:24ways right maybe it was a line producer
31:26or something for TV shows especially it
31:28seems like in the last couple decades
31:29you have this concept of showrunner and
31:31it's and and the writers are often or
31:34usually at this point the the show
31:36runners and I'm just I'm picturing I
31:38don't know Louie be mayor or you know
31:40Jack Warner or somebody you know being
31:42told that the writers should run the
31:44project and probably screaming and being
31:46very upset like that would be impossible
31:47and so two-part question what was the
31:48left turn in the industry that caused
31:50the writers to get in a position where
31:51they could be the showrunners and then
31:52and then what did you guys do as writers
31:55to make sure that you specifically were
31:57able to do that so there's this there's
31:58this great book called difficult men by
32:01Brett Martin that's about five
32:04showrunners the David Simon David chase
32:08Vince Gilligan Sean Ryan and one other
32:11I'm not remembering right now this isn't
32:13Breaking Bad the shields that's right
32:16and the wire and but he goes into the
32:19history of it and Hill Street Blues is
32:20when this first because they were making
32:22this kind of serialized show and Steven
32:24Bochco started having meetings with the
32:26directors when the director would come
32:27in he would start having meetings saying
32:29let me get set the tone and he was the
32:31executive but nobody named him
32:32showrunner but he decided that he was
32:35going to had to because of the nature
32:38that show exert upon the situation a
32:41kind of tone a control of the voice and
32:44Antonio shows have been more like law
32:47and order was like the apotheosis of the
32:49other way around which is each each
32:50episode is independent yes Elstree booze
32:56is one of the first shows that sort of
32:58combined these elements for a cop show I
33:00think right for sure but but the answer
33:03your question is about David and me and
33:05about anyone who wants to be a
33:06showrunner which I'm happy that
33:09showrunners officially in the dictionary
33:10now like two years ago it became
33:13because it's a real yeah it's a real job
33:15title now I like what do you do for a
33:16living showrunner it's learning to be a
33:19producer we have 150 people who work
33:21with us but we're in charge of and so it
33:24is quite different but you know as you
33:27know David might directed movies and we
33:28produced movies so for us it was a quite
33:31a natural thing because we've already
33:33rounders was as good an experience as
33:35you could have as a writer and there
33:37were still areas in which we didn't have
33:38enough control over the the voice and
33:41what we also knew was were probably
33:43never gonna get that exact situation
33:45again so we'd better learn how to do
33:47these other parts if we better learn how
33:49to gain control of the you know
33:52mechanisms of production means
33:54production so we realized that we ought
33:59to do that but again that goes back to
34:02this question of a lot often a writer is
34:06take solace while they're whining about
34:09not having control they take solace and
34:11not having control because if you don't
34:12have control you don't take the blame
34:15somebody else as well so if you're
34:16comfortable if you can find a way to be
34:18comfortable with failure which as a
34:19writer you have to or comfortable in
34:20your mistakes then you can be
34:22comfortable in wanting to be the final
34:24voice on what the product is going to be
34:26and we very early on decided and I'll
34:31say this when we work with Steven
34:32Soderbergh we are so glad to have his
34:36voice if he's directing them with man
34:38what a thrill to work with a genius
34:40right and what a thrill to have
34:42Soderbergh make us better to this day I
34:43was 13 yeah but also the girlfriend
34:46experience and he produced solitary man
34:47I mean if Steven called tomorrow and
34:49said let he wanted us to just be just be
34:51screenwriters on a movie he was
34:52directing we would jump at it because
34:54he's gonna make our stuff better so but
34:57if you're comfortable in if you're
35:00comfortable taking the blame if you're
35:02comfortable in a position of control it
35:04makes you incredibly comfortable to then
35:06cede that control or to share with so
35:09much and and so you can pick your spots
35:12then and decide and also because we're
35:14able to make our our own stuff it's the
35:18being in a situation where we are not
35:21the final voice it doesn't make us chafe
35:23against it but I have plenty of that
35:25so I don't have to chafe it against it
35:27over here I'm happy to play this role in
35:29this situation that's why we're good
35:30producing other people's movies when
35:32it's someone else's vision we're great
35:34at just helping them achieve their
35:35vision like Neil burger who's an
35:37incredible incredibly successful
35:38director stretch to the pilot of
35:40billions we produced his first three
35:41movies and it's like hey Neil we're here
35:43to advise counsel help it's your movie
35:46go run with it we're we're comfortable
35:48in any of those different modes
35:50creatively but I think the reason for
