00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6 & Z
00:02podcast today's episode is on the big
00:04picture given internet culture and
00:06history and evolution of why
00:07decentralization matters the
00:09conversation is moderated by Jessica
00:11Verrilli who's a founding partner of
00:13hashtag angels former vice president of
00:15Corp & Strategy at Twitter and is now a
00:18general partner at Google Ventures and
00:19the discussion features Elizabeth Stark
00:22the CEO and co-founder of lightning labs
00:24which is developing an open protocol
00:26layer that leverages the power of
00:29and smart contracts to scale
00:31transactions so they're cheap fast and
00:33available to anyone around the world and
00:34the conversation also features a 6nc
00:37partner Chris Dixon who is now a general
00:39partner on the a6 and C crypto fund
00:41speaking of let me just share the
00:43disclaimer that the content in this
00:45episode is provided for informational
00:47purposes only and does not constitute an
00:50offer or solicitation to purchase any
00:52investment solution or a recommendation
00:54to buy or sell a security nor is it to
00:57be taken as legal business investment or
00:59tax advice and in fact none of the
01:01information in this or other content on
01:03a 6 & C crypto kaam should be relied on
01:06in any manner as advice you can also see
01:08a 6 and C crypto comm / disclosures for
01:11further information ok so now over to
01:13the discussion which was originally
01:14recorded at our inaugural intro to
01:16crypto event co-hosted with hash tag
01:18angels in April 2018 you can also find
01:21other sessions from this event as
01:22podcasts where there's also an episode
01:24on the regulatory landscape in crypto as
01:26well as on our YouTube channel where
01:28there's also an intro to crypto basics
01:30deck available we've heard a ton about
01:33what's going on right now but I would
01:35love to get a little bit more of a
01:37historical perspective on how the
01:41current crypto boom is situated in the
01:44broader context of open source software
01:46and that's something that you've written
01:47about quite a bit Chris and then we'll
01:49talk about the cultural history of the
01:51open Internet as well yes I mean so I
01:54would say you know everyone knows about
01:56open source software I think it's
01:57actually kind of underrated in a way 99%
02:01of the software in the world now is open
02:02source Android phones are basically all
02:04open source all the data center software
02:06you use AWS essentially a reseller of
02:09open source software so it's you know
02:11it's like 99% of the computers in the
02:13approaching 100% when you have IOT in
02:15self-driving cars and I think what's so
02:17remarkable is it all began is this
02:19radical movement it really goes back to
02:21the 80s like Richard Stallman at MIT and
02:24it was this kind of radical kind of like
02:26anti-copyright movement and if you talk
02:29to people from the 90s a lot of people
02:30dismissed it as oh these are these kind
02:32of strange you know people that don't
02:34believe in like paid software and things
02:36you know if you talk if you look go look
02:38at like the Microsoft you know that all
02:40their discussions in the 90s they were
02:43they never Linux never came up right and
02:44so because it was this weird left-wing
02:46thing and I think of the crypto movement
02:48in a lot of ways as as similar to this
02:50it actually sort of started a little bit
02:52when I was a right-wing but a little
02:54kind of libertarian and and you know
02:56sort of this cyber cyberpunk kind of
02:59thing which little ways can talk about
03:00and so I think that and it kind of got
03:02branded that way and a lot of people
03:04still think of it that way but I think
03:07of it in the same way that the
03:08open-source movement kind of morphed
03:09into a tech movement I think that's
03:12what's happening here and it's becoming
03:13much more I mean that that there's still
03:15these political elements and it's very
03:16complicated and nuanced but I see it as
03:19a movement towards a new way to build
03:21digital services that are owned and
03:23operated by communities as opposed to
03:25owned and operated by a private company
03:26and that's a very big general idea and
03:29it's a sort of a big tent that can
03:31include lots of different you know
03:32political orientations and you know
03:35technology orientations and other kinds
03:37of things like that so an Elizabeth
03:39you've written about and talked quite a
03:42bit about the culture of the Internet
03:44can you help us understand how what's
03:47going on right now has a richer richer
03:49deeper history to it yeah thanks for
03:51being here this is great to see
03:53everybody here in the audience and also
03:54great to see like 80 85 percent women
03:57here so awesome uh so with Bitcoin in
04:01the broader cryptocurrency movement a
04:03lot of this resulted again from the 80s
04:05interestingly I actually was recently
04:07looking into this in reading some of the
04:09historical perspective and it's pretty
04:12amazing if you read some of the writings
04:13of people from the late 80s and early
04:1590s they sound so applicable today you
04:18would not have guessed that they were
04:19written back in the day so there was
04:21this movement called the cyberpunk
04:22movement and the goal of the movement
04:24was to use the power of cryptography
04:27known as crypto that's what it used to
04:28be called we're actually fighting a
04:30battle on our team because we still
04:31think crypto means cryptography in the
04:33technical world but it is in other
04:35meetings and the perspective was that
04:38the power of this new type of technology
04:40in cryptography could enable people have
04:43it could be empowering and it enabled
04:45individual freedom so there was this
04:48movement for this freedom oriented
04:51cyberpunk culture but then there was
04:53actually this counter movement which was
04:55the US government so in the 90s the US
04:57government actually banned the exporting
04:59of strong cryptography has anybody here
05:02does anybody remember like having to
05:03download Netscape and selecting whether
05:05you were in the US or not in the US does
05:07anybody am i right and that was because
05:09you actually could not export this
05:12cryptography under US law so if you're
05:14outside of the US you could not have
05:16stronger cryptography so you couldn't
