00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael
00:02Copeland in this segment of the podcast
00:05sonal catches up with Lila Jinnah the
00:07founder and CEO of sama Soares summer
00:10source is a nonprofit that uses
00:12technology to connect marginalized
00:14people around the world to digital work
00:17the discussion that follows covers the
00:19gig economy remote work and the business
00:22of nonprofits in the end for Lila it's
00:26all about alleviating poverty through
00:28impact sourcing which is where sonal
00:30begins the conversation well let's just
00:32start off by talking about what that
00:34even means like what is impact sourcing
00:36sure impact sourcing is the idea that we
00:40can reduce social inequity by building
00:44social impact into the supply chain of a
00:47product or service so in the case of
00:50digital work it means recruiting people
00:52who are non-traditional workers people
00:54who are marginalized in some way could
00:56be veterans who lack employment
00:58opportunity or in our case people living
01:01below the poverty line in the US and
01:03abroad to increase their incomes through
01:07the digital economy so it's sourcing
01:10it's deliberately sourcing in a way that
01:11creates social impact I've heard you
01:14talk before about how one of the maybe
01:16not problems of one of the trends and
01:18the current model of doing a lot of
01:20nonprofit work or work that has impact
01:22is that people tend to give back at the
01:24end of the value chain versus in the
01:26supply chain can you actually break down
01:27how things currently work now and why
01:29impacts who are seeing is different sure
01:32so I think when most people think of
01:34doing good they they think of it as a
01:37separate category of activity from
01:40making money so we think about making
01:43money from 9:00 to 5:00 and then our
01:46weekends we volunteer for the PTA or
01:48help out with a soccer team exactly it's
01:52it's an add-on and it's a you know you
01:54make profit through your day-to-day work
01:56activities and then you donate or you
01:58give back with what you make some of
02:01what you make that way of thinking we
02:03often apply directly to our philanthropy
02:06models at broader scales if you look at
02:09how corporate philanthropy works there's
02:10a lot of emphasis on these you know one
02:12for charity kind of programs so we'll
02:14take 1% of profit and we'll give it away
02:16or 5% of profit or we will for every
02:20product you buy give away one of
02:22something else and while that's
02:24certainly an improvement over zero I
02:27think the long-term win is to disrupt
02:31the way that we do business to embed the
02:34good in the business rather than
02:36externalize it is something that happens
02:38after you know we take the profit so can
02:42do something with it work itself it
02:43should be higher up in the P&L I worked
02:45in poverty alleviation for many years
02:47and saw a lot of programs on the ground
02:50that we're trying to address the
02:52problems that stemmed from poverty so
02:55you know one of the problems I've worked
02:57on in the past is sex trafficking and
02:58the primary driver of sex trafficking is
03:01lack of income generating opportunities
03:03for women and their families which force
03:07them into this horrible trade people
03:10aren't going into that trade because
03:12they don't know any better
03:13they're going into it because there are
03:15zero economic alternatives so if we want
03:17to end sex trafficking educating people
03:20I really don't think it's gonna solve
03:21the problem but creating better jobs for
03:24those women and making sure that they
03:27have the appropriate training to attain
03:29those jobs that's the way we're going to
03:30solve that problem and so many other
03:32problems follow that pattern and that's
03:34the that's the thesis of impact sourcing
03:36you're basically talking about people
03:38who don't have other opportunities and
03:40so one of the memes we hear about a lot
03:42is around the gig economy and you know
03:44the opportunities it presents or doesn't
03:46present and we don't have to focus on on
03:48that but in the broader context of that
03:50one thing that's interesting about the
03:53scenario is a question that I heard
03:54people ask often is well what's the
03:56alternative like what else would they be
03:57doing if they weren't doing X Y or Z so
03:59I want to hear your thoughts about that
04:00and how that plays into what you guys do
04:02for the communities that you you you
04:05impact source from if that's the right
04:07way to express it sure it's a brilliant
04:10question because it gets back to to a
04:13debate that's long been raging around
04:15sweatshops and you know people like me
04:17and famously Nick Kristof have argued
04:20that what we often would consider a
04:23sweatshop here in the West could be what
04:26developing country regard as a decent
04:28job now you know I think that there is a
04:32very clear line and that line is paying
04:37I think factories that pay living wages
04:39and respect basic worker protections
04:42like working hours paying overtime sick
04:47leave etc sure we might say this is
04:50boring work you're working on an
04:52assembly line that you know can't be
04:54great for your brain
04:56etc but I often think that's a very