35:52that is that we got comfortable early on
35:54with doing the work and failing that's
35:56right we've been talking a lot about
35:58kind of managing up hierarchically so to
36:00speak now turning at the other direction
36:02like managing down in the writers room
36:03you've got like a lot of writers working
36:05with you so how do you now navigate
36:07debates with all those writers in the
36:08writers room like you essentially you're
36:10the showrunners I'm how do you make it
36:12collaborative yet not a democracy at the
36:14same time well it isn't a democracy
36:15right so different showrunners approach
36:19this question in the writers room
36:20differently and some have come up
36:22through a writers room rely on it in a
36:25very deep describe a writers room a
36:27writers room is you get let's say six
36:30people in the room plus a showrunner
36:32there's a whiteboard on the on there and
36:34you start the beginning of the season
36:36and it's like where are we and how do we
36:37fill that in and then each and and but
36:39then it's really hard to describe a
36:41writer's remark because writers rooms
36:43become extensions of the way the
36:45showrunner see the world and the way
36:46they see the world of their shows so
36:48similarly it's a team of people writing
36:50the show together in some in some form
36:52meaning and form meaning maybe everybody
36:55will write an episode
36:56almost all shows the showrunner does the
36:58final pass on all the episodes no matter
36:59who's name is going on on our show
37:02though David and I end up writing most
37:04of the show and we have a we have a
37:07great room of men and women who help us
37:11really break the story arc of the season
37:14and that is an invaluable process tons
37:17of stuff comes out of the room about how
37:19the big arc of the season should occur
37:21about the twists and turns about where
37:23characters and that's a months-long
37:25process of of talking we haven't yet
37:28found and then and then when it comes to
37:30writing the scripts the David and I and
37:34then we have a writer named Adam
37:36Pearlman who's now a co-executive
37:37producer he's a number two person
37:39Adam writes a good amount of the show
37:41too but the truth is it is it is mostly
37:44the us writing it anonymous saying
37:46that's the way it should be on every
37:47show the voice of our show the way that
37:49our show is can't whether you like our
37:51our show is canted in a certain way it
37:53has a very clear voice that somehow the
37:56two of us can do now that said when
37:58someone else if someone on the team
38:00starts a script their name goes on it
38:02ours does not so you got a young hotshot
38:04writer and they have an opportunity to
38:06write on a show this maybe not as let's
38:08say quickly respect or whatever but
38:09maybe it's like they know that they'll
38:10actually get to write scripts and yes
38:13what's your pitch to them of why they
38:15should come work for you give it given
38:16that it's um orchestrate environment I'm
38:18well Adam was somebody who had a lot of
38:20job offers when he came on our show in
38:22the second season he start on the second
38:23season came into the room it's just a
38:25producer level which is kind of a low
38:26level position in terms of the hierarchy
38:29he wasn't helping to be a showrunner but
38:33he came in the room he had incredibly
38:34good ideas he then wrote his first
38:37script that he wrote was very strong and
38:40strong enough that when someone script
38:42came in that was not that strong and
38:43David and I had to work on three other
38:45things we called him in and we said he'd
38:47take a shot at rewriting this your the
38:48things that matter we've given we made
38:50extensive notes Adam go try to rewrite
38:51it he rewrote that script we then sat
38:54with him and talked about how we were
38:55gonna now rewrite it but he did a really
38:57good job we kept being able to go to him
38:59and by the next season season three he
39:02was running the room when we weren't
39:03there we bumped him three position we
39:05bumped him up to co-executive producer
39:06really quickly and said like look you're
39:08our creative partner now like help us do
39:10this so if you're really great if if
39:13you're if you're great in the way that
39:15our show requires right someone made
39:17kill it on another show and just not
39:18kill it on ours I mean the other thing
39:20is they get to be on set watch how a
39:22show is made and be a part of it I'll
39:24say one thing though to answer another
39:25thing that is your question which is
39:27some people have come into the writers
39:28room talented and I found out they came
39:30into the writers room because they like
39:31my podcast but I've had to say to them
39:33I'm this incredibly nurturing
39:34encouraging voice and I want you to know
39:38like I am that for you in your life and
39:39I'll like help you get your next job and
39:41I'll be but but you're gonna turn in a
39:43script and you're not gonna get the
39:45voice on the podcast oh my god you're
39:47gonna get somebody saying to you here's
39:50what doesn't work and so you have to
39:53you're answering this is where in the
39:54major leagues here we have no choice
39:55yeah because we're playing the Red Sox