05:17have better privacy and better
05:19technology so the cypher punk movement
05:21was really fighting against this
05:24ultimately luckily they prevailed and
05:26they won and Bitcoin and cryptocurrency
05:29more broadly really evolved out of that
05:31perspective so along comes the year 2008
05:35a major event in the history of the
05:37global financial world occurred what was
05:39it the coin white paper right there was
05:43also some other thing that happened that
05:44year and this pseudonymous
05:47individual group or group of individuals
05:48named Satoshi Nakamoto releases paper to
05:51the world to basically no fanfare nobody
05:54cared Satoshi sent this paper to a
05:57mailing list and the response was nobody
06:00really noticed a few days later somebody
06:02responded actually saying that one of
06:03the biggest issues could be scalability
06:05which is what my startup is working on
06:06so but to me is really fascinating and
06:09interesting how Satoshi and those that
06:12were involved early on were influenced
06:13and they were they really came out of
06:15the cyberpunk movement and if I had to
06:16bet I think those folks were on these
06:19mailing lists early back in the day and
06:21they were working with that community as
06:22well it's amazing how things have
06:24changed first nobody cares and then
06:26everyone cares and maybe nobody will
06:27care again and so on and so forth and
06:31Chris can you elaborate a little bit on
06:33what historically has the open source
06:35software movement historically has had
06:37this massive following and a distributed
06:40groups of people all over the world
06:41and collaborating to build software
06:44together but if you look at our current
06:46internet landscape like how has that
06:49group can you just talk us through the
06:50transition of that group and what sort
06:53of been missing and how crypto put some
06:54of those pieces together in a different
06:56way now using the sort of the the
06:58current internet incumbents kind of the
07:01landscape where we've landed in terms of
07:02concentration of power yeah yeah I mean
07:05I think the sort of irony right with it
07:07so so the internet is is you know the
07:10original internet is designed with and
07:13governed by these decentralized
07:14protocols like TCP IP and HTTP NH and
07:17and these have become you know massive
07:19right I mean there's a there's tens of
07:21billions of IP connected devices and
07:23open source as I mentioned before is
07:25massive yet we live in a time where I
07:27think we have probably the greatest
07:29concentration of power in on the
07:32internet that I mean you know or in the
07:34technology world since probably
07:35Microsoft at its peak in the 90s and
07:38that's Google Apple Facebook Amazon
07:40companies like that and we see the
07:42issues you know you see in the press
07:43right you see these issues around you
07:45know how controls how these algorithms
07:47controlled who decides you know the sort
07:51of D platforming D monetization you hear
07:53these kinds of debates like who you know
07:55what what's the process by which we
07:57govern these networks I think people are
07:58starting to realize these networks you
08:00know are very important right I mean
08:02they affect elections they affect you
08:04know people's businesses I mean the
08:05media talk to people in media business
08:07and how it's affected them and I think
08:09we kind of you know we kind of kind of
08:13stumbled into this situation without
08:15realizing it maybe as a you know as a
08:17community and as a world or whatever
08:18where where we these these very
08:21important networks are governed in these
08:22kind of opaque ways that we don't fully
08:24understand and so it's weird because on
08:28the one hand that yes open source so is
08:29so dominant and these open protocols are
08:32so dominant yet these large companies
08:34have managed to kind of take you know
08:36could kind of subordinate those open
08:38technologies and so I to me a lot of the
08:41crypto movement is a reaction to that
08:43and it's a you know it's interesting
08:44that a lot of it is coming for example
08:46out of places like Europe and Asia and
08:47actually it's not really centered in
08:48Silicon Valley and I think that's partly
08:50why is it's kind of a counter movement
08:51to to what's happened well and the early
08:55creators of the internet and there were
08:56a lot of utopians folks that are looking
08:59at this as a utopia back in the day
09:00envisioned that the internet would be
09:01this democratizing force I you know was
09:04and one of them but I think what we've
09:06seen is this evolution of centralization
09:09that is meant that there are a whole lot
09:11of gains that are concentrated in a very
09:12few number of people so you know the
09:15cryptocurrency movement really is a
09:16reaction in many ways to that part of
09:18why I got so interested in it was I saw
09:20the power of open decentralized
09:22protocols I didn't want all the power to
09:23be in the hands of a very small few and
09:26I really do see this as a new
09:27opportunity this is in a way a means to
09:31make up for the centralization that
09:32occurred say in the last decade or two
09:33and we can kind of flip the switch and
09:35go the other way around and that's part
09:36of what gets me so excited about this
09:37and this is one of those conversation
09:40part of what is fascinated me about
09:41crypto is there are so because it is
09:44such a mosaic of a space there's so many
09:47different narratives that coexist in
09:49crypto for which there is a community
09:51and there is truth depending upon what
09:53you're interested in and so there's a
09:54narrative around crypto that's very
09:56money centric that's very get-rich-quick
09:58and you may have seen that in press
10:01coverage of people who are now crypto
10:03sentai millionaires and people on the
10:04cover of Forbes and whatnot and there's
10:06truth to that narrative but that that
10:10conversation to me is appealing to some
10:13and maybe obnoxious to others and then
10:15there's a narrative around a political
10:18ideology part libertarian part anarchist
10:21and depending upon your views that might
10:23be inviting or it might be sort of
10:25something that doesn't appeal to you but
10:27then there's also a narrative in crypto
10:29and this is one I feel like you both
10:30have been incredible educators to me
10:33around technology distributed software
10:38global groups of technically minded