04:58paternalistic view because people who I
05:02talked to who are in poor countries are
05:05typically desperate for job
05:06opportunities and happy when a factory
05:08opens up and so I think our challenges
05:12is not to regulate those factories out
05:15of existence but to ensure that they are
05:18providing the right sorts of social
05:21protections and benefits for workers and
05:23the gig economy is interesting because I
05:26think we see a similar pattern it's I've
05:29seen many people quickly criticize the
05:31gig economy for not providing adequate
05:33social protection I think in that case
05:36it's a little bit different from the
05:38factory model you know or the the
05:41sweatshop argument in that people have a
05:44lot more choice and agency with
05:46smartphones and with more flexible
05:48working arrangements that the gig
05:50economy allows and I have yet to meet a
05:53worker this is just anecdotal but we
05:57talked to a lot of lower-income people
05:58who benefit from the gig economy who
06:00feels exploited through one of these
06:03platforms I would say that the biggest
06:05risk we face is that the network effect
06:09that's produced by many of these
06:10marketplaces which creates this
06:12incredible dividend for the founders and
06:15investors and those companies isn't
06:17shared as widely as it could be with the
06:20workers and I think there are many smart
06:23ways to solve that you could increase
06:25this might be unpopular but you can
06:27increase the corporate tax rate by a
06:29very small amount and use that increase
06:32to fund you know the equivalent of 401ks
06:35for those workers or other types of
06:38necessary there all sorts of creative
06:40things that we could do that I think
06:42would not be totally opposed by industry
06:44because I think industry leaders realize
06:46that in order to have strong market
06:49places we have to have motivated workers
06:51who want to do a good job and healthy
06:54what's interesting because you bring up
06:55an interesting meme that I think applies
06:56to a lot of the startup world too like
06:58we talk a lot about you know Pat the
07:00passion that entrepreneurs bring to
07:02their jobs and um and oftentimes we talk
07:05about you know there's a thesis out
07:08there that mission driven entrepreneurs
07:10are likely to be more successful or not
07:12and I'm curious to hear your take on
07:13that I think one of the things we've
07:15seen is that the people who've been most
07:16rewarded are in industries like finance
07:19and you know I think particularly about
07:21big financial services firms that have
07:24made a killing off of essentially rents
07:27and that's not as desirable you know
07:30from a macroeconomic standpoint as
07:32incentivizing true innovation which is
07:34kind of what we do here where I'm
07:36sitting so you know I guess my view of
07:41that is that I think we we have
07:44tremendous opportunity to shift that
07:46with policy change and I think that part
07:49of the challenge that Silicon Valley has
07:51with government is that there's a
07:53perception that people just aren't very
07:55forward-thinking so instead of telling
07:57you BRR you know we should think about a
08:00different tax regime that would not be
08:02so much skin off your back you might
08:04save a lot of money in lawsuits you know
08:06and you're getting sued left right
08:07center and so we could kind of find a
08:11smart compromise and I think instead
08:13there's been so much backlash and just
08:15sort of anti uber anti gig economy
08:17sentiment that's really unproductive so
08:19my philosophy is a social entrepreneur
08:22is to try to find that happy middle
08:24ground and to you know to try to find
08:28solutions in the short term that get
08:31poor people what they need to live
08:33decent lives and that get the people who
08:35hold the reins of power what they need
08:38which is a happy and motivated workforce
08:40and a middle class that can buy their
08:42services you just called yourself a
08:44social entrepreneur and I don't know if
08:45I've heard that that often like what
08:47does that mean to be a social
08:48entrepreneur because I think a lot of
08:50people would argue that what they
08:51what they do is socially beneficial in
08:53some form I have seen a lot of companies
08:56and the valley get funded that are
08:58working on me to problems or problems
09:00that only affect extremely wealthy
09:03people and extremely wealthy countries
09:05personally that's not very compelling to
09:08me and I don't think those types of
09:10business models radically change the
09:12world however you know I think of
09:16Facebook and I think of the value that
09:18Facebook has created for a lot of our
09:20workers we were actually the first
09:21nonprofit that I know of to do
09:23longitudinal studies through Facebook
09:25because our workers log into our
09:27platform originally they had to
09:29authenticate by a Facebook platform so
09:31for us you know it's been a way to
09:33connect people like refugees in northern
09:35Uganda to our system and while I don't
09:41think that makes Mark Zuckerberg and a
09:44Facebook cofounders social entrepreneurs
09:46because I don't think their first
09:47concern with social justice or improving
09:51improving poverty outcomes per se or
09:56improving the lives of marginalized
