00:00hi everyone welcome to the a6 & Z
00:02podcast I'm sonal today we're talking
00:04about the tricky topic of crisis
00:06communications and this episode actually
00:08builds in a previous podcast we did
00:09around the why when and how of PR or
00:11public relations for startups joining us
00:14are the conversation again we have
00:15Margit when mockers who heads up
00:17marketing at understand Horowitz and
00:18previously co-founded the outcast agency
00:20and we have Kym Milosevic who was also
00:22at Outkast is on the communications team
00:24here and was formerly at Skype in this
00:26episode we're doing one of our hallway
00:28style conversations because it's one of
00:30those topics that seen through the
00:31outcomes only but the process behind
00:33those outcomes matters a lot and well it
00:36may seem obvious of those of us are in
00:37the inside it's a bit of a black box for
00:39those who aren't familiar with crisis
00:41comes 101 both market and camera a
00:43longtime veterans at PR and have
00:44observed and or participated in crises
00:47with companies of all shapes and sizes
00:48but since the first golden rule of
00:50crisis management is to never talk about
00:52what happened we can't share specific
00:53examples so instead we focus today
00:55especially given recent news and
00:57political events on the nuances and
00:59mindsets behind getting through a crisis
01:01from identifying one to fact discovery
01:03to making a statement to what happens
01:06after so markets the first voice you'll
01:08hear and she kicks off the conversation
01:09with the other golden rule of crisis
01:11management the golden principle is to
01:13never waste a crisis because something
01:15is happening at or to the company they
01:18found for customers employees or
01:19whatever the case may be and then it's
01:21an opportunity to make the company
01:23better better as a result yeah there's
01:25the layer of what are the articles and
01:28what do they say today and but there's
01:30the deeper layer it's like okay so what
01:32is what can we do to improve the company
01:35so that eight doesn't happen again so
01:36that we come out better on the other
01:38side and I think people think of a
01:40crisis often as a press thing versus a
01:43business thing and they're both
01:45oftentimes when companies think they may
01:47have a quote unquote crisis it is more
01:50of an internal situation that needs to
01:53be handled of course you always have to
01:55think about how you'd handle the
01:56situation should it become public but
01:58it's it's many times all the things that
02:01you have to do before it becomes public
02:03what got you in that situation in the
02:04first place right yeah definitely want
02:06to think about that and then in addition
02:08to think about well if we got sued and
02:10goes probably what do we say so your
02:12not just something you kind of make go
02:14away also so that's kind of hard to do
02:16make stuff go right there is media and
02:17people that hold you accountable but the
02:19bull isn't just to like contain it but
02:20to actually turn it to opportunities
02:22what I'm hearing you guys say yeah I
02:23mean I would be cautious about saying
02:25what opportunity can we make out of this
02:27because in some cases there's maybe not
02:29an opportunity so I know Margit you talk
02:31a lot about what's the brand opportunity
02:32here I think it's more like your brand
02:35is defined by how you handle these
02:37situations versus you taking a moment to
02:40say how do we turn this into a brand
02:42opportunity yeah I wasn't trying to be
02:44opportunistic it's like what is
02:45happening at the company that got us
02:47into this situation and what can the
02:48company do to become a better company
02:50the way you handle yourselves is very
02:52much determines how people feel about
02:54the the company overall and also this
02:58situation well this is great context
03:00because I would actually like to break
03:01down what is a crisis I know that sounds
03:02like a very existential question like
03:04what's a crisis but how do you define a
03:06crisis I mean is a crisis that just
03:07because your CEO is freaking out about
03:08something and you're in charge of comms
03:10and you got to worry about and that's
03:11good enough of a reason or well it's
03:13anything and everything that negatively
03:15impacts your business and how people
03:18perceive your business so it can be
03:21getting negative press because of
03:23something but it can also go all the way
03:25down like an oil spill right all of
03:27those are crises it's not like your CEO
03:29or somebody having a bad day or somebody
03:32being annoying on Twitter I think the
03:33thing that's often overlooked in a
03:35crisis that's very important it's like
03:37what's the culture around crisis because
03:39it happens is the proverbial s hits the
03:43then there's fight or flight and people
03:45often want to hide stuff so you want to
03:48create a culture around when you're in a
03:49crisis moment honesty and being
03:52transparent is prized and highly valued
03:55because you're not gonna get to the
03:56truth otherwise what you're saying here
03:57is that you have to have this baked in