10:40people collaborate and in some fashion
10:42and maybe trying to build a more
10:44equitable distribution of power and what
10:47is it in our industry and I spent you
10:50know nine almost nine years at Twitter
10:52and I led many of our acquisitions
10:54around the world and saw how much of our
10:57industry is actually dictated by access
10:59and a small number relatively small
11:01number of people that hold influence and
11:03and part of what's exciting to me about
11:05crypto is those very ideas are being
11:09debated and innovated and folks are
11:13trying to change I think in some ways
11:15and build things that feel like they're
11:19more accessible to people all over the
11:21world and you don't need to be on just
11:23Sand Hill Road to fundraise or you don't
11:24need to be in Silicon Valley to Nestle
11:26build a company and Chris on that you've
11:29mentioned before that part of the
11:32promise of crypto is it sort of this
11:34open the principles open-source software
11:36but with a business model can you talk a
11:38little bit about app tokens and sort of
11:40how that stitches together yeah I mean
11:42so you alluded to the you know this was
11:44the ICO craze and there's a lot of
11:46negative elements around this and you
11:48know some of the press narrative is true
11:49that there's sort of this get-rich-quick
11:50aspect on the flip side you know if you
11:53look at how you know like Wikipedia
11:56every year has to put these banner ads
11:58up that sort of asked for money right
11:59like so it's there you know it's this
12:01amazing wonderful resource right I mean
12:03it's it's a you know anyone in the four
12:05billion people now have smartphones that
12:07can instantly get all this information
12:08and the fact that they have to put a
12:10banner ads is just you know it's it's
12:12kind of depressing I think and then you
12:14know or you look at there was a famous
12:16bug in SSL called the heartbleed which
12:18is you know SSL are the main encryption
12:20protocol and it was you know it turned
12:21out at that bug happened that there was
12:23a half a developer working on that
12:24project or something it was like it was
12:26it was woefully underfunded right so so
12:28the flipside of the dark side of all the
12:30kind of get rich stuff around crypto is
12:32that this is also now finally we have a
12:33financing model for these open networks
12:35and and I think that's that's a very
12:38positive thing right and if and and and
12:40open networks can now enjoy the same
12:42kind of economic flywheel that
12:44for-profit companies have you know if
12:45you look at the companies like Twitter
12:47and Facebook they're one of the reasons
12:48they can get so large is they get this
12:50feedback loop where they get bigger they
12:52raise money they generate revenue they
12:53feed it back into R&D and you know they
12:55have these giant R&D budgets and and so
12:57now I what what's so exciting to me is
13:01now has a similar potentially a similar
13:04economic flywheel and can kind of
13:05compete on a level playing field so
13:07recently I was quoted as saying we're
13:09back in a Bitcoin blockchain world
13:11because so back when I was fundraising
13:13for my company lightning labs nobody
13:15cared about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency
13:16people would laugh us away they wouldn't
13:19take meetings with us and things have
13:20changed dramatically in the last really
13:23and that is the nature of this type of
13:24thing right so one of the key components
13:28you know a lot of folks want to say Oh
13:30block chains only but actually when you
13:31have the incentive mechanism that is
13:33tied to this base layer currency or
13:36token if you will that actually
13:37maintains the decentralization of the
13:39network this part is key and I think
13:41people are finally coming to realize why
13:43this is so significant but from my
13:45standpoint part of what we got what got
13:47me interested in this whole world in the
13:48first place not only the
13:49decentralization aspect but turns out
13:52the early creators of the internet
13:54envision or the web especially that
13:56there would be a way to pay online so if
13:57you wanted to give like 50 cents to a
13:59musician whose song you listened to if
14:02you want to pay somebody that wrote an
14:03article it could be built in at the
14:05browser level we actually didn't have
14:07the technologies to make this possible
14:09and the financial industry didn't build
14:10and they didn't innovate you know why do
14:12I send a venmo payment to my friend and
14:14it takes three days for it to get to
14:15their bank account right that's super
14:16inefficient we can do all sorts of other
14:18things on the Internet but it turns out
14:19it takes us three days to send money in
14:20this country other countries I will say
14:22do have a little bit of a more efficient
14:24system so one thing that I'm really
14:27excited about with the technology we're
14:29building with lightning is the ability
14:30to have this native transaction layer of
14:33the internet a way to send and receive
14:35money you know have a new model for the
14:39internet where it doesn't necessarily
14:40have to be dependent upon advertising
14:42where artists and creators can be paid
14:44by the end users and also a means for
14:47developers to build on top of this there
14:49was no way to build value directly into
14:51the internet back then and now we
14:53finally have the possibility to do it
14:55and we are though in the early days
14:57again in the last year you know if you
14:59told me that you know my lift driver on
15:01the way over we were having this fun
15:02conversation about Bitcoin if you had
15:04told me that even a year ago I wouldn't
15:05believe that but it's gone mainstream
15:08and yet we're still in the early days
15:10and there's still so much potential to
15:12build us out and for anybody that thinks
15:13oh I'm too late you're not too late
15:15we're really just still at the beginning
15:17and when she went breaking down I mean I
15:20think one of the most profound things
15:21about this broader movement is the
15:22notion of an incentive structure that
15:25aligns the people that are doing the
15:28early work of a platform and
15:30traditionally we've seen this in terms
15:31of developer ecosystems that are created
15:33alongside centralized companies but in
15:36incentive structure where the developer
15:39community and also the early adopters
