00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael
00:02Copeland and we are here today with
00:05Peter Levine General Partner here at
00:07Andreessen Horowitz and on the phone
00:09Paul along CEO and founder of data
00:12gravity Paulo welcome thank you Peter
00:16welcome to you too I guess yeah thank
00:19so Paul you guys have recently come out
00:22of stealth mode and I want to dig in to
00:25sort of we want to focus on the future
00:27but I want to get a little bit about the
00:29past because I know you and Peter have
00:31talked about the data center and storage
00:33in particular for a long time so you
00:35know give us just a short synopsis of
00:37what data gravity does and then I want
00:39to backtrack and talk about how you guys
00:41got to where you are sure so first of
00:46all the storage is incredibly
00:48conservative technology area so what you
00:51see is you know other places where
00:54they're innovating you know 10 or 20
00:56years before stores will catch up but
00:58it's not usually the leader but the
01:00storage it's growing at that rate it's
01:02gonna have to start to take a leadership
01:03position instead of the evolution of how
01:06the technology works we first sort of
01:08noticed this you know as the founder of
01:11ecologic or co-founder of ecologic in
01:13that you know storage hadn't started
01:14automating everything was done by hand
01:17kind of an erector set back in 2000 2001
01:21but if you thought about it at that
01:22point the network had started to get
01:24smarter you know not brilliant but in
01:26order your servers and operating systems
01:28were getting smarter and had been since
01:30the 90s but the doors hadn't got there
01:33so you know equal logic was all about
01:35automation and being able to grow then
01:38dial forward to like 2012 when the
01:42gravity was founded and you start to see
01:45infrastructure was getting smarter and
01:47smarter and things were getting
01:48intelligent in the data center the
01:50stores were still staying as a container
01:52and ignorant and it couldn't stay that
01:54way because it is for the center where
01:56everything caches in the data center
01:59it's where the assets actually live it
02:00needed to start to get smarter and be
02:03able to actually provide value and
02:06mitigate risk for the things that was
02:09holding and that's when Peter and I
02:11started talking about you know this is
02:13door just gonna have to do yeah Peter
02:15from from your perspective you you you
02:17saw or you see you know plenty of
02:20companies who are kind of poking around
02:21in the space yeah what did you see at
02:23the time as a problem and then how did
02:25Pallas kind of approach start to address
02:28that well first of all I got to know
02:32Paula not through data gravity I got to
02:35know Paula after I had of course
02:38everyone knows Paula she's the
02:40co-founder of equal logic which she just
02:42referenced but you know Paula is the you
02:46know it's the goddess of storage in my
02:47mind and you know I got to know Paula
02:51through through me coming here to
02:55andreessen horowitz and I saw yeah I
02:57would see storage deals all the time and
02:59the first person who I would call as a
03:02sounding board was Paula right Paula
03:05what do you think about this and what do
03:07you think about that and the clarity and
03:10depth of her answers was you know second
03:13to none it was just you know kind of
03:16awesome and I'm like wow if I actually
03:19could have the opportunity to work with
03:21Paula I would do that in a second and
03:23that's really where our relationship
03:26started when the opportunity came up to
03:30work with Paula and make an investment
03:32in data gravity our belief was that you
03:37know to exactly what Paul is saying
03:39Storage had to get more intelligent
03:42we're you know storage has been about
03:44speeds and feeds and this whole notion
03:47of providing data awareness and data
03:51intelligence into the storage array
03:53appeared to be kind of the next
03:56generation of where storage was going
03:59right no one else was doing this no one
04:01else is doing it and so that was the
04:03that was the kind of that was the aha
04:05moment for me I mean to be clear let's
04:07describe the sort of state of storage in
04:09a minute it may be dumb is maybe the
04:11wrong we're good and maybe it's not the
04:12wrong word I mean it was all about
04:13capacity and reliability and nothing
04:17else I can start with this Paula can
04:20jump on look storage storage has been
04:26Smart's has always happened above the
04:28storage layer and probably the biggest
04:31innovation to happen in storage you know
04:33storage has gone through a couple of
04:34transformations it started really dumb
04:37in what's called a block device and a
04:41block sounds pretty dumb it's about as
04:42dumb as what block sounds like and then
04:45look dumb as a block and then the next
04:48the next evolution in storage was the
04:52notion of files right and so that's when
04:54network attached storage is typically
04:57correlated with files and that made
05:00things slightly more intelligent right
05:03you know a file is pretty dumb in and of
05:04itself and since those days the format
05:08of storage hasn't really changed it's
05:12then about speeds and feeds and capacity
05:14and this whole notion of kind of
05:16solid-state disk and solid-state storage
05:18that's really been the exciting part of
05:21storage the perceived exciting part of
05:23storage is about you know going from
05:25spinning disk to solid-state disk what
05:27has been the that's been the big focus
05:29of storage but in terms of the
05:31intelligence and the structure of what