03:59before there's an actual crisis and
04:00that's also baked into your culture you
04:02can't just suddenly manufacture
04:04out-of-the-blue these values of
04:06transparency and openness yeah and I
04:08think urgency is another really
04:11having that baked in before you go into
04:13a process like this or have to face a
04:15tough situation it's like how quickly we
04:17all gonna get a room to figure this out
04:19move forward respond to emails get
04:22together and do meetings who needs to be
04:25to be sorted up beforehand and then what
04:27level of urgency are we all holding
04:29ourselves to to quickly come together
04:31and take this seriously and make those
04:32decisions because that right there could
04:35really make something a lot worse I
04:38actually think there's a tricky bit
04:39beforehand sometimes people don't
04:41actually know when they have a crisis on
04:43their hands so how do you actually know
04:45this as a crisis and oftentimes when the
04:48communications folks get involved like
04:50you know there are 13 people who have
04:54been watching something yeah actually a
04:57large oil spill is fairly obvious but
05:00there's a large gray area of what
05:02constitutes a crisis and that's what I
05:05think it's important to have all the the
05:07key player your executive team have an
05:10antenna for oh this this could be bad
05:13and call it so that the process can kick
05:16in so you're right people might silently
05:18be observing things for ages but they
05:19don't speak up they don't think it's big
05:21enough there's not enough coordination
05:22like what's the right place for that
05:24conversation to happen well hopefully
05:25the comms person has a is a first class
05:28citizen and as part of the management
05:30team and you when you bring awareness
05:31you overhear things just like this could
05:33actually be a really bad thing let's dig
05:35into that and you just you know
05:37constantly make a part of the
05:39conversation yep I think just staying
05:41fairly paranoid is probably a good thing
05:43in this paranoid you know a lot of
05:45companies may discount how high-profile
05:48something could get like hey nobody
05:50cares about us were really small this is
05:53something every company goes through
05:54this reporter who's asking these
05:56questions will go away if we don't
05:58respond look we live in a fairly
06:00heightened environment now especially in
06:02tech and just to break it down for why
06:03why do you think that is it has a big
06:07impact on the world however you view
06:09that and yeah I think that's that
06:10invites more scrutiny and rightfully so
06:12yeah a lot of these you know you look at
06:14Facebook for example Google I mean these
06:16are communities that are much bigger
06:19than country in the Catholic Church and
06:23people even argue they're more power
06:24than governments right it's something
06:25that we're all using every day so
06:27incredibly important look these young
06:29companies they're raising a lot of money
06:30yeah these founders are getting an
06:33immense amount of responsibility very
06:35quickly very early a lot of times before
06:38you build their leadership skills and
06:40handle a lot of these situations it is
06:42often sometimes difficult to distinguish
06:43signal and noise but regardless of
06:46whether it's coming from media or you
06:49know the blogosphere or other sources
06:51your employees your customers it could
06:53be anywhere there if there is a signal
06:55is what I'm hearing so the
06:56identification of a crisis that
06:59yeah recognizing it but then from that
07:00point on take it seriously and then get
07:03those right people in the room my mantra
07:04never waste a crisis often is the
07:06impetus for people to actually built the
07:08crisis plan and the process and what not
07:10ideally you do you do that before and
07:12you have the right culture in place so
07:15if a crisis happens like what will we do
07:18they're sort of like modeling out what
07:20are the different scenarios what is the
07:21process we want all that predefined so
07:24you're not coming up with like who needs
07:27to be included and this that and the
07:28other so let's talk about the very first
07:30moment like you there's a crisis that
07:32could be a really bad media article
07:34that's slamming your your marquee
07:35product line it could be whatever you
07:37define as a crisis what's the very first
07:39step kim you mentioned a room like do
07:41you actually book a room and talk about
07:43it you might not be able to get all
07:45those people in the same room and might
07:46not all be people within your wine
07:48company and is it a warranty I mean like
07:49people call it a war room but oftentimes
07:51it's a dedicated phone number because
07:53everybody lives virtually so yeah legal
07:55you know I have legal that's incredibly
07:57important isn't it dangerous have
07:58illegal in the room that makes the
08:00conversation privileged which protects
08:01you okay so explain that to me if
08:03there's a lawsuit for example and you
08:04get the pose right if you're in if
08:06you're in the conversation with your
08:08lawyer present that's a protected
08:10conversation that also means any email