15:40can benefit as owners of a broader
15:43network can you break down just a little
15:44bit about how that works and what the
15:45promise of that is so I'm actually an IC
15:48o skeptic I tweet a lot about my
15:50skepticism of a lot of what's out there
15:51I see actually some different incentives
15:54so the community so I'm very involved in
15:56the developer communities and people are
15:58actually very motivated by both ideology
16:01but also social change which I really
16:03think is amazing and a lot of the
16:05open-source communities in the past we'd
16:07seen that people were not contributing
16:09for money they were contributing because
16:10they loved what they were doing now of
16:12course that excludes people that
16:14couldn't afford to contribute otherwise
16:15so I think there's a happy medium that
16:17needs to be struck but there's there's a
16:19world in which okay you know there have
16:21been I SEOs we're on day one the folks
16:24involved made say tens of millions or
16:26more of dollars and they hadn't even
16:28shipped a product so I would argue we're
16:30way too far on the scale on the other
16:32direction of things um personally so in
16:36my experience a lot of the technical
16:38community that I work with they want to
16:40work on something they really believe in
16:41in a project that they're passionate
16:42about so for my startup we've raised a
16:45normal seed round and in terms of
16:47recruiting we found that if you get
16:49people you give them ownership in our
16:51company you know we give people equity
16:52which is like so old-school of us you
16:55know that can really get them involved
16:57and motivate them and one thing that I
16:58will say I absolutely love about being
17:00in this world is people really are so
17:03passionate this is not just something
17:05that you know they do once in a while
17:06it's it's something they really believe
17:08in and that's what kind of gets me up
17:10and going in the morning and gets me
17:13you mentioned the passion people hold
17:15for this space I am in my last chapter
17:19Twitter where I was leading acquisitions
17:21I would spend all my time with
17:22entrepreneurs and I would try to figure
17:24out where is the world going where are
17:27the like most independent brilliant
17:28technical minds working and meet those
17:31people try to figure out what they're
17:32building and I would I would just try to
17:33learn and understand crypto is
17:36fascinating to me personally by how
17:38passionate these communities are as you
17:40mentioned and I've wondered openly is
17:43there something I think Preeti maybe
17:45used the phrase earlier referring this
17:47as a movement is there something bigger
17:49going on around the globe
17:50that if anything living in San Francisco
17:52where maybe underexposed to where people
17:55almost feel a sense of identity with
17:57this space and are we gonna in five or
17:59ten years have a bunch of folks coming
18:02of age where they conceptualize if their
18:04identity and a slightly different more
18:06the more global man or does that
18:08resonate in terms of the communities you
18:09are both a part of and no yeah no I
18:14think I think for sure I mean in by the
18:16way it's their pros and cons to this so
18:18you have these sort of tribal wars that
18:19go on in in the crypto world drama yeah
18:23there's a lot of drama a lot tribal
18:24that's sort of the negative side I think
18:25the positive side is people are very
18:26passionate if you just go to like the
18:28subreddits or the telegrams or whatever
18:30each of these projects you know this is
18:32much more than than just sort of a your
18:35regular kind of level of passion for
18:36these things and and a lot of these
18:39different like crypto currencies embody
18:41different kind of ideologies and and so
18:44there's there's many more things kind of
18:46uniting them and it's also you know I
18:47think if it kind of as uniting some of
18:49the great powerful things about the
18:50internet which is the ability to create
18:52kind of these communities sort of
18:54affinity groups you know using kind of
18:56social networking and things but also
18:58open knowledge sharing sort of the open
19:00source side and so you're sort of
19:01uniting those two very powerful kind of
19:04streams of you know of sort of momentum
19:07of the internet and and together and
19:09then you're adding on to the display
19:10with all these other kinds of
19:11interesting technology and money and
19:13everything else and so it definitely is
19:16a very powerful mixture and hopefully
19:18that'll go in the right direction and
19:21then interestingly in terms of the
19:23community a lot of it reminds me of back
19:26in the 90s when I was first getting on
19:28so we have this Lac community for
19:29lightning we have 2,000 developers and
19:31testers on there and I don't know where
19:33you know the folks are you know they
19:35have pseudonyms right and they for
19:38example we have one member of our slack
19:40her name is Molly and she tests the
19:43lightning software every day and she
19:45this she just loves it like this is her
19:46passion and she's like we know that like
19:48if something goes wrong like Molly's
19:49gonna catch it right and we have I don't
19:53know where people are located you know
19:54they have these pseudonyms and they're
19:55all just United around this belief in
19:58this passion for the technology and I
20:00think it's really cool like we don't
20:01care where you went to school where
20:03you're from how old you are
20:04there is a fourteen-year-old in the
20:07Bitcoin world his name is Salim Rashid
20:09he's found multiple vulnerabilities in
20:11various hardware wallets as well and
20:12he's like I'm just 14 you know so it
20:15just doesn't matter and then even as a
20:16company you know we care much more about
20:19what you're capable of doing and being a
20:21fast learner you know we have folks that
20:22dropped out of college we have folks
20:24that have degrees and yes but for
20:27example to apply for an internship for
20:28us we say okay contribute to the
20:30open-source code we don't necessarily
20:32care about your background we just want
20:33to see what you can do and how you can
20:35contribute and that's actually been an
20:36awesome way to get some really talented
20:38people that we wouldn't have found
20:39otherwise mm-hmm and you you seen Chris
20:42on the investment side the teams that