39:57tomorrow so we have to be ready to we
40:00have to be ready to get in there and
40:03so that's happen twice so one more
40:06question trousers which goes to the kind
40:08of current state of the industry so
40:09rounders was made in Windows 7 so that
40:12was the heyday of kind of the high
40:14status independent movie yeah like
40:16medium budget super high status and 14:5
40:19we made that for yeah okay yeah and then
40:21as you said like it you know it wasn't a
40:23huge commercial hit but then it had this
40:24long long life you know Kenan kind of
40:26you know plays out through now and
40:27probably long into the future if that
40:30movie had not gotten made and a movie
40:31like that had not got made it just did
40:33nobody had made kind of the definitive
40:34poker movie and you and David entered
40:36the industry today at age 25 or 30 or
40:39whatever it is and decided to make that
40:40move or that project today what would be
40:43different about the process people
40:44constantly ask me how to break in to the
40:46business and my answer is I have no idea
40:49I did it 23 years ago okay I can't help
40:51you I wish I could help tell you how to
40:53break in the conditions on the ground
40:55are entirely different the last thing I
40:57want to be is some general back in thing
40:59ignoring what the sergeant says like I
41:01have no idea um I do know that what I
41:04know is that well I think it would
41:05resemble a movie that I love and that
41:07launched many careers which is margin
41:09call but whereas rounders was a fourteen
41:11five I think margin call was made for a
41:13million two and scraped together by
41:15commercial director and they had limited
41:17sets and that now because margin call
41:19has a lot of similarities to rounders
41:20it's set in an insular world with a
41:22language of its own it's really it
41:24doesn't um spell anything out if you
41:26like you have to be willing to describe
41:28it's kind of the definitive movie of the
41:30September 2008 financial meltdown it
41:33kind of takes place overnight
41:33effectively in Lehman Brothers yeah it's
41:36like a brothers and it's actually a very
41:39chilling but people in finance Goldman
41:41both Goldman right do they survive okay
41:43it's cuz it's it said at Goldman and
41:46it's about the the the willingness of
41:49gold and they never say it's go MIT it's
41:50about the willingness of it's about a
41:52decision that goldman sachs made to get
41:55rid of their toxic assets but i think
41:58that movies really analogous to rounders
42:00because it is doing a bunch of the stuff
42:02that we did it's you have to just like
42:06and you have to understand what the
42:08stakes are and um but he had to look
42:11they made that movie for a tenth of what
42:14we may see they had Jeremy Irons in it
42:17yes yes top end they put the top end
42:20people but it was still they had to make
42:21it for like a million ahead of clocks I
42:22know you into maybe okay it's much
42:24harder to make those mid mid that those
42:27sort of mid budget fourteen to twenty
42:29five or thirty million dollar movies
42:31they're Netflix does it right you can do
42:33it at Netflix now which is probably
42:35where it would happen but and networ you
42:38would try to tell the story in a
42:39novelistic lands how you know would you
42:42pitch today young David and young Brian
42:43show up would you would yes would you
42:46pitch rounders for television or for a
42:47film no you would pitch the world in the
42:49underground card rooms for television
42:51okay because I think a lot of that
42:52that's where this stuff lives and that
42:53would have been I think a fascinating
42:55thing to see also David and I grew up
42:57watching movies we loved television but
43:00our shared language our lingua franca
43:03was movies we were quoting movies at
43:06each other from when we were little kids
43:08we would watch movies 20 times you know
43:10we watched stripes together at least 20
43:13times and diner and many more movies
43:16where they became the way we
43:18communicated and so it made sense to us
43:21to go make movies since then you know
43:24things like The Sopranos West Wing Larry
43:27Sanders madman showed up and showed us
43:30the way they lit the way sort of for us
43:33to think about television yeah that's
43:35actually huge we always talk about fits
43:36mark and I television so much better
43:38than movies unbelievable it's I think
43:40it's actually it's the best shows they
43:41are novels movies still more like a play
43:47shows we definitely definitely that way
43:51where that's we're trying to tell
43:52novelistic stories deepening characters
43:54in challenging situations I call it
43:56visual literature it's exactly what I
43:58love that term so we you came up in the
44:00music industry I'm a you know I watch me
44:01I was involved in the you know the
44:03internet I was involved in Napster but I
44:05knew the guys really well and so we both
44:07watched you know for various
44:08professional purchas kind of the music
44:10industry confront digital distribution
44:12and basically just like implode right
44:14yeah get run over by the din confronted
44:16right unfortunately they didn't convince
44:17bread it just stood there and got right
