00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael
00:03Copeland the key to any great company is
00:05the people but if you don't put some
00:07real thought into hiring if you don't
00:09develop a philosophy early around how
00:12you're going to compensate your
00:13employees you're going to be in a world
00:15of hurt later says Shannon Schultz who
00:18heads up a 16 ZZZ people practice you
00:21don't build a product without having a
00:23product roadmap right and so if you're
00:26gonna build a company you've got to have
00:28a like a roadmap on how you're gonna
00:30attract the best talent and how you're
00:32gonna retain the best talent
00:34compensation from salary to different
00:37forms of equity is the topic of this
00:39segment of the a 16 z podcast for the
00:42founders of many fast-growing companies
00:44it's a bit of an afterthought says the
00:46other expert on the pod Thanh Nguyen
00:48when you're at this kind of high
00:51velocity hiring rate I think people
00:55forget about what's my strategy and what
00:59direction am i pointing at because
01:01they're solving for very short-term
01:03needs of that recruitment initial
01:05recruitment process and that candidate
01:07saying well I've got so-and-so
01:09willing to pay me XYZ and you're you're
01:12in that trench you're trying to fight to
01:14win that and then you look down the road
01:17you're a hundred people 80 people and
01:20you really don't have a core essence of
01:23how you've paid your people today we are
01:26talking about compensation and to help
01:28us do that we have Shannon Schultz who
01:30heads up our people practices here at
01:32the firm Shannon welcome Thank You Anton
01:35nuran who is another compensation expert
01:37Tom welcome thank you ok compensation in
01:41this job market where people are
01:43fighting to hire people
01:44I thought you compensate people by
01:48paying them well market rate if not
01:50better you hand out options if you're a
01:52founder of a company that's what you do
01:54and you're off and running what's wrong
01:56with that approach I think if you take a
01:59step back and think about compensation
02:01in general you know it's a it's a hot
02:03topic a lot of people talk about it so
02:05many people are focusing on the short
02:07term problem which actually is your long
02:09term strategy but it's hiring people how
02:12do I compensate them
02:13how do I pull them from big companies
02:15how do I pull them from their comp
02:16packages that they currently have and
02:18make them a part of this team but when
02:22you're thinking about that you have to
02:24think short term and long term okay so
02:26so paint the picture for us when you
02:29have people come in and talk to you or
02:30you go in and talk to them because
02:31they're not quite doing it right
02:33I've started a company in that first
02:36phase what am I facing down and what am
02:38I not doing correctly so I don't know if
02:41it's not doing correctly or thinking of
02:43right and I and I would say that's
02:45exactly it it's what am I not thinking
02:46about and so if you think about and you
02:48know I feel really fortunate in that I
02:51get to see seed founders I get to see
02:53folks who are a B round and then I also
02:55get to work with gross companies and so
02:58if you if you look at the the picture
03:00folks are they start the process by I
03:04need market data to hire these three
03:07people that are actually going to build
03:08the first version of the product right
03:11and that's a very simple process
03:13you look at market data and from a cash
03:16perspective you have your every founder
03:19has their their philosophy around the
03:21cash perspective because cash is is
03:24usually tight where they're not thinking
03:27as much long term is the equity piece
03:29mm-hmm the upside you know you join my
03:32company now you're taking a lot of risk
03:34you're not gonna have a lot of cash what
03:36am I doing with regards to equity and so
03:39I would say you know at that stage you
03:40probably don't have to have a
03:41compensation philosophy but then as you
03:44start scaling as an organization that's
03:47when you really have to think about how
03:49am I going to hire people how am I going
03:51to be consistent with my equity and how
03:53am I going to retain these people given
03:55that I have the least amount of footage
03:58on each person that I'm bringing on
04:00board and giving equity to on how
04:02they're actually going to perform inside
04:04my company my footage you mean like we
04:06are a football team and I'm looking at
04:08the game footage correct I got you okay
04:11Todd and I think to to add to that once
04:15you are in this kind of growth hiring