20:43traditionally venture folks pattern
20:45match quite a bit or there's a certain
20:47lore about that and are you seeing the
20:50teams that you're backing and that are
20:52working in this space do they fit the
20:54old patterns or to what extent are the
20:56teams and companies you're investing in
20:58feel like they're cut from a slightly
20:59different mold in this space yeah so my
21:01feeling is it's kind of come in
21:02different waves so in sort of 2012 to 14
21:06there were kind of the more
21:07ideologically driven founders you know
21:10kind of the cypherpunks etc and then
21:12kind of with the rise of aetherium and
21:14this sort of idea that you could have
21:15these other kinds of protocols the the
21:17types of entre became they're very
21:18technical but kind of interests in
21:19distributed systems and protocol design
21:22I think there's now a new wave starting
21:24I'm starting to see which is kind of
21:26I've been working at Google or Facebook
21:28or some company like this you know I
21:30moved out to the valley to like do
21:32something cool and new I'm working at
21:34you know X large company and I'm doing
21:36you know I'm employee 8002 working on ad
21:39targeting or whatever and like I just
21:41not this is not you know what what I
21:42signed up for this is not like the kind
21:44of the Wild West the Pioneer you know
21:46the frontier kind of thing and I and I
21:48you know I've been hacking on whatever
21:50picked your project on the weekend and
21:51and this is this feels new and fresh and
21:54fun and so I get that a lot now lately
21:56and I think it's the beginning I think I
21:59hope of a giant wave of talent entering
22:01the space you know you never know until
22:03you see it but I get that sense so and
22:06are you and to some extent these crowd
22:09the ability to crowdfund or do an Icee
22:11oh he's a different model than
22:13traditional venture funding and you
22:14chose to raise equity and I'd be curious
22:18to what extent to what extent do you
22:23feel like firms will adapt and we
22:26publicly know that some firms are
22:27participating in I cos it's that sort of
22:29to be feared or embraced and could you
22:31imagine in the future potentially
22:32launching a token and doing a crowd sale
22:35there is it's just too early to know how
22:36that will all I'll play out well I've
22:40said publicly there's never going to be
22:41a lightning ico it doesn't make sense
22:43for our technology and in fact we one of
22:46our former interns wants to release a
22:48post about how all the I SEOs that are
22:50coming out you can just build with
22:50lightning instead now we knows we may go
22:54public on a blockchain I there's a new
22:56wave of what our people are calling
22:58securitized tokens or security assets on
23:01blockchain and there are some really
23:03interesting legal discussions and happy
23:05to chat after heard of folks are
23:06interested in that but no we we're not
23:09planning on doing a token because our
23:10technology doesn't need it we are more
23:12of the cyberpunk variety but we also are
23:14big into designing and protocols and
23:16distributed systems and from from my
23:19standpoint as a founder we chose to
23:21actually we did a normal sea drone which
23:23was like contrarian in this world and we
23:26got angel investors in sea funds and the
23:30experience has actually been amazing all
23:31of our investors have been super
23:32supportive back you know back when there
23:34was Bitcoin winter and the price was
23:36like $200 things were very different
23:38than now but I can see that not everyone
23:41has access to those types of connections
23:44or investors and there are we do need
23:47new models to fund projects but they
23:50shouldn't be models where founders are
23:51able to cash out or they raise way too
23:53much money and in fact there can be
23:55perverse incentives because now there's
23:57so much money and they're not actually
23:58able to ship a product one thing that
24:00we've recently announced our fundraise
24:02when we release the beta of lightning
24:03for the main Bitcoin network the first
24:05implementation to be used with real
24:08Bitcoin in beta and people tweeted like
24:11wow a blockchain company raised a normal
24:13amount of money and shipped a product so
24:14I was like what isn't that what startups
24:15are supposed to do yes yes so now we're
24:19being the anti startup so yeah I'm a big
24:22fan of crowdfunding in general I think
24:23but I think I think it's it's it's a
24:25very powerful thing but has to be done
24:26right so for example like if you look at
24:27Kickstarter I think it crowdfunding
24:30works fantastically well in certain cat
24:32so for example independent video games
24:33and books are great categories where a
24:35lot of the contributors are avid fans
24:38who know the author take books as an
24:40example like it just makes so much sense
24:41to me that the fans of an author would
24:43fund that author and not have to go to a
24:45VCE or not OBC and we don't fund the
24:48books usually but a VC type person like
24:50that but like you know publisher a
24:52publisher is kind of like a VC right
24:53like you have to go to some intermediary
24:54who decides so I love the idea of the
24:58fan you know I think I think it the you
25:00know a restaurant instead of going to a
25:02bank and having some impersonal process
25:03should be funded by the you know the
25:05people who live in the neighborhood like
25:06I I think crowdfunding now we can go it
25:08can go wrong for sure and some a lot of
25:10the I SEOs have been like that you know
25:12where or even in in traditional
25:13crowdfunding where you know people order
25:15an electronics product that doesn't ever
25:16get delivered right so we need to figure
25:18that out as a community like what you
25:20know how do you harness that force in a
25:22positive way but but I think the idea
25:24that you have these sort of gatekeepers
25:25that decide on what gets funded III
25:27would love to see it every place with a
25:28with a different model and I think
25:30crowdfunding is is very promising mm-hmm
25:32and we've talked a little bit about the
25:36duality of some of these narratives I
25:38mean crowdfunding is one where there's
25:39different perspectives and it's all
25:40quite nuanced are there other media
25:43narratives around this space that you
25:45think really represent what's going on
25:48or are there narratives that you feel
25:50like are sort of missing the point or