44:19here they were like you
44:20they just got run over so so I fully
44:42I'll just confess I fully expected the
44:44same thing is gonna happen to TV like
44:45you use Napster for music BitTorrent for
44:47TV it's just like it's just obvious same
44:49season have no TV it's just gonna get
44:50over and then the this is the most like
44:52amazing thing in the world happened
44:53which is the exact opposite thing
44:54happened the opposite happened which is
44:56like this and like the creative
44:57explosion of all time like the you know
45:00and you've probably seen you know John
45:01Landgraf for as FX is always talking man
45:03brilliant man you're a great programmer
45:05but but you know he talks about the
45:07content bubble the TV bubble and it's
45:08like I don't know every year now it's
45:09like 500 original scripted dramas are
45:12getting made I think yeah and so he's
45:16been calling this a bubble the whole
45:17time but like it keeps it keeps
45:18expanding and I mean then we all get to
45:19you know you get to make it but like we
45:20get to watch it and it's just like just
45:21I like routinely see shows now where I'm
45:23just like you know 20 years ago this
45:24would have been the best show in the
45:25entire fact that the line hunter in the
45:27crown came out like in the same year on
45:28Netflix oh my god using to me those are
45:30the best show of an era ever ever like
45:33the crown is as good as you can make
45:35something and like I can try to make
45:36Marc watch it yeah isn't I can get I can
45:38give you the language by which to watch
45:39it no I'm totally nitrogen monarchy I
45:40hate it nothing about that is
45:42interesting to me the show is just the
45:44most beautifully written and so here's
45:48my question let's assume it's not a
45:49bubble let's assume it is the medium of
45:50our time and let's assume it kind of
45:51keeps expanding so this won't make sense
45:53but the amazing thing is it seems like
45:54the more shows get made it seems like
45:56the quality average quality level is
45:57rising and and and you would expect I
46:00think the opposite you'd respect every
46:01quality level to fall cause you'd expect
46:02to run out of talent at some point I
46:04agree and so where is all this talent
46:06coming from I have no idea okay so were
46:09there just all these geniuses out there
46:10who just never had the opportunity to do
46:12it and now they do or is there something
46:13happening in the industry where people
46:14are being trained or maybe it's the love
46:17of television so it perpetuates itself
46:19and we might be in a golden age where
46:20artists are apprentice in some way for
46:23other artists and learning and figuring
46:25it out you know I have the luxury not to
46:27think about the 560 shows or to
46:29appreciate what Landgraf says and know
46:30he's a brilliant guy without having to
46:33or feel any way about it because I just
46:35wanna I still go back to the same thing
46:37I just want to get in the room and get
46:38the feeling I get when I'm making the
46:39thing I want to be walk on the set and
46:41see Damien and Paul and Maggie and aja
46:43and be able to work with them and and
46:45you know we've just found a way to make
46:50decisions still based on our curiosity
46:52our obsession so if we're interested in
46:54the US Open in 1991 at Jimmy Connors
46:56we're gonna make a documentary about it
46:57because we'll really enjoy the process
46:59of making it and we have faith that
47:00there will be people who will want to
47:01see it I was thinking my answer to
47:03Mark's question I'm time a can watch
47:04this movie gully boy and it's a
47:07Bollywood movie that's produced by NAS
47:08but the to me the point is that
47:10technology is democratizing access to
47:12watching all this literature I don't
47:14understand man is not able to make I
47:24wanted to ask you that was your the
47:25question yes yes you have been partners
47:27now with David for how long over 20
47:29years it's an equal partner has always
47:30been for the BOK equal partnership only
47:3250/50 so how do you how do you and says
47:37like I want to have a partnership like
47:38that I want to have a career where I
47:39have a partner like that like how do you
47:40ever win the first day but do you
47:42remember the forest first Matt how funny
47:43it seems the busman me you Ben and David
47:46we were sitting there and it was just
47:48like this is a rare thing to have two
47:50sets of people who just it in the same
47:54way it makes sense when someone sees you
47:56in van and talked here for five minutes
47:57when someone sees David and me and talk
47:59they talked to us for five minutes the
48:01whole thing just kind of makes sense
48:02like in the ways that we can finish each
48:04other sentences but also are different
48:07in some significant ways probably we
48:09only look if someone else heard us
48:10talking where it may be very similar but
48:12the two of us understand the ways in
48:14which were complementary to each other
48:15and the key is to really regard the
48:19other person as incredibly smart to
48:20really always know that their motive is
48:23to make the work better so much of the
48:26stuff sounds like platitudes but like