04:18phase you're asked to hire a lot of
04:21different talent you know and that
04:24diversity means there is dive
04:27in PEI there's diversity and assessment
04:30there's diversity and seniority
04:34contribution level and when you're at
04:36this kind of high velocity hiring rate I
04:41think people forget about what's my
04:44strategy and what direction am i
04:47pointing at because they're solving for
04:48very short-term needs of that
04:51recruitment initial recruitment process
04:53right and that candidate saying well
04:55I've got so-and-so willing to pay me XYZ
04:58and you're you're in that trench you're
05:00trying to fight to win that and then you
05:03look down the road you're a hundred
05:05people 80 people and you really don't
05:08have a core essence of how you've paid
05:11your people so again to be a little bit
05:14specific then in that first phase it
05:16really is okay how much I kind of am I
05:18gonna pay these people you know to lure
05:19them in so this first handful equity is
05:23sort of part of the package obviously
05:25but that's a simpler calculus I guess
05:28with fewer and fewer people then the
05:31philosophy kicks in when you like you
05:32say Tom hit whatever thirty forty sixty
05:36people actually so I've been and we've
05:38been recommending for companies that
05:40they really start thinking about the
05:41types of folks and the types of comp
05:44packages they're going to be giving
05:45people when there's start as soon as
05:47they're gonna hit high-growth so when
05:49you have a handful of people that you're
05:51hiring it's very easy to stay on top of
05:53it you know I had a conversation with a
05:55company yesterday and I realized they
05:58kept referring to all we want everyone
06:01to be equal and I said it's not about
06:04being equal it's about being consistent
06:06right so knowing what type of people
06:09you're hiring what the criticality of
06:11those roles are for the type of people
06:13you're hiring and differentiating on
06:16your compensation model for the
06:19criticality to the organization and like
06:22how much they're going to contribute to
06:23the organization well so let's talk
06:25about the different philosophies that
06:26are out there and then if what are the
06:29signals that maybe like you say if you
06:31aren't consistent this will happen on
06:34the other end so but let's talk about
06:36philosophies first well I think some
06:38philosophies I mean that's a
06:40that's a big and broad term and it
06:42scares some some folks when you talk
06:44about that especially companies are in
06:48in kind of that earlier stage and and
06:51they're growing because we don't want it
06:52to be onerous the philosophy in my mind
06:55philosophy is about the direction or the
06:59intent from which you're gonna grow and
07:02philosophy actually helps you kind of
07:07fundamentally put some quantitative data
07:10behind what you're doing right so when
07:13we talk about philosophy the the first
07:14line is really around pay positioning
07:17within the the vehicles of pay that we
07:19typically see and that is cash that's
07:22cash plus bonus I mean salary plus bonus
07:24and then typically equity in the form of
07:27what we see I mean I right now we're
07:29really talking about benefits the other
07:32perks but those are really the core
07:33components that that we're always
07:35addressing but establishing or even
07:39understanding your market positioning to
07:41what your define competitive you know
07:43sample group is or your proxy that you
07:46compare against helps you ground from a
07:50numbers perspective how you're gonna
07:53measure where you're at not doing so
07:56will really confuse confuse kind of how
08:02you think about compensation so you have
08:04to take a broader picture about you know
08:06the size of company you're at the type
08:10of business kind of the product market
08:12fit your evolution how quickly you've
08:14gotten to revenue etc and really be
08:17thoughtful about that as you compare to
08:19a data set that makes you comfortable
08:21from which you can start to develop some
08:26communications and actually a point of
08:28reference to your employee base that
08:29says hey we've been thoughtful about
08:31this we understand where where we're at
08:33right now here's where we're going and
08:35here are the companies we want to be
08:37like and this is what they're paying
08:39we're gonna step function into that
08:41right and we're not going to be
08:43disingenuous in saying we're gonna be
08:45there right so that level of
08:48understanding needs to be in place and
08:50you can't get to that level
08:51understanding unless you have some good
08:54so that data comes from comparing