05:34actually lives out on the storage array
05:37whether it's spinning disk or SSD it's
05:40still either files or dumb blocks and
05:43what data gravity does is it takes this
05:45to a whole new level and really provides
05:48a an entirely new way of thinking about
05:51storage and the intelligence moves from
05:53files to data intelligence so tell me
05:57then why you know if the intelligence in
06:00the system typically lied above the
06:02storage or at least wasn't in storage
06:04you know what why storage like why is
06:07does that sort of the logical next step
06:09why not you know keep the intelligence
06:11someplace else yeah that's a really good
06:14question I hear that a lot so when I
06:16tell people is you know there's sort of
06:18been this pride in the storage that
06:19storage is a container it doesn't
06:22doesn't try to poke it once actually
06:25it's containing it tries to start
06:27something neutral so what you do is if
06:29you think about it sort of an analogy so
06:32instead you've got somebody with a
06:34high-speed telescope trying to figure
06:36out what's going on in your house
06:38instead of just being in the house and
06:39looking around and telling people
06:42distantly right and so when you look at
06:46a distance you might not know who you
06:47might know it you know a person six feet
06:50tall and blonde but you know you might
06:52not know it was Robert Redford or
06:53whatever right but if you were in the
06:55house and you were looking at it you
06:56could see well that you know that's a
06:58shelf and that's a book and what the
07:00telescope and sort of a blurred view you
07:03can make some assumptions and some
07:04assertions and then you just can start
07:06to do all these really complicated you
07:08know multi-camera things or you could
07:10just stand there and tell them right so
07:11it felt like just standing there or in
07:13the house we can tell you what's going
07:15on we can see all the rooms we don't
07:17have to have that complexity or that
07:19guessing so it just felt like it was
07:20time to say you know the data is not
07:22hidden it's just being viewed from a
07:25very complicated expensive slanted
07:27funded way why not just be inside and
07:30just just surface it right if you know
07:31if you want to know about it just tell
07:33them and that's kind of where the idea
07:34came from that make it that yeah and
07:38tell me then why well how long it took
07:43you to sort of see this problem and then
07:46solve it and you know was it solvable
07:49years ago or did it doesn't sort of take
07:51this continuum of of things moving to
07:54the cloud to make it possible
07:55oh absolutely I don't think the cloud
07:58really has anything to do with making it
08:00possible Moore's Law has helped a little
08:02bit so really what happened is when I
08:04first thought about this it wasn't
08:06possible and that was when I was
08:09thinking about it in 2011 and 2012
08:11because if you look at the storage
08:13architecture where it was today as Peter
08:15talks about kind of block and file and
08:17you tried to fit into that existing
08:19architecture this isn't possible but if
08:22you think about a new architecture and
08:24then you take all those great storage
08:26innovations around flash you know
08:28multi-core processors multi socket more
08:32memory and you'd start with the new
08:34architecture and then you have a new set
08:36of tools you can just build a better
08:37house right right and so we need a bunch
08:41of and what to come together but first
08:43you had to get over the fact that the
08:44storage architecture couldn't stay the
08:45same it couldn't get smart and stay the
08:48same and once you do that it's kind of
08:51like you can't raise
08:51on a ranch at the foundation isn't solid
08:54right it's gonna stay a one floor
08:55building until you fix the foundation or
08:59until you pull it out put in a new one
09:00so in our case we had to pull out the
09:02foundation and put in a new one
09:03and once you thought about how that was
09:05going to look then building became much
09:07easier but you had to make that quantum
09:09so Peter for you and then Paul I want
09:12you know to add to this but you know we
09:14talked about looking around a house and
09:16seeing what's on the shelf here's these
09:17actual specific books but if I'm a
09:19company like who needs us and what does
09:22this start to allow me to do oh great so
09:28one of the things allows you to do is
09:29become much more so people talk about
09:32having terabytes to petabytes of storage
09:34they save it forever because they don't
09:36know what's in it and they don't know
09:37how to clean it up so the first thing
09:39you want is some file analytics so you
09:41can actually get a pretty fine-grained
09:44say you know they do this kinds of data
09:47this is this kind of data this has value
09:51to me because you know it's got these
09:52kind of but IP in it it's got contracts
09:55and it knows about customers doesn't
09:57have value to me it's the videos that we
09:59took ten years ago that we're never
10:00going to use you want to get a wait a
10:02map within the house and be able to use
10:03that space efficiently right the next
10:06thing you want to do is you want to get
10:08the uptime from the data so you want to
10:10make sure you can find and reuse things
10:12quickly you want to make sure that you
10:14can correlate these are like tell me
10:16about what's going on you know if this
10:19was insurance between you know what are
10:21the claims coming in and my unstructured
10:23data that would tell me that I've got a
10:25mold issue or in some states and what