08:12conversations that happen there has to
08:13be a legal person on those emails
08:16I mean first it should be a phone call
08:17to legal to help them understand brief
08:20them on what's going on bring them into
08:22the loop and also get their advice on
08:23how we should be handling this so some
08:25of these companies are still fairly
08:26young and maybe they don't have a
08:27general counsel yet so you're also
08:30bringing in external counsel and
08:31sometimes it's a combination of both
08:32sometimes you need a particular legal
08:34expertise let's say in a patent case or
08:36whatnot right so there's legal there's
08:38the key stakeholders and you know who do
08:41they typically consist of hands on what
08:43it is if it's a personnel matter for
08:46sure HR is involved right if it's a
08:48customer matter the person in charge of
08:50customer success for sure
08:52is involved but yeah that kind of
08:53depends on what the flavor flavor of of
08:56it is and then it's very important that
08:57the people in the room can actually make
09:00decisions can this to the CEO be there
09:02yeah unless the CEO wants to outsource
09:05the crisis unless the CEO is the problem
09:07okay so the other people in the room are
09:10usually decision makers mm-hmm there
09:12there should be empowered to have
09:13decision people who like fix the problem
09:15or we're first aware of the problem with
09:17the technical expertise to understand
09:19the problem and present it right yeah
09:20but people I mean come on these guys are
09:22building startups what if they're too
09:23busy like can't face initially outsource
09:25some of that information gathering phase
09:26look if it's a crisis it's something
09:28that fundamentally impacts their
09:30business so you need to have the most
09:32senior decision-makers
09:34involved of course this is gonna change
09:36if you're talking about a Google size
09:37company versus a 200-person company
09:39right it could be like the person that
09:41runs AWS versus you know the CEO but
09:44let's say Netflix went down
09:46I think Reed Hastings would want to know
09:48and care and something about yeah you
09:50have to be able to move very very fast
09:52so even things like what is the first
09:54response that we put out let's say we
09:56put out a quick thing on Twitter
09:57acknowledging that we're working on it
09:59like that needs to be done pretty
10:01quickly there's a whole other audience
10:02there that you have to be considering
10:04which is policy makers you know are we
10:06in a highly regulated industry so that
10:08puts a whole other spotlight on you and
10:11you have to be incredibly buttoned up
10:13you know people are watching you maybe
10:16we need to communicate to them before we
10:18communicate to the public the question I
10:20have is there's a lag often between you
10:22have when you have the facts you know
10:24what the truth is and when you're just
10:25information gathering and you have an
10:27initial response and then an actual
10:28response so kind of walk me through the
10:30micro and that's very gathering phase it
10:33can often be more complicated than you
10:35would think sometimes people are not you
10:38know you don't get the full version the
10:40first time around some people don't know
10:42because they've been told something by
10:44someone else and then it can take a long
10:46time to actually gather all the facts
10:48because in some cases there are lots of
10:50different parties involved sometimes the
10:52parties aren't speaking to each other
10:53everybody has sort of their agenda or
10:56her feeling so it's just hard to figure
10:57out okay what's the actual truth
10:59sometimes when you're in in our position
11:02it feels a little bit like you
11:04being handled a bowl of yarn and then
11:06you start pulling it unraveling in and
11:08out other facts come out and you have to
11:10sort like what's actually true versus
11:12not and it's sort of this long drawn-out
11:14process where if if you are on the other
11:17side handing out information just hand
11:20over the entire sweater like share
11:21everything possibly be relevant if you
11:24have all of the facts then you have all
11:26of the good all of the bad all of the
11:29potential problems and then you can
11:30really do a comprehensive job of
11:32improving what is wrong either
11:34culturally or legally or product wise or
11:37whatever else right so just put it all
11:40out there and then the business can do
11:43what the business needs to do the people
11:45can move forward the way they need to do
11:47and then the PR person can represent the
11:50right level of information correctly but
11:53the underlying values that I'm hearing
11:54is first like first a really trust your
11:56PR person like your comms crisis person
11:58like tell them everything even if you
12:00don't think it bears on it or doesn't
12:02because they're the ones who have to
12:03knit it together and they're often gonna
12:05be your voice publicly too because PR
12:08folks are the ones who are taking all
12:10the calls from the media they're
12:11representing you and they can't
12:12represent you well or accurately or
12:15fairly if they don't know what the facts
