00:00hi everyone welcome to the a6 & Z
00:02podcast i'm here today with Luke
00:04Wroblewski he's currently a product
00:06director at Google which acquired one of
00:08his startups previously he had another
00:09startup acquired by Twitter he worked at
00:11Yahoo he's had quite a diverse
00:12background and basically is an expert on
00:14all things design for mobile I'm gonna
00:16try to live up to that but for this
00:19conversation today is our partner Connie
00:22Chan who is an expert on many things but
00:24especially covers China so I thought
00:27today we could actually just launch
00:28right in and talk about what it means
00:30you know to have this concept of mobile
00:33first design which I think was the title
00:34of your book yeah so just a little
00:37background on where that came from
00:39I was at Yahoo at the time and Flickr
00:41put out this iPhone only website because
00:45back then you couldn't actually make
00:46native apps for the iPhone you had to
00:48make these web sort of pseudo apps and
00:50what I was struck by was like how boiled
00:53down to the essence that product
00:55experience was if you looked at Flickr
00:57on a desktop there was like four
00:58drop-down menus each with like 20 items
01:00in there and there was like sub menus
01:02there talking about like 60 something
01:03things and when it came time to build
01:05the mobile experience for Flickr we got
01:08it down to six things and it was like
01:10the things that people do the most and
01:12this is what the core essence of the
01:13product was and it stuck in my head that
01:15the small screen and the constraints
01:18really forced you to focus and at the
01:20same time we had stuff where we could
01:22use your location whereas before we knew
01:24with 99% accuracy you were in the u.s.
01:26yay all right now we knew down like 50
01:29meters where you were so there is all
01:30this new opportunity and that got me
01:32thinking these constraints that focus
01:35you in these opportunities that open up
01:36new things you can do you got to a very
01:38different place when you did that then
01:40if you started with the desktop website
01:41traditional view of things it's almost
01:43the opposite I was playing out in China
01:45because when you describe and show some
01:47of these apps Connie it's almost instead
01:49of stripping it down to the basics it's
01:51almost crowding everything possible into
01:52a small screen China has been mobile
01:54first for several years now and because
01:57the way of thinking is so prevalent a
01:59lot of companies will start out with
02:00only a mobile app they don't even have a
02:02desktop version and so all the features
02:04and functionality for that company need
02:07to be fully serviceable in the mobile
02:09version the way I think about it on the
02:11desktop laptop kind of
02:13world is you have this big screen that
02:16you can fill with anything you want and
02:17as a result people fill it it's like the
02:19carpet that's in the bathtub you know
02:21you keep feeding it it will grow to the
02:22size of the bathtub and there's just
02:24this natural tendency like a vacuum of
02:26space that just you know you must it
02:28must be filled but it also makes making
02:31decisions really easy because you
02:32actually don't have to make a decision
02:34so like where does Bob's marketing
02:35feature go or just cram it in the bottom
02:37left corner on that site and there's you
02:39know 50 million things on it already
02:41whereas with a mobile device like
02:42there's no room for Bob's feature
02:44talking about the Google Photos app
02:46there are these things that were out of
02:48sight and out of mind for people and
02:50when we made those features visible and
02:53obvious to people all of a sudden usage
02:54of that skyrocketed can you describe
02:56that actually just kind of so we used to
02:59just have the stream view with their
03:01photos and that was all that was on the
03:03screen there's like the little three
03:04line hamburger menu and everything is
03:06there right and so what we did is we put
03:08a little bottom bar of navigation these
03:09like tab bars on both platforms Android
03:12and iOS that bring the core features of
03:15the app to the surface wouldn't that be
03:18like an obvious thing to do like design
03:20is always obvious in retrospect and you
03:23know like remember the lawsuit Samsung
03:25had against Apple about the iPhone look
03:27how well the design that's a black
03:29rectangle is so obvious well if it's so
03:31damn obvious why didn't nobody do it
03:33that's true before then right
03:35but once somebody puts in all the hard
03:36work and all the thinking and applies
03:38all the processes and they come up with
03:40something if it's good yeah it feels so