48:28trying your hardest to get your emotions
48:31out of these decisions and being
48:33rational I think the key to having a
48:35good partnership is not about looking
48:37for the partner it's about how can you
48:38make yourself be the best version of
48:40yourself in a way that compliments this
48:42other person that who you respect and
48:46work you admire and so that's all hard
48:49work in life right it's the same thing
48:51in a marriage or any kind of a any kind
48:52of kind of a partnership but it's about
48:56all of us even the most rational
48:58smartest among us have emotional
49:00reactions sometimes and the question is
49:03okay it's not to not have an emotional
49:05reaction but it's to not let the
49:06emotional reaction just dictate your
49:08response so if that means you know that
49:10you normally you're the worst of you
49:14instantly reacts with anger then find a
49:17way to take them to say hey I don't want
49:21to react to anger I'm gonna go take a
49:22run and then I'm gonna come back and
49:24this is stuff you figure out over a long
49:26period of time but the more you know
49:28that the success or failure of a
49:30partnership is based entirely on how you
49:32comport yourself the better off that
49:34you'll be it's not the other guys you
49:40know so the way I described the way by
49:43the way this comes up a lot in our
49:45business you know Ben and I have this
49:46kind of partnership look lucky for me
49:47but also that you know we there's a lot
49:49of like founder and then CEO I sometimes
49:51we have founder CEOs which was like your
49:53showrunner model but sometimes we have a
49:54founder and there's a CEO who's brought
49:56in or promoted inside the company and
49:57then you and then they have to be part
49:58you know if you want the magic of the
49:59founder and the company be well run they
50:01need to have that kind of partnership
50:02and so what I always tell them I kind of
50:04try to put a point on it and kind of say
50:05it has to be more important to each of
50:07you that it has to be more importantly
50:09each of you that the other one put it it
50:14has to be more important that the other
50:15one gets to make the decision then that
50:17you get to prove yourself right and you
50:19have to both have that attitude like if
50:21one of you has that attitude then just
50:23that person is just gonna run over the
50:24other ones if you both have the attitude
50:25where your reflexive view is you know
50:26what this is a debate it's an argument
50:28it's 50/50 it's a toss-up which a lot of
50:30these things are we're gonna do it your
50:31way if both people have that as their
50:33default point of view all right then you
50:35can navigate through these things and
50:36then then you get in the positive
50:38version the deadlock which is know let's
50:40do it your way okay now we have very
50:42composedly right there'll be e-mails
50:43back and forth about a thing in and
50:45editing where one of us laughing ID and
50:48the other one will say my instinct was
50:50that to go the other way with it but you
50:52know what let's let's let's do it that
50:54way and it's not even a it has to not be
50:56a move I think you have to actually have
50:58to really be a lot all right let's there
51:00was a thing yesterday where I I saw
51:02something and I had a notion about it
51:04and David sent me back well the few
51:07demand things that are good so normally
51:08when we're doing edits on when we're
51:11comment making notes on a cut in order
51:13to do edits our two assistants we share
51:16to us it's not like one's his assistant
51:17one's mine we have two assistants who
51:19help the two of us normally they're on
51:21the conversations so that they can then
51:23collate the notes and given to the
51:25editor before we go talk to the editor
51:26but if there's something that suddenly
51:28is gonna we see really differently we
51:31just immediately take it to a private
51:32communication right we take the we take
51:34the audience out of it we never talked
51:37about this but we just do it we take the
51:38audience out of it because it shows
51:39that's not performing performing and
51:41we're also not worried about being
51:42judged but so yesterday was one of those
51:43things we just saw one little tiny
51:45moment slightly differently I wrote this
51:47thing like I think we should do this and
51:48then Dave wrote me separately and said
51:49you know I don't I don't see the scene
51:51that way here's what I think's going on
51:52and I still saw the scene the way that I
51:54saw it but I just didn't know he's
51:55written yeah let's just do that it makes
51:58total sense like let's go through the
51:59next bunch of iterations of the of the
52:00cut with it in like that and in the hope
52:03that I'm just gonna come around to
52:04seeing it that way or let's show it with
52:06some other people this way and let's see
52:08what what comes out of it but I mean
52:10very easy and I see a lot of people fall
52:13into the trap of trying to argue well I
52:15look for it by the way I think about is
52:16I look for as many chances as I can to
52:17let him make the decision right and then
52:19and then to your point like if I really
52:20feel it as a consequence of that I build
52:21up so much trust that's a really great