09:58people I think that the social benefit
10:00created by Facebook has been enormous
10:02and I think that there is a new wave of
10:05companies that are resulting in some net
10:07positive effects that we didn't see you
10:10know in the prior wave of the biggest
10:12companies like Exxon and Walmart the
10:15philosophy of capitalism is that you
10:17know money flows to those entrepreneurs
10:18that do that solve social problems right
10:21because the proxy for value is is
10:22capital I think unfortunately because of
10:25market disruptions value and capital are
10:28not always correlated the things that
10:31people are willing to pay for not
10:32necessarily the most socially valuable
10:34things for various reasons and so I
10:36think that the the social entrepreneur
10:39is someone who puts the social mission
10:41above the profit motive or on par with
10:45the profit motive and I think there are
10:47ways to build companies that are both
10:49profitable and do that follow that goal
10:52but it's quite tricky to me social
10:55entrepreneurship is the middle ground
10:56between the traditional nonprofit
10:58charitable model that receives no earned
11:01revenue and the profit maximized
11:04business whose goal is to maximize
11:05profit above other concerns so where
11:09does the B Corp come in because you know
11:10I've read a lot about a couple of
11:12companies that have become certified as
11:14B corpse and there's a lot of
11:16misconceptions around it B corporations
11:19are a new class of business they exist
11:21both as a social label like fair trade
11:23and as an actual legal category of
11:26business called the benefit corporations
11:27you can incorporate as a B Corp in
11:29several states and the person who
11:31designed some of that legislation is
11:33actually our lawyer at sama group has
11:36the premise is really interesting the
11:38premise is what if we could take the
11:40triple bottom-line idea of companies
11:42that have strong social and
11:44environmental goals companies that say
11:47you know don't put toxic ingredients in
11:50their products you know pay a living
11:52wage to all of their workers participate
11:55in recycling programs have a
11:57cradle-to-cradle philosophy etc many
11:59companies have acquired tons of these
12:00certifications and what the B
12:03corporation model is is essentially an
12:05amalgam of those certifications it is a
12:07rubric for running a socially and
12:10environmentally responsible business and
12:13the idea behind B Corporation I think is
12:16you know let's go one step beyond
12:18avoiding being bad and actually embed
12:22good into our model right
12:24I think the old-school way of doing
12:26things was like okay let's mitigate risk
12:28let's avoid you know buying stuff from
12:30sweatshops because we don't want to have
12:31a bad reputation let's make sure there's
12:34no child labor in our supply chain B
12:37corpus would go one step further and say
12:38not only should there be no child labor
12:40because that's obvious and terrible but
12:43there should be impact sourcing right so
12:45let's let's go one step further and
12:47create good and my favorite examples are
12:49Method and Patagonia plumb organics a
12:52popular baby food company is a B Corp
12:54and I really think that that's the the
12:56future of business I think in the future
12:57every business will be a benefit
12:59corporation one of the memes that came
13:01up in the early in the mid 90s around
13:03some of this was you know this trend of
13:04CSR washing and green washing so how do
13:07how do they enforce that it's actually
13:09working it's pretty tough so a lot of it
13:12relies on self-reported data and because
13:15of the way they collect the data and the
13:17they ask it's it's you know not easy to
13:19fudge those numbers or make them up and
13:21and there's a regular data review
13:24process I'm not quite sure what the
13:26auditing mechanism is to be honest I
13:29think that there is an auditing
13:30mechanism I believe there is an auditing
13:31mechanism and companies who participate
13:34in the B corporation label the revenue
13:36model for B Corporation itself as an
13:38organization is essentially like a
13:40licensing fee so you pay every year to
13:43get this label and then that cost covers
13:45the certification and an auditing
13:47mechanism it is really tough and frankly
13:50like you know a lot of the critics of
13:52this way of thinking about business have
13:54said there's no possible way to measure
13:57all these different kinds of social
13:59impact and all these different kinds of
14:01environmental impact and you're
14:02comparing apples to oranges why not just
14:04use profit it's the easiest measure but
14:07I think profit is so it's so
14:10reductionist I mean just looking at that
14:12alone ignores other things that a
14:15business could be doing and frankly
14:17could be getting credit for from
14:19consumers and I think that you know one
14:22day we'll probably have more advanced
14:23holistic metrics for now we can slice it
14:26up in our case at sama group were not a
14:28B Corp we're a non-profit but we look at
14:30the outcome of poverty reductions so we
14:33look at how many people were able to
14:35move from a baseline of below the
14:37poverty line to a living wage level and