10:27would tell me about how tos are tracking
10:30to part numbers and sales are up as I
10:32look at my unstructured data so how do I
10:34get upside on the data but as
10:36importantly is how do I cap my downside
10:38so as you hear about all these data
10:40privacy issues small companies have the
10:44same and midsize companies have the same
10:45issues with data privacy as larger
10:48companies it's just not well publicized
10:50and then fines are the same the fines
10:52are the same the state and the federal
10:54government don't care whether you're a
10:56Fortune 1000 company or you're a
10:5850-person company when it comes to
11:00allowing like personally identifiable
11:03information to be accessed
11:05inappropriately and so you really need
11:07to make sure that you're managing your
11:09unstructured data properly because
11:11ignorance of compliance is
11:13non-compliance and the fines are
11:15probably more than the cost of the
11:16storage so understanding and using your
11:19assets well making sure you leverage the
11:22assets you have in a positive way and
11:24making sure you tap your downside and
11:26the storage can help you do that in a
11:28way that doesn't require you to spend
11:29any extra time managing your storage and
11:32that's what sort of data gravity brings
11:34to the table so Peter when you were
11:36looking at data gravity in this problem
11:38again like our customers they're asking
11:40for all those things you just described
11:42Paula you know security privacy etc but
11:47they don't look for it from their
11:48storage Peter how did you kind of view
11:52the marketplace and its readiness for
11:54something like this right now the way
11:57people solve this is through a host of
12:00ancillary products you know as Paula
12:02describes that they buy telescopes to
12:04look into the house and binoculars
12:06telescopes monoculars whatever right and
12:09that becomes the those are all expensive
12:15outside-of-the-box products that people
12:17typically buy it might be data analytics
12:19products that might be you know security
12:22products and and my view was is that
12:26with Paula behind this inventing really
12:29what I see is the next wave of storage
12:32innovation I think there's really the
12:35opportunity to provide real insight and
12:38value from inside the house and
12:41eliminate all the complexity and all
12:43these additional products that one needs
12:46to buy to get half the capability that
12:49data gravity is providing so look there
12:52is an education but the value
12:55proposition and the elegance by which
12:58data gravity is solving the problem I
13:00really believe that this what data
13:02gravity is doing becomes a property of
13:06all storage into the future that is
13:08everyone is going to you know build some
13:12form of intelligence into storage data
13:16as a you know hugely they're the only
13:18company doing this it was it was deemed
13:20as being impossible to do and you know I
13:25really think this becomes one of the one
13:27of the waves of future innovation and
13:30storage so let's say that it does become
13:33this foundational thing and that storage
13:34has intelligence you know by and large
13:38how does that build on the other
13:40intelligence in the in the system and
13:42like what what changes I mean do we
13:44start to see you know our ability to do
13:47things change and you know or do we just
13:50get to do what we've always wanted to do
13:52and do it better I think you're gonna
13:56see intelligence at every layer I mean
13:58Peter talks about you know the Internet
14:01of Things and I saw sort of the amount
14:04of data it's gonna be coming in so I
14:06think your networks you're gonna have to
14:07get smarter your storage will get
14:09smarter you know there'll be some
14:11intelligence and the applications as
14:12well but the storage is those for the
14:15last bastion if you will and it's going
14:18to give you a more holistic view than
14:20some of the other ways in but I think
14:22you're gonna have to see the entire
14:23infrastructure get smarter and it's
14:24gonna have to define the metrics by
14:27which it provides better levels of
14:29protection and better levels of
14:30information there will be about how it
14:32touches the data I mean ask this of both
14:36pod I mean it doesn't sound like you've
14:39built a storage company honestly I mean
14:42storage obviously is a part of it but
14:43it's writing on top of words like how do
14:45you will people be building storage
14:48companies you know and I'm doing air
14:50quotes around that word storage now in
14:52the future so it really depends on how
14:56you just find a storage company I think
14:58you know if you define the storage
15:00company more broadly and today people
15:02are going to be creating companies that
15:05not only hold but inform on the data and
15:09protect it then yeah if you broaden the
15:11view of a storage company but we're
15:12nobodies gonna be building a traditional
15:13storage box company anymore George box
15:16companies are going to become very much
15:19a commodity it's going to be an open
15:22source back and it's not going to
15:23provide it's gonna provide a container
15:25much like you can go up any highway and
15:28find out container you can rent for a
15:29hundred bucks a month
15:30but Junkin you don't want but other
15:33companies are going to be buying you
15:34know things are adding value and
15:36continuing duty you care about data you
15:38can look at Peter are you going to be
15:42seeing more storage deals do you think
15:44going forward we always look at store
15:46new storage deal storage is a very very
15:49large market right there's there's all