12:16are and the other value besides trust is
12:18this openness I'm hearing because I
12:20think the instinct way I think of
12:21therapy as an analogy what's the point
12:23of hiring a therapist if you're not
12:24gonna tell them the truth and you're
12:25just sharing the same lies you lie to
12:26yourself without talking them about it
12:28no I'm serious like if you think about
12:29it like a crisis feels like a moment of
12:31therapy with you and the CEO and not to
12:33minimize it if there's a problem at the
12:35company you know I think people assume
12:38that people lie but people do also
12:40sometimes lie to themselves because what
12:42is really going on is sometimes very
12:44hard to say it's a psychological thing
12:46well they often are feeling attacked you
12:49know it starts with let's say a claim
12:51somebody's come out to make about your
12:52company it could be a lawsuit from
12:54another company it could be a story
12:56that's coming out and you know trying to
12:58do an expose on the company or make a
12:59claim and so you know you immediately
13:02are put on the defense these founders
13:04these CEOs it's their company it's their
13:06baby so yeah that I think it's normal
13:09for it to become a heightened emotional
13:11situation and with that it's gonna come
13:15therapy and there's a bit of detective
13:16work that needs to get done and some of
13:18the folks involved may not understand
13:20what information is most relevant to
13:22when you're dealing with it so you have
13:24to ask really smart questions our job is
13:27to ask all those paranoid questions to
13:30figure out like okay that's normal to
13:32you but that's not normal to the regular
13:33world there's very the phenomenon here
13:35and have noticed this in particular with
13:36tech folks and I've worked those kinds
13:38of folks for a long time as well is that
13:40there's a sort of belief of truth is
13:42what's in code and what sort of like the
13:44sort of neutral idea of facts there's a
13:46surprise that perception can be reality
13:49well you also have to think about the
13:51current environment and what's going on
13:52like what are the media paying attention
13:54to chasing so you know there we all
13:57experience there in us we all experience
13:59sort of what's been going on with uber
14:00recently there was n ofit's last year
14:02there are you know these companies that
14:04go through these big media cycles and so
14:07that's very much on people's mind and so
14:09when you can see maybe similar patterns
14:11or yeah they've become reference points
14:14right is this like that sometimes these
14:16comparisons you just get lumped in yeah
14:18and it is unfair where companies they're
14:21just mostly very specific situations I
14:23find it most often happens to maybe
14:25companies that are misunderstood or
14:26maybe haven't done as great of a job
14:28with their their story they might get
14:31lumped in because people just don't
14:33understand it as well so we like
14:34spotting that and then the process kicks
14:37in and there was this other loop that
14:39you identify the crisis you do the quick
14:41huddle and then you have these daily or
14:42hourly phone calls you just know that
14:44usually every one of those calls
14:47they spin up another set of activities
14:49yeah so for example you have a product
14:52problem well should we do a recall right
14:55and then somebody has to go it's like
14:57well what's our inventory how many
14:58products are affected how much will that
15:01cost us right and do we have all the
15:03right people together to help us figure
15:04this out so in some cases you may need
15:07to hire a crisis firm these types of
15:09folks are very accustomed to actually
15:11jumping in very quickly what are some of
15:13the tips you have for thinking about
15:14crisis firms versus regular PR firms
15:17like what's the difference I mean do you
15:18do a Google search like crisis PR firm
15:20how do you find these people Google
15:22search names will pop up but
15:24business is so discreet it works purely
15:27by referral yeah and if you worked with
15:29them then you know like oh they handle
15:31this and they handle that but like they
15:32can't talk about their work so it's yes
15:34purely a referral thing they can't put
15:36all their clients on their website
15:37necessarily so there's the
15:39identification of the crisis a quick
15:40huddle with all the key stakeholders to
15:42quickly figure out if there's an initial
15:44response and then there is the getting
15:46everyone together to actually talk about
15:48the what and the fact gathering phase
15:50right and then there's how do we respond
15:53after we've done the fact of gathering
15:55what happens in fact finding takes too
15:56long and you need you feel this urgency
15:58to respond crises are schizophrenic
16:00because you do need to show that you're
16:03on it but I think people often
16:05over-rotate on having the statement I
16:08actually think the way to think about it
16:10and it's more important is okay so
16:11people have a certain understanding of
16:13your company before the crisis and when
16:16it's all said and done what you want
16:19them to think about the company after