14:41how long we can sustain them there and
14:43that's our key metric for success so
14:45talk to me a little bit more about this
14:46theme of measurement because in in both
14:48the nonprofit world and the for-profit
14:50world you know we talk a lot about
14:51aligning your activities to those kinds
14:54of outcomes so for far too long and this
14:58is something that dan pilota has done an
15:00excellent TED talk on so I won't
15:01plagiarize too much of his thinking but
15:03but for far too long those of us and
15:05then on profit sector have been
15:06frustrated by the plague of being
15:10measured by overhead so in other words
15:13you know if a donor gives you a dollar
15:15they want to know what percentage of
15:16that dollar is spent on your quote
15:19unquote programs actually that's how I
15:20decide what to donate that's actually
15:22good to know and it realized I was going
15:23about it wrong so what's interesting is
15:25that that measures that that uses
15:29a proxy for efficacy and we only did
15:33that because we had to because we didn't
15:35have outcome metrics right so for
15:37example if I give you $1 to buy a
15:41cupcake I don't care how much money
15:44you're spending on flour versus sugar
15:45versus salaries I just care about having
15:48a delicious cupcake at the end right
15:49that's nice a good point any measure of
15:51success should be like okay the what is
15:54the input to output ratio so my input is
15:56$1 how does that compare to the output
15:58I'm getting am i right so it kind of
16:00reverses the model of shifts kind of
16:01shifts it Jacqueline Novogratz from the
16:04acumen fund has promoted this metric
16:06which she calls the best available
16:07charitable option so she kind of looks
16:10at what is the next best thing you could
16:12do with this same amount of money and
16:13that's a much more outcome driven
16:16approach that's what an investor would
16:18do if you're investing in a company
16:19again you don't care how they spend
16:21their cash what you care about is the
16:23return that you get at the end of the
16:24day so you know one thing we talk about
16:26a lot is the notion of failure how do
16:29that apply to the nonprofit world
16:30because it seems like it'd be almost the
16:31opposite there so it's such a good
16:34question and you want to be lean and you
16:35want to be efficient but if you starve
16:37the business you're gonna prevent it
16:39from ever reaching scale and I think
16:41most nonprofits I would venture to say
16:44are in starvation mode and they're in
16:47starvation mode largely driven by this
16:50culture of measuring them based on how
16:52much they spend on overhead versus
16:54program which is just so sad I think of
16:58one startup that raised 40 million
17:00dollars it was a photo sharing app and
17:02what's interesting is they tried
17:03something new in an arguably less
17:05critical space than say
17:08preventing sex trafficking in Benin in
17:11West Africa or eradicating childhood
17:15malaria or reducing brain stunting in
17:18refugee camps because kids don't have
17:20basic vitamin access so why are we
17:22willing to spend 40 million dollars to
17:24experiment on an app that could make our
17:27lives marginally better and this is not
17:29to criticize that spend or that app I
17:31think I use lots of apps I think they're
17:33wonderful it's just to say that we
17:35should be willing to take the same level
17:36of risk with our social investments and
17:39we should demand of them the same level
17:41of innovation and willing
17:43to learn and when we talk about failure
17:46you know when I have heard about it in
17:48the lean startup context it's it's less
17:50about celebrating failure and more about
17:52celebrating the spirit of
17:53experimentation activation right that's
17:56exactly right to me the only the only
17:59obligation you have if you take public
18:02money and spend it on a non-profit is to
18:04report back truthfully objectively into
18:07a great level of detail on what you
18:09learned what was the outcome of the
18:11experiment it's okay to spend the money
18:14but let's make sure we're learning
18:15something from it something you
18:16mentioned that's kind of interesting is
18:17where that money goes and you know one
18:19thing is you don't obviously want a
18:21startup to be building an edifice
18:23complex for their beautiful like just
18:24gorgeous office space but at the same
18:27time you have to have a decent working
18:29space so you can draw the culture of
18:31employees that want to work there and
18:33that are excited to work there and that
18:35they're enjoying their job how does that
18:37play out in the nonprofit world I'm
18:39grinning as you say this because one of
18:41our employees told me yesterday and
18:44she's like she's she's traveled
18:46throughout rural Africa and so she's a
18:48pretty gritty kind of entrepreneurial
18:50person but she saw someone pooping and
18:52peeing on our doorstep in the Mission
18:54District yesterday we're at 16th and
18:55mission really like a a locus for
18:59prostitution deals and drug deals and
19:02there's not enough police support she
19:03kind of came to me and she was like look
19:04I've kind of reached my limit of you
19:07know fecal matter on my morning commute
19:09and and I kind of need to take a break