08:56yourself to the competition from your
08:57own internal obviously checks and
09:00balances and what you have already yeah
09:02and there's obviously other you know
09:05published surveys or there's you know
09:07with with our firm we sample all of our
09:10clients and we have the detail and data
09:12behind that so a lot of our clients that
09:15come to us and a lot of a16 companies
09:18come to us we're helping them try to
09:21position where they are in the
09:24marketplace and helping them establish
09:25that it's just baseline framework
09:28sometimes it's a lot more complex it
09:30depends on you know obviously the
09:32maturity of the organization and and the
09:35understanding of the leadership but you
09:37know at a baseline we definitely need to
09:39extract what that market level is
09:42companies all have reputations I'm just
09:45wondering you know when I am a young
09:46company you want to be competitive with
09:48all your competitors can this make you
09:51more competitive and and if so how so we
09:56talked to you know I get to work with
09:58the companies on the recruiting side as
10:00well as on compensation and and
10:02everything HR related one of the things
10:04that we always share with our
10:07entrepreneurs is it's really really
10:09important that you can have a
10:10conversation about how you are building
10:13out and being consistent across the
10:15organization from a compensation
10:17perspective people join your company
10:19wanting to know that if they perform and
10:21they do a great job that they will be
10:24so if you actually and you know if you
10:27if you put in place a philosophy you can
10:29actually speak to rewarding your top
10:32performers and that's something that's a
10:34huge selling point in the recruiting
10:36process now people want to know that
10:39that's going to happen for them one of
10:40the things I wanted to comment on really
10:42quick and when you were talking about
10:44philosophy we also come across people
10:46really confusing philosophy and process
10:48right so when you start talking to a
10:51company about you should really think
10:53about your compensation philosophy a lot
10:55of times they're thinking this is going
10:56to be a process they have to put in
10:58place and it's not it's it's confusing
11:00the to and the philosophy is what
11:03actually helps you with consistency
11:04across the organization types of
11:08we wanted to be equal we want to be
11:09consistent we want to be the best or the
11:11highest paid in the marketplace we want
11:13to I don't know attract the cheapest
11:16people well that's that's general
11:19philosophy I think you know part of the
11:21philosophy if you start to break that
11:22down it's it is really hey from a cash
11:26perspective this is objectively where
11:28we're at in the business we we want a
11:30kind of goal for being in the market
11:32median of this data set in terms of data
11:35of cash say and you know maybe within
11:39this engineering function or product
11:42function we actually have to go higher
11:44on our philosophy and pay at the 75th or
11:48the 80th within different pay components
11:51and by identifying or actually putting
11:54us a flag post that says we're gonna pay
11:56there what you're doing is developing a
11:59communication string with your employees
12:02that says guys here's what how we're
12:05paying here's how we're looking at data
12:06and the data set that that we're looking
12:09at at the 75th percentile or the 85th
12:11percentile says a let's just
12:14hypothetically a you know senior
12:17engineer with approximately said years
12:20of experience is gonna make around this
12:22at the upper quartile of this payback
12:25right right so you know you're not just
12:27saying that you're actually taking some
12:30tangible data now you know everybody's
12:32gonna have their own opinions on where
12:34the data comes from but that's the
12:37stance you have a platform from which
12:40you're using and that's going to evolve
12:42right the other thing that it allows you
12:45to do is it allows you like keep going
12:47back to the word consistency because
12:49everyone it's so transparent like
12:51everyone's very transparent you know
12:53back when I was running HR at ops where
12:55I don't think our employees talked a lot
12:57to each other about what they were
12:58making and so yeah it's different about
13:05what they're making open-source
13:07confidence I say everybody knows
13:08everybody's right and so but the thing
13:11is is if you have a strategy and a
13:14belief on what you're paying for
13:16different roles different people in the
13:18organization you can stand behind that
13:21becomes and asks you a question right
13:23right and I think that's that's really