03:42yeah that's the way it should have
03:44always been I think that's the part that
03:45gets under recognized in design is how
03:48much happens under the covers to get you
03:50to quote unquote obviousness yeah I
03:53would use a twist on the word obvious
03:55which is more that it's intuitive and a
03:57lot of people criticize Chinese apps for
03:58looking too cluttered I don't think
04:00they're cluttered I think they're dense
04:01they're very dense there's a lot of
04:03information above the fold for any app
04:05that you open that's designed in China
04:07but I think of it as higher ROI because
04:09I get more data I get more information
04:10without having to skip over to another
04:13menu or without having to scroll down so
04:16simplicity is all about being intuitive
04:18not necessarily being minimal so let me
04:21push back on the word intuitive just for
04:23a second because I don't believe there's
04:24anything intuitive in the world
04:27from an understanding of the world
04:28around you and you build up knowledge
04:30and then you apply it if you look at a
04:31lot of the environments that people live
04:33in in Asia they are naturally very dense
04:35from an information standpoint period
04:37right so there's just a more familiar
04:39nough stew it there's an author by the
04:41name of Edward Tufte he used to in his
04:44seminars gauge the quality of a website
04:46by Counting how many links he could find
04:48on the screen and if there is more links
04:50that is a better interface because the
04:52information density is much higher it's
04:55very interesting to see now Apple going
04:57to a much lesser density in terms of
05:00their design if you've seen like the new
05:01music app like there's two boxes on the
05:04entire 6-inch screen so you know the
05:06pendulum has swung a little too far over
05:09on that front but I think there's a
05:11balance between those two things and
05:14it's not that things are cluttered if
05:17the things all make sense to you like
05:20when you're scrolling through an
05:21Instagram feed they're all photos you
05:23can just scroll forever
05:24no one Scrolls no one goes below the
05:27fold that's BS if you haven't understood
05:29context people will keep going so in the
05:31case of these Chinese websites if
05:32there's an understood context like all
05:34of these are shopping links all of these
05:36are whatever then the density can
05:38actually become a good thing when
05:39everything behaves differently and
05:41there's 15 million things that function
05:43in different ways all crammed together
05:45that's where the density starts to
05:47because people can't wrap their head
05:48around what does this do what does that
05:50do I was this different than this one
05:51the users can guess how to find this
05:53particular feature and the fact that the
05:55user can figure that out without having
05:57to look it up I think is what makes
05:59great design in Asia yeah it's it's
06:00interesting we had I used to work at
06:02eBay before I worked at Yahoo this is
06:04like 2002 to 2004 and we made a big push
06:08to China at the time we had all these
06:10conversations of well this doesn't work
06:12in China and I remember the local
06:14managers like arguing with me
06:16top aligned with labels and web forms
06:18don't work in China and China
06:21users want labels on left-aligned right
06:23so we tested it we put the top align
06:25labels above the form fields and we had
06:28like a 20% increase in conversions or
06:31I'm always biased to well let's put it
06:34to the test and let's compare and
06:35contrast what actually works or what
06:37doesn't I think that it sometimes works
06:39in that case but sometimes
06:41the design actually is different of what
06:43people are used to it what are some of
06:45the differences in sort of like really
06:48specific differences that you don't see
06:49in US apps I'm thinking of the
06:51constellation for example like I think
06:53that's a really interesting trend yeah
06:54in the US a lot of internet companies
06:56will have multiple apps and will choose
06:58to keep them separate standalone apps as
07:01opposed to in China a leap a for example
07:03would very unlikely create a separate
07:06app for Sesame credit or for some of its
07:08other products the idea that everything
07:10lives in one app is actually seen as a
07:12good thing in China because it's less
07:14friction at the end of the day so one
07:16very very small detail to point out in
07:18the alley Pei app is the app when you
07:20open it looks like a grid right and each
07:23grid has a logo and text underneath and
07:25clicking into it takes you to a bunch of
07:26new features you can completely tailor
07:29and customize just like your homescreen