19:11from our office for a while and that to
19:13me is the limit like you you know we
19:15hire people who are resilient so that
19:17was a little bit of a wake-up call to me
19:19that if we don't if we're not taking
19:22care of our people they can't possibly
19:24do this work that we're calling them to
19:27do which is so difficult and can be so
19:30emotionally stressful and and can you
19:32know people get people get PTSD via
19:36doing this kind of work in extremely
19:39difficult environments not necessarily
19:41in our case but you know working with
19:42some of the populations that we work
19:44with and so you need to make sure that
19:45you're taking care of them and I think
19:46those investments and people usually pay
19:49off in the long run the great challenge
19:51in nonprofits and you see this in
19:52international aid environments is that
19:54you know country governments where
19:56budget is largely composed of aid from
19:58richer countries are much more
20:00accountable to the donors than they are
20:02to their own people which is why we see
20:04these really perverse outcomes and
20:05scenarios where we think wow how is the
20:07government of XYZ developing country so
20:10bad why did they care so little about
20:12their people well it's their rational
20:14right and so I think one of the ways we
20:16solve that is for donors to kind of
20:17force that accountability by demanding
20:20and their donor reports actual feedback
20:22from the beneficiaries and having that
20:24be the primary metric that drives their
20:26follow-on gifts as opposed to what the
20:29donor thinks is important in their
20:30strategic plan or you know some other
20:33measure like overhead so how do you do
20:36that force on a source cuz I mean do you
20:38have like customer feedback mechanisms I
20:40mean do you actually go into these
20:41communities and which many of them are
20:43distributed around the world and talk to
20:45them about how the products are working
20:47for them and what are those products
20:48actually cuz we haven't even talked
20:50about that so our you know product and
20:53I'm using air quotes here our product
20:55that we're delivering is poverty
20:57alleviation through digital work so for
21:00us the most important thing is to
21:01measure how much money people are making
21:03as a result of sama source work and what
21:06happens to them when they leave sama
21:08source did they continue on that
21:09trajectory or do they fall back into
21:11poverty so that's kind of the holy grail
21:13of outcome data and then in addition to
21:16that we do qualitative surveys to find
21:19out whether this work makes people's
21:21lives better in their own terms so you
21:23might make more money but if you're
21:24making more money doing something that
21:26makes you miserable that's not serving
21:28our broader aim money as a proxy for
21:30well-being and so we do both
21:32quantitative analysis looking at actual
21:35observed income increase at the base you
21:38know so we look at people at the
21:40baseline when they come in we do
21:41detailed impact surveys and then we do
21:43that at six months in at a year you know
21:47following the start date and then a
21:49three or survey after that so we have
21:51quite a lot of numerical data we look at
21:54increases in expenditures on health care
21:57education food sanitation and housing
22:01and then we look at you know all kinds
22:05of well-being indicators for sama school
22:07our domestic program we spend a lot of
22:10getting to the trainees because we don't
22:12yet have so much outcome data because
22:16people have been out of our program for
22:19less time so we asked them do you feel
22:22like you know more about the digital
22:23economy than when you started a hundred
22:26percent of them say yes because that's
22:27what our bootcamp does but we ask some
22:29other things like are you more hopeful
22:30about your prospects for finding a job
22:32are you likely to recommend this program
22:34to a friend some of the same things that
22:36you might see in like a Net Promoter
22:38Score you also mentioned earlier that
22:40you did a longitudinal study probably
22:41one of the first of its kind so how do
22:43you how did you approach that with Summa
22:44so um I said we use Facebook for that
22:47and we basically collected people's
22:48Facebook user IDs and then use that to
22:52track them down many years later at the
22:54I think we've surveyed someone as four
22:56years so that's in our world of being
22:59only around for seven years that's some
23:01of the best data we have is like four or
23:02five years old that makes sense to
23:04actually cuz given the kind of work you
23:05do you would expect to see the biggest
23:06on-ramp in the first four years and then
23:08after that some kind of a stabilization
23:10it's not necessarily tapering but maybe
23:12just sort of a steady-state wouldn't go
23:14down but it would probably plateau
23:16plateau exactly we have we've basically
23:19seen people continue to earn more money
23:21so in continuing to increase and I don't
23:25know when that's gonna Plateau maybe
23:27we're a few years out from that what we
23:29tend to see is a pretty strong upward
23:31trajectory that mirrors what you see in
23:33the most successful workforce
23:34development programs where once you
23:36place someone into the formal economy