15:52kinds of different aspects of storage so
15:55what data gravity does is one part of
15:57the storage market there's others backup
15:59and disaster recovery and all kinds of
16:01other pieces and so yes we continue to
16:04look at storage and anything we look at
16:08I continue to ask Paula doubt so that
16:10that part I definitely know right what
16:13do you ask you Paul about these days
16:15well most of the questions T'Pol I have
16:18nothing to do with any other company
16:20it's got to do like how are sales going
16:22how's the engineering going where's the
16:24product come you're late blah blah blah
16:26all that stuff all the typical right oh
16:28they're all the questions that are you
16:30know sort of the practical questions
16:32about running a company well as you go
16:35ahead of time you're gonna see other
16:37companies like if you look at like a
16:38co-host data for doing things at web
16:41scale and removing some of the network
16:42problems if you get to where to go
16:44kinds of storage and big in the torch
16:46you're gonna see guys like that do
16:47really well and you'll see guys like
16:50Mike sand who are going to give you a
16:51software-defined storage for you that
16:53the places were converts work so it's
16:55not going to you know if you're a
16:57primary storage endpoint for small
17:00medium business and you focus with
17:02unstructured data data gravity is going
17:04to be your play but there'll be some
17:06other really high-flying very important
17:08storage innovations are going on right
17:10now and I'll be there freezer Noblet
17:12mmm-hmm well one that you mentioned coho
17:15or also an investor so so you know Paula
17:23from your vantage point and as you are
17:25building out data gravity but as you see
17:27things other things building built
17:29around up around you in the data center
17:32you know and Peter talks a lot about
17:33this too I want you guys both to
17:35describe sort of the data center of the
17:37future as you see it evolving
17:41well I think the problems the data
17:43fanatic future going to be trying to
17:45solve are very different than the data
17:47center of today so I think what you're
17:50going to see is the data center of today
17:52is you know trying to get to be more
17:56bifurcated into a you know sort of a
17:58non-prime private and public cloud
18:01depending on the type of data the value
18:04of the data it's kind of like new um I
18:06used to be when you're doing computers
18:08more you'd want something close stuff
18:10near some stuff what sort of clothes and
18:13stuff stuff could be far and that's how
18:15you're computing memory used to work and
18:16you're gonna see storage do the same
18:17thing but it's going to be more seamless
18:19and the next generation of that is going
18:21to be not based on you know algorithms
18:24that have you know how many times you
18:26know is it Tochter was it hot but it's
18:29going to be done based on the value of
18:30the content if you was reading in when
18:32they last write it interesting positives
18:36you get when you just look at it as a
18:37block level you know Peter talked about
18:39you can't get done with an block you
18:41can't get dumber than tearing based on a
18:42block you really wanted to your based on
18:44the content and the value of the content
18:46and that tearing can include sort of
18:49location etc speed all of that so you're
18:53not religious it sounds like about you
18:55know on-prem versus you know remote or
18:58cloud no I'm not religious at all in
19:01fact I think metro clouds for the small
19:04and medium businesses are going to be
19:06those are tend to be local cloud many
19:09service providers providing on and off
19:11prime services for their customers I
19:13think that's the way most sites will go
19:15or some will be on-premise and will be
19:17in a MetroCard and and some will
19:19probably make it for the public cloud
19:20will really depend on the value and the
19:23nearness of data has to have in the
19:24access rates for the data right you have
19:27one map of it but you can find it right
19:29Peter how does dinner gravity then fit
19:33into your sort of view of this data
19:34center of the future well I think Paul
19:40is view that this idea that storage you
19:45know the tearing of storage is going to
19:47be tiered based on the importance and
19:50value of the information as opposed to
19:52what's been read and
19:53most recently is a really interesting
19:57compelling kind of difference for the
20:00data center of the future whereby let's
20:03say things that are less important to
20:05the organization maybe those things find
20:07their way out in the cloud information
20:09that's really important maybe things
20:11that need to be highly secure find their
20:13way on pram or in a secure data center
20:15so the idea of flipping storage sort of
20:20upside down relative encorage calling a
20:23data information and that information
20:26living in the most appropriate place for
20:30where the user wants a consume it is
20:32very much along the lines of the smart
20:35data center of the future and it
20:37requires innovation like what data
20:40gravity is doing in order to be able to
20:43go and do this so I think it very much
20:45fits into you know this the the notion
20:48of the smart data center and really kind
20:51of having data live where it's most
20:53appropriate to for it to live well Peter
20:57thank you so much and Paula thank you as
21:00well this has been really interesting
21:01and IIIi won't look at my dumb storage
21:05in my laptop quite the same way anymore
21:08all right thank you guys thanks thanks
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