25:52any myths that you think it's worth
25:55debunking I see a lot of narratives
25:57this why so great to be here today so
26:00for example in January the New York
26:02Times published a piece about
26:04cryptocurrency and how all the men were
26:06getting rich on cryptocurrency and it's
26:09a boys club right I had spent nearly an
26:11hour on the phone with that journalist
26:12and she didn't include anything I said
26:15in the article in order to mention me as
26:17and I actually went on Twitter of course
26:19you know as we like to do on Krypton
26:20Twitter and I was like oh I spent 45
26:23minutes on the phone with you and you
26:25didn't even include me and now you've
26:26written that it's all boys so actually
26:29that narrative to me is very tired there
26:31are a lot of really amazing women in the
26:33cryptocurrency world and there are just
26:34a lot of really amazing women in the
26:36space there was a glamor article and I
26:38never actually thought I'd see the day
26:39that I was in Glamour magazine that came
26:41out yesterday that profiled nine women I
26:44was one of them in this
26:45face and to me talking about the work
26:47that women are doing is what is needed
26:49not like what is it like to be you know
26:51a female in blah no I just want to talk
26:54about what I'm building so that was
26:56and then I think the media likes to
26:58focus on the prices you know it's like
27:01oh like Bitcoin is that is the catchy
27:05thing but the narrative is so much
27:08broader and the potential is so much
27:10butter I think it's easy to get caught
27:12into this whole price narrative but to
27:14me like from my team we we say like
27:17really saying ignore the noise like we
27:18just kind of try to not you know look at
27:21the and the price prices will
27:24go up they'll go down but the long-term
27:26potential of this technology is real
27:27it's here and so it would be great if
27:30people could really talk about the
27:31broader vision and less about just
27:33prices and get-rich-quick schemes but
27:35hard to sell the media on that yeah I
27:38think we have a lot of work to do as a
27:39community to kind of get the proper
27:42narrative out there and there is a lot
27:43of let's focus I mean you just naturally
27:45focus on kind of the you know some of
27:47the negative things and the prices and
27:49and look the tech the tech stuff is it's
27:51a it's complicated and you know it's a
27:55lot of it hasn't been realized yet so
27:57you need talk to reporters and you like
27:58look this is what this could do and it
28:00hasn't happened yet and so you know I
28:02I'm very focused on doing what I can to
28:04help see those those things happen and
28:07like what Elizabeth's is doing is
28:08fantastic and like if you know if you
28:10get out there and we started getting
28:11lots of people using lightning that will
28:14help us change and that'll be a great
28:15case study to change the narrative so I
28:18think that's to me that we're in this
28:20kind of weird kind of early phase where
28:22we don't have enough things to point to
28:23to kind of say hey they'll look at this
28:25other thing it's not just about money
28:26there were some great articles from the
28:28mid 90s where people wrote like the
28:30Internet will never be a thing right and
28:32like some interesting quotes around so
28:35the Internet's impact on the economy
28:37will be less than that of the fax
28:38machine and I think we're seeing some of
28:41that now as well where you know you're
28:43always going to have doubters but
28:45there's so much potential and yet we
28:48just need time to really build it out
28:49and and I would also remind folks in
28:52terms of narrative I have learned so
28:54much listening to both podcasts and
28:56writing that Chris has done and
28:58of the work that Elizabeth has done in
29:00interview she's given to and so there's
29:02a ton of more rich stuff to dig in from
29:04both of them as well as all of our other
29:05speakers and maybe we'll wrap up on one
29:08or two points and give you all a chance
29:10to ask questions and you we started on a
29:13historical perspective of a deeper
29:16history that's led up to where we are
29:17now and can you help us understand where
29:20we are now relative to perhaps what's to
29:22come is it still really early days are
29:25we in the infrastructure cycle is it
29:27overhyped how how should we think about
29:29where we are now relative to kind of the
29:32potential of this space so I think we're
29:34in the mid 90s when it comes to say
29:37Internet time right so 1995 was a year
29:39that Netscape IPO and the year that was
29:41seen as a the web going mainstream
29:44so you know there were people using it
29:46but it wasn't like everyone in the world
29:48was on the web yet but there but it was
29:51still you know you look at the
29:52historical arc in the context there was
29:54still so much left to come I think a lot
29:57of people actually wanted us to be more
29:59in the I don't know the 2010 realm and
30:02we're just not there yet and building
30:04this stuff takes time right I mean so in
30:07terms of the tech we build with
30:08lightning it people are like how why
30:10isn't ready yet for a while and it was
30:11like well one there aren't that many
30:13developers in the world that can build
30:14this and there's actually a big passion
30:16of mine is now developer education and
30:18getting more people involved in educated
30:20but then also building protocols and
30:22this core infrastructure old technology
30:24takes time so I am seeing more interest
30:28in building out the infrastructure but
30:30we can't put the cart before the horse I
30:31think a lot of people wanted to build
30:32certain apps that just where the
30:35infrastructure wasn't ready yet for them
30:37to exist so now we're seeing people
30:38finally realize that and hopefully
30:39invest in building the infrastructure to
30:41make all of these use cases possible in
30:43the future but like I said it's still so
30:46early that you know you're it's
30:47definitely not too late to get involved
30:49you will still be on the early side of
30:51all of this I totally agree I think it's
30:53very early I think people now they think
30:56they think that a lot of people kind of
30:57remember there's revisionist history
30:59that the web kind of came out fully you
31:00know you had YouTube and brought it was
31:02not at all like that if people that are
31:04old enough to remember that the it was