23:38and they get their foot in the door if
23:40they are you know hungry enough they'll
23:43keep arising and you know we look at
23:46internship programs that have been very
23:47successful in America that have done
23:48essentially that and that's kind of what
23:50we're trying to replicate overseas less
23:52through an intern model and more through
23:54this like basic digital work as your as
23:57were there any surprising findings like
23:59people say spending income on non
24:01necessities like things that are just
24:02more discretionary income definitely
24:05well one of the things that's really
24:06important to all young people around the
24:09world and our average age for some
24:11source workers is in the early 20s is
24:14image and if you come from a slum and
24:17you have been kind of marginalized your
24:21whole life and thought of as someone
24:23who didn't deserve to wear anything nice
24:25or you know look nice or wear makeup and
24:28you're bombarded with images on
24:30Billboard's and televisions we forget a
24:31lot of the young people in these urban
24:32environments are as exposed to media as
24:36we are and they're constantly seeing
24:38images of things that they can't attain
24:40which is deeply damaging and so one of
24:46the things that we've noticed is in
24:47addition to you know we have workers who
24:49will pay the school fees for younger
24:51siblings in their household if they're
24:52not yet heads of household
24:54they'll pay rent for aging parents or
24:56household expenses many of them will
24:59remit money back to rural areas where
25:01their extended family reside they might
25:03be the one you know the only person
25:05living in the slum or a few people from
25:07the family have kind of made it to the
25:08urban environment and then they'll spend
25:10money on clothing sometimes makeup
25:14getting their hair done one of our
25:16workers who comes to mind is this
25:18beautiful young woman who is an orphan
25:21and aged out of her orphanage at 18 and
25:23was on the street and at risk of
25:26prostitution and she joined samus source
25:28and started doing this work and the last
25:31time I saw her she had a great hairdo
25:33and a really snazzy outfit and she still
25:36lives in relatively modest circumstances
25:38but the way that she carries herself and
25:40the pride that she has in herself as a
25:43result of being a breadwinner who can
25:44now cover all of her own costs and
25:46support friends when they need to is
25:48it's really incredible so we think of
25:50those things as important and I feel
25:53like as long as someone's well-being is
25:55improving how they choose to spend their
25:57money is their own choice we just want
25:59to get them to the point where they're
26:00no longer wondering where their next
26:02meal is going to come from or worrying
26:05about their basic needs being met what
26:07kind of work are these workers doing I
26:10mean you've talked about your connecting
26:12the digital economy but specifically
26:15what does that mean so we prepare people
26:18for two types of work with samasource
26:20which is our work program we actually
26:23win contracts from large companies
26:25generally tech companies with companies
26:28that have a lot of data that they need
26:29to process and we perform services
26:32ranging from image tagging to content
26:34review content Madhuri
26:36generation basically discrete tasks that
26:41can be done with some training that need
26:44a high quality level so for example one
26:48of our best clients is Getty Images we
26:50do a large range of image tagging
26:55everything from tagging pictures of
26:57celebrities to you know informing Getty
26:59what might not be in pictures when
27:01something should be there etc and really
27:05essential to monetizing images is
27:07knowing what's in the photograph and
27:09it's still pretty hard for computers to
27:11understand categories like dogs or trees
27:15or you know lamps and so we still need
27:19humans to do some of that it's easier
27:20for computers to identify specific
27:22people we're finding a lot of
27:25opportunity in the machine learning
27:26space that's actually kind of
27:28counterintuitive because it feels like
27:29machine learning would disintermediate
27:31what you guys are doing it is it's kind
27:34of strange that we're doing work that is
27:36going to land us it's gonna put us out
27:40of a job in a few years but we also
27:41think it's very important to be at the
27:43forefront and there's pretty wide
27:44spectrum of evolution so there are many
27:47companies that have data that don't have
27:49machine learning teams or don't have
27:51higher-level engineering teams that just
27:54need people to process this and I think
27:55that will be true for quite some time
27:57the most advanced companies that have
27:59the biggest R&D budgets are using our
28:01services to teach their algorithms to do
28:03things like self-driving cars auto
28:07detection of things and images all sorts
28:10of really interesting applications and
28:12it's it's tremendously motivating for
28:13our workers to know that they're part of
28:15some of the most cutting-edge software
28:17in the world in the US and now in Kenya
28:21we have a second program called sama
28:23school which trains people to get jobs