07:31on your iPhone which items you want on
07:34the first row which items you want on
07:35the second round didn't people do that
07:37with remember Google home pages and they
07:40shut that down I used to love it I said
07:42Google that actually was exactly the
07:51idea of a portal but now it's just
07:52transferred to the phone what you're
07:54describing is a constellation of apps
07:55within an app which is a very Asian
07:56design quality but if you treat the
07:59homescreen as that equivalent then you
08:02can do that as you mentioned it's a
08:04constellation of apps like literally
08:06cluster yes a for example an uber lush
08:08uber eats it's a separate application in
08:10China those uber eats would live inside
08:13the uber app what's the rationale for
08:15that one is you don't have to re onboard
08:18payment credentials you don't have to
08:19create a new login system a lot of
08:21people in China don't understand why
08:23messenger is a separate application
08:25there are benefits and consequences
08:26separating it of course but one
08:28consequences for example messenger
08:30doesn't have a lot of the social sharing
08:31features that they would have if
08:33newsfeed or some kind of feed was tied
08:36to it I redesigned the Yahoo homepage
08:37back in 2008 I was super bundled we
08:40shoved everything together in one place
08:42and it was for the convenience of the
08:44user right you go in there here's all
08:46your weather here's all your stocks
08:47here's your local news here's searches
08:49your mail here's messenger Facebook used
08:51to have messenger to integrate it on the
08:54do so on the desktop all that stuff is
08:56shoved into one product inside a
08:59Facebook so it may just be a maturity
09:01angle it could also be a PC versus
09:04mobile concept maybe it doesn't work as
09:05well she use the example of Facebook
09:07they had a super bundled app something
09:09made them start to swing the pendulum
09:12the other direction and separate things
09:13and you're just saying it's cyclical
09:15like is there something concrete that
09:16drives that we in our bundle unbundle
09:19dance at least at Google kind of look at
09:21what are people doing in here how can we
09:24create more value and how can we can
09:25make it even better for them and if the
09:27answer is we need a standalone dedicated
09:29experience yay if the answer is we
09:31should integrate something then yay I
09:33don't know if anybody has like a firm
09:35rule of integration rules or separation
09:38rules there's to your point there's pros
09:40and cons of both well I also think it's
09:42different if you're talking about tools
09:43versus services and products interesting
09:46so for example photo editing tools it
09:48makes sense for a photo editing company
09:50to break that up into multiple apps
09:51because from a user metric standpoint I
09:53will download four or five of them but
09:55for a company like Facebook I only want
09:58one if it's the same exact network of
10:00people I think this is a much deeper
10:01conversation because what does bundling
10:03actually mean Apple comes out at WWDC
10:06and is like hey you can make apps inside
10:08of our messenger app hey you can
10:10integrate things into maps hey you can
10:13integrate things into our share sheets
10:15you can make custom Kiwi just launch G
10:17board which is a keyboard integration
10:19that has Google search inside of it
10:21bundled inside of the OS that Apple
10:24makes right so like what is bundling
10:26really mean in those kinds of situations
10:28an app isn't really an app it's a set of
10:30notifications it's could be a custom
10:32keyboard associated with it it's a share
10:34extension it's an integration in a
10:36messaging service it's certain you quote
10:38newer type apps like snapchat which is
10:40really not intuitive for a lot of users
10:42from a usability perspective there's
10:44this notion of here's a classic app that
10:45you see and it has you know the ability
10:47to post selfies and filters and browse
10:49stories but then there's sort of Easter
10:51eggs that are hidden in it and this is
10:53not the classic notion I'm an Easter Egg
10:54where it's like a little teeny surprise
10:56that you just get by accident you kind
10:57of giggle there are actually parts of
10:59the app that are entirely intentionally
11:01obscured or seemingly intentionally
11:02obscured from view so your parents don't
11:05find out how to use it
11:09these delightful little new things here
11:12and there and I think that's quite right
11:13but you know in the I don't know early
11:15two-thousands like my space is ugly
11:17Craigslist is ugly they're both
11:18successful successful apps are ugly and
11:21then we should make ugly apps and like