13:26really important because the one thing
13:28you don't want to do is you don't want
13:31your employees to feel in the recruiting
13:33process had they negotiated better they
13:36would have a better calm package got it
13:38right you want them to feel that you're
13:40consistent and if you've actually
13:41thought about compensation when you're
13:44recruiting someone you can save point
13:46link to them this is what I'm paying
13:48this is this is what the next person who
13:50comes in who's maybe even a better
13:52negotiator than you is gonna make this -
13:54right I'm very consistent because I've
13:57looked at it I've put thought into it
13:59and this is market for these roles even
14:02if I'm not paying top in the market or
14:05in the top quartile or whatever I do
14:07feel like there's other things that
14:09companies can offer them right you know
14:10you're working on a tough problem you're
14:12working on something that will see the
14:13light of day you are working on
14:15something will help you know half of
14:18humanity I think it still has to boil
14:21down to that I mean compensation is
14:24compensation right there's I always say
14:26to people there's always gonna be
14:27somebody that's gonna pay more yeah and
14:29there's always gonna be somebody that's
14:31gonna pay a lot more but if you also
14:33look at attrition data people don't
14:34leave a company because of calm ah
14:36people leave a company for many other
14:39reasons right they'll use that they're
14:41gonna make more at their next company
14:42but it is usually there's a different if
14:46you actually scratch at the surface you
14:48will find out there's a different reason
14:49they're leaving look they have to feel
14:51that they're being paid fairly that
14:53means they have to be feel that they're
14:54being paid fairly in the market and
14:57against their peers and this is where if
14:59you have a philosophy you're answering
15:01both of those but then and we're
15:04assuming that the compensation
15:05discussion is important and actually the
15:07recruiting process the compensation
15:09discussion is the last piece of it well
15:11it should be the first piece and then at
15:12the closing the candidate which means
15:14that they're interested in your company
15:15because of either other kick-ass
15:18engineers they're gonna be working with
15:19an incredible product that they like
15:22believe in or you know a market that is
15:25like going crazy like all of those
15:28things will actually dictate if you are
15:30going to be able to even get to a
15:32compensation discussion with someone
15:33right so that's where it's it's
15:35being consistent and being and doing it
15:38right when you get to an offer and lack
15:41of consistency what are some sure signs
15:44that you are lacking consistency well I
15:47I think that comes up pretty evident
15:49I mean after let's just call it that
15:51honeymoon phase of a year if people feel
15:55like there's inconsistencies and and
15:57just what Shannon and said if we can't
16:00communicate about in a transparent
16:02manner about how we pay people it's
16:06clear I see so many situations clients
16:09that come to me and they really have
16:11really pressing issues around turnover
16:14and around people not happy and they
16:18cite that it's around compensation but
16:21you dig into it and they don't have very
16:25strong communication about their their
16:29ability to really address success really
16:35kind of be thoughtful about
16:37conversations and it you know and you
16:40talk to the the actual the actual
16:42employee it's like well I think I got a
16:45raw deal I didn't ago she ate early
16:47enough and and that's usually compared
16:50to colleague Y who as you say everybody
16:52knows what those people are making
16:54anyway right now they're compensated
16:56exactly well okay so let's shift gears
16:58to equity we talked a little you know
17:00we've talked about the salary part how
17:03you know startups and technology in
17:06particular have this wonderful way of
17:09compensating people through stock and
17:11yet right now that it's sort of fraught
17:14where people are trying to figure out
17:15the most equitable way to do equity how
17:18do you guys approach it and how should
17:19people start to think about it so two
17:21things one it's really important to be
17:24able to differentiate when you're
17:26speaking equity on what makes your
17:27company special or what makes your
17:30company you know the place that somebody
17:32wants to go but it's also and that goes
17:35down to it's not about you usually can't
17:38compare equity packages like you can't
17:41look across five different offers and