28:25in the digital economy beyond those that
28:29we hire for in sama sores so it's a much
28:31broader pool of people that we're
28:32targeting with that we're we're aiming
28:34to sign up 10,000 people to that
28:36training program this year so it's like
28:37a skills training program for people who
28:39aren't like safe tech-savvy or it's a
28:41it's a doughnut code exactly it's a
28:44program for injecting them into the
28:49and so we train people to harness the
28:51skills they already have if you can
28:53drive a car you can make money through
28:55Burt lift or a number of different car
28:57sharing services if you can walk a dog
29:01you can make money through a number of
29:03different websites if you can paint a
29:06house etc so there are all kinds of
29:09offline jobs that you can do that are
29:11mediated by technology that require a
29:13level of proficiency and marketing
29:16ability to get money and then there are
29:19all kinds of jobs that are intermediated
29:21through these platforms that are online
29:24jobs so things like data entry things
29:28like social media marketing things that
29:30can be done remotely that you can find
29:32through a gig economy website such as
29:35upwork so the sama school part of our
29:39work appeals to people who can find
29:41their own projects but just need that
29:44extra push to understand how to do it
29:46and we found tremendous demand for this
29:48program we're the only nonprofit we're
29:50the only organization that we know of
29:52offering job training for the digital
29:53economy that teaches low-income people
29:56how to take advantage of all of these
29:58new resources are there any plans to
30:00sort of spin that a little bit more
30:01further up the skill stack because um
30:04you know it's not so much a hierarchical
30:06thing like these are lower or less
30:07valued skills but in terms of the skills
30:10that have the maximum value accrued to
30:12them do you have any thoughts on that
30:14for the school in the program you've
30:16seen it there's a huge number of
30:17organizations working on coding and we
30:20thought there was a big gap beneath that
30:22because to really make money to make a
30:24living wage as a coder you there's quite
30:28an intense level of training that's
30:30necessary and the feedback we've
30:31received is that a lot of people who go
30:33through these coding programs especially
30:35if they're light-touch don't actually
30:36end up with a job so we thought if we
30:39can be the entry point then they can
30:41finish sama schools start making some
30:43money then sign up for the coding
30:44program and really be able to invest in
30:46it and improve their skills essentially
30:48what we're teaching people in sama
30:50school is how to learn through the
30:52internet if that makes sense no that
30:54makes great sense and I'm actually
30:55really relieved to hear you say this I
30:57think it's incredibly important to have
30:58the skills just like digital literacy is
31:01as important as reading and writing
31:02some of the other skills that you have
31:04as is empathy and other important things
31:06but we do have a tendency I think to
31:08forget exactly what you're talking about
31:10the sort of gap between if people have
31:12gone through that kind of a coding
31:13program or education program and then
31:16people who have had some of the more
31:19automated jobs that are you know getting
31:21taken over by robots literally so having
31:23that address is kind of great so I guess
31:25one I want here one thought from you
31:28about remote work the nature remote work
31:30because we have a lot of people that
31:31probably have distributed workforces and
31:33there's a lot of debates about whether
31:34that's a good thing or a bad thing and
31:36I'm not so interested in the value
31:37judgments of that but I am curious to
31:39hear your thoughts about how that's been
31:42changing because you've been doing this
31:43not for seven years I think I met you
31:44five years ago and it's changed a lot
31:47and the world has changed a lot the
31:49nature of the work the availability the
31:51platforms what are your thoughts on the
31:53evolution of remote work so in the most
31:57optimistic sense the biggest problem
32:00with capitalism is that money can move
32:02freely across borders but people cannot
32:04and the internet economy completely
32:07turns out on its head and that was the
32:10thesis of Tom Friedman's book and that's
32:11yeah the most optimistic lens on remote
32:14work the most pessimistic lens is the
32:17farther we are away from the people who
32:21generally speaking the least emotionally
32:25and morally connected we feel to them
32:27and the farthest the farther they are
32:29outside of our circle of empathy and
32:31that typically leads to bad outcomes I
32:33mean I think about factory farming if
32:35we're familiar with the way that our
32:36meat was produced nobody would want to
32:38touch a piece of pork in America average
32:40people would find it horrifying
32:42similarly average people found
32:44horrifying the factory collapse in
32:47Bangladesh that killed a thousand people
32:48because of completely negligent you know
32:51building standards that could have been
32:53avoided and saved the lives of a lot of
32:55very poor women right and most Americans
32:58would find that appalling and would