52:26point you can this is important to
52:29attach that which is because all the
52:31time Dave is willing to say to me let's
52:33do that when he wrote me and said like
52:34hey I think this is different than you
52:36think it is it was just so easy to go
52:38well yeah of course dude go let's do
52:40that thing because you're always looking
52:42at me the way I want it yeah as I am
52:44with so it I was I'm certain none of
52:46that is um a tactic or strategy with
52:49Dave and me it just so happens to be the
52:51way that the two of us interact a quick
52:54question on this though it's just from
52:55like an advice point of view because you
52:57you've talked about this how do you
52:58your own personal psychology around
53:01anger and creative impulse and ego kind
53:05of in the prot in this process even
53:07beyond the partnership
53:08well meditation helps mm-hmm it's just I
53:10mean I know as I said before some of
53:12this stuff sounds so reductive and so
53:14much like platitudes but you know I love
53:16the Tim Ferriss has said out of the
53:17whatever thousand people he's
53:19interviewed who he views as highly
53:21successful creatives like 92% of them
53:25meditate and I don't think that's just
53:27buying this I don't think it's just that
53:29everyone's decided to buy in so I'm in
53:30the a person yeah I know I'm mister anti
53:32meditation I'm not philosophically anti
53:37meditation I personally attend
53:38meditation I cannot imagine sitting
53:40still so this is my question so so to
53:45talk to me as a practical person who's
53:48interested in performance and not
53:49particularly interested in introspection
53:51like I do okay simple it's kind I do
53:53transcend meditation so it's the easiest
53:55one because it's just quietly saying a
53:57mantra to yourself for 20 minutes right
53:59define Transcendental Meditation
54:01meditation is you because I have a DHD
54:05I can't sit still I have to check my all
54:08that stuff except I really do this twice
54:11a day 20 minutes and what I found and
54:14it's just personal but what I found was
54:16it like reduced the physical
54:17manifestations of anxiety by a lot and
54:19when you get from me when I getting
54:21anxiety out of the equation I just think
54:23more clearly and more creatively so it's
54:25and it's not I'd see there are things
54:27people build it up too much right it's
54:29it's not some magic pill it doesn't like
54:31immediately make you in a somewhat
54:35calmed but it just kind of takes like a
54:38little bit of the tumult out and a lot
54:43of forms of meditation require you to
54:46force out the thoughts as you said it
54:47require you to be introspective or
54:49require you'd focus on your breathing
54:51Trane's limitation all you're doing is
54:54sort of allowing this mantra to be said
54:56over and over and if thoughts come in
54:57that's fine you just kind of let the
54:58thoughts come in and then you kind of
55:00return to this mantra and I'll say the
55:03results for me so I was hugely skeptical
55:05but I was at a point where I was I was
55:07feeling like I needed something I had
55:12and so in reading about I read David
55:14Lynch's book catching the big fish and a
55:16couple of other books and it made me
55:18interested enough and I went and sat
55:19down with Bob Roth who runs the Lynch
55:20Foundation and I said look I think
55:22you're probably a cult thanks dad I'm an
55:28you know I know these are like Sanskrit
55:29words that have some holiness to them so
55:32none of that stuff works for me so talk
55:34to me about why and I should even be
55:36sitting here and you know Bob was like
55:38well why don't you read this book and
55:39why don't you read this study and why
55:41don't you look at these aegs and let's
55:42talk about what this tool does in terms
55:45of affecting the loops in your brain and
55:47your brain waves and in through that
55:49conversation I was like well okay let me
55:50you know I'll learn and within I'll say
55:54like within two months I noticed in my
55:59family noticed that I was just in a much
56:03better place and again it doesn't mean
56:08like we're all a dick sometimes it
56:10doesn't mean I'm never short with anyone
56:12or that I'm never worried of course I am
56:14I'm a human being but it means that I
56:16can manage it much in a much better way
56:18and in and if the only thing I got out
56:20of it was I was sitting and meditating
56:22and when you're not trying to think of
56:26ideas but like I I've solved many tricky
56:32story problems I've come out of a
56:34meditation and just kind of had the
56:36answer show up now that that could just
56:38be a function of like I turned
56:39everything off and I consciously wasn't
56:41thinking about it and so you know I
56:43allowed that's great perfect what how it
56:47whatever it is it's not surprising to me
56:49that so many of us who are high
56:53achievers aggressive in going after what
56:56we want willing to take risks that
56:59finding some tool that gives you some
57:02enforced break from that it's not
57:05surprising to me that that then when you
57:07then come out of that you're kind of
57:09firing again but right that's what makes
57:12sense to me and so who's Bob Bob Roth