11:23similarly now you know snapchat is hard
11:25and I hear this right snapchats hard to
11:27use you should make the app hard use
11:29really just become in ways or that you
11:38have to just kind of go with the flow is
11:40there an Oprah no I think you should
11:41figure it out for yourself I don't think
11:42that argument would work with a big
11:43company though and yeah here's what
11:45happens like Facebook did this oh we
11:48should do this they know what they're
11:49doing right a classic example used to
11:51have this like nav system this hamburger
11:53nav system and you know when they're iOS
11:55apps they literally had like an HTML
11:57webview JavaScript rendering pseudo
12:01browser making the feed they hit and
12:03didn't write it in native code and the
12:05thing would crash and it was slow and
12:07memory was just a zoo and like they had
12:10so many bigger fish to fry than figuring
12:12out navigation because they had to
12:14rewrite the whole newsfeed inside of
12:16Objective C to make it work but as soon
12:18as Facebook finished that rewrite they
12:20went and built an a/b testing platform
12:22they figured out what works and they
12:23changed it and now it's that bottom tab
12:26bar right so you just run a dangerous
12:28game when you say oh Google did this
12:30Facebook did this snapchat did this
12:32because you're not in there you don't
12:34know why they're doing it you don't have
12:36the data and without that information
12:38you're just kind of guessing that it's a
12:39good thing after your piece last year
12:41everyone suddenly coming to you like how
12:43do I make the next we chat in their
12:45existing app which is exactly the wrong
12:47question it seems yeah and especially
12:49when they don't have the context of why
12:51it works in a certain country or why a
12:52certain decision was made they're
12:54copying the wrong thing what do you
12:56think about this snapchat if ocation and
12:58WeChat efficacious of iMessage that's
13:01going on so is that a case of copying or
13:03is that them just evolving like how you
13:04kind of tell the difference I hope
13:06that's the case of Apple realizing that
13:08chat needs more emotion built into it so
13:11for example a lot of the apps will have
13:13things that will look very colorful and
13:15are meant to provoke a lot of joy in the
13:18user but from a Western standpoint a
13:21and say oh that app looks childish why
13:23does it have a cartoon character dancing
13:25around why is there a big flash like
13:27spark of light behind this image right
13:29why is it making a catching noise when
13:31you're earning money they will look at
13:33that and think it's childish or gimmicky
13:35but it makes a feature or a use case go
13:38viral I was just thinking it's sort of
13:40like the lost in translation effect I'd
13:41call it the lost in translation effect
13:43when I think of that movie with Sophia
13:44Coppola and actually that movie bomber
13:46ah yeah I mean it was a good movie it
13:48was a well made movie but it bothered me
13:50because there was a certain element of
13:51everything is so garish and got Ian and
13:54exaggerated and a caricature of itself
13:57and I really resisted that and what
13:59you're describing sort of reminds me of
14:00that one of the things that you guys
14:02have both brought up now is this notion
14:03that seemingly obvious things are
14:05actually not that obvious that seemingly
14:07little things can have big impact so for
14:10example one feature I love in the WeChat
14:13version of stickers is that you can save
14:15a custom folder of your favorite
14:16stickers and the muscle memory here at
14:19heart is actually very important so I
14:20know within just a few taps how to get
14:23to a specific sticker every single time
14:25it's almost having like these
14:26autoresponder sentences built in to my
14:29keyboard but they're stickers in visual
14:31form can I find the exact same sticker
14:33in two clicks or do I need to scroll
14:35through a list of different stickers
14:37again can I change the order that the
14:39stickers are displayed to me so I can
14:41put my favorite ones in a specific
14:42folder right is that really unique to
14:44Asia Apple added the whole predictive
14:46emoji right that was a big deal it is
14:48hard to find something in that very
14:50large set of things and helping people
14:52find that's that thing in that large set
14:54of things is is good and I absolutely
14:56think there's cultural stuff that
14:57influences how people perceive the world
14:59and what they value and how much they
15:02value it and all that
15:03that totally plays into adoption of apps
15:06and services and things like this but
15:07when you get down to this feature
15:09usability level that's where I say it's