32:59never allow that to happen in their
33:01backyard or you know with their
33:03knowledge and so sometimes when we move
33:06production far away from us we we reduce
33:10the amount of oversight and control and
33:12empathy ultimately that we have for the
33:14people working there and that's about
33:15thing the beauty of technology-driven
33:17remote work is that we still retain that
33:20connection and empathy to the worker
33:22because we can communicate with them
33:24they can be our friend on Facebook I
33:26love that my lyft driver sees my
33:28facebook profile and that I regard that
33:31person as a peer and not some sort of
33:33subservient worker and that you know if
33:36I need to make extra money I could be a
33:37lyft driver and it kind of levels the
33:40playing field and I've seen this really
33:42interesting dynamic through digital work
33:44platforms where especially when when
33:47workers can rate the employer there's a
33:49level of transparency and sort of
33:51connection that happens that's an
33:53ultimately really good thing for the
33:56worker so I think that the evolution of
33:59platforms that really respect the worker
34:02that allow the worker to rate the
34:03employer that rapport transparently on
34:06income data that connect people to
34:08information about benefits and training
34:10I feel like that's a world in which we
34:12want to live we want to live in ya know
34:15I do too and I would even argue that
34:17we're so early on that because when you
34:19say platforms I would also argue for
34:21mediums because when I think of things
34:23like VR and the ability to connect more
34:26emotionally in a way that you can't with
34:28something you're talking to over the
34:29Internet are on the phone that's
34:31distributed in a distributed workforce
34:33scenario you can do a lot of different
34:35things that we have never been able to
34:36do before so I think that does add a lot
34:38of interesting value for sure and I the
34:41other thing I will just mention because
34:43I feel so strongly about this like
34:45generally you know when people have
34:47something to hide they don't welcome
34:49that transparency and again I think of
34:51factory farming and the utter refusal of
34:53factory farms to put any kind of
34:56transparency around the way things are
34:58done and you know I think about police
35:01brutality cases and the demand for body
35:03cameras technology can help us build
35:06greater empathy through you know giving
35:09us a clear view of what's happening on
35:11the other side of what we choose to buy
35:12so one final question then um I'm gonna
35:16actually channel my friend Bianca here
35:18who is talking about this and as a theme
35:20that she cares about but how do you
35:22think about building trust in these
35:25communities that you are working that
35:26are actually workers in
35:28I'm a source platform I think it can be
35:32difficult for outsiders to come in you
35:34know especially when I think about
35:35communities like like Mathari one of the
35:37the informal urban settlements we work
35:39with in Kenya where people have seen NGO
35:41after NGO and there's a there they're
35:43jaded with us I think there's a sense of
35:46possibility because we deliver jobs and
35:48that makes you pretty popular in a place
35:51but how do they know it's just because
35:52previous people have succeeded at it or
35:55we now have an alumni community of
35:57around 2,000 people in Nairobi and so a
35:59lot of our workers recruit their friends
36:01and when we screw up you know there was
36:04a an issue where one of our delivery
36:06centers wasn't paying the wages we
36:08thought they were paying to workers we
36:09found out about it they were posting
36:10stuff on Facebook you know I got emails
36:12about it part of the beauty of working
36:15in the Internet economy is that you can
36:17communicate directly with the worker
36:19which you can't it's like if I buy a
36:20t-shirt made in a factory in Bangladesh
36:23I would never know with no idea how the
36:25woman who made it was treated inspector
36:26number six sticker on your shirt exactly
36:29at in the best-case scenario and so um
36:31so we encourage our workers to
36:34communicate directly with us in fact I'm
36:36going to Nairobi on Monday to launch a
36:38new center with 70 workers may have
36:40invited all of our alumni in the area to
36:42come and I fully expects them to come to
36:44me and criticize what we're doing or
36:47give me some feedback and that's
36:48important because we don't know what
36:50we're doing wrong if we don't hear from
36:51them and I think I think the future of
36:55full and philanthropic lis funded
36:58organizations like ours I won't see
36:59charities but the future of social
37:01enterprises and nonprofits is really
37:04reporting out on what the beneficiaries
37:07think not just what we think is good for
37:09them when it goes back to your point
37:10about even that's the same community or
37:11getting feedback from in the first place
37:13for the product I'd love to keep talking
37:15about this I think we can talk about so
37:16much more but this is all we have time
37:18for thanks for your time Lila this is
37:20wonderful and thanks for being an easy
37:22City podcast thank you so much
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