57:15runs David Lynch foundation David Lynch
57:17foundation is like at the center of
57:19transmittal meditation Lynch had decided
57:21if David the real David Lynch director
57:22David David Lynch is the biggest David
57:25recent Transcendental Meditation is
57:27popular in America Lynch credits TM with
57:29making him the artist that Twin Peaks
57:33blue velvet oh yeah all that he started
57:36doing like 40 years ago 50 years ago and
57:38he's wanted to start a thing that would
57:39give it to kids and post-traumatic
57:40stress people so he started this
57:42foundation and the guy who runs it and
57:45who's like sort of the kind of the head
57:47of TM and America's this guy Bob Roth
57:49the best part of that story by the way
57:50though is that you're literally arguing
57:52to Mark's point about this tent because
57:54mark essentially set it up as a tension
57:55between performance and introspection
57:57and you're essentially arguing that
57:58introspection leads to better
57:59performance I know I would argue that's
58:01not introspection like my journaling is
58:03definitely the a certain kind of
58:04intersection serves me but meditation is
58:06like the calming of the thoughts or the
58:08the stilling of it or that just it's
58:11just a respite in a way it's it's it's a
58:14respite from the perpetual thinking
58:17machine thing right I think the idea is
58:20that them you've these these thoughts
58:21these pattern thoughts and there are
58:22some thoughts that you know you have but
58:24then there are these like patterns of
58:26thoughts that you have that are probably
58:28a little bit disruptive and what but
58:30they're loop and when you start to say
58:32this mantra you're interrupting right
58:35suddenly that's what the sound is and
58:37the other thing just dissipates and you
58:39get calm I'm not trying to think about
58:41my life when I'm meditating um just
58:43trying to take a break yeah okay well
58:46it's been the last few minutes just
58:47talking about billions specifically
58:49podcast friends we're about to go into
58:51some light spoiler alerts particularly
58:53from the last and early seasons so if
58:55you haven't seen them already you've
58:56been warned I have to ask this question
58:59because you know that scene from as good
59:01as it gets where there's a female
59:02character that goes to Jack Nicholson I
59:04mean yes I just sacrificed and then I
59:15take away reason and I disagree wildly
59:24disagree with his ass
59:26which is good to hear but the best
59:28characters on billions are quite
59:31honestly the female and transgender
59:33characters of maggie siff who plays
59:36Wendy Rhodes and Asia Kate Dillon who
59:38plays Taylor I mean I want to ask you
59:41how do you do this incredible character
59:42development for these female characters
59:44you know the hardest questions to answer
59:45are the how do you do the thing and I
59:48mean because that that is that's the
59:51part that's not there is no intellectual
59:53answer that question that's the part of
59:55it that either makes you someone who
59:58does this or doesn't do it the most fun
01:00:01part for me is when I'm sitting on my
01:00:03couch actually writing the scenes right
01:00:05I have music blasting able to put the
01:00:09computer in the laptop actually on my
01:00:11lap and I'm able to sort of fly and
01:00:15that's the part that isn't intellectual
01:00:18at all it's the result of all the
01:00:20intellectual work you've ever done it's
01:00:22the result of your curiosity it's the
01:00:23result of everything you've read of
01:00:25everything that you've watched of
01:00:26everything that you've been a part of
01:00:28and then you want to just allow it to
01:00:32happen and so we honor these characters
01:00:36and Wendy Rhodes when we and you know
01:00:41invented that character and then rotor
01:00:43we certainly know who that person is
01:00:45very well but you have to make these
01:00:48fictional characters feel incredibly
01:00:49real to you and you want to write them
01:00:52smarter than you are and that's the only
01:00:54I can say is we want every character and
01:00:56billions to be smarter than we are so a
01:00:58quick question about Taylor as a
01:00:59character because billions the next
01:01:02season is now dropping you ended the
01:01:04last season with attention between the
01:01:06head of axe capital and his protege
01:01:09Taylor starting their own firm and I
01:01:13still relate to Taylor's character like
01:01:15you won't believe there's a sense of
01:01:17like unbounded him but you trying to
01:01:19tell mark something unbounded ambition
01:01:24with Taylor and acts initially nurtures
01:01:27it and then essentially squashes it I'm
01:01:30like Taylor's are really interesting
01:01:32archetype actually both that trailers
01:01:34transgender and that you have this
01:01:35essential Universal archetype in every
01:01:37organization tell me how you think about
01:01:39as a character well yet tailors just the
01:01:42most highly competent person and is a
01:01:46brilliant person and if this is a long
01:01:49novelistic piece we're still sort of at
01:01:51the the middle the beginning of the
01:01:54middle of the story and so that kind of
01:01:57person has to be tempted right has to be