31:05like this incredibly slow loading thing
31:07and it was like it's actually funny to
31:09go watch movie from the 90s because no
31:11one uses the Internet
31:12no one had phone nothing and when they
31:13do it's like I'm gonna go on the
31:14internet and it's like this event and
31:16you have these noises come out of the
31:17computer and then they go and they check
31:19their email and then the thievery but
31:20it's like it was it was like it's kind
31:22of like the way this world is today
31:23right i mean it's it's like there's a
31:24lot of work to do and yeah there's a few
31:3190s movies about like the net and
31:32packers and things but for the most part
31:34it's this like thing that doesn't you
31:35know it barely registers right i think
31:38that scape at their peak was like 50
31:39million users or something it wasn't I
31:41mean the numbers were like Kryptos
31:42probably above that right now I don't
31:43know I mean we scale now so different
31:45people expect if you don't have four
31:46billion smartphones you're like nothing
31:48or something right but so I think it's
31:50super or at least I've you know people
31:51here thinking about getting into it I
31:52think it's super early and there's tons
31:55of opportunity and it's you know
31:57obviously if I think it's gonna be
31:58fantastically I think it's gonna be an
32:00awesome you know kind of space and in
32:03terms of getting involved so if folks
32:05are encoders and aren't technical there
32:07are actually so many ways to get
32:08involved so for example in our community
32:10there are people that help but testing
32:12they help with UI UX feedback and they
32:15help with documentation there's just so
32:17many different ways for people to
32:18contribute helping educate others even
32:22just educating yourself so one really
32:24cool thing is in terms of getting
32:26involved in this world there's nobody
32:28that has ten years of quote unquote
32:30blockchain experience because block
32:32chains have not actually been around for
32:33ten years I mean the white paper exactly
32:37except for Satoshi Satoshi white paper
32:39came out on Halloween in 2008 so we're
32:42getting there we're very close but the
32:43point is it's actually the barrier to
32:46entry that you know in certain other
32:47fields where you might have to have like
32:48a decade or more of experience we don't
32:51have here so that's part of why I think
32:52there is this really massive opportunity
32:55with that we will open it up if folks
32:58want to ask a couple questions before we
33:00wrap them hi I'm Lauren thank you guys
33:02so much for being here and for hosting
33:03this event you guys talked a lot about
33:06how are the history of cypherpunks and
33:10how there's been a lot of centralization
33:13like Facebook Apple Netflix Google is
33:15this kind of reaction against all of
33:16that how do you reconcile that with kind
33:19of what I view is like there are a few
33:22companies in the space that seem very
33:23powerful and centralized where everyone
33:25does their transactions through
33:26like coinbase which is a great product
33:29we share a lot of people here use it so
33:30how do you see the space going forward
33:33do you think it'll continue to
33:34centralize or will there be more
33:36competition that's a good question you
33:38know it is a risk that you know that all
33:41of the sort of utopian stuff we're
33:42talking about ends up you know ending up
33:44we end up 15 years from now with the
33:46same kind of outcome you know this
33:49particular case economy so I'm involved
33:50with Quimby I'm I'm on the board of
33:51claim base the the yeah I will say I
33:53mean I think they're they're phenomenal
33:54company did incredibly well but they are
33:56relatively I mean there's a lot of
33:57exchanges there's a lot of you know
34:00things that happen off exchanges so it's
34:02still you know I mean they're great
34:03company and they're doing super well but
34:04it's still it's a very you know broad
34:06space and I would say I would argue
34:09pretty pretty fragmented today but it's
34:13a good point I mean I think one thing
34:14there's a lot of discussion in this
34:15community around like things like
34:16governance to talk about which is the
34:18idea essentially let's make sure we get
34:19them up these models right so we don't
34:21end up in the same place 15 years from
34:23now and then instead of you know Mark
34:25Zuckerberg it's whatever Vitalik in
34:26front of Congress or some person so she
34:28or I don't know a great awesome question
34:32so this is something that I certainly
34:33struggle with as well and I think a lot
34:35of it actually comes down to some of the
34:37issues around usability so in the world
34:40of cryptocurrency there's a new paradigm
34:42where your private keys represent money
34:45and as a result if somebody were to
34:47compromise those keys well your money's
34:49gone and the base layer of these
34:51protocols are irreversible such that if
34:54you're money stolen you can't just call
34:55a bank and say okay please give me back
34:57my money right and that's part of what
34:59makes them so interesting and cool but
35:00there are certainly risks around that as
35:02well when it comes to the broader
35:04security infrastructure for example I've
35:06had a variety of friends whose phone
35:08numbers have been ported because it
35:09turns out the phone cell phone system
35:12and the carriers don't have good
35:13security in place and then people try to
35:16get access to their email what not by
35:17the way anybody involved in this
35:18community please call your phone
35:20provider and put a password on your
35:22account so I think a lot of that is
35:25going to come down to usability there's
35:26this kind of divide between usability
35:30and security and if you want to make say
35:32your key secure and hold currency in a
35:34decentralized way it turns out that can
35:36actually be more difficult than having
35:38coin based or it so to
35:39the answer in this lies in developing
35:42better ways for things like key
35:43management but then also just generally
35:45better user experience and better
35:47usability for those that want to have a
35:49more decentralized model and we're
35:51working on it a lot of us are thinking
35:53about it as Chris mentioned getting the
35:55folks that say maybe we're doing you
35:57exit you know Apple Google Facebook and
35:59coming into this world that can really
36:00think through these problems and develop