15:11a lot more Universal but you're kind of
15:13both indirectly dancing around here is
15:16this tension between AI first and mobile
15:18first because Luke is describing like
15:20what you can if you have them in a very
15:21predictive way and they can really kind
15:23of further your conversation efficiently
15:25and really facilitate a lot more then
15:28maybe emojis become a lot more
15:29expressive because of that predictive
15:31nature on the flip side what you're
15:32describing conahey it sounds like a
15:34first approach where you can have an
15:36entire sticker replace the whole thread
15:38of written text input is hard for
15:40certain languages right like character
15:42based input isn't very challenging on
15:44the typical keyboard that's why you have
15:46a lot of audio based input that's why
15:48you have stickers because hey it's a lot
15:50easier and this is in many cases for me
15:51to say a lot with a picture than it is
15:53for me to actually go through the
15:54process of trying to type it in a
15:57traditional way a lot of people use that
15:58as an excuse though for why people don't
16:00like to type Chinese on a keyboard but I
16:02don't think that's actually the case for
16:03a lot of the top-tier cities there
16:05anymore typing and pinging is not that
16:08much slower than typing in English text
16:11another example that I see in some Asian
16:13apps is the idea that you can use your
16:15finger to hold and press an area of the
16:18screen and it would change to another
16:20button much like on the PC when you're
16:23using your mouse and you're clicking on
16:24something or if you're right-clicking on
16:25something you had a different menu right
16:27on both apps such as WeChat and also la
16:30Paix there are areas of the app if you
16:31click down it will change to a different
16:34option frankly if it just was a
16:35layperson I hate it when moves
16:37around one of my biggest pet peeves so
16:39them a dedicated and razor is how you
16:41have the most frequent calls people you
16:43call the order keeps shifting so you
16:45can't even have a permanent sticky list
16:47of like your your dial pad 1 2 3 4
16:50drives me batty so it was a nice example
16:52of how little things can really quickly
16:54add up and make you I mean your example
16:56of the stickers is similar to this too
16:58right like you you're asking about the
17:00scale question I think this brings it up
17:02at scale something like an extra tap if
17:05you're doing it 50 times a day can
17:07really piss you the hell off and you
17:10know if you're in WeChat 24/7 even a
17:12tiny little shortcut like that long
17:13press makes sense to you because you're
17:17using it so often that you would
17:18appreciate that every step that you can
17:20save people on something that they do
17:22freeness I think it's related to it you
17:24were talking about if you're most
17:26commonly called contacts keep
17:28rearranging on you and you are calling
17:30people like five times a day you know
17:32that starts to really really irritate
17:34yes and we're on you well this is where
17:36I think there's also another AI problem
17:38in mobile where this is tension between
17:40on one hand the whole point is to have
17:42something predict and be intuitive and
17:44you love it when it works you absolutely
17:47and that's when you want to be able to
17:49specify intent the problem is that those
17:51two things are not the same for every
17:52single person so it's really tough to
17:54tell everything is turning to software
17:57everything is turning digital when
17:59everything is digital if I'd it's really
18:02freaking hard to find anything because
18:03everything is up there in some cloud
18:05something or other ething and so you
18:07need some predictive you need some
18:09guidance you need some assistance and
18:11the smarter it can be the better but
18:13nobody knows your brain like you do and
18:16I don't believe in a world where we get
18:19away completely from affordances you
18:21know a lot of people have this chat
18:22conversation it's not including us it's
18:25not really you talking to the thing
18:28there's buttons that show up but there
18:30is you know images that you click
18:31there's actual visual affordances of
18:33things that you can interact you and
18:35make the world behind the quote-unquote
18:37visible in a graphical and interactive
18:41I had my Alexa for years and I loved the
18:43thing but like I don't know what the
18:44hell it does alright every once in a
18:46while they send me an email it's like
18:47Alexa is no able to tell you the stock
18:49market quotes and type it just say it's
18:53actually funny because I get that weekly
18:55email from Amazon as well and it's the