01:01:59tested if you don't test right it's if
01:02:02you don't test the morality of those
01:02:04kind of characters how do you know
01:02:05whether they're really moral or not they
01:02:07don't get lost for a little while how
01:02:09did they become found and so that's
01:02:11where we find Taylor and in this season
01:02:12I don't wanna spoil any okay I have
01:02:14another quick one I'm just dying to ask
01:02:15and lightning around these and then
01:02:16we'll wrap up I want to ask you about
01:02:18some of the music choices you make and
01:02:20one specific one last season one of the
01:02:22most compelling raw music choices you
01:02:25made is in a scene for those who haven't
01:02:27caught up all the way I'll just give a
01:02:28little teaser where acts essentially is
01:02:30let out of a situation where he was in
01:02:33trouble and he's coming back to his pad
01:02:35and they it's literally you guys portray
01:02:36it visually as a completely raw bachelor
01:02:38pad and the song was street punk Vince
01:02:42cables it's so stripped him bare down to
01:02:48just he's a street punk tell me about
01:02:50that decision and that choice I mean
01:02:52David and I choose all the music for the
01:02:54show together and we're both music
01:02:56fanatics and trade music all the time
01:02:59and so and we put music in the scripts
01:03:03so when we're writing that script we're
01:03:05going back and forth about what it
01:03:07should be it's a hip-hop if it is who is
01:03:09it and why we had been staples on the
01:03:11list since the end of the first season I
01:03:13think when his first record came out
01:03:14Norv noir fizz what I thought we would
01:03:16use from the beginning but that moment
01:03:20you know at that moment people really
01:03:22understand what happens when acts gets
01:03:24in that hot tub and again that was in
01:03:26the script we that was what our goal was
01:03:27and then we had to work incredibly hard
01:03:30with our brilliant editor you figured
01:03:31out how to make that sequence work the
01:03:37way we had had it in our in our heads
01:03:39Marnie Mayer who edited that episode
01:03:41really worked incredibly hard to build
01:03:44that sequence so that it matched and
01:03:46then exceeded what we we had written and
01:03:49Marnie's been with the show from the
01:03:50very beginning she Internet
01:03:51Naiya majority of them of the show from
01:03:52from the start and are really and truly
01:03:55our creative partners they're the
01:03:56guardians of the tone of the show with
01:03:59alright last one last one and then we
01:04:01can wrap up so in season one does this
01:04:03count as a spoiler alert because it's so
01:04:04early I'll just give it a high level
01:04:06we'll decide okay scene where you
01:04:09essentially set up acts the entire
01:04:12audience thinks that he's gonna cheat on
01:04:14his wife yeah and I spent that entire
01:04:16episode on the edge of my seat worried
01:04:18that he was gonna cheat on his way this
01:04:19is an acceptable spoiler but just
01:04:27quickly on that lake that was obviously
01:04:29deliberate like tell me about the
01:04:31decision-making behind that so what I
01:04:32was saying the thing about sitting on
01:04:33the couch writing and and how that is
01:04:36this incredibly free process then you
01:04:39have to rewrite and then you have to
01:04:41think about how it fits into the holes
01:04:42so the whole gag is to write with total
01:04:45freedom and then rewrite with total
01:04:47clarity and so when we're thinking about
01:04:49whether a character will behave in way a
01:04:51or way B we're thinking about what they
01:04:54would do in the moment and then we're
01:04:55thinking about the ramifications of that
01:04:56so if the character did decision a well
01:05:01what does that then say about it that
01:05:03character as we go through the rest of
01:05:04the series which will leave us in a
01:05:06place where there's more optionality and
01:05:09and it's clear in that case which one
01:05:11would leave us with more optionality
01:05:12that's great okay what can I say one
01:05:14thing though one of the great things
01:05:16about something like this is that
01:05:17someone like Mark can do the work he
01:05:18does and then I can do the work that I
01:05:20do and if there's some sort of a mutual
01:05:22sort of fascination with the work you
01:05:25get to connect with people on that and
01:05:26and that is one of these sort of
01:05:28unintended joys of the work that I get
01:05:31to do and so that's why I was happy to
01:05:33fly out here and do this podcast because
01:05:34that we've gotten to know each other
01:05:36over the last few years and it's been a
01:05:37real pleasure thanks for having me here
01:05:39thank you Brian thank you so much for
01:05:41joining the eight 6nc podcast Brian and
01:05:42for coming out here we really appreciate
01:05:44it and billions in the next season is
01:05:45now out March 17th
01:05:47thanks Brian so happy to be here thanks
01:05:49guys thank you and by the way people may
01:05:51not know I actually play on the show I
01:05:53actually play wags under under under a
01:05:56that's why you never seen me in a cameo
01:05:58I thought we weren't supposed to
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