36:02compelling user experiences I think is
36:04going to be a big part of it
36:05hi there my name is Sierra Peterson and
36:07I am interested in your thoughts on
36:09kryptos application to real assets
36:11obviously andreessen horowitz made a
36:13recent investment in harbor but even
36:16harbor is looking to partner with broker
36:18dealers and other service providers and
36:20so what do you see as the evolution of
36:23this services there for real assets um
36:28so no I think I think the idea so that
36:31some people call this traditional asset
36:33tokenization or something so taking like
36:34real estate assets or something and I
36:36think it's a really interesting area
36:37it's it's sort of different than a lot
36:39of the other stuff and it's a little
36:40more kind of you know real world meets
36:41crypto world or something than some of
36:43the other stuff but but you know to me
36:45the benefits like you know to have you
36:48know a lot of the benefits of an open
36:50network you would be realized this way
36:51so you could have like so harbor has
36:54this idea of our tokens they're kind of
36:55tokens a consider that it can only be
36:57traded under the right you they update
36:59if to check the regulatory status of the
37:01counterparty and things like this but
37:03you could imagine getting many of the
37:05benefits of an open network where you
37:07have sort of a competition among
37:08exchanges and data providers and you
37:11have sort of global liquidity and and I
37:13think that could be you know I think you
37:14could have a democratizing effect on
37:16kind of the ability to raise money and
37:18the ability for people to invest in
37:19things and so I you know I generally I
37:21think it's I think it's exciting and
37:23there's I think you see a lot more
37:25people working on that problem yeah I
37:28think it's a really interesting space as
37:29well it's a hybrid model right because
37:31you do have to trust for example let's
37:33say I want to invest a thousand dollars
37:34in real estate will I need to trust that
37:35actually I'm investing in the real
37:37estate and it's not like some scammer
37:38coming along and pretending that I am so
37:40it does have a different trust model
37:42than Bitcoin but what these technologies
37:45can do is enable for example if you want
37:47to invest $1,000 in real estate now you
37:49just can't really do that so I think
37:51there's really interesting potential to
37:53the ability for people to invest in
37:55these assets or previously would only be
37:57available to you know people that are
37:59very rich or accredited investors and
38:01we're we're seeing both traditional
38:03assets being tokenized and then the idea
38:06of securities tokens like why not put
38:08equity on a blockchain right so I think
38:10that's going to be a big trend moving
38:12forward in the next few years with all
38:13the talk about the centralization and
38:16how the focus of crypto is towards that
38:18the two big currencies you have on the
38:20market right now are ruled by benevolent
38:22dictators Satoshi owns a major chunk of
38:25the Bitcoin equity so does the talocan
38:28the etherion side and you see that if
38:31that doesn't happen then malicious
38:34groups end up taking over a chunk of the
38:36original issues and then Charlie's price
38:39manipulation is the recent scandal that
38:41broke out with the Haven currency so
38:45what do you see is you know a progress
38:48towards currencies or even technology
38:50that actually is decentralized without
38:52the need for someone to hold the bigger
38:54chunk and kind of punish the bad actors
38:56until the the the currency requires
38:59skill so there's a little bit more
39:01nuance there um i Bitcoin is not ruled
39:03by a benevolent dictator so Satoshi the
39:05creator of Bitcoin actually left the
39:07community in very early 2011 and has not
39:10been seen since one thing that I think
39:11is really fascinating is that there is
39:13no leader and the etherion community
39:15does have a bit of a different structure
39:16with more known leadership but I think
39:20in a lot of ways this is all new I mean
39:23one of the things that I love about what
39:25I'm doing in our team is like we're
39:26doing things that nobody's ever done
39:27before like there was there was a
39:29software we were working on and we
39:31didn't know how long it would take and
39:32then it turned out of course I took
39:33longer than we thought it wouldn't we
39:34were like wait nobody's ever built this
39:36so we just didn't know like how long it
39:38would take so we're really seeing these
39:40like issues of first impression as
39:43mentioned there are different models for
39:45communities and I think it'll it'll be
39:47interesting I mean Satoshi didn't want
39:49to be a benevolent dictator I think
39:50Satoshi didn't want to be in a spotlight
39:52there are some people believe Satoshi
39:55owns certain coins I mean nobody knows
39:57it's really one of the modern mysteries
39:59like we don't know who Satoshi is I'm
40:00perfectly happy for that to stay that
40:02way unless Satoshi ever wants us to know
40:03who he she or they is there are
40:07but if anything of course they're gonna
40:09be potential attack vectors I think one
40:11of the most fascinating things about
40:12being in this world is we haven't seen
40:14the types of major attacks that we could
40:17have seen on the base protocols
40:18nation-state actors could come in they
40:20could try to attack the network they
40:22could try to buy up hashbrown a variety
40:24of networks they could try to manipulate
40:26markets and I'm sure there's certainly
40:28some market manipulation going on now
40:30but to me one thing that I think is so
40:32fascinating is the incentive structure
40:34is built such that there are so many
40:36people that are incentivized do not have
40:38the network the network be attacked that
40:40we have not seen that happen as of yet
40:42and I believe as these communities and
40:44these currencies grow we'll see even
40:46more of that where there will be a lot
40:48of people who in in in whose interest it
40:51is to not have the network attacked and
40:53that will enable these communities and
40:56networks to stay secure Chris do you
40:58even you know screwed with that
41:00unfortunately you have to wrap up this
41:01panel but I will thank both Krishna
41:04Lizabeth for their time and then welcome
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