18:57same header what's new and Alexa and
18:58they never give you a preview in a
19:00subject header they literally violate
19:01every best print practice around email
19:04because I have to find out what's new in
19:06Alexa well let's switch gears for a
19:08moment then because so far we've been
19:09focusing on mobile so what are some of
19:11the other interesting because I think
19:12what you bring up with Alexa which I
19:14find incredibly fascinating and I've
19:15written about this as well is that it is
19:17about design for a screen list world and
19:19so what are some of the new things like
19:21trends that are coming up that could
19:22change a lot of the design of
19:23discussions were having or would you
19:25argue that these universals are always
19:26gonna apply I mean what do you think I
19:28think the rear the constraint on all of
19:30this is the real world and the human
19:32body because we're just not evolving
19:34that fast in our society doesn't involve
19:37all that fast either so I don't know if
19:38you're familiar for like architectural
19:40shearing layers no what is that
19:41so architectural shearing layers is like
19:43things like the foundation really
19:45freaking hard to change things in your
19:47room really easy to change so it's like
19:49slow quick quick kind of models and
19:52there's certain things that just move
19:54really slow the size of our hands are
19:56not going to change and evolve and so
19:58dealing with the ergonomics of the
20:00and you've got to have certain size
20:02touch controls you have to have some
20:04sort of accounting for what kinds of
20:06gestures you can do and so on and so
20:08and I think that is a boundary in some
20:11ways and then the other boundary is like
20:13people talk about voice all the time but
20:15if we were here all talking to our
20:17phones while we're doing this podcast
20:19like it would not work there's like a
20:21time in place yeah for different inputs
20:23and when we get to myopic of screens are
20:26going away well no I mean a oels still
20:29here this is there even I make about
20:31elects all the time I mean the fact is
20:32like people tend to treat voice as this
20:35homogenous thing when in reality it is
20:37completely carved up in the social space
20:38you're really unlikely although who
20:40knows cuz people do surprise in their
20:42actual use of tech and we never know
20:43what people end up doing you're right
20:44you're very unlikely just be sitting
20:46here all talking to your phones verbally
20:48in that same exact space but when you
20:49are in Asia so interesting is that
20:51what's happening in Asia they're people
20:53use voice for a lot of things in Asia
20:54when I'm sending a WeChat a good chunk
20:57of my WeChat messages to people in Asia
20:59are all through audio and this is from
21:01public context because the point that
21:03I'm making is that you do that in the
21:05meeting right or even in like in the in
21:07a hallway or like in the vestibule of a
21:10restaurant or a lobby oh yeah oh
21:12interesting people will do this during
21:14meetings they'll do it in the hallway so
21:15I'll do it in the restaurants you're
21:17using audio input all the time and
21:18there's another almost like a Siri type
21:21product that lives inside WeChat right
21:23now so you can send it an audio message
21:25and we'll show you a visual response
21:27interesting but you can be a map it can
21:29be text it can be all kinds of see
21:30that's so interesting to think about
21:31that cultural context because one of the
21:33theses that I think about a lot is that
21:35the reason Alexa and echo works so well
21:37is because they are in a contained
21:39Sean Madden wrote this op-ed for me
21:41where he talked about how you can have a
21:43smart environment and a dumb device or
21:45you can have a dumb environment and a
21:46smart device so if you're in a stadium
21:48for example you're gonna have a very
21:50self-contained environment you can have
21:52a Disneyland with magic bands is a
21:54contained environment and you can have
21:56the smart device we're gonna get to this
21:58world where we're gonna have our smart
21:59phone which is smart smart devices like
22:01Alexa or echo and then you can have like
22:04a dumb environment and so what happens
22:05when that entire environment becomes
22:07sensor if I'd where you have a smart
22:08environment and a smart device and we're
22:11the rules change so I can't see us then
22:13maybe evolving to a world like what
22:15you're describing in Asia but culturally
22:17it seems like that's a sort of a
22:18leapfrog er for yes creating that an
22:21Asian right now it's very common to see
22:22someone walking across the street and
22:24just talking directly into the
22:25microphone in their phone that's totally