17:43say they're all the same offer compared
17:45to the amount of equity you're getting
17:47if it's at a different stage you might
17:49get a lower equity package but it's hot
17:51you know same value but the biggest
17:53piece for founder's is to really be able
17:56to sell what the equity piece could be
17:59and why it's so important and what your
18:01contributions are going to be in order
18:04to make it a huge value right because
18:06equity is sort of worth noting at the
18:09and everybody hopes that it'll be worth
18:11something it's all assumptive and i
18:13think i mean it's it's funny long-term
18:16equity in in my piano Kisan long-term
18:18equity and what i'm seeing in the
18:20marketplace is this really shift of
18:23long-term equity being shoved into kind
18:26of short-term incentive and I don't
18:29think that's fair for that vehicle call
18:32me old school but your old school it I
18:36mean we talk about the the growth and
18:38the development of a company and what it
18:40takes to to really drive that enterprise
18:44value and it takes a lot of time you're
18:48not going to turn over a company and and
18:52take them public typically in in four
18:55years time so I think that message you
18:58know again with kind of the positioning
19:02and and how people are thinking about
19:03just the exuberance of the exits and the
19:07the preferred values these days have has
19:10really put a cloudy I feel like it's put
19:13up cloudy kind of definition on what
19:18what people should be expecting how do
19:20you advise founders to then talk about
19:23equity in their companies because again
19:26most people despite all the great
19:29stories that you hear where you know
19:31Facebook folks or whomever just you know
19:34made a boatload of money most people
19:36don't from equity most employees don't
19:39right and so how do you have a sort of
19:41start off an honest conversation as a
19:42founder about the value of your equity
19:45and and ideally it is worth a lot at the
19:47end but again Shannon you said you don't
19:51have footage of the people going in but
19:52how do you create value how do you sell
19:54that to these potential employees well I
19:58think it's it's you know it's
20:00a piece of the compensation package that
20:02somebody's getting and so regardless of
20:04how much they're actually getting you
20:06could get one stock option or you could
20:08get you know a thousand stock options
20:09are ten thousand or a hundred thousand
20:11stock options you're still selling the
20:13value of the company and hence the value
20:16of the the stock option the same way
20:18which is today we're here and our goal
20:22is to be you know way up here right and
20:25so everything like we're giving you a
20:28piece of the company because we value
20:30what you're going to contribute and
20:32here's the milestones we need to get
20:34through and as you as you contribute to
20:37those milestones you'll see the value of
20:39the stock option increase you know and
20:42that's that's what equity is used for -
20:45you know it's it's a it's a an extra
20:48kicker to your you know your base if you
20:51have a bonus all the other perks you
20:53have it's something that's on top of it
20:56if we actually realize the value of what
20:58we think the company is going to be but
21:00time to your point you do you need to be
21:02explicit about this being a sort of a
21:04long-term you know play well III think
21:08you have to be kind of really genuine
21:10and and try to be as authentic as
21:13possible in terms of the growth and what
21:15it's going to take I mean it's clearly
21:16about execution but it's also if you're
21:20able to message the fact that hey what
21:24will call the new hire grant or the mega
21:26grant is here to get you locked in but
21:29the real value for us and the real value
21:31and the support that we're going to
21:33provide is as we increase our value and
21:37as we grow you are gonna be rewarded for
21:41that growth not only initially but we've
21:43got to develop plans that that make you
21:46want to stay here right right and I
21:50we're not or entrepreneurs are not
21:54thinking about strategizing and building
21:57plans that allow them to lock in that
22:00employee six years down the road they're
22:03just trying to say I I'm solving for
22:06that mega grant that four year new hire
22:10and let's see what we can do right you
22:13have to be thoughtful about that footage
22:16if you're performing we're gonna reward
22:19and we're gonna reward frequently and I
22:21think that is a clear message that gets
22:23people in the alignment
22:25I think compensation is it has to
22:28influence people you know and you know
22:31to a certain extent and it has to