16:22the crisis and you do get some time and
16:24then can you put it behind you where
16:27people go like oh that's VW they cheated
16:31on their emissions testing and this is
16:34what happened and now I can buy that car
16:36again that's the that's and that can
16:39take a while yeah I would say though
16:41that a big claim is levied or a big
16:46accusation is made there is I think kind
16:48of a reasonable time in which the
16:49company needs to respond so strike the
16:52just right balance of response and yeah
16:55it was more of a yes and it's not like
16:56you go quiet in the time that I'm just
16:58saying in the arc of history do you
17:00actually get to end or does a
17:01permanently tarnish I just don't think
17:04about that right don't over rotate on
17:06the response at the expense of actually
17:07trying to figure out what it is I'd love
17:09to get your guys's thoughts on the right
17:11way to do this if you guys have said in
17:12the past like own it own your narrative
17:13and I agree that's a good thing to do
17:15but it feels like people are now sort of
17:16automatically playing this playbook like
17:18you just automatically issue an apology
17:20I just totally freaking disagree and VW
17:23did none of that they went through a
17:25little legal process yeah how much they
17:27need to give their customers back they
17:28could have saves themselves sometimes
17:29like you're saying as I think as I think
17:33I don't think that every company just
17:37automatically apologize
17:38I mean I think some companies wait for
17:40like bad cycle number five to go like
17:43alright I may have to you know and then
17:45some apologies are just shitty right so
17:48yeah I think Bend I forget who where did
17:52this quote originated but like when you
17:55that's a been quote so if you if you're
17:57going to own it which if you actually
18:00screw it up you should actually one of
18:03those things you do need to take time to
18:05understand what the facts are yeah and
18:08and what are you apologizing for you
18:11don't wanna I think rush that too much
18:14because number one you want it to be
18:16thorough you want it to be accurate and
18:17you want to finish in you and you know
18:20talking about how do you react to the
18:22situation I think this is where you
18:23really have to go in and consider like
18:25who are we as a brand
18:26what is our voice how do we normally
18:29communicate with people should be kind
18:31of similar to how you respond to
18:33everything else should it have a special
18:34fuel well those are all the things that
18:36you have to figure out because each of
18:37these situations it's gonna be so
18:38incredibly unique but are we people who
18:40blog a lot do we have a really vocal
18:42community and we're talking to them all
18:44are we stealth and we actually are
18:47rarely out there ever you know would it
18:49be really setting a huge precedent for
18:52us to write when we've never really
18:53talked about what we're doing up to this
18:55point I mean I I hate to ask this and
18:56what's a playbook for owning it
18:58do it properly do it not with all the
19:01words that you know are usually used we
19:04regret the error blah blah blah person
19:07remote sounds like no offense to the
19:09lawyers found some lawyer wrote it to
19:11protect you while you're apologize like
19:13actually do it this is what happened
19:14here's how we're fixing it you know on
19:16and on and on right and then with a
19:18heartfelt apology right that that it's
19:22you know you can't expect so if you
19:25don't do it properly this is this
19:27cognitive dissonance right well yeah one
19:28company then you have this weird other
19:31language and I don't actually understand
19:33what happened but you keep wanting you
19:34to buy your stuff it just doesn't quite
19:36I mean I know that pops in in my mind as
19:38Amazon they had a huge outage and they
19:40never have an outage and they did like a
19:42very detail to your point very factual
19:45like here's what happened there was a
19:46cascading error it went from this system
19:48of the system I did read it carefully I
19:50don't remember them actually saying like
19:52Gimli sorry for this but they did say
19:53something to the effect of we that we
19:56care about you and me this is very top
19:58of mind for us and you know the thing
20:00that that that that example shows it was
20:02also appropriate for the reader
20:05developers data people right so it's
20:08just really hard to do anyway hand
20:09waving to a community like that and yeah
20:11you know trust me it's not gonna happen
20:13Salesforce actually has it was a really
20:15good example way back in the day when I
20:18was still at outcast they had some
20:20outage from God that was way more common
20:21then but because you know yeah weren't
20:24all as savvy at it as we are now and
20:26what they did they went full
20:28transparency they put up a site and it
20:30was a permanent website and you could
20:32just see what the status was and people
20:35calm down because they could just yeah
20:37go to that separate site well I was just
20:39looking at the podcast we recently did
20:40we're one of the machine learning
20:41startup founders described how when it