22:27ok I go back to this Richard Farson
22:30quote which is nobody smokes in church
22:32no matter how addicted our real world
22:34has norms and expectations and they may
22:36vary from culture to culture but I think
22:39that real world perspective sort of
22:41drives integration of input and what
22:44does or doesn't work an environment
22:46before people were getting notifications
22:49or messages on their phone you might say
22:50I would never check my message or my
22:53email during a meeting but a message
22:56from your wife for example is something
22:58you might look at during a meeting and
23:00just very quickly reply to text or put
23:02away but the fact that you might look at
23:03it during a meeting is something you
23:05might not have said that you would enjoy
23:07doing right it also depends on the
23:09device there's new devices that are
23:10designed for actually being screen liske
23:13we can't ignore that because as things
23:14get more intelligent you can be screen
23:17example I'm thinking of like Christina
23:18with Ringley you don't even need to have
23:20a phone when you have like a bracelet or
23:22a band or a ring on your finger that can
23:25notify for the most important phone
23:26calls you know your husband your child
23:28you know your an Apple watch you can
23:30have a glanceable design internally and
23:33and both you know in asian companies and
23:36in a company like Google and even with
23:38just an individual big company you've
23:40worked at some of both of you guys have
23:41worked at some of these different big
23:42companies how design decisions play out
23:44Tencent was able to do so many things
23:45because they were very orchestrated and
23:48architected like they're the the
23:50architects in the matrix and in this
23:53case like you know Google does not
23:54strike me to be that way like or is
23:56there a point of view I think there's a
23:57lot of tension right because you have
23:59people coming from the business case
24:00saying I need to push this thing that
24:02drives revenue and you have this other
24:04group that's saying I need to protect
24:05the user experience so that the overall
24:07platform maintains these or trusts and
24:09so there's a huge tension bigger than
24:12that you have lawyers that are also
24:14involved in those conversations
24:17the laws differ between all the
24:20different countries and there's things
24:21you can or can't do there's privacy
24:23people that get involved as well there
24:25is marketing people I get involved
24:27there's also what can you do on the
24:29engineering side how much work is it how
24:32there's hundreds of signals yeah at any
24:35point in time that you need to balance
24:37and strike the right it's not what's the
24:40word I'm looking for my is on purpose
24:42right off trade offs not the right word
24:44either cuz otherwise both of those
24:45suggests a regression to the mean that
24:46seems like that'd be the worst thing you
24:48find the sweet spot so this is how I
24:51like in a product managers job it's you
24:54have a very large sound board and
24:56there's like hundred knobs and here's
24:58the legal knob and here's the design
25:00knob and here's the you know like
25:01revenue knob and there's just thousands
25:03of knobs and you're kind of trying to
25:06find the right mix so that the song
25:08actually sounds good this is why
25:10startups do well because startups can
25:12hear that mix much more quickly because
25:14they can launch more quickly they can
25:16rev more quickly and they can monitor
25:17stuff more quickly if it takes you a
25:19year before you hear that mix like you
25:22know sort of traditional software
25:23Waterfall Department they'll take you a
25:25long time to figure out whether or not
25:26it sounds like or not
25:27yeah and that's very very painful I hear
25:30what you're saying that there's this mix
25:31and you have to get to that moment to
25:33hear that tune into that mix much sooner
25:34than later but is this really an
25:36algorithm almost that you have in mind
25:37for how much to wait one of those
25:39qualities versus another like if you're
25:41doing a linear model like 10x for the
25:43weight of users and 2x for the weight of
25:45management or I mean it seems silly to
25:47try to friggin wish right I would make
25:49my life 100 times easier it's the same
25:51thing like startup advice build a great
25:53product there's all of these like Palpa
25:59tubes that and this comes all let's hey
26:01let's do this that's easy right but the
26:03reality of the day is it's nothing like
26:05that it's a combination of a number of
26:07factors some of what you understand some
26:09of which you don't understand that play
26:11into what makes something work you know