22:34support that direction that you're
22:35trying to influence them in and you know
22:38sum up just so many times we're just not
22:40being thoughtful about that and we're
22:42just addressing a very short-term or you
22:47know front-end issues are there are
22:49there are types of equity grants in that
22:51sort of long-term retention approach
22:54that you're seeing out there that you
22:56know they're it's not one size fits all
22:58but what are you seeing out there and
23:00how is it working for folks well I I
23:03don't even know that it's it's it's not
23:06even there's a whole bunch of different
23:08things that are going on in the market
23:09right now you know there's a ton there's
23:12lots of companies that are moving to RS
23:13use our shoes restricted stock units
23:16okay and how does that behave
23:17differently than straight up equity well
23:20their present value shares versus
23:23options are appreciation it's a contract
23:26so you're actually you know you're
23:29gaining essentially that intrinsic value
23:32right and there's tax implications yeah
23:35exactly for the employee when it's
23:38granted but I think it's regardless of
23:40what vehicle you're using it's going
23:42back to planning to retain your
23:45employees so as we were just saying you
23:48put all of this work into the front end
23:50issue which is identifying and finding
23:52the right talent depending on how well
23:55that person does making sure that you
23:57are piling on stock afterwards so and
23:59that's it that's part of a budgeting
24:01process right how do you how do you keep
24:03enough stock or options on the side so
24:06that as people start to perform you can
24:09really pile on so that they don't they
24:11don't think about moving on to do
24:13something different and this is where I
24:15say you know we spend so much time
24:17thinking about like what are we going to
24:18give people when we hire them less time
24:20about how do we continue rewarding them
24:22and there are many times
24:24you really don't know how well
24:26somebody's gonna do for you in the
24:27company until you get there and you
24:29could have you could hire like the best
24:31architect who has built like three
24:34incredible products you could hire them
24:37into your organization and they could
24:39just not gel with the rest of the type
24:41of people you're hiring and they they
24:44just don't work out and so if they
24:46decide you know if you decide to go
24:48separate ways or they decide to leave
24:49there's usually a significant amount of
24:51options that's going with them and so
24:54that's what I mean by you don't have
24:55good footage on how people are gonna
24:57actually do in your organization until
25:01they start working in your organization
25:03so it sounds again like this is more
25:05about consistency as well I mean equity
25:08is as well my new favorite word
25:10consistency consistency
25:11say it with me do you have any like
25:14particular than thoughts on rsu's versus
25:17options I mean if RS use are all the
25:19rage you know is there any reason to
25:21think about one versus another well I I
25:24think yeah there was a lot of
25:27discussions and I think it part and
25:31parcel it's due to the competition right
25:34I mean there's always the notion of look
25:36I have to compete with Facebook have to
25:38peek with Google and their equity is in
25:41RS use so how do I compete with that
25:44and that's a struggle for in the day
25:47it's a struggle for any company
25:48competing with such a large enterprise
25:51yeah such such value and it you know I
25:55think this kind of goes back to the
25:58broader state of there's a lot of
26:00private companies that are worth north
26:02of the billion dollars you know a
26:04billion dollars used to be like a
26:06significant public company right and
26:08these are private companies so now
26:11you're and and generally speaking RS use
26:14certainly come about for a lot of
26:17reasons a you know you've gotten to a
26:20level of real value that's been dearest
26:25where it makes sense to move to to that
26:29model right but with that said you're
26:32also very close to an IPO or some kind
26:35event right but we're seeing that pushed
26:39back and what's causing a lot of I think
26:45consternation for me as in talking the
26:47Shannon a lot of times is like it's
26:50sometimes a seven to 10-year run before
26:53you're looking at an IPO and now you're
26:55forcing kind of a present value equity
26:58form that has toxic implications on
27:03employees and it's you know you're not
27:06seeing the exit event as engineer right
27:11in the near horizon right whereas
27:13options you know it's still more
27:15flexible from from an employee