20:44comes to machine learning and AI it
20:46feels like a black box a lot of people
20:47and so you kind of want to actually
20:49intentionally give transparency to how
20:51the algorithm arrives at a decision or
20:53and that I think this problem will come
20:55more and more as you have a lot of tech
20:56that's geared to people they don't know
20:57quite who to blame I think this is where
21:00it's really important what your record
21:02is up to the date the crisis happens
21:04because of the culture point they
21:06actually well have like you articulated
21:08what it is that you guys do who you guys
21:11are what you stand for have you built
21:13relationships in the media do people
21:16feel like you've been there trust worth
21:18right like have you built that trust if
21:20you don't have much of that you're gonna
21:23be in a much much worse place because
21:26people are coming from a lack of
21:28understanding and they're probably gonna
21:30assume the worst but not everybody has
21:32access to top-notch PR and comms people
21:36I mean they might be starting out they
21:37might have a very junior person working
21:39with them how do they sort of get that
21:41sort of trust and currency if they don't
21:43you know might just be trust with their
21:45community it doesn't necessarily have to
21:46be like through PR immediate but how
21:49much are they talking directly to their
21:51customers like what is that language
21:52that they're using directly through that
21:54product to handle things so and we talk
21:56to people about building their brand
21:57it's also like how do you build yourself
22:00a really strong brand that can withstand
22:02some of these crisis situation
22:04where you can maybe come out on out of
22:06it like better for it versus like even
22:11yeah the analogy that I think we've
22:12we've talked about internally was like
22:13karma points yeah yeah the bank yeah
22:16that's sort of in my head like you
22:18basically have a bank account of
22:20goodwill right you have credits and
22:22debits and if you if you don't build up
22:25any credits with your community whether
22:27they be customers or employees or
22:29investors or press or whatever and then
22:32you actually screw up you're instantly
22:34in the red and that's just really hard
22:36that's a much bigger hole to dig
22:38yourself out of I mean honestly the the
22:39Korean theme that keeps coming up over
22:41and over and over again is it really
22:42does go all down to culture so I heard
22:45what is so somebody's got to be
22:46monitoring what's going on like what are
22:48your customers saying yeah what's
22:50happening on Twitter if you have a big
22:52media and reddit what are they doing how
22:53do you do that in a constructive way
22:54though because I can't imagine it's very
22:57constructive while you're trying to
22:58figure this out you already have all
22:59this information these information
23:01streams coming to you do you have like
23:03an hourly report a daily report does
23:05everyone look at it at once do you send
23:06a report to the people all the
23:07stakeholders or someone gather it if
23:09you're in the middle of a crisis in a
23:10war room you can barely check your phone
23:12how do you I mean kind of break it down
23:14for me like tactically that's why you
23:15you have to have this core team that are
23:18in your either virtual or real war room
23:20who are you know all communicating with
23:23each other very clearly on here what are
23:25touch points are gonna be so in this
23:27situation we need to check back hourly
23:29or we're gonna get back on the phone all
23:30at four and here's what we're gonna have
23:33figured out by then and then here's
23:35who's in charge of this monitoring
23:36here's how these reports are going to be
23:38going out we're gonna come back at this
23:39time and figure out okay based on that
23:41here's what we're going to do there's
23:43also this element of some people do
23:45really well in a crisis and some people
23:48do not well yeah in a crisis and some
23:51people look very good at listening says
23:54like this is what the community is
23:56actually saying and some people like
23:57need to put their blinders on a lot of
24:00the ability to manage through is sort of
24:03the ability to deftly manage read the
24:07room read the signals understand who is
24:10good at what who can handle what to get
24:12to the outcome that right I need to get
24:14one of the most important parts of this
24:18is what happens on the internal
24:19communication side it is so important to
24:22be talking to the employees about what's
24:24going on ideally they know if it's a big
24:27story that's gonna break they know about
24:28that story before it breaks and they
24:30understand you know where it's coming
24:33maybe background the real story if it's
24:35different what have you how do you guys
24:38feel about we only see this tension
24:39between communicating and then leaks so
24:41like what's the right level so many
24:43situation it's situationally very very
24:45specific I will also say you oughta
24:48start a internal communications cadence
24:52very early on don't wait for the crisis
24:54you want to have built trust with the