26:13it makes it not work understanding all
26:15that as much as possible and trying to
26:17get feedback from that when you make
26:18those sorts of changes is the only way
26:20to really survive what's really
26:22interesting about this topic is the role
26:24of what a p.m. can do and the level of
26:27power they have are the level of
26:28influence they have you're not Primus
26:34somebody I said this to me this morning
26:36like do you mean Prime Minister
26:39but that role and their level of
26:41influence is so different across
26:42software companies right like so for
26:45some company is very engineering was
26:46some it's very business led and some
26:49places the PM's extremely empowered in
26:51some places they're not and they're more
26:53just organizing timetables no they're
26:55more they're more like program manager
26:56than product yeah yeah so I put our
26:58thing what does a PM do and can i
27:00distill it down with three things i
27:02think a PM does and immediately
27:04somebody's like ask 10 PM's what their
27:06job is and you'll get 10 different
27:07answers ultimately their job is to get
27:10products out the door but that means
27:11totally different things depending on
27:13yeah where you work and there's no way
27:15it completely varies by company and some
27:18of that culture comes from top-down some
27:20of that culture changes it's so
27:22different from each software company
27:23yeah that's it's the stage they're in
27:25right it's the type of people that they
27:27have working with them it's the type of
27:28product they're building product
27:31managers at Google that work on fiber
27:32are kind of in a very different world
27:34and the ones that work on robotics or
27:37you know ones that work on something
27:38like software as I guess my final
27:40question for you guys and is around this
27:42notion of what are some of the other
27:43interesting trends that you think are
27:45gonna change look right now I think
27:46we're still talking about what is what
27:48like what's not yet here visual input it
27:51goes beyond QR codes in the US we use
27:54the front of our phone we don't really
27:55use the back of it besides taking photos
27:57yeah it's like what you said we don't
27:59still use every part of our phone yeah
28:01we're not the camera and what about you
28:05are there any trends that you think are
28:06I think we're dancing this line with
28:08this bundle and bundle thing again in a
28:10broad sense and I would characterize it
28:12bigger than just apps but like how do
28:14services play in the OS how do they play
28:17in platforms how do they play in between
28:19those platforms right you remember we
28:21had the apps of the PC world and the web
28:24took off and that kind of changed the
28:25dynamic then we came back in the app
28:27stores and now we have this thing
28:29instant apps which is kind of an app
28:30inside of a web browser but it's really
28:32an app inside of the OS and so I think
28:35that's gonna play out in interesting
28:36ways as people rethink the notion of a
28:38closed container in today's world I'm
28:41going to kind of put things together
28:42bigger picture than that the whole world
28:45is going to become input and that's some
28:47extent output as well I don't know if
28:50you caught like some of the research
28:52doesn't he put out a couple years ago
28:53you touch a plant it does something you
28:56touch your doorknob it does something
28:57and all these things can become input
28:59and really trying to design for a world
29:01where everything is input not just
29:02putting your camera falling and pointing
29:05it at a face every surface can be an
29:06output so that's actually it really did
29:08a point because of the economics of
29:09Moore's law and everything becoming so
29:11cheap when everything becomes Sun
29:13certified and connected
29:15you basically have exactly that
29:16everything can become input and some can
29:18become already there in some ways in
29:20that you know just like it's cheaper to
29:22make a microwave with the clock than
29:24without it because of standard
29:26components are like you have to do all
29:28this custom work to remove the clock
29:29from an oven it's there
29:31similarly the cost of adding Wi-Fi two
29:33things is approaching a similar thing
29:35we're gonna have to pay a lot more to
29:37remove the network thing and make all
29:38the other components that work off the
29:39Wi-Fi thing or network thing or whatever
29:41happens to be here and at that point
29:43when everything's got on a radio and
29:44everything has sensor input becomes wild
29:46wild west that's great well thank you
29:49guys for joining the ACMG podcast thank
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