27:17perspective right they can you know once
27:19they vest they can either choose just
27:22exercise exercise it or not right but
27:25also it's also the point of there's
27:29still a lot of execution that needs to
27:31get accomplished we're not there yet
27:33right and I think that's really
27:36important that's the bit one of the
27:38biggest messages that I have for all my
27:41startups it's that I work with its you
27:45know its long-term equity and the
27:49horizon is still far out and there's
27:53still a lot of appreciation that you can
27:56arrive from an equity perspective and I
27:58don't know if this influences how people
28:01discuss where they're at and what they
28:03think in terms of how quickly they're
28:06gonna see you know liquidation or not
28:10but I kind of sense that there is this
28:13notion that there are s use we should be
28:17able to you know liquidate them and get
28:21a piece of them sooner rather than later
28:24and I just think that's just a mixed
28:26message because there's we're paying
28:28such high premiums to get into the
28:31investments these days and it goes back
28:33to our discussion a couple of weeks ago
28:35that there's a level of execution that
28:37you have to live up to to get to that
28:39valuation right right and that
28:42communication doesn't necessarily set in
28:45with your your employee base
28:48what if the market changes what changes
28:54if anything about what we've discussed
28:56this idea of philosophy and consistency
28:59because I think the market will change
29:01right at some point but then what what
29:04doesn't change and and and I want to ask
29:06that because I think that's the most
29:07important thing that people should walk
29:09away with maybe I mean regardless if the
29:12market changes you know we might see we
29:14might see salaries come down we might
29:16see you know things change a little bit
29:18I we might see people stay at they're
29:20kind of the companies that they're at
29:21longer but I don't I don't know that it
29:24changes this discussion because this
29:27discussion is really about you know
29:30building the company and building it
29:31right and part of that is thinking about
29:33your compensation strategy I do think
29:37you know if the market you know adjusts
29:39a little bit we could see less
29:41discussion around you know the value of
29:44options yeah and this happened right so
29:46if you look back in you know the early
29:492000s like nobody was really thinking
29:51nobody was negotiating options for a
29:53while no it was like I need to be paid
29:55cash I don't really care about options
29:57and then you know it started to it yeah
30:00it started to creep up again and then
30:03you know in the late late you know
30:062008-2009 those dates like things
30:08started changing again and once again
30:10options were not like a big discussion
30:13right now it's a bit it's it's a great
30:17market and you know there's been huge
30:19successes and people are really excited
30:20about it and people want to have a piece
30:22of the company that they're building who
30:24knows if things are just like options
30:27might not become you know as much of the
30:30competitive offer it goes back to cash
30:32again right who knows but again it
30:34sounds to me like and to sum up a little
30:36bit that the same approach applies you
30:38know you need to have this philosophy
30:39you need to have the data to know which
30:41bands you're going to sit in and perform
30:44in and and kind of aspire to you need to
30:47keep an eye on the long-term for
30:49retention and understand that execution
30:51means kind of a long term horizon view
30:54and then I guess be willing to adjust as
30:58the market adjusts a little bit
30:59and it's you know if you take a step
31:00back and you think about you know I'm
31:03not a very technical person but you
31:05don't build a product without having a
31:07product roadmap right right and so if
31:10you're gonna build a company you've got
31:12to have a like a roadmap on how you're
31:14gonna attract the best talent and how
31:17you're going to retain the best talent
31:18and this is one of those tools that if
31:20you build a really good consistent
31:22roadmap that's going to have changes as
31:24you get you know customer feedback and
31:26you're gonna get features that you add
31:27here and hopefully you never have to
31:28take any of the features away but like
31:30that's going to keep you going in an up
31:33market in a down market because your
31:35employees are gonna know you've thought
31:36a lot about it and you're consistent
31:39word-of-the-day consistent Shannon thank
31:43you so much Anton thank you
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