24:56employees because let's say there's a
24:58lawsuit your company all of a sudden is
25:00in a lawsuit you feel is completely
25:02unfair but like you are very much
25:04shackled the lawyers are telling you
25:05this pending litigation you're you can't
25:09afford a leak even if you are doing an
25:12all-hands meeting and there's nothing
25:13written down you know stuff could be
25:15work order people could speak it anyways
25:17you just can't say anything if you have
25:18established trust with the employee base
25:20beforehand they will have faith that
25:22you're doing the right thing for the
25:24company and that you would be more
25:27forthcoming were you able to that's
25:29great right so that is just important to
25:31establish you know way before you hit a
25:33problem it's also quite frankly a
25:35baseline the barometer it's like a
25:37lie-detector test like is this person
25:38telling me the truth from the previous
25:39conversations or are they talking really
25:41weird all of a sudden how do we normally
25:43do those all hand meetings how do we
25:45normally email who do those things come
25:47from how are these like what is the
25:49culture of our company and how is that
25:51so far showing up and how we communicate
25:53there is there's very much a reason to
25:56do the opposite if you want a signal to
25:59the company look this is a this is a big
26:02moment for the company this is a
26:03make-it-or-break-it moment you might
26:05want to use the opposite tactics which
26:07is you know if you do an all-hands
26:10meeting you might want to do an email
26:11and saying like everybody drop what
26:12they're doing and show up right here to
26:15shock and awe right you just need to
26:17understand what the what the regular
26:19framework is and whether you want to use
26:21that regular framework or you want a
26:23counter program and signal you know a
26:25big moment that way what's the point of
26:27that though not hiding we may not be
26:28able to answer all of their questions
26:30want to hear him we want to bring people
26:31together it feels like a rumor mill
26:32fertile ground for a rumor mill cuz
26:34everyone then Pat Peters about and just
26:35let you things is about word people are
26:38gonna talk about anyway I can't comment
26:41on this but I'd like that didn't you
26:42have to hide right and it's also just
26:44like you says just that you care about
26:46them you care enough to bother exactly
26:48so let's say you've done this you know
26:49there's two phases we've described you
26:51have this information gathering phase of
26:52fact-finding you've been updating either
26:54publicly or internally all these
26:55different factors and now we're in the
26:57actual response phase like the formal
26:59response you might issue so let's just
27:01go back now to the last phase which is
27:03after the crisis well I think you divide
27:05this up in phases and I'm not even sure
27:06that actually worked because it's all
27:08one sauce from beginning and sometimes
27:12you don't even know that it's over
27:14because it's always one other shoe that
27:17can drop you think you're done but
27:18you're not out of it morphs there's more
27:21revelations you get a new phone calling
27:23you're like oh really I mean where
27:26you kind of get all the information on
27:27the front it's impossible to control and
27:35that's why to markets points some people
27:37are better in those situations than
27:38others communications people are very
27:40comfortable in those situations because
27:42we're used to not being able to control
27:43I've got to say I would drive you're in
27:47the greatest of all grey zones yet in
27:50the public light and honestly if it's
27:52public sometimes you don't still know
27:53yet what all the facts are and yeah all
27:56the players I think stories get written
27:57and they can be wrong that can mean
27:59using stuff that could be really an
28:01inaccurate focus it's just it's a gray
28:04area so there's no phases and then
28:06there's the story that is out there
28:08externally and really trying to
28:10understand okay so this is how it's
28:12being perceived based on the information
28:15that they have so how do we handle that
28:19and any factor that it and how do you
28:21factor that in like then do you then
28:23think like okay now we need to correct
28:25the record and give them the reality or
28:26that's okay like there's a part of like
28:28yes you got to get the facts out there
28:30you have to make sure you have all those
28:33and then you also have to figure out
28:34like what's your argument like how you
28:37piece it all together what are those
28:39important facts to piece together for
28:40people so what do you tell
28:42reporter on the other end more
28:43importantly the question this is the
28:44question I wanted to get at what do you
28:46think about going off the record and
28:47telling the real backstory and then
28:49certain things on the record off the
28:50record how you managed that well so it
28:54some folks are very open to
28:55off-the-record commentary some folks are
28:57not advised it though I do particularly
29:01why not have a trusted relationship
29:02here's where we're coming from and also
29:05here is why we are not commenting
29:07publicly yeah right lots of very
29:09legitimate very ethical good reasons not
29:14to go on the record there are a million
29:16shades in every every story worth
29:19reporting has a million shades of grey
29:21in it so what happens if people don't
29:22believe you you've got a problem when
29:26you get arrested something like that
29:27your lawyer doesn't actually want to
29:28know kind of yeah whether you did it or
29:31not because their job thank you I
29:33actually like to know really what
29:34happened because once you lie to the
29:38media you're basically
29:40so never lie just don't don't because
29:43anything to comment you you can I
29:48believe the 50 you can say like I can't
29:51help you with that one if you lie you've
29:54just screwed yourself because the whole
29:56point is to get through this crisis and
29:59have customers employees and media
30:03believe that when you say something that
30:07they can buy the product or take the job
30:10and once you break that like with media
30:13is basically a recoverable well and
30:14they're just gonna find out well there's
30:16not right so there's an ethical
30:18component to it obviously right there
30:21comes a point when you're in our jobs
30:22always just like you know what you guys
30:24do that I have to be out of here because
30:26and and that is in in tension with the
30:30other component which is extreme equally
30:33important which is loyalty because you
30:35don't want to ditch you know a friend or
30:38a company or brand just because the
30:41going got tough that happens to everyone
30:42but there is a line and every person has
30:45to decide for themselves what is that
30:46line is there such a thing that has a
30:48difference between a personal crisis and
30:50a business crisis yeah when you work for
30:52a company here do you think this is like
30:53the biggest thing that I think founders
30:56have to go through if you're a CEO of a
30:57large company you get it you know
30:59there's no separating you from that
31:01company it's maybe harder for some of
31:02the earlier stage tech founders to have
31:05to go through and realize is that they
31:07think okay this is this very personal
31:09thing and I don't want it to affect the
31:11company so I will go deal with this
31:13personal thing on my own and they don't
31:15necessarily treat it like a company
31:17crisis early enough and then they have
31:21to learn the hard way when it becomes a
31:22full-blown right because you're saying
31:24there really is no division there is no
31:26division and especially if you're a
31:27founder CEO you and the company are
31:30essentially the same and even if the
31:31focus let's say of the stories are on
31:34the personal issue guess what your
31:36company is gonna be mentioned in every
31:38single one of those stories so it
31:39becomes a brand issue for your company
31:41regardless yeah we talked a little bit
31:42look immediately at the end of a crisis
31:44if there is an end any thoughts there
31:46yeah so post crisis isn't actually not a
31:49moment in time a lot of people look at
31:50like are the stories stopping and
31:53consider that the end if the company
31:55actually did something wrong or has an
31:58opportunity to improve whether it's been
32:00portrayed fairly or not the end of the
32:02crisis is really once you've worked
32:04through all of that right have you
32:06improved your privacy policies have you
32:09shipped a new phone have you you know
32:11have you improved employee morale or
32:13culture or whatnot right and that takes
32:15a much longer time but one thing
32:17actually that is important to point out
32:18here as others in the company they want
32:20to feel like okay we're out of this
32:21crisis so when are we gonna tell our
32:24comeback story should people do this
32:28don't rush it I think that is you're not
32:31saying don't do it at all you're saying
32:32don't rush I think that's probably one
32:33of the biggest you know mistakes that
32:35companies make is by trying to do it too
32:38early when they don't have enough
32:40progress or milestones or growth to show
32:43that they have started to turn around
32:45and they may put their CEO or
32:47spokesperson out there a little too
32:49early they're not quite ready for that
32:51turnaround story what you end up with is
32:53a story that is maybe 80% of rehashing
32:55the past yeah 80% of where you're going
32:58in the future you want that flip I
33:00really feel for the CEOs and it's
33:02there's no amount of talking that gets
33:04them to really appreciate this
33:07there may be a hundred and fifty stories
33:10that are all very very critical rightly
33:12or wrongly no matter what there's one
33:14turnaround story it's just you only get
33:18one of those look if you well what would
33:24you like the company to do is just
33:26quietly improve and we're like no one
33:28the customers should know that's quite
33:30unfair and the bar is pretty high for
33:32getting one of those trust me they they
33:35tend to not get written unless they're
33:37deserved it was a quick wild tour
33:38through crisis PR thank you for joining
33:40the webcast thank you thank you
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